we're being replaced by SKs and zerkers - Page 2

Grumpy_Warrior_01 · 10-27-2009, 06:53 PM

TheSpin wrote:

I think the Developerss know tank balance is a bit screwed up right now, but it's such a major issue that they have decided to put a lot of time into fixing it and won't have the solution in game until the expansion hits. I'm not saying it's right; I'm just saying you shouldn't give up hope.

You can be certain beyond any doubt that the developers of this game are 100% aware of all of the imbalances described in this thread and 100 other similar threads. They also have every necessary tool at their disposal to make any balance adjustment with precision. People who say the developers don't understand the game or the classes are flat-out mistaken.

It was Moorgard years ago who posted something I will never forget. Responding to a thread much like this one, he said you have to create a little bit of unbalance, contention and inequality, otherwise the players will become complacent and stop logging in. I detested the statement back then, but I grew to realize he was right. You have to understand that the psychology of keeping people (subscribers) interested in doing the same thing night after night over a span of years is a delicate thing. The imbalance between the fighter classes was not accidental. The emotional effect it has on the "stickiness" of this population is something the producers are aware of with a high degree of precision.

This thread is a perfect example. There are some well thought-out, articulate and impassioned arguments here and in many other threads like it. Anybody can see the dedication and personal investment being expressed. How much of that intensity, advocacy and debate would have occurred if everything was in perfect balance?

Vlahkmaak · 10-27-2009, 08:50 PM

The op never said that the SK was better geared - he said he was replaced.

Davngr1 · 10-29-2009, 07:32 AM

in the guild i was at the launch of TSO the Guard MT and guild/raid leader looked at his Guards TSO/nerfed KoS AA then looked at his SK's TSO/boosted EOF/kos AA and made the SK MT. simple as that, there is no compering to be done guards where left behind and guards where, ARE useless for everything that is not a single, hard hitting mob.

really can't belive after all these post on a number of threads not one dev has so much as given a "hello, we're working on it"

DarkMasterMan · 11-02-2009, 08:44 PM

Raids: A single target, hard hitting mob you say. Would this hypothetical mob be similar to 95% of all raid encounters in the game? Usually there are trash mobs/lesser named, and a 'main' named in the encounter. The 'main' named should be picked up by the guardian, and the 'lesser/trash' mobs picked up by the OT. On many of the lower end encounters in hte game you can just bring everything on to one tank and be fine, but as you progress, the mobs hit harder and harder, and more precision is required as to who the mobs are attacking. Paladins are just as OP as SK's, and they can do almost as much damage. Paladins simply trade some survivability, for even more aggro control.

Guardians do have more long time survivability over a Shadowknight, at least on mobs that matter. Divine Aura is useless, because the hits that kill you will be more than 50% of your max health. SK's have furor, which is like reflexes, but you can cast, so it is better. However, most of the death blows from TSO mobs are dealt by huge single target spike abilitys such as the Touch ability on Gynok or Ykesha, and for that, a guardians TOS/block is superior to an SK's respite. Also, once Bloodletter is used, you can't recast it during combat, so on a fight such as Munzok if it triggers two times in the first five min, it will NOT be back up that fight, where as all the guardians saves will come back given time.

In the end game, things are fairly balanced, low end/mid game could use some tweaks though.(DW as a guardian should be viable on all named that are farm status)

Heroic: A guardian should be able to DW on all heroic content, thereby generating much more aggro, and can spec AGI for 40% hurricane, which is also sick for AE aggro.

Davngr1 · 11-06-2009, 07:14 AM

DarkMasterMan wrote:

Raids: A single target, hard hitting mob you say. Would this hypothetical mob be similar to 95% of all raid encounters in the game? Usually there are trash mobs/lesser named, and a 'main' named in the encounter. The 'main' named should be picked up by the guardian, and the 'lesser/trash' mobs picked up by the OT. On many of the lower end encounters in hte game you can just bring everything on to one tank and be fine, but as you progress, the mobs hit harder and harder, and more precision is required as to who the mobs are attacking. Paladins are just as OP as SK's, and they can do almost as much damage. Paladins simply trade some survivability, for even more aggro control.
think you miss understood my post. when i say that's" the only thing guards are good for", i did not mean that other tanks could not do it just as well, along with other fights that guards fall flat on their face. all the while being the least liked instance plate tank
Guardians do have more long time survivability over a Shadowknight, at least on mobs that matter. Divine Aura is useless, because the hits that kill you will be more than 50% of your max health. SK's have furor, which is like reflexes, but you can cast, so it is better. However, most of the death blows from TSO mobs are dealt by huge single target spike abilitys such as the Touch ability on Gynok or Ykesha, and for that, a guardians TOS/block is superior to an SK's respite. Also, once Bloodletter is used, you can't recast it during combat, so on a fight such as Munzok if it triggers two times in the first five min, it will NOT be back up that fight, where as all the guardians saves will come back given time.
concidering that bloodletter's two procs is 2 more death saves then guards get, not to mention the best death save in game, i'm not quite sure what "death saves" guards have up "again". maybe you mean the lvl 35 death save? the one that effectively kills the guard after it's duration is over? yea it's back up in 15min? and yes, you can cast it in combat, if you dont die it's wastet. if it does trigger it only delays death for 60 seconds or so. that being back up is an advantage?
divine aura still prevents dmg, maybe not the dmg that will kill the crusader but it will prevent small hits that add up and burn wards. actualy resprite and the myth clicky are better at preventing death then tower of stone and block since they only prevent dmg that is 30% or more, thus won't be wasted on small hits. also you can hit aura/resprite every time it's up, a guard has to plan/save his tower of stone uses as it will break his best shild or will force him to equip a lesser shild, thus defeating the purpose of avoiding dmg( lesser shild = less longevity)
In the end game, things are fairly balanced, low end/mid game could use some tweaks though.(DW as a guardian should be viable on all named that are farm status)
Heroic: A guardian should be able to DW on all heroic content, thereby generating much more aggro, and can spec AGI for 40% hurricane, which is also sick for AE aggro.
when a guardian DW's he becomes a crappy zerk, since a zerks have better ca's/abilitys for DW. also that 40% ae attack is a joke when compared to zerk 100% ae, sk's 8 or so blue ae's + 40% attack and pallys amends + 40% ae attack.

belive me.. guards aren't whining about petty issues. these are true problems with the class and devs have left the guard untouched for an entire expansion after nerfing their main agro AA line (STA) in preparation for the fighter revamp #2 that never happend.

in recap: guards got weak tso abilitys

lost single target superiority

took a nerf in phase 1 figher revamp while other plate tanks had buffs

never had these nerf's from figher revamp one reverted or balanced out when revamp #2 was canceld.

even with top end gear guards are meh.. nothing guards can do that another plate tank can't do now and there is a lot of things other plate tanks can do that guards can't.

nothing wrong with sk's being good tanks now but did devs have to break 95% of guards to achive this?

Zerako · 11-07-2009, 10:48 AM

For pure survivability Guard>SK. Furor=Reflexes. Respite=Block. TOS>Bl, since you can time TOS with all the major ST dmg spikes like touch(and if both trigs of bl go off you can't recast in combat) +Guard temps. +Sphere. Heroic content undergeared Guards could use help, but they're fine on raids. All mobs in game have been successfully MT'd by a Guard, this fact speaks volumes.

Oodog · 11-08-2009, 08:46 PM

all i can say is i hope guardians get something nice in t9 like monkey grip

they needs something to put them back into balance with other tanks.

sure they can take a hit better then other tanks

but at the moment they lack hitpoints aoe agro death prevents that other tanks get .

give them MONKEY GRIP please

btw monkey grip is two handed weapons can be used as a primary weapon.

Kigneer · 11-08-2009, 09:27 PM

Lump@Nagafen wrote:

but at the moment they lack hitpoints aoe agro death prevents that other tanks get .

Want a Pally's Divine Favor? At least Unyielding Will keeps the Guard alive longer than 10s...which is about as long as a stunned Pally can stay alive when DF hits. Turning it off IS a life saver! lol

Davngr1 · 11-09-2009, 06:49 PM

Zerakonx wrote:

For pure survivability Guard>SK. Furor=Reflexes. Respite=Block. TOS>Bl, since you can time TOS with all the major ST dmg spikes like touch(and if both trigs of bl go off you can't recast in combat) +Guard temps. +Sphere. Heroic content undergeared Guards could use help, but they're fine on raids. All mobs in game have been successfully MT'd by a Guard, this fact speaks volumes.

you missed divine aura for SK's saves, granted not too many sk spec for that but not one guard world wide specs for reflexes unelss he thinks mob agro is a bad thing.

i think SK is doing well and needs to stay a solid class for raid and grouping, the only changes needed are small adjustments for guards that's it.

next expac will fix many broken ablitys and ca's/spells for all classes and if pally's loose amends in their current form the class will need a huge boost, because right now they lag behind. also the tso end lines should be upgraded no matter what.

10-27-2009, 06:53 PM	#31
Grumpy_Warrior_01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 528	TheSpin wrote: I think the Developerss know tank balance is a bit screwed up right now, but it's such a major issue that they have decided to put a lot of time into fixing it and won't have the solution in game until the expansion hits. I'm not saying it's right; I'm just saying you shouldn't give up hope. You can be certain beyond any doubt that the developers of this game are 100% aware of all of the imbalances described in this thread and 100 other similar threads. They also have every necessary tool at their disposal to make any balance adjustment with precision. People who say the developers don't understand the game or the classes are flat-out mistaken. It was Moorgard years ago who posted something I will never forget. Responding to a thread much like this one, he said you have to create a little bit of unbalance, contention and inequality, otherwise the players will become complacent and stop logging in. I detested the statement back then, but I grew to realize he was right. You have to understand that the psychology of keeping people (subscribers) interested in doing the same thing night after night over a span of years is a delicate thing. The imbalance between the fighter classes was not accidental. The emotional effect it has on the "stickiness" of this population is something the producers are aware of with a high degree of precision. This thread is a perfect example. There are some well thought-out, articulate and impassioned arguments here and in many other threads like it. Anybody can see the dedication and personal investment being expressed. How much of that intensity, advocacy and debate would have occurred if everything was in perfect balance?

10-27-2009, 08:50 PM	#32
Vlahkmaak Server: Venekor Guild: Opus Dei Rank: Captain Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Yucaipa, CA Posts: 1,213	The op never said that the SK was better geared - he said he was replaced. __________________ Obin 92 Iksar Necro Opus Dei Nagafen Vlahkmaak 92 Troll Guardian Nagafen Dwyrm 92 Dwarf Paladin Nagafen Shoofaug 92 Iksar bruiser Nagafen Vlah 92 Troll Inqy Nagafen Vlahk 50 SK Nagafen Glavlahnus 92 Woodelf Ranger, betrayed and back again Cructik 92 TROLL BL Nagafen

10-29-2009, 07:32 AM	#33
Davngr1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,179	in the guild i was at the launch of TSO the Guard MT and guild/raid leader looked at his Guards TSO/nerfed KoS AA then looked at his SK's TSO/boosted EOF/kos AA and made the SK MT. simple as that, there is no compering to be done guards where left behind and guards where, ARE useless for everything that is not a single, hard hitting mob. really can't belive after all these post on a number of threads not one dev has so much as given a "hello, we're working on it" __________________

11-06-2009, 07:14 AM	#35
Davngr1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,179	DarkMasterMan wrote: Raids: A single target, hard hitting mob you say. Would this hypothetical mob be similar to 95% of all raid encounters in the game? Usually there are trash mobs/lesser named, and a 'main' named in the encounter. The 'main' named should be picked up by the guardian, and the 'lesser/trash' mobs picked up by the OT. On many of the lower end encounters in hte game you can just bring everything on to one tank and be fine, but as you progress, the mobs hit harder and harder, and more precision is required as to who the mobs are attacking. Paladins are just as OP as SK's, and they can do almost as much damage. Paladins simply trade some survivability, for even more aggro control. think you miss understood my post. when i say that's" the only thing guards are good for", i did not mean that other tanks could not do it just as well, along with other fights that guards fall flat on their face. all the while being the least liked instance plate tank Guardians do have more long time survivability over a Shadowknight, at least on mobs that matter. Divine Aura is useless, because the hits that kill you will be more than 50% of your max health. SK's have furor, which is like reflexes, but you can cast, so it is better. However, most of the death blows from TSO mobs are dealt by huge single target spike abilitys such as the Touch ability on Gynok or Ykesha, and for that, a guardians TOS/block is superior to an SK's respite. Also, once Bloodletter is used, you can't recast it during combat, so on a fight such as Munzok if it triggers two times in the first five min, it will NOT be back up that fight, where as all the guardians saves will come back given time. concidering that bloodletter's two procs is 2 more death saves then guards get, not to mention the best death save in game, i'm not quite sure what "death saves" guards have up "again". maybe you mean the lvl 35 death save? the one that effectively kills the guard after it's duration is over? yea it's back up in 15min? and yes, you can cast it in combat, if you dont die it's wastet. if it does trigger it only delays death for 60 seconds or so. that being back up is an advantage? divine aura still prevents dmg, maybe not the dmg that will kill the crusader but it will prevent small hits that add up and burn wards. actualy resprite and the myth clicky are better at preventing death then tower of stone and block since they only prevent dmg that is 30% or more, thus won't be wasted on small hits. also you can hit aura/resprite every time it's up, a guard has to plan/save his tower of stone uses as it will break his best shild or will force him to equip a lesser shild, thus defeating the purpose of avoiding dmg( lesser shild = less longevity) In the end game, things are fairly balanced, low end/mid game could use some tweaks though.(DW as a guardian should be viable on all named that are farm status) Heroic: A guardian should be able to DW on all heroic content, thereby generating much more aggro, and can spec AGI for 40% hurricane, which is also sick for AE aggro. when a guardian DW's he becomes a crappy zerk, since a zerks have better ca's/abilitys for DW. also that 40% ae attack is a joke when compared to zerk 100% ae, sk's 8 or so blue ae's + 40% attack and pallys amends + 40% ae attack. belive me.. guards aren't whining about petty issues. these are true problems with the class and devs have left the guard untouched for an entire expansion after nerfing their main agro AA line (STA) in preparation for the fighter revamp #2 that never happend. in recap: guards got weak tso abilitys lost single target superiority took a nerf in phase 1 figher revamp while other plate tanks had buffs never had these nerf's from figher revamp one reverted or balanced out when revamp #2 was canceld. even with top end gear guards are meh.. nothing guards can do that another plate tank can't do now and there is a lot of things other plate tanks can do that guards can't. nothing wrong with sk's being good tanks now but did devs have to break 95% of guards to achive this? __________________

11-08-2009, 09:27 PM	#38
Kigneer Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,462	Lump@Nagafen wrote: but at the moment they lack hitpoints aoe agro death prevents that other tanks get . Want a Pally's Divine Favor? At least Unyielding Will keeps the Guard alive longer than 10s...which is about as long as a stunned Pally can stay alive when DF hits. Turning it off IS a life saver! lol __________________ The "have nots" will always point what the "haves" have. Harmony is reached when both sides have their *needs* met.

11-02-2009, 08:44 PM	#34
DarkMasterMan Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 75	Raids: A single target, hard hitting mob you say. Would this hypothetical mob be similar to 95% of all raid encounters in the game? Usually there are trash mobs/lesser named, and a 'main' named in the encounter. The 'main' named should be picked up by the guardian, and the 'lesser/trash' mobs picked up by the OT. On many of the lower end encounters in hte game you can just bring everything on to one tank and be fine, but as you progress, the mobs hit harder and harder, and more precision is required as to who the mobs are attacking. Paladins are just as OP as SK's, and they can do almost as much damage. Paladins simply trade some survivability, for even more aggro control. Guardians do have more long time survivability over a Shadowknight, at least on mobs that matter. Divine Aura is useless, because the hits that kill you will be more than 50% of your max health. SK's have furor, which is like reflexes, but you can cast, so it is better. However, most of the death blows from TSO mobs are dealt by huge single target spike abilitys such as the Touch ability on Gynok or Ykesha, and for that, a guardians TOS/block is superior to an SK's respite. Also, once Bloodletter is used, you can't recast it during combat, so on a fight such as Munzok if it triggers two times in the first five min, it will NOT be back up that fight, where as all the guardians saves will come back given time. In the end game, things are fairly balanced, low end/mid game could use some tweaks though.(DW as a guardian should be viable on all named that are farm status) Heroic: A guardian should be able to DW on all heroic content, thereby generating much more aggro, and can spec AGI for 40% hurricane, which is also sick for AE aggro.

11-07-2009, 10:48 AM	#36
Zerako General Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4	For pure survivability Guard>SK. Furor=Reflexes. Respite=Block. TOS>Bl, since you can time TOS with all the major ST dmg spikes like touch(and if both trigs of bl go off you can't recast in combat) +Guard temps. +Sphere. Heroic content undergeared Guards could use help, but they're fine on raids. All mobs in game have been successfully MT'd by a Guard, this fact speaks volumes.

11-08-2009, 08:46 PM	#37
Oodog Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 13	all i can say is i hope guardians get something nice in t9 like monkey grip they needs something to put them back into balance with other tanks. sure they can take a hit better then other tanks but at the moment they lack hitpoints aoe agro death prevents that other tanks get . give them MONKEY GRIP please btw monkey grip is two handed weapons can be used as a primary weapon.

11-09-2009, 06:49 PM	#39
Davngr1 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,179	Zerakonx wrote: For pure survivability Guard>SK. Furor=Reflexes. Respite=Block. TOS>Bl, since you can time TOS with all the major ST dmg spikes like touch(and if both trigs of bl go off you can't recast in combat) +Guard temps. +Sphere. Heroic content undergeared Guards could use help, but they're fine on raids. All mobs in game have been successfully MT'd by a Guard, this fact speaks volumes. you missed divine aura for SK's saves, granted not too many sk spec for that but not one guard world wide specs for reflexes unelss he thinks mob agro is a bad thing. i think SK is doing well and needs to stay a solid class for raid and grouping, the only changes needed are small adjustments for guards that's it. next expac will fix many broken ablitys and ca's/spells for all classes and if pally's loose amends in their current form the class will need a huge boost, because right now they lag behind. also the tso end lines should be upgraded no matter what. __________________