any info on what combat changes will do to brigs?

[kyth]

    Actually all the trait/taining skills suck in comparison to their normal counter part. Master 1 Murderous Rake: 362-604dmg and neg 1152 mitigation vs all magical damage.  That means everything except crush/pierce/slash. Tani's Violent rake: 236-394 dmg and  neg 780 mitigation vs all magical dmg.

[Kirma]

why would murderous rake pic only say ''magical debuff by bla bla'' then while the other clearly name every one of them..? I was thinking that murd rake was just magic flagged resists. ie 1

[kyth]

    it was explained that all magical resists refers to everything except physical dmg.  I.E. Crush, Slash, and Pierce that is why i know this and i explained it after you said what you did.  i Definately do not want people getting screwed by /respec come CU

[Gyilok]

while I like to see most of the screens, the power costs seem huge (216 on subdue?!!!), and I miss the self agility buffs aswell, why did it disappear from aegis?

[Gn]

appears they've decided to remove disable from our line too.  I love the feeling of backwards progression of existing skills.  I hate to think of  how many wasted masters I will have when they're done pooching things up.

[WuphonsReach]

None of the traits/training spells have been re-balanced (yet). They're saving that for last from what I've heard, once they finish balancing out the main spell lines.The de-aggro spells are very useful... especially our new Plead for Mercy. (Works well, I used it a few times last night while we were mucking about killing epics.) There's a very short range on the Plead for Mercy line, I'd say about the same as the Intervene line, so you'll need to run over to the person you're trying to save.Lie Low works as well as it ever did (I used it last night).

[ag]

---

Gyilok wrote:while I like to see most of the screens, the power costs seem huge (216 on subdue?!!!), and I miss the self agility buffs aswell, why did it disappear from aegis?

---

Power cost is a very large concern for Brigands, and rightly so. 216 is extremely high, to the order of 10-12% of the total power of many 50 Brigands poof in a single combat art. I'm hoping SOE adjusts these power costs down a bit, because currently some are downright punitive.

[kyth]

    we will go through our line of ca's once or twice then be completely out of power

[Sharpen]

I didnt see Aegis at all in the screenshots of the CAs, could you include that? or is it gone?

[Aral]

Aegis is in there, it's a large strength buff now, no agility, but physical mitigation increased as well.  I like it.  Str much better than Agi any day.  Especially since we'll be out of power so fast and relying on autoattack

[kyth]

    Some food for thought~~ --Assassin-- Anthema- Master 1: Decrease 12.8 Defense, Decrease mitigation by 400 vs all pysical attacks Cripple- Adept1: inflicts 497-882 melee damage.  Decrease defense by 13.3 Disapear- Master 1: lvl 50 sneak, Slow movement 12% --Brigand-- Wrange- Master 1: Decrease AGI by 62. Decrease Defense by 12.8 Desperate Thrust- Master 1: Decrease defense by 11.8 Lurk- Master 1: lvl 50 sneak.  Slow movement 41% Ok, so assassins can debuff Defense by 1.5points more then us.  Well i find that kind of funny considering we are the "debuffers".  Also what i really find funny is that it has been stated that Defense will have caps both positive and negative.  So what is the true "Hard" cap on defense debuffs.  Since assassins and brigands combined will drop a mob 50.7points of defense or 10 levels.  That is a rather large ammount and well is 10 levels the cap? Also, since we are the "debuff" melee what are the true caps on everything.  What is the cap on Mitigation(both physical and "magic"), Defense, and stat debuffing.  I dont want to see that 1 brigand, 1 assassin, 1 swash, and 1 shaman lets say is all you need to hit all the hard caps on debuffs.  That means that anymore brigands and swashbucklers will be pointless on raids. Anyways i would love some real numbers from a dev.  Nothing on caps can be tested since we do not have a free-for-all style pvp arena.  Even then pvp debuff caps might and mostlikely will be diff then pve. Oh, why do we have a MUCH slower over 300% slower sneak then assassins.

[ag]

That is food for thought, indeed. I'd say Debilitate plays a part here, as well, but strictly from a defense perspective, those numbers don't align with the current design goals for unique sub-class definitions.And I don't mind assassins having a faster personal sneak, as long as ours is reasonably close (41% is not reasonable) and our group sneak line gets fixed (as the dev team has indicated they're waiting for a global change to do so).

[kyth]

    well [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], my request to have my class changed from brigand to assassin was denied by a GM this morning.  Well more like he/she told me they cant do it. lol

[Damari]

couple of quick comments,

Noticed ruthless cunning now 5.5% at ap4.  Anyone with RC at ad3 able to list the new DPS %.  Not sure why waylay is front only, we don't belong there.  I guess our utility is clearly defined now, we are THE mellee debuffers to call.  Overall, I'm keen to see how we perform.

 

Message Edited by Damari on 08-07-2005 06:05 PM

[Damari]

After going through Figgs screenshots and committing the information to spreadsheet, I really only found one inconsistancy in the CA descriptions.

For the Skill Tangle (lvl 42) the recast time is one minute and the duration is 30.0 seconds.  This is inconsistant with our other debuffs where the recast time is shorter than the duration of the debuff.

Also, Anyone have any idea as to the effect: Increases Blurs Vision. (On deceit and Subdue).

Thxs

Message Edited by Damari on 08-07-2005 11:07 PM

[ThunderFunky]

*sigh* 

 

Thanks to all for posting, as far as what I've read so far... its kinda not looking so good for us.  I'm hoping they make better choices and decisions before the release. 

I started my Brigand for one reason 50 lvls ago, and that was to be as close to an EQ1 rogue as possible,  went out got the strat guide and read up on it, decided to make a Brig.  I absolutely love the charactor like it is ALTHOUGH, from the roleplay aspect of it I feel that a hunter (ranger) or mercinary (assassin) would be the one with more utilities less dps, and a Brigand (blood thirsty killer)  would be king melee dps...  just not making any sence to me atm.  I'm very dissappointed but I'm not giving up my Brig.  I think its pretty sad however that there revamping all this now.  I understand that there's always gona be nerfs on certain CA's, spells, etc, but something as massive as this almost feels as if your starting out with a totally new charactor..... (that you had no choice pick from the get go)

I scared to fall into that chatagory of  "well there's no assassin's on.. ok  i guess we can pick up this brig for group"    but I fear thats the way it MAY be...

thanks for all the imput guys

lets hope for the best

Vamprella 50 Brig                                                                           

Najena  *The Unlikely*

[Red Whisper]

Personally, I think brigands are looking very good in the revamp.  It seems that utility, a concern for brigands from day one will increase dramatically with the added magic, mental, .etc mitigation de-buff.  It looks like we're losing several small de-buffs to get a smaller number of more significant ones, which is fine with me.  As for raids,  I've been discussing how this intervene type change could be useful in conjunction with a new illusionist spell that will cause a group member to proc 1500 melee damage on a set timer (can't remember the exact time).  Being put in a casters group might save some of the wizard or chanter deaths since I can usually (though god knows not always) lose aggro before dying and the mages can't while the proc could replace some of the lost dps.  I haven't thought this all the way through, just speculation.  I'm not sure how ruse is really going to work in raid scenarios, but I rarely bother with it anymore except on adds anyhow.

One question I have though, anyone know if the rake-line will have the same range after revamp as it does now?  Being able to cast that new mitigation debuff while dodging wrath of fury would be nice.

 

 

[Gyilok]

the combat changes look pretty good imo, though it can not be repeated enough times, that I will not accept losing the ability to use my bow

I don't like the skill that is there to lessen hate on other players (why should a brigand care for anyone but himself?), but well, I've got the option not to use it after all...

just to go back to the brigand image, many people refer seem to refer to it in this topic: the brigand is best described by the way ruse used to function in the early days imo: bang! a big chunk of mob hp disappears, all asking [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] was that? and the brigand is standing there hiding his smile and also asking who did that? thats my idea of being and playing a brigand, deceiving and distracting the mobs (aswell as others to get  a clobber in) and never drawing attention on themselves, and should the mob turn on us because we hit it too hard, to be able to convince it "hey I didnt do it, it was that bloody assassin!!"

 

[kyth]

    you can still use your bow, but the bow CA's are replaced with throwing weapon CA's

[Gyilok]

yes, I know, but the changing of the ca-s to throwing only points out they intend rogues not to use bows

looks like they want to correct the mistake they made in the beginning (most ranged ca-s working with bows only) with another mistake, but this time only rogues will be hit

[kyth]

    personally i almsot never used the CA's. well until recently when i was bow kiting in Vox's room while waiting for her to pop.  Other then that ya never.  I am just happy i can use them in Epic fights now. 

[Gyilok]

---

kythik wrote:
      I am just happy i can use them in Epic fights now. 

---

thats a good point there

[Kirma]

im re-rolling assassin or dirge if this is really how our dmg is going to be.. seriously all dot / bstab lines went down to crap.

[Gyilok]

---

Kirmatt wrote:

im re-rolling assassin or dirge if this is really how our dmg is going to be.. seriously all dot / bstab lines went down to crap.

---

be sure to say hello on assassin boards, I'm sure they will love it lol

another thing I've noticed that we will be the worst off by far (of scouts) when it comes to fight vs groupsmobs, people on test should address this aswell

yes, make subdue full ae+ stun, (assassins and shwashies also have a 1min timer ae for example and a shorter recast one)since they almost tripled the power cost! and noooooooooooo it will not be overpowered.

[Kirma]

already have my new bard. lvl 17 in 4 hours. im slacking =

[Aral]

Some things for a tester or better yet, DoF beta member to make plain on feedback board (since us other folks aren't supposed to post on that  board):

1. Need a 40's upgrade to Craven delight.  It's balanced fine for a non-growing spell at 37, but 13 levels in this new system makes it far too weak for one of our main attacks.  This was one of the promises made when spells were changed to not grow with level - we absolutely need an upgrade to this, say around 45, 46.

2.  Waylay from the front makes it useless for raiding - most frontal shots are avoided, and taking a chance on a riposte is not worth the risk and movement for this.  This needs to be returned to 360, or even back only.

3. We need some damage to make up for the loss of ruse.  The new ruse is 100% useless in raiding, a suicide spell that doesn't even do much for damage.  The other arts need to make up for 2500 damage every minute, somewhere.

4. Subdue's power cost is either a mistake, or subdue being single target is a mistake.  It's not even that powerful for a level 50 art, even fighter classes have larger hits.  The power requirement is ridiculous. 

5. The assault line of fighter mobs to be removed.  Mobs don't have to (and cannot  if the game is to be playable) use every art from their related PC class.  Putting a mini WoF on every single fighter mob in the game is just a TAD ridiculous.  Barrage gave a nice risk to non-tank melees - avoidable if you positioned correctly, gave a good reason not to turn the mob via aggro.  Assault forces jousting for non-tank melees, or a second healer.  [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] were they thinking?

[kyth]

1. Honestly i dont see Craven Delight being an issue atm.  2.  Waylay has been brought up.  Again it is a useles skill on rads. 3.  With WoF and other issues Ruse was never a good skill to use on raids.  Why would you expect them to give us something to make up for it?  Infact i think waylay should be changed back to anywhere and the new ruse line be front only.  It was made to be a soloing skill not a group/raid skill.  Although ruse was a broken skill given to a broken class as a cookie to try to keep us happy. 4. Just subdue? ALL skills have an insane power cost now.  Couple that with Clarity changes and auto attack will be most of our DPS.  we will go through our skill bar a few times and then we will be OOP.   5. It is 1 dev that is adding WoF TO EVERY MOB.  He feels it makes them more challenging or something.  So instead of making encounters or events that are unique and challenging.  He feels he can just add WoF to the current ones to make up for them all being such a push over.  Honestly i feel that Prathun (eq1 dev) needs to get pulled to the eq2 team and show these guys whats up.  Although i will say that Arathym made awsome encounters in the SP adv pack.        Though instead of redoing the current Contested encounters that 1 dev decided to just add WoF to them and leave it at that.   ITs sure easier then making thoughtful encounters that are both fun and challenging.  Then there is the loot, but i wont go off on that rant now.     Biggest thing that i think needs to happen is that we need Class reps like they added to eq1.  Give us 1 person that has a direct line to the devs.  Have that person filter out all the crap tht people post/spam and find the meaningful issues.  then that class rep can send that to the devs and we can get REAL answers and perhaps timelines on when they will be implemented. 

Message Edited by kythik on 08-09-2005 08:35 AM

Message Edited by kythik on 08-09-2005 08:39 AM

[Aral]

The 3 damage-focused combat art lines which defined brigands are the short recast flank/interrupt (distracting blade through gambit), the flanking dd/dot (sneak attack through Shiv), and the pure backstab (hidden shiv, craven delight).  These make up the bread and butter of dps throughout the levels, along with Ruse - which most brigands do use on a large proportion of raids very effectively.  Agg. Assault wasn't in the same league, though the training used to be nice; we'll see what happens there.

 

When spells grew by level, having a level 38 CA as the end of the line wasn't a problem - it mastered near enough to 50 to be effective.  Craven was reduced necessarily since it would be full power right at level 38, but this makes it quite weak by 50.  It does need an interim upgrade, which was the solution described by the devs to mitigate the loss of spell growth by level.  The warlocks are experiencing the same issue with Nil distortion, though with the plethora of T5 AE damage gained, it's a wash. 

 

So with the loss of Waylay as a damage CA, the weakness of Craven at 50, the loss of ruse damage, the severe nerfing of Gambit's damage - something has to be improved.   Craven delight getting a higher level upgrade - as was the Vision and expressed design of the combat revamp  - is what's needed.  The positional requirement and thus increased damage of this line is one of our defining skills.  We are the "backstabbers" of EQ2.

 

As for point 5, I'm not talking about WoF, but the Mini-version of it which every fighter mob on test now has - Assault.  As with the raid mobs, the main effect of this is to require non-tanking melees to either joust, or require a large amount of extra healing.  This is on normal everyday group mobs. 

 

[kyth]

    Well honestly not like Craven Delight is going to be an issue for most of us anyways.  Honestly once the ewxpansion hits and we get lvl 60 in  a month or so we will have all new skills.  Every skill we have now will mostlikey we replaced with something else. Its just too bad that they havent released anything saying what the new skills are.

[Gyilok]

if the deagro skills will work correctly, I will not hesitate to use the ruse line at all, especially if the increase threat does the same as it does with ruse now=nothing