Place Holders

[Gladiia]

Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Mudflation is another part of the problem, I rarely do a HQ for the actual item at the end, it's normally for the guild status.Most HQ items are no longer that legendary compared with treasured and crafted alternatives, it's a situation that makes the timesinks hurt even more, since your basically waiting for a few thousand status points and an item for your house wall.

QFE

I used to not mind the timesinks for some of these HQs as much as I do now.  But now the rewards are crap compared to so many other rewards, as is the status compared to writs.  If the rewards were back in line, I bet less people would mind the wait - of course the ones that do would probably yell louder because now they have to "sit and do nothing" (why, I don't know, I never stood around doing nothing waiting for a spawn) so they can get a good reward.

[Vonotar]

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

It's not 'lazy programming'. it's that you don't want to actually play the game for any length of time beyond 2 minutes to get anything. and people like you.No, the issue is having to wait multiple hours for a spawn, but if real life intervenes you have to start the wait all over again when you next log in.  At least killing x number of placeholders to spawn a name would be saveable.they tried the 'harvest' method. people [I cannot control my vocabulary] that they had to 'waste time' doing it. it was part of the Dwarven boots quest, and used to be 100 wood/metal. even when they reduced it to ten, people complianed because heavens forbid they work on a skill and not killing everything in sight. that might take some time.DWB is a very popular quest, and the reduction was done years ago when the game was rethought to remove a lot of the 'hardcore' aspects that were causing EQ2 to hemmorrage players.  These people are only starting to return now.Harder to kill? then you get every soloist [I cannot control my vocabulary] because they actually have to talk or play with someone else to do a quest. they've done that one too. what happens is exactly like what your doing. people wait until the quest is 30 levels or more below them to even think about it.I agree, making mobs harder isn't a solution, I understand that there has to be some timesink, it's the way that it is currently implemented that is wrong, you can currently progress in 5 minutes or 5 hours, there is no balance in this.  Worst of all, you can camp for hours, not get the spawn and have to log off for RL issues, only to find (later) that the mob spawned 10 minutes after you left... is this REALLY the level of fustration we expect players to contend with?solve a puzzle? they've tried that too. they've built instances around that idea. and guess what, no one uses them. when was the last time you saw someone wanting to group for the court of innovation? or meldrath's mines? those zones are built around puzzles, and no one touches them.Ummmm daily?, don't know what server you are playing on, but I see groups forming for CoI and MoM all the time.   So i'll call hogwash on your statement there.So your left with three options. make the mob spawn when the quest giver gets there, make it have a placeholder, or put it on a timer with nothign there when it's not up. which one of those is going to not [Removed for Content] off the biggest portion of the playerbase. if you use the idea that there's a timer, and the creature is simply not up, then you have people [I cannot control my vocabulary] because of KSing and mob stealing due to the fact that no one will do much more than time it and wait for it to spawn and then rush it as fast as they can. this was the method used in EQ1, and why there was that oh so dreaded 'camping' that everyone seems to hate.See my earlier post, named would only spawn when you approach the spawn point after killing x number of placeholders as part of the quest, spawn would immediately agro you to avoid somebody simply spawning names repeatedly for somebody else to kill (although quest spawns really shouldn't have loot on them anyway)if the mob spawns when the quest giver gets there, then there's no time investment. they can't keep people interested or playing if they can do every quest they need to do as soon as they get it and finish it in 10 minutes. it'll get old real fast.See aboveSo they opted for placeholders. that gives you something to do while you're there (killing the Ph and it's surrounding buddies) and it makes the quest take some time. the named mob can also be made to be duo/soloable without making it again, something that only takes you 10 seconds to do.Agreed, but the real issue is knowing what the placeholder is (sometimes this isn't obvious) and the fact that you have to kill a totally random number of placeholders, after killing the placeholder for the 10th time on a 15 minute respawn it gets old, and random is RANDOM, there is no "well it's bound to spawn within x number of kills", if random wants to spawn a placeholder 50 times in a row, it will.I get so tired of people who play for 6 hours a week wanting the game built to thier timeframe, and then being offended  or berating people about 'time does not = challenge' when people who play 20 hours a week don't want thier suggestions because they'd like to NOT be bored to tears in a month.Oh please, this isn't WoW, your not going to run out of stuff to do, it's just physically not possible.  The $15 a month of the person who wants to play 6 hours a week is as valid as the $15 of the person who plays 20 hours a week (and I go beyond 20 hours, so don't go thinking i'm in the former camp)Games like this should be made for gamers. not for people who play to 'relax for a hour before I go out to dinner and a movie'. your not a gamer. a gamer treats these games as a hobby. they are willing to invest a good bit of time into them. they actually do appreciate and feel a great sense of accomplishment for their digital avatar's triumphs. If they spent 20 hours getting Berrik, Sword of Thunder, they are [I cannot control my vocabulary] proud of it. and I'll wager those same players still have that sword at level 80 in their bank vault, because they feel an attachment to it. they remember fondly the effort they put into it.Gamers like progression, spending four hours online and being no further forward than when you first logged in is not progression.  You start wondering if you should have played something else for that four hours and then logged in nicely in time for the spawn (hindsight is a lovely thing)the players that a game like this should cater to are the ones that could tell you the first time they saw a Nightblood, and what happened when they did. The ones that actually had a sense of nervousness the first time they ventured in the Obelisk of Blight. The ones that were genuinely impressed with being in the presence of Lord Nagafen.  It should not cater to the people who think of Nagafen as just a quest npc, or the ones that didn't even bat an eyelash when they saw a nightblood becuase as far as they were concerned it was just a mob to kill. it shouldn't cater to the people that didn't like the idea that you actually had to look for the shrines for druzaic language, or that you actually had to earn the trust of a ship captain and crew before they were going to haul you through dangerous waters.Funny, I remember being in awe of Lord Nagafen, and having to find out stuff for myself, i've been playing this game for three years solid now.and why did they not like that? becuase they are only going to play for 45 minutes and don't want to spend 20 of them earning the right to go to a new zone, even if you only have to do it once ever.

Lets at least all agree that placeholders are a necessary evil, the real problem is the amount of camping time, and the fact that this cannot be 'stored up' in anyway.  If your unlucky (either because of RL interruptions or just a sucky RND) it can take hours or days to spawn a name you need this is the issue that really needs addressing, and replacing the random spawn, for a guarenteed spawn after killing x number of placeholders (the x being a fixed number for that quest) would address the issue nicely.

[Alienor]

Cerissa@Runnyeye wrote:

I've been frustrated by camping mobs as much as the next person. I've whined about my troubles with the mature antelope leather in TS and spawning Captain Ogof and Raeg in Commonlands (back in the days when that HQ was hard). However, when it got to the point of real frustration, I've logged off or gone to another area in order to come back to the quest.

Yeah, I did the same For the Lightbringer HQ it took me 2 years and the final "simplify LU" to finish that darn thing. Needless to tell, that I have outgrown the quest long long ago.

[azekah]

They could also put named in mini instances, and then just put restrictions on the access to those instances, ie have to be at certain point in quest, or do other stuff...and to Raimare:I've never seen so many generalizations in one post before...I'm amazed you are able to discern that much information about me from that brief statement I made...

[Gholdmoon]

I dont mind the Placeholders myself. I find myself looking at it as a gamble when or if i decide to give up and go to something else. That idea ugh if i leave now its going to spawn as soon as im halfway across zone or too far away to turn around and come back hits me alot.

 My issues with "camps" for named for quests is the fact YOU sit there and put in the time to make that named spawn and someone comes by and steals the mob from you spouting there are no camps live with it. You do get mad at that then people say its just a game. Seriously? That named wouldnt be up if i didnt put in the time to make it be up and some disrespectful player who doesnt want to wait their turn and put in their time for the mob takes it. I wish something can be put in place to where this cant happen since SoE cant make players behave appropriately to the other real people playing this "game".

The creator was another frustrating spawn. It did take up to 3 sometimes 4 hours to get him to spawn, only to have something happen the group wipes and they are shipped off next to a tower in TS to run back and TRY to get the creator before another group goes in and says hey my lucky day! Or the creator spawns and while your clearing the other mobs in the area as to not wipe pulling creator another group comes in disregards your group and your left standing there watching someone else kill the named you spawned with your time. Ive camped creator for 8hrs because of these two issues before. =/

I've seen my share of frustrating things with camps and put up with it. Its almost better to do quests when the pack has moved on and its not a popular spot anymore. More of a chance to get the named you need without it being taken from you. Many times that opportunity comes too late for the quest to mean anything when its done or its completed on an alt you wish you had that glory for on your main.

That idea to have the named spawn as you approach would work in some places, since you have to kill your way to the mob or clear the area around the mob to kill it in relatively safe area. I know they do it for AQs. Shadowdash and Stompgutt are both spawns as you approach their spawn points.  That works out well and it eases the frustation to finish an armor quest. I dont know if this would be fantastic idea for say bloodtalon since hes for an HQ and in an easy spot to reach. But i can see this idea working for other frustrations in the game.  If someone did steal your mob, it wouldnt be such a punch to the gut due to you can trigger it again in 10-15mins instead of having to do that camp again where it could take another 3hrs maybe less (but who knows?) before you get the named again.

[phoenixshard]

Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:Lets at least all agree that placeholders are a necessary evil, the real problem is the amount of camping time, and the fact that this cannot be 'stored up' in anyway.  If your unlucky (either because of RL interruptions or just a sucky RND) it can take hours or days to spawn a name you need this is the issue that really needs addressing, and replacing the random spawn, for a guarenteed spawn after killing x number of placeholders (the x being a fixed number for that quest) would address the issue nicely.

I would strongly disagree that the PH's are a necessary evil.  I'd much prefer something like the Bone Bladed Claymore's line of quest myself.  The named's you need spawn when you come close to their area, plus the need to kill 1000 sentient beings.  I can handle that a lot more than I can say in TS killing the majestic griffons for sometimes hours on end waiting for Bloodtalon to spawn for the Dwarven Boots.  I don't mind killing a lot of mobs, that keeps me moving and doing something, not sitting on my caboose waiting for the next majestic griffon to spawn so I can kill it and then hope that BT spawns so I can advance the quest.  I wouldn't even mind something saying killing x number of mobs to bring out the named like someone else said, but the use of PH's promotes frustration in me.

[wwd2]

Rahatmattata wrote:

wwd2 wrote:

Okay, don't take my whinning about PHs to mean I want the game turned into digital solitaire.  Don't condescend to me about "having to figure something out" and then acknowledge those "original players" genius.  Your story of the Lightbringer Quest is a classic example.   How did you "figure out" the PHs???

I never did figure out the ph for rama'nai. I simply killed every lion in the area until he popped.

How did you know that would work?  And the Orcs?  You did the same?  Can you imagine how disrupting it would be for my 70+ to be doing this?

I didn't learn about HQs until my main was in her sixties.  I think it was unfair to have her hanging out, farming PHs in such a lowbie area just to get the SP for her guild.  When I did the quest with alts, most of the mobs had greyed by the time they had gotten half the mobs.  I remember helping countless others just to get the key, which involved more PHs...I highly doubt any lowbies would care if you were killing lions at the druid ring. If they did or if you're that concerned about it, you could invite them to group or just let them kill the lions for you.

Sure, what if they don't want to group?  What if they are there for another reason?  What if they just needed shaman and here iam killing EVERYTHING because I don't even know what the PHs are?

 Are you trying to convince me how that is a well-designed quest?  Then why did the Devs change the "Wounded Scout" part of it?

I do think it was a well designed quest, but no I'm not trying to convince you. If you are talking about the bsv access quest, I think they changed that because people were crying about having to do access quests cuz they were too hard and took too much time so SOE just removed almost all of them.

My problem with place holders is not just named and HQs though.  The problem is extends to common mobs.  The PH for "rabid badgers" is "venomous geckos."  So, get a quest to kill 20 geckos and I can't find a one.  I run from one end ot the zone to the other, use trackers, check maps ad naseum: no geckos.  Now, if I had spent that time killing all those badgers...  If I had even known.  NOTE: this a generic example!

I don't know what zone you are talking about, but trash mobs (like insects and small common animals) often share the same spawn.

Just a generic example.  Sharing the same spawn is place holding, neh?

I personally don't expect a game to be non-stop fun and excitement. I expect to have some amount of challenge, frustration, and obstacles in a good game. Sure spanking a x4 named on the first pull is fun. But working on that same mob for several hours with a guild of friends and finally overcoming all odds and killing it, leads to enormous satisfaction, yelling and hooting and cheering in vent, a closer "tightness" with your guildies, and something to put on your website main page to display your proud accomplishment.

Camping named is the same thing. If the mob I need is up, then wewt for me. If I have to kill ph for a day camping that mob, the more frustrated I get the sweeter the victory is. If it's so frustrating/boring I can't make myself finish, I come back later and try again or move on and don't cry about it.

I've always said a good game will [Removed for Content] me off. This has been true with many games aside from eq2... ffxi, unreal tournament, doom, mario bro 1, mortal kombat and street fighter... etc... MMOs are unique in that they need time sinks to retain players. Camping mobs and clearing ph is one of those ways, and personally I don't mind it, and hope SOE keeps the ph mechanic in game.

Um, I am glad you like this mechanic.  I play this game for recreation, as an alternative to TV that I can do with friends for FUN, not for spiritual fullfilment.

Okay, gave a generic example.  Here's one I deal with all the time: Blacktalon Conscripts.  I need to kill 12 of them for a writ, which even, surprisingly enough, specifies the island they are on!  I go to that island and run all over it and find 2 (if any)...  huh.  Then when those two respawn, they came back as Adherents, okay...  Sure, if I paid attention and knew my writs, I would have to kill them too.  But the writ is actually asking me to kill EVERYTHING in that area for an hour or so.  In the process I will kill some Conscripts...

So, I guess my gripe is not so much PHs, but the way quests are written.  Maybe I am spoiled by LotRO, where READING the Quest Dialogue actually helps.  Just statements like "You may need to kill such-and-such to get so-and-so out of hiding" make a difference. 

I also like the idea of spawn cycles.  I think I have heard of them referred to as "Ring Events".  Kill this group of mobs and these mobs WILL spawn to replace them.  Kill them and this named WILL spawn.  Taking the random out of the respawn cylce would make sense for a lot of these quests, even if the fixed value was 1,000 for some of the "Epic" quests.  Encounter Triggers like performing a specific task are pretty neat mechanic as well.

I am also glad there are so many who have the leisure time for all that camping.  I am semi-retired and can't do that.  I understand the arguement against "instant gratification" but not sure how much it should apply here.

[Vonotar]

phoenixshard wrote:

Banedon@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:Lets at least all agree that placeholders are a necessary evil, the real problem is the amount of camping time, and the fact that this cannot be 'stored up' in anyway.  If your unlucky (either because of RL interruptions or just a sucky RND) it can take hours or days to spawn a name you need this is the issue that really needs addressing, and replacing the random spawn, for a guarenteed spawn after killing x number of placeholders (the x being a fixed number for that quest) would address the issue nicely.

I would strongly disagree that the PH's are a necessary evil.  I'd much prefer something like the Bone Bladed Claymore's line of quest myself.  The named's you need spawn when you come close to their area, plus the need to kill 1000 sentient beings.  I can handle that a lot more than I can say in TS killing the majestic griffons for sometimes hours on end waiting for Bloodtalon to spawn for the Dwarven Boots.  I don't mind killing a lot of mobs, that keeps me moving and doing something, not sitting on my caboose waiting for the next majestic griffon to spawn so I can kill it and then hope that BT spawns so I can advance the quest.  I wouldn't even mind something saying killing x number of mobs to bring out the named like someone else said, but the use of PH's promotes frustration in me.

Is that really so different, BBC has names that spawn on approach and requires killing a large number of creatures, whereas I suggest that in cases like the Stein HQ, you would kill (e.g) 20 bouncer placeholders (on a faster spawn rate, like ever 2-3 minutes) before the named would spawn automatically.   That's around an hours worth of work just to spawn one of the named (out of four) required, hardly speedy but at least people can log in for 30 minutes, kill a few placeholders, and come back later for the rest.

[liveja]

LionWilled wrote:

So basically: "I want it now!"

No, it's basically, "I want to have fun PLAYING A GAME, not banging my head against a wall grinding place-holders simply because developers can't be bothered to come up with more interestingly scripted encounters."

Place-holders, by themselves, are bad game design.

[Allisia]

There are writs from Neriak that have you kill the various Mist Grinnin along the river in Nektulos Forest. The problem is when you get there, they often are not up. They share a spawn table with some of the other mobs in the area, river stones and I believe some bats. So if you're not familiar with the area you can go to where they should be and not find a single grinnin in sight. Some of the Gigglegibber's Frostfell quests also required killing grinnin so that has made it worse. To my knowledge, few if any quests have you kill the other creatures that often occupy the grinnins' spawn points. So the grinnin become an endangered species until someone knows to kill all the mobs in the area to get the grinnin spawning again. It's a lot like cherry picking nodes in the old world zones. This is really annoying, especially if you're not familiar enough with the area to know where the mobs should be.As for quest place holders, I loathe them with an intense passion. Back before DoF my wife and I spent 36 hours camping the Creator in Varsoon for the Restoring Ghoulbane HQ. I never "grind mobs" for XP, I hate it. It bores me to tears. So having to essentially "grind" the place holder until I get lucky is the one aspect of EQ2 that I hate more than anything else. Place holders seem like they should be the punch line of a Nodwick comic, not a stumbling block in a quest of legendary proportions. It would be like the Fellowship of the Ring invading Barad-Dur, getting to the top, and finding a bunch of no name peons keeping Sauron's throne warm: The_Mouth_of_Sauron says "I'm terribly sorry, but the master is having his finger fitted for a new ring. I have no idea when he'll be back, but until he does, why don't you make yourself at home killing scores of nameless orcs and ogres? Maybe you'll get lucky and he'll return before you have to give up and return to Gondor."Place holders inhibit my sense of accomplishment, not increase it. To me it demeans the questing process and makes it seem more like a trip to the DMV than an epic accomplishment.

[SniperKitty]

Placeholders are a ridiculous and overused ancient and lazy mechanic that has overstayed its welcome, as if it ever had one.

[keLston]

Rainmare@Oasis wrote:

It's not 'lazy programming'. it's that you don't want to actually play the game for any length of time beyond 2 minutes to get anything. and people like you. And why is that bad? Are you really "playing" the game sitting there for 15 minutes alt tabbed waiting for the next PH to pop? I don't know about you but that's not playing the game. That's catching up on websurfing or watching TV. Maybe you don't alt tab. Sitting there staring at rendered earth waiting for the next PH to pop also doesn't qualify as playing. You might as well be afk. And AFK farming the lottery bot is apparently against the rules so AFK-playing is against the rules so technically waiting there is not playing the game. they tried the 'harvest' method. people [I cannot control my vocabulary] that they had to 'waste time' doing it. it was part of the Dwarven boots quest, and used to be 100 wood/metal. even when they reduced it to ten, people complianed because heavens forbid they work on a skill and not killing everything in sight. that might take some time. Because the harvest method is still lazy programming. Look, we can't come up with a mechanic or other quests so in the guise of a quest, we're going to just make you kill 2000 mobs instead of 20 so you are grinding but technically you're "questing" to level. Same way with using harvesting as the mechanic to further a quest. You know what, we can't come up with a different or better next step that is challenging so your challenge is to run around gathering 9000 stumps. It really has nothing to do with the quest, I just want a lot of firewood despite there not being a place for me to start a fire. Just do it. Harder to kill? then you get every soloist [I cannot control my vocabulary] because they actually have to talk or play with someone else to do a quest. they've done that one too. what happens is exactly like what your doing. people wait until the quest is 30 levels or more below them to even think about it. So what? At least dismissing the soloers is a viable defense because in the end, it's a multiplayer game. So why not make it harder to kill? Who cares if people wait 30 levels to do a quest? Is that somehow wrong? Are you now making new rules on how people should properly play the game? If I want to do grey quests, should I now be banned because you don't view it as challenging? People doing quests 30 levels later are still doing it legitimately. The "play fair" rule is only applied to evil overlords in movies that discard their weapons to "even" the playing field when fighting the last fight with the protagonist. We all know what happens to those evil overlords. Sometimes force lightninged to death while throwing their bosses down bottomless pits. One of the most recognizable Indiana Jones scenes was when he shot the swordsman after the guy did some fancy flailing with a scimitar. No one questioned Jones' heroism or place as a proper protagonist. I want to kill gnolls half my level. Why shouldn't I? Because it's unfair to the gnolls? solve a puzzle? they've tried that too. they've built instances around that idea. and guess what, no one uses them. when was the last time you saw someone wanting to group for the court of innovation? or meldrath's mines? those zones are built around puzzles, and no one touches them. Everyday? Nagafen, a PvP server seems to have groups going to those places. Maybe it's just your server?

Why do you consider the only people that could be called "gamers" are people who play 9 hours a day? Those are addicts. Are gamers not allowed to have jobs? Are they not allowed to go to school? Raise a family?Why shouldn't a game be built around the other gamers? The ones that do things other than play games. The ones that pay for their own accounts. Should they be dismissed? After all, many of these "fake" gamers grew up with EverQuest 1. It's on our shoulders that EQ2 was made a reality. I played EQ1 from release, I did the 72 hour camps because I skipped a few days of junior high school. Does that make me more of a gamer than you? No, of course not. That makes me a truant that should have been going to class.Placeholders are there because they were too lazy to come up with a better mechanic. There are better mechanics out there that are challenging and more rewarding that sitting around for long periods of time doing nothing. I've heard about the solo tests you could do in raid dungeons to skip portions of the instance. Why couldn't that be one of the mechanics for a hard quest? Why not have quests that are inside instances Splitpaw style that scale with your level but also scale with your class? Why not design encounters that require multiple people by putting in portions of the encounter that require skills that only certain classes have? Why not have an encounter that has you disarm timed traps while the rest of the group fights so scouts could do something besides spamming 111111111111? Why not have a fight where the only way you could tank it was to use an NPC to tank it and have your healers healing the NPC in addition to healing the group and having to be skilled enough to time the NPC's taunt to watch your own aggro? Why not have more of Splitpaw's Alone in the Dark questline that splits up your raid groups to tackle a different portion of the zone just to get to the encounter? Those are challenging, more so than farming a placeholder. And you know what? You'd actually be playing instead of fighting for 20 seconds and then alt tabbing for 14min 40 seconds.As for the "fun" chats that happen while camping a mob, what? You can't talk while not camping a mob? Is there some unwritten rule some place that says that "fun" group chats can only start off with one guy going, "OMG ENOUGH PLACEHOLDERS PLZ! FTLOG GIVE US THE MOB"? You can socialize while doing things besides camping a placeholder. Why not start a group discussion by praising the tank or healers out of the blue? Or laughing at the scout that got himself killed by a mob that sees stealth?EDIT: Fixed spacing. Cleaned up some questionable statements :p