Are troubs really that bad?

[Jehannum]

Jeger_Wulf wrote:

> It has nothing to do with the class being borked, broken, unbalanced > or whatever because, as many have posted, troubs can do what they > were made to do and can do it well.

I think I agree. The troubadour isn't borked, broken, or unbalanced - it's under-populated. As such, I would like to see changes to the class that would attract more players, while keeping the vision of the class intact. (I assume the class vision is group caster support.)

It's a crying shame my Illusionist has never grouped with a troubadour in 73 levels. :/

The class vision is, as it has always been, to provide defensive buffs caster support.  We are, and have always been, at war with Oceania. 

I guess the trouble is I have difficulty seeing how Sony can make troubadours a more desirable class to play, without either overpowering us as we were at launch or risking the removal of what's drawn existing troubs (other than buffbots, of course) to the class.  With a class which has such broad (if weak) capability, that risk is present in almost any aspect of what we do; I love my trouby for reasons which probably differ greatly from those of any other troubadour here present, and I'd want neither my reasons, nor theirs, to be invalidated.  Bad enough when they changed the dirge/troubadour split from offense/defense to caster/melee - this has the potential to be even worse.

[Jeger_Wulf]

> I guess the trouble is I have difficulty seeing how Sony can make > troubadours a more desirable class to play, without either overpowering us

I'm not here to worry about whether a class is over-powered or not. If I'm having fun, I don't really care if someone else is over-powered. I'm here to worry about class population. If we make changes that increase the troubadour population until it ranks 16th in population out of the 24 classes, but you think it makes the class over-powered that wouldn't worry me a bit.

Here is why:

How does one decide if a class is over-powered? What if I think a class is under-powered, and you think it's over-powered - how can we decide who is right? How many points of DPS is worth a power regen buff? How much heal ability is feign death worth? How many points of mitigation is worth the ability to stealth? How much ability to solo is worth being wanted in groups? How much "being wanted in raids" is worth "being bored silly"?

There is no objective way to calculate the "power" of a class. This means there is no objective way to calculate whether it is "over-powered." However, there are some general indicators. If a lot of people start playing a class, the indication is that it's over-powered. If a lot of players leave a class for another, the indication is it's "under-powered." Anything else is just your opinion against mine.

[Menaelin]

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Choons@Splitpaw wrote:

The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!

I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.

I believe the thread solicits all kinds of responses, not just ones that echo negative stuff about troubs. Some of us don't think troubs are "that bad."

[Menaelin]

Jeger_Wulf wrote:

> I've said it before, but on my server, I see bards all the time.

You're a lucky.

I have three toons over 70 and in all my grouping (outside raids or guild HQs runs) I have never grouped with a troub - not once. 

> I think it's safe to say that they're among the least played classes in the > game, but this doesn't mean that they are an endangered species that > needs special attention in order to have its population boosted.

Your view is rational, so I can't come up with an objective counter-argument.

Speaking for myself, I'd love to see more troubs so I can group with one from time-to-time. I have two casters that have hit 70 without ever grouping with a troub (even in raids). It's a purely subjective argument, but it's how I feel.

Edit: My main (Karc) would SSOOOOOOO love to have a troubie to group with regularly. I can't even imagine the difference it would make when Karc gets into machine-gun mode. " />

Ah, okay. Well I see where you're coming from with this. I guess I'm lucky to be on AB, because while troubs are relatively rare, you do see one every now and again, and I actually see plenty of dirges populating Norrath.

[Pik'ee]

Menaelin wrote:

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Choons@Splitpaw wrote:

The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!

I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.

I believe the thread solicits all kinds of responses, not just ones that echo negative stuff about troubs. Some of us don't think troubs are "that bad."

Thankyou Menaelin. I don't think troubs are "that bad", I do of course think we could use/need improvements in both dps and utility.Why I had issue with Jeger there was because he replied to a response from me where I claimed that no matter what (dps) class you play, we all have the same underlying mechanic. Buffs are up, we engage and we cycle through CAs/spells to the best of our ability. He claimed this was not true. That my comment was worthy of "ad nauseum", and I found THAT to be basically an attack on me and my thoughts. Hence my reply.Do not get me wrong, I'd love to see improvements, and think they're needed. I'm still not entirely sure why it is Jeger and others say troub is "boring" to play. Is it because of the relatively low dps? It can't be because you have nothing to do during a fight, we always have abilities up to use, same as most other classes. How is pressing buttons for a troub inherently more boring than pressing buttons for a warlock say?And I will always read posts about people unhappy with troubs, now and then people come up with good ideas and suggestions, and indeed jeger's posts in this thread after the one where he attacked what I said have on the whole been far more detailed and constructive, and that's great. This would be a rubbish forum if we just came here and posted I love my troub!There is no denying there is a low troub population, but I think at least some of this comes from being a more group oriented class. We can solo, sure, but it takes more time, luck, skill, danger, whatever than many other classes. Especially with the game now being so full of solo content, the attraction of a troubadour is low. Up until the release of RoK, a troubadour could solo almost any heroic mob in the game, given a bit of space and a LOT of patience, but now with the mez resist rates/immunities even this is pretty much denied us. Not that I ever considered it "fun" as such, but perhaps others did or still do.

[Cadori Seraphim]

Menaelin wrote:

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Choons@Splitpaw wrote:

The only thing deserving of the comment "ad nauseum" are your consistent whining posts about how you don't enjoy your troub Jeger.We get it, it's ok. Delete him and move on pls.Bye!

I agree with the poster you are attacking here..If you dont wish to read such threads about people that are unhappy with their troub, then don't.. No one forced you to click on this thread and start reading it.

I believe the thread solicits all kinds of responses, not just ones that echo negative stuff about troubs. Some of us don't think troubs are "that bad."

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks.. There is no need for insults, no matter what side of the line you are on regarding this topic.I personally like my Troub, and think they, as a class, could use some work. I certainly dont think they are *that* bad either..

[Pik'ee]

Before continuing to accuse me of insulting Jeger, read my post directly above yours please, and go back and read the post I made earlier, and Jeger's reply to it. If you still think Jeger didn't try to belittle me and my post, we'll obviously never agree on anything.Except that we both like our troubs and both think they need some work...

[Cadori Seraphim]

Would you feel better if I thought both of you are being rude to one another and that really isn't needed here?We are supposed to be bubbly, instrument wielding, song singing ...  Well you get my point

[Pik'ee]

Yes! That would give me a warm feeling inside!Now what we need are some positives...what is it people feel we're lacking? Is it simply down to low dps numbers? Jeger enjoys his warlock and Illu more than his troub, both of which put out awesome dps in the right hands. Is this what he, and others, feel is lacking in our class?

[RanmaBoyType]

Choons@Splitpaw wrote:

--snipAnd I will always read posts about people unhappy with troubs, now and then people come up with good ideas and suggestions, and indeed jeger's posts in this thread after the one where he attacked what I said have on the whole been far more detailed and constructive, and that's great. This would be a rubbish forum if we just came here and posted I love my troub!

snip---

I love my troub

I had a 70 conji in a raiding alliance.  Usually parsed in the top 3 dps every raid (if not number 1)  Made a troub cause our raid force did not have one, and never turned back. (this was about a year.2 ago) I absolutely love my troub.

My troub is 80 and still raiding (just started teir 2 now) my conji is sitting at 71.

I just do not find my troub boring to play.  There is always something to be doing in raid and group fights.  Charm and mez (with aa's) have proven above and beyond how i used them in t7 now when you get to the deeper dungeons in seb/chardok.  when you are fighting the 86 heroics in lower seb, an add can wipe the group, not anymore.

I think our role in raids have gotten even better, and i have stated before - no more root/daze on POTM.  no more conc slot on self buff.  i had a raidwide of 1900 in our last protectors realm zone.  thats 1900 more raidwide DPS than the autofollo troub does.  Countersong is such a nice touch on those big AoE's as well.

So in conclusion, i just plain old love my troub.  I just cannot see what it is others find "boring" about the class, other than when you push that button, the big number does not go up over the mobs head.  And if this is solely the case, then i agree that the troub is not the class for you (or whomever it is that wants to pruely see big numbers)

[Frigid2000]

I enjoy playing my troub in raids as well - but unless it's certain named fights, I don't use mez, ever. It gets broken all the time in PuG groups, because people are so used to the "yararagghhh, must.. kill.. everything.. at.. once" and so in love with their AoE's, that I generally get yelled at for doing it. Which is mostly why I run with the guild. But, I'm not complaining about groups either. It's the extreme lack of DPS/soloability that makes it hard.

And with all due respect, I call BS on the 1900 zonewide parse.

[Cadori Seraphim]

Choons@Splitpaw wrote:

Yes! That would give me a warm feeling inside!Now what we need are some positives...what is it people feel we're lacking? Is it simply down to low dps numbers? Jeger enjoys his warlock and Illu more than his troub, both of which put out awesome dps in the right hands. Is this what he, and others, feel is lacking in our class?

You know, honestly I think giving us the ability to use poisons like all of the other scout classes can.. would do it for me.We can do dps, I realize this.. but its very gear/weapon dependant also. I think the use of poisons would make that little push that alot of us are seeking. I dont believe it would over do it though either.As far as some of the other comments I have seen, I dont get some of them.. I mean the fact that Troubs are low in numbers I dont feel is because the class needs work. I just feel, and have posted this before, that its really based on what the person finds *fun*. If you like to see uber numbers and high dps, troub is not going to be the class you pick.. and if you like taking the big hits,  like to protect your healers and relying on your healers to keep you alive then again, Troub isnt going to be what you choose. If you like healing your groups wounds and curing their ailments, yet once again Troub isnt going to be for you.We do so many things to *help* an entire group and none of it stands out at all.. like mentioned above.. and some people just dont like that at all.. and want to be in that *spotlight* so to speak.I think that is the basis of why Troubs are one of the least played. NOT because they suck.

[Thrashercat]

Sidori@Crushbone wrote:

Choons@Splitpaw wrote:

Yes! That would give me a warm feeling inside!Now what we need are some positives...what is it people feel we're lacking? Is it simply down to low dps numbers? Jeger enjoys his warlock and Illu more than his troub, both of which put out awesome dps in the right hands. Is this what he, and others, feel is lacking in our class?

You know, honestly I think giving us the ability to use poisons like all of the other scout classes can.. would do it for me.We can do dps, I realize this.. but its very gear/weapon dependant also. I think the use of poisons would make that little push that alot of us are seeking. I dont believe it would over do it though either.

QFE!I would love to be able to use poisons. I really don't see how it would hinder our class at all. We still wouldn't top the dps parse, so the assasins and brigands could stop worrying about that We would be able to keep up with other scout classes and it would make soloing a bit easier.I have slowly started to see a change on my server and I think its called the dissemination of knowledge. People are LOOKING for bards for a group and actively looking for troubs! I almost died when I saw that. People would ask for dps or healers, but to be singled out...it was kind of amazing. I think that people are finally starting to see the good that we bring to a group and how incredibly useful we are. We are essential for raids, which is another plus. I kind of like being one of the few rare troubs running around.I guess I wish that there would be a little more to distinguish us as a class, besides a jump in dps. Make us more than just a little different from dirges. Just my 2 cp!

[bryldan]

The only thing i would like to see honestly the most is for us to be able to solo better. This mez back up crap is honestly for the birds...Maybe make our charm actually work good??? To have a ally that would help a lot and honestly if we had more of a perm charm it would not make us completely opd. We do less dps than a coercer who can charm so if they can get one we should be able to get one also.

[Artist]

Come on! Maybe bards are meant to be the least played classes? People come to EQ2 at the first time. They see a list of classes and what they think? "I want to be a ninja-style fearsome assassin", "I want to throw fireballs, lightning and stuff like a mighty wizard", "I want to be a bad-a*s corrupted undead master necromancer" etc. Our nice girls tend to spend more time customizing their look, than selecting right class. What they think? "Blood, violence and such are not for me, I want to be a self-sacrificing nurse or, maybe a wise women-doctor", or "Taking care of my beloved chosen, who will protect me with his strong chest, is what I need."

After playing with our first character we usually create a newer one to try it. This time we make decision taking into consideration server-wide mainstream: "group looking for heal", "group looking for tank", "group looking for dps", "summoners are good for farming", "brigands and swashbucklers rocks in pvp", etc.

Honestly I see nothing wrong with it. It looks like it should. I cannot imaging Lucan De Lire on a game magazine cover, playing a melody like a troubadour.

IMHO bards are chosen ether by very romantic persons or by experienced players, wanted to be support-oriented non-healers.

After all this, let me answer the topic. Are toubs realy that bad?

PvP. No, not bad at all. Cast-on-run, stun, stifle, stealth, increased run speed, evac, traking... Most troubs have good pvp-ranks.

Role-play. No, not worse than any other.

PvE. Depends on personal goals:

Finding a raid-guild. No, not bad. Many guilds are looking for a troub.

Finding a guild-group. No, not bad. We are needed.

Getting in a pick-up raid. Usually not hard.

Finding a PUG. Usually not hard.

Playing in a raid without parsing. Not much differs from any dps-class playing. Press buttons. Blame MT, healers and RL. Cry for loot. Etc. Both win and lose is a cause of team work. If you win, you may be proud as any other.

Playing in a group. Same team-work again.

Playing in a hardcode gould-rain. I don't know. Honestly I don't care. I respect hardcore players. However it is not for me. Actually upon reading this forum I find that playing troubador in a hardcore guild-raid is boring.

Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds.

Solo PvE (heroic mobs and heroic nameds). Yes, really bad.

[Aaramis]

"Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."

Not quite sure I agree with this.  Pre-50 life against even a white con can be scary, let alone a yellow or an orange.  "Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."  What?  Not even my Ranger can do that, and he has stances, poisons, and higher damaging CA's.  I call "BS" on this comment.  Unless by several seconds you mean "several minutes via kiting and using shouts on the run".

Now, reading through this entire thread from start to finish, it seems as though most Troubs enjoy raids;  mostly enjoy groups;  but tend to dislike solo.

I don't think anyone would argue that group or raid Troubadours are boring to play.  Between mezzes, debuffs, shouts, Jesters, PoTM, buffs, etc. it seems most are content with that.

But I don't think Troubs would be overpowered by adding poison access, or upping our shout damage by up to 25-50%.  Trust me, we wouldn't be overpowered.  And it would let us parse a little higher in groups/raids, but more importantly give us a chance at solo aside from having to mez-nuke.

One final note - someone previously asked to define "fun".  And while I realize the difficulty in defining this, as it's quite subjective and will vary from person to person, I think the majority of people would define it as being able to enjoy your class despite what situation you are in.  In EQ2 this translates to meaning that you enjoy your Troub in solo, group, PvP, and raid situations.

Is the Troub fun in all of these situations?

This thread, as well as the "ideas to improve the Troubadour class" thread, seem to suggest it isn't.

[Faelgalad]

What is a Troubadour worth...

It's just really easy to sum up.

5x Items with 12+ Power Reg

2-3 Items with critical hit

2-4 Items with Fastcast

A couple of proc Items

Requiemreflexion: should work like Stoneskin against Areaspells with higher chance (reduced area of things to protect compensated by higher chance to protect), today it's sitting duck in the buff bar.

Instead of Agility buffing, intelligence would be nicer.

Maestro should also increase spell casting speed, as it is inferior to Cacophony of Blades.

We need seriously Melee and Spell crit in our Achivement tree. Dirge and Troubadour are the only 2 of 24 classes that can not skill any kind of critical ability for themself. Easy enough to bring it to DKTM, with an Troubadour/Dirge only add-on, like "+20 Melee, Ranged, Spell Crit if the following is true, Dirge or Troubadour". We need DPS in Raids, as our "worth" has seriously diminished with all those items in RoK. Also DPS would help for leveling up a Bard.

The Proc in the Bard Agility Line needs the ability "don't proc if target is mezmerised", as this blocks a complete Line for us.

The third skill in Agility need more level to stop, as now it stops only level 80, and all T8 Epics are higher!

Our Debuffs need reworking, with the ability to reduce double attack on mobs and lowering their critical chance, with double attack debuff and Spell Crit Debuff for Troubs and Critical Melee debuff for Dirge.

Our mezz shouldn't be broken by open area effects!

But all these words are lost in SOE bad customer contact

[Aaramis]

^^ Agreed on everything except the mez.

The AA lines do need some reworking as well, but I'm not sure if we'll ever get access to melee or spell crits or have DKTM reworked.

Most other classes have to go down an entire line to get 20% or thereabouts crit in *one* type of attack.  We get 7% in 3 (as we can't use heal crit, really), which more or less evens out.  Plus ours affects groupmates to up their chances too.  So increasing this any more could be overpowered compared to other people's AA lines.

I'd also add Charm to that list of things to fix, though

[Artist]

Aaramis wrote:

"Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."

Not quite sure I agree with this.  Pre-50 life against even a white con can be scary, let alone a yellow or an orange.  "Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."  What?  Not even my Ranger can do that, and he has stances, poisons, and higher damaging CA's.  I call "BS" on this comment.  Unless by several seconds you mean "several minutes via kiting and using shouts on the run".

...skipped...

Solo mobs usually takes from 3 seconds (green trash) to 30-40 seconds (hard orange) to kill. Orange mobs are hard as their description says, but surely possible after moderate debuffing with all, including magic mitigation of int doll (start with it).

Are you sure you are not confused solo down arrow green trash with heroic groups?

(That 3 seconds was on 9 levels lower green crab with one arrow down, I just released double shot, one bow auto-atack hit, and 2 or 3 fast CA)

Simple duo of illusionist + troubadour usually burns everything in a few seconds if it is NOT heroic. Lucky me has two illusionists friends.

How can I prove that I can kill an orange mob solo in less than 60 seconds, if you don't trust me?

Again, I am NOT talking about HEROIC mobs and nameds. Troubadors are not supposed to kill them, do they?

[Aaramis]

Artist wrote:

Solo mobs usually takes from 3 seconds (green trash) to 30-40 seconds (hard orange) to kill. Orange mobs are hard as their description says, but surely possible after moderate debuffing with all, including magic mitigation of int doll (start with it).

Are you sure you are not confused solo down arrow green trash with heroic groups?

(That 3 seconds was on 9 levels lower green crab with one arrow down, I just released double shot, one bow auto-atack hit, and 2 or 3 fast CA)

Simple duo of illusionist + troubadour usually burns everything in a few seconds if it is NOT heroic. Lucky me has two illusionists friends. " width="15" height="15" />

How can I prove that I can kill an orange mob solo in less than 60 seconds, if you don't trust me? " width="15" height="15" />

Again, I am NOT talking about HEROIC mobs and nameds. Troubadors are not supposed to kill them, do they?

1) Yes, I'm pretty sure I'm not confusing down arrow green solo cons with heroic cons.  I'm also fairly sure I'm not colorblind, or suffer from any sort of lucid problems.  (I'll give you a hint - my character has a Mystic Moppet Billy disguise.  I've played for more than a week :p)

2) Double-shot, bow auto-attack, and then "2 or 3 fast CA's" does not equate to 3 seconds.  And even on a green down arrow mob 9 levels lower than you, it's still going to take a wee bit of work.  We simply don't have those ultra-high damaging CA's or spells to take something down that fast.

3) a Troub + any caster can take down monsters fast.  In fact, pretty much any duo in the game can do that (except, perhaps, 2 Wardens :p  ouch...)

You've also now gone from "I can kill any solo in seconds" to "I can kill an orange mob in less than 60 seconds".  It keeps getting higher and higher.  I think you'll find ingame that it's closer to a minute or 3 in total time.Most people won't argue that a Troub can mez/debuff/nuke most things to death - given time.  But just be careful with the wild boasts that you can kill anything in "seconds" (which usually suggests the lower end of a minute, not 59.999 seconds).

And no, I don't think Troubs are supposed to kill heroics.  Most Scouts struggle somewhat with heroics, actually, from what I've seen.  Unless you're a Ranger and have a lot of room to kite.

[Artist]

OK. I am level 30 at the moment. I went to Zek, enabled logging, an killed a level 36 ork, taking screenshots. According to ACT the fight was 51 secconds long. Here are the all screens. Sorry for Russian, I play localized version. Harla Dar server.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...gebeforeco3.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...ngeafterwa1.jpg

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/...angedoneyt5.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...rangeactdd8.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/...ngestatscx2.jpg

[Menaelin]

Aaramis wrote:

"Solo PvE (non-heroic mobs up to orange). Not bad. Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."

Not quite sure I agree with this.  Pre-50 life against even a white con can be scary, let alone a yellow or an orange.  "Possible to kill any solo mob in several seconds."  What?  Not even my Ranger can do that, and he has stances, poisons, and higher damaging CA's.  I call "BS" on this comment.  Unless by several seconds you mean "several minutes via kiting and using shouts on the run".

Now, reading through this entire thread from start to finish, it seems as though most Troubs enjoy raids;  mostly enjoy groups;  but tend to dislike solo.

I don't think anyone would argue that group or raid Troubadours are boring to play.  Between mezzes, debuffs, shouts, Jesters, PoTM, buffs, etc. it seems most are content with that.

But I don't think Troubs would be overpowered by adding poison access, or upping our shout damage by up to 25-50%.  Trust me, we wouldn't be overpowered.  And it would let us parse a little higher in groups/raids, but more importantly give us a chance at solo aside from having to mez-nuke.

One final note - someone previously asked to define "fun".  And while I realize the difficulty in defining this, as it's quite subjective and will vary from person to person, I think the majority of people would define it as being able to enjoy your class despite what situation you are in.  In EQ2 this translates to meaning that you enjoy your Troub in solo, group, PvP, and raid situations.

Is the Troub fun in all of these situations?

This thread, as well as the "ideas to improve the Troubadour class" thread, seem to suggest it isn't.

I didn't start kiting until my late 60s and I seemed to do just fine on white-to-yellow con solo mobs. And I wasn't sitting around waiting for health/mana after every fight, either.Just the other day, I killed a yellow ^ mob without too much trouble, and no, it didn't take 5 minutes and I didn't have to mez him to wait for health regen.I've found it necessary to spec for solo play in order to do so efficiently (I'm roundshield spec'd at the moment), but the same can be said for many other classes in the game. Troubs aren't an especially maligned class. Others have to make sacrifices in order to solo to their potential as well.By the way, how are you kiting? I usually ranged pull, snare, debuff, then cheap shot and go in melee for the rest of it. Are you trying to take down the mob just with arrows or something? If so, yeah, that's going to take you a few minutes each time.

[RanmaBoyType]

Faelgalad wrote:

What is a Troubadour worth...

It's just really easy to sum up.

5x Items with 12+ Power Reg (per group member)

2-3 Items with critical hit (2-3 items with ranged crit, 2-3 items with spell crit and 2-3 items with heal crit, per group member)

2-4 Items with Fastcast (2-4 items with fast cast per group member)

A couple of proc Items (1 that procs 50% of the time and another that procs 100% of the time every 3 minutes for everyone else in your group)

88 str and stamina worth of adornments for your entire group

45% run speed mounts for your entire group

35% worth of deaggro for your entire group (minus fighters)

45% haste item, which stacks with your current haste item for every group member

Requiemreflexion: should work like Stoneskin against Areaspells with higher chance (reduced area of things to protect compensated by higher chance to protect), today it's sitting duck in the buff bar.

Instead of Agility buffing, intelligence would be nicer.

Maestro should also increase spell casting speed, as it is inferior to Cacophony of Blades.  (ehh im leary in saying it is inferior now that we see no nil effects when using the ability)

We need seriously Melee and Spell crit in our Achivement tree. Dirge and Troubadour are the only 2 of 24 classes that can not skill any kind of critical ability for themself. Easy enough to bring it to DKTM, with an Troubadour/Dirge only add-on, like "+20 Melee, Ranged, Spell Crit if the following is true, Dirge or Troubadour". We need DPS in Raids, as our "worth" has seriously diminished with all those items in RoK. (big disagree as our buffs stack with said RoK items) Also DPS would help for leveling up a Bard.

The Proc in the Bard Agility Line needs the ability "don't proc if target is mezmerised", as this blocks a complete Line for us.  (you can click off the poison on your target anytime you need to)

The third skill in Agility need more level to stop, as now it stops only level 80, and all T8 Epics are higher!

Our Debuffs need reworking, with the ability to reduce double attack on mobs and lowering their critical chance, with double attack debuff and Spell Crit Debuff for Troubs and Critical Melee debuff for Dirge.  (possible, interesting idea but we are not broken without this)

Our mezz shouldn't be broken by open area effects!  (weird, mine is not)

But all these words are lost in SOE bad customer contact " width="15" height="15">

i fixed your post for you

Also in reference to the fellow troub who takes several minutes to kill 1 non heroic solo mob, i really recommend reviewing several of the posts on solo play.

[Aaramis]

Menaelin - I use a similar tactic to you, only I tend to pull with a DD shout instead of arrows.  Otherwise, the setup is the same.  As far as kiting goes, if it's white or higher I find as an Arasai (low sta) I tend to get pumelled in straight up melee, and have to kite for a little while first softening the mob up with debuffs and DD shouts before I close to melee.  Essentially the same tactic as you mentioned, but with a bit more kiting involved, that's all.  On occasion, I'll open up with the stealthed backstab, but I find it to be more trouble than it's worth, as you then have to debuff and shout while getting pumelled, which takes up a lot of precious time.

It seems the main difference between us is that I've thus far refused to use a shield.  Call me stubborn, but I don't feel that I should *have* to spec shield to be able to solo.  That may change when my Troub gets high enough for Kunark, though.  We'll see.

As for the pictures - thanks for posting those.  30 was one of those levels where armor made a huge difference (pre-30, armor sets aren't the best, unless you get Tim. Deep gear).  But that was well done soloing an orange, I'm impressed.  I didn't think it was possible without kiting.

[Repler]

You can cancel the poison any time you want, but why should we have to settle for that?  When the poison procs every three seconds, and you are already in a battle, right-clicking and canceling something takes time that we shouldn't need to be wasting.  I don't understand why you would just brush that off because there is a "fix", there's no reason "poison concoction" shouldn't be toggle able.  I don't mind having to pay attention to my spells maintained window, but it only really hurts while soloing and a few seconds in a solo battle can hurt when you aren't a tank and can't heal yourself.  It REALLY hurts when it breaks your mez and you then have 15 seconds to figure something else out.  Is manually cancelling buffs and procs part of the gameplay mechanic of other classes?

[Menaelin]

Aaramis wrote:

Menaelin - I use a similar tactic to you, only I tend to pull with a DD shout instead of arrows.  Otherwise, the setup is the same.  As far as kiting goes, if it's white or higher I find as an Arasai (low sta) I tend to get pumelled in straight up melee, and have to kite for a little while first softening the mob up with debuffs and DD shouts before I close to melee.  Essentially the same tactic as you mentioned, but with a bit more kiting involved, that's all.  On occasion, I'll open up with the stealthed backstab, but I find it to be more trouble than it's worth, as you then have to debuff and shout while getting pumelled, which takes up a lot of precious time.

It seems the main difference between us is that I've thus far refused to use a shield.  Call me stubborn, but I don't feel that I should *have* to spec shield to be able to solo.  That may change when my Troub gets high enough for Kunark, though.  We'll see.

As for the pictures - thanks for posting those.  30 was one of those levels where armor made a huge difference (pre-30, armor sets aren't the best, unless you get Tim. Deep gear).  But that was well done soloing an orange, I'm impressed.  I didn't think it was possible without kiting.

I didn't spec for roundshield until I was about 68 or 69, but it has definitely helped in RoK. Taking mobs in close quarters is still not such a great idea, but you get the Round Bash ability, which is invaluable in terms of immobilizing the mob, especially since the closed encounter AE interrupt doesn't always proc for a knockdown.I would argue that you don't have to spec this way in order to solo with a troub. But if you want to solo more efficiently, it will help a lot. And again, I've found this to be the case with several classes in the game, not just troubs. Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).

[RanmaBoyType]

Menaelin wrote:

Aaramis wrote:

Menaelin - I use a similar tactic to you, only I tend to pull with a DD shout instead of arrows.  Otherwise, the setup is the same.  As far as kiting goes, if it's white or higher I find as an Arasai (low sta) I tend to get pumelled in straight up melee, and have to kite for a little while first softening the mob up with debuffs and DD shouts before I close to melee.  Essentially the same tactic as you mentioned, but with a bit more kiting involved, that's all.  On occasion, I'll open up with the stealthed backstab, but I find it to be more trouble than it's worth, as you then have to debuff and shout while getting pumelled, which takes up a lot of precious time.

It seems the main difference between us is that I've thus far refused to use a shield.  Call me stubborn, but I don't feel that I should *have* to spec shield to be able to solo.  That may change when my Troub gets high enough for Kunark, though.  We'll see.

As for the pictures - thanks for posting those.  30 was one of those levels where armor made a huge difference (pre-30, armor sets aren't the best, unless you get Tim. Deep gear).  But that was well done soloing an orange, I'm impressed.  I didn't think it was possible without kiting.

I didn't spec for roundshield until I was about 68 or 69, but it has definitely helped in RoK. Taking mobs in close quarters is still not such a great idea, but you get the Round Bash ability, which is invaluable in terms of immobilizing the mob, especially since the closed encounter AE interrupt doesn't always proc for a knockdown.I would argue that you don't have to spec this way in order to solo with a troub. But if you want to solo more efficiently, it will help a lot. And again, I've found this to be the case with several classes in the game, not just troubs. Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).

I have to agree.  not necessary, but it makes a HUGE difference in soloability.  the added stun, plus block, plus DA (plus fortissimo which helps all group members and does not require the shield).  

the mastercrafted roundshield at 72 is not horrible, as well there are some pretty good roundshields you can purchase if you do the faction quests (if i recall jinisk has a godo round shield)

[Artist]

I think the only problem with troubadour is its lack of good scores. If each player in party/raid is scored, we always are at the bottom, no matter how the scores are calculated (usually by ACT, or by solo-ability, or by population, etc.).

We always stay back, looking how our friends, who have chosen "better" classes, win the first place.

[Jeger_Wulf]

> If you still think Jeger didn't try to belittle me and my post, > we'll obviously never agree on anything.

It's hard to communcate via postings what the emotional content is. I did not intend to belittle you at all, although I see it could be taken that way. I apologize for that, but here is the point I was trying to make:

How troubs differ from other classes has been discussed again and again on these boards. Some people see it and some don't. Those who who enjoy their troubs don't see a difference. Those that don't like enjoy their troubs do see a difference.

In all the discussions, I have never seen anyone change their mind. I have never seen anyone on my side say "You're right!! I like my troub again!! I'm going to start playing it right now." I have never seen anyone on your side say "You're right!! I don't like my troub anymore. I'm rerolling tonight!"

Because of this, I think discussing whether troubs differ from other classes is pointless. Some think so and some don't. What should be discussed is whether the class should get improvements based on the low population numbers, and if so, what improvements should be considered.

[Jeger_Wulf]

> Heck, some classes are virtually forced into certain specs if they > want to solo at all (Mystics, anybody?).

My troub is never wearing a roundshield. Call it style, or prejudice, but he's never putting one on.

> I think the only problem with troubadour is its lack of good scores

My Mystic never gets good scores, but I find him fun to play. It's more than just the bad scores, although better scores might help.