Defense concerns

[Dovifat]

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Drexell2 wrote:

Icrog: Where did they say once we choose our subclasses that we will all be able to be Main tanks? What they said was, n the begining game, everyone would be the same, and you would have time to make your choices before choosing your final subclass. You will never be albe to tank like a Guardian, SOE never intened you to be able to. nor will you be as effective at it as a Warrior, or probably even the crusader classes. HOWEVER, you will always be able to get agro in a pinch, you will always be doin gmore damage then the meatsheilds, and you will always have a chance FD your way out of a jam. You signe don for all this stuff. If all you wan tto do is stand in frm of a group of mobs and get hit, you chose poorly, don't blame the game designers for building a very well balanced class...at least so far at least. We will see once we all start hitting th higher levels.

Drexell

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Moorgard in fact specifically stated that a Guardian would not be a better tank than a Bruiser. That was long ago, but i dont know of any newer statement.

[Jezekie]

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Icrog wrote:

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Jezekiell wrote:

Those of you who are happy being 2nd tanks, fine, if you want to be that. But don't try to push that down everyones throat with false ideas of how the class truely is. Or go moaning about how underpowered we truely are, when infact we're just fine as it is.

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How can we be fine if the majority of Bruisers cannot tank as well as other fighters. We should not have to spend more money on equipment with certain stats to just keep up with other fighters. Im not complaining, I love my bruiser and wouldnt place another fighter class, im just stateing the facts.

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You do not speak for the majority of the bruisers, hardly a fraction is present on the forums, so because a select few are vocal about their dis-like/conserns about the current state of the bruiser, it doesn't mean everyone else shares your view. I'm certain you'd find it to be the other way around, that infact more enjoy the class as it is, versus players not being content with the class.There are some of you on this forum that need to drop the idea of Bruisers/Monks being created for pure DPS, and no tanking at all. When that's not the designers intent, nor is it a fact of real world preformance of both classes.So Icrog, you're hardly stating any facts.

[Jezekie]

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benisbored wrote:

If you like your class, GREAT! More power to you. But since these forums are likely read by Devs, they are good forum for appeal and thus should not be cluttered by mindless character bashing and completely factless assaults on the quality of someone’s playskill

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And that's all fine and dandy, on the other hand what this forum doesn't need, is people posting threads largly exaggerating on how the current class situation is, you'll see these apparent in both the Brawler, Monk and the Bruiser forums.The "assaults", are equally factless compared to the threads about the concerns of our Defense/Tanking, depending who you ask.There are those of us still playing the class since beta (Dovifat and my self atleast, probably others lurking about), that know what the content is atleast up until 34ish, and how the class compares to that, as well as what the intention for the class is. So when you see some "assault" from someone, it's more likly becasue that player actually has a fairly broad base of understanding about the class vs content, and allthough wordly poorly by some, they are still right to a certain extend.But alas, until someone hooks up a log parser to track Blocks, Parries, Dodges, Ripostes, it'll be someones word vs the world really.To take this thread in another direction, and stay on the original topic. I do find that Insquisitors does not function as well as a Fury or Defiler, when it comes to us tanking in groups. That's not to say they don't get the job done, they do. But it "feels" more efficient when there's a Fury or Defiler in the group. AGI and STR buffs are a welcomed addition to our class. Where as the Inquisitors has little to offer besides healing.

[IkkyScar]

Ok let me start out by saying I'm a level 31 Bruiser on Crushbone.

 

Put thy concerns away my fellow bruisers.  We can actually tank better in MANY situations then plate wearers, and it's starting to [Removed for Content] those plate wearers off.

 

I use Brawlers Stance (Bouncer is an upgrade to Brawlers but currently Bugged), and I combine it with Bob & Weave (upgrade to Martial Focus).  I get hit for WAY more then a tin can, but rightly so since I'm wearing light armor and he's wearing heavy.  However, I simply don't get hit.  I work best with a shamans wards.  I can literrally go through fights with 2 up arrow oranges and not lose a single ounce of health when I combine my skills w/a shamans wards.  Now it gets dicey when your in groups that don't kill fast and/or don't have a shaman.  I can still do it with an inquistor or fury but I don't do *as well*.  I still tank just fine though. With a Shaman, we are basically over-powered at this point.

 

Note also this is against "big" mobs.  The two up arrow biggies is where we excel.  The 6 no arrow mob pulls can at times eat us up, since our parry/block/riposte/evade etc. is either based upon them being in front of us, or those skills go down the more attacks we have on us.  I.E.  I get hit a lot more vs multiple no arrow enemies then I do against one big 2 up arrow.

 

Don't lose heart, you just need to find people who understand the power of the bruiser.  It's hard because Tin Can's INSIST they tank better, but once you make a Shaman friend, they quickly realize you make the better tank in a lot of instance and insist you tank from then on

 

Guber--31 Bruiser Crushbone

[Icr]

Hey guber! =)

I dont think the majority of Bruisers will always grp with a shammy or should have to just to fullfill their role as a tank.

Scrubs
25 Bruiser of Crushbone

[Durlinn]

Since when are monks tanks??? Fighters, yes. Tanks, no. Youre a damage dealer, not taker. I personally have had no problems tanking with mine, but certainly not as well as a plate armored fighter. This is how it should be. Eventually, the idea is to beat the crap out of everybody before they can hurt you. But at lower levels, youre just a light armored fighter. This is a silly complaint. I doubt we'll hear the guardians complaining that their DPS isnt as good as other fighters.

[Jezekie]

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Durlinn wrote:

Since when are monks tanks???

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Since the designers that made the game said so.

[IkkyScar]

It is somewhat situational.  I don't NEED a shaman to tank, but I do better with one.  I can tank just fine in groups still at level 30+.  There are some situations where a tin can tanks better and some where I tank better.  I get hit for more damage when I do get hit yes.......but I also get hit way less often.  Like I said it's situational.  I'm tanking in Runneye just fine at lvl 31 though, even red con ^^'s.  We are "perceived" as not being able to tank.  You just need to get people to realize you can, and they will continually ask you to tank for them

[Ranzera]

I played a Bruiser to 20 - realised how horribly underpar they are compared to everyone else and went back to my Shaman - Consequently I will not allow any bruiser to become main tank ever.

 

Sorry - But I dont care for the excuse that "you need to have everything possible upgraded and  the best equipment for your level otherwise your an idiot" response. I know that the average bruiser out there doesnt and its not possible for everyone so why take the risk ey?

 

If 3 bruisers out of the many of this forum dont see the obvious problem with this class its because the are deep in a very successful group that can hide the obvious inadequacies of this class.

 

 

[Oidan]

Make that 4 then, I dont see any problems tanking and have regualrly get tells from folks asking me to tank. Lot of you guys think that we are all the same, we are not. You cant just be given a pallet and say I can tank. You also need skill to tank. I join grps as dps but if I see that the main tank (whatever class) is stupid, then I just simply take over and it becomes my show.

 

There are a lot of people out there who do not know how to play their class. Every bruiser I have talked to in game have absolutely no complaints. If you are having problems then maybe you should rethink the way you tank, I am not puttin you down at all but I just really dont get it. Its the man/woman who makes their character sucessfull not the gear/skills.

[Ranzera]

Not getting in an arguement - Youre happy - no worries.

 

I guarantee we are doing exactly the same things have very comparable equipment and our skills are upgraded where necessary.

 

 I fight oj - red mobs with an exepctionally skilled group.Their feedback is that I am far from optimal so I will change.

 

Your happy tanking yellows - great.

Sorry - I wont settle for second best.

[Twizz]

Hi

 

I've been looking around the class boards to get an idea about the different fighters. I simular issues on every class board (not only fighters).

 

My personal opinion is, it's way to early to start discoussing class balance. Maybe some abilities but not an entire class. People will learn to take advantage of their class over time. It's impossible to balance anything until a large amount of the comunity reaches higher levels.

 

Some guardians say they can't tank...

Some bruisers say they can't tank...

Seen some berzerkers say it too...

Same discussion goes on on the SK boards...

Simular things are posted on the monk boards.

 

Go figure, noone can say anythign for sure yet.

 

Currently level 22 Fury and starting a fighter alt.

 

[lordofdrago]

Gang, let me point out official EQ2 class descriptions from the EQ2 Web Site:Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.Busiers are powerfull thugs who use raw physical force to pummel their opponents into submission. They have transformed their bodies into brutal weapons designed to inflict suffering upon their enemies.From those descriptions, Guardians ARE the tanks. That is the way the game is designed. We might tank better from time to time but in general they should be better than us. We deal damage, in a head to head fight, we should out damage all other melee classes, including scouts, most of the time. Scouts should out damage us in optimal positions.I understand the complaints, I feel your pain, I really do. I'm not making light of any of it. However, Bruisers are not meant to be main tanks. We were promised high damage in face to face fights, not tanking.Lets be honest, does it make sense that a guy in light armor and often with nothing in his hands is going to out tank someone in full plate and holding a shield... even in a fantasy world?Balance Blackrain22 Half Elf Bruiser

[Roddy]

I am saying this again bruisers are not tanks. If you want to be a tank go beserker. They do better damage and can outtank guardians. Bruisers are ment for power and they should scrap most of their unbenefficiial tanking side and boost our power. They should fix boarst jeer and intimidate and alot of other skills we have. Sucker punch and attack from behind does less damage from an attack in the front so why should we use it. We are not tanks unless the other tanks are all dead or asleep. Face it the bruiser class is a MUTT class thats all.

[Ripp]

All the evidence of my gameplay to date in Live and the time I spent in beta contradict everything you have just posted RoddyRo.

 

I can tank.  I do tank.  I do not understand where people are getting this perception that we can't fulfull the role of our archetype.

[Baelno]

From a clerics perspective, one of the best tanks I have grouped with thus far has been an 18th level bruiser and this was with an 18th level warrior and 18th level crusader in the group. During combat, I could easily keep the bruiser up with a couple of BoVs whereas the warrior and crusader required considerably more healing power. It got to the point where the entire group felt it was better to have the Bruiser tank rather than the crusader or warrior.-Baelnorm

[duk4]

I'm not a bruiser yet just a brawler, but with me a warrior and a druid we roll stuff easy and i'm the main tank.  Warrior casts intervene on me so we take advantage of both classes abilities.  I main tank because i get hit less often, when i do get hit me and the warrior share the dmg so that the druids regenaration spell is able to keep us both near full and he doesn't have to use many direct healing spells at all.  Of course we are pretty dmg heavy especialy when our bard and swashbuckelr join us so most stuff dies really fast. 

[Moski]

@the figters and brawlers who are posting here that they are the great tanks:this is the bruiser subclass forum. if u arent a bruiser and so u cant talk about how well a bruiser is balanced and designed pls post at the rifgt forum (aka figter or brawler subclass)!sure a figter/brawler is able to tank as well as a war/crusader. even a mage is able to tank in the teens!bruiser getting more and more problems as they lvl.lvl 29 bruiservalor (german language server)

[Oidan]

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Ranzerain wrote:

Not getting in an arguement - Youre happy - no worries.

 

I guarantee we are doing exactly the same things have very comparable equipment and our skills are upgraded where necessary.

 

 I fight oj - red mobs with an exepctionally skilled group.Their feedback is that I am far from optimal so I will change.

 

Your happy tanking yellows - great.

Sorry - I wont settle for second best.

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Well that is your problem, you are fighting red mobs. Of course it is gonna hurt when you get hit. I dont fight red mobs, only yellow and below. Let me ask you a couple of questions.

This exceptionally skilled grp, do you have a guardian among them? If so, then why are you trying to tank? If you tank ur grp is losing out on dps because you have to use your defense buffs rather than your offensive buffs. Guardians dont nearly do the damage we do so now the guardian is forced to pick up your slack in the dps dept but he cant.

Sounds like you are not doing well against red mobs, I suggest exping on lesser cons meanin yellow - blue or get a guardian so you dont hinder the grp.

 

Message Edited by Oidan on 12-03-2004 12:36 AM

[EgilRon]

I am a 24 defiler.  A defiler is a Bruisers best friend.  Lets start by explaining how the three main heals work.

 

All three Healing classes have direct heals.  These are horrifically ineficient, and should only be used when things are getting desperate (ie the primary heal isn't keeping up).  All three classes have a simialr direct heal, but I try to use it as infrequently as possible.

 

Now, on to the three heal types:

 

Cleric - Reactive heal.  This heals for a set amount every time you are hit.  When you dodge, parry, block, etc, this WILL NOT heal you.  It also only heals you a SET amount every time you are hit.  A Warrior gets hit most of the time for low dmg.  A Brawler gets hit infrequently for high damage.  Reactive heals WILL get overwhelmed on a Bruiser every single time, but work great on Warriors.

 

Druid - Heal over time.  This heals a set amount every tick for a certain number of ticks.  This is the most "neutral" form of heal their is.  Brawlers and Guardians should do equally well with the a druid as main healer.  However, druids have a BIT more difficulty as the MH as their HOT spell will normally be overwhelmed in big group encounter.  They do however stack superbly with either a Shaman or Cleric.

 

Shaman - Wards.  This protects from a set amout of UNMITIGATED damage.  When you dodge, parry, block etc, this is not used up.  When the Warrior gets hit constantly, the FULL, unmitigated hit is removed from the warrior (ie, his armour does nothing).  As such, when healing a warrior, it is a spamming wards..  When healing a brawler, it is a much more relaxed experience, as every extra block/dodge etc. you guys do is less heaing for me.  But your both getting hit for the same amount.

 

As someone else posted above, Brawlers also tend to work better against 1 ^^ mob, guardians and such against 6 standard mobs (but even then, if you have a Shaman as your healer, you will be better).

 

The reason you are feeling underpowered is that too much of the player base still wants a cleric to heal them (which is nonsense), and too much of the player base wants a warrior.to tank, due simply to prejudices from EQ1.  But, Shaman + Brawler = Warrior + Cleric.

 

Also of note, don't be a [Removed for Content] and, with 2 freaking shaman in your group, refuse to even TRY to tank when your group doesn't have a tank, which happened to me last night.  

[Emrik]

Maybe its just my point of view , but the way I see brusiers in eq2 is an evil version on an eq1 monk. This is the attitude I had in mind when I rolled mine and have not been disapointed yet. The role I see us in is primarily dps/light off tank. We dont tank as well as any other warrior , that much doesnt need to be argued. I would however like to address the concerns of our dps vs a scout. What you have to consider in my opinon is this, there are a lot of trade offs. First and foremost for scouts to get the big damage numebrs they have to be in stealth, flanking or behind the mob, ( some cases only behind). For most of our abilities we can be in any postion (yes I know there are some we have to flank but no where near the amount that scouts have to do). I guess what Im trying to say is this, We probably do around 75% of the damage a scout does, but we are no where near as positonaly dependant. They have evade which is ok but fd to drop agro is far supperior. If the healer is getting pounded on we tank prolly at least 50% better then the rogue ,have taunts to pull agro + intervine and other skills to help out. If you want to take hits from dragons and laugh you are playing the wrong class, you would prolly be happier in the warrior/crusader subclasses  . If you want to do a single huge dps hit every 15-30 seconds and a spam of dual wield damage then scout class is prolly where ya wanna go.

[Tresva]

I just don't see the problem like some of you do.  Are we a stand up, jump in the middle and let all the mobs pound on us tank like a plate wearer?  No - absolutely not.  But I know I can tank whenever needed just fine.  There have been multiple occasions where the MT went down, I had to pick up agro and keep the fight going, and had no problems.  I've also been the MT on numerous occasions with out a problem.   The big challenge is to keep the mobs in front of you, once they get behind you'll get shredded.   Making use of your defense buffs has a huge impact also.

 

Having played a monk for 5+ years in EQL (quite at lvl 6, I'm MUCH happier with the ability of a bruiser to tank than my monk ever was able to.  We have good DPS, a good ability to ST or MT in a pinch, and there's always feign death to fall back on.

 

Sure, I won't **mods 4 teh win!!1!** if SoE gives us some boosts (who would?), but I guess I don't see them as being needed.

[VettsVey]

OH I was right... BOOM!

 

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009

[RDescha]

I'll be damned...

 

That makes me so happy! Honestly, I've been content with how I've been tanking so far, and to know I've gone ALL this way without using deflection? We might just be able to tank like warriors now....From the front, at least. That's just awesome, right when I think the class can't get any better. =) I guess I shouldn't be surprised, they did say all fighters are supposed to tank equally, and with this deflection bug (my deflection is at 100 and something, and I've never actually used it?! O-o) we might actually be able to tank as intended. Awesome.

[Dovifat]

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RDeschain wrote:

I'll be damned...

That makes me so happy! Honestly, I've been content with how I've been tanking so far, and to know I've gone ALL this way without using deflection? We might just be able to tank like warriors now....From the front, at least. That's just awesome, right when I think the class can't get any better. =) I guess I shouldn't be surprised, they did say all fighters are supposed to tank equally, and with this deflection bug (my deflection is at 100 and something, and I've never actually used it?! O-o) we might actually be able to tank as intended. Awesome.

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He in fact said they broke it in one of the last patches. So you have probably been playing without it a week or two. The concerns about Brawlers' tanking and their general role are still very valid, although some posters tend to exaggerate them a lot.

Message Edited by Dovifat on 12-04-2004 03:29 AM

[RDescha]

I've only been playing for a week or two.   But yes, you're right, I could have played with the skill while it was working.

 

Edited because that sounded sarcastic ^, and it's not meant to be.

Message Edited by RDeschain on 12-04-2004 06:02 AM

[EgilRon]

Even with deflection broken, as a Defiler (Shaman), the bruiser tanked better than the guardian with my heals.  Add in deflection and it won't be close

[Sheperd]

I'm telling you as long as your healers keep you warded there should not be a problem. 80% of tanking is the healers job. 20% is keeping the aggro.

[dalme]

just my 2 cents ...but coming from EQ1 playing a lvl 70 11k hp monk.....sitting through multiple nerfs to the class.....dmg / mitigation....we got stripped down to nothing....Here in the bruiser...I am reminded of my prenerf days when I could out tank any pally and alot of warriors.....

 

I have no trouble tanking at 21 with anything we have gone up against....Maybe Ive just had a good healer.....maybe not

 

Im quite happy with the class so far....If they make us better....sweet....If not...well I can live with the way I am now and not be upset in the least

[Mum]

Yah, you will tank just find if you have a shaman backing you up, the only problem I find in tanking is when there is a huge group of high lvl mobs, and they all want to get in your sweet spot (flanking you) other than that I am no more of a "power drain" on my healer than a guardian is when paired with a Cleric line healer... my only problem now is that I just hit 27 and my aoe taunt went grey...would love to know when we get another one hope its soon!-Tamaran Iksar Bruiser 27/ 10 scholar- AB