Defense concerns

[VettsVey]

Ok I know as Bruisers we avoid damage or redirect it other than taking it.  So far I have seen Shadowknights and Guardians taking way less damage in group encounters, than I do.  I am getting brutaly beaten to a pulp during just one encounter.  My Armor is all Orange con minus my helm which cons blue.  I use Brawlers Stance (App2) and Martial Focus (Adept 1).  My Parry and Deflection are maxed as well. My stat items are between white and blue con.  Where as my friends Guardian is all in blue to green Armor, and losing maybe 1 bar of health, and I am losing 3 or more.  Has anyone else encountered this, or give me some insight into what I may be doing wrong?  Postioning encounters or something....

 

Also, lack of aggro abilities mid-teens thru early 20's?

 

 

Message Edited by VettsVey on 11-26-2004 11:28 PM

[Jezekie]

A high agility is critical, you need to be using staggering stance, and preferebly agi buffs from Druids and or bards.

[benisbor]

Heh. This is not an issue of high agility. The Bruiser is significantly underpowered. Some severe, and I mean severe, class balancing needs to be instituted. It's not we can just go out and get some ring with +100 AGI or something. I'm in the same boat -- all of my gear is orange. I'm in about the best gear for my level that can be attained. Meanwhile, other Fighters 2 - 3 levels lower than me are tanking mobs with crappy gear and taking half the damage. It's ridiculous.

[VettsVey]

Glad I wasnt the only one seeing the problem here.  Its bad enough that the only 2 taunts we have up to mid 20's is Taunting slap and Shout.  To compansate for the lack of taunts we dual weild to create more aggro... well guess what, you also get slapped back by mobs riposte, along with thier normal attacks.  Does deflection and Parry even work?  Sure it says it increases....  but is it even effective vs the amount of damage these mobs dish out on our light armor defense rating?  I see Guardians with over 1.1k defense... while same level Bruisers have barely half that. 

 

Personnally I dont see deflection and parry abilities working as effectively as they should be.  

[TheBlackWi]

I think that we just accept the fact that we are going to be a preferred secondary tank, which really isn't so bad. We do very high damage for a fighter, and we don't tank nearly as well as a guardian. I really don't see the problem with that, and I like my class just the way it is to be completely honest. I've yet to have a priest tell me that I take way too much damage and that he can't heal me fast enough. Mabye that time will come, we will just have to see.

[Jezekie]

"I think that we just accept the fact that we are going to be a preferred secondary tank"Not really, I don't have problems tanking, and I don't see where these issues steam from.

[Windy]

I have no problems tanking either.  I avoid most attacks, do good damage, and take less damage than the scouts per hit, even though they have higher armor class.  It's been awhile since i've grouped with another tank, but i've never seen a tank that could hold a candle to me.  Thats not bluff and ego, thats just the way it is.  I've been primary tank in pretty much every party i've been in, and never had any sort of troubles.

[Oidan]

Go to your chat and disable all of the clutter like spells and other hits/misses, mobs misses etc. You will how much you dodge block etc.

[Moski]

lvl 26 Ogre Bruiser here

 

i dont have problems to tank up to yellow con 2ArrowUp mobs. But i need 2 healers to tank that. And my healers always hate to heal me because my tanking is depending on my skill-rolls.

 

i cannot prove this but i guess the way my tanking works is like that:

 

Mob_001 attacks me (makes a attack roll)

I_bruiser_001 tries to defend (i make a defense roll)

 

1.) My defense roll is higer than the attack roll of mob_001 = mob_001 misses

2.) My defense roll is lower than the attack roll of mob_001

     2.1) I try to parry/block the sucessfull attack of mob_001 so i roll my parry/block skill against the sucessful attack

            2.2) My parry/block roll is sucessull = i parry/block the attack and take no damage

            2.3) My parry/block roll is lower than the sucessfull attack from mob_001

                 2.3.1) I try to deflect some damage and so i make a deflection roll

                    2.3.2) My defelction roll is higer than the sucessfull attack from mob_001 = i avoid some damage

                    2.3.3) My defelction roll is lower = i take a lot of damage

 

And here is the Problem for me / my healer. There are some fights where i am very lucky and i manage to block/parry or deflect a lot of attacks against me.

But there are fights where i am not able to parry/block cause i have bad luck and have some bad rolls. In this case i take a few very hard hits and i my health goes down from 100% to 10% in about 2 or 3 hits. This is when my healer and i gets very nervous 

 

In comparison a plate/vanguard tank arent based on all the defensive/avoidance skill rolls. So they arent based on Luck. The Healer of a plate/vanguard tank gets the feeling when the tank needs a heal cause the HP-Loss of a plate/vanguard tank is more calculatable because the armor-mitigation works every time the plate/vanguard tank is hit.

 

 

Taunt: Up to lvl 23/24 i never had a problem with holding aggro. Since 24 its getting harder. I only have Taunting Slap (Single Taunt - deals no damage btw like the description says) and Jeer (Group Taunt - while the Targetet Mob of the Encounter is feared - does not work like the description btw )

The recast time of Jeer is like 30 sec. I always pull with Jeer. Heres the first "problem". If people do not know the Bruiser-Skills  they wonder why my target runs away. Its boring when the Pets of my group mates attack the fleeing/feared mob. I try to explain them that they have to wait till i changed my target - but they forget so fast

Next problem (real Problem for me): If the encounter lasts more than 30 sec i need to hold aggro and i have to re-use Jeer (i dont have another ae-taunt) and if i jeer again my target runs away because of fear effect. So i have to change target again. This is very anoying and i hope the next ae-taunt dont has that fear affect. (or they change jeer that 1 mob of the encounter is feared BUT NOT my target)

 

P.S. please dont blame my bad english - i am not a native speaker  

 

 

 

[Moski]

sorry double post

Message Edited by Moskito on 11-14-2004 02:05 AM

[Oidan]

That is interesting to say the least. So you use a fear spell to switch targets because our lack of ae taunt? I just wanted to clarify that. I just got Jeer and was thinking it was an oh bleep spell...everyone run. Is the taunt factor on Jeer decent?

[Moski]

i am using Jeer app III

 

the taunt aspect is ok - but its very very annoying that alwys the targettet mob is running away.

 

so if the fight lasts longer because u have a 4 or 5 mob encounter and u have to re-taunt to protect ur healer u have 2 options

 

1. Jeer and ur targeted mob (that has lost a lot of health at that time because ur group has targeted it) runs away and u have to pick another mob (at nearly full health at that time)

 

2. Change Target and Jeer (so that a mob at near full health runs away) and try to change back to the nearly dead mob. (that isnt as easy as it reads when u have a encounter with 4 or 5 mobs and ur group members need to know that u change targets nw and then to taunt)

[Oidan]

Ok, I got it now. Tks for the info.

[Roddy]

First off face it we are the emergency tanks. You get beated down when you try to save a life from teamates telling you your not a tank. But when their behinds are in trouble they want you to tank and hold hate, even if a "real tank" isnt around. For me i am about the name Bruiser. That means deal damage which i think we can do a better job off. Wait till you get to higher levels and get bob and weave accuracy down for mobs plus bruisers spirit which adds 1k ac to your armor . Wait till you get agi plus items like mad on all your armor. Weather its light or very light use it it helps. Use all your buffs also. Stun Stun Stun we get lots of those skills which will slow down the monster form laying the smack on you. Instead of just standing there like a normal tank it takes alot more effort on our part to stay standing. 4 hits of 400-500+ damage is not cool at all but eh what you gonna do about it. Get a guardian that can hold hate turn up intimidating orders and your consentration power ups and starting dealing the 170- 220 damage a hit on special moves if you can hit that hard. The only thing is for them to turn up bruisers damage a notch. Last thing the skill that we get which we attack from behind needs to be powerd up. All that effort to get behind the target and hit less than a normal attack in their face.... not cool. Well ive said enough time to get back to class. Later guys

[Ralid]

I do feel our defense needs some tweaking, im not 100% sure its working as it is meant to be.  Don't get me wrong im not a totally useless tank, but I do feel a little hard done by.

 

Something that I have noticed is that an NPCs special attacks, wild swing etc, never seem to be mitigated or dodged or whatever.  Now a plate tank would be able to mitigate some of this damage due to higher AC.  If i fight a mob that doesnt have the powerful specials they barely touch me.

 

Also it seems Scouts get everything, to a degree, they have high DPS, Medium Armor and by definition aim for high Agility.  Seems a little bit biased towards them.

 

I have tested this on various mobs over various levels.  Maybe its just me, im just not totally happy about the defence side of things.  However, im loving my Bruiser

 

My 2cp

[Papgn]

I honestly never saw a problem with Brawlers/Bruisers and their defence.  We wear light armor, and half the defence.  Makes sense considering we're not in Plate or Chain.  Even still, if I have two healers in the group...I can still Main Tank in a lot of situations...just not as well as a Plate wearing Fighter.

 

Guardians take beats, its what they do...they are built to stand there hold agro.  Why should Bruisers do high damage and still tank like a plate wearing fighter?  Makes no sense to me.  That doesn't mean Bruisers have no place in a group.  I still like to think I'm more than useful...

 

My normal group is: Guardian, Inquis, Bruiser, Wizard, Dirge, Another Healer type.

 

The Guardian Pulls and is the MT.  Dirge assists the guardian and they beat down the mob.  I will either assist if its a single mob encounter, or I will use Jeer to fear the toughest mob.  Fearing the hardest mob gives the group a chance to burn down a few of the easier mobs.  I'm 23 almost 24, and using my 5 damage dealing arts I can put out at least 500 damage pretty quick.  If we aren't done taking down the easier mobs, I wait for Jeer to refresh and I fear the mob again.  The longest I've noticed having to take the feared mobs beats is 10 seconds...then they are feared again.

 

If anything I find I have more options not HAVING to hold agro.  I can move around to do what needs to be done.  Be it fearing a mob, burning down a caster type mob, pealing mobs off the healer or casters etc.  With the future arts that increase your AC and other abilities...I would asume I could do even more.

 

Long story short, I love my Bruiser, and I can't imagine the class needing a huge overhall.

 

 

[runamonk]

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VettsVey wrote:

Glad I wasnt the only one seeing the problem here. Its bad enough that the only 2 taunts we have up to mid 20's is Taunting slap and Shout. To compansate for the lack of taunts we dual weild to create more aggro... well guess what, you also get slapped back by mobs riposte, along with thier normal attacks. Does deflection and Parry even work? Sure it says it increases.... but is it even effective vs the amount of damage these mobs dish out on our light armor defense rating? I see Guardians with over 1.1k defense... while same level Bruisers have barely half that.

Personnally I dont see deflection and parry abilities working as effectively as they should be.

---

Try standing behind the mob while fighting, you won't get hit by ripostes.

[VettsVey]

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runamonk wrote:

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VettsVey wrote:

Glad I wasnt the only one seeing the problem here. Its bad enough that the only 2 taunts we have up to mid 20's is Taunting slap and Shout. To compansate for the lack of taunts we dual weild to create more aggro... well guess what, you also get slapped back by mobs riposte, along with thier normal attacks. Does deflection and Parry even work? Sure it says it increases.... but is it even effective vs the amount of damage these mobs dish out on our light armor defense rating? I see Guardians with over 1.1k defense... while same level Bruisers have barely half that.

Personnally I dont see deflection and parry abilities working as effectively as they should be.

---

Try standing behind the mob while fighting, you won't get hit by ripostes.

---

 

Kinda hard to stand behind the mob to tank, and that ever so annoying "problem" where the NPC your fighting just so happens to be right where your standing ( not sure that has any effect as it is rare ). 

The NPC's special melee attacks do seem to hit, regardless.  Parry and deflection dont seem up to par.  Sure we can tank, hold aggro take hits...  but very few hits when it gets down to 224 per hit.  We are to be by nature balanced Fighters, doing thier core abilities. Hold aggro and take hits...  this is not possible. 

Tell you what... go to Nek Forest, find those solo blue con crabs on the beach.... tell me how you fair against them.  If you can survive the fight with more than 40% health, then parry and deflection have no problems.

[lordofdrago]

The purpose of a tank is to hold a mobs attention, to take the beating while the rest of the group lays it to rest. In groups of 4 to 6, we take on mobs that are MUCH tougher than use individually.Traditional, heavy armor tanks will, and should, always make the best tanks. They will get more often than we will but heavy plate should reduce the actual damage taken by a large amount. Heavy armor tank don’t plan on not getting hit, they plan on getting hit, surviving it and returning the favor. The heavy tanks should also have more hit points as well.As a Bruiser with no armor, we can't be surprised that we get beat badly in these circumstances. Our defense is based on avoiding blows. The problem in a large group is that we are not going to consistently avoid blows from mobs that have much higher attack skills than our defense skills. Our focus is NOT to be primary tank. We can off tank in a pinch, we can sometime intervene some damage of the primary tank to spread the damage and buy the primary more time between healing or intervene for the healer or casters. Our focus is to deal out melee damage. If we can deal out damage, help reduce the damage taken by others using stuns and knock downs or intervene some damage for some of the other group members, then we are doing our job. Balance is only a level 21 Bruiser, so I honestly don't know how well we fulfill our role in the medium and high end game but that’s I think how it should work.Balance Blackrain21 Half Elf Bruiser

[Neimhidh]

You know, I have seen all these complaints before....

 

Let me be the first Monk to welcome you all to the [Removed for Content] club...

[ganjookie]

Bruiser = HIGH DPS and taking alot of damage.We out damage normal tanks by about double, we just cant take what we give unfortunatley. I feel that this is working as intended, and have no problem with the currrent Bruiser makeup.

[VettsVey]

Ok thanks all for the insight.  Though I am still a bit peeved that the possiblity of being the MT in the higher end portion of the game, I do like just being DPS with the occasional duties of pulling and off-tanking.  LOL especially since I gotten Jeer...  best "Save the Priest" ability.  Cant create enough aggro, too low on HP to use Staggering Stance?  Fear em! =)   Then quickly use FD to let MT regain control =)

 

Definately more to us than I figured on. 

[benisbor]

Am I crazy, or is Shout being ignored? Everyone keeps talking about how Jeer is the only worthwhile thing they have as an AE taunt. Shout is an AE taunt just as Jeer is, and it actually works. I'm using Shout Adept 3 and one use in conjunction with the damage I'm already doing takes aggro off of anyone almost instantly.

 

 

 

[RDescha]

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benisbored wrote:

Heh. This is not an issue of high agility. The Bruiser is significantly underpowered. Some severe, and I mean severe, class balancing needs to be instituted. It's not we can just go out and get some ring with +100 AGI or something. I'm in the same boat -- all of my gear is orange. I'm in about the best gear for my level that can be attained. Meanwhile, other Fighters 2 - 3 levels lower than me are tanking mobs with crappy gear and taking half the damage. It's ridiculous.

---

Let's blame all our problems we have on the class, rather than ourselves, shall we? All your gear is orange, congratulations...Please see my response to your post...Long story short, you need to look at more than the color...

 

The way you look at everything so 1 dimensional probably contributes to why you're a horrible bruiser...After all the "arguments" I'm pretty sure that's just what it comes down to, you're the only one who seems to be having these problems...As well as letting us know about them...constantly...

 

And BALANCING? You know what game you're playing? I feel bruisers are fine the way they are, but if you're hoping for us to get even more powered, I'd say go make another class. SoE is more about nerfing than "balancing" if you haven't taken notice yet...

 

As far as bruisers go as a class...redistribute the blame is all I have to say.

[Icr]

The fact is all fighters are suppose to do the same job tanking. Those who said that they are happy as secondary tanks only, im happpy for you. However according to SoE we are suppose to tank as effeciantly as all other fighters. We need to have an increase in dmg and an increase in deflection skills. I know we wont get it, but currently we are a hybrid class of eq2. We cant tank like other fighters, but do better than scouts. We dont do as much dmg as scouts, but do more than other fighters. We are a mix of the 2. Therfor I dont see a place for us in a grp. Most of the time the only reason I get a grp is because there are no scouts LFG and they need DPS.

[Jezekie]

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Icrog wrote:

We need to have an increase in dmg and an increase in deflection skills

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Not really. We're alright where we are currently.As RDeschain pointed out, there's more to the gear then just con color, since they seem to have dropped the concept of higher con armor providing more mitigation, then lower con.Those of you who are happy being 2nd tanks, fine, if you want to be that. But don't try to push that down everyones throat with false ideas of how the class truely is. Or go moaning about how underpowered we truely are, when infact we're just fine as it is.

[Ripp]

I find the combination of 'Call to Arms' after the initial pull followed immediately by 'Shout' pretty much guaranteed me agro for the forseeable future of the fight.

 

Call to Arms works as a group buff and it's agro is pretty substantial.  I've even used it during the middle of a fight when my taunt(s) are down to pull back a mob that has taken an interest in the mage/cleric/etc...

 

/shrug

 

Your milage may vary - but I thought I'd throw it out there.

[Icr]

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Jezekiell wrote:

Those of you who are happy being 2nd tanks, fine, if you want to be that. But don't try to push that down everyones throat with false ideas of how the class truely is. Or go moaning about how underpowered we truely are, when infact we're just fine as it is.

---

How can we be fine if the majority of Bruisers cannot tank as well as other fighters. We should not have to spend more money on equipment with certain stats to just keep up with other fighters. Im not complaining, I love my bruiser and wouldnt place another fighter class, im just stateing the facts.

[benisbor]

I have to say, Rdeschain, you more are one of the rudest people I have met on these forums thus far. I have not attacked you in any way, nor have I insulted the skills of a single person here. If you feel somehow individually targeted by my dissatisfaction with the Bruiser, you must have some serious underlying insecurities yourself. After all, if you were truly so smug and complacent with your class, why would you go to all the trouble to be outwardly rude to me for no reason at all? In your most recent post you provided no constructive information for other readers, provided no analysis as to what you thought I might be doing wrong as a Bruiser—you simply told me that I was a bad Bruiser and looked at things one-dimensionally. Let me clarify a few things for you.

 

First, before you begin talking to me about the inclinations of Sony and their historical tradition of “nerfing” rather than balancing as if I’m some child who has never played eq1 before, hold your tongue. I played eq1 since day one, was in the Beta, and played a 65 Monk by the time I quit. I was there when Monks were AWFUL, and I was there when Verant improved the class significantly. So please, stop making baseless statements.

 

As for my performance as a Bruiser, why you assume that I’m completely ignorant of my abilities completely escapes me. Yes, I have orange gear (this is still true – and I’m now 30). And whenever I posted saying that I was not happy with our tanking ability, please note that I have been using ALL of my abilities – Marshall Focus, Brawler’s stance, and various stuns – in every tanking situation. Even with these abilities my tanking has been subpar compared to the Guardian. Jezekiall has had other experiences. In large part I have been fighting orange mobs with the group, which may explain things, but as I’ve said before, like-level plate classes have had no problem.

 

I look at nothing one-dimensionally. I realize that just having “orange gear” isn’t important. Obviously the skill of the player matters. However, let me be honest in telling you that it takes no genius to mash Brawler’s stance, so if you’re trying to infer something to the contrary you’re making a mistake.

 

People need to get something firmly, and I  mean firmly, into their heads: the Bruiser forum is set up not so that we can post happy threads about how wonderful our class is while we get out some Vaseline and do a double. These forums are for criticisms just as much as they are for helpful information such as quests, etc. If a person posts with something that he feels Sony needs to address, other readers need to stop feeling personally insulted. If you like your class, GREAT! More power to you. But since these forums are likely read by Devs, they are good forum for appeal and thus should not be cluttered by mindless character bashing and completely factless assaults on the quality of someone’s playskill.

 

It should be further understood that while I find some issues with the Bruiser not perfect, I still MUCH prefer it to every other class, so don’t instruct me to reroll. I love the fist-fighter, I love feign death – I love the aspect of one who uses his body as a tool to fight and I don’t like silly knights or spells (playing with them, anyway). That having been said, I think we should stop addressing Bruiser concerns, even if they are rants, with such hostility. Different players have different expectations and different receptions of gameplay.

[Drexel]

Icrog:   Where did they say once we choose our subclasses that we will all be able to be Main tanks?  What they said was, n the begining game, everyone would be the same, and you would have time to make your choices before choosing your final subclass.   You will never be albe to tank like a Guardian, SOE never intened you to be able to.  nor will you be as effective at it as a Warrior, or probably even the crusader classes.  HOWEVER, you will always be able to get agro in a pinch, you will always be doin gmore damage then the meatsheilds, and you will always have a chance FD your way out of a jam.  You signe don for all this stuff.  If all you wan tto do is stand in frm of a group of mobs and get hit, you chose poorly, don't blame the game designers for building a very well balanced class...at least so far at least.  We will see once we all start hitting th higher levels.

 

Drexell