Once more.....shamans

[Csky]

id like to see mystics upgraded,  the cast times are too slow and the heal value is too low..leg bite should also SNARE the target. if a dog is biting someone on the leg it is gonna slow them down

[Vilesummon]

Nice thought on leg bite really.

[KatrinaDeath]

Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:

Nice thought on leg bite really.

100% Agree

[Greggthegrmreapr]

So with the changes to Coercers coming up does that mean that Shaman are closer to being looked at?

[convict]

Look for any major fixes just before release of aoc. Nothing before then.

[Oneira]

Genazu@Nagafen wrote:

id like to see mystics upgraded,  the cast times are too slow and the heal value is too low..leg bite should also SNARE the target. if a dog is biting someone on the leg it is gonna slow them down

You have hit the nail on the head and it's worth repeating so that SOE knows what is wrong with shamans--and there IS something very wrong with shamans.  1)   The cast times on our wards and heals are too slow.  period.2)   In relation to their slow cast times, our heals are the worst of the three priest classes.  Druid heals are MUCH better.Those two things make shamans one of the poor stepchild classes in pvp.  Any class with fast casting heals or a lot of dps will just take us down because our slow casting crap will never keep up with them.  Green-con druids can beat my mystic 50% of the time.  A furies' nukes cast faster than my frickin' heals and wards.It's getting really, really frustrating to continue to play a class with such long casting times.  If you want to fix us SOE, you have to:1) reduce our casting times by a third.  If you are unwilling to do that, then you better make our wards and heals do a HELLUVA lot more.2) forget the "increases max health" on our heal spells.  That is nothing.  Replace that value with a ward.

[dellaripa]

I'd be happy if they made it so I could actually get 1 ward off before I die.

1 STINKIN WARD IS ALL I ASK.

Then I'll be happy.  I'll still suck, but I'll be happy sucking.

[Zacarus]

I would love faster wards, and leg bite to snare, and all that.  Sound great, thumbs up.But my mystic has zero troubles 1v1 in tier 4.  For example, here's a parse from last night versus a warlock.  He's high dps right?  I was able to keep up, np.Both slayers, he was 36, I was 37.  I did not pre-ward.NAME                   START TIME      DURATION      DAMAGE      HEALED      EXT DPS      HITS    SWINGS      DMG TAKEN  {Warlock name} 9:12:41 PM      01:45             10429           462             97.47        102     116             2855       Wakanta             9:13:00 PM     01:28             2804            6896            26.21        43          64              9409       Kujo                    9:12:57 PM      00:02             51                  0                  0.48         1           2               1020 In what tier does it start getting bad for mystics? [[edited -- i have no idea how to paste the parse apparently]]

[rvbarton]

good post, and obviously a topic close to my heart.  I think Mystics need a serious looking at, in regards to their cast times vs heal/ward abilities in PVP.  It wouldn't hurt to look at the AA lines either.  If it were possible to follow an AA line to have reduced cast times or uninterruptible casting, I'd be a happy camper.  Also, if dogdog would snare when using legbite, that would definitely be a step in the right direction.  It's not a cureall, but definitely a step.  Oh, speaking of dogdog, weren't we supposed to receive an upgrade so the mutt didn't suck so bad?  I mean making it a bit more tougher and all?  Just my memory thinking that we were promised something but never received it?As for T8 PVP.  It's tough.  Solo'ing is doable, as long as you realize you are going to be dying and then rebuffing at least 1/2 of the time.

[KatrinaDeath]

Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:

I would love faster wards, and leg bite to snare, and all that.  Sound great, thumbs up.But my mystic has zero troubles 1v1 in tier 4.  For example, here's a parse from last night versus a warlock.  He's high dps right?  I was able to keep up, np.Both slayers, he was 36, I was 37.  I did not pre-ward.NAME                   START TIME      DURATION      DAMAGE      HEALED      EXT DPS      HITS    SWINGS      DMG TAKEN  {Warlock name} 9:12:41 PM      01:45             10429           462             97.47        102     116             2855       Wakanta             9:13:00 PM     01:28             2804            6896            26.21        43          64              9409       Kujo                    9:12:57 PM      00:02             51                  0                  0.48         1           2               1020 In what tier does it start getting bad for mystics? [[edited -- i have no idea how to paste the parse apparently]]

One vs One is far different than Group vs Group. (Fact of the day)Warlocks should be an easy fight for a Mystic with our noxious ward. I find most mages to be pretty simple fights tbh. But try solo healing a group and youll find out it gets tough quick. Our group ward wards collectively for 3-5k in T8, thats on a normal 15 second recast and takes 5 to cast. In 20 seconds even a NECRO could do enough AE dps to destroy that ward! Where as a druid can push out enough heals to offset most of the AE dps put out by most Warlocks. Granted every situation is different and my examples here are a bit bland but they speak toward the point. In PvE shamans are a beast of a class but when we side step to PvP this class needs some serious work.

[Bozidar]

Grondak@Nagafen wrote:

Jitter@Nagafen wrote:

We all have our opinions

But of all the stacked PvP groups made ... which have dominated t8 PvP

None of them have had a Defiler or Mystic as part of their makeup.

[I cannot control my vocabulary]...does that mean that the alt group i'm lvling through the tiers with friends (tier 4-->5 atm) will not count as stacked (assuming good gear) at tier 8??

Guard, Mystic (shock!! Horror), Templar, Troub, Illusionist, Warlock.  " width="15" height="15" />

Oh, you'll be a stacked group alright.  Stacked up on the ground.  It'll be soooo cute.

[Shu]

nice try guys, i feel your pain. but lets be more realistic: i give you 0.0001 chance that your problem will be adressed before next expansion will come out. (same as sick melee damage and overpovered poison/interrupt etc triggers from melee weapons AND CAs)

[Zacarus]

Jordin@Nagafen wrote:

Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:

I would love faster wards, and leg bite to snare, and all that.  Sound great, thumbs up.But my mystic has zero troubles 1v1 in tier 4.  For example, here's a parse from last night versus a warlock.  He's high dps right?  I was able to keep up, np.Both slayers, he was 36, I was 37.  I did not pre-ward.NAME                   START TIME      DURATION      DAMAGE      HEALED      EXT DPS      HITS    SWINGS      DMG TAKEN  {Warlock name} 9:12:41 PM      01:45             10429           462             97.47        102     116             2855       Wakanta             9:13:00 PM     01:28             2804            6896            26.21        43          64              9409       Kujo                    9:12:57 PM      00:02             51                  0                  0.48         1           2               1020 In what tier does it start getting bad for mystics? [[edited -- i have no idea how to paste the parse apparently]]

One vs One is far different than Group vs Group. (Fact of the day)Warlocks should be an easy fight for a Mystic with our noxious ward. I find most mages to be pretty simple fights tbh. But try solo healing a group and youll find out it gets tough quick. Our group ward wards collectively for 3-5k in T8, thats on a normal 15 second recast and takes 5 to cast. In 20 seconds even a NECRO could do enough AE dps to destroy that ward! Where as a druid can push out enough heals to offset most of the AE dps put out by most Warlocks. Granted every situation is different and my examples here are a bit bland but they speak toward the point. In PvE shamans are a beast of a class but when we side step to PvP this class needs some serious work.

I agree Mystics are well tuned to perform well against Warlocks.I was just responding to the previous post in which someone said, "Any class with fast casting heals or a lot of dps will just take us down," -- a Warlock has a lot of dps and yet here is an example of a Mystic beating a Warlock.Clearly group vs group is different in that the group ward gets chewed so quickly in group pvp.  This renders one of the mystics best facets virtually unusable in pvp.  I think something along the lines of, "the casting speed and size of the ward scales with the size the group," would be fair.  So the larger the group, the slower the cast, but the bigger the benefit.

[Bloodfa]

Oh, I think it just might get addressed.  For what it's worth, we've got a T8 Mystic that comes out to play every now and then in T8.  You need more than just a Mystic healing if you want to survive, but man, when he wards up the tank ... but still, you'll need the right group and they'll have to work well together, just like any other T8 PvP group.

And poison's not overpowered. 

[KatrinaDeath]

Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:

Oh, I think it just might get addressed.  For what it's worth, we've got a T8 Mystic that comes out to play every now and then in T8.  You need more than just a Mystic healing if you want to survive, but man, when he wards up the tank ... but still, you'll need the right group and they'll have to work well together, just like any other T8 PvP group.

And poison's not overpowered. 

You thinking it "Might" get addressed is enough hope for me.I got 3 T8 toons... 2 of the 3 are classes that have issues. The third being an SK. =/

[dellaripa]

Zacarus@Nagafen wrote:

I would love faster wards, and leg bite to snare, and all that.  Sound great, thumbs up.But my mystic has zero troubles 1v1 in tier 4.  For example, here's a parse from last night versus a warlock.  He's high dps right?  I was able to keep up, np.Both slayers, he was 36, I was 37.  I did not pre-ward.NAME                   START TIME      DURATION      DAMAGE      HEALED      EXT DPS      HITS    SWINGS      DMG TAKEN  {Warlock name} 9:12:41 PM      01:45             10429           462             97.47        102     116             2855       Wakanta             9:13:00 PM     01:28             2804            6896            26.21        43          64              9409       Kujo                    9:12:57 PM      00:02             51                  0                  0.48         1           2               1020 In what tier does it start getting bad for mystics?[[edited -- i have no idea how to paste the parse apparently]]

It gets bad at about 50.  It gets really really really bad past 60.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't roll a Mystic to gank or to be the best PvP class.  Being subpar to an extent isn't really all that bad.  I expected it.  However, it's not all that uncommon for me to not get a single spell off before I'm dead or my partner's dead, versus a comparable duo.  This is in late tier 7-early t8.  The damage that scouts do compared to the speed and power of our wards is off balance.  Dieing at full power sucks.  I/we are sitting ducks.

[Guld_Ulrish]

Dont know about Mystics, But was fine until t8. t7 was fine atleast for my Defiler. And Ithink it was the same for Mystics.

[Vilesummon]

Guld_Ulrish wrote:

Dont know about Mystics, But was fine until t8. t7 was fine atleast for my Defiler. And Ithink it was the same for Mystics.

Same thing for Mystics Guld. You will notice that the consensus is universal from both alignments that shamans need love. I don't even play a shaman and have watched the t8 decay of the class, and it isn't hard to see. Sort of like the summoner issue, it transcends alignment this time.

[KannaWhoopass]

I cant prove this

But i bet .. If you allowed a shamen to cast his single target ward on a loop .. with no time for recast..

A scout would still kill him in under 12 seconds .. in t8

and on average in 5 seconds..

It would look like ... interrupt .. interrupt interrupt  dead.

or Interrupt , ward.  interrupt interrupt dead .

or even ward .. ward ... interrupt interrupt ward .. interrupt dead..

The problem with shamen is 80% of their abilities are unusable in PvP.

There is no time to use any of them ... Ansestral sentry ,, or the buff bear .. or any debuffs ... in the case of a defiler death ward would be nice but cant be cast on yourself.. (how [Removed for Content] silly is that)

A shamen can fight a healer , but really when do you ever want to engage in a 8 min fight , in PvP.

or some fighters. But in t8 you are a writ update taking a dog for a walk . Thats about it.

In a PvP fight in t8 i may have time to cast my CA's but ill die becasue of no healing. If iheal i have 3

heals at my disposal .. single ward , small heal .. large heal .. thats it.. any others are not worth casting..

but mostly .. its about time.. shamen have no time.. and no abilities to give time.. Healers being killed with full power.. not right..

Seriously if shamen were scouts there would be an uproar.. because the scout version of Shamen PvP is

Dropped my sword, Bow broken , dropped sword, missed , missed, dropped sword, HIt yourself in the face with your shield , Evac'd your armor to zone line , fell on you sword ... dead.

[Bloodfa]

So I'll reiterate my earlier assessment of the situation, as grasped from the commentary of the above Shaman players: casting times are too long.  I'll add in the 'too easy to interrupt' thing, but that's a common issue with all non-melee types and probably worthy of its' own discussion elsewhere.  Do we have a consensus on this?  Decreasing casting time for a fix that would probably be welcome by every class.

[rvbarton]

no, bloodfang...  There are more issues than cast times are too long.Resists are a joke...  Cure's in PVP are useless.Wards are too small, coupled with the fact that heal cast times are too long and don't heal in par with other classes DPS abilities.no class defining abilities at all.  Did i mention wards are not powerful enough?  Heals are not on-par?  If a scout can drop 3 DoTs on me and I can't even cure one, and I'm immobilized from them, and I can't get a heal, ward, or cure off within the first 3 seconds, then we have a problem.  If anyone can use an ability that strips wards, or an item (pumice stone), then wouldn't it be the same to give us an ability to resist the damage?  Did I mention resists are broken in PVP, and cures are NOT on-par?  I have to wait (5s I believe, if not more) between cure casts in PVP, in case you didn't know.Wait, lets not forget the uselessness of dogdog.  He is very useful for the opposing faction to know that I'm a shaman and I am a walking writ update waiting to be killed. In PVP, I'm reduced to using my insta-cast ST & Group Ward, but once they are gone, then I'm hosed.  I respecc'd down the AA line that gives rabies & scourge, but they are so very highly resistable, that 9/10 times they don't work.What about the uselessness of 2 of our AA lines that are purely situational (Cure & Res AA lines in EoF)?  Please, if you are going to submit a list, please submit a complete list.

[KatrinaDeath]

Jitter@Nagafen wrote:

I cant prove this

But i bet .. If you allowed a shamen to cast his single target ward on a loop .. with no time for recast..

A scout would still kill him in under 12 seconds .. in t8

and on average in 5 seconds..

It would look like ... interrupt .. interrupt interrupt  dead.

or Interrupt , ward.  interrupt interrupt dead .

or even ward .. ward ... interrupt interrupt ward .. interrupt dead..

The problem with shamen is 80% of their abilities are unusable in PvP.

There is no time to use any of them ... Ansestral sentry ,, or the buff bear .. or any debuffs ... in the case of a defiler death ward would be nice but cant be cast on yourself.. (how [Removed for Content] silly is that)

A shamen can fight a healer , but really when do you ever want to engage in a 8 min fight , in PvP.

or some fighters. But in t8 you are a writ update taking a dog for a walk . Thats about it.

In a PvP fight in t8 i may have time to cast my CA's but ill die becasue of no healing. If iheal i have 3

heals at my disposal .. single ward , small heal .. large heal .. thats it.. any others are not worth casting..

but mostly .. its about time.. shamen have no time.. and no abilities to give time.. Healers being killed with full power.. not right..

Seriously if shamen were scouts there would be an uproar.. because the scout version of Shamen PvP is

Dropped my sword, Bow broken , dropped sword, missed , missed, dropped sword, HIt yourself in the face with your shield , Evac'd your armor to zone line , fell on you sword ... dead.

This doesn't even work in PvP! It casts the "buff" on every player regardless of faction. The first step is Sony admitting the class has a problem!

[Bloodfa]

Lyea@Nagafen wrote:

no, bloodfang...  There are more issues than cast times are too long.Resists are a joke...  Cure's in PVP are useless.Wards are too small, coupled with the fact that heal cast times are too long and don't heal in par with other classes DPS abilities.no class defining abilities at all.  Did i mention wards are not powerful enough?  Heals are not on-par?  If a scout can drop 3 DoTs on me and I can't even cure one, and I'm immobilized from them, and I can't get a heal, ward, or cure off within the first 3 seconds, then we have a problem.  If anyone can use an ability that strips wards, or an item (pumice stone), then wouldn't it be the same to give us an ability to resist the damage?  Did I mention resists are broken in PVP, and cures are NOT on-par?  I have to wait (5s I believe, if not more) between cure casts in PVP, in case you didn't know.Wait, lets not forget the uselessness of dogdog.  He is very useful for the opposing faction to know that I'm a shaman and I am a walking writ update waiting to be killed. In PVP, I'm reduced to using my insta-cast ST & Group Ward, but once they are gone, then I'm hosed.  I respecc'd down the AA line that gives rabies & scourge, but they are so very highly resistable, that 9/10 times they don't work.What about the uselessness of 2 of our AA lines that are purely situational (Cure & Res AA lines in EoF)?  Please, if you are going to submit a list, please submit a complete list.

Okay, here's the kind of thing I was looking for.  Resists are a common issue among casters, so add that to the list.  Bigger Wards ... bigger group or bigger single target?  Cures, I've seen that brought up by Druids as well.  The crux of it is, the Devs don't spend a couple hours a night PvPing.  And if they did, they'd have to split that time between 24 classes?  We need to give them as much consistent feedback on what needs to be addressed per class, but 95% of the time it ends up in a "Yeah, but Scouts can blah blah ... " or "Well, what about the so-and-so class weaknesses" derailments, and then they get lumped into the other junk threads.  You're a Shaman, you've come up with a list, make it complete and just ask for others to endorse it.  The absolute worst that could happen is you waste 5 minutes of your time posting it.

[dellaripa]

Also, assuming you get a ward off, you're now down to 40-50% health, cast a heal, now you're 40% again.  Ward is not refreshed yet.  You're stunned now anyways so it doesn't really matter.  You're dead.

 Congrats on your writ update.

*Point being, even if we get a ward off we're doomed anyways.

[Roald]

Killed a yellow con mystic today on my swashie that had time to pre-ward single and group ward. I'm not sure how good a player she was (she did have here dog out, so I'm not too sure) but it looked like she only had time to get another 1-2 heals off.

Then again, a level 32 swashie is hardly a weak opponent

[Sightless]

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Killed a yellow con mystic today on my swashie that had time to pre-ward single and group ward. I'm not sure how good a player she was (she did have here dog out, so I'm not too sure) but it looked like she only had time to get another 1-2 heals off.

Then again, a level 32 swashie is hardly a weak opponent " width="15" height="15" />

Nice frown and the implication that a Swashbuckler is overpowered. Your main is a freep, so it doesn't suprise me you keep trying to imply only Qeynos classes are overpowered. It angers me that you would do this, yet leave out the power of the Brigand, which I havn't seen one negative post from you about Brigands, but daily you're here about Rangers and Swashbucklers in some form or fashion.

Now to the constructive part of your post. A lot of classes can destroy Mystics, but that is hardly new, and it is why this thread is here. But can we keep this about Mystics, and not scouts please?

[Roald]

Sightless wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Killed a yellow con mystic today on my swashie that had time to pre-ward single and group ward. I'm not sure how good a player she was (she did have here dog out, so I'm not too sure) but it looked like she only had time to get another 1-2 heals off.

Then again, a level 32 swashie is hardly a weak opponent " width="15" height="15">

Nice frown and the implication that a Swashbuckler is overpowered. Your main is a freep, so it doesn't suprise me you keep trying to imply only Qeynos classes are overpowered. It angers me that you would do this, yet leave out the power of the Brigand, which I havn't seen one negative post from you about Brigands, but daily you're here about Rangers and Swashbucklers in some form or fashion.

Now to the constructive part of your post. A lot of classes can destroy Mystics, but that is hardly new, and it is why this thread is here. But can we keep this about Mystics, and not scouts please?

I've fought Brigands nearly as much as I have swashies. I've fought brigands with Mythicals. IMO, they don't even compare to Swashbucklers in temrs of 'overpoweredness'. Honestly. I can actually live for more that 3 seconds toe to toe with a brigand, and the fight comes more down to skill than just swashie with all temps up clicking 3 buttons.

Swashie is the most overpowered class I've played, followed by (/gasp) ranger. That's right, 2 Qeynos classes.

Theres a reason why the nerf posts have shifted from Freeport classes to Qeynos, and its the same reason Qeynos majorly outnumbers Freeport on Nagafen.

[Sightless]

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Sightless wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Killed a yellow con mystic today on my swashie that had time to pre-ward single and group ward. I'm not sure how good a player she was (she did have here dog out, so I'm not too sure) but it looked like she only had time to get another 1-2 heals off.

Then again, a level 32 swashie is hardly a weak opponent " width="15" height="15">

Nice frown and the implication that a Swashbuckler is overpowered. Your main is a freep, so it doesn't suprise me you keep trying to imply only Qeynos classes are overpowered. It angers me that you would do this, yet leave out the power of the Brigand, which I havn't seen one negative post from you about Brigands, but daily you're here about Rangers and Swashbucklers in some form or fashion.

Now to the constructive part of your post. A lot of classes can destroy Mystics, but that is hardly new, and it is why this thread is here. But can we keep this about Mystics, and not scouts please?

I've fought Brigands nearly as much as I have swashies. I've fought brigands with Mythicals. IMO, they don't even compare to Swashbucklers in temrs of 'overpoweredness'. Honestly. I can actually live for more that 3 seconds toe to toe with a brigand, and the fight comes more down to skill than just swashie with all temps up clicking 3 buttons.

Swashie is the most overpowered class I've played, followed by (/gasp) ranger. That's right, 2 Qeynos classes.

Theres a reason why the nerf posts have shifted from Freeport classes to Qeynos, and its the same reason Qeynos majorly outnumbers Freeport on Nagafen.

You're a level 80 Freeport Coercor, there is a reason you want Qeynos classes nerfed. You're tired of competition.

There are tons of Freeport players asking for various things in Qeynos to get nerfed from classes to abilities, to us being able to make a level 1-9 characters to use the Timorous Deep merchant which you guys get to buy off the fence with immunity on any character. There are complaints from revive points, to stuff as silly as Qeynos Guards. It's not new to see someone from Freeport to complain about anything in Qeynos.

[Greggthegrmreapr]

What really irritates me, is that they give us extremely long casting times on spells, and then they give us an AA that for a shor time reduces cast times!  Except we can't cast it on ourselves!?!  W.T.F?

[Mörk]

My gripe post... nothing new to add really " width="15" height="15" />

Casting times- well, we don't need special AAs for it, just a single buff, tag it on to Avatar or Ancestry. Improve Benevolent Alacrity gear, or add something substantial to our epic.

Ward size- [Removed for Content]. +50 HP on T8 ad3 vs. T7 m1, disproportionately higher power costs, and no tier benefit like a CA has. Oberon lasts approximately one swing from a scouts' DW 4 sec weapons (which they all have), which considering the recast and originally class-defining nature of the ward seems bizarrely underpowered.

Someone mentioned Ancestral Sentry- yes it's broken. Fix it, please.

Someone posted a log. Note that it begins with "Runic Sentry absorbs xxx" "You enter combat after casting Runic Sentry on yourself". This, last time I checked, was still an issue.

Maybe relocate the Ritual of Magic AA to the Int line, it seems to make sense there from a utility point of view. Swap it with Immunities, so that we can focus on pure DPS or pure group buffing.

Alternatively, if we have to be gimped scouts, buff our CAs and base offensive skills a little.

I rolled Mystic for a fun pvp alt, and had a blast in every other tier and knew I had a good chance in solo PvP against ANY other class. Now I stick to my swash, and know that I can at least evac from the classes I can't beat " width="15" height="15" />

EDIT: Glad to see someone else noticed the error in Milamber's lastname. Not seen him solo since writs came out, funnily enough.