Anyone agree whoever invited place holders should be slapped? Trying to do quests or HQ's and waiting over a hour and fifteen minutes so far to kill a name isn't my idea of fun. Whats the point of having these stupid things? If its for farmers just decrease the rate at which chests drop. Just keep names up so people trying to get a dang quest/HQ done can do so.

<cite>IceyGregorio wrote:</cite><blockquote>Anyone agree whoever invited place holders should be slapped? Trying to do quests or HQ's and <b>waiting over a hour and fifteen minutes</b> so far to kill a name isn't my idea of fun. Whats the point of having these stupid things? If its for farmers just decrease the rate at which chests drop. Just keep names up so people trying to get a dang quest/HQ done can do so.</blockquote><p>I hate to sound unsympathetic but :rolin  place holders may have started earlier than eq1 but they were a major part of quests there my worst was 36 hours eq2 with at least some of the place holders dropping the quest items but no chest seems pretty good by comparison. </p><p>You may have been unlucky with spawns  fortunatley i havent had a wait of more than 30 minutes for any thing i can remember in eq2 except for the time i was killing the wrong mob and the one i was up was already spawned else where in the zone. </p>

It took me about 4.5 hours camping the Expedition people for the Dwarven Ringmail HQ.Placeholders is a rather stupid mechanic that really needs to be done away with. I realize MMOs are subscription based and require time sinks to force people to play a little longer to pay the next month, but there are such things as fun timesinks.And you can rofl all you want, i've done the 72 hour campfests of Quillmane back in EQ1, so i've done the super hardcore placeholder/camping bs. It's stuff like that that made people write ShowEQ in the first place. WoW has a 10 million player subscriber base that has been keeping steady for 3 years without the placeholder mechanic, pretty sure other MMOs can do just fine without it.Maybe the masochistic hardcore purists that blur tedium and challenging are pro-placeholders but you can make something time consuming and challenging without it being pointlessly mindnumbing.

<cite>greenmantle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> <p>i havent had a wait of more than 30 minutes</p></blockquote>30 minutes after 30 minutes adds up, lol.

<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote>It took me about 4.5 hours camping the Expedition people for the Dwarven Ringmail HQ.</blockquote>Perhaps the problem isnt so much place holders as how random the required spawn is i helped a few friends only a couple of days ago with the ring mail, found two of the orcs up wiped every camp got the third to pop about 10 minutes later got the last guy. It would  p*** me off as well if i spent 4 hours doing what most do in a few minutes. Perhaps ok place holders but a better chance of the required mob spawning or a limit on the number of times the holder spawns to prevent some one having the bad luck to get the wrong rng value 20 times in a row.

Explain why placeholders are a necessary mechanic in the first place.The main reason is farming in the open instances. Why not address that rather than implement a widespread mechanic to counter that one specific thing? Make a /recent list for PvE just like it does in PvP so you can't farm the same guy 27 times in an hour for fableds. Or make a mechanic where you can't kill that guy again unless another group did it between your kills so you couldn't monopolize a boss.Why not do that than force placeholders on everything?PHs are a dated mechanic that goes back to text based games when the scripting was so limited that you couldn't come up with better ways to do it. That's not the case now.

Even right now named quest mobs tend not to drop chests. Make this true for all named involved in quests. Or make them triggered spawns who pop up when someone is on the quest (also already in game). There are thousands of easy ways

Seems people are in a hurry to finish off quests and alike. Not me. If I don't get mob I need today, I will get it tomorrow... or the day after that. And playholders give XP and drops as well, so I am not complaining.Femke.

<cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seems people are in a hurry to finish off quests and alike. Not me. If I don't get mob I need today, I will get it tomorrow... or the day after that. And playholders give XP and drops as well, so I am not complaining.Femke.</blockquote>A nice sentiment, but being on a PvP server, I would rather not accept the fact that my character will be stuck in GFay for the next 4 days just for one quest mob. Essentially, I would be unable to play that character without either repeatedly making the trip all the way back to GFay to finish one quest by that playstyle. I can't exactly just hop on over to Kelethin and do other quests while i'm in the neighborhood.So yes, I am in a bit of a hurry to finish. I apologize for being unwilling to spend the next few days of my time in one spot, I guess you don't have that many other things you'd rather be doing. I'm not that bored.

<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seems people are in a hurry to finish off quests and alike. Not me. If I don't get mob I need today, I will get it tomorrow... or the day after that. And playholders give XP and drops as well, so I am not complaining.Femke.</blockquote>A nice sentiment, but being on a PvP server, I would rather not accept the fact that my character will be stuck in GFay for the next 4 days just for one quest mob. Essentially, I would be unable to play that character without either repeatedly making the trip all the way back to GFay to finish one quest by that playstyle. I can't exactly just hop on over to Kelethin and do other quests while i'm in the neighborhood.So yes, I am in a bit of a hurry to finish.</blockquote>Was that not the "added risk" thingy I always hear as argument in PvP vs PvE arguments?Femke.

<cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seems people are in a hurry to finish off quests and alike. Not me. If I don't get mob I need today, I will get it tomorrow... or the day after that. And playholders give XP and drops as well, so I am not complaining.Femke.</blockquote>A nice sentiment, but being on a PvP server, I would rather not accept the fact that my character will be stuck in GFay for the next 4 days just for one quest mob. Essentially, I would be unable to play that character without either repeatedly making the trip all the way back to GFay to finish one quest by that playstyle. I can't exactly just hop on over to Kelethin and do other quests while i'm in the neighborhood.So yes, I am in a bit of a hurry to finish.</blockquote>Was that not the "added risk" thingy I always hear as argument in PvP vs PvE arguments?Femke.</blockquote>Really? There's a lot of risk sitting in one spot for 3 days? I wasn't aware that being unable to do anything else was "risky".

<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Really? There's a lot of risk sitting in one spot for 3 days? I wasn't aware that being unable to do anything else was "risky".</blockquote>Hope that the others on PvP servers that are after the same mob will think the same on " unable to do anything else"  as you <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Femke.

<cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Really? There's a lot of risk sitting in one spot for 3 days? I wasn't aware that being unable to do anything else was "risky".</blockquote>Hope that the others on PvP servers that are after the same mob will think the same on " unable to do anything else"  as you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />Femke.</blockquote>Yes. A level 30 sitting in a level 10 zone had so many people to fight... oh wait, you mean there's a PvP level range limit? I enjoy people who make comments about things they know little or nothing about.

<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Really? There's a lot of risk sitting in one spot for 3 days? I wasn't aware that being unable to do anything else was "risky".</blockquote>Hope that the others on PvP servers that are after the same mob will think the same on " unable to do anything else"  as you <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />Femke.</blockquote>Yes. A level 30 sitting in a level 10 zone had so many people to fight... oh wait, you mean there's a PvP level range limit? I enjoy people who make comments about things they know little or nothing about.</blockquote>Did I ever mention anything being related to range limits? Something you pulled in. Have fun with it.Femke.

This thread is quickly becoming a personal back-and-forth argument, which isn't going to help anyone trying to constructively discuss the subject at hand. Please keep the <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=176" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Forum Rules</a> in mind when posting and take any personal grievances to the Private Message system where they properly belong.Thank you.Morningside

Sorry. You are right, Morningside.Back to the subject. In my opinion place-holders add to the variety of the game. Sure, when it takes a real long time before the needed mob spawns it can become boring, but as far as I can remember those are more exception then common. And as said before, placeholders give xp and drops as well.Femke.

I love the placeholder mechanic. Some rare mobs are supposed to be... uhhh... rare... Some quests require you to kill rare mobs. If that rare mob auto-pops or is always up or is easy to spawn, then it's not really that rare now is it?

<cite>Femke wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Did I ever mention anything being related to range limits? Something you pulled in. Have fun with it.Femke.</blockquote>Feel free to provide a list of what other alternative activities you could have been suggesting on a PvP server in hostile territory filled with Grey cons. Really. Would love to know what they happen to be because I really don't believe you have any idea what the choices are in PvP especially when you mentioned the risk factor.<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I love the placeholder mechanic. Some rare mobs are supposed to be... uhhh... rare... Some quests require you to kill rare mobs. If that rare mob auto-pops or is always up or is easy to spawn, then it's not really that rare now is it?</blockquote>The placeholder mechanic would make sense if there weren't placeholders for everything regardless of whether or not it's stated as being rare. In this specific example, it was the Dwarven Ringmail HQ.Why'd I camp it for 4.5 hours? Because for me the CB Expedition Weaponsmith wouldn't spawn. I just got the Expedition Leader a trillion times in a row. Ok fine, maybe the weaponsmith is supposed to be rare. Wrong. It's completely random which one is rare from reading the commentary on the questline in various forums. For some people, the Leader never spawns. Nice. So a random mob is supposed to be rare with absolutely no consistency? How's that justify the placeholder mechanic from the somewhat RP standpoint of a rare mob being rare when the rare mob is common half the time but rare the other half?Or what about illogical placeholders? What's a placeholder for a graverobber? Anyone know? What would logically be the placeholder? Nothing. If there's no graverobber, it should be nothing. But instead, the placeholder for the Commonlands graverobber is apparently a Lost Soul, a ghost NPC. Wait, what? Even better is that the lost soul is a spawn independent of the graverobber because it has it's own unrelated questline. How does that even make sense?

<p>I love the placeholders.</p><p>It gives me a sense of accomplishment when i finally finish the quest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>If you cannot be bothered to camp the named do not do it but don't complain about it either.</p><p>They already make lots of things to easy. </p><p>I do not want an easy game, i want a game where killing or completing a quest still means something.</p>

<cite>keLston wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The placeholder mechanic would make sense if there weren't placeholders for everything regardless of whether or not it's stated as being rare. In this specific example, it was the Dwarven Ringmail HQ.Why'd I camp it for 4.5 hours? Because for me the CB Expedition Weaponsmith wouldn't spawn. I just got the Expedition Leader a trillion times in a row. Ok fine, maybe the weaponsmith is supposed to be rare. Wrong. It's completely random which one is rare from reading the commentary on the questline in various forums. For some people, the Leader never spawns. Nice. So a random mob is supposed to be rare with absolutely no consistency? How's that justify the placeholder mechanic from the somewhat RP standpoint of a rare mob being rare when the rare mob is common half the time but rare the other half?<i>Umm, sometimes you are lucky, sometimes unlucky, hence: random. Did you /feedback? If you think the mobs aren't spawning often enough, you should. Just because you encountered some mobs that you think are too hard to spawn doesn't mean the whole concept of plaecholders needs to vanish. Sometimes you kill a ph and there's a chance a named will spawn each time the next ph/named pops. Sometimes you kill a ph x amount of times and then the named pops. Sometimes you do a ring event, fight waves of mobs, and then the named pops. Sometimes the named automatically pops when you need it for a quest. Sometimes a named is always up and respawns almost immediately after death. It's variety.</i>Or what about illogical placeholders? What's a placeholder for a graverobber? Anyone know? What would logically be the placeholder? Nothing. If there's no graverobber, it should be nothing. But instead, the placeholder for the Commonlands graverobber is apparently a Lost Soul, a ghost NPC. Wait, what? Even better is that the lost soul is a spawn independent of the graverobber because it has it's own unrelated questline. How does that even make sense?<i>It makes perfect sense because the mobs are all in the same spot in a tiny little graveyard. Doesn't take a genious to figure out to clear the little area and wait for repops. Same thing with bees snakes hawks beetles trash all sharing the same placeholders. If you think it sucks /feedback. Maybe a dev will agree with you (but I doubt it).</i></blockquote>

<p>Placeholders are just stupid.- If they really need a time sink then make the named spawn less often.- If they want to keep peoples from farming quest mobs. Make them drop nothing.- If the want the game to be harder make the quest mob tougher.</p><p>Placeholders do not add any difficulty to the game it is just a way to let quests take longer time.</p>

<cite>Faneth@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I do not want an easy game, i want a game where killing or completing a quest still means something.</p></blockquote>Me neither, but camping placeholders means nothing to me. This is neither interesting nor challening nor useful. In the end I stay clear of these quests. What do I have accomplished when finishing the quest when I have already outleveled the quest in the time I camped the required mobs?

I agree that they should take PH's out on some mobs. If it's a rare mob then fine leave a place holder there. But on most quest mobs if SoE wants it to take some time just give the named mob a longer spawn. Instead of this mob spawns every 10 minutes and you might get lucky and the named pops the next time or unlucky and it doesn't spawn for 2 hours. Give the named something like a 1 hour spawn time but it will be up each time after it's killed and its timer is up. Atleast that way I could go and do something else for an hour and come back and get it when it's up instead of sitting in one spot bored out of my skull with killing trash mobs over and over.

<p>The notion that PH's should be removed from the game is, in my opinion, one that, if acted upon, would result in an avalanche of protests from those who are concerned that the game is being 'dumbed-down' too much. And I would agree with the protesters on this one.</p><p>Sometimes placeholders are frustrating for me to contend with. But I'd rather be frustrated <i>sometimes</i> than to become bored to tears with questing/adventuring in general because all of the named spawns are perpetually up. I can see this becoming a big problem. </p>

Personally, the notion of placeholders for QUEST mobs should be removed from the game. A very nice implementation of what I am about to suggest exist in City of Mist in the Kunzar Jungle in Rok - it involves a mob called "The Black Reaver".There is a quest which involves killing a black reaver for highly sought after parts. In the City of Mist there are 2 variations of this mob. One is a place holder called "a black reaver" and the other is a named called "The Black Reaver". The respawn is only a few minutes on this mob and killing either will update your quest. Obviously the loot rewards are better on the named though.I found this implementation to be highly refreshing, especially in that area as the mobs respawn quickly and are all 77^^^+As far as time sinks - the necessity for them in subscription based games in understandable to a point when games are new. As games mature time sinks should systematically be removed. Consider the amount of total content that exists within the game today versus 3 years ago. At this point it would take a single player years to accomplish it all but wait...new content is being added almost monthly. I think we are safe in saying that removing some of the time sinks would increase the fun which could serve only to help the subscribers entertainment value at this point - happy customers stay longer...just a thought...

<cite>Drash wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The notion that PH's should be removed from the game is, in my opinion, one that, if acted upon, would result in an avalanche of protests from those who are concerned that the game is being 'dumbed-down' too much. And I would agree with the protesters on this one.</p><p>Sometimes placeholders are frustrating for me to contend with. But I'd rather be frustrated <i>sometimes</i> than to become bored to tears with questing/adventuring in general because all of the named spawns are perpetually up. I can see this becoming a big problem. </p></blockquote>If it was only 3 times max that I had to wait before the named part, I could agree with that.  But sometimes sitting for hours on end (Bloodtalon springs immediately to mind on that one) is not exactly my idea of a good time, and I get bored to tears over that one.  I'm sure there are a lot of people in that boat too.  That's not asking for instant gratification, and its not dumbing the game down at all.  Personally I don't see as how eliminating the PH's and have the named spawn if someone needs the quest pops when they come within the area is dumbing down anything.  Sitting there waiting for a named needed for a quest doesn't add anything to the game except you sitting there doing nothing.

<cite>phoenixshard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drash wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The notion that PH's should be removed from the game is, in my opinion, one that, if acted upon, would result in an avalanche of protests from those who are concerned that the game is being 'dumbed-down' too much. And I would agree with the protesters on this one.</p><p>Sometimes placeholders are frustrating for me to contend with. But I'd rather be frustrated <i>sometimes</i> than to become bored to tears with questing/adventuring in general because all of the named spawns are perpetually up. I can see this becoming a big problem. </p></blockquote>If it was only 3 times max that I had to wait before the named part, I could agree with that.  But sometimes sitting for hours on end (Bloodtalon springs immediately to mind on that one) is not exactly my idea of a good time, and I get bored to tears over that one.  I'm sure there are a lot of people in that boat too.  That's not asking for instant gratification, and its not dumbing the game down at all.  Personally I don't see as how eliminating the PH's and have the named spawn if someone needs the quest pops when they come within the area is dumbing down anything.  Sitting there waiting for a named needed for a quest doesn't add anything to the game except you sitting there doing nothing.</blockquote><p>I think BT is a good example of one of the quest mobs that should have been rare.  Of course, those boots used to be pretty darn nice.  At this point I think rather than remove placeholders with rare nameds, they should increase the value of the reward that is earned for completing the quest that requires it.  I am not a huge fan of big time sinks, but I'll take em from time to time.  Especially when it means my patience will pay off with a reward that is better than the average reward.</p><p>The cool thing about that is it is something not everyone will do.  Which means, in the event of a good quest reward, that people are really being rewarded for it.  However, I absolutely don't think that this concept should be removed.  It should not be the norm by any means, but there are ways to use it to entice people to stick around longer.  Those that want nothing to do with placeholders can do something else - I mean there are certainly more than enough quests to go around more than a couple of times.</p>

Yeah, placeholders really are stupid.  I spent 8 hours camping Defiled Lord Byron for the sword of thunder.  Honestly, what's the point of this?

They have gone out of their way to make placeholders spawn the named after 3-4 kills. It used to take hours.

<p>Yeah, I hate them too.  Working on HQs to help my guild and helping newbies out, these things really take the fun out.  Yeah, I know, HQs are supposed to be hard, but farming low-level areas is just not fun for me or the other players there.  The worst was a griefer killing  a timed respawn in Varsoons after I had been killing his place holders for hours.  I also had a hard time staying out of people's way way when hunting the named in Cazic Thule.  And I spent days slaughtering orcs, but trying not to kill the named I no longer needed, in Faydark...</p><p> My other gripe about place holders is that many quests don't tell who they are.  They tell you to kill so-and-so and when you look for them, they aren't around around.  Too many times I have had to go to spoiler sites to find out place-holder names.  Some of these quests are silly enough to figure out without place holders.  </p><p>And yet another gripe is that they are a huge obstacle to overcome for casual gamers.  I usually only play for a couple hours at a time, a few times a week.  Farming place holders is not the way I want to spend my time.  Too many quests involve them for me to accept the bland "just don't do those" advice.  I have too many quests that are greying out because they involve mobs that I can't find...</p>