Are troubs really that bad?

[Lateral]

Every time I see a class population breakdown, troubadours are always the least played class, only sometimes beaten by Coercers, but since troubs are available to both good & evil then technically theyre the least chosen class to play. Even the FAQ's at the top, the people writing them take a QQ Emo stance and claim the class is hopelessly broken and will never recieve anything good from SOE. Furthermore it seems like a large % of high level troubadours exist only as buffbots being 2boxed or someone making one for a guild then basically going AFK providing buffs for a raid. So, my question, whats so bad about this class? Obviously you cant play one expecting to solo ^^^ toe-to-toe from what I can tell..without mez-kiting for like 20 minutes, and i'm okay with that, group content shouldn't be soloable in the first place.

  So, do troubs really stink that badly even soloing normal solo content? like mowing down green/blue/whites for quests..killing the occasional named ^ mob, are they at least capable of that without ungodly twinked gear/masters? I havent ever played one past level 10 or so, but since leveling up in this game basically consists of killing solo content and not ^^^ nameds.. it shouldnt be that painful or slow to level one given that you get speed, stealth, evac, etc, right?

[Jehannum]

Speed?  Check, almost as much as a druid.  Out of combat, anyhow. 

Stealth?  Check.  Good to get to places.  Not so much for leveling.

Evac?  Check. Good to get out of places.  Not so much for leveling.

DPS that'd make a Templar blush?  Check.

Mitigation to rival a Warlock?  Check.

Avoidance on par with a Shadowknight?  Check.

Heals to rival a Guardian?  You know it, baby.  As long as he doesn't have the Fury 'inherited' heal going.

I know I'm painting a bit of a bleak picture here, but I do love playing my troubador.  We're not generally considered a particularly solo-capable class though, mainly on account of the fact that while we're near-indestructible against a single opponent, our speed is inversely proportional to the extent to which we need to exercise our invulnerability.

In melee, we tend to drop pretty quickly even against similar-leveled solo content (unless exceptionally well-geared).  Kiting is slower since it omits our melee and close-range abilities, as well as limiting those which can't be cast on the run, however it all but eliminates opposing melee damage.  Mezzing eliminates all potential for retaliation (or at least, if managed properly it can do) but slows us significantly more, since each damage cycle must be tailored to the opponent, and needs to wait for the mez (and often stuns) to refresh.

Now, compare our capability in a group.  I increase everyone else's capability to receive, deal, mitigate, etc to a combined benefit of near 20% per toon (mind you I haven't done the numbers in ages, but they should still be close enough).  So while I personally contribute relatively little raw dps, in a full group of 6 I not only pull my own weight as best I can, but give everyone else enough of a boost to amount to a 7th effective member.  It's all about synergy, and unfortunately there's no synergy while soloing.  Makes the effort to gain levels difficult in what appears to have become a primarily solo grind to 80.

Edit - MJK rocks; I assume that's where your forum name's from? 

[Banshye]

I have a 70 wizard who I played for years - but they are literally a dime a dozen and finding a raid spot as a wizard is a challenge. I always loved having a troub in my group when I was wizzing though so I rolled one up last spring.

As my sig file will demonstrate, he's now level 80 and I have to say - I don't feel useless at all. There was a time about 12 levels ago when RoK first launched that I was struggling with soloing but another bard-friend and I worked it out together and I'm killing solo just fine now.

It's sword/board while soloing - pull with the bow, snare, shout, bow style etc until it gets up close. Then its melee styles and damage spells. With AA, the shield allows me to knock down. It isn't as fast as soloing with a wizard but its real effective.

In groups, as the previous poster said - I'm buffing the other members a ton. I dual-wield of course. My groupmates are proc'ing and crit'ing more often, with health song and power song we're able to pull faster. I've got good crowd control with a single target mez and a charm.

Caster oriented groups love me. Even melee oriented groups like me - I'm not as effective as a dirge would be in that setup, but I'm certainly not ineffective either. My Jester's Cap and Perfection of the Maestro are in constant use - making the other dps'rs feel like a real hero every couple of minutes. I even use JC on healers in a tough fight - and they heal at lunatic speed.

I don't know why there are so few troubs - probably because they don't hit for 12,000 and they have the buff-bot rep. But if you're behind the keyboard and you're trying to be good at the class, there's plenty here at your fingertips to keep you busy... and if you're not a peckerwood, that old friends list is going to grow and grow. I get tells all the time asking me to come to groups, raids, etc... even when I'm not LFG... people who I've grouped with before and they are requesting my services.

 So no, I don't think troubs are bad. Perhaps misunderstood.

[MulluwenSingalong]

First of all, I have been playing my troubador since the game is out, so for more than 3 years right now.

 I remember the troubador before we got the nerf bat hitting us, when we were good and that people REALLY wanted us in group (and there was only few of us, so we ALWAYS had groups hahaha! =) ).

Than came the nerf bat, giving our melee buffs to dirge and giving us some caster buff. What the [Removed for Content]? Wasnt troubador the bard that was BUFFING the group and Dirge the bard that was DEBUFFING the mob? How can't I buff the darn melee now? (well I can, but not like I used to do).

Yes, soloing aint easy has a troubador and its even worse in RoK, but HEY, I find it interesting. Get a good round shield, put some AA in the STA line and you are set. You just know how to kite (Ahhh I loved kitting in EQ1 =p) or how to mez, put debuffs, snare, sneak, stab, stun, dmg songs, mez, etc. It's long, but effective, you wont loose too much hp and you'll get the mob down.

And yes, you can kill named mob. Well, I tried some lvl 74 ^^^ mob when I was lvl 73, but he resisted my darn mez a couple times, so I had to run, but I'm pretty sure I could have handled him without being resisted that much. I can easily kill the ^named mob I find everywhere in RoK.

Have fun with the class, we are not the best DPS, nor a good tank. We are a jack of all trades, master of none! (love that sentence from EQ1).

[Jeger_Wulf]

This question has been debated on this board a long time without a lot of agreement. I find the troubadour to be frustrating and somewhat boring. I play him from time-to-time when the guild begs or I otherwise feel motivated. Otherwise, he stays benched in favor of more interesting toons.

I can't say how you will find the troub, though. Try it and see.

[Fuury]

Who would you say is the worse solo, a Troub or a Temp?  I just got back in game when RoK came out and started from scratch.  I love playing support roles and I am going to try a Troub next.  My main goal isn't solo but when the needs arises I don't want it to be utter frustration.

[heaysyl]

Fuury wrote:

Who would you say is the worse solo, a Troub or a Temp?  I just got back in game when RoK came out and started from scratch.  I love playing support roles and I am going to try a Troub next.  My main goal isn't solo but when the needs arises I don't want it to be utter frustration.

ok as someone who has a troub and temp id say my temp is worse solo , i love my troub when i can get a group i can match a tanks dps (with an awful lot of work and mouse click and the right AA lines) at about 1000-1200 , in raids about 7-800 and solo 4-700 (depends on the length of the fight/ how much i have to mez when i remember it) at lvl 75 , as said above it can take time to win a fight but if your willing to take your chances with anything you find , you can win out most the time. ill admit im a bit of a nutter as a troub .. sword and board all the time even when grouped, allways go toe to toe and almost allways forget i have a mez and charm i enjoy it because everything , all the way up solo, is a battle to the death in the true sense you and the mob are both in the red and doing everything you can to make sure you have the last blow. now onto temp .. the fact mine is still only in her 30's even though ive had her for almost as long as my tank says how i feel about it but they can still be good in a fight if you enjoy playing them. ill use my friend as an example here rather than mine as i hate it. but he can out DPS an Inq on a good day , and ill allways ask him over any other healer if i need help. he did much the same as i did with my troub, although we were grinding to 70 at the same time we both prefer to solo most the time and he had about as much trouble as i did. mainly because when your solo you cant dps as much as you can in a or a group as a healer, pretty much because in a raid or group somone else is taking the damage not you so you can cast quicker without the inturupts. at the end of the day though your best bet is to start both , work your way to 30 ish which is easy enough to do and then decide about that level which YOU prefer and run with it.

[knightofround]

Bards are never popular in any MMO. It's just not a playstyle that many people enjoy. When people think of "fantasy" they think of some dude decked out in plate, some robe wearing wizzie, or since LotR got popular, bow toting pansies.That bards solo terribly is icing on the cake, most of the toons in EQ2 are alts, and any alt must go thru a solo "trial by fire" the first 30-60 levels until it becomes easier to find a group. And then they have to solo again 70-75.Game mechanics wise, I think you will be hard pressed to find classes more desired than troubs. Illusionists, maybe, as well as Mystic/Defilers, but thats it.

[Windain]

I play bards in any MMO I have played that have the bard class (Hey WoW, how about making a bard so I don't get bored after playing for a month or two).  EQ2 is one of the best games, but probably the worst implimentation of the bard. 

EQ bard is/was king... bad melee, but better than a cleric... great songs that made us useful in groups, but also given some random abilities so that we weren't just buff bots.

FFXI bard made the songs the #1 priority.  Bards could barely do any melee damage, but their songs were so powerful that no one cared they could barely do melee.  On a side note, FFXI's job system in any other game would make the game 100x better... so good.

Vanguard bard was amazing.  They did a very good amount of damage and gave very powerful songs.  I almost felt overpowered playing a bard in Vanguard.  The song creation idea was great and could only be expanded more.  The bard was the only thing that kept me playing.

EQ2 bards feel very watered down.  I don't feel like a bard, I feel like a very low powered rogue with a variety of weak buffs.  Bards are really only used for about 5 songs total (including both dirge and troubador songs).  Spell/Melee Proc songs, Percussion of Stone, Power regen song, Hate reduction/boosting, and chime/precision.  Our haste song is a borderline joke compared to illusionists, our hp regen is really only a solo song, charm is about 5x too short to be useful for anything other than 'hey lets let this thing follow me!', stat buffs don't do much, +skill songs are rarely useful, resists don't do much, and our evasion boosters are not nearly as good as others.  Requiem of Reflection should just make us look like mirrors and be a fluff buff... I would use it more often than I do now.

There are a few game flaws that prevent the bards from becoming a powerful class:

1) Buffs galore.  Just about every single class gets a ton of buffs.  Many classes get buffs that make bard buffs look weak.  In just about every other game, bards were the only ones who could pump up a large amount of buffs.  With every class giving 5 buffs, there is only a tiny advantage.

2) Original archetype system.  This made us be scouts, not bards.  They couldn't make bards 1 class because of this system and thus we had to halve the ability of the bards into two different subclasses.  But that doesn't matter because we are scouts first and bards second, right?  If that was true, bards would be invited for dps... yet I have trouble out damaging priests and tanks. 

3) Buffs bots.  The song system is so bland that we basically become buff bots.  Our melee is insignificant on raids and most groups that someone can just box us for the few buffs that are needed and then just let them sit there doing nothing.

My thoughts on how to fix these problems:

1) Give bards either more concentration than other classes (7?) and increase the strength or quantity of buffs.  I really don't care about damage, I picked bards to make others stronger.  I'd even take songs that helped everyone in the group BUT me... although soloing is pretty rough

2) They almost need to rework the classes again now that archetypes are semi broken apart.  There are so many classes and so little differences between a lot of them that they all seem extraordinarily watered down.  I'd merge the enchanters, bards, rogues, monks, and probably most of the priests to their classes.  Then I would take the remaining classes and increase the differences.  Paladins vs Shadowknights and Rangers vs Assassins are pretty good examples of a decent split... they are quite different, but could still use some alterations.  When merging the classes, give each class most of the abilities of each.  You couldn't give them all because it would make them overpowered.  And now with a much lower amount of classes, you could introduce some classes like the beastlord that many wanted.  If only this wasn't practically impossible and unlikely.  Chances of it happening .001%, but it would make the game even better.  The class system is probably the only thing holding back this game.

3) Creativity would need to be used to undo the buff bot.  I think the best way would be by introducing instruments, then requiring the bards to do something to play the instrument that temporarily 1) boosts songs strength 2) plays songs above the concentration limit or 3) causes us to do a unique ability.  They should almost make bards play a mini-game.  Equip an instrument which opens up a new window.  Within this window you have to hit buttons to complete songs.  The more correct the song, the stronger its effects.  Ta-da bards become fun, more useful, and becomes stronger than a buff bot.

I love bards and I love this game.  Even though I have my complaints about the bards, I like to play them more than other classes.  It is almost frustrating seeing so many things that could be done to make it better, but knowing none of it will ever happen.

[Tokam]

yes

[Jesters]

3) Creativity would need to be used to undo the buff bot. I think the best way would be by introducing instruments, then requiring the bards to do something to play the instrument that temporarily 1) boosts songs strength 2) plays songs above the concentration limit or 3) causes us to do a unique ability. They should almost make bards play a mini-game. Equip an instrument which opens up a new window. Within this window you have to hit buttons to complete songs. The more correct the song, the stronger its effects. Ta-da bards become fun, more useful, and becomes stronger than a buff bot.

_________

hey i noticed that in Gorowyn by the scout trainers there are two NPC's that are talking about instruments one even has a little tag under the name,  but i think making bards into a mini-game would make us a joke as a class

i do enjoy playing my troub, and enjoy going on raids with him, i really enjoy soloing both pvp and pve.  i have all proc gear and normally i can parse fairly decent ( between 1.5k and 2k at lvl 70) and thats on a labs run.  the aa in the mez and charm makes us decent at soloing because we can charm one mob and mez another and take the rest down with potm jc and throwing our debuffs on the target. 

personally the only thing i think needs to be changed from what i hear is the T8 gear, ive heard that we get alot of +spell and + combat art gear rather than the proc gear that i so much enjoyed at lvl 70 

[Aaramis]

My sentiments are similar to Windain.  I've played Bards in a variety of MMORPGs, including EQ1.  Some were well implemented, some were poorly implemented.

All told, however, the EQ2 Bard feels incomplete compared to EQ1.   Bards were previously the "jack-of-all-trades, master of none" class.  They could melee, they could fear kite, they could mez, they could charm, they could run faster than light, they could buff melee and caster classes, etc. etc.  In EQ2, we have about 1/5th of the versatility of the EQ1 bard, and even then some of it is broken.

The end result for me is that I simply can't stand soloing on my Troubadour.  It's painful for me.  Even with the "bonus" of the KoS line halving our HO wheel recasts (which in theory should double our dps), my Troub still gets outdps'ed by all of my alts.  My Ranger can do better damage, and kite and never get hit. My Bruiser can out dps the Troub, and he's a tank class with better avoidance, a mez, self-heals, and feign death.  My Conjuror has far better damage capabilities, and comes with a high mitigation pet tank that can AE taunt, and is healable.  So what are Troubs left with for solo?  Well, you either go the shield line if you want to melee (I prefer dual wield and don't want to feel gimped by doing so);  or you kite (if I wanted to do that, I'd play my Ranger);  or you nuke/mez (zzzzz, wake me up in 2 hours when the mob is dead).

It saddens me, it really does.  I love the concept of the Troubadour.  A bard class with various sonic/mental damage shouts, run speed, buffs, and melee capabilities in and of itself is awesome.  It's just the implementation and eventual nerfs that bother me.  I want a jack-of-all-trades, that brings something to a group, raid, or to solo.  Troubadour fails in the solo department for me :/

And I really wish that wasn't the case.

[Cuz]

Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.

[RanmaBoyType]

Cuz wrote:

Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.

i am glad to see you pay your $20 a month to be bored out of your mind. 

the whole idea of fun factor is an opinion relative to each individual player.  as stated many times over just because one person is bored with a particular class, does not mean another is.  If you are "bored" with a particular class, don't come crying to the forums to change the class how you want it should be, try playing something else.

I know many people who think healers are boring.  Does that mean healers are a [Removed for Content] class, and need to be changed?

[Cuz]

RanmaBoyType wrote:

Cuz wrote:

Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.

i am glad to see you pay your $20 a month to be bored out of your mind. 

the whole idea of fun factor is an opinion relative to each individual player.  as stated many times over just because one person is bored with a particular class, does not mean another is.  If you are "bored" with a particular class, don't come crying to the forums to change the class how you want it should be, try playing something else.

I know many people who think healers are boring.  Does that mean healers are a [Removed for Content] class, and need to be changed?

What I want is a modicum of challenge added to the class. I'm not surprised that Captain UsePrecisionAsMuchAsPhisicallyPossible would be against that.

[Shalwin]

Troubs are worthless, if you're thinking about playing this class because you've played a bard in some other game, stop right now and pick another class.  If you would like to play a class that doesn't matter whether or not you're at the keyboard pressing buttons, then this is the class for you.  Forget about soloing with this class unless you like things that are slow and painful (to you).  This class should only be played as a boxed character as that is clearly what it was designed for.

 If you want to play a kickass bard, go get Vanguard, you'll be much happier. 

[RanmaBoyType]

Cuz wrote:

RanmaBoyType wrote:

Cuz wrote:

Bad? No. Boring? Oh yeah.

i am glad to see you pay your $20 a month to be bored out of your mind. 

the whole idea of fun factor is an opinion relative to each individual player.  as stated many times over just because one person is bored with a particular class, does not mean another is.  If you are "bored" with a particular class, don't come crying to the forums to change the class how you want it should be, try playing something else.

I know many people who think healers are boring.  Does that mean healers are a [Removed for Content] class, and need to be changed?

What I want is a modicum of challenge added to the class. I'm not surprised that Captain UsePrecisionAsMuchAsPhisicallyPossible would be against that.

what a well thought out and intelligent response.  Perhaps the issue you have with your challenge, is that you jsut are not a very well played troubador.  You have it stuck in your mind that we are a buff bot, and will not change.  I am tired of trying to convince you otherwise, but convincing players that actually enjoy their troub to change is not what i woudl consider a well thought out post...

[MulluwenSingalong]

Troubadors are fun, the only downside is that now everyone can do what we do but better.

 Most people can get mana or hp regen higher than what we can do with our songs, can buff str and sta higher than what we can. Anyclass can do better dps (I have wis/str aa down to last skill and sta aa for the shield stuff) and alot of class are better in raids or even in groups.

Still, when I get a good group going, I'm having fun. When I'm raiding, I'm having fun. I new from the starts that bards where not going to have super high dps (played EQ1 bard for a couple years), but I always thought I would have songs that would REALLY buff the entire group and for ALOT, since my role is to buff and dps.

Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us.

Let's all start singing so loud that SoE wont have any choice but to listen to us, go TROUBADORS.

[Menaelin]

MulluwenSingalong wrote:

Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us.

This is such a joke. Can you honestly say that the groups you join aren't significantly improved by your presence?

[RanmaBoyType]

Menaelin wrote:

MulluwenSingalong wrote:

Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us.

This is such a joke. Can you honestly say that the groups you join aren't significantly improved by your presence?

/agree 

so you say class a can buff str/sta better than us, and class B can buff power regen better than us, and class c can buff haste better than us.  Group group can either look for class A, B, and C, or just 1 troub to cover all of it

[Menaelin]

RanmaBoyType wrote:

Menaelin wrote:

MulluwenSingalong wrote:

Thing is, my buffs dont buff enough and my dps aint high enough. We really need some love from SoE, but since they nerfed us, they never helped us.

This is such a joke. Can you honestly say that the groups you join aren't significantly improved by your presence?

/agree 

so you say class a can buff str/sta better than us, and class B can buff power regen better than us, and class c can buff haste better than us.  Group group can either look for class A, B, and C, or just 1 troub to cover all of it

Exactly. And the thing is that, all of these various things we can do add up to a far greater total benefit than if you had a more specialized person in the party, because we can do them all at the same time. I've never once been in a group where people have said or demonstrated through their actions frustration over having a measly troubador tagging along. It seems like things tend to go smoothly when I'm there, and when I've played my other characters alongside troubs, I've noticed the same thing. If a person finds troub gameplay boring (usually because they want to do assassin damage and see our buffs strengthened to boot), then they should play another class, because I think a good many of us find that this boredom is highly exaggerated, more a result of PERSONAL likes/dislikes regarding gameplay, and less an actual problem with the class.Also ...Has anybody ever done a reliable study of parses that takes into account the overall damage benefit to groups/raids given by our debuffs and buffs? I would really love to see somebody take a troubador with attainable gear (instance gear and other stuff that you could get with a respectable amount of game time, and perhaps a bit of light raiding), Adept 3 spells, and a reasonable AA build (something that the average troubador would have, not a highly specialized build just for raiding or anything like that), and actually scour the parses to see what our overall contributed DPS is like. This contributed DPS would take into account personal DPS, DPS resulting from debuffs, and DPS resulting from group buffs. I'm not sure if it's even possible to do such a thing with parsers, but it would be cool to see, and I'm fairly certain it would reveal a very respectable side to our contributions that is often overlooked/ignored just because it doesn't result in orange numbers for us.

[RanmaBoyType]

i once did a post before showing just the damage added to a raid counting in the procs from POTM and Aria's.  i do not recall where the troub then landed if we contributed that to us, but it was somewhere in the top 3 if i recall.

I am doing protectors realm tonight.  i will post my findings afterwards, however the biggest common retort to this type of examination is that it is difficult to see what other classes factor in (say for example a brigand with dispatch, is a noticiable difference in raid DPS, but not something that is parsable)

[Menaelin]

RanmaBoyType wrote:

i once did a post before showing just the damage added to a raid counting in the procs from POTM and Aria's.  i do not recall where the troub then landed if we contributed that to us, but it was somewhere in the top 3 if i recall.

I am doing protectors realm tonight.  i will post my findings afterwards, however the biggest common retort to this type of examination is that it is difficult to see what other classes factor in (say for example a brigand with dispatch, is a noticiable difference in raid DPS, but not something that is parsable)

Even if it's not a foolproof method of determining DPS contribution, I think it's still safe to say that with our personal DPS and the DPS generated as a result of our buffs/debuffs, troubs are doing quite well.

[Tri]

This discussion is as old as the game, it may have even started duringthe first beta though back then bards were a bit different.Even with all these new uber effects on items and the increasing versatilityof other classes the problem dosn't lie in a bard's utility, as they are still mandatory during raids.It's a matter of dull gameplay. There is no tricks to the class, no timing the attacks , no holding back burst damage,no curing / healing, no power transfers, no AEs !!!!!!!!, a nerfed charm , a nerfed mez , no real control skills( see how often the bow stifle works on yellow mobs, you know the mobs on whom you could need it )As a bard, no matter what the situation is, you1 : debuff2 : spam your attacks3 : sometimes you get to mez on a troub or rez with a dirgeAnd unlike other scouts, there is no "rythm" to bard attacks. Which is truely a shame. Of course some spell orders allow better dps output but as long as yourusing any spell that's up and using a Jester's Cap macro you are almost playing the troub to it's full potential.And for those asking for a bone, there has allready been several bones tossed.PotM, selfbuff , adapted crafted gear , more long delay weapons. Yet i still feel something is missing when compared to my other toons.

[RanmaBoyType]

Triag wrote:

This discussion is as old as the game, it may have even started duringthe first beta though back then bards were a bit different.Even with all these new uber effects on items and the increasing versatilityof other classes the problem dosn't lie in a bard's utility, as they are still mandatory during raids.It's a matter of dull gameplay. There is no tricks to the class, no timing the attacks , no holding back burst damage,no curing / healing, no power transfers, no AEs !!!!!!!!, a nerfed charm , a nerfed mez , no real control skills( see how often the bow stifle works on yellow mobs, you know the mobs on whom you could need it )As a bard, no matter what the situation is, you1 : debuff2 : spam your attacks3 : sometimes you get to mez on a troub or rez with a dirgeAnd unlike other scouts, there is no "rythm" to bard attacks. Which is truely a shame. Of course some spell orders allow better dps output but as long as yourusing any spell that's up and using a Jester's Cap macro you are almost playing the troub to it's full potential.And for those asking for a bone, there has allready been several bones tossed.PotM, selfbuff , adapted crafted gear , more long delay weapons. Yet i still feel something is missing when compared to my other toons.

in response - other scouts offer zip, nadda, not a single group buff whatsoever to the group that is the slight bit beneficial.   /cheer for pathfinding perhaps?   2 scouts offer hate transfer, but then again that is only one person buff(granted helpful, IMO not nearly as beneficial as 35% groupwide deaggro), and one scout offers poison buff, which again is also one person.  whereas bards buff all 5 other group members with 5 different buffs that require concentration as well as POTM/jesters.

And i closed my parse after the raid >.<

[Cuz]

RanmaBoyType wrote:

Triag wrote:

This discussion is as old as the game, it may have even started duringthe first beta though back then bards were a bit different.Even with all these new uber effects on items and the increasing versatilityof other classes the problem dosn't lie in a bard's utility, as they are still mandatory during raids.It's a matter of dull gameplay. There is no tricks to the class, no timing the attacks , no holding back burst damage,no curing / healing, no power transfers, no AEs !!!!!!!!, a nerfed charm , a nerfed mez , no real control skills( see how often the bow stifle works on yellow mobs, you know the mobs on whom you could need it )As a bard, no matter what the situation is, you1 : debuff2 : spam your attacks3 : sometimes you get to mez on a troub or rez with a dirgeAnd unlike other scouts, there is no "rythm" to bard attacks. Which is truely a shame. Of course some spell orders allow better dps output but as long as yourusing any spell that's up and using a Jester's Cap macro you are almost playing the troub to it's full potential.And for those asking for a bone, there has allready been several bones tossed.PotM, selfbuff , adapted crafted gear , more long delay weapons. Yet i still feel something is missing when compared to my other toons.

in response - other scouts offer zip, nadda, not a single group buff whatsoever to the group that is the slight bit beneficial.   /cheer for pathfinding perhaps?   2 scouts offer hate transfer, but then again that is only one person buff(granted helpful, IMO not nearly as beneficial as 35% groupwide deaggro), and one scout offers poison buff, which again is also one person.  whereas bards buff all 5 other group members with 5 different buffs that require concentration as well as POTM/jesters.

And i closed my parse after the raid >.<

My lord you're dense. The complaint isn't what we bring to the group, but how we bring it. PotM and jesters are a sprinkle of something good to the class. Not just because they're two of the best skills in the game, but because as a troub you actually have to be there to use them! And you have to be relatively not [Removed for Content] when it comes to when to cast them. Which brings us to the other complaint. I'd be hard pressed to find an easier class to do your job with. Unless you're completely dense you can play the class to the level that people will want you in the group. Even someone like you who seemingly got an epiphany last week that they should debuff mental before using their mental attacks can play the class well.I want to play a support class. Not play a a crappy DPS class with buffs I already had on since last time I logged. A good game is based on the meaningful decisions you have to make in game. When it comes to the troub, most of those decisions, some barely meaningful, are before I engage combat.

[RanmaBoyType]

"My lord you're dense. The complaint isn't what we bring to the group, but how we bring it. PotM and jesters are a sprinkle of something good to the class. Not just because they're two of the best skills in the game, but because as a troub you actually have to be there to use them! And you have to be relatively not [I cannot control my vocabulary] when it comes to when to cast them. Which brings us to the other complaint. I'd be hard pressed to find an easier class to do your job with. Unless you're completely dense you can play the class to the level that people will want you in the group. Even someone like you who seemingly got an epiphany last week that they should debuff mental before using their mental attacks can play the class well.I want to play a support class. Not play a a crappy DPS class with buffs I already had on since last time I logged. A good game is based on the meaningful decisions you have to make in game. When it comes to the troub, most of those decisions, some barely meaningful, are before I engage combat."

does your epee grow everytime you make a personal attack at me?  Cause that is awesome.  You must be a truly and gifted troubador to have nothing better to do than come to these forums and flame other troubs who actually enjoy the class.  Take your meaningless drovel elsewhere.   If you actually read the entire post that snippet came from you would have known I was attempting to HELP a fellow troub out, however all your post do are complain and try to force people away from the class.

i have said it before, if you dislike the class so much there are 23 other classes you can play.  Do it and quit your whining here. 

[Jeger_Wulf]

> If a person finds troub gameplay boring (usually because they want to > do assassin damage and see our buffs strengthened to boot), then they > should play another class, because I think a good many of us find that > this boredom is highly exaggerated, more a result of PERSONAL likes/dislikes > regarding gameplay, and less an actual problem with the class.

I could agree with you, but troubadour population is low. Personally, I HAVE gone off to play another class and am much happier. If there were enough troubs in the world, I would chalk it up to "just not being my play style." With a shortage of troubs, though, I am back here trying to "fix" the class.

> i have said it before, if you dislike the class so much there are 23 other classes > you can play.  Do it and quit your whining here. 

Whining about whining is worse IMO.

A discussion about the problems of the troubadour class isn't necessarily whining anyway.

[Menaelin]

Jeger_Wulf wrote:

I could agree with you, but troubadour population is low. Personally, I HAVE gone off to play another class and am much happier. If there were enough troubs in the world, I would chalk it up to "just not being my play style." With a shortage of troubs, though, I am back here trying to "fix" the class.

Just because you think the troubador is heavily flawed and the class happens to be one of the least used in the game doesn't mean that this is because of an objective, unarguable flaw in the class.

[Jeger_Wulf]

> Just because you think the troubador is heavily flawed and the class > happens to be one of the least used in the game doesn't mean that > this is because of an objective, unarguable flaw in the class.

For the record, I never said the troub was heavily flawed. I also would never dream that any subject would be unarguable on the internet. If I said "Black is Black," I am sure someone could find an argument. 

The objective fact is that troubs are one of the least-played classes. As an illusionist, I'd like to see this change, because I want more of them in my groups.  As such, a discussion of possible flaws in the troubadour class has merit to me. If you can't stand discussing possible flaws in the troubadour class, perhaps you should steer clear of threads that are titled: "Are troubs really that bad?"