Buff changes inc perhaps... - Page 2

Nazo · 06-20-2005, 08:50 PM

A lot of us higher level guardians are seeing that with certain easily obtainable combinations, mobs simply can't hit us. This is wrong. It's not just being overpowered, it's to the point where you could say we are broken. It's bad for the overall health for the game. I think the fact that your not seeing a huge outcry IS because a large number of people see this.

Now as for the personal boredom in raids I do have to agree. After all is said in done; after these combat changes have rolled around, people in complete fabled gear, with all master spells, should find 99% of the current content trivial. Congrats, you are ready for the expansion.

Yeah Exactly !

We got an expansion coming and a combat revamp. Probably lots will change. There isnt much point in asking for nerfs on us is there ? They will probably be coming anyway. So why not stop the bad publicity and simply wait a bit ? SoE has a proven track record of overshooting targets. What might start as a small nerf here and there may turn into a huge avalanche that can [Removed for Content] us till next expansion. So may be wise to be a more prudent because u may get much much more then what u ask for :smileywink:

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 09:54 AM

Oakwood · 06-20-2005, 09:05 PM

What you are all overlooking is that this is not a "Guardian nerf". This is a top to bottom overhaul of the entire combat, skills and spells system. Every class, every skill, every spell is being reevaluated. No one will be stacking a half dozen buffs to boost stats through the roof. Not guards, not troubs, not mystics, and so forth.

And yes, the system as it is now is grossly unbalanced. For example, once a mob is out of power, it can't hurt a plate wearer to any significant degree. This is not just guards, but also pallys, SK, and even templars. If I can stay alive against a yellow con mob long enough to drain it of power the healer and I both can afk and win every time, and so can any plate wearer. My brother's inquisiter can take orange con mobs solo by healing himself till it runs out of power, at which point he doesnt need to heal himself again.

Can anyone here justify how being immune to melle damage from a creature 3 levels above you is in any way balanced?

And this is just one example of the imbalances in the current system. The list goes on. Should berserkers and brawlers really be the highest damage classes in the game? Right now, they easily outdamage assasins and wizards on longer fights.

But it is not all nerfs. I am really looking forward to skill upgrades actually having an effect. Wouldn't it be nice for the adept III you just paid an arm and a leg for to actually be better than the app IV you upgraded from?

Pa · 06-20-2005, 09:54 PM

DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:

I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. I love the class and hope we do stay in a "main tank" role even after the adjustments come.

As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in.

For those reasons I support a "change" in how buffs, healing, dps, hate works. The system is flawed right now. Does armor/gear make a difference? I guess in certain situations/mobs yeah, I can agree on that part. In largely though it is how skills get buffed way to high. Our stacking spells are a culprit in this matter (and others). I didn't post going into detail about all the other classes and what does/does not stack because 1) I only have personally tested guardians 2) this is the guardian forum. So, don't think I am singling out Guardians but merely informing you of what changes I saw hitting us directly (vs indirectly by other class's buffs).

When the "final" changes hit, I am sure things will be a bit more challenging... but at the same time, as a whole, it will be tolerable and raids will continue to be done. Perhaps thou, there will be a touch of excitement...an epic will not die the 1st time it is tried...there will be a need for more than 1 tank...

Anyway, appriciate the feed back. Please do not think my comments/ suggestions truely "change" the game. You would only grow my ego more Sure I have tested stuff but in the end the devs are the decisionmakers and they do what is best for the game in the long run (most of the time), not for 1 particular person.

Much love,

Lots of people that dont like the changes know how easy some of the end game is with certain configurations.

Yea, having 165% avoidance is [Removed for Content]. Yea, the whole combat system revolving around big hits and high avoidance is ignorant and yea, having lots of fabled loot after doing all the encounters for months makes the whole system even more [Removed for Content] by mitigating those big hits by a much larger degree. Those have nothing to do with hp buffs.

What exactly will a guardian add to a group after the changes? Why would anyone make a guardian the MT on raids? If paladins are becoming 'more defensive' and our skill lines are being 'spread around' what makes us unique?

Theyre going to give all fighters a 5def buff and 300hp buff and call it balance heh, only problem is thats all we have to offer.

We are Guardians our skill line is called Protection, we should be the most defensive tank, thats why we picked our class, thats why we accepted the trade-offs. We're going to be a paladin without heals after the changes unless theyre hiding something big.

Shizzirri · 06-20-2005, 10:05 PM

uglak wrote:

Shizzirri wrote:
Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k

Ohhhh, sorry, so I guess we all put those zerkers, conjurers and necros in our MT groups for their good looks? Wouldnt have anything to do with gaining a few thousand hitpoints eh?

Also, so now its not the defense buffs making guardians unhittable, its the hitpoint buffs that are overpowering. We will get those nerfed up too for yas. Anything else ya need? I am sure once we get rid off all that defense and hitpoints, the games going to be so much better.

Noah can sit the bench while gauge tanks...

Quit complaining we're still going to have the highest amount of HP's by about the same margin, its just we can not stack them all, it doesn't make sense I mean can healers stack there redoubt spell, there symbols, etc. no, no, no I'm sure Zerkers buffs will change the same way...The defensive bonuses don't stack on the do or die line for guardians just the hp's I've looked and watched the numbers as I cast them.

And I agree with Noah the epic encounters are too easy once you get them down, changing buffs to the way they should be would probably make it a little more interesting but I'm sure it will be the same, contested may be a different story since you kinda have to tank them like you do dara.

Gage tanks omg I'd hate to be the healer healing him :smileytongue:

Pa · 06-20-2005, 10:12 PM

How does a HP buff equate to more challenging encounters, you all do realize defense buffs are what gives you the 165% avoidance right? And that the def component of our HP buffs already intentionally doesnt stack?

They could have fixed the defense stacking months ago, it would have taken less time than trying to upgrade epic encounters 3 (or was it 4) times now.

ugl · 06-20-2005, 11:02 PM

Paen wrote:

How does a HP buff equate to more challenging encounters, you all do realize defense buffs are what gives you the 165% avoidance right? And that the def component of our HP buffs already intentionally doesnt stack?

They could have fixed the defense stacking months ago, it would have taken less time than trying to upgrade epic encounters 3 (or was it 4) times now.

Easy there cowboy. Do not post stuff like this please.

Just nod your head and agree with the slow ones. Maybe tell us all how uber you are, and how trivial the content is.

Dont blame hitpoints buffs on conjurers or zerkers. Defense stacking? bah!.. Its that grey "call of command" spell you have been exploiting all this time. :smileyhappy:

Maybe something like this:

"Quit complaining we're still going to have the highest amount of HP's by about the same margin, its just we can not stack them all, it doesn't make sense I mean can healers stack there redoubt spell, there symbols, etc. no, no, no I'm sure Zerkers buffs will change the same way...The defensive bonuses don't stack on the do or die line for guardians just the hp's I've looked and watched the numbers as I cast them.

And I agree with Noah the epic encounters are too easy once you get them down, changing buffs to the way they should be would probably make it a little more interesting but I'm sure it will be the same, contested may be a different story since you kinda have to tank them like you do dara. "

Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 12:04 PM

Pa · 06-20-2005, 11:30 PM

Yea its getting old seeing people more interested in looking uber on a messageboard than the health of our class and the game as a whole. Your egos are going to kill our class instead of actually fixing the game.

Here's my 'I'm cool irl' link so I'm not portrayed a level 4 that doesnt know whats going on, http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=115494102 go me, and yes thats why I'm always advocating a /respec quest of some sort because I didnt pick HP traits for some stupid reason

Gaige · 06-21-2005, 12:10 AM

uglak wrote:
I got the adept 3s, some sprinkled fable and full ebon. I buff stack. I also tank epic mobs with 24 man raids. (rare spawn and instanced) I know my healers arent falling asleep at the keyboard when we are fighting these mobs. My bar still goes in the red. I think its more egoes talking on here then facts. But, thats probably do to noahs extreme guardian skillz..

I can't really think of the last time I saw his bar go yellow, let alone red. Sigon's either. Uglak what possible reason would Noah have for lying about being able to trivialize content. He does play a guardian man, I mean it isn't like he wants to see the class he plays for hours and hours everyday destroyed. I seriously doubt he'd be content to waste all of that time he invested, to spite you.

Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that.

Besides, it isn't *just* your HP buffs that are broken, its a lot of things.

Mainly how the guardian class (yes, every single one of you) is being able to tank because of avoidance. Pretty silly isn't it. To think that the +defense skill is broken in such a way that the most uber defensively oriented plate tank class in this game... tanks like a monk.

Sure you have higher HP and more mitigation... all of which do not matter when you are avoiding almost every hit.

I would think you guys would want a challange, would want to be true mitigation tanks, true defensive tanks... would want some sort of balance among the fighters so you can still go out and tank Darathar better than us, without being broken, and have something to say about it.

Instead of relying on a broken system to be the best, and really not give any other fighter a chance at all... and trying to brag about it.

My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before.

But that doesn't change the fact that your class (not entirely for reasons of your own) is broken.

Just remember back to January when avoidance was broken badly, and monks/bruisers and scouts for crying out loud were outtanking guardians a lot of the time.

I remember the posts I read back then, and you know what... I *asked* and even commented about how we were avoiding way too much, and it made the content trivial.

I want to tank hard stuff sure, but I want to earn it. I want to have to pay attention and I want a risk.

I don't want crap handed to me on a silver platter so I can touch 3 buttons, have a healer cast on me every 6th combat round and then spend my time in tells telling Noah how hot he is.

But anyway, the point is: everyone knows that the system is messed up, and that your class is getting a big benefit from it that it shouldn't. The avoidance is the biggest part of it, with the HP stacking being minor.

Noah was just letting you know what he saw on test that affects your class directly, as we haven't seen all of the combat/spell changes yet, it makes sense he wouldn't talk about those.

But to any of you who thinks he wants to ruin your class, you're out of your minds. He reminds me constantly about how guardians > monks, and he is a great MT. All he wants is to be great because he knows how to play, not by default because of what he chose at 20.

Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 06-20-2005 01:28 PM

Nazo · 06-21-2005, 12:29 AM

Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that.

He maybe totally making sense for HIS condition : with HIS equipment, HIS spells, HIS raid force. That doesnt reflect the majority of Guardians around by a far far margin.

Noone here is arguing the necessity of combat revamp. I havent seen a single post around yet that says leave things as it is. BUT almost pin pointing guardian as overpowered alone etc.. is not helping.

Maybe an example would better explain what I am trying to say : He is like a warlock that is saying

"We are sooooo over powered compared to wizards. I am not having fun anymore. We can solo anything. We need nerfing"

Do I make more sense now ?

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:34 PM

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:35 PM

Gaige · 06-21-2005, 12:33 AM

Nazowa wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that.
He maybe totally making sense for HIS condition : with HIS equipment, HIS spells, HIS raid force. That doesnt reflect the majority of Guardians aroud by a far far margin.

+Defense stacking doesn't take fabled gear. Neither does HP stacking. The guardian's mitigation, when combined with +defense, HP stacking is what causes the trivialization.

Avoiding almost all of the incoming hits, is not an intended design of your class. Because your mitigation and HP make the few, rare times you get hit due to the avoidance, minimal at best.

So having one of each type of healer in your group, with a HoT, reactive and ward on you = the strat.

That shouldn't be the case. You guys should be getting hit a lot more, relying on your mitigation, which would mean that healers would have to be on their toes. As they are with all the other fighter classes.

Oh, and don't even get me started about how reactive hate works.

Sure Noah has lots of fabled, and we happen to raid.

But that doesn't change the fact of what works for us, works for any guardian, just on a smaller level. But a smaller level is fine, when you are killing 35++ mobs.

Nazo · 06-21-2005, 12:46 AM

btw Gage we dont use Bloodline defense thingies in the guild when tanking. Sometimes tank without Warden in MT group or a Bard. So we are not exploiting the current defense stacking system to the fullest.

However those who do and maybe call things trivial afterwards deserve a good spanking :smileywink:

Gaige · 06-21-2005, 12:54 AM

I don't think I've seen any of us with the BLC thing. We do, though, normally have a warden and a bard in our MT group.

Pa · 06-21-2005, 01:24 AM

Guardians asking for a nerf to the only thing that sets us apart from the other fighters is no different than you asking for a nerf to your dps gage, unless you actually think youre supposed to be equal and in some cases out dps scouts and wizards, and tank as well as plate classes, heh, you cant have both. I'm sure you know that though, you just continue to scream loud for out of reach things since you know you will get something less but you will atleast get something. Which is ignorant, monks should be nerfed when the defense stacking is fixed, not upgraded.

SoE always over compensates on balancing issues and listens to whoever is screaming the loudest, if I'm not mistaken you came from EQ1 and you know that as well as I do, youre just the one taking advantage of it while you can.

No one said defense isnt broke, and its not just guardians with stupidly high avoidance on raids and xp groups.

Gaige · 06-21-2005, 01:35 AM

Nope, didn't play EQ1.

And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes.

As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts.

Noah · 06-21-2005, 03:49 AM

Pre-last patch, I have tanked just about every mob in the game with various different loot on. The only encounters I can see a difference in "tanking" with lesser armor would be Darathar. So as you have the right set up, nearly all encounters can be done with ebon that is farmed easily from Named in higher lvl zones and epic instances... and the difference it not much from full fabled vs full ebon. Do you think I popped in game at 50 with a ton of fabled? wrong. We did raid mobs in Grass-Lined Greeves, rubi dropped bps, and heritage weapons. I have swapped out gear just to see what happens... a few effects drop off but Auto attack epic melee still does not hit and skill damage still is easily managable.

I didn't make this post to cry out "OMG I LOVE TEH NERF"... I made it to inform you guys of what is up. To get a discussion going about it. I thank the people of opposite views that don't make personal jabs, showing a lot of credit and maturity. I didn't make the post to get flamed as some ego driven person that doesnt care about his class. Do I happen to agree that these changes coming are going in the right direction, sure. Do I think we are going to be some useless class come some changes...... absolutely not.

All n all this is just on TEST. There is nothing concrete about these changes going live. This is all great feedback (if done constructively) for devs to read.

Much love for the mature people SMILEY

Macross_JR · 06-21-2005, 04:18 AM

I agree with Noah. I also think we should wait until the Combat Ballance before any of us jump to conclusion. As of right now, from what I have read is that the HP buffs are not stacking. As mentioned in this thread and others, it is not the HP's that make anyone unhittable, it is defense.

P.S. Noah, I need another weapon made... SMILEY

Message Edited by Macross_JR on 06-20-2005 08:48 PM

Shaulin Dolamite · 06-21-2005, 06:32 AM

I agree with posts on both sides, or at least the ones done in a constructive manner. Not speaking for anyone else but myself.

My concerns are that fixes will be made with the end game in mind, but the end game isnt EQ2. EQ2 for most of us is everything including the end game. I hope that the fixes take that into consideration. Im only lvl 35 and almost never get into the so called perfect group, the problems I have are not the same as the lvl 50 guard. The healer in my group goes afk and I die SMILEY

. Im in no hurry to lvl 50 but in a hurry to just enjoy all lvls of my guardian. I want the class to be fixed for all the lvl 50s but not at the expense of every guard lower in lvls.

With that said I hope the changes made are for the good of the class and not the good of the uber lvl 50 SMILEY

Message Edited by Shaulin Dolamite on 06-20-2005 07:54 PM

Reebwen · 06-21-2005, 10:14 AM

I really think we should just wait and see how the full revamp will be so before everyone starts to commit seppuku :robotmad: lets be patient. That is why SOE is takeing there time with this and I for one am glad they are. I personally will just be starting to raid soon and like most of you don't want to see our class torn apart into utter uselessness. I also do not want to see an end game that will be trivial upon lvl 50 bringing instant uberness for people either. I want my equipment to mean something to me. (oh and I would also like a server named after me as well :smileyhappy: )

Styk · 06-21-2005, 11:39 AM

Uglak before you wanting to flame me j3rk why dont you see we are in the same boat , lets see what other class can stack hitpoint buffs as well in the fighter archtype ummmm thats right a berserker...... I wasnt flaming anyone but hey ill flame you Uglak , s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth

Sirrion77 · 06-21-2005, 03:45 PM

I just hope with the balance they will follow this (this is my own opinion SMILEY

:

Defence skill: Guardian > Berserker > Knights > Brawlers

Avoidance: Brawler > Knights > Berserker > Guardian

DPS: Brawler > Knights > Berserker > Guardian

Hate spells: Knights > Berserker > Guardian > Brawler

Overall HP: Guardian > Berserker > knights > Brawlers

Mitigration: Guardian > Berserker > knights > Brawlers

Sirriun

Message Edited by Sirrion77 on 06-21-2005 05:05 AM

ugl · 06-21-2005, 04:34 PM

Styker wrote:
Uglak before you wanting to flame me j3rk why dont you see we are in the same boat , lets see what other class can stack hitpoint buffs as well in the fighter archtype ummmm thats right a berserker......

I wasnt flaming anyone but hey ill flame you Uglak , s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth

I do not recall flaming you, but, your post makes me cry...

:smileysad:

Styk · 06-21-2005, 06:28 PM

Uglak i took your comment about zerkers as a flame , BUT if you didnt mean it as that then i will apologize you calling you out..... Cmon now , none of yall think its petty that with a zerker/Guard combo in MT group on raids we can put out 2k plus in HP buff? ( if they go along the route of fixing spell scaling i think we still will buff a huge amount of hp with both our Tier 5 buff instead of stacking 7 hp buffs total + your sta buff ) Also with a Guard in MT group a zerker can tank like a guard ( your defense buff overwrites every other tank types stance etc and still gives me 292 defense if applied with templar,mystic,troub/dirge and conjuror ) I understand everyones fears ( i myself am afraid that they will nerf zerkers to crap since a large part of the " dps " issue is with berserkers as well ) But we gotta wait and see what happens.... SOE = nerf kings and we know this ( eq, SWG blah blah blah as past reference ) but i dont think they are gonna leave 6 classes high end dry when everything is done... We just gotta see what we have to work with after the COMPLETE combat rebalance is out ..... ( thou with the looks of things paladins will be up there with guardians , that is for sure but still no word on zerker/sk and monk/brusier POST combat revamp ) Let just hope we dont get totally [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]rap3d SMILEY

Pa · 06-22-2005, 02:28 AM

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Nope, didn't play EQ1.

And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes.

As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts.

You're right, I havent read 99% of your posts in about 6 months since I deemed you an non-credible source of information, if your tune has changed that much then I was obviously wrong, and I apologize.

And Noah your elitist attitude stems from comments like:

As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in.

Maybe I took that and a few other comments the wrong way. The way I read it you basically said 'If you dont agree with me then youre not at my level of the game, and you will agree with me when you are.' If I did take that and other posts wrong then I apologize..

Things need to change, no doubt, most every encounter in this game is to easy, we just disagree on how it should be done I guess. I think they should fix the obvious #1 bug (defense) and go from there, not balance everything with the bug in tact and have everything totally screwed when the fix finally does go in. Guardians HP's have nothing to do with the level of difficulty on EQ2 mobs. It is however, the only thing we have going for us as guardians vs. other fighters.

The new contested mobs are pretty nice but all they did was add another bandaid fix for the defense bug by making them so high level their hit to miss ratio skyrocketed regardless of your avoidance. I still think they should have just fixed the bug itself months ago, cant be that hard to add in a few IF arguments to block or negate defense components, they did it with our HP buffs, or they should have just capped defense all together which would have been even easier and timely.

All they've done is create more and more problems for when they do actually fix it, these new mobs are going to rip us a new one once all the defense fixes and balacing changes go in, they keep balancing encounters around all these bugs instead of fix the bugs.. why! Capping defense could have been done on Monday instead of raising the levels of the mobs and we would have had the same outcome, we dont need to wait for combat art and spell changes to lower everyones avoidance to an acceptable level.

But then again I came from 4 years of EQ1 so I'm very pessimistic, and I dont want to wait another 2'ish years for my class to be fixed again (warriors). So far, with the exception of Frizznik, I have no faith in anyone for timely, accurate, balanced fixes and cool enhancements.

Message Edited by Paen on 06-21-2005 03:30 PM

ugl · 06-22-2005, 03:12 AM

Styker wrote:
Uglak i took your comment about zerkers as a flame , BUT if you didnt mean it as that then i will apologize you calling you out.....

I guess honestly I could care less how you take it. s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth

ugl · 06-22-2005, 03:15 AM

Paen wrote:

Gage-Mikel wrote:

Nope, didn't play EQ1.

And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes.

As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts.

You're right, I havent read 99% of your posts in about 6 months since I deemed you an non-credible source of information, if your tune has changed that much then I was obviously wrong, and I apologize.

And Noah your elitist attitude stems from comments like:

As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in.

Maybe I took that and a few other comments the wrong way. The way I read it you basically said 'If you dont agree with me then youre not at my level of the game, and you will agree with me when you are.' If I did take that and other posts wrong then I apologize..

Things need to change, no doubt, most every encounter in this game is to easy, we just disagree on how it should be done I guess. I think they should fix the obvious #1 bug (defense) and go from there, not balance everything with the bug in tact and have everything totally screwed when the fix finally does go in. Guardians HP's have nothing to do with the level of difficulty on EQ2 mobs. It is however, the only thing we have going for us as guardians vs. other fighters.

The new contested mobs are pretty nice but all they did was add another bandaid fix for the defense bug by making them so high level their hit to miss ratio skyrocketed regardless of your avoidance. I still think they should have just fixed the bug itself months ago, cant be that hard to add in a few IF arguments to block or negate defense components, they did it with our HP buffs, or they should have just capped defense all together which would have been even easier and timely.

All they've done is create more and more problems for when they do actually fix it, these new mobs are going to rip us a new one once all the defense fixes and balacing changes go in, they keep balancing encounters around all these bugs instead of fix the bugs.. why! Capping defense could have been done on Monday instead of raising the levels of the mobs and we would have had the same outcome, we dont need to wait for combat art and spell changes to lower everyones avoidance to an acceptable level.

But then again I came from 4 years of EQ1 so I'm very pessimistic, and I dont want to wait another 2'ish years for my class to be fixed again (warriors). So far, with the exception of Frizznik, I have no faith in anyone for timely, accurate, balanced fixes and cool enhancements.

Message Edited by Paen on 06-21-200503:30 PM

Amen. Same old song and dance. I really do not see how anyone can be optimistic with the track record so far. The "guardian nerf" paraders sure arent going to help anything, as Sony seems to change there minds on how to run the game depending on the number of board player posts. Which is a huge mistake.

Look at the waffling back and forth with the invoker robe for a most recent example.

Nibbl · 06-22-2005, 05:21 AM

Uglak, you are correct. Those that are more vocal tend to get what they want, seen it in EQ I. If guardians don’t stand together for their class defining skills, such as defense, it will be trivialized. When they revamp the skill/spell system to make spell lines true upgrades, soe needs to ensure they don’t nerf the overall benefits that currently exists. Example, if your 4 buffs that stack now give +20 defense they should do the same when you can only use one or two. Unfortunately after the combat changes people will still feel cheated. Light armor tanks are going to get a major mitigation decrease, while heavy armor tanks will see their avoidance drop significantly. Mitigatation and overall hitpoints will continue to rule on raid type mobs. Raids mobs don’t miss much, whether your avoidance is 20% or 80%. I doubt avoidance will scale evenly from green to red mobs, where you get hit the same percentage regardless of con.

Drozan71 · 06-22-2005, 05:34 AM

Just my 2 cp....

I think limiting the buffing of any stat or skill is a good idea for game balance whether it is end game, group or solo. I think Defense, Parry etc should only apply the highest version (Like how the defense of our lesser buffs that stack dont apply the def of it but do apply the Hps). I get tired of stacking 3 HP buffs myself so what I would like to see is for them to UP our highest Hp buff by 10 or 20 % and use that as our sole HP buff. I think limiting the stackability of Def, Parry etc should help in the trivialization of content. I think being able to self, group or raid buff your Def to say 15 or 20 Def (Dependent on if you chose the racial Def trait) still keeps us as a solid Def tank but not as Godlike as we were before. Maybe with the changes where we are suppose to be the best tank as we will have the lowest DPS we should have the highest Def buffability compared to any of the other tanks.

Here is an idea to make RAIDS less trivial...

Have the Named mob cast unresistable Zone wide AE that debuffs all Def, Parry etc. Yes I said ALL potential buffs that make some tanks better then others. That way having greater Def, Parry etc would mean crap when it comes to tanking the Named mob. Yes it will be ALOT tougher but then again I enjoy a TRUE challenge when I play a game and failure just makes me want to win that much more. By SoE doin this THEY can control the environment in which you raid. they can make the mob debuff what they want. When they lvl the playing field with the debuff they can lessen certain things with the Named and can better tailor the content with the field lvld and would open alot more doors for any fighter to step up and tank mobs.. Of course it would be best to have adds spawn and require off tanks and other creative things could be done to raids to keep everyone busy and on their toes in order to win.

I love being a Guardian but I think change is needed to balance ALL of the classes and keep the game interesting for us. Flame if you want BUT each of us are entitled to their own opinion.

Let me give you a small story to think about. I played EQ 1 and was a good solid tank with OK gear but not great. I joined a raiding guild and made HUGE improvements to my gear and skill playing my class. I would do LDoN and grind groups and sometimes we would add another warrior. Alot of the time they had Uber gear and thought they were the Chit since they raided and had so many Hps and AA. I dont judge people by their gear, Hps or guild they are in. I judge then by how they use the tools they are given to play their class (Tools being, AA, Armor, Weapons etc.). I found 50 to 60 % of these so called Uber tanks truly sucked and lacked some serious skill in how to play the Warrior class effectively. It would make me chuckle when I would sit back and do minimal Dps while they would screw up time after time. One last thing... I have tanked mobs that folks said I had no chance of tanking. I even had people come to me that had better gear and more Hps and failed and asked How the Heck was I able to tank that mob with my inferior gear?? I am very modest but sometimes it comes down to knowing your class, doing things exactly when they need to be done and playing your class with 120 % dedication to being the best.. Nough said SMILEY

Drozan

48 Guardian Butcherblock

ugl · 06-22-2005, 07:34 PM

Tanked Nagelik last night. 100% avoidence, 80% mitigation.

I resisted the harm touch, and still ate 12k damage in the first two rounds of combat...

Anyone elses "god mode" button bugged like mine?

Noah · 06-22-2005, 10:03 PM

My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch.

I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat. Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?

Styk · 06-22-2005, 10:27 PM

Maybe it means you suck Uglak? yeah s.t.f.u. take it like a man already, you know tank types are gonna eat it sooner or later but i guess you want it to stay as guard = all , sorry SoE doesnt agree anymore with that thought

Message Edited by Styker on 06-22-2005 11:28 AM

06-20-2005, 09:05 PM	#32
Oakwood Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 150	What you are all overlooking is that this is not a "Guardian nerf". This is a top to bottom overhaul of the entire combat, skills and spells system. Every class, every skill, every spell is being reevaluated. No one will be stacking a half dozen buffs to boost stats through the roof. Not guards, not troubs, not mystics, and so forth. And yes, the system as it is now is grossly unbalanced. For example, once a mob is out of power, it can't hurt a plate wearer to any significant degree. This is not just guards, but also pallys, SK, and even templars. If I can stay alive against a yellow con mob long enough to drain it of power the healer and I both can afk and win every time, and so can any plate wearer. My brother's inquisiter can take orange con mobs solo by healing himself till it runs out of power, at which point he doesnt need to heal himself again. Can anyone here justify how being immune to melle damage from a creature 3 levels above you is in any way balanced? And this is just one example of the imbalances in the current system. The list goes on. Should berserkers and brawlers really be the highest damage classes in the game? Right now, they easily outdamage assasins and wizards on longer fights. But it is not all nerfs. I am really looking forward to skill upgrades actually having an effect. Wouldn't it be nice for the adept III you just paid an arm and a leg for to actually be better than the app IV you upgraded from? __________________ Phenyx - Warlock of Test Rashel - Provisioner of Test Ogruk - Guardian of Permafrost

06-20-2005, 09:54 PM	#33
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	DemosthenesEQ2 wrote: I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. I love the class and hope we do stay in a "main tank" role even after the adjustments come. As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. For those reasons I support a "change" in how buffs, healing, dps, hate works. The system is flawed right now. Does armor/gear make a difference? I guess in certain situations/mobs yeah, I can agree on that part. In largely though it is how skills get buffed way to high. Our stacking spells are a culprit in this matter (and others). I didn't post going into detail about all the other classes and what does/does not stack because 1) I only have personally tested guardians 2) this is the guardian forum. So, don't think I am singling out Guardians but merely informing you of what changes I saw hitting us directly (vs indirectly by other class's buffs). When the "final" changes hit, I am sure things will be a bit more challenging... but at the same time, as a whole, it will be tolerable and raids will continue to be done. Perhaps thou, there will be a touch of excitement...an epic will not die the 1st time it is tried...there will be a need for more than 1 tank... Anyway, appriciate the feed back. Please do not think my comments/ suggestions truely "change" the game. You would only grow my ego more Sure I have tested stuff but in the end the devs are the decisionmakers and they do what is best for the game in the long run (most of the time), not for 1 particular person. Much love, Lots of people that dont like the changes know how easy some of the end game is with certain configurations. Yea, having 165% avoidance is [Removed for Content]. Yea, the whole combat system revolving around big hits and high avoidance is ignorant and yea, having lots of fabled loot after doing all the encounters for months makes the whole system even more [Removed for Content] by mitigating those big hits by a much larger degree. Those have nothing to do with hp buffs. What exactly will a guardian add to a group after the changes? Why would anyone make a guardian the MT on raids? If paladins are becoming 'more defensive' and our skill lines are being 'spread around' what makes us unique? Theyre going to give all fighters a 5def buff and 300hp buff and call it balance heh, only problem is thats all we have to offer. We are Guardians our skill line is called Protection, we should be the most defensive tank, thats why we picked our class, thats why we accepted the trade-offs. We're going to be a paladin without heals after the changes unless theyre hiding something big.

06-20-2005, 10:05 PM	#34
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	uglak wrote: Shizzirri wrote: Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k Ohhhh, sorry, so I guess we all put those zerkers, conjurers and necros in our MT groups for their good looks? Wouldnt have anything to do with gaining a few thousand hitpoints eh? Also, so now its not the defense buffs making guardians unhittable, its the hitpoint buffs that are overpowering. We will get those nerfed up too for yas. Anything else ya need? I am sure once we get rid off all that defense and hitpoints, the games going to be so much better. Noah can sit the bench while gauge tanks... Quit complaining we're still going to have the highest amount of HP's by about the same margin, its just we can not stack them all, it doesn't make sense I mean can healers stack there redoubt spell, there symbols, etc. no, no, no I'm sure Zerkers buffs will change the same way...The defensive bonuses don't stack on the do or die line for guardians just the hp's I've looked and watched the numbers as I cast them. And I agree with Noah the epic encounters are too easy once you get them down, changing buffs to the way they should be would probably make it a little more interesting but I'm sure it will be the same, contested may be a different story since you kinda have to tank them like you do dara. Gage tanks omg I'd hate to be the healer healing him :smileytongue:

06-20-2005, 11:02 PM	#36
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Paen wrote: How does a HP buff equate to more challenging encounters, you all do realize defense buffs are what gives you the 165% avoidance right? And that the def component of our HP buffs already intentionally doesnt stack? They could have fixed the defense stacking months ago, it would have taken less time than trying to upgrade epic encounters 3 (or was it 4) times now. Easy there cowboy. Do not post stuff like this please. Just nod your head and agree with the slow ones. Maybe tell us all how uber you are, and how trivial the content is. Dont blame hitpoints buffs on conjurers or zerkers. Defense stacking? bah!.. Its that grey "call of command" spell you have been exploiting all this time. :smileyhappy: Maybe something like this: "Quit complaining we're still going to have the highest amount of HP's by about the same margin, its just we can not stack them all, it doesn't make sense I mean can healers stack there redoubt spell, there symbols, etc. no, no, no I'm sure Zerkers buffs will change the same way...The defensive bonuses don't stack on the do or die line for guardians just the hp's I've looked and watched the numbers as I cast them. And I agree with Noah the epic encounters are too easy once you get them down, changing buffs to the way they should be would probably make it a little more interesting but I'm sure it will be the same, contested may be a different story since you kinda have to tank them like you do dara. " Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 12:04 PM

06-21-2005, 12:10 AM	#38
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	uglak wrote: I got the adept 3s, some sprinkled fable and full ebon. I buff stack. I also tank epic mobs with 24 man raids. (rare spawn and instanced) I know my healers arent falling asleep at the keyboard when we are fighting these mobs. My bar still goes in the red. I think its more egoes talking on here then facts. But, thats probably do to noahs extreme guardian skillz.. I can't really think of the last time I saw his bar go yellow, let alone red. Sigon's either. Uglak what possible reason would Noah have for lying about being able to trivialize content. He does play a guardian man, I mean it isn't like he wants to see the class he plays for hours and hours everyday destroyed. I seriously doubt he'd be content to waste all of that time he invested, to spite you. Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that. Besides, it isn't just your HP buffs that are broken, its a lot of things. Mainly how the guardian class (yes, every single one of you) is being able to tank because of avoidance. Pretty silly isn't it. To think that the +defense skill is broken in such a way that the most uber defensively oriented plate tank class in this game... tanks like a monk. Sure you have higher HP and more mitigation... all of which do not matter when you are avoiding almost every hit. I would think you guys would want a challange, would want to be true mitigation tanks, true defensive tanks... would want some sort of balance among the fighters so you can still go out and tank Darathar better than us, without being broken, and have something to say about it. Instead of relying on a broken system to be the best, and really not give any other fighter a chance at all... and trying to brag about it. My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before. But that doesn't change the fact that your class (not entirely for reasons of your own) is broken. Just remember back to January when avoidance was broken badly, and monks/bruisers and scouts for crying out loud were outtanking guardians a lot of the time. I remember the posts I read back then, and you know what... I asked and even commented about how we were avoiding way too much, and it made the content trivial. I want to tank hard stuff sure, but I want to earn it. I want to have to pay attention and I want a risk. I don't want crap handed to me on a silver platter so I can touch 3 buttons, have a healer cast on me every 6th combat round and then spend my time in tells telling Noah how hot he is. But anyway, the point is: everyone knows that the system is messed up, and that your class is getting a big benefit from it that it shouldn't. The avoidance is the biggest part of it, with the HP stacking being minor. Noah was just letting you know what he saw on test that affects your class directly, as we haven't seen all of the combat/spell changes yet, it makes sense he wouldn't talk about those. But to any of you who thinks he wants to ruin your class, you're out of your minds. He reminds me constantly about how guardians > monks, and he is a great MT. All he wants is to be great because he knows how to play, not by default because of what he chose at 20. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 06-20-2005 01:28 PM __________________

06-20-2005, 08:50 PM	#31
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	A lot of us higher level guardians are seeing that with certain easily obtainable combinations, mobs simply can't hit us. This is wrong. It's not just being overpowered, it's to the point where you could say we are broken. It's bad for the overall health for the game. I think the fact that your not seeing a huge outcry IS because a large number of people see this. Now as for the personal boredom in raids I do have to agree. After all is said in done; after these combat changes have rolled around, people in complete fabled gear, with all master spells, should find 99% of the current content trivial. Congrats, you are ready for the expansion. Yeah Exactly ! We got an expansion coming and a combat revamp. Probably lots will change. There isnt much point in asking for nerfs on us is there ? They will probably be coming anyway. So why not stop the bad publicity and simply wait a bit ? SoE has a proven track record of overshooting targets. What might start as a small nerf here and there may turn into a huge avalanche that can [Removed for Content] us till next expansion. So may be wise to be a more prudent because u may get much much more then what u ask for :smileywink: Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 09:54 AM

06-20-2005, 10:12 PM	#35
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	How does a HP buff equate to more challenging encounters, you all do realize defense buffs are what gives you the 165% avoidance right? And that the def component of our HP buffs already intentionally doesnt stack? They could have fixed the defense stacking months ago, it would have taken less time than trying to upgrade epic encounters 3 (or was it 4) times now.

06-20-2005, 11:30 PM	#37
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Yea its getting old seeing people more interested in looking uber on a messageboard than the health of our class and the game as a whole. Your egos are going to kill our class instead of actually fixing the game. Here's my 'I'm cool irl' link so I'm not portrayed a level 4 that doesnt know whats going on, http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=115494102 go me, and yes thats why I'm always advocating a /respec quest of some sort because I didnt pick HP traits for some stupid reason

06-21-2005, 12:29 AM	#39
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that. He maybe totally making sense for HIS condition : with HIS equipment, HIS spells, HIS raid force. That doesnt reflect the majority of Guardians around by a far far margin. Noone here is arguing the necessity of combat revamp. I havent seen a single post around yet that says leave things as it is. BUT almost pin pointing guardian as overpowered alone etc.. is not helping. Maybe an example would better explain what I am trying to say : He is like a warlock that is saying "We are sooooo over powered compared to wizards. I am not having fun anymore. We can solo anything. We need nerfing" Do I make more sense now ? Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:34 PM Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:35 PM

06-21-2005, 12:33 AM	#40
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Nazowa wrote: Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that. He maybe totally making sense for HIS condition : with HIS equipment, HIS spells, HIS raid force. That doesnt reflect the majority of Guardians aroud by a far far margin. +Defense stacking doesn't take fabled gear. Neither does HP stacking. The guardian's mitigation, when combined with +defense, HP stacking is what causes the trivialization. Avoiding almost all of the incoming hits, is not an intended design of your class. Because your mitigation and HP make the few, rare times you get hit due to the avoidance, minimal at best. So having one of each type of healer in your group, with a HoT, reactive and ward on you = the strat. That shouldn't be the case. You guys should be getting hit a lot more, relying on your mitigation, which would mean that healers would have to be on their toes. As they are with all the other fighter classes. Oh, and don't even get me started about how reactive hate works. Sure Noah has lots of fabled, and we happen to raid. But that doesn't change the fact of what works for us, works for any guardian, just on a smaller level. But a smaller level is fine, when you are killing 35++ mobs. __________________

06-21-2005, 12:46 AM	#41
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	btw Gage we dont use Bloodline defense thingies in the guild when tanking. Sometimes tank without Warden in MT group or a Bard. So we are not exploiting the current defense stacking system to the fullest. However those who do and maybe call things trivial afterwards deserve a good spanking :smileywink:

06-21-2005, 12:54 AM	#42
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	I don't think I've seen any of us with the BLC thing. We do, though, normally have a warden and a bard in our MT group. __________________

06-21-2005, 01:24 AM	#43
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Guardians asking for a nerf to the only thing that sets us apart from the other fighters is no different than you asking for a nerf to your dps gage, unless you actually think youre supposed to be equal and in some cases out dps scouts and wizards, and tank as well as plate classes, heh, you cant have both. I'm sure you know that though, you just continue to scream loud for out of reach things since you know you will get something less but you will atleast get something. Which is ignorant, monks should be nerfed when the defense stacking is fixed, not upgraded. SoE always over compensates on balancing issues and listens to whoever is screaming the loudest, if I'm not mistaken you came from EQ1 and you know that as well as I do, youre just the one taking advantage of it while you can. No one said defense isnt broke, and its not just guardians with stupidly high avoidance on raids and xp groups.

06-21-2005, 01:35 AM	#44
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Nope, didn't play EQ1. And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes. As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts. __________________

06-21-2005, 03:49 AM	#45
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	Pre-last patch, I have tanked just about every mob in the game with various different loot on. The only encounters I can see a difference in "tanking" with lesser armor would be Darathar. So as you have the right set up, nearly all encounters can be done with ebon that is farmed easily from Named in higher lvl zones and epic instances... and the difference it not much from full fabled vs full ebon. Do you think I popped in game at 50 with a ton of fabled? wrong. We did raid mobs in Grass-Lined Greeves, rubi dropped bps, and heritage weapons. I have swapped out gear just to see what happens... a few effects drop off but Auto attack epic melee still does not hit and skill damage still is easily managable. I didn't make this post to cry out "OMG I LOVE TEH NERF"... I made it to inform you guys of what is up. To get a discussion going about it. I thank the people of opposite views that don't make personal jabs, showing a lot of credit and maturity. I didn't make the post to get flamed as some ego driven person that doesnt care about his class. Do I happen to agree that these changes coming are going in the right direction, sure. Do I think we are going to be some useless class come some changes...... absolutely not. All n all this is just on TEST. There is nothing concrete about these changes going live. This is all great feedback (if done constructively) for devs to read. Much love for the mature people

06-21-2005, 04:18 AM	#46
Macross_JR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 547	I agree with Noah. I also think we should wait until the Combat Ballance before any of us jump to conclusion. As of right now, from what I have read is that the HP buffs are not stacking. As mentioned in this thread and others, it is not the HP's that make anyone unhittable, it is defense. P.S. Noah, I need another weapon made... Message Edited by Macross_JR on 06-20-2005 08:48 PM __________________

06-21-2005, 06:32 AM	#47
Shaulin Dolamite Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 158	I agree with posts on both sides, or at least the ones done in a constructive manner. Not speaking for anyone else but myself. My concerns are that fixes will be made with the end game in mind, but the end game isnt EQ2. EQ2 for most of us is everything including the end game. I hope that the fixes take that into consideration. Im only lvl 35 and almost never get into the so called perfect group, the problems I have are not the same as the lvl 50 guard. The healer in my group goes afk and I die . Im in no hurry to lvl 50 but in a hurry to just enjoy all lvls of my guardian. I want the class to be fixed for all the lvl 50s but not at the expense of every guard lower in lvls. With that said I hope the changes made are for the good of the class and not the good of the uber lvl 50 Message Edited by Shaulin Dolamite on 06-20-2005 07:54 PM

06-21-2005, 10:14 AM	#48
Reebwen Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 45	I really think we should just wait and see how the full revamp will be so before everyone starts to commit seppuku :robotmad: lets be patient. That is why SOE is takeing there time with this and I for one am glad they are. I personally will just be starting to raid soon and like most of you don't want to see our class torn apart into utter uselessness. I also do not want to see an end game that will be trivial upon lvl 50 bringing instant uberness for people either. I want my equipment to mean something to me. (oh and I would also like a server named after me as well :smileyhappy: ) __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------- Tranmek The Troll Guardian (Unholy Trinity) Test Server

06-21-2005, 11:39 AM	#49
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	Uglak before you wanting to flame me j3rk why dont you see we are in the same boat , lets see what other class can stack hitpoint buffs as well in the fighter archtype ummmm thats right a berserker...... I wasnt flaming anyone but hey ill flame you Uglak , s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

06-21-2005, 03:45 PM	#50
Sirrion77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	I just hope with the balance they will follow this (this is my own opinion: Defence skill: Guardian > Berserker > Knights > Brawlers Avoidance: Brawler > Knights > Berserker > Guardian DPS: Brawler > Knights > Berserker > Guardian Hate spells: Knights > Berserker > Guardian > Brawler Overall HP: Guardian > Berserker > knights > Brawlers Mitigration: Guardian > Berserker > knights > Brawlers Sirriun Message Edited by Sirrion77 on 06-21-2005 05:05 AM __________________ Sirriun - 80 Guardian - Unrest

06-21-2005, 04:34 PM	#51
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Styker wrote: Uglak before you wanting to flame me j3rk why dont you see we are in the same boat , lets see what other class can stack hitpoint buffs as well in the fighter archtype ummmm thats right a berserker...... I wasnt flaming anyone but hey ill flame you Uglak , s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth I do not recall flaming you, but, your post makes me cry... :smileysad:

06-21-2005, 06:28 PM	#52
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	Uglak i took your comment about zerkers as a flame , BUT if you didnt mean it as that then i will apologize you calling you out..... Cmon now , none of yall think its petty that with a zerker/Guard combo in MT group on raids we can put out 2k plus in HP buff? ( if they go along the route of fixing spell scaling i think we still will buff a huge amount of hp with both our Tier 5 buff instead of stacking 7 hp buffs total + your sta buff ) Also with a Guard in MT group a zerker can tank like a guard ( your defense buff overwrites every other tank types stance etc and still gives me 292 defense if applied with templar,mystic,troub/dirge and conjuror ) I understand everyones fears ( i myself am afraid that they will nerf zerkers to crap since a large part of the " dps " issue is with berserkers as well ) But we gotta wait and see what happens.... SOE = nerf kings and we know this ( eq, SWG blah blah blah as past reference ) but i dont think they are gonna leave 6 classes high end dry when everything is done... We just gotta see what we have to work with after the COMPLETE combat rebalance is out ..... ( thou with the looks of things paladins will be up there with guardians , that is for sure but still no word on zerker/sk and monk/brusier POST combat revamp ) Let just hope we dont get totally [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]rap3d __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

06-22-2005, 02:28 AM	#53
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Gage-Mikel wrote: Nope, didn't play EQ1. And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes. As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts. You're right, I havent read 99% of your posts in about 6 months since I deemed you an non-credible source of information, if your tune has changed that much then I was obviously wrong, and I apologize. And Noah your elitist attitude stems from comments like: As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. Maybe I took that and a few other comments the wrong way. The way I read it you basically said 'If you dont agree with me then youre not at my level of the game, and you will agree with me when you are.' If I did take that and other posts wrong then I apologize.. Things need to change, no doubt, most every encounter in this game is to easy, we just disagree on how it should be done I guess. I think they should fix the obvious #1 bug (defense) and go from there, not balance everything with the bug in tact and have everything totally screwed when the fix finally does go in. Guardians HP's have nothing to do with the level of difficulty on EQ2 mobs. It is however, the only thing we have going for us as guardians vs. other fighters. The new contested mobs are pretty nice but all they did was add another bandaid fix for the defense bug by making them so high level their hit to miss ratio skyrocketed regardless of your avoidance. I still think they should have just fixed the bug itself months ago, cant be that hard to add in a few IF arguments to block or negate defense components, they did it with our HP buffs, or they should have just capped defense all together which would have been even easier and timely. All they've done is create more and more problems for when they do actually fix it, these new mobs are going to rip us a new one once all the defense fixes and balacing changes go in, they keep balancing encounters around all these bugs instead of fix the bugs.. why! Capping defense could have been done on Monday instead of raising the levels of the mobs and we would have had the same outcome, we dont need to wait for combat art and spell changes to lower everyones avoidance to an acceptable level. But then again I came from 4 years of EQ1 so I'm very pessimistic, and I dont want to wait another 2'ish years for my class to be fixed again (warriors). So far, with the exception of Frizznik, I have no faith in anyone for timely, accurate, balanced fixes and cool enhancements. Message Edited by Paen on 06-21-2005 03:30 PM

06-22-2005, 03:12 AM	#54
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Styker wrote: Uglak i took your comment about zerkers as a flame , BUT if you didnt mean it as that then i will apologize you calling you out..... I guess honestly I could care less how you take it. s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth

06-22-2005, 03:15 AM	#55
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Paen wrote: Gage-Mikel wrote: Nope, didn't play EQ1. And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes. As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts. You're right, I havent read 99% of your posts in about 6 months since I deemed you an non-credible source of information, if your tune has changed that much then I was obviously wrong, and I apologize. And Noah your elitist attitude stems from comments like: As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. Maybe I took that and a few other comments the wrong way. The way I read it you basically said 'If you dont agree with me then youre not at my level of the game, and you will agree with me when you are.' If I did take that and other posts wrong then I apologize.. Things need to change, no doubt, most every encounter in this game is to easy, we just disagree on how it should be done I guess. I think they should fix the obvious #1 bug (defense) and go from there, not balance everything with the bug in tact and have everything totally screwed when the fix finally does go in. Guardians HP's have nothing to do with the level of difficulty on EQ2 mobs. It is however, the only thing we have going for us as guardians vs. other fighters. The new contested mobs are pretty nice but all they did was add another bandaid fix for the defense bug by making them so high level their hit to miss ratio skyrocketed regardless of your avoidance. I still think they should have just fixed the bug itself months ago, cant be that hard to add in a few IF arguments to block or negate defense components, they did it with our HP buffs, or they should have just capped defense all together which would have been even easier and timely. All they've done is create more and more problems for when they do actually fix it, these new mobs are going to rip us a new one once all the defense fixes and balacing changes go in, they keep balancing encounters around all these bugs instead of fix the bugs.. why! Capping defense could have been done on Monday instead of raising the levels of the mobs and we would have had the same outcome, we dont need to wait for combat art and spell changes to lower everyones avoidance to an acceptable level. But then again I came from 4 years of EQ1 so I'm very pessimistic, and I dont want to wait another 2'ish years for my class to be fixed again (warriors). So far, with the exception of Frizznik, I have no faith in anyone for timely, accurate, balanced fixes and cool enhancements. Message Edited by Paen on 06-21-200503:30 PM Amen. Same old song and dance. I really do not see how anyone can be optimistic with the track record so far. The "guardian nerf" paraders sure arent going to help anything, as Sony seems to change there minds on how to run the game depending on the number of board player posts. Which is a huge mistake. Look at the waffling back and forth with the invoker robe for a most recent example.

06-22-2005, 05:21 AM	#56
Nibbl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 177	Uglak, you are correct. Those that are more vocal tend to get what they want, seen it in EQ I. If guardians don’t stand together for their class defining skills, such as defense, it will be trivialized. When they revamp the skill/spell system to make spell lines true upgrades, soe needs to ensure they don’t nerf the overall benefits that currently exists. Example, if your 4 buffs that stack now give +20 defense they should do the same when you can only use one or two. Unfortunately after the combat changes people will still feel cheated. Light armor tanks are going to get a major mitigation decrease, while heavy armor tanks will see their avoidance drop significantly. Mitigatation and overall hitpoints will continue to rule on raid type mobs. Raids mobs don’t miss much, whether your avoidance is 20% or 80%. I doubt avoidance will scale evenly from green to red mobs, where you get hit the same percentage regardless of con. __________________ __________________________________________________ _________ Necros or Bust! Nibblar 55 Necro, Sithero 54 Warden, Groll 50 Guardian Thales 47 Illusionist, Epicurus 46 Inquisitor, Kyros 48 Necro

06-22-2005, 05:34 AM	#57
Drozan71 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 12	Just my 2 cp.... I think limiting the buffing of any stat or skill is a good idea for game balance whether it is end game, group or solo. I think Defense, Parry etc should only apply the highest version (Like how the defense of our lesser buffs that stack dont apply the def of it but do apply the Hps). I get tired of stacking 3 HP buffs myself so what I would like to see is for them to UP our highest Hp buff by 10 or 20 % and use that as our sole HP buff. I think limiting the stackability of Def, Parry etc should help in the trivialization of content. I think being able to self, group or raid buff your Def to say 15 or 20 Def (Dependent on if you chose the racial Def trait) still keeps us as a solid Def tank but not as Godlike as we were before. Maybe with the changes where we are suppose to be the best tank as we will have the lowest DPS we should have the highest Def buffability compared to any of the other tanks. Here is an idea to make RAIDS less trivial... Have the Named mob cast unresistable Zone wide AE that debuffs all Def, Parry etc. Yes I said ALL potential buffs that make some tanks better then others. That way having greater Def, Parry etc would mean crap when it comes to tanking the Named mob. Yes it will be ALOT tougher but then again I enjoy a TRUE challenge when I play a game and failure just makes me want to win that much more. By SoE doin this THEY can control the environment in which you raid. they can make the mob debuff what they want. When they lvl the playing field with the debuff they can lessen certain things with the Named and can better tailor the content with the field lvld and would open alot more doors for any fighter to step up and tank mobs.. Of course it would be best to have adds spawn and require off tanks and other creative things could be done to raids to keep everyone busy and on their toes in order to win. I love being a Guardian but I think change is needed to balance ALL of the classes and keep the game interesting for us. Flame if you want BUT each of us are entitled to their own opinion. Let me give you a small story to think about. I played EQ 1 and was a good solid tank with OK gear but not great. I joined a raiding guild and made HUGE improvements to my gear and skill playing my class. I would do LDoN and grind groups and sometimes we would add another warrior. Alot of the time they had Uber gear and thought they were the Chit since they raided and had so many Hps and AA. I dont judge people by their gear, Hps or guild they are in. I judge then by how they use the tools they are given to play their class (Tools being, AA, Armor, Weapons etc.). I found 50 to 60 % of these so called Uber tanks truly sucked and lacked some serious skill in how to play the Warrior class effectively. It would make me chuckle when I would sit back and do minimal Dps while they would screw up time after time. One last thing... I have tanked mobs that folks said I had no chance of tanking. I even had people come to me that had better gear and more Hps and failed and asked How the Heck was I able to tank that mob with my inferior gear?? I am very modest but sometimes it comes down to knowing your class, doing things exactly when they need to be done and playing your class with 120 % dedication to being the best.. Nough said Drozan 48 Guardian Butcherblock

06-22-2005, 07:34 PM	#58
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Tanked Nagelik last night. 100% avoidence, 80% mitigation. I resisted the harm touch, and still ate 12k damage in the first two rounds of combat... Anyone elses "god mode" button bugged like mine?

06-22-2005, 10:03 PM	#59
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch. I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat. Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?

06-22-2005, 10:27 PM	#60
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	Maybe it means you suck Uglak? yeah s.t.f.u. take it like a man already, you know tank types are gonna eat it sooner or later but i guess you want it to stay as guard = all , sorry SoE doesnt agree anymore with that thought Message Edited by Styker on 06-22-2005 11:28 AM __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle