Priests losing parry....(and more thoughts)

[Oghi]

I, too, wonder if SOE has bitten off more than *we* can chew here.  If the issue is tanks becoming unhittable, why remove parry from mages and priests?  How is making it even *more* difficult for enchanters to solo necessary to balance guardians in high-end raid encounters?

[Rock]

"Blackguard wrote:
Hopefully peppering this information all around the forums will help be clear about our intentions with the combat changes:

The goal is to keep solo and small group play very similar to the way it is now. That is, not overly challenging and at the same time, not at all trivial. Groups and raids taking on powerful encounters should meet a greater challenge. Again, they won't be so challenging that you can't take them on, but we don't want powerful encounters to be trivialized as they sometimes can be now."

 

 

It appears that SOE intends to have 2 types of encounters. Mobs that can only be handled by very skilled players with uber gear and the vast unwashed masses killing unlimited solo mobs dropping vast amounts of body parts which can be sold for a few silver. Ever hear of a happy medium?

[Tanyla]

Just a reminder on parry ....  ANY one can parry that has a sword, axe, dagger.  A person yeilding a 2 by 4 can parry, there is NO reasonable reason to remove the ability from priest/mages and by doing so will in no way balance out why tanks become invulnerable.

 

Main Entry: par·ry
Pronunciation: 'par-E
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): par·ried; par·ry·ing
Etymology: probably from French parez, imperative of parer to parry, from Old Provençal parar, from Latin parare to prepare —more at PARE
Date: 1672
intransitive senses
1 : to ward off a weapon or blow
2 : to evade or turn aside something
transitive senses
1 : to ward off (as a blow)
2 : to evade especially by an adroit answer <parry an embarrassing question>
- parry noun

[Darkstar]

I just wanted to add that you all should check out the posts in the Dev Request section of In Testing.  After playing some on test with friends the last couple days and talking to people there I cant stress enough how much everyone should oppose this patch - especially if you are a leather-wearing priest or mage.

If you are a Warden or Fury you will no longer be able to stand up to white-yellow solo mobs, blue or higher heroic mobs, or even many green heroic mobs.  Worse any multi-mob encounters solo or heroic excepting green solo ones will slaughter you - without parry it becomes impossible to cast heals through constant interrupts and this patch decreases our mitigation also substantially.

If you're a mage welcome to being a "1-hit wonder"  - any aggro and you die... not just in a fight, I mean run within range of an aggro mob and you'll be dead before you can hit sprint.  Its terrible ... and for some group encounters I noticed mobs singling out mages to attack with their AI and giving a special spoken statement like "Get the mage" or something.  So more mage aggro and no defense - we noticed no difference in wearing armor vs. being completely naked for mage defense.

If this patch is supposed to fix 1 minor high end over-avoidance problem, who knows, it may do that - although from what the tanks on test say it does it at the cost of completely screwing up tank balance and rendering several classes best abilities viutually useless - also some tanks now tank better naked /boggle.  BUT this patch is an UNIMAGINABLY HUGE nerf on everyone else.  It completely changes the game and undoes everything that has been done to this point in terms of raising leather armor mitigation, increasing soloability, versatility in group composition everything.  Why they have wasted time on this steaming pile of sh.. er code when they could have been fixing bugs, fixing balance and working on the expansion I can't imagine. 

Bottom line: Cap avoidance by level, Drop this whole combat re-write mess like a radioactive Mr. Hanky, and get back to doing something positive.

[Tami]

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DarkstarII wrote:

I just wanted to add that you all should check out the posts in the Dev Request section of In Testing.  After playing some on test with friends the last couple days and talking to people there I cant stress enough how much everyone should oppose this patch - especially if you are a leather-wearing priest or mage.

If you are a Warden or Fury you will no longer be able to stand up to white-yellow solo mobs, blue or higher heroic mobs, or even many green heroic mobs.  Worse any multi-mob encounters solo or heroic excepting green solo ones will slaughter you - without parry it becomes impossible to cast heals through constant interrupts and this patch decreases our mitigation also substantially.

If you're a mage welcome to being a "1-hit wonder"  - any aggro and you die... not just in a fight, I mean run within range of an aggro mob and you'll be dead before you can hit sprint.  Its terrible ... and for some group encounters I noticed mobs singling out mages to attack with their AI and giving a special spoken statement like "Get the mage" or something.  So more mage aggro and no defense - we noticed no difference in wearing armor vs. being completely naked for mage defense.

If this patch is supposed to fix 1 minor high end over-avoidance problem, who knows, it may do that - although from what the tanks on test say it does it at the cost of completely screwing up tank balance and rendering several classes best abilities viutually useless - also some tanks now tank better naked /boggle.  BUT this patch is an UNIMAGINABLY HUGE nerf on everyone else.  It completely changes the game and undoes everything that has been done to this point in terms of raising leather armor mitigation, increasing soloability, versatility in group composition everything.  Why they have wasted time on this steaming pile of sh.. er code when they could have been fixing bugs, fixing balance and working on the expansion I can't imagine. 

Bottom line: Cap avoidance by level, Drop this whole combat re-write mess like a radioactive Mr. Hanky, and get back to doing something positive.

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I am totally against the design of this revamp, but STAT-CAPS-ARE-BAD ... please dont push that without understanding the lasting impact of caps.  There are plenty of posts explaining (including those I have written) why this is so.

Part of the problem with this, it is hard to really see the vision they have without the fixing of broken spells and adjusting offense/healing to match.  That may address some of the gimping folks feel right now -BUT- again, the current system they have to deal with the defensive (and damage bonus) aspect is really poorly designed.

 

Message Edited by Tamian on 04-17-2005 10:31 PM

[Sebastien]

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DarkstarII wrote:

I just wanted to add that you all should check out the posts in the Dev Request section of In Testing.  After playing some on test with friends the last couple days and talking to people there I cant stress enough how much everyone should oppose this patch - especially if you are a leather-wearing priest or mage.

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Why are you asking people from Live to support combat mechanics that aren't even going to be a part of their patch?  There is a reason they are being left out of that patch for Live, and it is so that SOE can further test and MODIFY them. Also, you report that soloing a blue heroic mob is something that you can just barely do now.  Isn't that the way it should be?  Heroic mobs are designed with rewards appropriate for groups of 4 to 6.  You are one person.  Finding yellow solo encounters challenging to solo?  That's what yellow means.. challenging.  Not saying these mechanics are perfect yet, but then again, neither is SOE.. so why are we feeding the paranoia?

[Sebastien]

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Oghier wrote:

I, too, wonder if SOE has bitten off more than *we* can chew here.  If the issue is tanks becoming unhittable, why remove parry from mages and priests?  How is making it even *more* difficult for enchanters to solo necessary to balance guardians in high-end raid encounters?

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I agree that this change isn't consistent with that statement.  The only purpose of a change like that would be to reduce the effectiveness of priests and mages as soloists.  I know that druids are probably the best soloing class in the game, right up there with berserkers.. but playing an inquisitor I don't seem to solo particularly better than others, now that I have no stifle.  We have a wizard and also a necro in our guild that are both able to solo things that none of the rest of us can, so personally I never agreed that sorcerers and summoners were bad at soloing either.  But they really didn't seem to be in need of a nerf either, imo.

[TheTravell]

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Despair wrote:

I really am concerned about this.....

 

- First off..inquisitors already get blessed with being able to wear plate armor.  The rest of us get shafted and have to wear light armor. And now our ability to avoid the hits coming at us is going to be lost as well?

 

-Why can't the new plate mail theory (plate mail people get hit more often while very light armorer's can avoid more often) apply to everyone?  Why single out the Priest? Seems like this is going to go far from the "priest class balancing" that we have all been expecting since Inquisitors have the plate armor.

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Oh, so from now on only tank classes will be able to tank effectively ?!? ... errr, wait ...

 

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Also....I don't agree with the idea of "caps".  The game is supposed to be a real place...something you can get completely emmersed in.....close to reality......heh...in my lifetime...I have never had some overhead rule say I couldn't get stronger or better in some way...doesn't make sense.

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And you really think that through training you'd become able to lift a 20 ton truck, or run at 30 mph ?! Of course you could ask some IRL friend of yours to cast you a strength enhancing spell or such but ... well I have my doubts ...

 

Edited for typo.

Message Edited by TheTraveller on 04-18-2005 01:39 PM

[BWShellShocked]

Just one thought on this.. if you're going to remove parry, then you should remove our ability to wield swords as well.

Don't know about the Dev's experience with fencing (swordplay), but my son's instructor worked on parry techniques within the first couple of lessons.  Its basic to fencing (swordplay).  If we will no longer have the ability to parry, then it is not very realistic to have us able to use swords.

[Vathral]

All these threads are pointless. SOE wont do anything after reading these threads. Healers are going to be fine.

[imready2go]

"Just one thought on this.. if you're going to remove parry, then you should remove our ability to wield swords as well."

 

Oh, great Shock - give 'em one more idea on things to nerf why don't ya'? :smileyvery-happy:

[Oghi]

Many mages use staves.  Is there any weapon more useful for parrying than a staff?  I still do not understand how balancing avoidance issues for plate tanks requires priests and mages to take even more of a beating than they do now.

[bigmak20]

SOE thinks priests solo too easy?  /boggle I can't solo most grey heroic; which is OK I understand that.  It can't recall ever being able to solo green heroic; I'm probably forgetting one or two; but generally never.  Too many HP required and my lowly templar can't dish it out.  Fact is; I virtually stopped soloing in my mid 20s.  Took FOREVER; was OOP after killing -any- MoB except the most simple of animals (is there a SLAYER TITLE FOR CRABS?  Borekai; 39 Templar; SLAYER OF CRABS) . So I look at this toon I spent so much time making into a decent healer and now abilities are being taken AWAY?  How can it be?  This class/toon is not overpowering in anything at all. BTW; I fenced in college and I know what a parry is.  A priest can parry darn well with a stick; thank you very much; and if you want to talk any sort of 'realism' the PRIEST'S PARRY ABILITY SHOULD BE INCREASED.  No reason I can't deflect incoming while chanting my chants.  The arm waving is visually appealing but not a component of the SPELL (VOICE/THOUGHT).

Message Edited by bigmak2010 on 04-19-2005 11:23 AM

[Bad_Mojo]

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Doom Prophet wrote:

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Sebastien wrote:
Good luck with that.  I have tried the peppering approach this morning to clear up some misconceptions about these changes, and it doesn't seem to be working well.  /shrug

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Sebastien, can I ask you a question?  Why is it nearly all your postings are rated so low?  Is that because you are an idiot?  Thought so.

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I disagree with a lot of what Sebastien posts as well, but at least I know better than to throw stones if I live in a glass house.

Sebastien average message rating =

Doom Prophet average message rating =

[Tradeskill_Addict]

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bigmak2010 wrote:

BTW; I fenced in college and I know what a parry is.  A priest can parry darn well with a stick; thank you very much;

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parry with a wooden stick?

- yes if we are talking about japanese bamboo fighting sticks (usually wielded 2-handed)
- maybe if we are talking about a solid oak stick (but rather blocking Robins Merry Men-style)
- absolutely NO if your opponent wields a blade weapon against your wooden *whatever* :smileyvery-happy:

talking about any crush weapon its a BIG NO again.

That means if you wanted to compare  RL and EQ2

25th Templar on Lucan

[Kit_Oturea]

I play in live action games.

You can EASILY parry with crushing weapons. 

 

[LowfyrWildforge]

Okay, I'm sure all of you are master martial artists, whatever.   That's not the point.

 

First, take your "this is how it should be because that's how it would work in real life" garbage and deposit it in The Down Below, with the rest of the filth.  In case some of you haven't noticed, this is a fantasy game.  People fight huge monsters, lift 400 pounds, and use magic spells.  No one cares if falling objects accelerate faster than 9.8 meters a second.  No one cares that you have a rationalization, based on your fantasy calculations of the mass of Norrath.   Bottom line:  when you use the "real life" argument, you are declaring yourself an idiot.

Now: let's talk about game balance, fun, and playability.

Plate wielding healers are already punished for our heavy armor, in that we are generally considered less desirable compared to furies and mystics for healing because we have reactives, instead of wards, and lower heals/hp totals.   Don't get me wrong, I can still get groups, but if I'm directly competing with a hypotherical mystic, I'm going to lose out, assuming we are at comparably skilled as players.   Our main advantage is that when bad things happen, templars and inquisitors can survive for longer periods of time without dying.  This compensates for our lesser healing power.

Our other benefit is that we can solo somewhat.  Not anywhere near what some casters or a paladin can do, but we can.   The xp is a lot slower, solo, naturally.  But it sure is nice to be able to do when I want to do something besides heal a group.   When I'm the healer, I don't nuke, unless we need some Heroic Opportunity completed.  When I solo, I'm all about the nukes and melee.    The proposed changes would very likely eliminate our ability to solo single green mobs.  That means group healing is the only option.    Since I'm more squishy now,  I only have my heals to fall back on, which are not as good.  So, besides making the entire healer archetype completely vanilla,  you make some of the healers not even desirable at all.

If the rationalization for these changes is a few epic encounters, why not just change the epic encounters, then?  It seems a bit foolish to invalidate 33 percent of the healers in game.

Finally, if you're not one of the classes that will be affected by this change, chances are you don't know what you're talking about.  You might, but it's a heck of a lot less likely.  So shut up.  I haven't spoken up on caster nuke issues, because that's none of my concern.

xxoo,

Lowfyr Wildforge

40 Templar, Najena

[Tradeskill_Addict]

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Kit_Oturea wrote:

I play in live action games.

You can EASILY parry with crushing weapons. 

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since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.

 

the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!

 

I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of :smileymad:

Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 04-22-2005 03:26 AM

[Morogoth Drakul]

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since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.

 

the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!

 

I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of

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Of course in game we are not constrain by the limits of real life.....but you already knew that didnt you.  I will have to agree with one of the previous posters, this is a fantasy game you in essence have the strength of 10 men and can hurl magical bolts and your foes....how does this pertain to rl? so any references to rl are meaningless. I dont think parry should be removed from the priest line I get hit enough soloing as it is, after that is implemented I dont forsee in soloing infact I might stop playing my templar completely and go to my scout.  I remember when I could solo yellow and orange solos and green^^, seems after this that wont be remotely possible as the interrupts will be more consistant. 

[Bad_Mojo]

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LowfyrWildforge wrote:

Plate wielding healers are already punished for our heavy armor, in that we are generally considered less desirable compared to furies and mystics for healing because we have reactives, instead of wards, and lower heals/hp totals.   Don't get me wrong, I can still get groups, but if I'm directly competing with a hypotherical mystic, I'm going to lose out, assuming we are at comparably skilled as players.   Our main advantage is that when bad things happen, templars and inquisitors can survive for longer periods of time without dying.  This compensates for our lesser healing power.

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/boggle

Please tell me you are joking...

[Tu]

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LowfyrWildforge wrote:

 

Plate wielding healers are already punished for our heavy armor, in that we are generally considered less desirable compared to furies and mystics for healing because we have reactives, instead of wards, and lower heals/hp totals.   Don't get me wrong, I can still get groups, but if I'm directly competing with a hypotherical mystic, I'm going to lose out, assuming we are at comparably skilled as players.   Our main advantage is that when bad things happen, templars and inquisitors can survive for longer periods of time without dying.  This compensates for our lesser healing power.

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You have no idea about the game known as EQ2 do you?  Templars and Inquisitors have the best heals in the game in reactives.  Nobody else comes close to having that kind of healing power that can be stacked on to a single tank.  Wards are almost worthless and regen you might as well forget about it.

 

When a mob is hitting for over 3k a shot i would take the additional mitigation over 300 extra hps any day.

 

Also unless you are on test with your character then you have no idea what you are talking about with the current changes and you should take your own advice ..

 

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LowfyrWildforge wrote:

 So shut up.

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[Ramsy02]

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Duntzzzz wrote:

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Blackdog183 wrote:

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Duntzzzz wrote:

OK.. here goes..

I totally agree with the devs on every change that they are making at the moment.. There are some blatently obvious balance issues in the game as it stands with reguards to mitigation / avoidance / resistance / healing (So basically the whole combat system)  This was even more obvious to me last night, when I saw a level 47 caster SOLO a level 50 Group mob without any issues whatsoever, finising the fight with half power, and pulling another mob without a rest. Meanwhile, myself, and a few other guildies, have serious issues when it comes to soloing even-con group mobs and lower without being totally out of power or dead.  This screams to me that there are some overpowering issues that need to be addressed.  A single player SHOULD NOT be able to take down a goup encounter 3 levels higher, especially as easy as certain classes can now. whereas you get a Guardian who is made to take damage, try the same mob and last about 3 minutes before they are kissing dirt.  The entire system NEEDS a re-vamp.. 

What you were seeing had nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, that was simply an overpowered class.  Yes since the wizzy/warlock got their boost, they can and solo mobs well above their level without issues.  I solo my 40 warlock 5 levels higher without an issue...  And after this patch, that guardian will be biting dirt in less than 3 minutes, because his [Removed for Content] is gettin nerfed....

Just making a statement, that there shouldn't be any classes that should be able to solo, ^^ encounters 4-5 levels higher than them, no matter how skilled a player they are.

Another one I ran into a few days ago in EF, was when I saw a scout SOLO Iceberg and Jack, and was 3 levels lower than them.. yes it took the person about 20 minutes to kill, but it is an EPIC encounter, and there shouldn't be a way for a single person take down a GRP x 2 mob. I agree that skill comes into play, but that is almost rediculous!

Aye, but I highly doubt he was straight up tanking the mob, therefore the problem isnt avoidance and mitigation.

Again, this was a statement about something that should not be possible to do. I know that this has nothing to do with avoidance and mitigation, but has everything to do with game mechanics.

Another example.. Pally's currently are the BEST tanks.. they are a hybrid class. (Half healer / Half tank) Once you buff up a pally, there is absolutely no use for guardians in the game as they cannot take down the same encounters with the same level off efficiency for all group members.  Guardians are supposed to be the mitigation kings, and are currently out mitigated by other classes that should be getting hit more often, and take more damage. This is currently not how the system is working.. There are some major issues with game mechanics the way they are now which ARE making certain epic encounters totally trivial, as opposed to fun and challenging.

Im cant speak from firsthand experience on the issue of tanks buffing to stupid high levels of avoidance, but I can tell you what ive seen here.  What I have seen most people on the forums say, it was actually guradians that were achieving this with ease.  I like the comment about get hit more often and take more damage..this shows me you have little knowledge of how the tanks are supposed to work.  Guardian/zerker is meant to be high mit/low avoid, crusaders are med mit/med avoid, and brawlers are high avoid/low mit.  Problem atm is that mainly guardians are achieving high mit/insane avoid. 

Speaking from first hand experience, A level 50 Guardian, cannot tank the same level mob as efficiently as a level 50 Pally with the same gear and group dynamics. I agree that pally's should get hit less, but they SHOULD get hit harder. as well Guardians should get hit more, but mitigate more of that damage to balance it out.

I applaud the devs on realizing that there are some serious issues, and doing everything they can to make sure that this game isn't destroyed  by having 100000 toons of the 3-4 classes that are currently close to invulnerable with the right skills / buffs. What's the point of playing a game that is trivial? Everyone should welcome these changes, as it will bring more truely SKILLED players together, and make room for ALL classes to be needed in a group to defeat challenging encounters instead of the way it is working now.

Just think maybe you should look at the actual numbers before making that statement, because if you look aorund, you will a zillion warriors and helluva lot less of crusaders and brawlers.  And it wasnt 3-4 classes that are nearly invuln, from all reports that I have seen, its 1 or 2, and the numbers of poeple actually using the exploit were minimal.

This was more to put the point accross that the current game mechanics need work, and I am glad that they are spending the effort to make this game fun and challenging as opposed to trivial. The entire combat system NEEDS a revamp, and from what I've seen the people complaining the most about these changes are the ones who are currently soloing the ^^ encounters 3-4 levels higher than them with ease for un-heard of XP, and are [Removed for Content] that they will have to actually have to use a little effort and teamwork to defeat what SHOULD be challenging encounters.

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Message Edited by Blackdog183 on 04-15-2005 11:21 AM

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Im mainly pointing out the fact pally/guardians should be balanced out defensively= WRONG Most people are forgetting as it stands right now. Pallys are way overpowered compared to Guardians. I have a paladin friend that solos named epic mobsx2 4-5 lvls lower than him. Also, currently solos the same and Heroic named mobs with ease. Now i ask how is this possible? They got HEALS and pretty much the same defensive capabilities as Guardians. Yes only 1 MAJOR difference is . Guardians can use Towe shields and Paladins can only use Kite shields.. But if you think about it. How is that balanced ? Kite shield  depending on what you wear, is only about 100ac lower than same tier Tower shields. So basically now with new changes to kite/tower shield there will be hardly any difference in mitration/avoidance . Tower being 20%, Kite Being 1% . I mean, whats a big deal with a 1% ac difference with a shield thats 800 ? 8? wow..  AND Paladins can HEAL oh ya they can ALSO battle rez !!  With pally being able to heal they will always beable to trivialize mobs no matter  but this will definitly fix the Guardians being able to. I think the big thing that SOE needs to do here is Changing how armor works. The reason theres so many problems now is, all classes that use Heavy armor can use the same stuff.. warriors/guardians/sk/clerics/beserkers. In EQ1( i know this is a different game) they made it so warriors had higher ac equipable armor than other tank classes which really made this issue not to big of a problem. I mean if a guardian is suppose to be best Tank class.. thats why we give up healing abilities/offensive abilities. SOe is trying to make every class tank the same defensively which IMO is not possible without Guadians all retiring. What i mean by BEST tank class is, WE are the only class that is ALL DEFENSIVE. other tank classes have healing abilities(Pally), DPS(sk, beserker) , and here we are, guadians that have all defensive abilities but tank same if not worst because it takes more skill as a guardian to hold argo ..  Pallies have healing plus taunts for argo, SK has DPS for argo plus taunts , same with beserkers plus taunts. In Conclusion  guardians should have the highest mitgration and even avoidance than the other heavy armor tank classes. Paladins have heals/rezes instead , Beserkers have Major DPS compared to guardians . ShadowKnights have alot More DPS Compared to guardians Guardians, But now they all tank about the same(well not noticably different) if not (in some cases) better than a guardian Thats my 2cents

[Tradeskill_Addict]

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Morogoth Drakul wrote:

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since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.

 

the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!

 

I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of

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Of course in game we are not constrain by the limits of real life.....but you already knew that didnt you. 

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I was replying to someone taking in his live-action-game experience as a prove that parrying with crushing wps is possible.....but you allready knew that didn't you?....you just ignored it, right?

[Bad_Mojo]

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Tradeskill_Addict wrote:

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Kit_Oturea wrote:

I play in live action games.

You can EASILY parry with crushing weapons. 

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since we have real mediavel castles in Europe I happened to visit several real armories. its a favourite joke of guides sometimes to make people just trying  to LIFT the weapons there.

 

the toys you use at live action games weigh about 1/10 th of what a real CRUSHING weapon does. I remember once in castle Kreuzenstein (Lower Austria - yes the state is really called Lower Austria) struggeling to raise  a one-handed about 15-inch long iron mace (13th or14th century afair) - the beast did weigh well over 30 pounds!

 

I doubt  you can actually strike with a 30 pound crusher, Mr. Live-Action-Gamer - not to mention parrying an incoming blade strike before it cuts your head of :smileymad:

Message Edited by Tradeskill_Addict on 04-22-2005 03:26 AM

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It's probably fair to note here that back then, 30 pound maces existed because people could actually lift them and wield them efficiently.  This isn't about how well Joe Blow in Kansas who plays computer games all day can lift a 30 pound mace and actually use it.  It's about how someone native to the time period who actually trained (generally from a very young age) is able to lift that 30 pound mace and use it.  I think it's safe to say that if 30 pound maces were that hard for the good folks of Kreuzenstein to use, you would never have seen it on that tour... because they wouldn't have wasted the metal and time making it.  As for the entire 30 pound thing altogether, are you sure it just didn't feel like it weighed over 30 pounds? That's extremely heavy for a one handed weapon.

Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on 04-22-2005 02:00 PM

[See]

Parry, as a combat art, is a fencing term.  One does not parry with a staff.  One deflects with a staff.  One blocks with a staff.  The dictionary posting above seemed to intentionally leave out the last part of the definition that said "...as in fencing."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parry

That's just for clarification, not an endorsement for (or against) the current combat changes.

[Bad_Mojo]

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Seeko wrote:

Parry, as a combat art, is a fencing term.  One does not parry with a staff.  One deflects with a staff.  One blocks with a staff.  The dictionary posting above seemed to intentionally leave out the last part of the definition that said "...as in fencing."

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parry

That's just for clarification, not an endorsement for (or against) the current combat changes.

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I agree,  it should also be pointed out though that the link you posted uses the word "deflect" or "deflecting" in every definition of parry with the exception of the verbal one.  I think it's safe to assume that as far as mechanics go, they can be interchanged for most purposes.  I think you are dead on when you say "parry is a fencing term," as in the word itself probably originated with fencing... but a rose by any other name is still a rose.  We can maybe all put the semantics behind us now

Message Edited by Bad_Mojo on 04-22-2005 08:52 PM

[Katzentat]

Will make soloing Harder...

 

[Velda]

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Konda X wrote:

30 Warden here, and I'm not so much upset about losing the ability to parry but with how it changes class balance.  Tanks are already godly and nobody can keep up with them in the solo game.  They can easily take groups of green con heroic ^^ encounters without even getting hit, I as a priest however am very limited in being able to solo.

 

Right now fully buffed I have 52% avoidance, 21.5% of that is parry, and in the current state I have a hard time taking a 25^^ single pull without dying.  Mages can do it with roots or pets, tanks can do it without even getting hit, but I rely on my avoidance because of my light armor.  I dont have enough power to kill something and keep myself healed with the current avoidance, this makes it so much harder.  I really dont want to be required to group all the time. 

 

Clerics get heavy armor, and I know we are supposed to be balanced by the ability to do more damage, but as I level up the damage I do just gets worse and worse.  Before making a change like this place revamp some other aspects of the prist class, or change tanks so they actually NEED HEALS, instead of making a difficult job even harder to play.

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/agree

Defilers have the same soloing issues... ^^ encounters eat our power for lunch, even if they're blue / green and it gets worse at the higher levels. Apparently Healers are not a Solo class, at least not with the current game dynamics. Even some even and higher solo mobs are a challenge as we can't kill them fast enough.""

 

I just had to post on this part alone... Templars can't solo  ANY mobs that aren't conned as "suited for an individual" period.  We are the very lowest dps in the game.  At level 43 I watch all other classes soloing group mobs that would wipe the floor with me.  I'm wearing all orange gear using Hiero Crook  or Moonlight hammer/shield.  I have good wisdom and my spells are all at least App4... yet I couldn't even scratch the mobs I see Furies and Wardens soloing (with some risk I'll admit) and forget about melee classes and what they solo.  I watch them tear thru groups like it's no one's business... it's no wonder that finding a group is nearly impossible... we're the worst dps, slowest levelers, and we have almost the worst heals in the game.  And now they want to make us suck even more.  We even have the crappiest buffs.... I see wardens buffing my Wis thru the roof, shamans with str/agi buffs galore and sow, but hey, I can make lower level people bow!  And I can give a group a couple hundred extra hps at most.... means very little when I'm trying to heal a 50 guardian that has around 6900 hps and my best heal does 690 hps with a 4 sec cast time and a 9 sec recast time.  Now if the mobs would just stop swinging long enough for me to cast that 3 or 4 times.... instead of nerfing us in any way they need to address healing and solo ability because right now Templars have no solo ability compared to all other classes (except illusionists).   I feel really bad for all 3 or 4 of them in the game.  I don't see why it's a requirement for any decent xp group to have 2 healers minimum.  If anything it should be more like EQ1... Clerics (Templars / Inquisitors?) should be flat out the mainstay healers period.  Druids and Shaman should be healers but more in a buffing/debuffing way since they already have all those buff spells.  No matter what they do healing classes are going to get the shaft because there's no easy way in this game to balance the healing duties without screwing someone over. 

 

[otlg]

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Veldaar wrote:

I just had to post on this part alone... Templars can't solo  ANY mobs that aren't conned as "suited for an individual" period. 

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Ummmm... And you want to be able to single handedly kill stuff marked as 'a good fight for 3 or more'??????

Ok guys, I play a Fury on live and a Druid on test.  I'm not super plussed about the removal of parry.  Infact I think it's a daft idea to do it, *but*, just because some of you have been spoiled by basically being superman in the game and soloing red con double up group encounters with a heoric twist and reverse tuck whatever... come on...

Obviously no one should be able to solo group encounters IMHO unless the are well grey.  Sony's *biggest* mistake (again IMHO) was releasing this in a broken fashion in the first place.  If you all hadn't gotten completely used to basically *ignoring* the con system, this wouldn't have been a problem.

Simple fact is, those of us that got used to it playing that way feel this sucks.  Those that will join after these changes will have no idea and it will make perfect sense to them: "Hey, that's a group encounter... and it kicked my a**, makes sense!".  Meanwhile half of you will be running around 'They broke my character, I'm going to quit'.  Booo-frickin-hoo.  Adapt or leave, just like in reallife folks.

Osiri

(PS Put parry back in )

[Velda]

As a 44 Templar I see all fighter subclasses soloing encounters designed for groups of 3 or more.  They do it all the time.  It's no wonder they level so fast and don't want to group all that much.  I also see furies, wardens, rangers, warlocks, wizards and a few other classes that can and do solo "group of 3 or more" encounters.  There's simply no rhyme or reason anyone should be able to do this. 

The devs keep talking about balance and all subclasses doing their "job" equally well just differently.  Well I'm sorry to say that's never going to happen.  If you give Templars good straight up and/or reactive heals... you have to give them to druids and shamans too otherwise they'll be left out of the group game because people do what they did in EQ1.. take a cleric they're the best.  If you give druids and shamans good heals, then you leave the Templars out in the cold because druids and shaman have way better buffs than Templars.  There's no way they will be able to balance this without making all priest classes carbon copies of each other which then negates the reason for having subclasses. 

As for parry, I can't imagine any good reason for taking it away.  We already have enough problems with interrupts and getting beat down.  Heavy armor is nearly useless.  It's sad that when I look at armor I look at the resists and stats rather than the mitigation.   I don't see how 11 points of damage from a dot spell should consistently interrupt me when I have 219 skill in all my spell classes and I'm level 44 with something around 3500+ hps... that's a minor scratch at best and shouldn't interrupt my spell casting... now a barrage of 950 from a giant in Permafrost ya that should easily interrupt me. 

 

As said pretty much everywhere else,  EQ2 is still in beta only we're paying for it.  Altho I don't anticipate they'll be getting my money much longer as there are more and more options out there in the gaming market.