Buff changes inc perhaps...

Noah · 06-18-2005, 10:23 PM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19394

Finally!

Pa · 06-18-2005, 10:45 PM

None of the 4 stacked? Braskans and Return to Battle should stack imo, lvl 40 trait and lvl 47 upgrade is way to close not to.

If they dont they need to let us respec in the same patch though, why is it such a problem to let people respec anyway, make it a long quest to 're-train' with other masters or something so people cant abuse it. Casters that didnt get their grp cures and stuff wishing they could now just isnt right, our lvl 40 trait that 99% of people picked because it stacked becoming near useless wont be very 'right' either.

Noah · 06-19-2005, 07:13 AM

lil birdie told me when the spell/skill change comes, we will all get respecs.

ugl · 06-19-2005, 10:51 AM

Sounds like a nerf to me..

What are we wooting about?

Styk · 06-19-2005, 04:05 PM

nerf its called placing alittle more balance in tank classes? cmon now warrior types ( guards and zerkers ) can stack 4 of the same line hp buffs? talk about a major hitpoint lead over and other fighter type.... now the question is will they do it right in the stacking or will they just mess it up and not allow any type of stacking at all ( as it is now 4 of the same spell line is wrong but not allowing the guard and zerker tier 5 hp buff to stack isnt right either ) Will wait and see

SirDra · 06-19-2005, 09:30 PM

I feel these abilites are what make us a tank. Are tanks not suppose to have superior hit points and defence over other classes? Hence the name "tank"... What ever i hope they dont screw us over to bad. Also be ready for the strength nerf. Less dps, hp, and defence for the win.

Pa · 06-19-2005, 10:38 PM

Really the only problem I have with them not stacking is they dont scale well, lvl 19 battle tactics is 207hp, lvl 37 do or die 306hp, lvl 40 trait Braskans 363hp, and lvl 47 return to battle is 363hp.. That and we get 3 hp buffs within 10 levels of each other, the defense component doesnt stack while the hp's do, seems very intentional to me that they were originally meant to stack for a grand total to balance our class.

Now monks and knights cried about it so instead of upgrading SK lifetaps, doing nothing with paladin heals since they already own, and telling monks to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] theyre a different kind of tank with scout dps that should be whats getting nerfed, were the ones getting nerfed without any regard to everything we traded off for those abilities.

Every day looks more and more like were going to be knights without the utility, heals or dps after 'the patch'. EQ1 warriors pre-kunark here we come, maybe we'll get critical hits and we'll all feel better... At least we can throw an intervene on the paladin who will be tanking and take a few non mitigated hits for them before we're laying face down 2sec later.

Noah · 06-19-2005, 10:39 PM

The entire system is getting an overhaul (what I heard at the fanfair). We could end up with 1 major HP buff skill at the end. You also have to remember that Adept3 of the HP buffs are pretty lame upgrades from app1. The difference between app1 and adept 3 is suppose to be a large amount, so maybe we will see a large HP buff at the end.

A majority of the "stacking" issues fall when skills are being stacked. Def, parry, slash, etc etc.... I believe it was not intended for a group to stack up to 280+ def, making most mob melee trivial. I like "being uber" and tanking just about everything w/o an issue, but when healers are afk for almost any fight and the only person that needs to truely pay attention is the mtank (even that is a stretch)... there is something flawed in buffs/skill/mobs.

ugl · 06-20-2005, 12:00 AM

A zerker wanting to talk about tank balance? ok... Lets start in your own closet however for adjustments.

To Noah,

I didnt see anything about balance and high buff upgrades, or any other class/classes changes in your post. All I see is you saying guardian buffs werent stacking, and acting like its a good thing... And some kind of dig about guardians being overpowered.

I know you have been swapping spit with gage lately, but geesh... You assume the problems with buff stacking fall in the guardians court? Looks like to me your saying EQ2 raid woes starts with guardians getting nerfed? You will have to excuse those of us that are not cheering you on with the "nerf the guards" crusade. I am sure gage is though.

Message Edited by uglak on 06-19-2005 01:45 PM

Noah · 06-20-2005, 04:00 AM

uglak wrote:

A zerker wanting to talk about tank balance? ok... Lets start in your own closet however for adjustments.

To Noah,

I didnt see anything about balance and high buff upgrades, or any other class/classes changes in your post. All I see is you saying guardian buffs werent stacking, and acting like its a good thing... And some kind of dig about guardians being overpowered.

I know you have been swapping spit with gage lately, but geesh... You assume the problems with buff stacking fall in the guardians court? Looks like to me your saying EQ2 raid woes starts with guardians getting nerfed? You will have to excuse those of us that are not cheering you on with the "nerf the guards" crusade. I am sure gage is though.

Message Edited by uglak on 06-19-200501:45 PM

As far as right now, don't you think buffing up 32 points of defense is a bit over the top? I mean that is buffing 6 lvls ... making your mit/ avoidance check a 56th lvl mob as if it was 50th. Since we hit 100% avoidance and 90% mitigation ... it kinda makes it easy to trivialize almost everything in eq2 unless it is nuking for 15k. I, for one, enjoy a nice challenge... I'm guessing you enjoy "god-mode".

I could care less about monks/zerkers tanking. Last I checked that was Gage's crusade and not some anti guardian picket rally. Don't start throwing insults out when you know there is an issue with the game dynamics and well, PART of that issue is our buffs.

Much Love,

ugl · 06-20-2005, 08:15 AM

DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:

As far as right now, don't you think buffing up 32 points of defense is a bit over the top? Maybe it is, guardians are not the only class with defense buffs. But yea, it seems to be our most powerful thing, stacking defense. What are we getting to make up for the nerf? OR does that put us "on par" with the other tanks now in yer opinion?

I mean that is buffing 6 lvls ... making your mit/ avoidance check a 56th lvl mob as if it was 50th. Since we hit 100% avoidance and 90% mitigation ... it kinda makes it easy to trivialize almost everything in eq2 unless it is nuking for 15k. I, for one, enjoy a nice challenge... I'm guessing you enjoy "god-mode". Yea, wish we could all be as hardcore as you noah. Again, buff stacking is not a guardian problem, it is a game problem. There are alot more ways to get defense then a few guardian buffs.. You support a defense cap too then? Why is your trumpeted solution a "guardian buff stacking nerf"?

I could care less about monks/zerkers tanking. Last I checked that was Gage's crusade and not some anti guardian picket rally. Don't start throwing insults out when you know there is an issue with the game dynamics and well, PART of that issue is our buffs.

Scary thing is you guys have the devs ear I think. Red carpet at the fainfair as well as getting to "test" the new content. I have never seen you flat out root for guardian nerfs before, but it appears your all for it now.

Much Love,

Watch the love comments, you will make gage jealous.

Message Edited by uglak on 06-19-2005 09:18 PM

Gaige · 06-20-2005, 09:50 AM

uglak wrote:
Watch the love comments, you will make gage jealous.

Nah, why would I be jealous of you SMILEY

sylvo · 06-20-2005, 12:13 PM

Dont take it personally Noah, The reason I think some people are going to be upset about this is because as usual changes at this fundamental level hit the guilds/players who havent "made it" yet hardest. I know for one that waay back when these changes were first talked about I made a push for 50 while it was still relatively easy. Im sure people can understand why changes need to be made, I for one am sick to death of having to stack 4 buffs on a 1 minute recast. Its just things will look a little grim (I for one know I am worried) until the whole picture is visible with complete skill/spell revamps for all and combat changes. I guess guardians want to know that they will still be at the forefront of tanking as that is where we chose to specialise, instead of picking any of the utility or added dps/ whatever that other classes chose. Farhane.

Nazo · 06-20-2005, 12:22 PM

Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT

EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF.

Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts.

When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids.

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:42 AM

ArcisFort · 06-20-2005, 01:37 PM

Nazowa wrote:

Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT

EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF.

Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts.

When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids.

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:42 AM

I could not aggre more 5 stars man.

ugl · 06-20-2005, 04:56 PM

Nazowa wrote:

Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT

EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF.

Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts.

When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids.

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:42 AM

I got the adept 3s, some sprinkled fable and full ebon. I buff stack. I also tank epic mobs with 24 man raids. (rare spawn and instanced) I know my healers arent falling asleep at the keyboard when we are fighting these mobs. My bar still goes in the red. I think its more egoes talking on here then facts. But, thats probably do to noahs extreme guardian skillz..

I heard they dont even use healers nowdays. noah stacks guardian buffs, strips off his armor, brings 23 warlocks and takes it all down..

Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 06:32 AM

ugl · 06-20-2005, 04:57 PM

edited double post

Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 06:31 AM

Sirrion77 · 06-20-2005, 05:18 PM

T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =). Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun. 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do. I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy. This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items. Sirriun Paradigm - Guild Leader Unrest

ugl · 06-20-2005, 05:44 PM

Sirrion77 wrote:
T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic.

That logic apply just to guardians?

Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =).

I am glad you got such confidence in that.

Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun.

So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think.

90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do.

Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to.

I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.

This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.

Sirriun
Paradigm - Guild Leader
Unrest

I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf.

Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 07:16 AM

Zaboo · 06-20-2005, 05:48 PM

Guardians themselves are not overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes.

Skyrocket · 06-20-2005, 06:10 PM

uglak wrote:

I heard they dont even use healers nowdays. noah stacks guardian buffs, strips off his armor, brings 23 warlocks and takes it all down..

Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-200506:32 AM

Good to know that.....I will just be afk from now on and wait on the loooooot...................... :smileyvery-happy:

Spaniel

50Templar

ugl · 06-20-2005, 06:22 PM

Skyrocket wrote:

Good to know that.....I will just be afk from now on and wait on the loooooot...................... :smileyvery-happy:

Spaniel

50Templar

I thought Noah just said that was the case now? All his healers are drooling in the keyboard while he tanks darathor naked?

BTW, your sig picture looks cool as hell... SMILEY

Sirrion77 · 06-20-2005, 06:39 PM

uglak wrote:

Sirrion77 wrote:T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic.

That logic apply just to guardians?

It's guardian forum, i talk about guardians. E.G: Zerkers can stack hp buffs too, it shouldn't, not going for every class comboed with between classes hehe. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =).

I am glad you got such confidence in that.Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun.

So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed?   I am following you I think.

If your raid force is not organised, a guardian in /godmode (E.G here, not a statement) won't help, but still nerf is needed... In EQ1(people that going to say it's not EQ1, good ideas can be taken from there, no?) plane of fear, even with well equiped players and very well organised raid party, was challenging and fun, even after zoning in there for the 50th time, clicking that portal was always making my heart go faster =).

90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do.

Maybe this means they need to make new instances?   Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek.   The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek.     And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats.   To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to.

Agreed that's why i said just below, only half harder. I'm all for implementing new zones though instead =).

I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.SirriunParadigm - Guild LeaderUnrest

I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial.   I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians.   Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs.    We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf.
Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 07:16 AM

Zaboo said Guardians themselves are not overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes.

It's change for all classes not only Guardians so everyone can see a "nerf" there, if everyone is "nerfed" well it's fair. Will just make things a bit harder (or not, who knows). Personnaly i see this as going out of Beta III and entering Release Candidate I. Sirriun

RafaelSmith · 06-20-2005, 06:42 PM

Sirrion77 wrote:
uglak wrote:

Sirrion77 wrote:T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic.

That logic apply just to guardians?

It's guardian forum, i talk about guardians. E.G: Zerkers can stack hp buffs too, it shouldn't, not going for every class comboed with between classes hehe. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =).

I am glad you got such confidence in that.Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun.

So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed?   I am following you I think.

If your raid force is not organised, a guardian in /godmode (E.G here, not a statement) won't help, but still nerf is needed... In EQ1(people that going to say it's not EQ1, good ideas can be taken from there, no?) plane of fear, even with well equiped players and very well organised raid party, was challenging and fun, even after zoning in there for the 50th time, clicking that portal was always making my heart go faster =).

90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do.

Maybe this means they need to make new instances?   Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek.   The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek.     And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats.   To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to.

Agreed that's why i said just below, only half harder. I'm all for implementing new zones though instead =).

I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.SirriunParadigm - Guild LeaderUnrest

I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial.   I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians.   Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs.    We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf.
Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 07:16 AM
Zaboo said             Guardians themselves are not overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes                 him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other     classes.
It's change for all classes not only Guardians so everyone can see a "nerf" there, if everyone is "nerfed" well it's fair. Will just make things a bit harder (or not, who knows). Personnaly i see this as going out of Beta III and entering Release Candidate I. Sirriun

Ha your too kind. Ide say its more along the lines of....going out of Final Alpha and entering preliminary Beta =P Release Candidate I is still years away =P

Shizzirri · 06-20-2005, 07:17 PM

Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k

ugl · 06-20-2005, 07:33 PM

Shizzirri wrote:
Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k

Ohhhh, sorry, so I guess we all put those zerkers, conjurers and necros in our MT groups for their good looks? Wouldnt have anything to do with gaining a few thousand hitpoints eh?

Also, so now its not the defense buffs making guardians unhittable, its the hitpoint buffs that are overpowering. We will get those nerfed up too for yas. Anything else ya need? I am sure once we get rid off all that defense and hitpoints, the games going to be so much better.

Noah can sit the bench while gauge tanks...

Mig · 06-20-2005, 07:40 PM

NM, I had posted some comments to everyone jumping down Noah's throat, but forget it. The ball is rolling people, deal with it.When dah nerf comes down, A chiwin' sound...

Message Edited by Migyb on 06-20-2005 11:51 AM

Noah · 06-20-2005, 08:27 PM

I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. I love the class and hope we do stay in a "main tank" role even after the adjustments come.

As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in.

For those reasons I support a "change" in how buffs, healing, dps, hate works. The system is flawed right now. Does armor/gear make a difference? I guess in certain situations/mobs yeah, I can agree on that part. In largely though it is how skills get buffed way to high. Our stacking spells are a culprit in this matter (and others). I didn't post going into detail about all the other classes and what does/does not stack because 1) I only have personally tested guardians 2) this is the guardian forum. So, don't think I am singling out Guardians but merely informing you of what changes I saw hitting us directly (vs indirectly by other class's buffs).

When the "final" changes hit, I am sure things will be a bit more challenging... but at the same time, as a whole, it will be tolerable and raids will continue to be done. Perhaps thou, there will be a touch of excitement...an epic will not die the 1st time it is tried...there will be a need for more than 1 tank...

Anyway, appriciate the feed back. Please do not think my comments/ suggestions truely "change" the game. You would only grow my ego more SMILEY Sure I have tested stuff but in the end the devs are the decisionmakers and they do what is best for the game in the long run (most of the time), not for 1 particular person.

Much love,

Nazo · 06-20-2005, 08:27 PM

Migby Said

NM, I had posted some comments to everyone jumping down Noah's throat, but forget it. The ball is rolling people, deal with it.

Loose the gung-ho attitude, none is jumping on anyone's throat. You can be assured that we will be able to adapt.

Some of us are just asking for some common sense in forum posts.

I have never seen another bunch of people ready to give up what they got without a fight. No other class even need to call a nerf on us but we are eagerly doing it to ourselves. Will you feel more macho tanking after a couple of nerfs ?

And Demos your crusade to relieve your personal boredom in raids is no different then the millions of monks calling for a Nerf on Guardians. They will end up with same results. Upto now I have allways found your posts constructive but looks like from now on they will be to forward your own personal issues with the game rather then for the Guardian Community as a whole. Pity...

Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 09:35 AM

Mig · 06-20-2005, 08:45 PM

Nazowa wrote:
Loose the gung-ho attitude, none is jumping on anyone's throat. You can be assured that we will be able to adapt.

Some of us are just asking for some common sense in forum posts.

I have never seen another bunch of people ready to give up what they got without a fight. No other class even need to call a nerf on us but we are eagerly doing it to ourselves. Will you feel more macho tanking after a couple of nerfs ?

And Demos your crusade to relieve your personal boredom in raids is no different then the millions of monks calling for a Nerf on Guardians. They will end up with same results.
Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 09:32 AM

I didn't realize that trying to avoid a flame war was being gung-ho.A lot of us higher level guardians are seeing that with certain easily obtainable combinations, mobs simply can't hit us. This is wrong. It's not just being overpowered, it's to the point where you could say we are broken. It's bad for the overall health for the game. I think the fact that your not seeing a huge outcry IS because a large number of people see this. Now as for the personal boredom in raids I do have to agree. After all is said in done; after these combat changes have rolled around, people in complete fabled gear, with all master spells, should find 99% of the current content trivial. Congrats, you are ready for the expansion.

06-19-2005, 04:05 PM	#5
Styk Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: San Diego,CA Posts: 559	nerf its called placing alittle more balance in tank classes? cmon now warrior types ( guards and zerkers ) can stack 4 of the same line hp buffs? talk about a major hitpoint lead over and other fighter type.... now the question is will they do it right in the stacking or will they just mess it up and not allow any type of stacking at all ( as it is now 4 of the same spell line is wrong but not allowing the guard and zerker tier 5 hp buff to stack isnt right either ) Will wait and see __________________ Zesstra - 70 Warlock Halcyon Affinity - Antonia Bayle

06-19-2005, 09:30 PM	#6
SirDra Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 71	I feel these abilites are what make us a tank. Are tanks not suppose to have superior hit points and defence over other classes? Hence the name "tank"... What ever i hope they dont screw us over to bad. Also be ready for the strength nerf. Less dps, hp, and defence for the win. __________________

06-20-2005, 04:00 AM	#10
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	uglak wrote: A zerker wanting to talk about tank balance? ok... Lets start in your own closet however for adjustments. To Noah, I didnt see anything about balance and high buff upgrades, or any other class/classes changes in your post. All I see is you saying guardian buffs werent stacking, and acting like its a good thing... And some kind of dig about guardians being overpowered. I know you have been swapping spit with gage lately, but geesh... You assume the problems with buff stacking fall in the guardians court? Looks like to me your saying EQ2 raid woes starts with guardians getting nerfed? You will have to excuse those of us that are not cheering you on with the "nerf the guards" crusade. I am sure gage is though. Message Edited by uglak on 06-19-200501:45 PM As far as right now, don't you think buffing up 32 points of defense is a bit over the top? I mean that is buffing 6 lvls ... making your mit/ avoidance check a 56th lvl mob as if it was 50th. Since we hit 100% avoidance and 90% mitigation ... it kinda makes it easy to trivialize almost everything in eq2 unless it is nuking for 15k. I, for one, enjoy a nice challenge... I'm guessing you enjoy "god-mode". I could care less about monks/zerkers tanking. Last I checked that was Gage's crusade and not some anti guardian picket rally. Don't start throwing insults out when you know there is an issue with the game dynamics and well, PART of that issue is our buffs. Much Love,

06-20-2005, 08:15 AM	#11
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	DemosthenesEQ2 wrote: As far as right now, don't you think buffing up 32 points of defense is a bit over the top? Maybe it is, guardians are not the only class with defense buffs. But yea, it seems to be our most powerful thing, stacking defense. What are we getting to make up for the nerf? OR does that put us "on par" with the other tanks now in yer opinion? I mean that is buffing 6 lvls ... making your mit/ avoidance check a 56th lvl mob as if it was 50th. Since we hit 100% avoidance and 90% mitigation ... it kinda makes it easy to trivialize almost everything in eq2 unless it is nuking for 15k. I, for one, enjoy a nice challenge... I'm guessing you enjoy "god-mode". Yea, wish we could all be as hardcore as you noah. Again, buff stacking is not a guardian problem, it is a game problem. There are alot more ways to get defense then a few guardian buffs.. You support a defense cap too then? Why is your trumpeted solution a "guardian buff stacking nerf"? I could care less about monks/zerkers tanking. Last I checked that was Gage's crusade and not some anti guardian picket rally. Don't start throwing insults out when you know there is an issue with the game dynamics and well, PART of that issue is our buffs. Scary thing is you guys have the devs ear I think. Red carpet at the fainfair as well as getting to "test" the new content. I have never seen you flat out root for guardian nerfs before, but it appears your all for it now. Much Love, Watch the love comments, you will make gage jealous. Message Edited by uglak on 06-19-2005 09:18 PM

06-20-2005, 09:50 AM	#12
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	uglak wrote: Watch the love comments, you will make gage jealous. Nah, why would I be jealous of you __________________

06-18-2005, 10:23 PM	#1
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19394 Finally!

06-18-2005, 10:45 PM	#2
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	None of the 4 stacked? Braskans and Return to Battle should stack imo, lvl 40 trait and lvl 47 upgrade is way to close not to. If they dont they need to let us respec in the same patch though, why is it such a problem to let people respec anyway, make it a long quest to 're-train' with other masters or something so people cant abuse it. Casters that didnt get their grp cures and stuff wishing they could now just isnt right, our lvl 40 trait that 99% of people picked because it stacked becoming near useless wont be very 'right' either.

06-19-2005, 07:13 AM	#3
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	lil birdie told me when the spell/skill change comes, we will all get respecs.

06-19-2005, 10:51 AM	#4
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Sounds like a nerf to me.. What are we wooting about?

06-19-2005, 10:38 PM	#7
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	Really the only problem I have with them not stacking is they dont scale well, lvl 19 battle tactics is 207hp, lvl 37 do or die 306hp, lvl 40 trait Braskans 363hp, and lvl 47 return to battle is 363hp.. That and we get 3 hp buffs within 10 levels of each other, the defense component doesnt stack while the hp's do, seems very intentional to me that they were originally meant to stack for a grand total to balance our class. Now monks and knights cried about it so instead of upgrading SK lifetaps, doing nothing with paladin heals since they already own, and telling monks to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] theyre a different kind of tank with scout dps that should be whats getting nerfed, were the ones getting nerfed without any regard to everything we traded off for those abilities. Every day looks more and more like were going to be knights without the utility, heals or dps after 'the patch'. EQ1 warriors pre-kunark here we come, maybe we'll get critical hits and we'll all feel better... At least we can throw an intervene on the paladin who will be tanking and take a few non mitigated hits for them before we're laying face down 2sec later.

06-19-2005, 10:39 PM	#8
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	The entire system is getting an overhaul (what I heard at the fanfair). We could end up with 1 major HP buff skill at the end. You also have to remember that Adept3 of the HP buffs are pretty lame upgrades from app1. The difference between app1 and adept 3 is suppose to be a large amount, so maybe we will see a large HP buff at the end. A majority of the "stacking" issues fall when skills are being stacked. Def, parry, slash, etc etc.... I believe it was not intended for a group to stack up to 280+ def, making most mob melee trivial. I like "being uber" and tanking just about everything w/o an issue, but when healers are afk for almost any fight and the only person that needs to truely pay attention is the mtank (even that is a stretch)... there is something flawed in buffs/skill/mobs.

06-20-2005, 12:00 AM	#9
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	A zerker wanting to talk about tank balance? ok... Lets start in your own closet however for adjustments. To Noah, I didnt see anything about balance and high buff upgrades, or any other class/classes changes in your post. All I see is you saying guardian buffs werent stacking, and acting like its a good thing... And some kind of dig about guardians being overpowered. I know you have been swapping spit with gage lately, but geesh... You assume the problems with buff stacking fall in the guardians court? Looks like to me your saying EQ2 raid woes starts with guardians getting nerfed? You will have to excuse those of us that are not cheering you on with the "nerf the guards" crusade. I am sure gage is though. Message Edited by uglak on 06-19-2005 01:45 PM

06-20-2005, 12:13 PM	#13
sylvo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 79	Dont take it personally Noah, The reason I think some people are going to be upset about this is because as usual changes at this fundamental level hit the guilds/players who havent "made it" yet hardest. I know for one that waay back when these changes were first talked about I made a push for 50 while it was still relatively easy. Im sure people can understand why changes need to be made, I for one am sick to death of having to stack 4 buffs on a 1 minute recast. Its just things will look a little grim (I for one know I am worried) until the whole picture is visible with complete skill/spell revamps for all and combat changes. I guess guardians want to know that they will still be at the forefront of tanking as that is where we chose to specialise, instead of picking any of the utility or added dps/ whatever that other classes chose. Farhane.

06-20-2005, 12:22 PM	#14
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF. Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts. When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids. Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:42 AM

06-20-2005, 01:37 PM	#15
ArcisFort Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 24	Nazowa wrote: Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF. Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts. When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids. Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:42 AM I could not aggre more 5 stars man. __________________ level 50 Guardian of Permafrost Fighter for Tempest

06-20-2005, 04:56 PM	#16
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Nazowa wrote: Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF. Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts. When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids. Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 01:42 AM I got the adept 3s, some sprinkled fable and full ebon. I buff stack. I also tank epic mobs with 24 man raids. (rare spawn and instanced) I know my healers arent falling asleep at the keyboard when we are fighting these mobs. My bar still goes in the red. I think its more egoes talking on here then facts. But, thats probably do to noahs extreme guardian skillz.. I heard they dont even use healers nowdays. noah stacks guardian buffs, strips off his armor, brings 23 warlocks and takes it all down.. Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 06:32 AM

06-20-2005, 04:57 PM	#17
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	edited double post Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 06:31 AM

06-20-2005, 05:18 PM	#18
Sirrion77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =). Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun. 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do. I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy. This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items. Sirriun Paradigm - Guild Leader Unrest __________________ Sirriun - 80 Guardian - Unrest

06-20-2005, 05:44 PM	#19
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Sirrion77 wrote: T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic. That logic apply just to guardians? Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =). I am glad you got such confidence in that. Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun. So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think. 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do. Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to. I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy. This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items. Sirriun Paradigm - Guild Leader Unrest I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf. Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 07:16 AM

06-20-2005, 05:48 PM	#20
Zaboo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 18	Guardians themselves are not overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes. __________________

06-20-2005, 06:10 PM	#21
Skyrocket Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 94	uglak wrote: I heard they dont even use healers nowdays. noah stacks guardian buffs, strips off his armor, brings 23 warlocks and takes it all down.. Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-200506:32 AM Good to know that.....I will just be afk from now on and wait on the loooooot...................... :smileyvery-happy: Spaniel 50Templar

06-20-2005, 06:22 PM	#22
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Skyrocket wrote: Good to know that.....I will just be afk from now on and wait on the loooooot...................... :smileyvery-happy: Spaniel 50Templar I thought Noah just said that was the case now? All his healers are drooling in the keyboard while he tanks darathor naked? BTW, your sig picture looks cool as hell...

06-20-2005, 06:39 PM	#23
Sirrion77 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	uglak wrote: Sirrion77 wrote:T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic. That logic apply just to guardians? It's guardian forum, i talk about guardians. E.G: Zerkers can stack hp buffs too, it shouldn't, not going for every class comboed with between classes hehe. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =). I am glad you got such confidence in that.Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun. So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think. If your raid force is not organised, a guardian in /godmode (E.G here, not a statement) won't help, but still nerf is needed... In EQ1(people that going to say it's not EQ1, good ideas can be taken from there, no?) plane of fear, even with well equiped players and very well organised raid party, was challenging and fun, even after zoning in there for the 50th time, clicking that portal was always making my heart go faster =). 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do. Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to. Agreed that's why i said just below, only half harder. I'm all for implementing new zones though instead =). I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.SirriunParadigm - Guild LeaderUnrest I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf. Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 07:16 AM Zaboo said Guardians themselves are not overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes. It's change for all classes not only Guardians so everyone can see a "nerf" there, if everyone is "nerfed" well it's fair. Will just make things a bit harder (or not, who knows). Personnaly i see this as going out of Beta III and entering Release Candidate I. Sirriun __________________ Sirriun - 80 Guardian - Unrest

06-20-2005, 06:42 PM	#24
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Sirrion77 wrote: uglak wrote: Sirrion77 wrote:T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic. That logic apply just to guardians? It's guardian forum, i talk about guardians. E.G: Zerkers can stack hp buffs too, it shouldn't, not going for every class comboed with between classes hehe. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =). I am glad you got such confidence in that.Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun. So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think. If your raid force is not organised, a guardian in /godmode (E.G here, not a statement) won't help, but still nerf is needed... In EQ1(people that going to say it's not EQ1, good ideas can be taken from there, no?) plane of fear, even with well equiped players and very well organised raid party, was challenging and fun, even after zoning in there for the 50th time, clicking that portal was always making my heart go faster =). 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do. Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to. Agreed that's why i said just below, only half harder. I'm all for implementing new zones though instead =). I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.SirriunParadigm - Guild LeaderUnrest I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf. Message Edited by uglak on 06-20-2005 07:16 AM Zaboo said Guardians themselves are not overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes. It's change for all classes not only Guardians so everyone can see a "nerf" there, if everyone is "nerfed" well it's fair. Will just make things a bit harder (or not, who knows). Personnaly i see this as going out of Beta III and entering Release Candidate I. Sirriun Ha your too kind. Ide say its more along the lines of....going out of Final Alpha and entering preliminary Beta =P Release Candidate I is still years away =P __________________

06-20-2005, 07:17 PM	#25
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k

06-20-2005, 07:33 PM	#26
ugl Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 230	Shizzirri wrote: Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k Ohhhh, sorry, so I guess we all put those zerkers, conjurers and necros in our MT groups for their good looks? Wouldnt have anything to do with gaining a few thousand hitpoints eh? Also, so now its not the defense buffs making guardians unhittable, its the hitpoint buffs that are overpowering. We will get those nerfed up too for yas. Anything else ya need? I am sure once we get rid off all that defense and hitpoints, the games going to be so much better. Noah can sit the bench while gauge tanks...

06-20-2005, 07:40 PM	#27
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	NM, I had posted some comments to everyone jumping down Noah's throat, but forget it. The ball is rolling people, deal with it.When dah nerf comes down, A chiwin' sound... Message Edited by Migyb on 06-20-2005 11:51 AM

06-20-2005, 08:27 PM	#28
Noah Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Willow Wood Posts: 229	I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. I love the class and hope we do stay in a "main tank" role even after the adjustments come. As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. For those reasons I support a "change" in how buffs, healing, dps, hate works. The system is flawed right now. Does armor/gear make a difference? I guess in certain situations/mobs yeah, I can agree on that part. In largely though it is how skills get buffed way to high. Our stacking spells are a culprit in this matter (and others). I didn't post going into detail about all the other classes and what does/does not stack because 1) I only have personally tested guardians 2) this is the guardian forum. So, don't think I am singling out Guardians but merely informing you of what changes I saw hitting us directly (vs indirectly by other class's buffs). When the "final" changes hit, I am sure things will be a bit more challenging... but at the same time, as a whole, it will be tolerable and raids will continue to be done. Perhaps thou, there will be a touch of excitement...an epic will not die the 1st time it is tried...there will be a need for more than 1 tank... Anyway, appriciate the feed back. Please do not think my comments/ suggestions truely "change" the game. You would only grow my ego more Sure I have tested stuff but in the end the devs are the decisionmakers and they do what is best for the game in the long run (most of the time), not for 1 particular person. Much love,

06-20-2005, 08:27 PM	#29
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Migby Said NM, I had posted some comments to everyone jumping down Noah's throat, but forget it. The ball is rolling people, deal with it. Loose the gung-ho attitude, none is jumping on anyone's throat. You can be assured that we will be able to adapt. Some of us are just asking for some common sense in forum posts. I have never seen another bunch of people ready to give up what they got without a fight. No other class even need to call a nerf on us but we are eagerly doing it to ourselves. Will you feel more macho tanking after a couple of nerfs ? And Demos your crusade to relieve your personal boredom in raids is no different then the millions of monks calling for a Nerf on Guardians. They will end up with same results. Upto now I have allways found your posts constructive but looks like from now on they will be to forward your own personal issues with the game rather then for the Guardian Community as a whole. Pity... Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 09:35 AM

06-20-2005, 08:45 PM	#30
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	Nazowa wrote: Loose the gung-ho attitude, none is jumping on anyone's throat. You can be assured that we will be able to adapt. Some of us are just asking for some common sense in forum posts. I have never seen another bunch of people ready to give up what they got without a fight. No other class even need to call a nerf on us but we are eagerly doing it to ourselves. Will you feel more macho tanking after a couple of nerfs ? And Demos your crusade to relieve your personal boredom in raids is no different then the millions of monks calling for a Nerf on Guardians. They will end up with same results. Message Edited by Nazowa on 06-20-2005 09:32 AM I didn't realize that trying to avoid a flame war was being gung-ho.A lot of us higher level guardians are seeing that with certain easily obtainable combinations, mobs simply can't hit us. This is wrong. It's not just being overpowered, it's to the point where you could say we are broken. It's bad for the overall health for the game. I think the fact that your not seeing a huge outcry IS because a large number of people see this. Now as for the personal boredom in raids I do have to agree. After all is said in done; after these combat changes have rolled around, people in complete fabled gear, with all master spells, should find 99% of the current content trivial. Congrats, you are ready for the expansion.