we're being replaced by SKs and zerkers

Gonzo550 · 10-15-2009, 11:37 PM

nothing new here really but in raids, I've talked with several guards and they (and myself) have been replaced with SKs. I've been asked to play my wiz instead of tank. Thanks SOE. I should have slugged the exec director when I had the chance at Dragoncon.

Aull · 10-16-2009, 05:34 PM

It is not the exec directors fault for your guilds choice of a mt raid tank. To many variables to contend with on that. You obviously play your wizard well other wise your guild wouldn't ask you to come to raids. Be thankful you are still part of the raid roster and not booted from the raid force on both toons. So if I was in your shoes I wouldn't feel to bad.

I am sure if the sk isn't able to make raid you would still be able to tank on your guard.

Btw not trying to flame here.

Thanks.

Gonzo550 · 10-17-2009, 02:04 PM

so I should be happy that the character I've spent three years building up has been pushed aside? I admit the SK they found was better equiped than me (he has six t4 armor pieces when we can't even kill mobs that drop the first three t4 pieces) So I am upset first off over them wanting to bail on the person that has stood by them and tanked for them for months, turning me out for someone who already has stuff they won't have to work for. This is of course the curse of the tank, IMO. If a raid can find a tank to carry them higher without having to work for it, they won't hesitate to ditch and run. it's greed.

But at the same time, I believe it is SOE and the exec director who knows they broke guardians and they have no intentions of fixing the class. I won't restate the posts that are here already but suffice it to say, I'm not happy having to level 50 more AAs, get all new gear, etc and abandon what I've done all because of a little thing called crit mit. And that is SOE's fault.

What I want is pay-back for the pain SOE has caused me. Simply leaving the game isn't enough

Enoe · 10-18-2009, 10:07 AM

I loled

1. I know high end guids who uses guardians as MT still - and these guards do amazing job - maybe you were just too weak to stand up to the task?

2. All KOS, EOF, ROK - guardians were tanking kings w/o no contest from other tank classes - did you think for a moment how sk/zerks felt back then? Again many guilds raided back then with 2 guardians as MT/OT not even considering other tanks.

3. You didnt pay attantion to changes in the game. I myself played guardian succesfully for 3 years being MT/OT on raids. On november last year i started SK (my main job was OTing) because i knew game will change and new type of tank will be needed in rooster as non mt. In january this year my sk was raid ready with myth and 200 aa - guess what i didnt lose my spot in raid, just replaced one toon with other and still do same job OTing.

4. Tanks are gear dependable so whos fault is it your gear sux? And other tank, sk by chance, is a lot better geared?

Netty · 10-18-2009, 11:55 AM

Im getting tiered of hearing that guards have been kings of tanking? Guards had the MT spot on raids. Any other tank can OT 1000 times better than a guard. Is the MT spot everything in this game? No If a guard isent MTing he will be put aside thats te way it is. Since they are so weak in the other spots that can be filled.

Myself wasent replaced at all. On the harder mobs guards > Sk but that can be sorted out with gear. The biggest let down to guards atm is zerks and pallys. Zerks as a better vertion of a guard and pally As the best tank to mitigate dmg.

If ppl like you keep claiming things like this we will end up with one thing. One class called fighter.

Face it man guards need to be king at something to balance up the lack in other spots.

I dont have a problem at all with other tanks being able to MT. In my guild i mostly got to sit out for the harder fights The easy stuff goes so much easier and faster with the other tank classes. And you know what? the other tanks can tank the harder stuff as fine as me... And on some they are so much better like Yis.

I still can get it done... ofcs i can im still a awsome tank. But if you look at balance? There still is a long way to go... And what do we know... next expansion brawlers might be the nr1 tank for MTing.

Enoe · 10-18-2009, 01:43 PM

@netty just go to old pre tso topics here or flames and u will see many discussions what tank should be on raid back then. In more then 50% of raid guilds it was duo of guardians as mt/ot, and in old content it worked great. So yea guards were tanking kings in these days.

Vlahkmaak · 10-18-2009, 01:50 PM

Enoe wrote:

I loled
1. I know high end guids who uses guardians as MT still - and these guards do amazing job - maybe you were just too weak to stand up to the task?
2. All KOS, EOF, ROK - guardians were tanking kings w/o no contest from other tank classes - did you think for a moment how sk/zerks felt back then? Again many guilds raided back then with 2 guardians as MT/OT not even considering other tanks.
3. You didnt pay attantion to changes in the game. I myself played guardian succesfully for 3 years being MT/OT on raids. On november last year i started SK (my main job was OTing) because i knew game will change and new type of tank will be needed in rooster as non mt. In january this year my sk was raid ready with myth and 200 aa - guess what i didnt lose my spot in raid, just replaced one toon with other and still do same job OTing.
4. Tanks are gear dependable so whos fault is it your gear sux? And other tank, sk by chance, is a lot better geared?

Enoe,

1.) You know alot more about the game than to leave a response like this. You know guards are only in these spots becuase they have always been there and these guilds re a small sampling of the raid community. you know guardians are to dependent on dirges, coercers, and swashiesy/assassins to miantain consistent hate vs dps classes. you know any scrub SK can rip aggro of your guardian too.

2.) Yes guardians were MT and OT choice in previous expansions and many guards questioned this - we requested balance be brought to the other tanks so they could effectivelly OT. Most guards wanted SKs given some love to boost them up what they got was an unholy infusion of power. You gave up your guardian not so much to keep your raid spot becuase you knew guardians pale in comparison to crusaders in TO heroic content - unlike guards they dont require a dirge and a coercer and a scout transfer - they are great stand alone tanks. sure these classes add to their capability but are not needed.

My scrub pally in only vampire bane gear holds aggro through most TSO content against very good myth warlocks and assassins and other classes - multiples in grp too. You know a guard cannot claim the same. If DPS classes do not understand how a guard works then one of them is going to pull encounter aggro w/o a proper set up grp for a guardian. Crusaders do ot require proper set ups to get the job done faster.

3.) Gear for gear an equally geared solo crusader can out DPS, out aggro, and out survive a guardian in PVE and PVP. All gear being equal and without appropriate support classes the tank of choice is the SK then the pally over a guardian. With proper support classes the crusaders remain more thn viable MT choices, OT choices, and heroic content choices. Guardians need to be given back a reason to exist. I play mine because unlike othersI am to dog headed to stop playing him. sure I play pally, bruiser, and sk too but I love my guardian and when I have a proper grp there is nothing I cannot do on him however I know, as do you Enoe, that i could do the same thing FASTER on my crusader.

Evette23 · 10-18-2009, 06:30 PM

Enoe wrote:

@netty just go to old pre tso topics here or flames and u will see many discussions what tank should be on raid back then. In more then 50% of raid guilds it was duo of guardians as mt/ot, and in old content it worked great. So yea guards were tanking kings in these days.

Who cares what is was like in RoK, EoF, ? This is TSO now. Any plate fighter can tank anything in the game, if you think somehow guardians are better in some way than another plate fighter, then lol indeed.

Netty · 10-18-2009, 07:44 PM

Enoe wrote:

@netty just go to old pre tso topics here or flames and u will see many discussions what tank should be on raid back then. In more then 50% of raid guilds it was duo of guardians as mt/ot, and in old content it worked great. So yea guards were tanking kings in these days.

LOL to that. There was like 1 - 3 guilds back in rok that rolled with 2 guards. Even our SK tanked VP back in rok fine. woot? a sk no way.. yes way... The fact that most of the other tanks wanted to be the number 1 MT and not give up anything els of their strong sides. Yeah i can agree with you that the first Guard myth was Uber and made guards wow. But how long did they have it befor the other fighter where crying for nerfs? And what are guards stuck with now? junk and the rest still got their OP weapons...

Kings of tanking... Kings of MT raids. Yes that is what a guard should be. Thats the idea of a guard in the first place. The Most Defensiv tank you know... Even at the start of ROK so many zerks betrayed to guards since AD did suck duto them. Does it suck? No its not even close to suck... Its the best Defensiv buff in the game even with 100% Power. Get your facts man.

Enoe · 10-18-2009, 11:19 PM

Netty relax i fully agree they made guards very weak with TSO. I loved my guard when i played him but now compare to my sk he is just a joke. In fact now guard can be only mt on raids, but he need to be really good one skill/gear wise and problem is other plate tanks can do same job w/o much problems as well. At oting guardian sux, in instances he sux even more, not mention pvp...

edit: and dont laugh just read old topics on forums about raid tanking. OFC there were zerks, sk, palys even brawlers who did MT/OT job back in kos/eof/rok. Majority were guardians still like 70% raid tanks were guardians and rest all other 5 classes. Was it fair? NO!!!(even if i was one of these guards) Now if u look at raid setups, especially TSO content can be tank hungry (up to 4 tanks in setup) almost all tanks share same amount of spots. I agree that most tanks can be MT and OT, in tso guard can be only mt so if he will not get this possition he is out.

In your post u sound like scouts from pvp servers - they owned all other classes b4 tso. Now everscout is over and they got their buts kicked by classes they used to kill without thinking. So they crying what happened? why we r not on the top of food-chain anymore? You sound the same. Perma raid spot was taken away from guardians and u cry same as these scouts.

Guardian's Myth is a problem cause it sux big time now, if u can get same proc from raid jewelery why the hell it is still called mythical? Maybe start talking to devs about Myth 2.0 in next expansion? Dunno but i dont think it is right place and topic about mythical discussion.

Evette23 · 10-19-2009, 05:02 AM

It's hard to take anything you say about tanking seriously when you bounce around flavor of the expansion classes and ditch your guard to play a PvP shadowknight. I'm sure you enjoy harm touching noobz in teh face... and mass pulling rooms, clicking grave sac, and going to take a thick dump while your group kills the mobs. By your little scout rant I wouldn't be surprised if you have a brig/swash in your bag of toons that you enjoyed owning face with in their glory days.

If guardians are not the premier choice for a raid tank, they might as well be deleted from the game along with brawlers. As far as tanking goes, guardians excell at nothing and are out-classed by every other plate fighter in every aspect of the game, except maybe some select raid content where the raid is too busy executing scripts and learning an encounter to be doing any real dps and ripping aggro.

Can't hold hate with 3 healers, d-stance, sword & board on most content... so if you're going to roll with 2 healers or in o-stance or duel wield, might as well just throw a crusader in instead cuz they will have more survivability and better threat control. Don't even try to OT with a guard or solo instances or pwn noobz in pvp. Dedicated guards can get a group through heroic content although still being the worst choice of plate fighter. Probably out-classed by rogue tanks in easier instances even. Guards are only really useful in one single aspect of all the game's content, and 9 times out of 10 (I can pull stats out of my brown eye too) are not even the best choice of the four plate fighters.

For what it's worth I don't even play EQ2 anymore and haven't played my guardian since June or July. While I do still find it interesting to read up on the game I played for four (five?) years, I really could care less what they do with their game at this point. Just stating my fairly un-biased opinion that if you are using a guard to do anything at this point in the expansion.... well... that's about as useful as taking a summoner, brawler, or druid. There are better options for 99.9% of the content. It's the player not the class, but a good player using a mediocre class is not getting the most out of his role.

Netty · 10-19-2009, 12:42 PM

Enoe wrote:

Netty relax i fully agree they made guards very weak with TSO. I loved my guard when i played him but now compare to my sk he is just a joke. In fact now guard can be only mt on raids, but he need to be really good one skill/gear wise and problem is other plate tanks can do same job w/o much problems as well. At oting guardian sux, in instances he sux even more, not mention pvp...
edit: and dont laugh just read old topics on forums about raid tanking. OFC there were zerks, sk, palys even brawlers who did MT/OT job back in kos/eof/rok. Majority were guardians still like 70% raid tanks were guardians and rest all other 5 classes. Was it fair? NO!!!(even if i was one of these guards) Now if u look at raid setups, especially TSO content can be tank hungry (up to 4 tanks in setup) almost all tanks share same amount of spots. I agree that most tanks can be MT and OT, in tso guard can be only mt so if he will not get this possition he is out.
In your post u sound like scouts from pvp servers - they owned all other classes b4 tso. Now everscout is over and they got their buts kicked by classes they used to kill without thinking. So they crying what happened? why we r not on the top of food-chain anymore? You sound the same. Perma raid spot was taken away from guardians and u cry same as these scouts.
Guardian's Myth is a problem cause it sux big time now, if u can get same proc from raid jewelery why the hell it is still called mythical? Maybe start talking to devs about Myth 2.0 in next expansion? Dunno but i dont think it is right place and topic about mythical discussion.

I dont cry at all. Im pointing out on things you state in your post as wrong or right. Guards had the MT spot on raids. Thats guard. with out it well the class is kinda pointless. Guards never owned any other fighters even in rok. Any of the tanks could get it done. It was easier to MT with a guard back in rok. Look at the trash most of it is singel target. look at expansions befor rok.. It was mostly the lack of aoe fights that made guards look so over the edge in rok. Myths? there wont be any more myths from what i have heard and asking for the guard myth to be fixed... The thread will be locked in a day or two.. And if not.. well i dont think they care at all.

Vlahkmaak · 10-19-2009, 01:47 PM

Enoe is correct - alot of guilds ran 2 guards becuase of the nature of those older raids. As their was little AOE content (Harla Darla is the most massive old world AOE content I can recall off ahnd if you did the massive pull strat) guardians were king of this single target content in these old expansions. The old expansions Enoe talks about are legitamate becuase they illustrate the problem. Hell, I did not want a SK on my raid force till RoK and I had several very good SKs in my guild. Tubby, Carnes, and Paxton were great SKs. Our old guild leader rerolled guard from SK for raiding becuase guards were superior on raids and could do all heroic content just fine.

When AOE spec'd we could pull several trash and get zones done as quickly as crusaders back then as there was not much aoe content. SKs and brawlers suffered serious issues - crusaders generally had very poor avoidance check most of the time and bad block and brawlers while always getting high avoidance suffered from poor mitigation so when they did get hit they got hit. Now I tanked most old world content on a bruiser so I know it can be done but on the guard it was always much easier. Many believe that the new x-pac is gonna leave guards where they are at while brawlers are brought up to the level of crusaders. I am gonna say zerks are not quite there yet but with 100% aoe are darn close. If the plan is to leave guards in a deteriorated state and fix other spots becuase the intent is to give us back our sole reason to exist - raid MT then I am fore with it. Six + more months of slogging.

Currently this is not an issue for me because I have some very nice gear. While not through Avatars or last TSO boss mobs I have progressed through most of TSO b4 guild deterirated a few mos ago (and finally transitioned to Aion). I can tank any of the instances and hold aggro - becomes a bear in outter guk with warlocks but not to bad if they understand how guards work compared to sks. I remain dependend on the holy trinity for aggro though. With a perfect set up grp their is nothing a guardian cannot do.

New guardians or guardians that were not in a MT position for past 2 years or alt guards with looting rights are not gonna be able to do this very well if at all as gear aquisition goes for them beyond TSO. They are going to be starting the new x-pac significantly under geared, under played (time on target on your tank is invaluable - even if you have done an encounter on a dps//healer it is typically important to have tanked the encounter 1-2x to understand the zone well). And the guardian community will be under abilited for hate control, especially blue aoe hate control. I would trade AOE damage for blue hate but current mechanics are damage = hate. AoE zones are much more fun on the crusader - it is real work on a guardian. Not so much on a crusader.

The main problem with this is that fewer guards translates to fewer members of the general community knowing their role in a group when grouped with class a,b,c. I come from old school eq1 where the rule of thumb was aggro is a two way street: mmeaning if your pulling aggro it is not neccesarily the tanks fault - you have to look at what your doing. The current game mechanics though and general game population not only do not understand this aggro rule but scoff at it. As any scrub SK can through up sacrament and other immediate 100% aggro grabs wizzues can open with Ice comet they expect to do the same when guardians are tanking.

The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail.

In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again.

RafaelSmith · 10-19-2009, 02:04 PM

Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:

The main problem with this is that fewer guards translates to fewer members of the general community knowing their role in a group when grouped with class a,b,c. I come from old school eq1 where the rule of thumb was aggro is a two way street: mmeaning if your pulling aggro it is not neccesarily the tanks fault - you have to look at what your doing. The current game mechanics though and general game population not only do not understand this aggro rule but scoff at it. As any scrub SK can through up sacrament and other immediate 100% aggro grabs wizzues can open with Ice comet they expect to do the same when guardians are tanking.
The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail.

QFE.

This is exactly the situation I find myself in. I needed to witness it for myself so rolled up a Assassin, got him some adequate gear then proceeded to start doing pugs with variety of tanks.........old school SKs, new scrub FOTM SKs, guards, zerkers, yada yada. I can be grouped with a top end Guard or new Guard and I have to play smart, watch my aggro, etc. I can play with scrub FOTM SK #1000000 with his shiny new set of T1 or purchased T3 and can do whatever I want on whichever target I feel like without anything happening to me. Ive actually wanted to start putting my hate xfer on someone else just so the scrub SK has to maybe work a little harder =P

SOE went way to far in buffing/fixing SKs..this has resulted in a lazy playerbase which only hurts the good players(good Sks included) in the long run.

I actually have better aggro control on my Guard today than I did back in RoK.....yet look like a total idiot today because DPS forgot that they are as much responsible for aggro than I am.....Can't really blame them because I have seen how having SKs around ever corner able to easy-mode tank instances has made me forget my part as a DPS class in aggro.

Netty · 10-19-2009, 07:27 PM

Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:

Enoe is correct - alot of guilds ran 2 guards becuase of the nature of those older raids. As their was little AOE content (Harla Darla is the most massive old world AOE content I can recall off ahnd if you did the massive pull strat) guardians were king of this single target content in these old expansions. The old expansions Enoe talks about are legitamate becuase they illustrate the problem. Hell, I did not want a SK on my raid force till RoK and I had several very good SKs in my guild. Tubby, Carnes, and Paxton were great SKs. Our old guild leader rerolled guard from SK for raiding becuase guards were superior on raids and could do all heroic content just fine.
When AOE spec'd we could pull several trash and get zones done as quickly as crusaders back then as there was not much aoe content.  SKs and brawlers suffered serious issues - crusaders generally had very poor avoidance check most of the time and bad block and brawlers while always getting high avoidance suffered from poor mitigation so when they did get hit they got hit. Now I tanked most old world content on a bruiser so I know it can be done but on the guard it was always much easier.   Many believe that the new x-pac is gonna leave guards where they are at while brawlers are brought up to the level of crusaders. I am gonna say zerks are not quite there yet but with 100% aoe are darn close.   If the plan is to leave guards in a deteriorated state and fix other spots becuase the intent is to give us back our sole reason to exist - raid MT then I am fore with it. Six + more months of slogging.
Currently this is not an issue for me because I have some very nice gear. While not through Avatars or last TSO boss mobs I have progressed through most of TSO b4 guild deterirated a few mos ago (and finally transitioned to Aion).  I can tank any of the instances and hold aggro - becomes a bear in outter guk with warlocks but not to bad if they understand how guards work compared to sks.   I remain dependend on the holy trinity for aggro though. With a perfect set up grp their is nothing a guardian cannot do.
New guardians or guardians that were not in a MT position for past 2 years or alt guards with looting rights are not gonna be able to do this very well if at all as gear aquisition goes for them beyond TSO. They are going to be starting the new x-pac significantly under geared, under played (time on target on your tank is invaluable - even if you have done an encounter on a dps//healer it is typically important to have tanked the encounter 1-2x to understand the zone well). And the guardian community will be under abilited for hate control, especially blue aoe hate control. I would trade AOE damage for blue hate but current mechanics are damage = hate.  AoE zones are much more fun on the crusader - it is real work on a guardian. Not so much on a crusader.
The main problem with this is that fewer guards translates to fewer members of the general community knowing their role in a group when grouped with class a,b,c. I come from old school eq1 where the rule of thumb was aggro is a two way street: mmeaning if your pulling aggro it is not neccesarily the tanks fault - you have to look at what your doing. The current game mechanics though and general game population not only do not understand this aggro rule but scoff at it. As any scrub SK can through up sacrament and other immediate 100% aggro grabs wizzues can open with Ice comet they expect to do the same when guardians are tanking.
The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight.   With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail.
In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again.

Im not a new guard at all. All tho he is no retiered and replaced by my zerk. I have been raid MTing since kos. started off as a zerk betrayed to guard in midd EoF. I tank instances fine i put on a few MB items and roll with my agi spec. I like you to name a few of the guild that where raiding with 2 guards. Any guild raiding with 2 guards havent got a good zerk/pally. SK:s yeah they where abit after befor butthey still could get the job done.

My guard is now collecting dust since i got tiered of being put aside till the harder stuff. Any of the other plate tanks cando it faster... thats the way it is. I have 6 tso set and have raided most of TSO befor i retiered him. You know why? Why should a play a guard when a zerk have kinda much the same tools and even better AD that kinda much blows away any tool guards have. Atm if you are new to raiding and dont have to much gear its better to use a guard as MT since then you can see the diff. When you starting to gear up the diff is close to none.. thats the sad part of it. Zerks is atm a better vertion of guards. Zerks is aswell a great working class. Pallys are kinda much the same better in long terms of taking dmg as they are the tank that can mitigate the most dmg atm have the highest block powerfull wards and heals to save them if something goes wrong.

Other stuff that ppl dont under and as myself closed my eyes to is the fact for my guard to work on aggro i most of the time have to DW even with a great set up. DPS classes are putting out to big numbers these days. And i have found it very nice when mobs aoe alot since then i have time to build up aggro even with a shield.

Is it right that a crusader should out parse a warrior DW when they use a shield? and still have 100% better aggro controll?

I am not trying to say that most guilds dident use aguard as mt befor kinda much all of them did. But 2 guards? thats rare or only stupid.

I never said anything that i couldent do that or that. ofcs i have tanked all heroic tso instances atm but if i have a well geared warlock im kinda much on aggro they cant do the same dps as they use to. As you said they dont know how a guard works. And think sine the other tanks can do it the guard should be able to aswell.

And again to end this... I dont have a problem at all that other tank classes can MT abit easier now all tho the gap is to close atm sine the guard is weak on the other spots. And this is what ppl have to try and understand...

Yimway · 10-20-2009, 12:01 PM

Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:

The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail.
In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again.

dps = teh fun

Its not going to change from the dps focus, cause if it does, its the death of the game. For far too many people, this is the enjoyment of the game, its been this way too long and people are not going to adapt this late in a game.

Its my opinion that if you are a guard and you don't have the level 80 alt ready to go for SF yet, well, you've got 3 more months to get it ready.

When we all start over on the same starting point, remaining a guard will be an exceptionally poor decision.

RafaelSmith · 10-20-2009, 01:22 PM

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:
The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail.
In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again.
dps = teh fun
Its not going to change from the dps focus, cause if it does, its the death of the game. For far too many people, this is the enjoyment of the game, its been this way too long and people are not going to adapt this late in a game.
Its my opinion that if you are a guard and you don't have the level 80 alt ready to go for SF yet, well, you've got 3 more months to get it ready.
When we all start over on the same starting point, remaining a guard will be an exceptionally poor decision.

Sadly that is pretty much everything in a nutshell. SOE has been very clear in what direction they want the game...especially the "role" of tanking to go. I rolled an ALT mostly to sorta prove some things to myself. I had only viewed the stat of fighters and such from the Guard perspective and wanted to make sure I was not simply jumping on "nerf SK" or "Guards are [Removed for Content]" bandwagons. I had to go out and see first had what its like as a non-tank to group with the various fighters with various level of gear. Ive seen first hand which are "balanced", which are struggling and which are downright OP.

If come expansion my only choice is to focus on an alt or quit...its going to be a tough one because Guard and tanking is still my preferred class/role of choice.

Ristan · 10-21-2009, 12:03 PM

Being a raid leader, guild leader, and a person who loves the guardian class (my main alt is a guard)...unfortunately there are a few realities that came to light for me.

I have been running raids since the KOS days.

In my first guild we had a zerker tank. This worked ok in KoS, not so much in EoF or Rok.

When I started my new guild a year ago, we aquired a Guardian tank, we have a pally as an OT.

We started in RoK, the tank did well, but had severe agro issues. Our dps was afraid to dps because the mobs would come after them. As we geared up it got better (the guard had coercer/dirge in group) but it was always riding the line on agro. We got through RoK up to trakanon, and then switched to TSO. We got through the first two mobs in tombs, and the first named in palace...then the Guard decided to leave the guild.

We had our SK step up to the MT plate. He had almost no gear, just his myth, and so we got him t3, threw him in the same group as the guard, and 0 agro issues. The guard had better gear. The SK is up at the parse with the dps classes, and our dps can go full out and the mob doesn't even twitch. We ended up progressing further in 3 months than we did in the previous 8 months before that.

The SK was slightly harder to keep up, according to my healers, but not so much so, it merely came down to changing up the casting order of some of their heals

I play a guardian, who has decent gear (no myth yet). I have to take hate transfer classes with me wherever I go, and the majority of the time I loose good groups to SKs.

To me, this is how the tank should be:

Max Defensive tank: Guardian

Hybrid Defense/DPS: Berzerker/Paladin

Max DPS tank: SK.

and it may be like this in theory, however in a game that is dominated by DPS = Hate, the guard falls flat on it's face. Doesn't matter how much of a punch you can take if the mob isn't punching you.

Suggested fixes: Make SKs squishier, you don't necessairly have to nerf their dps or abilities, just make them take more damage so they can't stand side to side with a guard against a raid mob without some severely good playing. Give Guards some more dps while *WEARING* their sheild, just some to beable to manage agro they don't have to be DPS kings. Make taunts count, give guard/zerkers higher taunt amounts than SKs/Pallys.

Make it so Warriors (zerker/guard) are the desired MTs in the game.

Make it so Crusaders (pally/SK) are the desired OTs in the game.

everyone has a spot on the raid then, until then, every jack harry and sam on the server has an SK. and while the SKs tank, dps forgets how to play, and guards get left int he closet.

Bruener · 10-21-2009, 02:15 PM

Seriously? This whole thread is about somebody who plays a Guard that got replaced as MT by somebody that plays a SK that has better gear? Not to mention that odds are it is probably somebody that knows how to tank well.

Somebody recently posted the numbers on raiding guilds roster and the % of each class. Guess what, Plate fighters were pretty equal across the board, SKs and Guards almost having the same number of each class represented on raid rosters.

Now go take a look at raiding guilds and % of MTs that are Guards out there. It is probably still 90% Guards MT. Take it even further and go check out lead progression guilds and see what they are using as MTs.

Yes there are a lot of good players out there in every fighter type. The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period.

Landiin · 10-21-2009, 02:40 PM

Trolls Trolls every where Trolls.. U can not deny the facts Troll!

RafaelSmith · 10-21-2009, 03:23 PM

Bruener wrote:

The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period.

Yes I agree with that. In an ideal world where the classes were balanced properlyy that would be the only measure that should matter.

But the current state of the plates is such that a not-so-good Crusader in average gear is often better than most "good/experienced" Guards.

Ive witnessed this first hand playing my alt......I have done zones and raids with top notch Guards in top notch gear and top notch Sks....no difference whatsover..both did well which is what I would expect if things were balanced.......but...then comes the kicker....ive done most of those zones with some rather newb, not so well geared SKs and "lesser" Guards and the difference is night and day......in terms of fufilling the role of MT the scrub SK was not that much different than the top-notch....yet when comparing the "lesser" guard to any of the others it was sad how bad and how frustrating the group was. For the most part all these tanks are considered good and experienced.....a few obvious idiot FOTM Sks that I just ignore. The only differences really were the core class they play...thats where things are broken IMO.

Plates maybe balanced at one xtreme end of the spectrum but are more and more out of balance thru the rest. So when I QQ that SKs are OP.........not really talking about the top-notch ones..im talking about the class as a whole which currently allows bad players to look good even when compared against good players of the other fighter classes. Thats not healthy for the game or the class.

I would think you would not want your class to be one where idiots and bad players are allowed to look as good as they currently do and can MT for any group regardless of skill or gear differences.

And while looking at guild rosters does show some information is not a very good way to claim "balance".

Undorett · 10-21-2009, 03:39 PM

Almost every raid guild still uses a guardian to MT, however I believe this is because many people still think Guardians are the best tank out there. It is simply not true anymore. While I do not remember coming to the forums and begging for SKs to be buffed in KOS or ROK, I didn't come here to kick them while they were down either. Yeah, it's the SKs time to shine, who knows, maybe next expansion will be the Bruiser expansion. SOE has yet to get tank balance right, and I have no faith they will ever get it right.

In expansions past, Guardians were used to power through things at the begining, and near the end of that expansion when everything was starting to get easy, you would have your higher DPS tanks tanking everything just to get it dead faster. That seems to be what has happened in TSO, it just feels early because the expansion is late this year.

I think the single biggest problem facing guardians these days is agro on easy mobs. I have never had a problem with "hard" mobs and agro control, only ones that are stupidly easy which you should be in offensive stance dual wieding to kill. It is the only way to maintain a slight agro edge. Part 1 of the tank revamp went live with TSO, giving all fighters more survivability to bring them more in line with guardians. Part 2 of the tank revamp was supposed to be the hate revamp, which is supposed to come out with the next expansion...let's see if he can get it even remotely correct as we are in the largest need of more hate.

Bruener · 10-21-2009, 04:29 PM

Undorett wrote:

Almost every raid guild still uses a guardian to MT, however I believe this is because many people still think Guardians are the best tank out there. It is simply not true anymore. While I do not remember coming to the forums and begging for SKs to be buffed in KOS or ROK, I didn't come here to kick them while they were down either. Yeah, it's the SKs time to shine, who knows, maybe next expansion will be the Bruiser expansion. SOE has yet to get tank balance right, and I have no faith they will ever get it right.
In expansions past, Guardians were used to power through things at the begining, and near the end of that expansion when everything was starting to get easy, you would have your higher DPS tanks tanking everything just to get it dead faster. That seems to be what has happened in TSO, it just feels early because the expansion is late this year.
I think the single biggest problem facing guardians these days is agro on easy mobs. I have never had a problem with "hard" mobs and agro control, only ones that are stupidly easy which you should be in offensive stance dual wieding to kill. It is the only way to maintain a slight agro edge. Part 1 of the tank revamp went live with TSO, giving all fighters more survivability to bring them more in line with guardians. Part 2 of the tank revamp was supposed to be the hate revamp, which is supposed to come out with the next expansion...let's see if he can get it even remotely correct as we are in the largest need of more hate.

Honestly I think you nail it on the head. Guards have always been and still are the progressive tank of choice. Once mobs become trivial or farm status it is faster to do it with one of the other tanks. Or to be more accurate it is much easier to put in tank X in place and not feel much of a difference. All x-pacs were like this, barring RoK where Guard+Mythical was just ridiculous.

Honestly we are to the point in the expansion that this would have been present in the past...the difference is that we are not going to see a new x-pac until February. However, there is still the argument that there is a brand new raid zone with tough mobs on Enraged that are progression mobs, and for a lot of guilds there is still plenty of progression out there....hence why the OPs guild wanted to use a better geared tank.

Bruener · 10-21-2009, 04:35 PM

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

Bruener wrote:
The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period.
Yes I agree with that. In an ideal world where the classes were balanced properlyy that would be the only measure that should matter.
But the current state of the plates is such that a not-so-good Crusader in average gear is often better than most "good/experienced" Guards.
Ive witnessed this first hand playing my alt......I have done zones and raids with top notch Guards in top notch gear and top notch Sks....no difference whatsover..both did well which is what I would expect if things were balanced.......but...then comes the kicker....ive done most of those zones with some rather newb, not so well geared SKs and "lesser" Guards and the difference is night and day......in terms of fufilling the role of MT the scrub SK was not that much different than the top-notch....yet when comparing the "lesser" guard to any of the others it was sad how bad and how frustrating the group was. For the most part all these tanks are considered good and experienced.....a few obvious idiot FOTM Sks that I just ignore. The only differences really were the core class they play...thats where things are broken IMO.
Plates maybe balanced at one xtreme end of the spectrum but are more and more out of balance thru the rest. So when I QQ that SKs are OP.........not really talking about the top-notch ones..im talking about the class as a whole which currently allows bad players to look good even when compared against good players of the other fighter classes. Thats not healthy for the game or the class.
I would think you would not want your class to be one where idiots and bad players are allowed to look as good as they currently do and can MT for any group regardless of skill or gear differences.
And while looking at guild rosters does show some information is not a very good way to claim "balance".

And no I don't like how FoTM SKs have become. On the other hand I don't see these supposedly "uber" noob SKs. There isn't a SK I have ever played with that I haven't put them to shame....and it is even more obvious with all these people leveling a SK up in a couple weeks. They are terrible in most cases and mediocre at best. But than its not like it is rocket science runnign these group shard zones. You build up a group and with the DPS players are putting out these days and the amounts of healing somebody can do without very much thought a zone is cleared in no time and you could put a monkey that is playing a mage as MT and do just as well. In fact, there are a lot of cases where groups will roll without tanks and clear zones np. Heck, almost every zone can be duo'd now.

But, this is about what the OP posted. He was replaced by somebody that out-geared him, which means he probably had more experience, and in all seriousness was probably just a better tank. Numbers don't lie, and top guilds use what works.

RafaelSmith · 10-21-2009, 05:28 PM

Bruener wrote:

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:
Bruener wrote:
The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period.
Yes I agree with that. In an ideal world where the classes were balanced properlyy that would be the only measure that should matter.
But the current state of the plates is such that a not-so-good Crusader in average gear is often better than most "good/experienced" Guards.
Ive witnessed this first hand playing my alt......I have done zones and raids with top notch Guards in top notch gear and top notch Sks....no difference whatsover..both did well which is what I would expect if things were balanced.......but...then comes the kicker....ive done most of those zones with some rather newb, not so well geared SKs and "lesser" Guards and the difference is night and day......in terms of fufilling the role of MT the scrub SK was not that much different than the top-notch....yet when comparing the "lesser" guard to any of the others it was sad how bad and how frustrating the group was. For the most part all these tanks are considered good and experienced.....a few obvious idiot FOTM Sks that I just ignore. The only differences really were the core class they play...thats where things are broken IMO.
Plates maybe balanced at one xtreme end of the spectrum but are more and more out of balance thru the rest. So when I QQ that SKs are OP.........not really talking about the top-notch ones..im talking about the class as a whole which currently allows bad players to look good even when compared against good players of the other fighter classes. Thats not healthy for the game or the class.
I would think you would not want your class to be one where idiots and bad players are allowed to look as good as they currently do and can MT for any group regardless of skill or gear differences.
And while looking at guild rosters does show some information is not a very good way to claim "balance".
And no I don't like how FoTM SKs have become. On the other hand I don't see these supposedly "uber" noob SKs. There isn't a SK I have ever played with that I haven't put them to shame....and it is even more obvious with all these people leveling a SK up in a couple weeks. They are terrible in most cases and mediocre at best. But than its not like it is rocket science runnign these group shard zones. You build up a group and with the DPS players are putting out these days and the amounts of healing somebody can do without very much thought a zone is cleared in no time and you could put a monkey that is playing a mage as MT and do just as well. In fact, there are a lot of cases where groups will roll without tanks and clear zones np. Heck, almost every zone can be duo'd now.
But, this is about what the OP posted. He was replaced by somebody that out-geared him, which means he probably had more experience, and in all seriousness was probably just a better tank. Numbers don't lie, and top guilds use what works.

Again those that you normally play with might be able to do just that.....I have no doubt....ive had the priviledge of playing with some people from top and guilds that have far exceeded the gear needed to trivilize group content no matter what class they are......including Guards. I am not argueing that under ideal, optimal conditions any of the plates can do their job.

But if i were to run around on my Guard with those folks or even the people at my level of play I cannot afford to just slap together any group..........yet I see new SKs with base gear, fabled weapons and AD3s do so everyday.

WoE is another example.....this is a zone technically designed for people not in the best of the best raid gear. Ive seen over and over a freshly minted SK, barely 180AAs, a few Masters, mix of T2 and instance fabled gear, with less than optimal raid construction single tank the zone with very lilttle trouble. I have yet to see a Guard under those conditions be able to do the same.

While even at my level of play.....200AAs, decent gear, years of experience I know if I could put together the correct raid I could probably single tank the zone....I garantee it would not go as smooth as with the above mentioned SK.

I am sorry, there is something fundamentally wrong/broken with how well SKs regardless of gear or experience are able to perform. SKs needed some attention pre-TSO.......what they got and what they have been allowed to become post-TSO was simply too much.

But yeah as for the OP and this thread.......i would have to see their respective gear, have a little experience seeing them both MT raids to know what is what..........all things equal the better player should of course win out....IN ALL CASES not just the very top.

Bruener · 10-21-2009, 05:50 PM

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

I am sorry, there is something fundamentally wrong/broken with how well SKs regardless of gear or experience are able to perform. SKs needed some attention pre-TSO.......what they got and what they have been allowed to become post-TSO was simply too much.

Just real quick wanted to respond to this particular statement. Why is it such a tunnel vision on SKs atm? I mean do people not realize that Paladins has better hate, more survivability, and can DPS almost just as much? Zerkers create almost just as much hate and just as good, if not better, survivability, and only slightly less DPS?

No, they don't focus on those classes because honestly they are rolling in the same spot they always have. The only reason SKs come to the fore-front is because of the condition they were in Pre-TSO. I mean really, do you guys not play with Paladins and Zerkers? Yes, there are a lot of people that rolled SKs, probably because hardly anybody was rolling them before. Add them to their list of Paladin/Zerker/Guard alts. I mean, I guess it could be because SKs are actually cool to play. The idea of being an evil knight that sucks life from their enemies is kind of appealing to people....especially now that they actually do that.

RafaelSmith · 10-21-2009, 10:37 PM

Bruener wrote:

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:
I am sorry, there is something fundamentally wrong/broken with how well SKs regardless of gear or experience are able to perform. SKs needed some attention pre-TSO.......what they got and what they have been allowed to become post-TSO was simply too much.
Just real quick wanted to respond to this particular statement. Why is it such a tunnel vision on SKs atm? I mean do people not realize that Paladins has better hate, more survivability, and can DPS almost just as much? Zerkers create almost just as much hate and just as good, if not better, survivability, and only slightly less DPS?
No, they don't focus on those classes because honestly they are rolling in the same spot they always have. The only reason SKs come to the fore-front is because of the condition they were in Pre-TSO. I mean really, do you guys not play with Paladins and Zerkers? Yes, there are a lot of people that rolled SKs, probably because hardly anybody was rolling them before. Add them to their list of Paladin/Zerker/Guard alts. I mean, I guess it could be because SKs are actually cool to play. The idea of being an evil knight that sucks life from their enemies is kind of appealing to people....especially now that they actually do that.

Yes I have run with Zerkers and Paladins.....some very good one and well geared ones.....as before when decked out and in a top formed raid they do the job just as well as any of the others.

Below that while Paladins do have good aggro they dont do while having the DPS of an SK.....SKs often that are in lesser gear.

Zerkers ive run with can put out some nice DPS but at a big loss to surviveability.......something about not being able to put out top DPS while using a shield like some others can.

The tunnel vision on SKs is because they are able to match up to the others with far less gear, far less experience and AAs.

All things being equal....when I run with a Zerker, Guard or Pally I have to watch what I do as a DPS class....I have to actually take part in helping the MT hold aggro. When its an SK.....I don't.....i dont even have to target thru him.......I often for kicks dont even have to put up my hate xfer.....nobody is the wiser.

Gonzo550 · 10-25-2009, 10:04 PM

well i'm raiding on a poorly geared wizard and not liking it. I get one-shotted most of the time and my dps is worse than my guard (I could hit 8k a lot). the pali i was replaced with got replaced a few days later by another well geared sk. I'm happy to see a lot of folks have also seen the replacement problem. I started a zerker (got a lot of gear left over from my guard that now isn't attuned since the heirloom change) im surprised to see the changes at just low levels. The proc heal is kinda nice. Can't wait to get a myth and rock the house with 100% AE. I wish we could get some word from SOE in the issue other than the exec direct admitting to me that guards needed help. he didn't say we'd get it

Nicholai24 · 10-26-2009, 11:31 PM

Every time I harmtouch the last few % off a raid named in TSO, I feel like I'm putting another nail in the Guardian class's coffin.

Feels good, man.

TheSpin · 10-27-2009, 03:25 AM

Hold the Phone!

I think the Developerss know tank balance is a bit screwed up right now, but it's such a major issue that they have decided to put a lot of time into fixing it and won't have the solution in game until the expansion hits. I'm not saying it's right; I'm just saying you shouldn't give up hope.

10-18-2009, 01:50 PM	#7
Vlahkmaak Server: Venekor Guild: Opus Dei Rank: Captain Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Yucaipa, CA Posts: 1,213	Enoe wrote: I loled 1. I know high end guids who uses guardians as MT still - and these guards do amazing job - maybe you were just too weak to stand up to the task? 2. All KOS, EOF, ROK - guardians were tanking kings w/o no contest from other tank classes - did you think for a moment how sk/zerks felt back then? Again many guilds raided back then with 2 guardians as MT/OT not even considering other tanks. 3. You didnt pay attantion to changes in the game. I myself played guardian succesfully for 3 years being MT/OT on raids. On november last year i started SK (my main job was OTing) because i knew game will change and new type of tank will be needed in rooster as non mt. In january this year my sk was raid ready with myth and 200 aa - guess what i didnt lose my spot in raid, just replaced one toon with other and still do same job OTing. 4. Tanks are gear dependable so whos fault is it your gear sux? And other tank, sk by chance, is a lot better geared? Enoe, 1.) You know alot more about the game than to leave a response like this. You know guards are only in these spots becuase they have always been there and these guilds re a small sampling of the raid community. you know guardians are to dependent on dirges, coercers, and swashiesy/assassins to miantain consistent hate vs dps classes. you know any scrub SK can rip aggro of your guardian too. 2.) Yes guardians were MT and OT choice in previous expansions and many guards questioned this - we requested balance be brought to the other tanks so they could effectivelly OT. Most guards wanted SKs given some love to boost them up what they got was an unholy infusion of power. You gave up your guardian not so much to keep your raid spot becuase you knew guardians pale in comparison to crusaders in TO heroic content - unlike guards they dont require a dirge and a coercer and a scout transfer - they are great stand alone tanks. sure these classes add to their capability but are not needed. My scrub pally in only vampire bane gear holds aggro through most TSO content against very good myth warlocks and assassins and other classes - multiples in grp too. You know a guard cannot claim the same. If DPS classes do not understand how a guard works then one of them is going to pull encounter aggro w/o a proper set up grp for a guardian. Crusaders do ot require proper set ups to get the job done faster. 3.) Gear for gear an equally geared solo crusader can out DPS, out aggro, and out survive a guardian in PVE and PVP. All gear being equal and without appropriate support classes the tank of choice is the SK then the pally over a guardian. With proper support classes the crusaders remain more thn viable MT choices, OT choices, and heroic content choices. Guardians need to be given back a reason to exist. I play mine because unlike othersI am to dog headed to stop playing him. sure I play pally, bruiser, and sk too but I love my guardian and when I have a proper grp there is nothing I cannot do on him however I know, as do you Enoe, that i could do the same thing FASTER on my crusader. __________________ Obin 92 Iksar Necro Opus Dei Nagafen Vlahkmaak 92 Troll Guardian Nagafen Dwyrm 92 Dwarf Paladin Nagafen Shoofaug 92 Iksar bruiser Nagafen Vlah 92 Troll Inqy Nagafen Vlahk 50 SK Nagafen Glavlahnus 92 Woodelf Ranger, betrayed and back again Cructik 92 TROLL BL Nagafen

10-18-2009, 06:30 PM	#8
Evette23 Loremaster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 168	Enoe wrote: @netty just go to old pre tso topics here or flames and u will see many discussions what tank should be on raid back then. In more then 50% of raid guilds it was duo of guardians as mt/ot, and in old content it worked great. So yea guards were tanking kings in these days. Who cares what is was like in RoK, EoF, ? This is TSO now. Any plate fighter can tank anything in the game, if you think somehow guardians are better in some way than another plate fighter, then lol indeed.

10-18-2009, 07:44 PM	#9
Netty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 227	Enoe wrote: @netty just go to old pre tso topics here or flames and u will see many discussions what tank should be on raid back then. In more then 50% of raid guilds it was duo of guardians as mt/ot, and in old content it worked great. So yea guards were tanking kings in these days. LOL to that. There was like 1 - 3 guilds back in rok that rolled with 2 guards. Even our SK tanked VP back in rok fine. woot? a sk no way.. yes way... The fact that most of the other tanks wanted to be the number 1 MT and not give up anything els of their strong sides. Yeah i can agree with you that the first Guard myth was Uber and made guards wow. But how long did they have it befor the other fighter where crying for nerfs? And what are guards stuck with now? junk and the rest still got their OP weapons... Kings of tanking... Kings of MT raids. Yes that is what a guard should be. Thats the idea of a guard in the first place. The Most Defensiv tank you know... Even at the start of ROK so many zerks betrayed to guards since AD did suck duto them. Does it suck? No its not even close to suck... Its the best Defensiv buff in the game even with 100% Power. Get your facts man.

10-19-2009, 12:42 PM	#12
Netty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 227	Enoe wrote: Netty relax i fully agree they made guards very weak with TSO. I loved my guard when i played him but now compare to my sk he is just a joke. In fact now guard can be only mt on raids, but he need to be really good one skill/gear wise and problem is other plate tanks can do same job w/o much problems as well. At oting guardian sux, in instances he sux even more, not mention pvp... edit: and dont laugh just read old topics on forums about raid tanking. OFC there were zerks, sk, palys even brawlers who did MT/OT job back in kos/eof/rok. Majority were guardians still like 70% raid tanks were guardians and rest all other 5 classes. Was it fair? NO!!!(even if i was one of these guards) Now if u look at raid setups, especially TSO content can be tank hungry (up to 4 tanks in setup) almost all tanks share same amount of spots. I agree that most tanks can be MT and OT, in tso guard can be only mt so if he will not get this possition he is out. In your post u sound like scouts from pvp servers - they owned all other classes b4 tso. Now everscout is over and they got their buts kicked by classes they used to kill without thinking. So they crying what happened? why we r not on the top of food-chain anymore? You sound the same. Perma raid spot was taken away from guardians and u cry same as these scouts. Guardian's Myth is a problem cause it sux big time now, if u can get same proc from raid jewelery why the hell it is still called mythical? Maybe start talking to devs about Myth 2.0 in next expansion? Dunno but i dont think it is right place and topic about mythical discussion. I dont cry at all. Im pointing out on things you state in your post as wrong or right. Guards had the MT spot on raids. Thats guard. with out it well the class is kinda pointless. Guards never owned any other fighters even in rok. Any of the tanks could get it done. It was easier to MT with a guard back in rok. Look at the trash most of it is singel target. look at expansions befor rok.. It was mostly the lack of aoe fights that made guards look so over the edge in rok. Myths? there wont be any more myths from what i have heard and asking for the guard myth to be fixed... The thread will be locked in a day or two.. And if not.. well i dont think they care at all.

10-19-2009, 01:47 PM	#13
Vlahkmaak Server: Venekor Guild: Opus Dei Rank: Captain Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Yucaipa, CA Posts: 1,213	Enoe is correct - alot of guilds ran 2 guards becuase of the nature of those older raids. As their was little AOE content (Harla Darla is the most massive old world AOE content I can recall off ahnd if you did the massive pull strat) guardians were king of this single target content in these old expansions. The old expansions Enoe talks about are legitamate becuase they illustrate the problem. Hell, I did not want a SK on my raid force till RoK and I had several very good SKs in my guild. Tubby, Carnes, and Paxton were great SKs. Our old guild leader rerolled guard from SK for raiding becuase guards were superior on raids and could do all heroic content just fine. When AOE spec'd we could pull several trash and get zones done as quickly as crusaders back then as there was not much aoe content. SKs and brawlers suffered serious issues - crusaders generally had very poor avoidance check most of the time and bad block and brawlers while always getting high avoidance suffered from poor mitigation so when they did get hit they got hit. Now I tanked most old world content on a bruiser so I know it can be done but on the guard it was always much easier. Many believe that the new x-pac is gonna leave guards where they are at while brawlers are brought up to the level of crusaders. I am gonna say zerks are not quite there yet but with 100% aoe are darn close. If the plan is to leave guards in a deteriorated state and fix other spots becuase the intent is to give us back our sole reason to exist - raid MT then I am fore with it. Six + more months of slogging. Currently this is not an issue for me because I have some very nice gear. While not through Avatars or last TSO boss mobs I have progressed through most of TSO b4 guild deterirated a few mos ago (and finally transitioned to Aion). I can tank any of the instances and hold aggro - becomes a bear in outter guk with warlocks but not to bad if they understand how guards work compared to sks. I remain dependend on the holy trinity for aggro though. With a perfect set up grp their is nothing a guardian cannot do. New guardians or guardians that were not in a MT position for past 2 years or alt guards with looting rights are not gonna be able to do this very well if at all as gear aquisition goes for them beyond TSO. They are going to be starting the new x-pac significantly under geared, under played (time on target on your tank is invaluable - even if you have done an encounter on a dps//healer it is typically important to have tanked the encounter 1-2x to understand the zone well). And the guardian community will be under abilited for hate control, especially blue aoe hate control. I would trade AOE damage for blue hate but current mechanics are damage = hate. AoE zones are much more fun on the crusader - it is real work on a guardian. Not so much on a crusader. The main problem with this is that fewer guards translates to fewer members of the general community knowing their role in a group when grouped with class a,b,c. I come from old school eq1 where the rule of thumb was aggro is a two way street: mmeaning if your pulling aggro it is not neccesarily the tanks fault - you have to look at what your doing. The current game mechanics though and general game population not only do not understand this aggro rule but scoff at it. As any scrub SK can through up sacrament and other immediate 100% aggro grabs wizzues can open with Ice comet they expect to do the same when guardians are tanking. The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail. In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again. __________________ Obin 92 Iksar Necro Opus Dei Nagafen Vlahkmaak 92 Troll Guardian Nagafen Dwyrm 92 Dwarf Paladin Nagafen Shoofaug 92 Iksar bruiser Nagafen Vlah 92 Troll Inqy Nagafen Vlahk 50 SK Nagafen Glavlahnus 92 Woodelf Ranger, betrayed and back again Cructik 92 TROLL BL Nagafen

10-15-2009, 11:37 PM	#1
Gonzo550 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 115	nothing new here really but in raids, I've talked with several guards and they (and myself) have been replaced with SKs. I've been asked to play my wiz instead of tank. Thanks SOE. I should have slugged the exec director when I had the chance at Dragoncon.

10-16-2009, 05:34 PM	#2
Aull Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,429	It is not the exec directors fault for your guilds choice of a mt raid tank. To many variables to contend with on that. You obviously play your wizard well other wise your guild wouldn't ask you to come to raids. Be thankful you are still part of the raid roster and not booted from the raid force on both toons. So if I was in your shoes I wouldn't feel to bad. I am sure if the sk isn't able to make raid you would still be able to tank on your guard. Btw not trying to flame here. Thanks.

10-17-2009, 02:04 PM	#3
Gonzo550 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 115	so I should be happy that the character I've spent three years building up has been pushed aside? I admit the SK they found was better equiped than me (he has six t4 armor pieces when we can't even kill mobs that drop the first three t4 pieces) So I am upset first off over them wanting to bail on the person that has stood by them and tanked for them for months, turning me out for someone who already has stuff they won't have to work for. This is of course the curse of the tank, IMO. If a raid can find a tank to carry them higher without having to work for it, they won't hesitate to ditch and run. it's greed. But at the same time, I believe it is SOE and the exec director who knows they broke guardians and they have no intentions of fixing the class. I won't restate the posts that are here already but suffice it to say, I'm not happy having to level 50 more AAs, get all new gear, etc and abandon what I've done all because of a little thing called crit mit. And that is SOE's fault. What I want is pay-back for the pain SOE has caused me. Simply leaving the game isn't enough

10-18-2009, 10:07 AM	#4
Enoe Loremaster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 375	I loled 1. I know high end guids who uses guardians as MT still - and these guards do amazing job - maybe you were just too weak to stand up to the task? 2. All KOS, EOF, ROK - guardians were tanking kings w/o no contest from other tank classes - did you think for a moment how sk/zerks felt back then? Again many guilds raided back then with 2 guardians as MT/OT not even considering other tanks. 3. You didnt pay attantion to changes in the game. I myself played guardian succesfully for 3 years being MT/OT on raids. On november last year i started SK (my main job was OTing) because i knew game will change and new type of tank will be needed in rooster as non mt. In january this year my sk was raid ready with myth and 200 aa - guess what i didnt lose my spot in raid, just replaced one toon with other and still do same job OTing. 4. Tanks are gear dependable so whos fault is it your gear sux? And other tank, sk by chance, is a lot better geared?

10-18-2009, 11:55 AM	#5
Netty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 227	Im getting tiered of hearing that guards have been kings of tanking? Guards had the MT spot on raids. Any other tank can OT 1000 times better than a guard. Is the MT spot everything in this game? No If a guard isent MTing he will be put aside thats te way it is. Since they are so weak in the other spots that can be filled. Myself wasent replaced at all. On the harder mobs guards > Sk but that can be sorted out with gear. The biggest let down to guards atm is zerks and pallys. Zerks as a better vertion of a guard and pally As the best tank to mitigate dmg. If ppl like you keep claiming things like this we will end up with one thing. One class called fighter. Face it man guards need to be king at something to balance up the lack in other spots. I dont have a problem at all with other tanks being able to MT. In my guild i mostly got to sit out for the harder fights The easy stuff goes so much easier and faster with the other tank classes. And you know what? the other tanks can tank the harder stuff as fine as me... And on some they are so much better like Yis. I still can get it done... ofcs i can im still a awsome tank. But if you look at balance? There still is a long way to go... And what do we know... next expansion brawlers might be the nr1 tank for MTing.

10-18-2009, 01:43 PM	#6
Enoe Loremaster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 375	@netty just go to old pre tso topics here or flames and u will see many discussions what tank should be on raid back then. In more then 50% of raid guilds it was duo of guardians as mt/ot, and in old content it worked great. So yea guards were tanking kings in these days.

10-18-2009, 11:19 PM	#10
Enoe Loremaster Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 375	Netty relax i fully agree they made guards very weak with TSO. I loved my guard when i played him but now compare to my sk he is just a joke. In fact now guard can be only mt on raids, but he need to be really good one skill/gear wise and problem is other plate tanks can do same job w/o much problems as well. At oting guardian sux, in instances he sux even more, not mention pvp... edit: and dont laugh just read old topics on forums about raid tanking. OFC there were zerks, sk, palys even brawlers who did MT/OT job back in kos/eof/rok. Majority were guardians still like 70% raid tanks were guardians and rest all other 5 classes. Was it fair? NO!!!(even if i was one of these guards) Now if u look at raid setups, especially TSO content can be tank hungry (up to 4 tanks in setup) almost all tanks share same amount of spots. I agree that most tanks can be MT and OT, in tso guard can be only mt so if he will not get this possition he is out. In your post u sound like scouts from pvp servers - they owned all other classes b4 tso. Now everscout is over and they got their buts kicked by classes they used to kill without thinking. So they crying what happened? why we r not on the top of food-chain anymore? You sound the same. Perma raid spot was taken away from guardians and u cry same as these scouts. Guardian's Myth is a problem cause it sux big time now, if u can get same proc from raid jewelery why the hell it is still called mythical? Maybe start talking to devs about Myth 2.0 in next expansion? Dunno but i dont think it is right place and topic about mythical discussion.

10-19-2009, 05:02 AM	#11
Evette23 Loremaster Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 168	It's hard to take anything you say about tanking seriously when you bounce around flavor of the expansion classes and ditch your guard to play a PvP shadowknight. I'm sure you enjoy harm touching noobz in teh face... and mass pulling rooms, clicking grave sac, and going to take a thick dump while your group kills the mobs. By your little scout rant I wouldn't be surprised if you have a brig/swash in your bag of toons that you enjoyed owning face with in their glory days. If guardians are not the premier choice for a raid tank, they might as well be deleted from the game along with brawlers. As far as tanking goes, guardians excell at nothing and are out-classed by every other plate fighter in every aspect of the game, except maybe some select raid content where the raid is too busy executing scripts and learning an encounter to be doing any real dps and ripping aggro. Can't hold hate with 3 healers, d-stance, sword & board on most content... so if you're going to roll with 2 healers or in o-stance or duel wield, might as well just throw a crusader in instead cuz they will have more survivability and better threat control. Don't even try to OT with a guard or solo instances or pwn noobz in pvp. Dedicated guards can get a group through heroic content although still being the worst choice of plate fighter. Probably out-classed by rogue tanks in easier instances even. Guards are only really useful in one single aspect of all the game's content, and 9 times out of 10 (I can pull stats out of my brown eye too) are not even the best choice of the four plate fighters. For what it's worth I don't even play EQ2 anymore and haven't played my guardian since June or July. While I do still find it interesting to read up on the game I played for four (five?) years, I really could care less what they do with their game at this point. Just stating my fairly un-biased opinion that if you are using a guard to do anything at this point in the expansion.... well... that's about as useful as taking a summoner, brawler, or druid. There are better options for 99.9% of the content. It's the player not the class, but a good player using a mediocre class is not getting the most out of his role.

10-19-2009, 02:04 PM	#14
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote: The main problem with this is that fewer guards translates to fewer members of the general community knowing their role in a group when grouped with class a,b,c. I come from old school eq1 where the rule of thumb was aggro is a two way street: mmeaning if your pulling aggro it is not neccesarily the tanks fault - you have to look at what your doing. The current game mechanics though and general game population not only do not understand this aggro rule but scoff at it. As any scrub SK can through up sacrament and other immediate 100% aggro grabs wizzues can open with Ice comet they expect to do the same when guardians are tanking. The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail. QFE. This is exactly the situation I find myself in. I needed to witness it for myself so rolled up a Assassin, got him some adequate gear then proceeded to start doing pugs with variety of tanks.........old school SKs, new scrub FOTM SKs, guards, zerkers, yada yada. I can be grouped with a top end Guard or new Guard and I have to play smart, watch my aggro, etc. I can play with scrub FOTM SK #1000000 with his shiny new set of T1 or purchased T3 and can do whatever I want on whichever target I feel like without anything happening to me. Ive actually wanted to start putting my hate xfer on someone else just so the scrub SK has to maybe work a little harder =P SOE went way to far in buffing/fixing SKs..this has resulted in a lazy playerbase which only hurts the good players(good Sks included) in the long run. I actually have better aggro control on my Guard today than I did back in RoK.....yet look like a total idiot today because DPS forgot that they are as much responsible for aggro than I am.....Can't really blame them because I have seen how having SKs around ever corner able to easy-mode tank instances has made me forget my part as a DPS class in aggro. __________________

10-19-2009, 07:27 PM	#15
Netty Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 227	Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote: Enoe is correct - alot of guilds ran 2 guards becuase of the nature of those older raids. As their was little AOE content (Harla Darla is the most massive old world AOE content I can recall off ahnd if you did the massive pull strat) guardians were king of this single target content in these old expansions. The old expansions Enoe talks about are legitamate becuase they illustrate the problem. Hell, I did not want a SK on my raid force till RoK and I had several very good SKs in my guild. Tubby, Carnes, and Paxton were great SKs. Our old guild leader rerolled guard from SK for raiding becuase guards were superior on raids and could do all heroic content just fine. When AOE spec'd we could pull several trash and get zones done as quickly as crusaders back then as there was not much aoe content. SKs and brawlers suffered serious issues - crusaders generally had very poor avoidance check most of the time and bad block and brawlers while always getting high avoidance suffered from poor mitigation so when they did get hit they got hit. Now I tanked most old world content on a bruiser so I know it can be done but on the guard it was always much easier. Many believe that the new x-pac is gonna leave guards where they are at while brawlers are brought up to the level of crusaders. I am gonna say zerks are not quite there yet but with 100% aoe are darn close. If the plan is to leave guards in a deteriorated state and fix other spots becuase the intent is to give us back our sole reason to exist - raid MT then I am fore with it. Six + more months of slogging. Currently this is not an issue for me because I have some very nice gear. While not through Avatars or last TSO boss mobs I have progressed through most of TSO b4 guild deterirated a few mos ago (and finally transitioned to Aion). I can tank any of the instances and hold aggro - becomes a bear in outter guk with warlocks but not to bad if they understand how guards work compared to sks. I remain dependend on the holy trinity for aggro though. With a perfect set up grp their is nothing a guardian cannot do. New guardians or guardians that were not in a MT position for past 2 years or alt guards with looting rights are not gonna be able to do this very well if at all as gear aquisition goes for them beyond TSO. They are going to be starting the new x-pac significantly under geared, under played (time on target on your tank is invaluable - even if you have done an encounter on a dps//healer it is typically important to have tanked the encounter 1-2x to understand the zone well). And the guardian community will be under abilited for hate control, especially blue aoe hate control. I would trade AOE damage for blue hate but current mechanics are damage = hate. AoE zones are much more fun on the crusader - it is real work on a guardian. Not so much on a crusader. The main problem with this is that fewer guards translates to fewer members of the general community knowing their role in a group when grouped with class a,b,c. I come from old school eq1 where the rule of thumb was aggro is a two way street: mmeaning if your pulling aggro it is not neccesarily the tanks fault - you have to look at what your doing. The current game mechanics though and general game population not only do not understand this aggro rule but scoff at it. As any scrub SK can through up sacrament and other immediate 100% aggro grabs wizzues can open with Ice comet they expect to do the same when guardians are tanking. The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail. In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again. Im not a new guard at all. All tho he is no retiered and replaced by my zerk. I have been raid MTing since kos. started off as a zerk betrayed to guard in midd EoF. I tank instances fine i put on a few MB items and roll with my agi spec. I like you to name a few of the guild that where raiding with 2 guards. Any guild raiding with 2 guards havent got a good zerk/pally. SK:s yeah they where abit after befor butthey still could get the job done. My guard is now collecting dust since i got tiered of being put aside till the harder stuff. Any of the other plate tanks cando it faster... thats the way it is. I have 6 tso set and have raided most of TSO befor i retiered him. You know why? Why should a play a guard when a zerk have kinda much the same tools and even better AD that kinda much blows away any tool guards have. Atm if you are new to raiding and dont have to much gear its better to use a guard as MT since then you can see the diff. When you starting to gear up the diff is close to none.. thats the sad part of it. Zerks is atm a better vertion of guards. Zerks is aswell a great working class. Pallys are kinda much the same better in long terms of taking dmg as they are the tank that can mitigate the most dmg atm have the highest block powerfull wards and heals to save them if something goes wrong. Other stuff that ppl dont under and as myself closed my eyes to is the fact for my guard to work on aggro i most of the time have to DW even with a great set up. DPS classes are putting out to big numbers these days. And i have found it very nice when mobs aoe alot since then i have time to build up aggro even with a shield. Is it right that a crusader should out parse a warrior DW when they use a shield? and still have 100% better aggro controll? I am not trying to say that most guilds dident use aguard as mt befor kinda much all of them did. But 2 guards? thats rare or only stupid. I never said anything that i couldent do that or that. ofcs i have tanked all heroic tso instances atm but if i have a well geared warlock im kinda much on aggro they cant do the same dps as they use to. As you said they dont know how a guard works. And think sine the other tanks can do it the guard should be able to aswell. And again to end this... I dont have a problem at all that other tank classes can MT abit easier now all tho the gap is to close atm sine the guard is weak on the other spots. And this is what ppl have to try and understand...

10-20-2009, 12:01 PM	#16
Yimway Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 9,707	Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote: The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail. In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again. dps = teh fun Its not going to change from the dps focus, cause if it does, its the death of the game. For far too many people, this is the enjoyment of the game, its been this way too long and people are not going to adapt this late in a game. Its my opinion that if you are a guard and you don't have the level 80 alt ready to go for SF yet, well, you've got 3 more months to get it ready. When we all start over on the same starting point, remaining a guard will be an exceptionally poor decision. __________________

10-20-2009, 01:22 PM	#17
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Atan@Unrest wrote: Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote: The game has turned into a default all out DPS contenst between dps classes and tanks and even some healer classes that only have to heal minor times during the fight and can dps most of the fight. With a decent crusader tank my inqy only has to put up 1 reactive and then can go balls to wall dps rest of fight on multiple trash mobs too. Heals not needed. I can do the same on my guard in lessor TSO zones with good grp too but generally most guardians cannot do this. Part is a misunderstanding of how to play the class and the rest is a continued over reliance on other classes for hate - especially the need for a dirge and coercer and swashy/assassin if avail. In this sense we have been replaced by the other plate tanks. We will have to wait for the new AA tables to see what the future of the guardian community holds: Four more months and we will recieve our answer - I expect that we will see fewer and fewer heroic tanking guardians if guardians are defualted back as the only logical MT choice but I do not think that will ever be the case again. dps = teh fun Its not going to change from the dps focus, cause if it does, its the death of the game. For far too many people, this is the enjoyment of the game, its been this way too long and people are not going to adapt this late in a game. Its my opinion that if you are a guard and you don't have the level 80 alt ready to go for SF yet, well, you've got 3 more months to get it ready. When we all start over on the same starting point, remaining a guard will be an exceptionally poor decision. Sadly that is pretty much everything in a nutshell. SOE has been very clear in what direction they want the game...especially the "role" of tanking to go. I rolled an ALT mostly to sorta prove some things to myself. I had only viewed the stat of fighters and such from the Guard perspective and wanted to make sure I was not simply jumping on "nerf SK" or "Guards are [Removed for Content]" bandwagons. I had to go out and see first had what its like as a non-tank to group with the various fighters with various level of gear. Ive seen first hand which are "balanced", which are struggling and which are downright OP. If come expansion my only choice is to focus on an alt or quit...its going to be a tough one because Guard and tanking is still my preferred class/role of choice. __________________

10-21-2009, 12:03 PM	#18
Ristan Server: Crushbone Guild: Contempt Rank: Alt Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 229	Being a raid leader, guild leader, and a person who loves the guardian class (my main alt is a guard)...unfortunately there are a few realities that came to light for me. I have been running raids since the KOS days. In my first guild we had a zerker tank. This worked ok in KoS, not so much in EoF or Rok. When I started my new guild a year ago, we aquired a Guardian tank, we have a pally as an OT. We started in RoK, the tank did well, but had severe agro issues. Our dps was afraid to dps because the mobs would come after them. As we geared up it got better (the guard had coercer/dirge in group) but it was always riding the line on agro. We got through RoK up to trakanon, and then switched to TSO. We got through the first two mobs in tombs, and the first named in palace...then the Guard decided to leave the guild. We had our SK step up to the MT plate. He had almost no gear, just his myth, and so we got him t3, threw him in the same group as the guard, and 0 agro issues. The guard had better gear. The SK is up at the parse with the dps classes, and our dps can go full out and the mob doesn't even twitch. We ended up progressing further in 3 months than we did in the previous 8 months before that. The SK was slightly harder to keep up, according to my healers, but not so much so, it merely came down to changing up the casting order of some of their heals I play a guardian, who has decent gear (no myth yet). I have to take hate transfer classes with me wherever I go, and the majority of the time I loose good groups to SKs. To me, this is how the tank should be: Max Defensive tank: Guardian Hybrid Defense/DPS: Berzerker/Paladin Max DPS tank: SK. and it may be like this in theory, however in a game that is dominated by DPS = Hate, the guard falls flat on it's face. Doesn't matter how much of a punch you can take if the mob isn't punching you. Suggested fixes: Make SKs squishier, you don't necessairly have to nerf their dps or abilities, just make them take more damage so they can't stand side to side with a guard against a raid mob without some severely good playing. Give Guards some more dps while WEARING their sheild, just some to beable to manage agro they don't have to be DPS kings. Make taunts count, give guard/zerkers higher taunt amounts than SKs/Pallys. Make it so Warriors (zerker/guard) are the desired MTs in the game. Make it so Crusaders (pally/SK) are the desired OTs in the game. everyone has a spot on the raid then, until then, every jack harry and sam on the server has an SK. and while the SKs tank, dps forgets how to play, and guards get left int he closet. __________________

10-21-2009, 02:15 PM	#19
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Seriously? This whole thread is about somebody who plays a Guard that got replaced as MT by somebody that plays a SK that has better gear? Not to mention that odds are it is probably somebody that knows how to tank well. Somebody recently posted the numbers on raiding guilds roster and the % of each class. Guess what, Plate fighters were pretty equal across the board, SKs and Guards almost having the same number of each class represented on raid rosters. Now go take a look at raiding guilds and % of MTs that are Guards out there. It is probably still 90% Guards MT. Take it even further and go check out lead progression guilds and see what they are using as MTs. Yes there are a lot of good players out there in every fighter type. The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period. __________________

10-21-2009, 02:40 PM	#20
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	Trolls Trolls every where Trolls.. U can not deny the facts Troll! __________________

10-21-2009, 03:23 PM	#21
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Bruener wrote: The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period. Yes I agree with that. In an ideal world where the classes were balanced properlyy that would be the only measure that should matter. But the current state of the plates is such that a not-so-good Crusader in average gear is often better than most "good/experienced" Guards. Ive witnessed this first hand playing my alt......I have done zones and raids with top notch Guards in top notch gear and top notch Sks....no difference whatsover..both did well which is what I would expect if things were balanced.......but...then comes the kicker....ive done most of those zones with some rather newb, not so well geared SKs and "lesser" Guards and the difference is night and day......in terms of fufilling the role of MT the scrub SK was not that much different than the top-notch....yet when comparing the "lesser" guard to any of the others it was sad how bad and how frustrating the group was. For the most part all these tanks are considered good and experienced.....a few obvious idiot FOTM Sks that I just ignore. The only differences really were the core class they play...thats where things are broken IMO. Plates maybe balanced at one xtreme end of the spectrum but are more and more out of balance thru the rest. So when I QQ that SKs are OP.........not really talking about the top-notch ones..im talking about the class as a whole which currently allows bad players to look good even when compared against good players of the other fighter classes. Thats not healthy for the game or the class. I would think you would not want your class to be one where idiots and bad players are allowed to look as good as they currently do and can MT for any group regardless of skill or gear differences. And while looking at guild rosters does show some information is not a very good way to claim "balance". __________________

10-21-2009, 03:39 PM	#22
Undorett Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 663	Almost every raid guild still uses a guardian to MT, however I believe this is because many people still think Guardians are the best tank out there. It is simply not true anymore. While I do not remember coming to the forums and begging for SKs to be buffed in KOS or ROK, I didn't come here to kick them while they were down either. Yeah, it's the SKs time to shine, who knows, maybe next expansion will be the Bruiser expansion. SOE has yet to get tank balance right, and I have no faith they will ever get it right. In expansions past, Guardians were used to power through things at the begining, and near the end of that expansion when everything was starting to get easy, you would have your higher DPS tanks tanking everything just to get it dead faster. That seems to be what has happened in TSO, it just feels early because the expansion is late this year. I think the single biggest problem facing guardians these days is agro on easy mobs. I have never had a problem with "hard" mobs and agro control, only ones that are stupidly easy which you should be in offensive stance dual wieding to kill. It is the only way to maintain a slight agro edge. Part 1 of the tank revamp went live with TSO, giving all fighters more survivability to bring them more in line with guardians. Part 2 of the tank revamp was supposed to be the hate revamp, which is supposed to come out with the next expansion...let's see if he can get it even remotely correct as we are in the largest need of more hate.

10-21-2009, 04:29 PM	#23
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Undorett wrote: Almost every raid guild still uses a guardian to MT, however I believe this is because many people still think Guardians are the best tank out there. It is simply not true anymore. While I do not remember coming to the forums and begging for SKs to be buffed in KOS or ROK, I didn't come here to kick them while they were down either. Yeah, it's the SKs time to shine, who knows, maybe next expansion will be the Bruiser expansion. SOE has yet to get tank balance right, and I have no faith they will ever get it right. In expansions past, Guardians were used to power through things at the begining, and near the end of that expansion when everything was starting to get easy, you would have your higher DPS tanks tanking everything just to get it dead faster. That seems to be what has happened in TSO, it just feels early because the expansion is late this year. I think the single biggest problem facing guardians these days is agro on easy mobs. I have never had a problem with "hard" mobs and agro control, only ones that are stupidly easy which you should be in offensive stance dual wieding to kill. It is the only way to maintain a slight agro edge. Part 1 of the tank revamp went live with TSO, giving all fighters more survivability to bring them more in line with guardians. Part 2 of the tank revamp was supposed to be the hate revamp, which is supposed to come out with the next expansion...let's see if he can get it even remotely correct as we are in the largest need of more hate. Honestly I think you nail it on the head. Guards have always been and still are the progressive tank of choice. Once mobs become trivial or farm status it is faster to do it with one of the other tanks. Or to be more accurate it is much easier to put in tank X in place and not feel much of a difference. All x-pacs were like this, barring RoK where Guard+Mythical was just ridiculous. Honestly we are to the point in the expansion that this would have been present in the past...the difference is that we are not going to see a new x-pac until February. However, there is still the argument that there is a brand new raid zone with tough mobs on Enraged that are progression mobs, and for a lot of guilds there is still plenty of progression out there....hence why the OPs guild wanted to use a better geared tank. __________________

10-21-2009, 04:35 PM	#24
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote: Bruener wrote: The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period. Yes I agree with that. In an ideal world where the classes were balanced properlyy that would be the only measure that should matter. But the current state of the plates is such that a not-so-good Crusader in average gear is often better than most "good/experienced" Guards. Ive witnessed this first hand playing my alt......I have done zones and raids with top notch Guards in top notch gear and top notch Sks....no difference whatsover..both did well which is what I would expect if things were balanced.......but...then comes the kicker....ive done most of those zones with some rather newb, not so well geared SKs and "lesser" Guards and the difference is night and day......in terms of fufilling the role of MT the scrub SK was not that much different than the top-notch....yet when comparing the "lesser" guard to any of the others it was sad how bad and how frustrating the group was. For the most part all these tanks are considered good and experienced.....a few obvious idiot FOTM Sks that I just ignore. The only differences really were the core class they play...thats where things are broken IMO. Plates maybe balanced at one xtreme end of the spectrum but are more and more out of balance thru the rest. So when I QQ that SKs are OP.........not really talking about the top-notch ones..im talking about the class as a whole which currently allows bad players to look good even when compared against good players of the other fighter classes. Thats not healthy for the game or the class. I would think you would not want your class to be one where idiots and bad players are allowed to look as good as they currently do and can MT for any group regardless of skill or gear differences. And while looking at guild rosters does show some information is not a very good way to claim "balance". And no I don't like how FoTM SKs have become. On the other hand I don't see these supposedly "uber" noob SKs. There isn't a SK I have ever played with that I haven't put them to shame....and it is even more obvious with all these people leveling a SK up in a couple weeks. They are terrible in most cases and mediocre at best. But than its not like it is rocket science runnign these group shard zones. You build up a group and with the DPS players are putting out these days and the amounts of healing somebody can do without very much thought a zone is cleared in no time and you could put a monkey that is playing a mage as MT and do just as well. In fact, there are a lot of cases where groups will roll without tanks and clear zones np. Heck, almost every zone can be duo'd now. But, this is about what the OP posted. He was replaced by somebody that out-geared him, which means he probably had more experience, and in all seriousness was probably just a better tank. Numbers don't lie, and top guilds use what works. __________________

10-21-2009, 05:28 PM	#25
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Bruener wrote: Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote: Bruener wrote: The good players deserve to take spots of people that aren't performing as well, period. Yes I agree with that. In an ideal world where the classes were balanced properlyy that would be the only measure that should matter. But the current state of the plates is such that a not-so-good Crusader in average gear is often better than most "good/experienced" Guards. Ive witnessed this first hand playing my alt......I have done zones and raids with top notch Guards in top notch gear and top notch Sks....no difference whatsover..both did well which is what I would expect if things were balanced.......but...then comes the kicker....ive done most of those zones with some rather newb, not so well geared SKs and "lesser" Guards and the difference is night and day......in terms of fufilling the role of MT the scrub SK was not that much different than the top-notch....yet when comparing the "lesser" guard to any of the others it was sad how bad and how frustrating the group was. For the most part all these tanks are considered good and experienced.....a few obvious idiot FOTM Sks that I just ignore. The only differences really were the core class they play...thats where things are broken IMO. Plates maybe balanced at one xtreme end of the spectrum but are more and more out of balance thru the rest. So when I QQ that SKs are OP.........not really talking about the top-notch ones..im talking about the class as a whole which currently allows bad players to look good even when compared against good players of the other fighter classes. Thats not healthy for the game or the class. I would think you would not want your class to be one where idiots and bad players are allowed to look as good as they currently do and can MT for any group regardless of skill or gear differences. And while looking at guild rosters does show some information is not a very good way to claim "balance". And no I don't like how FoTM SKs have become. On the other hand I don't see these supposedly "uber" noob SKs. There isn't a SK I have ever played with that I haven't put them to shame....and it is even more obvious with all these people leveling a SK up in a couple weeks. They are terrible in most cases and mediocre at best. But than its not like it is rocket science runnign these group shard zones. You build up a group and with the DPS players are putting out these days and the amounts of healing somebody can do without very much thought a zone is cleared in no time and you could put a monkey that is playing a mage as MT and do just as well. In fact, there are a lot of cases where groups will roll without tanks and clear zones np. Heck, almost every zone can be duo'd now. But, this is about what the OP posted. He was replaced by somebody that out-geared him, which means he probably had more experience, and in all seriousness was probably just a better tank. Numbers don't lie, and top guilds use what works. Again those that you normally play with might be able to do just that.....I have no doubt....ive had the priviledge of playing with some people from top and guilds that have far exceeded the gear needed to trivilize group content no matter what class they are......including Guards. I am not argueing that under ideal, optimal conditions any of the plates can do their job. But if i were to run around on my Guard with those folks or even the people at my level of play I cannot afford to just slap together any group..........yet I see new SKs with base gear, fabled weapons and AD3s do so everyday. WoE is another example.....this is a zone technically designed for people not in the best of the best raid gear. Ive seen over and over a freshly minted SK, barely 180AAs, a few Masters, mix of T2 and instance fabled gear, with less than optimal raid construction single tank the zone with very lilttle trouble. I have yet to see a Guard under those conditions be able to do the same. While even at my level of play.....200AAs, decent gear, years of experience I know if I could put together the correct raid I could probably single tank the zone....I garantee it would not go as smooth as with the above mentioned SK. I am sorry, there is something fundamentally wrong/broken with how well SKs regardless of gear or experience are able to perform. SKs needed some attention pre-TSO.......what they got and what they have been allowed to become post-TSO was simply too much. But yeah as for the OP and this thread.......i would have to see their respective gear, have a little experience seeing them both MT raids to know what is what..........all things equal the better player should of course win out....IN ALL CASES not just the very top. __________________

10-21-2009, 05:50 PM	#26
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote: I am sorry, there is something fundamentally wrong/broken with how well SKs regardless of gear or experience are able to perform. SKs needed some attention pre-TSO.......what they got and what they have been allowed to become post-TSO was simply too much. Just real quick wanted to respond to this particular statement. Why is it such a tunnel vision on SKs atm? I mean do people not realize that Paladins has better hate, more survivability, and can DPS almost just as much? Zerkers create almost just as much hate and just as good, if not better, survivability, and only slightly less DPS? No, they don't focus on those classes because honestly they are rolling in the same spot they always have. The only reason SKs come to the fore-front is because of the condition they were in Pre-TSO. I mean really, do you guys not play with Paladins and Zerkers? Yes, there are a lot of people that rolled SKs, probably because hardly anybody was rolling them before. Add them to their list of Paladin/Zerker/Guard alts. I mean, I guess it could be because SKs are actually cool to play. The idea of being an evil knight that sucks life from their enemies is kind of appealing to people....especially now that they actually do that. __________________

10-21-2009, 10:37 PM	#27
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	Bruener wrote: Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote: I am sorry, there is something fundamentally wrong/broken with how well SKs regardless of gear or experience are able to perform. SKs needed some attention pre-TSO.......what they got and what they have been allowed to become post-TSO was simply too much. Just real quick wanted to respond to this particular statement. Why is it such a tunnel vision on SKs atm? I mean do people not realize that Paladins has better hate, more survivability, and can DPS almost just as much? Zerkers create almost just as much hate and just as good, if not better, survivability, and only slightly less DPS? No, they don't focus on those classes because honestly they are rolling in the same spot they always have. The only reason SKs come to the fore-front is because of the condition they were in Pre-TSO. I mean really, do you guys not play with Paladins and Zerkers? Yes, there are a lot of people that rolled SKs, probably because hardly anybody was rolling them before. Add them to their list of Paladin/Zerker/Guard alts. I mean, I guess it could be because SKs are actually cool to play. The idea of being an evil knight that sucks life from their enemies is kind of appealing to people....especially now that they actually do that. Yes I have run with Zerkers and Paladins.....some very good one and well geared ones.....as before when decked out and in a top formed raid they do the job just as well as any of the others. Below that while Paladins do have good aggro they dont do while having the DPS of an SK.....SKs often that are in lesser gear. Zerkers ive run with can put out some nice DPS but at a big loss to surviveability.......something about not being able to put out top DPS while using a shield like some others can. The tunnel vision on SKs is because they are able to match up to the others with far less gear, far less experience and AAs. All things being equal....when I run with a Zerker, Guard or Pally I have to watch what I do as a DPS class....I have to actually take part in helping the MT hold aggro. When its an SK.....I don't.....i dont even have to target thru him.......I often for kicks dont even have to put up my hate xfer.....nobody is the wiser. __________________

10-25-2009, 10:04 PM	#28
Gonzo550 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 115	well i'm raiding on a poorly geared wizard and not liking it. I get one-shotted most of the time and my dps is worse than my guard (I could hit 8k a lot). the pali i was replaced with got replaced a few days later by another well geared sk. I'm happy to see a lot of folks have also seen the replacement problem. I started a zerker (got a lot of gear left over from my guard that now isn't attuned since the heirloom change) im surprised to see the changes at just low levels. The proc heal is kinda nice. Can't wait to get a myth and rock the house with 100% AE. I wish we could get some word from SOE in the issue other than the exec direct admitting to me that guards needed help. he didn't say we'd get it

10-26-2009, 11:31 PM	#29
Nicholai24 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 198	Every time I harmtouch the last few % off a raid named in TSO, I feel like I'm putting another nail in the Guardian class's coffin. Feels good, man.

10-27-2009, 03:25 AM	#30
TheSpin Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,587	Hold the Phone! I think the Developerss know tank balance is a bit screwed up right now, but it's such a major issue that they have decided to put a lot of time into fixing it and won't have the solution in game until the expansion hits. I'm not saying it's right; I'm just saying you shouldn't give up hope.