Once more.....shamans

[Oneira]

I took a break from EQ2 for a while.  I just returned for an equal while.  I've been reading the posts about class imbalances, and I sympathize greatly with the plight of Necros, just to mention the most underpowered atm.  Which brings me to an old and dying horse that needs to be kicked again, I think.  Not too long ago Notsovile and other high level Mystics really tried to push to bring attention to the sorry state shamans in EQ2 pvp.Sadly, it seems that nothing has been done.  No acknowledgment that there is a problem.  "Houston we have a problem."---Not here apparently.  So after getting out there with my 37 Mystic (yes I know, I'm not even close to t" /> and giving it another go, then talking with several of my t8 brothers and sisters, I'm left with the same opinion as before: Mystics are seriously gimped in pvp.  Defilers apparently do not fare much better, and maybe even worse.Why?I guess it has to be said over and over and over again until somebody gets it: mystics have horrible cast times on virtually everything--their wards, heals and debuffs.  I guess it has to be said over and over and over again, fast heals are the difference between winning and losing in pvp considering how fast several classes out there can damage you and/or stun and interrupt you (in the case of rogues it is, of course, both).  SHAMANS ARE THE ONLY PRIEST CLASS THAT GETS NO CASTING TIME REDUCTIONS TO THEIR SPELLS, NOR DO THEY GET AA SKILL TO PROTECT THEM AGAINST INTERRUPTS, STUNS OR WHAT HAVE YOU.  DRUIDS AND PRIESTS BOTH DO.DOES SOMEBODY OUT THERE GET IT????  WE ALREADY HAVE THE LONGEST CASTING TIMES OF ALL THE PRIEST CLASSES AND WE GET NO REDUCTIONS OR DEFENSE AGAINST INTERRUPTS.  DOES.....SOMEBODY....GET....IT?????!!!!??I played my mystic all day yesterday, solo and grouped.  In group action this was the normal series of events.  1) cast single target ward on tank.  2) cast group noxious and elemental debuff.  3) cast group attack speed debuff.That's it.  That's pretty much all I had time for unless the fight lasted a bit.  Then it was 4) ST ward on tank.  5) about 1 in every 5 fight, cast group ward in the hopes that nobody dies in that 5 seconds of casting.Using my melee specc'ed skills?  What are you kidding me?  After doing this for 6 hours, I realized that there was no point in continuing to play my mystic.  Here's what several t8 mystics also told me.  Their group ward at adept III plus plenty of healing gear and adorns = 3590ish damage blocked for the entire group.  I was shocked.  How much does a wizard's Fusion do?  What about an Assassin's Decapitate, or for that matter, their 2nd best CA?  My t8 Guardian can knock down that "awesome" group ward with 2 CAs for Christ's sake!!!!!  A frickin' guardian!!!!I switched to my ranger and started having fun again.

[KatrinaDeath]

/paging Notsovile, Breanna, Costas, Dejanaa, The exiled Mystic from Venekor, Maab, Phorbin, Neluk, and Chesty to this thread.It's a tough T8 class to play... Esp when I choose to not even use the INT line. It's a playable class tho... More playable than my necro. (LOL I rolled the lamest classes for PvP). Just gotta use the scout mentality OR get every overloaded heal piece in the game to be able to compete.Yeah, they could use some help... I'd like a bit faster cast times, larger group wards in PvP, a decent control effect, and something else to prevent control effects.Ask any of the "Top Mystics" and I'm willing to bet they have around the same wish list as I do.

[Greggthegrmreapr]

The casting times that we have on our spells is bad, but what is the worst I think is the reduction our heals and wards took in PvP.  To this day, I will never understand what posessed SoE to go HEY!!  lets give melee classes like assassins, rangers brigs and swashies some higer damage in PvP, poisons that can completely debilitate an enemy, making them unable to move, and in the case of rangers and swashies, make them able to attack far enough away that no one can really touch them.  On top of that they made it pretty much impossible to cure in PvP.  with scouts having 3 poison types, and they speed at which they attack, paired with the amount of procs on gear, you have 5 or 6 effects on you in 2 or 3 seconds, and no way to cure them.  Pair that with the time it takes to cast a ward, and its pretty much a dying battle from the start. 

Wards should have never been included in that heal nerf several months ago amd with the smal amount that shaman direct heals heal for, they really didn't need touched either.  They have a set amount for which they heal for, and take a god awful long time to cast, so usually by the time you get close to finishing the cast, you are getting interupted. 

[Vilesummon]

I am sure Notso may post something eventually using a second account (since he is banned from these "fluff" forums), but I can tell you he feels more strongly about this issue than ever before. Last weekend when he was out at the house, he decided to take Notso out for pvp, something he had given up due to the issues that Denna mentioned. After a few hours, he was so irritated that he didn't even hop back to his Troub to pvp with; he hopped on Guitar Hero and then Call of Duty.

 SOE has TOTALLY destroyed shamans; their use in pvp is pathetic. As Denna points out, the wards/heals were no where close to where they needed to be to keep up with the increased damage. As was also pointed out, the cast times are too long, especially with all the haste items that get melee classes going even more. Because of the long casts, the classes get interrupted too much.

At least SOE used the Epic weapons to fix some of the issues by buffing wards and reducing cast times...OH WAIT, no they didn't do that either.

As the OP stated, nothing has changed for the shaman, which is sad. Look quickly, if you want to see Notso, he is out twice a week for PVE content raids. Other than that, he is a transmuting mule mainly. Good job SOE!!!

[Roald]

Shamens can be amazing in PvP groups, wards are the best heals in the game. I'd normally pick a defiler over inquisitor in a group of I had the choice.Swisha, It'd be interesting to setup a fight in the wild. See how long it takes you to kill me with 8.1K health and 25% stoneskin. I bet it would be about 6 seconds or under.

[Greggthegrmreapr]

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Shamens can be amazing in PvP groups, wards are the best heals in the game. I'd normally pick a defiler over inquisitor in a group of I had the choice.Swisha, It'd be interesting to setup a fight in the wild. See how long it takes you to kill me with 8.1K health and 25% stoneskin. I bet it would be about 6 seconds or under.

I conpletely agree with you that wards are amazing in PvP.  What I am saying is the time it takes to cast them is WAY to long.  Most melee classes have some for of interupt or stun.  Try casting a ward with a brigand or swashie beating on you proccing interupt off the offensive stance every few seconds.  Its not easy.  With the nerf to wards and heals, my single target ward (the T7 one, I haven't gotten to the level for T8 one yet) wards for 1482 in PvP.  That is ONE crit from a rangers bow.  1 hit and the ward is gone.  Not to mention that other healer classes group heals are individual to the recipiant, while a ward is shared through the whole group.  If we get a group ward cast in PvP, its usually about 3-4k or something.  A wizard hits a nuke and that ward is gone.  other healer classes, the group spells are still able to affect them. (this is confirmed with druids, I have never played a cleric, so can't verify that reactives do the same, but I am under the impression they are individual, not shared through the group.) 15 second recast and a 5 second cast time till it cn be cast again.

All I rwant to make our class more in line is faster casting, some type of resistance or immunity to stuns/interupts/, and being able to cast all my wards on myself.  The endability in the WIS tree is nice, but can't cast it on yourself, which makes it absolutely useless if you solo, on top of that, they made our signiture spell at 80 (at least for defilers, haven't played a mystic in almost a year, don't know what their 80 sig spell is) can not be cast on self.  There aren't always groups available to go with, and that eliminates an option that Defilers at least have to defend themselves.

[Natthan]

From Notso:All right, I rolled a Healer to be a HEALER. Not pretend to be a scout. I want to be efficent at HEALING not trying to pump out so much damage before I have to heal to win. On a regular basis on Notso I used to PvP in the city and have even solo healed it and lived. I can't even think about healing a group in PvP anymore even with Banshee hoop. The shaman class that was once a challenge for group PvP Compared to all the other healers but still effective is not utterly useless comparing them to the other classes. Even defilers since both wards are aweful in PvP, with auto attacks from scouts and even warriors doing upwards of 1k in PvP, are better than Mystics now in my eyes because creating the distance using the fear is invaluable if your trying to get a ward off. I'm not fine with just trying to be a scout in all honesty. I really do wish they would fix the P.O.S class so I could actually play my main without having to log in frustration in PvP.

[KannaWhoopass]

No Shamen are not good in group PvP . they are just Ok , and in my opinion would be the last healer chosen for any PvP setup.

They are an Ok choice for the second healer in a PvP group , but givien an option of a Druid/Cleric  combo are the weaker choice.

In solo PvP they are a joke.  The reality is , in any given PvP fight , they stand a good chance of loosing , and no chance of winning.

There is no reason to ever loose to a Shamen.  If you are at 40% and things are not looking good for you ..  run away.  Bingo ! a shamen isnt going to stop you !

The worst thing that can happen is that the shamen could anticipate your run and try to cover you with rabies and another dot.. and perhaps save scourge for your run .. you might die running.

But 95% of the time ,, you will just need to sprint for 8 seconds.. no healer will use a sprint button to follow you unless you are at 15% or so.

Shamen have no means to stop you from beating on them .. Defilers have fear , which after switching to a Mystic i miss so much. But if it is resistd.. game over.

Shamen healing = too little too late.

On my warden my group heals are a viable option to cast .. even in solo combat.

As a warden i have 2 group heals and will use them . The cast time on the burst group heal is about the same as a single target ward.

Other healers will expierience a sudden spike in dps .. their health will dip to the low orange or red .. and they will pull their health back from the brink.  Shamen will never do this.

Almost all of my fights vs scouts on a warden look like that .. well in t7 i was like that .. to be honest in t8 i die most times in a 1 v1 with scouts now.. but shamen will never recover.. they cant recover. 

If their health is in the red.. they are dead.. 1 double auto attack will kill them at this point... a double critical and game over.. a stun .. = dead.. and in this scenario thay are trying to cast a heal on a long cast time .. which even if completed is worth less than most CA's on 1/2 the cast timer...  

The only use for shamen is in raids.. where they can be keps safe .. they are not interupted ..  the fights last long enough for them to cycle thru their debuffs ... and fall into a warding pattern .. ON A SINGLE TARTGET.

If i had to write a post like Shamen heal .. it would look like this..

Im going to tell you how

Im going to tell you how to win as

Im going to tell you how to win as a

. . . . . . . . . .. . . .. ..................................................

Imgoing to tell you how to win as a Shamen the trick is

If i were to revamp the shamen class . .

I would slightly reduce the ward amounts. and in return add regenerating wards to their heals.

similar to the warden effects with hot's on most heals.

The wards on the heals would stack.  I would also give aa lines to make it near impossible to stun and or stiffle a shamen.

another option i always liked was giving them anti tracking. a group buff making the shamens group invisible to all tracking.

The class is really quite [Removed for Content] ... they have average written all over them ...  i mean even a chokodai totem offers more speed than their pathfinding at max aa .. how sad is that.

[Wildfury77]

Certainly NOT last choice for group healers!!! My templar often plays in a group with a mystic, illusionist and Guard (+2 others).....and I would never pick a druid over the mystic in this kinda setup a) Decent tank ---> you can cast b) Time compression ---> enough said c) Divine recovery + time compression = peerless healing! To get the most from a mystic a) Find a decent tank b) Make friends with illusionists/templars and monks....then watch your class shine. Its no different to say a bard solo versus a bard in group ---> Some classes are awesome when solo others are awesome in groups

[Roald]

Denna@Venekor wrote:

Milambers@Nagafen wrote:

Shamens can be amazing in PvP groups, wards are the best heals in the game. I'd normally pick a defiler over inquisitor in a group of I had the choice.Swisha, It'd be interesting to setup a fight in the wild. See how long it takes you to kill me with 8.1K health and 25% stoneskin. I bet it would be about 6 seconds or under.

I conpletely agree with you that wards are amazing in PvP.  What I am saying is the time it takes to cast them is WAY to long.  Most melee classes have some for of interupt or stun.  Try casting a ward with a brigand or swashie beating on you proccing interupt off the offensive stance every few seconds.  Its not easy.  With the nerf to wards and heals, my single target ward (the T7 one, I haven't gotten to the level for T8 one yet) wards for 1482 in PvP.  That is ONE crit from a rangers bow.  1 hit and the ward is gone.  Not to mention that other healer classes group heals are individual to the recipiant, while a ward is shared through the whole group.  If we get a group ward cast in PvP, its usually about 3-4k or something.  A wizard hits a nuke and that ward is gone.  other healer classes, the group spells are still able to affect them. (this is confirmed with druids, I have never played a cleric, so can't verify that reactives do the same, but I am under the impression they are individual, not shared through the group.) 15 second recast and a 5 second cast time till it cn be cast again.

All I rwant to make our class more in line is faster casting, some type of resistance or immunity to stuns/interupts/, and being able to cast all my wards on myself.  The endability in the WIS tree is nice, but can't cast it on yourself, which makes it absolutely useless if you solo, on top of that, they made our signiture spell at 80 (at least for defilers, haven't played a mystic in almost a year, don't know what their 80 sig spell is) can not be cast on self.  There aren't always groups available to go with, and that eliminates an option that Defilers at least have to defend themselves.

While I think wards are the best heals in the game, I do agree that they could do some buffing when a single double attack can one-shot them.

[Vilesummon]

Grondak@Nagafen wrote:

Certainly NOT last choice for group healers!!! My templar often plays in a group with a mystic, illusionist and Guard (+2 others).....and I would never pick a druid over the mystic in this kinda setup " /> a) Decent tank ---> you can cast b) Time compression ---> enough said c) Divine recovery + time compression = peerless healing! To get the most from a mystic a) Find a decent tank b) Make friends with illusionists/templars and monks....then watch your class shine. Its no different to say a bard solo versus a bard in group ---> Some classes are awesome when solo others are awesome in groups " />

Don't include bards in that statements....at least not troubs, they can be very effective on their own IF played well. What you are more or less saying is, given the IDEAL group, a mystic can handle it. So unless there is an IDEAL group available, the shaman will falter, which is sort of the point of the post. It takes too perfect of a scenario for a shaman to be as effective as they should be...and that is sad, but clearly why you see 4000 druids and 4 shamans.

[KannaWhoopass]

We all have our opinions

But of all the stacked PvP groups made ... which have dominated t8 PvP

None of them have had a Defiler or Mystic as part of their makeup.

They cant handle AOE damage . that is just the way it is ..

Druids top parses in Grp PvP by massive margins because they are compensating for AOE damage.

That is why they are the ideal 2nd healer in a Power PvP grp.

The sanctuary + reactives and DPS/HPS of the clerics is what makes them a good primary healer .

Shamen are too slow .. and deliver the heals too late ..

In PvP where the dps can switch from one target to another quickly because of assists ..

a 2500 point ward sitting on a guy who took damage 3 seconds ago .. and the new target being at 50% health and falling fast ...

Shamen are not agile enough to save him .. the cast times are too long ... 

When you look at cast times .. a druid will cast about 4 heals for every 3 a shamen can cast .. or 8 heals for every 6 or 12 heals for every 9 ..

when you consider that the druid could have healed 12 people in the time that the shamen could heal 9 ... or all of the group twice ... and the shamen could have healed 3 members of the group twice ... and the rest once.. you start to see why they fall short ....

Add to that that as aoe's are going off shamen are being interupted on 3 and 4 or 5 second casts(humm not sure there is a 5 , but it feels like it) .. druids are beinf interupted on 2 and 3 second casts.

If a Shamen was interrupted 3 second into a 4 second cast ... it is 7 seconds to get that heal off ..

The druid wouldnt have been interrupted at all .

if it was 2 seconds into a cast ... both interupted..  6 seconds go by and the shamen has cast a heal ... the druid is 1/2 way thru his second heal...

If on paper you factor that both healers will never be interrupted ... then perhaps their healing potential looks simmilar ..

But in reality ... druids are more agile ..switch targets faster ... and recover better from being interrupted. ..

Add to that things like damage shields .. and sandstorm .. and group roots ... and single target roots.. and grp snare reductions , tortoise shell(not used often in PvP but , awsome when done right) 

Druids are PvP enabled .. Shamen are Raid enabled ..  Just my observations ... i play both classes ..   

Believe me i wanted my shamen to be cool .. i like the idea of the class ... i wanna have a big spear .. wear chain .. and pound the snot out of people .... but my guild .. would always ask me to log in my warden .. when PvP started.. without fail .

Shamen need PvP skills .. If shamen could apply their debuffs at the same speed as a brigand.. then you may have a PvP class.. because their healing in PvE is based upon being able to slow and decrease the attack speed of their opponents.. in PvP .. i dont think  ihave ever had the window of opportunity to waste 3 or more seconds .. to debuff a opposing player unles im fighting a healer... i could with my defiler .. when fear proced...

[Wildfury77]

Jitter@Nagafen wrote:

We all have our opinions

But of all the stacked PvP groups made ... which have dominated t8 PvP

None of them have had a Defiler or Mystic as part of their makeup.

[Removed for Content]...does that mean that the alt group i'm lvling through the tiers with friends (tier 4-->5 atm) will not count as stacked (assuming good gear) at tier 8??

Guard, Mystic (shock!! Horror), Templar, Troub, Illusionist, Warlock. 

[Vilesummon]

Grondak@Nagafen wrote:

Jitter@Nagafen wrote:

We all have our opinions

But of all the stacked PvP groups made ... which have dominated t8 PvP

None of them have had a Defiler or Mystic as part of their makeup.

[I cannot control my vocabulary]...does that mean that the alt group i'm lvling through the tiers with friends (tier 4-->5 atm) will not count as stacked (assuming good gear) at tier 8??

Guard, Mystic (shock!! Horror), Templar, Troub, Illusionist, Warlock.  " />

Denna and Notso were both high ranked shamans pre-ROK. The true [Removed for Content] nature of the mystic will become more evident to you as you hit the upper tiers. Just pray to God that your crowd control is totally on their game or your group will struggle. You have a nice balance there, but the mystic is the weakest link in the group BY FAR.

[KannaWhoopass]

No im not saying that ...

That grp will own faces..

But .. a warden or fury in place of the Mystic .. makes the group stronger.

The thing is that group will be using mezz and charm to win fights.

When you figh a group with another templar .. or some form of Immunity to mind effects ..

When they drop AOE's on you .. you wont be able to recover fast enough ..

Group wards are far from efficient.. the ward is spread out among 6 people ...

Look at a warden group heal .. factor in the initial heal ammount. then the added + heal gear.. then the heals from the HoT's which will be ticking away  for the next 10 or whatever seconds..   and then add that on the heels of that will be the second group heal .. with another HoT component. ... and then .. the group Emergency heal .. with the Hot component .. ticking away ...  

That is a Massive i mean massive heal ... all in less than 7 seconds...   It will counter Rift .. and rain of arrows .. and the other healers group heal  in there also ...   If you allow lets say 7 or 8 seconds to go by and let the stacked hot's push up the health of your grp .. Ill bet a warden can heal 30,000 points of health to  a 6 man group in under 14 seconds  , and that is conservative.   look at a shamen heal bar and try to do that ... that is the strength of the group healing 2nd healer ... 1 healer in the group to Push up health in large bursts ... one healer to steadily push up the group's health .. both are the best of both worlds.

sometimes a little heal right now ... is better than a big heal in a few seconds..

Your group will be solid .. you will have a great time im sure.. but .. shamen (and i dont like saying this) never 1st in line when picking a solo healer for a PvP grp .. and are last in line when picking a 2nd healer ..   Thats just how i feel ..

[Wildfury77]

TBH part of the reason we picked those classes was versatbility:

a) We felt they would balance nicely for PvP group play

b) Pretty much all be needed in a Qeynos "raiding" guild

We did think about Warden instead of mystic.....but decided mystic would cope well enough with the 5 classes. And there are millions of wardens wanting raid places and not quite so many mystics....

Gives us the best of both worlds imho

[Sightless]

The Mystic is more than just heals. When they look at the class and fix it, I do hope they focus on the entire class as a whole.

• Faster Casting times, or be able to reduce your own casting time. I really think the Mystic should be able to reduce the entire groups casting time like the Templar can with their AA.
• Debuffs, debuffs. The Mystic is a debuffing class, yet most of their debuffs do not work in PvP. For instance: When a Mystic slows melee, in PvP they should also be able to reduce the casting speed of Combat Arts since most PvP fights are over before most melee classed run out of combat arts. Also strength debuffs in PvP should debuff more strength than they do. There are far too many classes with 600-900 strength so 100 strength reduction really doesn't mean anything.
• Give the Mystic back the parry they once had during the release of the game. I quit the game back when they first removed my Mystics parry. They never should have lost it.

[KannaWhoopass]

Id like to see the debuffs changed.

From being a cast it on a target .. to a group buff.

Like Lethargy = Group buff .. has a 15% chance to proc lethargy on target of attack ... slows target by 20% .. or whatever..

and single target versions of the same thing ...

And perhaps some on timers .. so the buff lasts for only 30 seconds.. or a min ...

But they have FAST cast times for those who need to cast....

That way when a scout who swings fast! starts wailing on  you .. there is a large chance he will be procing debuffs on himself, the faster he hits you the more likly the debuffs are to land... that also allows the shamen to ward and heal the incomming dps .. while his debuffs are procing.. not like now where casting a debuff is sure death vs a fast swinging scout.  

Also in a raid .. the mobs hitting the tank will debuff themselvs...

and when groups are attacking a tank .. you are debuffing the group .. unlike now where im switching targets like a mad man .. debuffing .. then ward tank .. and have no idea what debuff is on which target .. without tabing arround..

Sure would make a scout think twice before burning you down  when 3 seconds into the fight he debuffed himself to the point he cant lift a sword...

This would take away from the off tank grp shamen to debuff a mob tho... BLEh!!

[Zacarus]

Jitter@Nagafen wrote:

No Shamen are not good in group PvP . they are just Ok , and in my opinion would be the last healer chosen for any PvP setup.

They are an Ok choice for the second healer in a PvP group , but givien an option of a Druid/Cleric  combo are the weaker choice.

In solo PvP they are a joke.  The reality is , in any given PvP fight , they stand a good chance of loosing , and no chance of winning.

There is no reason to ever loose to a Shamen.  If you are at 40% and things are not looking good for you ..  run away.  Bingo ! a shamen isnt going to stop you !

The worst thing that can happen is that the shamen could anticipate your run and try to cover you with rabies and another dot.. and perhaps save scourge for your run .. you might die running.

But 95% of the time ,, you will just need to sprint for 8 seconds.. no healer will use a sprint button to follow you unless you are at 15% or so.

Shamen have no means to stop you from beating on them .. Defilers have fear , which after switching to a Mystic i miss so much. But if it is resistd.. game over.

Shamen healing = too little too late.

On my warden my group heals are a viable option to cast .. even in solo combat.

As a warden i have 2 group heals and will use them . The cast time on the burst group heal is about the same as a single target ward.

Other healers will expierience a sudden spike in dps .. their health will dip to the low orange or red .. and they will pull their health back from the brink.  Shamen will never do this.

Almost all of my fights vs scouts on a warden look like that .. well in t7 i was like that .. to be honest in t8 i die most times in a 1 v1 with scouts now.. but shamen will never recover.. they cant recover. 

If their health is in the red.. they are dead.. 1 double auto attack will kill them at this point... a double critical and game over.. a stun .. = dead.. and in this scenario thay are trying to cast a heal on a long cast time .. which even if completed is worth less than most CA's on 1/2 the cast timer...  

The only use for shamen is in raids.. where they can be keps safe .. they are not interupted ..  the fights last long enough for them to cycle thru their debuffs ... and fall into a warding pattern .. ON A SINGLE TARTGET.

If i had to write a post like Shamen heal .. it would look like this..

Im going to tell you how

Im going to tell you how to win as

Im going to tell you how to win as a

. . . . . . . . . .. . . .. ..................................................

Imgoing to tell you how to win as a Shamen the trick is

If i were to revamp the shamen class . .

I would slightly reduce the ward amounts. and in return add regenerating wards to their heals.

similar to the warden effects with hot's on most heals.

The wards on the heals would stack.  I would also give aa lines to make it near impossible to stun and or stiffle a shamen.

another option i always liked was giving them anti tracking. a group buff making the shamens group invisible to all tracking.

The class is really quite [Removed for Content] ... they have average written all over them ...  i mean even a chokodai totem offers more speed than their pathfinding at max aa .. how sad is that.

My melee spec'd mystic stops runners all the time.  Phalanx is one of the best roots in the game.  We're talking about the same class here?  Mystic, right?  You sure you've played one?

[KannaWhoopass]

Ohhh ahhhhh

A root that takes 8 points in aa line to last as long as a warlock or wizard root.

But doesnt proc .. a fear .. or a snare upon termination .

lasts 1/2 as long as a druid root.

must be cast at melee range..

and is single target..

Yup sounds like the best root in the.. or wait hold up .. sound like the worst root in the game..

Yup we play the same class, i just play others..

[Greggthegrmreapr]

Lets not try to kill each other here.  Most of us on this thread want some change for the good for Shaman, but sitting here arguing between each other is not going to get that.  All that will do is get the thread locked or bring the trolls in to feed.  We don't want either of those.  What we need is good, constructive communication between all of us, and the devs show them what we as the players of the class feel we need to make the class more in line with the rest of the healers.  With some luck, and persistance, maybe we can get something accomplished.

While I'm at work tomorrow, if I get some spare time, I'll jot some things down, and hopefuly with some persistance, we can see some changes for the good instead of endless making us weaker and melee classes stronger.

[Zacarus]

Jitter@Nagafen wrote:

Ohhh ahhhhh

A root that takes 8 points in aa line to last as long as a warlock or wizard root.

But doesnt proc .. a fear .. or a snare upon termination .

lasts 1/2 as long as a druid root.

must be cast at melee range..

and is single target..

Yup sounds like the best root in the.. or wait hold up .. sound like the worst root in the game..

Yup we play the same class, i just play others..

Takes 4 aa's to activate it, and um.. its an attack.  So it does damage AND roots and it can't be resisted.Just countering your point that Shamans have no way to stop runners, when in fact, they do.

[Natthan]

Pre RoK Video Clip:Guardian,Mystic(Solo Healing), Monk, Ranger, Swash, Warlock City PvP Here

[Natthan]

(119901747" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:38 2007] Rrrazundra's fists crackle with the power of lightning.(1199017479)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:39 2007] You call upon the protective spirits of the ancestors.(1199017479)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:39 2007] Notsovilepriest surrounds the group with the protection of the ancestors.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Runic Armor absorbs 99 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You have entered into combat by using the ward, Ethereal Aegis on yourself while fighting Rrrazundra.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Ethereal Aegis absorbs 468 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Eagle Spin critically hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Ethereal Aegis absorbs 71 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Thunder Fist hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOU try to pierce Rrrazundra with Barbed Guard, but Rrrazundra resists.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Ethereal Aegis absorbs 211 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Ethereal Aegis absorbs 337 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Ethereal Aegis absorbs 71 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Thunder Fist hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You deftly counter Rrrazundra's attack!(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Counterattack critically hits Rrrazundra for 384 piercing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Ethereal Aegis absorbs 389 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra critically hits YOU for 310 crushing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU for 192 slashing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You were interrupted!(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You deftly counter Rrrazundra's attack!(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Counterattack hits Rrrazundra for 296 piercing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra tries to crush YOU, but YOU parry.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] The ancestral spirits around you dissipate.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Gut Punch hits YOU for 1230 slashing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Thunder Fist hits YOU for 71 magic damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017481)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:41 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove hits YOU for 385 slashing damage.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] Rrrazundra's Chin Break hits YOU for 906 slashing damage.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] Rrrazundra's Thunder Fist hits YOU for 71 magic damage.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard critically hits Rrrazundra for 52 piercing damage.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] You are stunned!(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove hits YOU for 200 slashing damage.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] You are struck with a mighty haymaker.(1199017482)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:42 2007] Your spell has been interrupted!(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 351 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's Thunder Fist hits YOU for 71 magic damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] You are struck by a Thundering Fist.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard critically hits Rrrazundra for 52 piercing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 93 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 195 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 228 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 141 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] YOUR Divine Light hits Rrrazundra for 231 divine damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] YOUR Divine Light heals YOU for 203 hit points.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 118 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 82 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's One Hundred Hand Punch hits YOU for 202 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove hits YOU for 288 slashing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] You are struck with one hundred hand punch.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's fists return to normal.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] You draw upon the ancestral powers.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] You draw upon the ancestral powers.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] YOUR Wards of the Eidolon absorbs 858 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's Steel Fist critically hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] YOUR Wards of the Eidolon absorbs 288 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove critically hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017483)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:43 2007] You are smacked with a fierce punch.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Wards of the Eidolon absorbs 630 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra's Blaze Kick hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOU try to pierce Rrrazundra with Barbed Guard, but Rrrazundra resists.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Wards of the Eidolon absorbs 191 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove critically hits YOU for 245 slashing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] You are hit with a break through kick.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] You are no longer stunned.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Your ancestral powers fade away.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] You call protective spirits to shield Notsovilepriest from harm.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Your skin begins to glow with eidolic wards.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Eidolic Ward absorbs 807 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra critically hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] You start fighting.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Ballad of Dual Thought critically hits Rrrazundra for 344 mental damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Ballad of Dual Thought critically hits Rrrazundra for 344 mental damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Divine Light hits Rrrazundra for 218 divine damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Divine Light heals YOU for 196 hit points.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Eidolic Ward absorbs 171 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra's Arctic Feedback hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Eidolic Ward absorbs 77 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU for 384 crushing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard critically hits Rrrazundra for 52 piercing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU for 624 slashing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU for 209 crushing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Ballad of Dual Thought critically hits Rrrazundra for 344 mental damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOU try to confound Rrrazundra with Ballad of Dual Thought, but Rrrazundra deflects.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017484)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:44 2007] The wards begin to fade.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] Rrrazundra tries to burn YOU with Comet Punch, but YOU parry.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOU critically hit Rrrazundra for 478 crushing damage.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOU try to slash Rrrazundra with Bear Claws, but Rrrazundra resists.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOU try to crush Rrrazundra, but miss.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOUR Runic Armor regenerates 133 points of absorption.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOUR Runic Armor absorbs 99 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] Rrrazundra's Eye Gash critically hits YOU for 737 piercing damage.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOUR Ballad of Dual Thought critically hits Rrrazundra for 344 mental damage.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOUR Ballad of Dual Thought critically hits Rrrazundra for 344 mental damage.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove critically hits YOU for 579 slashing damage.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] You are immune to Stun effects.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] You are gouged in the eyes.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] You draw upon the ancestral powers of life and rebirth.(1199017485)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:45 2007] Notsovilepriest protects your life with an Eidolic Savior!(1199017486)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:46 2007] Rrrazundra's Hammer hits YOU for 316 slashing damage.(1199017486)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:46 2007] YOU try to pierce Rrrazundra with Barbed Guard, but Rrrazundra resists.(1199017486)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:46 2007] Rrrazundra's Shove hits YOU for 418 slashing damage.(1199017486)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:46 2007] You are struck by a crushing blitz.(1199017487)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:47 2007] You draw upon the ancestral powers of the Quelling Spirits.(1199017487)[Sun Dec 30 07:24:47 2007] Rrrazundra appears indifferent to His surroundings.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra critically hits YOU for 945 slashing damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] You regain consciousness!(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOUR Eidolic Savior heals YOU for 684 hit points.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] You were interrupted!(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOUR Eidolic Savior absorbs 171 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra's Arctic Feedback hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra is interested in His surroundings again.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOUR Eidolic Savior absorbs 415 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU but fails to inflict any damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOUR Barbed Guard hits Rrrazundra for 40 piercing damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOUR Eidolic Savior absorbs 255 points of damage from being done to YOURSELF.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra hits YOU for 340 slashing damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] YOU try to pierce Rrrazundra with Barbed Guard, but Rrrazundra resists.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra critically hits YOU for 830 crushing damage.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] You stop fighting.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Your spell has been interrupted!(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Your runic shield dissipates.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] The spiritual energy begins to dissipate.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] The spirit of the mastadon leaves you.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Your aura fades.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Your fortitude begins to fade.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] The water spirit leaves you.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Your bear shape fades away.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Your aura fades.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] You can see clearly again.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] The spirit of the wolf leaves you.(119901748" />[Sun Dec 30 07:24:48 2007] Rrrazundra has killed you.This is how huge of a difference 1 expansion has made. I don't want my class to be elite, I love the challenge of making an Ok class look good. I play Pally, Mystic(Kind of Now a days), and troub.This was a 7 second fight even me prewarding, and using emergancies and everything.

[Oneira]

Denna@Venekor wrote:

Lets not try to kill each other here.  Most of us on this thread want some change for the good for Shaman, but sitting here arguing between each other is not going to get that.  All that will do is get the thread locked or bring the trolls in to feed.  We don't want either of those.  What we need is good, constructive communication between all of us, and the devs show them what we as the players of the class feel we need to make the class more in line with the rest of the healers.  With some luck, and persistance, maybe we can get something accomplished.

While I'm at work tomorrow, if I get some spare time, I'll jot some things down, and hopefuly with some persistance, we can see some changes for the good instead of endless making us weaker and melee classes stronger.

Here's what I think we need:1) a 35% casting time reduction across the board.  Without this change, nothing else really matterrs.  Our wards are too slow, our heals are too slow, our debuffs are too slow.  Casting time is our #1 biggest problem.  2) as per Jitter's suggestion, change our heals from increasing the maximum health to adding a small, regenerating ward for a short duration.  Increasing max health doesn't mean squat when your target is in the yellow-red, which is the case most of the time.  I almost never get the chance to heal someone beyond their max health during a battle.  It just doesn't happen.  That particular "benefit" for shaman heals isn't much of a benefit at all.  (And Jitter, I don't agree with a corresponding reduction in our wards.  Our wards were nerfed already, and right now they are inadequate for the kind of DPS machines that are out there once you get past t4).Those two changes would make a world of difference for shamans.

[Natthan]

BTW: From an old Post, Just look at the numbers. Look at these numbers then look at you T8 Group ward. Doesn't it make you feel wonderful that a level 42 Warden can still outheal you even with you have 38 levels on them...Fantastic! dellaripa wrote:

The problem with inequality of group heals for a 51 mystic vs 50 warden.

 Warden: Chlorostorm(master1):level42, cast=3 sec, recast 12 sec.

              Heals group members for 189-231 instantly and every 2 seconds for 10 seconds.

Mystic:  Umbral ritual(master2):level 42, cast=5 sec, recast=15sec.

              Wards group members against 1481 total damage.

Both these are quoted with PVP scaling.  Notice One is master 1, the other is master 2.

The Math:

Warden heals the group for a maximum (using the lower limit) of 6ticksx6group membersx189=6804.

The Mystic: 1481.

We can talk about interrupts later

 Edit:  Sorry defilers, this applies to you too.  I feel your pain as well.

[Oneira]

Sightless wrote:

The Mystic is more than just heals. When they look at the class and fix it, I do hope they focus on the entire class as a whole.

• Faster Casting times, or be able to reduce your own casting time. I really think the Mystic should be able to reduce the entire groups casting time like the Templar can with their AA. 

Agree.  It's my #1 recommendation.  35% reduced casting times across the board.  Not sure we should get it for the entire group though.

• Debuffs, debuffs. The Mystic is a debuffing class, yet most of their debuffs do not work in PvP. For instance: When a Mystic slows melee, in PvP they should also be able to reduce the casting speed of Combat Arts since most PvP fights are over before most melee classed run out of combat arts. Also strength debuffs in PvP should debuff more strength than they do. There are far too many classes with 600-900 strength so 100 strength reduction really doesn't mean anything.

Probably true.

• Give the Mystic back the parry they once had during the release of the game. I quit the game back when they first removed my Mystics parry. They never should have lost it.

Nice idea but i don't see much of a chance of this happening.  It would make sense.  Mystics= melee option, so having parry would really help. 

[Bloodfa]

Decrease in casting times would be a simple fix, wouldn't it?  And that seems to be one of the biggest gripes brought up by Shaman players on both sides, right?  Seems like an easy solution (relatively).  We got a bandwagon I can jump on with this?

[Stuckx]

Would probably require a recast time reduction as well..No point in having faster cast times when you have to wait for your wards to come back up,after they were burned down 1 second after being cast.

[Guld_Ulrish]

I would, like to see some changes too, Like a boost on ouer wards would be good, a other ide is to make Shamans mitigation group buff do about 300-500 ward against all dmg instead that the mystic does like 150 ward against melee dmg and Dewfilers do 400 agaisnt magic dmg. I Played Necro and Defiler moast solo, but there is no point anymore so it ended up that I started a Scout on Naga instead like all others xD