Be honest, where are you on the parsings? [Archive] - Page 2

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 01:26 AM

Theres only afew abilities I feel need changing.. I wouldent give rangers such a boost as illu suggested.. He is a wizard, thats one of the ways he gets to top dps.. I would change the following..<b>1: Snaring shot.. This does 400-600 damage, at a 1s cast time - 10s recast(m1), this is nowhere near near a t1 dps ability.. This needs to be changed to the same damage as emberstrike (700-1200 damage, 0.5s cast time, 10s recast.)</b>2: I would change around some of our melee abilities to hold our own without melee auto attack being included, these abilities include.Shocking thrust (350ish-600 damage, 10s recast 0.5 cast) - changed to about 600-900 damageOur other melee abilities are about 400-800ish.. Im not going to comment on these because they are decent.3: I would half the cast time on snipers shot to 2.5 seconds, and possibly a 70 upgrade..4: Precise shot (and the assassins assailing blast) I would upgrade to 800-1200 damage total for m1.These are things id change in order, for those reading this its the #1 point I want to hit hard on.

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 01:27 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>lower the recast timer of snipershot to 45 seconds.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>15 minutes to 45 seconds seems a little extreme.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>but with one single change the ranger class goes from 2nd rate citizen to t1 dps. isnt' that what this thread is about?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think it's already been determined it wouldn't help as much as you think it would. It's the cast time of 5 seconds or whatever, not the recast. No need to go nuts and reduce the recast by 14 minutes.

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 01:29 AM

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] skratch, how is it you manage to post when I post? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

IllusiveThoughts

07-31-2006, 01:31 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>lower the recast timer of snipershot to 45 seconds.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>15 minutes to 45 seconds seems a little extreme.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>but with one single change the ranger class goes from 2nd rate citizen to t1 dps. isnt' that what this thread is about?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think it's already been determined it wouldn't help as much as you think it would. It's the cast time of 5 seconds or whatever, not the recast. No need to go nuts and reduce the recast by 14 minutes.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you would be suprised how much of a dps boost a single 10k nuke on a 5 second cast timer can boost your dps, or a 10k nuke on a 4 second cast timer (i'm speaking from experience here)

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 01:34 AM

You'd be surprised how much a dps boost a 10k crit Killing Blade can do on a 0.5 second cast, I'm speaking from experience. :smileytongue: That's why someone said Ranger's Blade was their best dps CA, it's their version of Killing Blade, and it's exactly the same. Low cast time, high damage.

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 01:35 AM

<div><blockquote>you would be suprised how much of a dps boost a single 10k nuke on a 5 second cast timer can boost your dps, or a 10k nuke on a 4 second cast timer (i'm speaking from experience here)<hr></blockquote>I dont mean any offense, but out of personal experiance of snipers shot... It breaks far to often, and im going to break something.. You will have rangers complaining over broken mice, laptops, computers, monitors, desks etc.. Any ae,taunt,damage shield, etc breaks it.. Wizards have focus to help them keep there ability going, anything and everything breaks stealth.. And, there are many bugs in the game as it is that breaks stealth.. Forinstance when a ranger sends out the hawk we cant stealth (well, when the bird attacks it breaks anyways)</div>

IllusiveThoughts

07-31-2006, 01:36 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> You'd be surprised how much a dps boost a 10k crit Killing Blade can do on a 0.5 second cast, I'm speaking from experience. :smileytongue: That's why someone said Ranger's Blade was their best dps CA, it's their version of Killing Blade, and it's exactly the same. Low cast time, high damage.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>rangers are the chain version of wizards.</P> <P>their cast timers on bow arts are even longer than our nukes. Its obvious that soe doesn't want them to be the burst dps that assasins are and more along the spike damage that wizards are.</P> <P>The change i've suggested would be in line with that. </P>

Scarrlette

07-31-2006, 01:45 AM

<P>I want to remind everyone to keep it on topic and to not let the venting get out of hand. I feel as though everyone should be allowed to express their thoughts, but people need to remember to keep it non-personal and mature.</P> <P>I'd hate to have to lock the thread and close discussions on this.</P>

IllusiveThoughts

07-31-2006, 01:48 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scarrlette wrote:<BR> <P>I want to remind everyone to keep it on topic and to not let the venting get out of hand. I feel as though everyone should be allowed to express their thoughts, but people need to remember to keep it non-personal and mature.</P> <P>I'd hate to have to lock the thread and close discussions on this.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I haven't seen any flaming going on on this page, just a healthy discussion about how to bring rangers up to where they should be with minimal effort by the devs.</P> <P>suggestions so far:</P> <P>reduce re-use timer of snipershot to 45s</P> <P>increase the dps on ranger blade</P> <P>provide additional aoe dps via changes to rain of arrows</P> <P>and these specific changes by LoreLady</P> <P><STRONG>1: Snaring shot.. This does 400-600 damage, at a 1s cast time - 10s recast(m1), this is nowhere near near a t1 dps ability.. This needs to be changed to the same damage as emberstrike (700-1200 damage, 0.5s cast time, 10s recast.)<BR><BR></STRONG>2: I would change around some of our melee abilities to hold our own without melee auto attack being included, these abilities include.<BR><BR>Shocking thrust (350ish-600 damage, 10s recast 0.5 cast) - changed to about 600-900 damage<BR><BR>Our other melee abilities are about 400-800ish.. Im not going to comment on these because they are decent.<BR><BR>3: I would half the cast time on snipers shot to 2.5 seconds, and possibly a 70 upgrade..<BR><BR>4: Precise shot (and the assassins assailing blast) I would upgrade to 800-1200 damage total for m1.<BR></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 01:49 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div>You'd be surprised how much a dps boost a 10k crit Killing Blade can do on a 0.5 second cast, I'm speaking from experience. :smileytongue: That's why someone said Ranger's Blade was their best dps CA, it's their version of Killing Blade, and it's exactly the same. Low cast time, high damage.<hr></blockquote>We dont get anything the same as killing blade, your thinking about <font face="Courier New">Eviscerate and rangers blade.'While you can compare killing blade to vield fire, vield fire does 4k damage (at 460ish str)and requires a 3s cast time, and a 1m 30s recast.. Killing blade does 6000-7000ish damage(going by memory please correct me if im wrong), at a 2 or 3 min recast...While, the damages are similar.. the amount of damage your able to spike from the two abilities are not.. You can only spike 1.5k dps from vield fire (top damage reg hit)and you can spike 6-7k dps from killing blade..Btw, I have been working on a spreadsheet showing the DPS diffrences in CA's.. and how much assassins can spike there damage compared to rangers.. But I am extreemly reluctant to put out any of this information that its extreemly unfair to assassins for being double to tripple the dps of all the rangers dps abilities.. At any interval.I dont want to post anything that is slanted so one way, even if I put all assassins abilities to 1s from 0.5s. It still becomes skewed.</font></div>

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 01:57 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>I'm in a great guild with great players that kill everything that has been killed in this game, and I am able to perform my job as I believe it is intended. I do solid tier 1 dps consistently over the course of a raid, without little to no chance of pulling aggro. I can siphon hate off of the assassins/brigands/whoever else in my group and make it just disappear, and drop a 30% hate buff on the MT every 30 seconds. In all honesty and humility I don't believe that the Ranger class sucks.<BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I recognize you are in a great guild and are a skilled ranger. What I don't get is why another skilled ranger in your guild and why the vast majority of the rest of the ranger seem to believe the opposite as you.</P> <P>I therefore stand on my theory.<BR></P>

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 01:59 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Scarrlette wrote:<div></div> <p>I want to remind everyone to keep it on topic and to not let the venting get out of hand. I feel as though everyone should be allowed to express their thoughts, but people need to remember to keep it non-personal and mature.</p> <p>I'd hate to have to lock the thread and close discussions on this.</p><hr></blockquote>If I hear another post from this mod.. Its her whos going to be getting nasty replies.. This discussion has been a LONG way from being overly offensive, or flamming.. There was one person who tried to derail the thread to monks.. However, when you get people like that.. They are GOING to be shot down..<hr size="2" width="100%"><p>"ol. Yeah, Smed is afraid of making Rangers uber. /eye_roll</p> <p>Locked since this isn't even remotely a constructive thread."</p><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>If its your job to read the fourms, how about reading some of my posts? Maybe the gap pt 1, or pt 2. Or, how about the combat disccusion.. Take a look at what classes are saying what.. I would also like to mention that dissolusion has had most of the world firsts as far as raid mobs go..</p></div>

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 02:02 AM

Ok then, Veiled Fire, same difference. You get half the damage on half the timer. It's just the cast time.

xMiLoSiSx

07-31-2006, 02:02 AM

<DIV>I average around 1300 raid zones and can usually push around 1500, that's alright with me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I see most half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] rangers have issues pushing above 1250. But lets stick to parses, not fixes. The title of the thread directs us to do so.</DIV>

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 02:13 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div>Ok then, Veiled Fire, same difference. You get half the damage on half the timer. It's just the cast time.<hr></blockquote>All these little things are why assassins can peak 2k, and rangers can peak 1.6kish.. 3s on 4k = 1.5kish.. 1s to 6-7kish = 6-7kish spike (rounding the cast time to1s so im not saying numbers like 15kdps and have everyone jump out at me)On a side note.. I would rather see my class do sustained damage.. Meaning, if an assassin is going all over the place with 1.5k dps to 2.3k dps.. I would not mind being at lets say 1.8k dps consistantly.. Unfortunatly, this is not the case.. Assassins are pretty consistant in there damage, and so are rangers.</div>

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 02:14 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR>you would be suprised how much of a dps boost a single 10k nuke on a 5 second cast timer can boost your dps, or a 10k nuke on a 4 second cast timer (i'm speaking from experience here)<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know you mean well,but quite frankly the difference between sniper shot and something like ice comet is night and day, it requires stealth, has a minimum distance and if it misses or is parried, blocked or dodged is useless,</P> <P>On paper it seems easy, but from real world gameplay getting off a sniper shot is a lot harder than it sounds, their are tons of different things that break stealth and if you count the stealth timer, it takes 6 seconds to use if your using surveillance to stealth, or a little less if you use longblade. Regardless Longblade requires close proximity and means the likelyness of steath breaking is even higher.</P> <P>45 Second Sniper Shot is not the answer at all to the ranger issue. The skill could use improvement for sure, a 2.5 or 3 second cast time would go a long way to making it better.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think a small upgrade in the Ranger Bread and Butter Skills (Leg Shot, Precise shot). Along with slightly lower cast times would go a long way, </P> <P> </P>

Pins

07-31-2006, 02:18 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scarrlette wrote:<BR> <P>I want to remind everyone to keep it on topic and to not let the venting get out of hand. I feel as though everyone should be allowed to express their thoughts, but people need to remember to keep it non-personal and mature.</P> <P>I'd hate to have to lock the thread and close discussions on this.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If I hear another post from this mod.. Its her whos going to be getting nasty replies.. This discussion has been a LONG way from being overly offensive, or flamming.. There was one person who tried to derail the thread to monks.. However, when you get people like that.. They are GOING to be shot down..<BR><BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <BR> <P>"ol. Yeah, Smed is afraid of making Rangers uber. /eye_roll</P> <P> </P> <P>Locked since this isn't even remotely a constructive thread."</P> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> <P>If its your job to read the fourms, how about reading some of my posts? Maybe the gap pt 1, or pt 2. Or, how about the combat disccusion.. Take a look at what classes are saying what.. I would also like to mention that dissolusion has had most of the world firsts as far as raid mobs go..</P><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, it was getting a bit heated between Malignx and Gaige. Thus, the mods should have stepped in between those 2.

Sirlutt

07-31-2006, 02:26 AM

I have the solution for Rangers.<img src="http://static.flickr.com/46/119946601_09f19d80b3_m.jpg">Seems to be what most rangers want.. they want awesome DPs and not have to do too much to get it. There are Rangers who parse just fine in Raids, so maybe this is the answer for everyone else <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 02:28 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>I have the solution for Rangers.<BR><BR><IMG src="http://static.flickr.com/46/119946601_09f19d80b3_m.jpg"><BR><BR>Seems to be what most rangers want.. they want awesome DPs and not have to do too much to get it. <BR><BR>There are Rangers who parse just fine in Raids, so maybe this is the answer for everyone else <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Glad you added so much to the conversation, please go troll the assassin boards if you don't have anything constructive to add.

xMiLoSiSx

07-31-2006, 02:33 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR>I have the solution for Rangers.<BR><BR><IMG src="http://static.flickr.com/46/119946601_09f19d80b3_m.jpg"><BR><BR>Seems to be what most rangers want.. they want awesome DPs and not have to do too much to get it. <BR><BR>There are Rangers who parse just fine in Raids, so maybe this is the answer for everyone else <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Glad you added so much to the conversation, please go troll the assassin boards if you don't have anything constructive to add.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, he's right. There are too many whiners on these forums.<BR>

Scarrlette

07-31-2006, 02:39 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scarrlette wrote:<BR> <P>I want to remind everyone to keep it on topic and to not let the venting get out of hand. I feel as though everyone should be allowed to express their thoughts, but people need to remember to keep it non-personal and mature.</P> <P>I'd hate to have to lock the thread and close discussions on this.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If I hear another post from this mod.. Its her whos going to be getting nasty replies.. This discussion has been a LONG way from being overly offensive, or flamming.. There was one person who tried to derail the thread to monks.. However, when you get people like that.. They are GOING to be shot down..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>My post was in reference to 2 posters getting a little off topic and personal. I don't believe my warning was heavy handed.</FONT><BR><BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P>"ol. Yeah, Smed is afraid of making Rangers uber. /eye_roll</P> <P> </P> <P>Locked since this isn't even remotely a constructive thread."</P> <DIV> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> </DIV> <P>If its your job to read the fourms, how about reading some of my posts? Maybe the gap pt 1, or pt 2. Or, how about the combat disccusion.. Take a look at what classes are saying what.. I would also like to mention that dissolusion has had most of the world firsts as far as raid mobs go..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>lol. I do read the forums. A lot in fact. I'm not a developer, I have zero say in what happens there. I'm simply here to police the forums.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

damahra

07-31-2006, 03:09 AM

in that case then, why not just simply address those 2 in particular, instead of obvious sarcasm that seemed directed to all the rangers on the rangers board? policing forums, fine, but the comment on "yeah smed wants to make rangers uber /roll eyes, was in my eyes, just as inappropriate as the policing you are supposedly supposed to be doing.

Sirlutt

07-31-2006, 03:24 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>damahra wrote:<div></div>in that case then, why not just simply address those 2 in particular, instead of obvious sarcasm that seemed directed to all the rangers on the rangers board? policing forums, fine, but the comment on "yeah smed wants to make rangers uber /roll eyes, was in my eyes, just as inappropriate as the policing you are supposedly supposed to be doing.<hr></blockquote>I thought it was wholly appropriate.</div>

Scarrlette

07-31-2006, 04:17 AM

If anyone has issues with how I mod, you may feel free to contact Raijinn. Otherwise, I realize I won't always be Miss Popular, but I do things as I see fit, and try to do the best I can.

EomerFarst

07-31-2006, 05:03 AM

<P>From past raid experience I seem to average out at around 600 DPS. But I only have 2 Relic pieces and 2 other fabled items.<BR>I have Primal Agility M1 with most my bow CA's at M1 or ad 3 and use Grizfazzles Bow at present. My agiity line is 8/8/4/8/1 with my last points going into intell so I can poison debuff.</P> <P>Another ranger in our guild often is in the top 3 DPS parsing but he has Wurm Destroyer bow and alot more strength than my ranger. I've seen him him 1200 DPS in raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So I guess where you parse in raids come down to how you have build your character and it is very situational.</P>

BSbon

07-31-2006, 06:19 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV>just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it's the parsers. they are very situational. i had a post somewhere on these boards listing all the problems with parsing. dont trust them and never will.

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 06:34 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV>just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it's the parsers. they are very situational. i had a post somewhere on these boards listing all the problems with parsing. dont trust them and never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If the person parsing knows how to do it, they work perfectly. Its just a matter of knowing what your doing.<BR>

BSbon

07-31-2006, 06:45 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV>just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it's the parsers. they are very situational. i had a post somewhere on these boards listing all the problems with parsing. dont trust them and never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If the person parsing knows how to do it, they work perfectly. Its just a matter of knowing what your doing.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>using the parser is not the problem. the parser itself is the problem. here are some responces i gave to someone looking to start parsing. these are from a different thread.</P> <P>i went through a parsing phase awhile ago and discovered a very important thing to note. parsing does not take into account situation. a parser does not take into account lag, bad positioning of the mob (unable to see the mob so you cant attack it), higher levels of the other players in your group, the gear of each member or spell quality. it doesn't care if people all dont start fighting at the same time. it doesn't care if the summoner is actually hitting 3 mobs in the encounter while you're hitting just 1. all parsing needs to be taken with a grain of salt. 1 parse is not statistically useful but hundreds or thousands of parses will provide you with some useful information about your DPS. my advise is to try a different tactic each night and try to see if it helps you. </P> <P>i'm glad you actually read that and took it into advisement. i see posts about parsing and everyone says how great it is and how classes compare to each other but few people post the "down sides" to parsing. you'll also want to keep an eye on misses as well because that is lost DPS. i once saw a parse where a wizard over the course of a night trounced a ranger. the poster included the full log of what hit and for how much and the misses. the ranger missed like 4000 times and the wizard missed fewer than 100. misses get averaged in as a 0 and really hurt your DPS. I questioned the poster on the type of mobs and what color they coned but he never responded. parses provide the raw data. it's the people that interperate them that makes that data useful. </P>

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 06:58 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV>just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:20 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it's the parsers. they are very situational. i had a post somewhere on these boards listing all the problems with parsing. dont trust them and never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If the person parsing knows how to do it, they work perfectly. <STRONG> Its just a matter of knowing what your doing</STRONG>.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> parses provide the raw data. <STRONG>it's the people that interperate them that makes that data useful.</STRONG><EM> </EM></P><BR> <HR> <BR>Isn't that exactly what Ishbu said?</BLOCKQUOTE>

BSbon

07-31-2006, 07:07 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bongotez wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Teksun wrote:<BR> <DIV>just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Teksun on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>11:20 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it's the parsers. they are very situational. i had a post somewhere on these boards listing all the problems with parsing. dont trust them and never will.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If the person parsing knows how to do it, they work perfectly. <STRONG> Its just a matter of knowing what your doing</STRONG>.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> parses provide the raw data. <STRONG>it's the people that interperate them that makes that data useful.</STRONG><EM> </EM></P><BR> <HR> <BR>Isn't that exactly what Ishbu said?</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>his post said nothing about interperating data. what i got from his post is that parsers work fine provided you know how to use the program. <BR>

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 07:12 AM

<P>To me, and I'm sure most people that parse, "knowing what you're doing" entails knowing how to interpret data :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I'll take it a step further and say that people that know what they're doing also will be able to differentiate from bad dps due to bad group setup, bad positioning, etc. Or if that player just isn't as adept at playing his class as another person is.</P>

Carna

07-31-2006, 07:32 AM

<div></div>There are several Ranger in this thread agreeing with Lockeye's conclusions... there are several Rangers in the forum agreeing with his view. Each time this issue arises they get dismissed.We have a couple of possibilities here...<ol><li>The devs serverwide logs and/or parsers are broken, masking the real situation.</li><li>Lockeye is lying, and is keeping the Ranger down as part of his agenda for global domination.</li><li>Rangers are doing T1 dps, and are working as intended.</li></ol>Now I think #2 is highly unlikely... I'd suggest that those who hold with Lockeye persuing a nefarious agenda form another so that this issue can get the attention it deserves.I'd suggest we ask Lockeye to confirm his data to assure it's accurate from the basis that it might not be as it conflicts with a lot of reported experience.I'd remind people that there are Rangers that are confident that they are T1 dps.... I remember when those Assassins who were assuring the Assassin community that they could top parses were shouted down, marginalised, discredited and called outright liars... until the Assassin community realised there were Assassins topping the parses. There are Assassins in this thread who took part in that debate. There were a lot of crap Assassins at the time convinced they were skillfull players... I'm not suggesting that is the case here. I'm merely suggesting people be mindful that it could be the case here.What we do have is two clear perceptions.... Lockeye from data and experience who claims Rangers are right were they should be, and a handful of Rangers who actually agree with him... a sizable chunk of Rangers certainly on this forum who claim from data and experience that Rangers suck, and their guildmates who agree with them.We just need to determine now who's right. This is a step forward as we now have a crystal clear position from the devs and their reasoning for that position. I suggest people work from there and quit with the distractions.<div></div>

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 08:14 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR> There are several Ranger in this thread agreeing with Lockeye's conclusions... there are several Rangers in the forum agreeing with his view. Each time this issue arises they get dismissed.<BR><BR>We have a couple of possibilities here...<BR><BR> <OL> <LI>The devs serverwide logs and/or parsers are broken, masking the real situation.</LI> <LI>Lockeye is lying, and is keeping the Ranger down as part of his agenda for global domination.</LI> <LI>Rangers are doing T1 dps, and are working as intended.</LI></OL><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lockeye is an honorable person, and believes what he posts, otherwise he wouldn't post it.</P> <P>So we can just throw out number two, and concentrate on #1 or #3. Well, we can't concentrate on #1 really, since we have no clue what data Lockeye used to form his opinion, although I suspect it is a class average of people soloing, grouped, and raiding, all lumped together by class and level.</P> <P>So how about we just talk about #3. Rangers are doing T1 dps? In what guilds, and what environment?</P> <P>Let's look at a few random parses from my guild in Lyceum today.</P> <P>This first parse shows the top three parsers for all encounters we did while clearing the zone:</P> <P><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~elleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></P> <P>Parser #1 is a conjuror. Parser #2 is a necro. Parser #3 is a berzerker. Do you seriously suggest that a ranger can parse this high in a parse for a full lyceum clearing, where other classes are trying to max their damage?</P> <P>This second parse shows the top three parsers, but just on the Vilucidae boss mob encounter:</P> <P><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~elleffgee/vilucidae.jpg"></P> <P>Parser # 1 is a necro. Parser # 2 is a conjuror. Parser #3 is the named mob itself. I don't believe the devs necessarily know what some classes are capable of doing when played by top players. I say that based on what Lockeye wrote above: "In none of the categories does a Conjuror, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages." Well, they darn sure outrank them in the parses above, which include (1) a full T7 epic zone clearing, and (2) the boss mob encounter of that zone. I'm saying it isn't possible for any ranger in EQ2 to parse higher than the amounts shown above under the same circumstances: (1) Lyceum clearing and/or (2) just Vilucidae.</P> <P>Want me to shut up, or prove me wrong? Show me a ranger parsing higher than Vilucidae, in a regular raid.<BR></P>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 08:20 AM

And I died on vilucidae <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 08:24 AM

Was wondering why Nooch pwned you =p

Lockeye

07-31-2006, 08:31 AM

<div></div><div></div>A guild that chooses not to invite Rangers on their raids because they claim that Rangers as a class (and not the individual player) deal less DPS could become trapped in a self-fulfilling prophecy that they could not ever prove theirselves wrong.I raided this weekend and using a local parser and the Ranger in the raid used their parser. After each fight, there were variations in the amount of damage recorded. There are all kinds of factors that go into which data gets parsed and how, that these parsers are a great tool to measure overall how well players DPS, but it is never 100% accurate. Local parser results can vary due to distance and lag. Many times, the Ranger’s parses of their own performance were higher than what my parser indicated, sometimes by over 100 DPS in favor of the Ranger on their own parse. On this thread, there’s a post of the zone dps of a raid in Halls of Seeing that you can use as a comparison, although with the varied raid composition, group configurations, player skill, equipment, spell upgrades, spell reuse timers, and parser unreliability, in the end you’re really only comparing apples and oranges. Rangers happen to do well very consistently in single target, multiple target, and area effect avoidance encounters, that some classes can vary wildly on. Take the following Halls of Seeing raid I went on with a grain of salt, as should all local parse results:<u>A sentry of the hoard:</u>Allies: (01:02) 1065654 | 17187.97 [Wizard-Fusion-16043]Ranger 98899 | 1595.15Assassin 89273 | 1439.89Wizard 86684 | 1398.13Conjurer 81984 | 1322.32Wizard 69584 | 1122.32Coercer 64699 | 1043.53Warlock 64390 | 1038.55Troubador 56281 | 907.76Allies: (01:16) 1062808 | 13984.32 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14367]Ranger 125104 | 1646.11Assassin 84289 | 1109.07Conjurer 81943 | 1078.20Warlock 73808 | 971.16Berserker 68930 | 906.97Wizard 68715 | 904.14Brigand 66286 | 872.18Troubador 61369 | 807.49<u>A sentry of seeing:</u>Allies: (01:00) 961413 | 16023.55 [Assassin-Decapitate-23925]Ranger 84013 | 1400.22Assassin 76236 | 1270.60Conjurer 74565 | 1242.75Wizard 60945 | 1015.75Brigand 60904 | 1015.07Wizard 56148 | 935.80Berserker 53958 | 899.30Warlock 51909 | 865.15<u>A triumphant visionary:</u>Allies: (01:30) 1204583 | 13384.26 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14777]Wizard 116389 | 1293.21Ranger 115193 | 1279.92Wizard 86867 | 965.19Assassin 78485 | 872.06Conjurer 77769 | 864.10Berserker 75227 | 835.86Coercer 72926 | 810.29Warlock 72369 | 804.10Allies: (01:33) 1205959 | 12967.30 [Wizard-Ice Nova-12794]Ranger 127786 | 1374.04Wizard 111869 | 1202.89Conjurer 105650 | 1136.02Wizard 95347 | 1025.24Brigand 92420 | 993.76Swashbuckler 81812 | 879.70Berserker 69027 | 742.23Coercer 68984 | 741.76<u>An exultant seer:</u>Allies: (01:26) 1159431 | 13481.76 [Wizard-Ice Nova-18317]Ranger 120591 | 1402.22Assassin 101680 | 1182.33Conjurer 100251 | 1165.71Brigand 86613 | 1007.13Wizard 77457 | 900.66Coercer 75980 | 883.49Bruiser 72407 | 841.94Troubador 69694 | 810.40<u>A shadowy construct:</u>Allies: (01:1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1205657 | 15457.14 [Wizard-Ice Nova-11456]Conjurer 117422 | 1505.41Ranger 115098 | 1475.62Assassin 96578 | 1238.18Brigand 87078 | 1116.39Wizard 81082 | 1039.51Warlock 76100 | 975.64Wizard 74491 | 955.01Swashbuckler 72507 | 929.58<b>Named Encounters:</b><u>A Shadowy Presence:</u>Allies: (02:44) 2050095 | 12500.58 [Assassin-Decapitate-15410]Ranger 229596 | 1399.98Conjurer 190418 | 1161.09Assassin 168050 | 1024.70Brigand 167862 | 1023.55Wizard 155020 | 945.24Berserker 128529 | 783.71Troubador 117440 | 716.10Wizard 116128 | 708.10<u>The Overlord of Captivity:</u>Allies: (04:07) 2831204 | 11462.36 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14670]Ranger 342797 | 1387.84Assassin 271019 | 1097.24Brigand 220264 | 891.76Troubador 196234 | 794.47Wizard 186107 | 753.47Bruiser 182173 | 737.54Conjurer 180999 | 732.79Coercer 165533 | 670.17<u>A Charged Presence:</u>Allies: (02:51) 2113375 | 12358.92 [Wizard-Ice Nova-12620]Ranger 235456 | 1376.94Brigand 183285 | 1071.84Assassin 178073 | 1041.36Bruiser 172754 | 1010.26Conjurer 166484 | 973.59Wizard 152688 | 892.91Berserker 134630 | 787.31Troubador 132866 | 776.99I wouldn’t use these local parses or any parsers posted in this thread to determine class balance. Going by the server data, I still cannot find any evidence that Rangers are nothing short of a top DPS performing class that would warrant a balance change granting them additional damage. Note that I used the server data before to measure the amount of DPS imbalance that Rangers had during the proc-delay changes and made the necessary changes in the next update to bring their DPS up based on that data.<p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:22 PM</span>

xMiLoSiSx

07-31-2006, 08:44 AM

<DIV>Group setup plays a large part of his DPS, so were the raids buffs centered on the ranger?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That looks like a ranger who had himself a large DPS % increase with some fury buffs, if you were to ask me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least be fair and say what his grouping was.</DIV>

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 08:54 AM

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 08:59 AM

<DIV>All I am getting out of those parses is that the ranger in that raid is probably a good player who knows their class. They had a group set up for them or around them so they had a good mix of stat buffs, procs and dps/haste. On top of that, the other dps classes in the raid are severely slacking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am going to bet that most of the melee dps do not have t7 fabled weapons. My swashbuckler does and he auto attacks for numbs similar to what your seeing there. Throw in some combat arts and he easily breaks 1k dps. Can we please not balance classes on what an under equipped one can do but instead on what it is possible for the class to do? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW Im going to assume the conjuror on those parses doesnt include their pet. If it does, have them send me a tell and Ill work with them to up that dps considerably.</DIV>

TaleraRis

07-31-2006, 09:02 AM

<blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:<div></div><ol><li>The devs serverwide logs and/or parsers are broken, masking the real situation.</li><li>Lockeye is lying, and is keeping the Ranger down as part of his agenda for global domination.</li><li>Rangers are doing T1 dps, and are working as intended.</li></ol><div></div><hr></blockquote>There's also the possibility of #4, that the way the data is being gathered and compared is using too broad of a brush. Soloing and grouping rangers are doing just fine in terms of DPS. It's in raiding that the problem seems to be. I could see where Lockeye is looking more at the overall picture and not seeing the problem that only comes up in a single playstyle.<div></div>

Snarks

07-31-2006, 09:05 AM

well its comforting knowing that according to your 'hard data' that your rogues do 900 dps that ill never get nerfed... <div></div>

USAFJeeper

07-31-2006, 09:05 AM

<DIV>I am sorry Lockeye. I have played a ranger since day 1 and I have never even approached those numbers much less led the raid when there were assassins, swashbucklers, conjurers, and necros along. Wizards too for that matter. I guess I just suck. I worked my butt off tonight in Deathtoll and could only get my average up to 900s, and thats in a group that the raid leader tried to set up to enable me to get better DPS. I am in a "casual" raiding guild, born out of a hardcore raiding guild in EQ1. We know what we are doing and are doing pretty well for a three day a week raid force.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am almost all left side fabled gear, right side is legendary at worst. I am almost fully mastered, I am Achievement AGI and INT. I use good poisons and the sweet spot for rangers. Still I suck. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I slowly slip down the DPS charts for my guild, I am going to enjoy my alts and one day I will make that decision whether to keep raiding the ranger or swap to an alt.</DIV>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 09:08 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am sorry Lockeye. I have played a ranger since day 1 and I have never even approached those numbers much less led the raid when there were assassins, swashbucklers, conjurers, and necros along. Wizards too for that matter. I guess I just suck. I worked my butt off tonight in Deathtoll and could only get my average up to 900s, and thats in a group that the raid leader tried to set up to enable me to get better DPS. I am in a "casual" raiding guild, born out of a hardcore raiding guild in EQ1. We know what we are doing and are doing pretty well for a three day a week raid force.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am almost all left side fabled gear, right side is legendary at worst. I am almost fully mastered, I am Achievement AGI and INT. I use good poisons and the sweet spot for rangers. Still I suck. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I slowly slip down the DPS charts for my guild, I am going to enjoy my alts and one day I will make that decision whether to keep raiding the ranger or swap to an alt.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ive definitly seen rangers hit those numbers. Those are about as good as it gets for a ranger though. They dont get much better than that. Meanwhile all those other classes can do much better.</P>

Victicu

07-31-2006, 09:14 AM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div><u>The Overlord of Captivity:</u>Allies: (04:07) 2831204 | 11462.36 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14670]Ranger 342797 | 1387.84Assassin 271019 | 1097.24Brigand 220264 | 891.76<font color="#ff0000"><b>Troubador 196234 | 794.47</b></font>Wizard 186107 | 753.47Bruiser 182173 | 737.54Conjurer 180999 | 732.79Coercer 165533 | 670.17<u>A Charged Presence:</u>Allies: (04:07) 2831204 | 11462.36 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14670]Ranger 342797 | 1387.84Assassin 271019 | 1097.24Brigand 220264 | 891.76<font color="#ff0000"><b>Troubador 196234 | 794.47</b></font>Wizard 186107 | 753.47Bruiser 182173 | 737.54Conjurer 180999 | 732.79Coercer 165533 | 670.17I<hr></blockquote>i'd just like to point out those two of lockeyes parses... and the fact that the troub did more DPS than the conj wizard and bruiser... seems alot of your dps'ers are slackingand looking at those two closer, they are the exact same fight lol... looks like lockeye got a copy/paste messed up.</div><p>Message Edited by Victicus7 on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 PM</span>

Lockeye

07-31-2006, 09:14 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Ive definitly seen rangers hit those numbers. Those are about as good as it gets for a ranger though.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>It gets even better when raiding Lyceum or Labs with the Draconic Bow.</div>

USAFJeeper

07-31-2006, 09:15 AM

<DIV>I agree there Ish, and we dont agree often haha. The assassins in my guild frequently approach 2k on most mobs. The conjurers even teh 2 box ones are better than his regularly. One of the top DPsers in our guild is the swash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know a large part of my problem is that I dont have the best bow, I am still using grizz, because no bowas will drop for us. I grabbed the Ichor bow to have a ready supply of arrows but it sucks as a weapon even to the Grizz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 09:16 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Ive definitly seen rangers hit those numbers. Those are about as good as it gets for a ranger though.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It gets even better when raiding Lyceum or Labs with the Draconic Bow.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Look back one page in this thread. My combined parse for all of lyceum was just under 1900dps. Im a conjuror. There is no way in hell that ranger even with that bow will do that. Not a chance.

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 09:17 AM

<DIV>We're doing DT tommorow will post the parses. Stay tuned. I gotta hand it to lockeye though for putting his money where his mouth is and posting some numbers.</DIV>

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 09:18 AM

TaleraRis

07-31-2006, 09:19 AM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Ive definitly seen rangers hit those numbers. Those are about as good as it gets for a ranger though.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>It gets even better when raiding Lyceum or Labs with the Draconic Bow.</div><hr></blockquote>I'm no raiding ranger, so I hope this isn't taken in a challenging manner or a confrontational manner. But I think your numbers given might be a bit more accepted if information on group setup, gear and spell upgrades were provided. There's a very large discrepancy between your numbers and the numbers given by many that are highly respected as "In the know" rangers on these forums. Even if we do find that your numbers are entirely accurate, we might be able to explain the discrepany by determining where the differences are in those three areas. AA lines and stats are also important. What sort of strength does this ranger have? What AA lines did they take? How far into each?<div></div><p>Message Edited by TaleraRis on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:23 AM</span>

Jayad

07-31-2006, 09:19 AM

<P>Lockeye, thanks for keeping up the responds <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I wonder if there's a way we could get Lockeye or one of the other devs/skilled players to get a buffed ranger in on a Dissolution raid or something? To test it out. Just tossing an idea around.</P>

Gertack_v2

07-31-2006, 09:22 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><blockquote>Ive definitly seen rangers hit those numbers. Those are about as good as it gets for a ranger though.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>It gets even better when raiding Lyceum or Labs with the Draconic Bow.</div><hr></blockquote>Makes me think Lockeye is the ranger. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 09:23 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gertack wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Ive definitly seen rangers hit those numbers. Those are about as good as it gets for a ranger though.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It gets even better when raiding Lyceum or Labs with the Draconic Bow.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Makes me think Lockeye is the ranger. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm guessing Brigand <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 09:24 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <DIV>I gotta hand it to lockeye though for putting his money where his mouth is and posting some numbers.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, with as much noise as some of us make, I gotta respect him for openly and honestly addressing the issue.<BR>

hoosierdaddy

07-31-2006, 09:30 AM

<P>More than anything these parses prove, yet again, that sorcerors need some love in the dps department. When they are consistently being outdamaged by Brigands, Necros, and Zerkers, something is fundamentally flawed. Why would anyone choose to forego plate/chain mitigation/Ae immunity/tracking/evac/safefall to be outdamaged by classes who enjoy these benefits.</P> <P>Of course, people playing these classes won't see anything wrong with this imbalance, but it definitely still exists. As it stands, an optimal raid consists of 3 tanks/6healers/15 brigands. Think about how much mana would be saved in only having to heal the tanks. Actually, a raid might not even need tanks. On Unrest, a brigand has tanked Tarinax, Keeper of Leadership, etc.</P> <P>This is just further evidence of melee mudflation, where developers equip scout classes with so many more means of improving their dps by means of haste/dps/procs that pure casters (those without overpowered pets) cannot even hope to keep up. Of all people, the developer who posted above should notice this discrepancy in dps between *T1* dps classes (whatever that means, anymore).</P> <P>Not to mention a sorceror cannot even begin to reach their full damage potential without a troubador in the their group, Amends, and a lucky rabbit's foot. Assassins conveniently dump the majority of their aggro onto others, and brigands slip, while all scout classes except bards have some form of passive anti-hate. Sorcerors have to take the greatest amount of risk of any class in order to approach the dps of other classes who have no problems with drawing aggro.</P> <P>Unless they're looked into, I see sorcerors fast becoming obsolete. Most in my guild have already rerolled brigands/assassins with the idea in mind that *if you can't beat em, join em.* The last LU adjusted absol;utely nothing in the way of combat, even though we all still know conjurors are way overpowered. LU 26 looks similarly grim, as it still nowhere addresses this imbalance. Guess I'll have to wait another 12-18 months for developers to review their logs and see the imbalances that are pointed out by players every single day on these boards.</P> <P>-Kai</P>

Lockeye

07-31-2006, 09:42 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Look back one page in this thread. My combined parse for all of lyceum was just under 1900dps. Im a conjuror. <hr></blockquote>Do you want a cookie?</div>

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 09:43 AM

<DIV>I do! :smileyhappy:</DIV>

ProphecyCT

07-31-2006, 09:45 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Look back one page in this thread. My combined parse for all of lyceum was just under 1900dps. Im a conjuror. <hr></blockquote>Do you want a cookie?</div><hr></blockquote>If it's a Jumjum snap cookie!</div>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 09:45 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR>Look back one page in this thread. My combined parse for all of lyceum was just under 1900dps. Im a conjuror. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you want a cookie?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What I am saying is we need to balance from the top end. There is no way in hell a ranger will beat me there. That means rangers need a boost up because I bring a hell of a lot more to a group than they do. </P> <P>Why would I ever want to bring a ranger there if I could bring a conjuror instead?</P>

ProphecyCT

07-31-2006, 09:46 AM

Why do i have a feeling that a few Developers has a dart board with Ishbu's character face on it ? =P<div></div>

USAFJeeper

07-31-2006, 09:49 AM

<DIV>At least rangers keep their whining to their boards! Bye now!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Snarks

07-31-2006, 09:51 AM

actually I take my previous comment back, 900 dps for a tank-specced-brigand is very nice truth be told this is a very complicated situation where many rangers feel undervalued and many others argue. It's pretty obvious that a range is not fun to play for most people I have encountered. In t6 they were fun because they did extroardinary dps. but now with conjurers and even berzerkers reaching 1700+ on parses much more often than a ranger, they have to question their purpose. rangers offer the least utility, buffs, debuffs, of any class in the game. Sure they may do what you consider appropriate DPS, but with so little going for them, they should be the highest dps in the game, period. When they are regularly beat by classes who do have utility, theres a serious problem. looking at parses which are subjective at best is not going to offer any solution. rangers need something going for them, and right now, they dont. which, for most people, makes them a very boring class. Especially raiders, who like to feel like they are contributing to a greater whole. <div></div>

Vorham

07-31-2006, 09:59 AM

yeah right... sorcs wont be obsoletethey're always at the top of our parses, plus they got power dumpspower transfers... yeah i played a necro in EQ1 so I know how much it sucks to twitch but if I had a nickel where that transfer came thru on long hard fights.... yeah i know its not dmg, but it keeps the raid going far past its fail point... lord knows i had to twitch [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] a few times in EQ1... if thats not utility i dunno what is... my bruisers FD if we wipe? /shrugmaybe they got the right setup for melee I dunno... I see a 1400dps bruiser parse which is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high.. overlord must be tanked and adds owned by AEs giving time for savage bruisings... otherwise a 1400dps seems unlikely on one target without pulling some aggro and havin to FD and lower dps, around 1k my bruiser starts walkin the aggro edge into dangerous territory even with all the master hate transfers etc<div></div>

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 10:13 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vorham wrote:<BR><BR>maybe they got the right setup for melee I dunno... I see a 1400dps bruiser parse which is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high.. overlord must be tanked and adds owned by AEs giving time for savage bruisings... otherwise a 1400dps seems unlikely on one target without pulling some aggro and havin to FD and lower dps, around 1k my bruiser starts walkin the aggro edge into dangerous territory even with all the master hate transfers etc<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>It's because of group set up and optimized hate. With a proper group set up and enough hate on the MT, he will rarely lose agro even when competing against the highest dps'rs of any class.</P> <P>One thing that amazed me when I started raiding with Dissolution is that I never get hit anymore by mobs during raids. I'm a defiler. In my previous guild, I got hit by the named mob almost every fight, unless I played very conservatively. </P> <P>Now, even when I preward the MT by stacking all my regular and emergency wards on him before a pull, and even on a prox pull, the mob will stay on him rather than coming to me. It is now the rare exception, rather than the rule, that I get hit by any mob during an encounter.</P> <P>I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be able to pull a mob off our MT except with Rescue.</P>

Stormhawk

07-31-2006, 10:15 AM

Lockeye, does your Troub favor the ranger over the other players? I know I push those kinds of numbers over a minute's time only when I recieve Jester's from my Troub. This will allow me to do a Focus Aim cycle twice in a fight. Without it, my DPS goes into the dumpster after 30 seconds until around 1:10 when Focus Aim refreshes. I did Labs tonight and I have a Wurm Destroyer. My average DPS for a minute's worth of my fighting time was right around 1100 with a couple of spikes around 1700. Might I request a small change to Focus Aim. Lower the recast timer to 50 seconds instead of a minute. This would bring it up with our other CAs instead of having to wait an additional 10 seconds after our first CA we use with it comes up. As it is currently it, it is effectively a 1:10 recast timer instead of 1:00. All the CAs used with it are on 1:00 recast timers. I'm pretty sure this behavior wasn't really intended. Overall I think the change is mostly minor and will allow us to use our CAs at their actual recast times instead of Focus Aim's recast. <div></div>

Wil81115

07-31-2006, 10:29 AM

<P>Those other DPS classess in that raid Lockeye are slackin or plain suck. Also what was the group setup of said ranger.</P> <P>Why are you keeping the ranger's name secret? Is it your toon?</P> <P> </P>

Tseri

07-31-2006, 10:34 AM

<DIV>Lockeye, thanks for the reply, but I have to say...looking at those parses it looks like that Ranger had -the- ultimate setup in order to maximize his DPS and the rest got shunted into the group that I'm normally shoved in because my guild wants me along but doesn't want to waste the DPS buffs on me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at those parses my first thought was, ok, that's around what I parse if I work my butt off and have the buffs I need. Which means I somehow managed to get placed in the group with the Fury and the Trouby and maybe the Conjurer. My second thought was, omg that assassin sucks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guild leader is an assassin and he can just about auto attack for what that assassin was parsing. I don't have any parses to share. I don't run one. So you'll just have to take my word for it I guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I work as hard as I can at raids. I buy GM poisons, use teir appropriate arrows, int potions, my str is way the hell up there and I still can't touch the assassin in DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In Lyceum and Labs (with a wurm destroyer bow) I don't do any higher than around 1,500 dps and that's only on multi mob encounters that I can use Rain and Selection on and only if the stars are properly aligned and I managed to get in a group that will buff my DPS and give me haste.</DIV>

Wil81115

07-31-2006, 10:42 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR>Look back one page in this thread. My combined parse for all of lyceum was just under 1900dps. Im a conjuror. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you want a cookie?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I highly doubt that. He is making a point, just like the rest of us are trying to but you refuse to listen. That a prime example of a summoner kickin' a rangers [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when it comes to DPS. It contradicts your previous statements. Have a rebuttal?</P> <P>Also please post that group setup and what buffs the ranger had. I highly doubt he did that on their own..</P> <P> </P>

Amwix

07-31-2006, 11:03 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Wil81115 wrote:<div></div><blockquote><div><blockquote><hr></blockquote></div>I highly doubt that. He is making a point, just like the rest of us are trying to but you refuse to listen. That a prime example of a summoner kickin' a rangers [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] when it comes to DPS. It contradicts your previous statements. Have a rebuttal?</blockquote> <p>Also please post that group setup and what buffs the ranger had. I highly doubt he did that on their own..</p> <hr></blockquote>Your right.. I doubt the ranger was doing it him self..And given the numbers the conj/necros where putting out i would say they have there Pets named to the same as the ranger.The only way i can break 1.2k (consitantly) is by having my local mage change the name of her pet to mine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> should see my parse then..those parse are so RANDOM its not funny and they make almost no sence.. with double ups and repeats..</div>

Didi

07-31-2006, 11:16 AM

<P>Perhaps it's something as simple as, maybe rangers are less able to improve their dps by player skill/buff combinations than other classes.</P> <P>I'm certain if Lockeye says that an overall parse of rangers shows they're in the top positions, he's not lying - that would simply be silly. Of course he's not lying, and I'm sure he's not mistaken, he's the expert. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG>So, fact one, we know that rangers do, on average, parse up near the top.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>The people posting, however, appear to me very knowledgeable players and are probably mainly in raiding guilds, and are seeing different parses for rangers. I'm sure they're not lying either and I doubt they're mistaken.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG>So, fact two, we know that rangers parse lower in groups of extremely skilled players.</STRONG></FONT></P> <P>These two aren't necessarily contradictory. </P> <UL> <LI>If other classes are able to increase their DPS significantly as player skill increases, but if ranger damage remains pretty much the same no matter how skilled the player is, then both the two above facts could be explained. </LI> <LI>If other classes are able to use group buffs, potions, or other external ways of increasing their DPS better than rangers can, then again, an 'average' group with 'average' rangers would show rangers coming out near the top, yet would still explain why they don't perform well in the experience of raiding guilds.</LI> <LI>there are possibly other explanations besides the two above that might account for facts 1 and 2.</LI></UL> <P>If an explanation like one of the above is in fact the case, it would explain why the majority of the players posting on this thread feel there is a problem, yet the gamewide parses are not highlighting it, since the proportion of Lockeye's gamewide parses of rangers doing damage would presumably be just average rangers in average groups. I would think it would be very difficult to measure the degree to which ranger buffs and skill can increase their DPS relative to other classes', but it seems to me that if fact 1 and fact 2 are both true, the answer to this debate has to lie somewhere in there.</P>

schla

07-31-2006, 11:34 AM

<P>Apprecite the responce Lockeye</P> <P>But like others have stated here before me those numbers seems odd to me as well.</P> <P>I have hit those kinds of parses myself on rare occations where for one reason or antoher I have been in a group with only 2 "melee dps classes" and several buffers such as beserker, invis, coercer, dirge etc.</P> <P>The thing is that every time I have done about 1600 dps our guild assasin, a very good player who is actually usually in the MT group for max hate (utillity!! .-)) , have always and consistently been 200 dps higher and 400 higher when Jcapped....</P> <P>That means somewhere between 1800 and 2200. Either the assasin in the parsers you provided didn't know how to play his class or was slacking something awful.</P> <P>There are so many encounters where the difference is even more outspoken.</P>

scl

07-31-2006, 11:42 AM

I can't shake the feeling that Lockeye is adamant that Rangers do enough DPS because he happens to have a very skilled one in his raids. Thats understandable of course, but the problem is the rest of the DPS classes in that raid seem to be considerably under the skill level of the Ranger.Look at the numbers Disso's players put out compared to the same classes in Lockeye's parse. It's a night and day difference. Personally, I would love to see Disso take in a Ranger for a few raids and give him the sort of group treatment Skratch would get. I know Disso have openly offered to do this with seemingly no takers, but it would be interesting to see, none the less.

gilmonn

07-31-2006, 11:50 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> A guild that chooses not to invite Rangers on their raids because they claim that Rangers as a class (and not the individual player) deal less DPS could become trapped in a self-fulfilling prophecy that they could not ever prove theirselves wrong.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>They never said they would not allow a ranger to join one of thier raids. What was stated was that they have no rangers in thier guild and threw an invite for a ranger to prove that they could indeed compete with other equally well equiped and played characters.<BR></P>

Peston

07-31-2006, 12:27 PM

Thought I would throw my 2 cents in on how I am treated in a raid situation."Usually" I am placed in a group with no buffs or hardly any buffs. So I have nothing but maybe a few extra resists, mana, or hp.Anyway... my point is.. just that I never really get any buffs. I do have to work extremely hard to parse over 800dps an encounter. Those Ranger parses are extremely insane... the group must have been optimized for it...Suggestions on fixing this? I dunno.. give us some of our own personal raid buffs? Who knows... I just know that what I'm seeing can't be the truth.Thanks for your replies Lockeye =)<div></div>

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 12:40 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> gilmonn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> A guild that chooses not to invite Rangers on their raids because they claim that Rangers as a class (and not the individual player) deal less DPS could become trapped in a self-fulfilling prophecy that they could not ever prove theirselves wrong.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>They never said they would not allow a ranger to join one of thier raids. What was stated was that they have no rangers in thier guild and threw an invite for a ranger to prove that they could indeed compete with other equally well equiped and played characters.<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd like to point out that nobody in my guild just woke up one day and decided to exclude Rangers. I also don't think Rangers are excluded now. On the other hand, we don't have a Ranger and aren't recruiting any. Let me explain. </P> <P>When I tried out for Dissolution, I remember some Rangers tried out at the same time. Usually several people try out for one open spot at the same time, knowing that only one person will get the spot. It's competitive.</P> <P>But none of the Rangers who tried out since I joined was offered membership. As it was explained to me, these appeared to be nice, stable people and hard workers, but after extensive parsing, they weren't able to parse within several hundred dps of our other dps classes, including our berzerker. </P> <P>This matched what my guildmates already knew and believed following the post DoF ranger "tuning". Then, Dissolution had a world class ranger who loved his class. But after those changes, he also was no longer able to dps as well as the lowest dps members in our guild, so being someone with a lot of pride, he changed mains to one that was more needed and he could make a better contribution on.</P> <P>As Ishbu has said, the guild's mind isn't closed and we don't discriminate against anyone. But every spot on our roster must be earned and justified. If a Ranger was able to prove he could parse up with our Assassin, Conjuror or Necro, I bet a Ranger spot would reopen. But until then, we've already given tryouts and compared weeks worth of parses against all current encounters, and based on those findings, are entitled to conclude that no ranger in EQ2 can produce damage as high as any of our dps members.</P> <P>I'd also like to point out that my guild doesn't have and isn't looking to recruit a SK, but not just because of dps. In the case of SKs, another type of fighter can tank any encounter in game better, and SK dps is at the bottom of all fighters. Plus, SK utility skills are fluff at best and not very useful. They are the worst tanks, the worst fighter dps, and have the least special skills. There is nothing they do that would ever cause anyone to say "darn, we could have beat that encounter if we only had a SK."</P> <P>Now, on the other hand, we have two dirges, and two brigands, and this is on a roster of about 25 members total. My question for Lockeye would be, if EQ2 raids are designed for 24 players max, why are some classes so valuable that all or most guilds want 2 or more of that class, but can raid very nicely with no players from other classes? It's just a fact that some classes are much more valuable than others in this game. Other classes, including SKs and Rangers, are like fat kids in dodge ball. Sure, you'll pick one if you have no choice and need to fill your side, but they will usually be your last choice, unless you feel sorry enough to bring one along anyway, or because he is your friend. EQ2 is far from equal between the classes at this time, it's just a fact some classes are much more valuable than others. And that isn't fair.</P>

gilmonn

07-31-2006, 12:58 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR>Look back one page in this thread. My combined parse for all of lyceum was just under 1900dps. Im a conjuror. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do you want a cookie?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This seems very rude to me. You talk about "averages", then you post small instances of data, though you did say to take it with a grain of salt and that it was inaccurate. Ishbu was just pointing out that by your statement, his averages should be lower then your averages. You did not post an average so he used the only data provided.</P> <P> </P>

Snarks

07-31-2006, 12:58 PM

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> gilmonn wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Lockeye wrote: <div></div> <div></div>A guild that chooses not to invite Rangers on their raids because they claim that Rangers as a class (and not the individual player) deal less DPS could become trapped in a self-fulfilling prophecy that they could not ever prove theirselves wrong. <p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:22 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>They never said they would not allow a ranger to join one of thier raids. What was stated was that they have no rangers in thier guild and threw an invite for a ranger to prove that they could indeed compete with other equally well equiped and played characters.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I'd like to point out that nobody in my guild just woke up one day and decided to exclude Rangers. I also don't think Rangers are excluded now. On the other hand, we don't have a Ranger and aren't recruiting any. Let me explain. </p> <p>When I tried out for Dissolution, I remember some Rangers tried out at the same time. Usually several people try out for one open spot at the same time, knowing that only one person will get the spot. It's competitive.</p> <p>But none of the Rangers who tried out since I joined was offered membership. As it was explained to me, these appeared to be nice, stable people and hard workers, but after extensive parsing, they weren't able to parse within several hundred dps of our other dps classes, including our berzerker. </p> <p>This matched what my guildmates already knew and believed following the post DoF ranger "tuning". Then, Dissolution had a world class ranger who loved his class. But after those changes, he also was no longer able to dps as well as the lowest dps members in our guild, so being someone with a lot of pride, he changed mains to one that was more needed and he could make a better contribution on.</p> <p>As Ishbu has said, the guild's mind isn't closed and we don't discriminate against anyone. But every spot on our roster must be earned and justified. If a Ranger was able to prove he could parse up with our Assassin, Conjuror or Necro, I bet a Ranger spot would reopen. But until then, we've already given tryouts and compared weeks worth of parses against all current encounters, and based on those findings, are entitled to conclude that no ranger in EQ2 can produce damage as high as any of our dps members.</p> <p>I'd also like to point out that my guild doesn't have and isn't looking to recruit a SK, but not just because of dps. In the case of SKs, another type of fighter can tank any encounter in game better, and SK dps is at the bottom of all fighters. Plus, SK utility skills are fluff at best and not very useful. They are the worst tanks, the worst fighter dps, and have the least special skills. There is nothing they do that would ever cause anyone to say "darn, we could have beat that encounter if we only had a SK."</p> <p>Now, on the other hand, we have two dirges, and two brigands, and this is on a roster of about 25 members total. My question for Lockeye would be, if EQ2 raids are designed for 24 players max, why are some classes so valuable that all or most guilds want 2 or more of that class, but can raid very nicely with no players from other classes? It's just a fact that some classes are much more valuable than others in this game. Other classes, including SKs and Rangers, are like fat kids in dodge ball. Sure, you'll pick one if you have no choice and need to fill your side, but they will usually be your last choice, unless you feel sorry enough to bring one along anyway, or because he is your friend. EQ2 is far from equal between the classes at this time, it's just a fact some classes are much more valuable than others. And that isn't fair.</p><hr></blockquote>I think you are seeing the real problem with the situation. With 24 classes and 24 spots in a raid (and this has been backed up by dev statements), the 'ultimate' raid setup would have 1 of every class. Why would anyone pick a ranger over a brigand? A swash? A zerker? A conjurer/Necro? There is -no- reason to pick a ranger for a raid when you can get just as much dps and get the insane utility offered by brigands and other classes. Shadowknight also falls into this trap, but this is about rangers so I wont go there. People are putting way too much attention to these parses which are essentially <b>meaningless</b> without <i><b>a lot</b></i> more information. <div></div>

Laiina

07-31-2006, 02:03 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <P><STRONG>But none of the Rangers who tried out since I joined was offered membership. As it was explained to me, these appeared to be nice, stable people and hard workers, <EM>but after extensive parsing, they weren't able to parse within several hundred dps of our other dps classes, </EM>including our berzerker. </STRONG>.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And this shows one of the many fallacies of dps parsing, and especially choosing classes for positions based only on dps parsing.</P> <P>One of many examples of how things are not as they seem in parses:</P> <P>An Assasin on our raid is consistently at #2 for dps parses. I give him a proc damage buff, and he moves to #1.</P> <P>- So who's dps is that - is it mine or is it the Assasin? My dps did not go up, but the overall raid and group dps went up because of MY buff.</P> <P>Repeat this for many other classes and it begins to show the many errors of relying just on dps numbers.</P> <P>And how do you count debuffs? If someone can debuff a mob so that it takes 2% more damage, is the debuffer considered to have added dps - nope, never happen.</P> <P>DPS numbers are good for a few things, such as before and after comparisons, but other than that they show only a very fragmented view and are often misused - as in the example that you gave.<BR></P>

Laiina

07-31-2006, 02:07 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Amwix wrote:</P> <P><BR><STRONG>The only way i can break 1.2k (consitantly) is by having my local mage change the name of her pet to mine <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> should see my parse then..<BR></STRONG><BR><BR>those parse are so RANDOM its not funny and they make almost no sence.. with double ups and repeats..<BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is actually kind of funny, a while back on old server 5 pet classes and 1 templar group. All the pets were given the same name as the templar. Killed a few dozen low green (one step above grey) mobs and parsed.</P> <P>Pretty funny to see a templar come out at 2500+ dps....<BR></P>

n0kn0k

07-31-2006, 02:08 PM

To bad there ain't a necro on that parse <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />He would also easily beat your ranger, and end up with 75% power left if he had arch lich m1.Btw look at the named parses. Do you notice anything about the whizzies? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />My guess is that they ran out of power on those "longer" encounters, beeing the power wasting class we are.<div></div>

vinterskugge

07-31-2006, 02:17 PM

<DIV>Seeing as we actually still raid with a ranger I'll post some of my parses. He's a good player who knows what he's doing, but so are our other DPS classes. The only class he's missing in his group is a troubador, apart from that it's pretty much ideal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>A Charged Presence<BR>Allies: (01:43) 1849722 | 17958.47 [Ice Nova-17871]<BR>Brigand 204649 | 1986.88<BR>Wizard 159670 | 1550.19<BR>Swashbuckler 151738 | 1473.18<BR>Assassin 135530 | 1315.83<BR>Ranger 119674 | 1161.88<BR>Warlock 110052 | 1068.47<SPAN> <BR></SPAN>Illusionist 95912 | 931.18 <BR>Troubador 94453 | 917.02</P> <P> </P> <P>Pain<BR>Allies: (01:47) 2038333 | 19049.84 [-Ice Nova-17871]<BR>Assassin 190484 | 1780.22<BR>Brigand 181085 | 1692.38<BR>Wizard 160628 | 1501.20<BR>Swashbuckler 155047 | 1449.04<BR>Ranger 144718 | 1352.51<BR>Wizard 139043 | 1299.47<BR>Brigand 138158 | 1291.2<BR>Illusionist131422 | 1228.24<BR>Troubador 124243 | 1161.15<BR>Monk 115882 | 1083.01</P> <P> </P> <P>Overlord of Captivity<BR>Allies: (02:37) 2579897 | 16432.46 [Arwenia-Ice Nova-17871]<BR>Assassin 229649 | 1462.73<BR>Brigand 226878 | 1445.08<BR>Swashbuckler 210197 | 1338.83<BR>Ranger 202692 | 1291.03<BR>Wizard 183065 | 1166.02<BR>Wizard 164072 | 1045.05<BR>Illusionist 158414 | 1009.01<BR>Troubador 145958 | 929.67<BR>Brigand 133232 | 848.61</P> <P>(you can probably tell who died in this one <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P> </P> <P>In the overall zone parse for HoS, the ranger was below the wizards, assassin, brigand, and swashbuckler.<SPAN> </SPAN>The conjuror left early but would have beaten him easily.</P> <P> </P> <P>Alzid Prime<BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 872321 | 18173.35 [Ice Nova-17706]<BR>Assassin 82647 | 1721.81<BR>Brigand 72257 | 1505.35<BR>Conjuror 69049 | 1438.52<BR>Brigand 62961 | 1311.69<BR>Swashbuckler 59837 | 1246.60<BR>Ranger 59129 | 1231.85<BR>Monk 49727 | 1035.98<BR>Troubador 45489 | 947.69</P> <P> </P> <P>The Uncaged Alzid<BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 872321 | 18173.35 [-Ice Nova-17706]<BR>Assassin 82647 | 1721.81<BR>Brigand 72257 | 1505.35<BR>Conjuror 69049 | 1438.52<BR>Brigand 62961 | 1311.69<BR>Swashbuckler 59837 | 1246.60<BR>Ranger 59129 | 1231.85<BR>Monk 49727 | 1035.98<BR>Troubador 45489 | 947.69</P> <P> </P> <P>Note how the assassin always does more, and the brigand, despite having infinitely more utility always does more as well. I'd welcome some parses from other raiding guilds too to back these facts up.</P> <P> </P> <P>Edit: Lockeye, I invite you to join us on a raid, playing a ranger with whatever gear you want in an optimal DPS group so you can see this for yourself. I guarantee you won't beat our summoners, rogues and assassins.</P> <P>Edit #2: I seem to have duplicated the last parse, but you get the picture.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by vinterskugge on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

selch

07-31-2006, 02:18 PM

<blockquote><hr>Vorham wrote:if thats not utility i dunno what is... my bruisers FD if we wipe? /shrugmaybe they got the right setup for melee I dunno... I see a 1400dps bruiser parse which is pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] high.. overlord must be tanked and adds owned by AEs giving time for savage bruisings... otherwise a 1400dps seems unlikely on one target without pulling some aggro and havin to FD and lower dps, around 1k my bruiser starts walkin the aggro edge into dangerous territory even with all the master hate transfers etc<div></div><hr></blockquote>Don't forget the fact that Bruisers having many broken skills that is "* If's" forgetten to place back in (on purpose or by mistake.Such as the special while you have to do damage "if target is knocked down already" , it currently does if kd'd or not. So there is an "If" missing there. That makes bruisers DPS much better, bruisers defense already better.

CrazedMut

07-31-2006, 04:07 PM

Lockeye, a few of the classes in your raid are parsing seriously low, namely Assassin and Conjuror. Our Assassins average 1600dps each fight. Also does your ranger have a fabled bow? I'll be honest I have never seen a Ranger ever consistantly parse around 14000, you're one must be uber and proc buffed to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].<div></div>

AbyssLaboli

07-31-2006, 04:26 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> snarkteeth wrote:<BR>actually I take my previous comment back, 900 dps for a tank-specced-brigand is very nice<BR><BR>truth be told this is a very complicated situation where many rangers feel undervalued and many others argue. It's pretty obvious that a range is not fun to play for most people I have encountered. In t6 they were fun because they did extroardinary dps. but now with conjurers and even berzerkers reaching 1700+ on parses much more often than a ranger, they have to question their purpose. rangers offer the least utility, buffs, debuffs, of any class in the game. Sure they may do what you consider appropriate DPS, but with so little going for them, they should be the highest dps in the game, period. When they are regularly beat by classes who do have utility, theres a serious problem.<BR><BR> looking at parses which are subjective at best is not going to offer any solution. rangers need something going for them, and right now, they dont. which, for most people, makes them a very boring class. Especially raiders, who like to feel like they are contributing to a greater whole.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Add to the fact cost of play for arrows and posion. What other classes on your parse are actually paying to attain thier DPS? Take the ranger on a raid without arrows and posion, make them rely on only harvesting arrows, and see where he / she lands on the parse. I dont see wizards paying for spell componets to ice nova, healers for herbs to heal, or tanks gaudy clothing to taunt.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>PS - strike that last part about tanks and clothing</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by AbyssLabolith on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

Gareorn

07-31-2006, 04:57 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>As Ishbu has said, the guild's mind isn't closed and we don't discriminate against anyone. But every spot on our roster must be earned and justified. If a Ranger was able to prove he could parse up with our Assassin, Conjuror or Necro, I bet a Ranger spot would reopen. But until then, we've already given tryouts and compared weeks worth of parses against all current encounters, and based on those findings, are entitled to conclude that no ranger in EQ2 can produce damage as high as any of our dps members.</P> <P>I'd also like to point out that my guild doesn't have and isn't looking to recruit a SK, but not just because of dps. In the case of SKs, another type of fighter can tank any encounter in game better, and SK dps is at the bottom of all fighters. Plus, SK utility skills are fluff at best and not very useful. They are the worst tanks, the worst fighter dps, and have the least special skills. There is nothing they do that would ever cause anyone to say "darn, we could have beat that encounter if we only had a SK."</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dang! I have Ranger for a main and an SK for my Primary Alt.:smileyvery-happy:

Teksun

07-31-2006, 05:09 PM

There is one more thing to question. I'm sure a lot of the high end Rangers are using rare poisons and possibly bought arrows to bring there numbers up. There is no way to take this into account. I sure as heck can not afford to spend at least 1pp per raid and I only raid once per week...<div></div>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 05:15 PM

<blockquote><hr>Laiina wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Ixnay wrote:<BR><P><STRONG>But none of the Rangers who tried out since I joined was offered membership. As it was explained to me, these appeared to be nice, stable people and hard workers, <EM>but after extensive parsing, they weren't able to parse within several hundred dps of our other dps classes, </EM>including our berzerker. </STRONG>.</P><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And this shows one of the many fallacies of dps parsing, and especially choosing classes for positions based only on dps parsing.</P><P>One of many examples of how things are not as they seem in parses:</P><P>An Assasin on our raid is consistently at #2 for dps parses. I give him a proc damage buff, and he moves to #1.</P><P>- So who's dps is that - is it mine or is it the Assasin? My dps did not go up, but the overall raid and group dps went up because of MY buff.</P><P>Repeat this for many other classes and it begins to show the many errors of relying just on dps numbers.</P><P>And how do you count debuffs? If someone can debuff a mob so that it takes 2% more damage, is the debuffer considered to have added dps - nope, never happen.</P><P>DPS numbers are good for a few things, such as before and after comparisons, but other than that they show only a very fragmented view and are often misused - as in the example that you gave.<BR></P><hr></blockquote>Well when we parse, all things are considered. I know where our assassins can and do parse under normal circumstances, but say for whatever reason we need to have them in a tank group providing hate some day with no real buffs for them to enhance dps, Im not going to be upset when they are a couple hundred dps lower.When we bring new melee dps with I usually give them the "good" group or the "dps" group a majority of the time to see what they are capable of. This group consists of dps/haste buffs, str/int buffs, as well as procs, deaggro and power regen. Its pretty much a paradise. Our raids are set up for absolute max dps/hate generation so there is no reason for them to be holding back. If they cant parse comparitively in these situations, they dont make the final cut, its as simple as that. From all the different rangers we have had with, including the ones that were easily topping parses in DoF (wich is saying more than you think because conjurors were no slouches back then), they simply cant compete to other classes played by competent players who are set up for dps.This just makes me think that rangers need an upgrade because they bring no utility and their dps is surpassed by several other classes that bring more. Hell, even assassins can proc someone.Oh, and while I appreciate it, there is no reason to jump on lockeye for possibly being rude to me. What goes around comes around after all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

vinterskugge

07-31-2006, 05:19 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <P>This just makes me think that rangers need an upgrade because they bring no utility and their dps is surpassed by several other classes that bring more. Hell, even assassins can proc someone.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And appy poison is one of the best procs out there, I've seen it add up to an extra 80dps on me. For the class that is probably the best DPS class there is, that's awesome utility. And what do rangers have? That [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] bird.

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 05:52 PM

Id be happy with the bird.. If it were on a shorter recast and did not break stealth.

Mabes

07-31-2006, 05:53 PM

<P>Alright, this is the last thing to push me over the edge, I'm definetly betraying to assassin. I started a Ranger because I wanted a true dps class to take on the odd raids when my healer isn't needed. The only reason I haven't betrayed yet was because I thought they would listen to the players, and adjust Rangers some by EoF, but the dev posts in here show that is clearly not the case.</P> <P>Luckily, my ranger isn't at level 70 so it won't be that big of a deal betraying, but I feel real bad for all the players who have a 70 Ranger as their main toon...</P>

Korb

07-31-2006, 06:13 PM

I think something is broken with this "serverwide" parsing tool... :smileymad:

slyfer

07-31-2006, 06:14 PM

An easy way to resolve alot of these problems I think is to have a in game parser. So we are all looking at the same data.

Korb

07-31-2006, 06:16 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> slyfer wrote:<BR> An easy way to resolve alot of these problems I think is to have a in game parser. So we are all looking at the same data.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>They won't do that because they now they can say we have this "top secret super server parser" that shows different numbers and is more accurate than everyone elses, and every is right where we want them so don't ask again...

AChampi

07-31-2006, 06:25 PM

<blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div>I raided this weekend and using a local parser and the Ranger in the raid used their parser. After each fight, there were variations in the amount of damage recorded. There are all kinds of factors that go into which data gets parsed and how, that these parsers are a great tool to measure overall how well players DPS, but it is never 100% accurate. Local parser results can vary due to distance and lag. Many times, the Ranger’s parses of their own performance were higher than what my parser indicated, sometimes by over 100 DPS in favor of the Ranger on their own parse.</blockquote>I am sorry Lockeye but this just doesn't tally with my experiences.So either:1) I am not as skilled at my char as the ranger on the raid. This maybe true but the difference is so great to the other classes that if this is true I have a lot more to learn than I thought. Given the overwhelming observations from other players (both rangers and non-rangers) this would surprise me.2) The raid setup was skewed in favour of the ranger as the other classes you show seem abnormally low in comparison to my and other's experiences.3) There are hidden assumptions we may not be aware of:In an attempt to prove the "Maharishi Effect" people were asked to submit when they meditated. Surprising, when there was an increase in meditation submissions the crime rate dropped - thereby proving the "Maharishi Effect". Unfortunately when the data was looked at more critically it was found that the increase in meditation was in direct proportion to the number of people on holiday. The reduction in crime during holidays always fell and it had in fact nothing to do with the meditation...Statistics and sampling always have these often hidden assumptions and this forum "and bigger brain" should provide us a means to uncover any hidden assumptions so that a sensible discussion can follow.Any chance at getting a copy of the logs and raid setup, I am more than happy to publish my findings against the 3 points above.Regards-Slic.<p>Message Edited by AChampion on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

Araxes

07-31-2006, 06:27 PM

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div><div></div>... Rangers happen to do well very consistently in single target, multiple target, and area effect avoidance encounters, <i><b>that some classes can vary wildly on.</b></i><u><span></span></u>... Going by the server data, I still cannot find any evidence that Rangers are nothing short of a top DPS performing class ...<hr></blockquote>In light of those two remarks ... care to comment on the state of the Warlock? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

Yunga_511

07-31-2006, 06:50 PM

<DIV>My Opinion? Don't Trust the Parser</DIV> <DIV>Why?</DIV> <DIV>Because It is Unreliable, There are Ways to Trick the Parse into Thinking your top DPS...</DIV> <DIV>Although I Can't Share them with you, Why would you want to know?</DIV> <DIV>We at Conviction Don't Look at a parser and go, "OMG <Playername> So so Dam Ubah! THATS ALOT of DPS, LETS GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS!"</DIV> <DIV>We Look at the Power lvl's</DIV> <DIV>This is Hard Because of Mana Regen and such but its Better than Dissing Someone Who didnt Afk and Gets Low DPS cause some Fruitcake Grabs a drink and comes Back at 10%.....I Won't Continue that Sentence...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I Can Parse 2.5k-3.5k Easily On Any Raid mob with a Aoe Every 15 Minutes, Its called a Buttload of Swarm pets And I don't Have to use any Power...That isn't Tricking Parser, Its just how the Game works</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span>

Pins

07-31-2006, 06:57 PM

<blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:A bunch of stuff and some parses of single fights.<hr></blockquote>There anyway you could give the entire zone-wide parse of Halls of Seeing? Also how long is the average between time on pulls for you? Do you wait 2-3 minutes, giving Rangers enough time to get Rain of Arrows up again? Or is it about 20 seconds or so, not giving them enough time to have Rain of Arrows refresh? This is another key thing that most people seem to fail to take into account. Some guilds just go slower progressing through zones waiting a minute between each pull, or taking long AFKs while in the zone sometimes. That's another key thing you also have to take into account. We wait about 10-15 seconds in between every pull, just to get to the next mob. Sometimes having a 2nd encounter add on us and continue to fight it. This is 1 thing that parses also fail to bring up. So I'm bringing it up. Is there a period of waiting, or do you guys plow through the content? Also, if you stop after a certain point in the zone, just what do you consider your zone-wide parse? I generally take out any wipes because they are generally meaningless parses that don't count as nobody has managed to live and do damage.But again, is there a significat(2+ minute) wait time between each pull? Or do are you just plowing through the encounters without waiting longer than 20 seconds?Editted: Missed a horizontal bar! Silly HTML!<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

nu

07-31-2006, 06:58 PM

<hr> Lockeye wrote: <strong>Named Encounters:</strong><u>The Overlord of Captivity:</u>Allies: (04:07) 2831204 | 11462.36 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14670]Ranger 342797 | 1387.84Assassin 271019 | 1097.24Brigand 220264 | 891.76Troubador 196234 | 794.47Wizard 186107 | 753.47Bruiser 182173 | 737.54Conjurer 180999 | 732.79Coercer 165533 | 670.17 <p> Dissoluions Parse </p><p>Overlord of Captivity(02:31) 2483288 | 16,445.62 | Skratch-Decapitate-17436Skratch 258965 | 1,715.00 AssassinDragorn 212125 | 1,404.80 BruiserFalcogen 202611 | 1,341.80 WizardTangarth 187417 | 1,241.17 BrigandIshbu 162008 | 1,072.90 ConjurorZaphear 161155 | 1,067.25 BrigandNooch 156907 | 1,039.12 NecromancerKobal 155915 | 1,032.55 BerserkerXede 136091 | 901.26 WarlockCalaglin 131904 | 873.54 IllusionistHeisenberg 127801 | 846.36 GuardianItoock 107368 | 711.05 PaladinXelus 89553 | 593.07 CoercerElrohn 72441 | 479.74 TemplarAngua 63329 | 419.40 TroubadorFern 49809 | 329.86 WardenRefrain 49128 | 325.35 DirgeOopo 45450 | 300.99 TemplarAvirodar 38839 | 257.21 InqElleffgee 37645 | 249.30 DefilerUway 17067 | 113.03 MysticWidem 12360 | 81.85 Fury</p><p>Am I not seeing these to parses correctly? Or do they more or less point to what has been said over and over by Rangers.</p><p>I realize we don't know what epuipment or spells Lockeye's ranger and Dissolutions assassin have, so I'll assume for sake of arguement they are both fully fabled and mastered.</p><p>Lockeye's group seems to be setup to maximize scout dps in general. Where as Dissolutions seems to be setup to max the groups total dps. Granted the Ranger in Lockeye's group , topped his parse.....but at what cost?</p><p>1) Lockeye's group took roughly a minute and a half longer to kill this encounter.</p><p>2) Lockeye's group's DPS total was much lower than Dissolutions.</p><p>3) Lockeye's Ranger's DPS output still falls Short of Dissolutions Assassin on the same mob, when I assume both were buffed to max their respective DPS.</p><p></p><p></p><div></div>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 06:58 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote:<DIV>My Opinion? Don't Trust the Parser</DIV><DIV>Why?</DIV><DIV>Because It is Unreliable, There are Ways to Trick the Parse into Thinking your top DPS...</DIV><DIV>Although I Can't Share them with you, Why would you want to know?</DIV><DIV>We at Conviction Don't Look at a parser and go, "OMG <Playername> So so Dam Ubah! THATS ALOT of DPS, LETS GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS!"</DIV><DIV>We Look at the Power lvl's</DIV><DIV>This is Hard Because of Mana Regen and such but its Better than Dissing Someone Who didnt Afk and Gets Low DPS cause some Fruitcake Grabs a drink and comes Back at 10%.....I Won't Continue that Sentence...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I Can Parse 2.5k-3.5k Easily On Any Raid mob with a Aoe Every 15 Minutes, Its called a Buttload of Swarm pets And I don't Have to use any Power...That isn't Tricking Parser, Its just how the Game works</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Wich is why zone wide parses are good. They take into account recasts for spells so you cant use undead tide every fight, I cant use planar shift ever fight, an assassin cant use decapitate every fight, and so on.Also, is it really that common for people to afk during your raids? If it takes us 49min of fighting on the parse to clear a zone, odds are we arent even in there an hour. We dont stand around, we keep pulling until everything is dead. You can afk after the zone is cleared to get your drink real quick.Maybe its just that our dps classes have pride in their abilities and like to show off what they can do. I dont know. I just know that afk's arent a good way to get things done and if you were really concerened with dps you would boot the people who tend to repeatedly afk.

Pins

07-31-2006, 06:59 PM

<blockquote><hr>Yunga_511 wrote: <DIV>My Opinion? Don't Trust the Parser</DIV> <DIV>Why?</DIV> <DIV>Because It is Unreliable, There are Ways to Trick the Parse into Thinking your top DPS...</DIV> <DIV>Although I Can't Share them with you, Why would you want to know?</DIV> <DIV>We at Conviction Don't Look at a parser and go, "OMG <Playername> So so Dam Ubah! THATS ALOT of DPS, LETS GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS!"</DIV> <DIV>We Look at the Power lvl's</DIV> <DIV>This is Hard Because of Mana Regen and such but its Better than Dissing Someone Who didnt Afk and Gets Low DPS cause some Fruitcake Grabs a drink and comes Back at 10%.....I Won't Continue that Sentence...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I Can Parse 2.5k-3.5k Easily On Any Raid mob with a Aoe Every 15 Minutes, Its called a Buttload of Swarm pets And I don't Have to use any Power...That isn't Tricking Parser, Its just how the Game works</DIV><p>Message Edited by Yunga_511 on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:52 AM</span><hr></blockquote> Extended DPS and how much damage the person did during the encounter time period fixes the first problem really fast. Only was in combat and hit a Decap because you were AFK? Well, you only did 20k damage, yet your "DPS" shows up as 20k, while your "Extended DPS" shows up at 300, because the encounter lasted a minute and change.

Dirtgirl

07-31-2006, 07:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>Seeing as we actually still raid with a ranger I'll post some of my parses. He's a good player who knows what he's doing, but so are our other DPS classes. The only class he's missing in his group is a troubador, apart from that it's pretty much ideal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>A Charged Presence<BR>Allies: (01:43) 1849722 | 17958.47 [Ice Nova-17871]<BR>Brigand 204649 | 1986.88<BR>Wizard 159670 | 1550.19<BR>Swashbuckler 151738 | 1473.18<BR>Assassin 135530 | 1315.83<BR>Ranger 119674 | 1161.88<BR>Warlock 110052 | 1068.47<SPAN> <BR></SPAN>Illusionist 95912 | 931.18 <BR>Troubador 94453 | 917.02</P> <P> </P> <P>Pain<BR>Allies: (01:47) 2038333 | 19049.84 [-Ice Nova-17871]<BR>Assassin 190484 | 1780.22<BR>Brigand 181085 | 1692.38<BR>Wizard 160628 | 1501.20<BR>Swashbuckler 155047 | 1449.04<BR>Ranger 144718 | 1352.51<BR>Wizard 139043 | 1299.47<BR>Brigand 138158 | 1291.2<BR>Illusionist131422 | 1228.24<BR>Troubador 124243 | 1161.15<BR>Monk 115882 | 1083.01</P> <P> </P> <P>Overlord of Captivity<BR>Allies: (02:37) 2579897 | 16432.46 [Arwenia-Ice Nova-17871]<BR>Assassin 229649 | 1462.73<BR>Brigand 226878 | 1445.08<BR>Swashbuckler 210197 | 1338.83<BR>Ranger 202692 | 1291.03<BR>Wizard 183065 | 1166.02<BR>Wizard 164072 | 1045.05<BR>Illusionist 158414 | 1009.01<BR>Troubador 145958 | 929.67<BR>Brigand 133232 | 848.61</P> <P>(you can probably tell who died in this one <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</P> <P> </P> <P>In the overall zone parse for HoS, the ranger was below the wizards, assassin, brigand, and swashbuckler.<SPAN> </SPAN>The conjuror left early but would have beaten him easily.</P> <P> </P> <P>Alzid Prime<BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 872321 | 18173.35 [Ice Nova-17706]<BR>Assassin 82647 | 1721.81<BR>Brigand 72257 | 1505.35<BR>Conjuror 69049 | 1438.52<BR>Brigand 62961 | 1311.69<BR>Swashbuckler 59837 | 1246.60<BR>Ranger 59129 | 1231.85<BR>Monk 49727 | 1035.98<BR>Troubador 45489 | 947.69</P> <P> </P> <P>The Uncaged Alzid<BR>Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 872321 | 18173.35 [-Ice Nova-17706]<BR>Assassin 82647 | 1721.81<BR>Brigand 72257 | 1505.35<BR>Conjuror 69049 | 1438.52<BR>Brigand 62961 | 1311.69<BR>Swashbuckler 59837 | 1246.60<BR>Ranger 59129 | 1231.85<BR>Monk 49727 | 1035.98<BR>Troubador 45489 | 947.69</P> <P> </P> <P>Note how the assassin always does more, and the brigand, despite having infinitely more utility always does more as well. I'd welcome some parses from other raiding guilds too to back these facts up.</P> <P> </P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffcc66>Well Scaf, unfortunately I dont do any parsing for the guild and thus have none to post, but your parses look pretty dead on to what ours show also. Granted our total dps is a bit lower, but as far as where everyone falls at the end of the night, thats about it. Though we do have a bruiser that likes to go crazy and a necro that's in there as well. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc66>^---- This statement still boggles my mind....</FONT></P>

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 07:20 PM

Our Parses match Vinterskugge's almost to a T, except we have 2 assasins who parse withing 80-100 dps of each other and we have necro who is usually at the top of every parse.

IllusiveThoughts

07-31-2006, 07:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> A guild that chooses not to invite Rangers on their raids because they claim that Rangers as a class (and not the individual player) deal less DPS could become trapped in a self-fulfilling prophecy that they could not ever prove theirselves wrong.<BR><BR>I raided this weekend and using a local parser and the Ranger in the raid used their parser. After each fight, there were variations in the amount of damage recorded. There are all kinds of factors that go into which data gets parsed and how, that these parsers are a great tool to measure overall how well players DPS, but it is never 100% accurate. Local parser results can vary due to distance and lag. Many times, the Ranger’s parses of their own performance were higher than what my parser indicated, sometimes by over 100 DPS in favor of the Ranger on their own parse. <BR><BR>On this thread, there’s a post of the zone dps of a raid in Halls of Seeing that you can use as a comparison, although with the varied raid composition, group configurations, player skill, equipment, spell upgrades, spell reuse timers, and parser unreliability, in the end you’re really only comparing apples and oranges. Rangers happen to do well very consistently in single target, multiple target, and area effect avoidance encounters, that some classes can vary wildly on. Take the following Halls of Seeing raid I went on with a grain of salt, as should all local parse results:<BR><BR><U>A sentry of the hoard:</U><BR>Allies: (01:02) 1065654 | 17187.97 [Wizard-Fusion-16043]<BR>Ranger 98899 | 1595.15<BR>Assassin 89273 | 1439.89<BR>Wizard 86684 | 1398.13<BR>Conjurer 81984 | 1322.32<BR>Wizard 69584 | 1122.32<BR>Coercer 64699 | 1043.53<BR>Warlock 64390 | 1038.55<BR>Troubador 56281 | 907.76<BR><BR>Allies: (01:16) 1062808 | 13984.32 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14367]<BR>Ranger 125104 | 1646.11<BR>Assassin 84289 | 1109.07<BR>Conjurer 81943 | 1078.20<BR>Warlock 73808 | 971.16<BR>Berserker 68930 | 906.97<BR>Wizard 68715 | 904.14<BR>Brigand 66286 | 872.18<BR>Troubador 61369 | 807.49<BR><BR><BR><U>A sentry of seeing:</U><BR>Allies: (01:00) 961413 | 16023.55 [Assassin-Decapitate-23925]<BR>Ranger 84013 | 1400.22<BR>Assassin 76236 | 1270.60<BR>Conjurer 74565 | 1242.75<BR>Wizard 60945 | 1015.75<BR>Brigand 60904 | 1015.07<BR>Wizard 56148 | 935.80<BR>Berserker 53958 | 899.30<BR>Warlock 51909 | 865.15<BR><BR><BR><U>A triumphant visionary:</U><BR>Allies: (01:30) 1204583 | 13384.26 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14777]<BR>Wizard 116389 | 1293.21<BR>Ranger 115193 | 1279.92<BR>Wizard 86867 | 965.19<BR>Assassin 78485 | 872.06<BR>Conjurer 77769 | 864.10<BR>Berserker 75227 | 835.86<BR>Coercer 72926 | 810.29<BR>Warlock 72369 | 804.10<BR><BR>Allies: (01:33) 1205959 | 12967.30 [Wizard-Ice Nova-12794]<BR>Ranger 127786 | 1374.04<BR>Wizard 111869 | 1202.89<BR>Conjurer 105650 | 1136.02<BR>Wizard 95347 | 1025.24<BR>Brigand 92420 | 993.76<BR>Swashbuckler 81812 | 879.70<BR>Berserker 69027 | 742.23<BR>Coercer 68984 | 741.76<BR><BR><BR><U>An exultant seer:</U><BR>Allies: (01:26) 1159431 | 13481.76 [Wizard-Ice Nova-18317]<BR>Ranger 120591 | 1402.22<BR>Assassin 101680 | 1182.33<BR>Conjurer 100251 | 1165.71<BR>Brigand 86613 | 1007.13<BR>Wizard 77457 | 900.66<BR>Coercer 75980 | 883.49<BR>Bruiser 72407 | 841.94<BR>Troubador 69694 | 810.40<BR><BR><BR><U>A shadowy construct:</U><BR>Allies: (01:1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1205657 | 15457.14 [Wizard-Ice Nova-11456]<BR>Conjurer 117422 | 1505.41<BR>Ranger 115098 | 1475.62<BR>Assassin 96578 | 1238.18<BR>Brigand 87078 | 1116.39<BR>Wizard 81082 | 1039.51<BR>Warlock 76100 | 975.64<BR>Wizard 74491 | 955.01<BR>Swashbuckler 72507 | 929.58<BR><BR><B>Named Encounters:</B><BR><BR><U>A Shadowy Presence:</U><BR>Allies: (02:44) 2050095 | 12500.58 [Assassin-Decapitate-15410]<BR>Ranger 229596 | 1399.98<BR>Conjurer 190418 | 1161.09<BR>Assassin 168050 | 1024.70<BR>Brigand 167862 | 1023.55<BR>Wizard 155020 | 945.24<BR>Berserker 128529 | 783.71<BR>Troubador 117440 | 716.10<BR>Wizard 116128 | 708.10<BR><BR><U>The Overlord of Captivity:</U><BR>Allies: (04:07) 2831204 | 11462.36 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14670]<BR>Ranger 342797 | 1387.84<BR>Assassin 271019 | 1097.24<BR>Brigand 220264 | 891.76<BR>Troubador 196234 | 794.47<BR>Wizard 186107 | 753.47<BR>Bruiser 182173 | 737.54<BR>Conjurer 180999 | 732.79<BR>Coercer 165533 | 670.17<BR><BR><U>A Charged Presence:</U><BR>Allies: (02:51) 2113375 | 12358.92 [Wizard-Ice Nova-12620]<BR>Ranger 235456 | 1376.94<BR>Brigand 183285 | 1071.84<BR>Assassin 178073 | 1041.36<BR>Bruiser 172754 | 1010.26<BR>Conjurer 166484 | 973.59<BR>Wizard 152688 | 892.91<BR>Berserker 134630 | 787.31<BR>Troubador 132866 | 776.99<BR><BR>I wouldn’t use these local parses or any parsers posted in this thread to determine class balance. Going by the server data, I still cannot find any evidence that Rangers are nothing short of a top DPS performing class that would warrant a balance change granting them additional damage. Note that I used the server data before to measure the amount of DPS imbalance that Rangers had during the proc-delay changes and made the necessary changes in the next update to bring their DPS up based on that data. <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:22 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lockeye I have seen rangers spike to those figures if and when they save all their large combat arts and bowshots for the named encounters.</P> <P>What your not showing us is a zone wide parse from that raid. Please provide the zone wide parse for the ranger and other classes on that raid.</P>

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 07:46 PM

<div></div><p><font color="#ffff00">Vint's parsings.</font></p><p><font color="#ffff00">A Charged Presence</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Allies: (01:43) 1849722 | 17958.47 [Ice Nova-17871]</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 204649 | 1986.88</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Wizard 159670 | 1550.19</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Swashbuckler 151738 | 1473.18</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Assassin 135530 | 1315.83</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Ranger 119674 | 1161.88</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Warlock 110052 | 1068.47</font><font color="#ffff00"><span> </span></font><font color="#ffff00">Illusionist 95912 | 931.18 </font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Troubador 94453 | 917.02</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Pain</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Allies: (01:47) 2038333 | 19049.84 [-Ice Nova-17871]</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Assassin 190484 | 1780.22</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 181085 | 1692.38</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Wizard 160628 | 1501.20</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Swashbuckler 155047 | 1449.04</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Ranger 144718 | 1352.51</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Wizard 139043 | 1299.47</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 138158 | 1291.2</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Illusionist131422 | 1228.24</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Troubador 124243 | 1161.15</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Monk 115882 | 1083.01</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Overlord of Captivity</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Allies: (02:37) 2579897 | 16432.46 [Arwenia-Ice Nova-17871]</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Assassin 229649 | 1462.73</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 226878 | 1445.08</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Swashbuckler 210197 | 1338.83</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Ranger 202692 | 1291.03</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Wizard 183065 | 1166.02</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Wizard 164072 | 1045.05</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Illusionist 158414 | 1009.01</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Troubador 145958 | 929.67</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 133232 | 848.61</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">(you can probably tell who died in this one </font><font color="#ffff00"><img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font><font color="#ffff00">)</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">In the overall zone parse for HoS, the ranger was below the wizards, assassin, brigand, and swashbuckler.</font><font color="#ffff00"><span> </span></font><font color="#ffff00">The conjuror left early but would have beaten him easily.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Alzid Prime</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 872321 | 18173.35 [Ice Nova-17706]</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Assassin 82647 | 1721.81</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 72257 | 1505.35</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Conjuror 69049 | 1438.52</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 62961 | 1311.69</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Swashbuckler 59837 | 1246.60</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Ranger 59129 | 1231.85</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Monk 49727 | 1035.98</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Troubador 45489 | 947.69</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">The Uncaged Alzid</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Allies: (00:4<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 872321 | 18173.35 [-Ice Nova-17706]</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Assassin 82647 | 1721.81</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 72257 | 1505.35</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Conjuror 69049 | 1438.52</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Brigand 62961 | 1311.69</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Swashbuckler 59837 | 1246.60</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Ranger 59129 | 1231.85</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Monk 49727 | 1035.98</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Troubador 45489 | 947.69 - </font></p><hr size="2" width="100%">Disso's lyceum<p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/%7Eelleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></p><p><img src="http://home.comcast.net/%7Eelleffgee/vilucidae.jpg"></p><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Lockeyes HoS parsings</font><font color="#ff0000"><u>A sentry of the hoard:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:02) 1065654 | 17187.97 [Wizard-Fusion-16043]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 98899 | 1595.15</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 89273 | 1439.89</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 86684 | 1398.13</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 81984 | 1322.32</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 69584 | 1122.32</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Coercer 64699 | 1043.53</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Warlock 64390 | 1038.55</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Troubador 56281 | 907.76</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:16) 1062808 | 13984.32 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14367]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 125104 | 1646.11</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 84289 | 1109.07</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 81943 | 1078.20</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Warlock 73808 | 971.16</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Berserker 68930 | 906.97</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 68715 | 904.14</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 66286 | 872.18</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Troubador 61369 | 807.49</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>A sentry of seeing:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:00) 961413 | 16023.55 [Assassin-Decapitate-23925]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 84013 | 1400.22</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 76236 | 1270.60</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 74565 | 1242.75</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 60945 | 1015.75</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 60904 | 1015.07</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 56148 | 935.80</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Berserker 53958 | 899.30</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Warlock 51909 | 865.15</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>A triumphant visionary:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:30) 1204583 | 13384.26 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14777]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 116389 | 1293.21</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 115193 | 1279.92</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 86867 | 965.19</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 78485 | 872.06</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 77769 | 864.10</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Berserker 75227 | 835.86</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Coercer 72926 | 810.29</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Warlock 72369 | 804.10</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:33) 1205959 | 12967.30 [Wizard-Ice Nova-12794]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 127786 | 1374.04</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 111869 | 1202.89</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 105650 | 1136.02</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 95347 | 1025.24</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 92420 | 993.76</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Swashbuckler 81812 | 879.70</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Berserker 69027 | 742.23</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Coercer 68984 | 741.76</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>An exultant seer:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:26) 1159431 | 13481.76 [Wizard-Ice Nova-18317]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 120591 | 1402.22</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 101680 | 1182.33</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 100251 | 1165.71</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 86613 | 1007.13</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 77457 | 900.66</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Coercer 75980 | 883.49</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Bruiser 72407 | 841.94</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Troubador 69694 | 810.40</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>A shadowy construct:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (01:1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 1205657 | 15457.14 [Wizard-Ice Nova-11456]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 117422 | 1505.41</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 115098 | 1475.62</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 96578 | 1238.18</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 87078 | 1116.39</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 81082 | 1039.51</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Warlock 76100 | 975.64</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 74491 | 955.01</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Swashbuckler 72507 | 929.58</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><b>Named Encounters:</b></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>A Shadowy Presence:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (02:44) 2050095 | 12500.58 [Assassin-Decapitate-15410]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 229596 | 1399.98</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 190418 | 1161.09</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 168050 | 1024.70</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 167862 | 1023.55</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 155020 | 945.24</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Berserker 128529 | 783.71</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Troubador 117440 | 716.10</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 116128 | 708.10</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>The Overlord of Captivity:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (04:07) 2831204 | 11462.36 [Wizard-Ice Nova-14670]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 342797 | 1387.84</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 271019 | 1097.24</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 220264 | 891.76</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Troubador 196234 | 794.47</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 186107 | 753.47</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Bruiser 182173 | 737.54</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 180999 | 732.79</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Coercer 165533 | 670.17</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000"><u>A Charged Presence:</u></font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Allies: (02:51) 2113375 | 12358.92 [Wizard-Ice Nova-12620]</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Ranger 235456 | 1376.94</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Brigand 183285 | 1071.84</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Assassin 178073 | 1041.36</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Bruiser 172754 | 1010.26</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Conjurer 166484 | 973.59</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Wizard 152688 | 892.91</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Berserker 134630 | 787.31</font><font color="#ff0000"></font><font color="#ff0000">Troubador 132866 | 776.99</font><hr size="2" width="100%"><p>Disso's HoS parse</p> <p><font color="#6633cc">Overlord of Captivity</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">(02:31) 2483288 | 16,445.62 | Skratch-Decapitate-17436</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Skratch 258965 | 1,715.00 Assassin</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Dragorn 212125 | 1,404.80 Bruiser</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Falcogen 202611 | 1,341.80 Wizard</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Tangarth 187417 | 1,241.17 Brigand</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Ishbu 162008 | 1,072.90 Conjuror</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Zaphear 161155 | 1,067.25 Brigand</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Nooch 156907 | 1,039.12 Necromancer</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Kobal 155915 | 1,032.55 Berserker</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Xede 136091 | 901.26 Warlock</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Calaglin 131904 | 873.54 Illusionist</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Heisenberg 127801 | 846.36 Guardian</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Itoock 107368 | 711.05 Paladin</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Xelus 89553 | 593.07 Coercer</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Elrohn 72441 | 479.74 Templar</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Angua 63329 | 419.40 Troubador</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Fern 49809 | 329.86 Warden</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Refrain 49128 | 325.35 Dirge</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Oopo 45450 | 300.99 Templar</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Avirodar 38839 | 257.21 Inq</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Elleffgee 37645 | 249.30 Defiler</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Uway 17067 | 113.03 Mystic</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Widem 12360 | 81.85 Fury</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Yavanna 5591 | 37.03 Warden</font><font color="#6633cc"></font></p> <p><font color="#6633cc">Ancient Bloodbeast</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">(02:00) 2027032 | 16,891.93 | Falcogen-Ice Nova-16835</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Ishbu 209434 | 1,745.28 Conjuror</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Skratch 204999 | 1,708.33 Assassin</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Falcogen 174454 | 1,453.78 Wizard</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Zaphear 155621 | 1,296.84 Brigand</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Nooch 153416 | 1,278.47 Necromancer</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Xede 140143 | 1,167.86 Warlock</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Tangarth 129592 | 1,079.93 Brigand</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Dragorn 122700 | 1,022.50 Bruiser</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Calaglin 114798 | 956.65 Illusionist</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Heisenberg 114350 | 952.92 Guardian</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Kobal 109002 | 908.35 Berserker</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Xelus 93778 | 781.48 Coercer</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Angua 63824 | 531.87 Troubador</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Itoock 53287 | 444.06 Paladin</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Refrain 52137 | 434.48 Dirge</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Avirodar 47230 | 393.58 Inq</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Widem 34624 | 288.53 Fury</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Uway 25120 | 209.33 Mystic</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Elleffgee 17995 | 149.96 Defiler</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Elrohn 6298 | 52.48 Templar</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Yavanna 2913 | 24.28 Warden</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Oopo 982 | 8.18 Templar</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Fern 0 | 0.00 Warden</font></p> <p><font color="#6633cc">Venekor</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">(02:36) 2432569 | 15,593.39 | Falcogen-Fusion-19380</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Skratch 280284 | 1,796.69 Assassin</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Falcogen 247651 | 1,587.51 Wizard</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Ishbu 198211 | 1,270.58 Conjuror</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Tangarth 175690 | 1,126.22 Brigand</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Nooch 172775 | 1,107.53 Necromancer</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Kobal 170008 | 1,089.80 Berserker</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Xede 169491 | 1,086.48 Warlock</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Zaphear 153783 | 985.79 Brigand</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Calaglin 151133 | 968.80 Illusionist</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Angua 144335 | 925.22 Troubador</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Heisenberg 109800 | 703.85 Guardian</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Dragorn 101577 | 651.13 Bruiser</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Itoock 68440 | 438.72 Paladin</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Xelus 58011 | 371.87 Coercer</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Refrain 56383 | 361.43 Dirge</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Avirodar 39832 | 255.33 Inq</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Fern 37415 | 239.84 Warden</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Oopo 29963 | 192.07 Templar</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Elleffgee 23478 | 150.50 Defiler</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Widem 16603 | 106.43 Fury</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Uway 11670 | 74.81 Mystic</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Elrohn 3957 | 25.37 Templar</font><font color="#6633cc"></font><font color="#6633cc">Yavanna 3757 | 24.08 Warden</font></p> <p> Disso's HoS parse</p><p></p>Ok, so lets say you have similar rangers on similar spells.. Your ranger has parsed where others are seeing parsed, but still falling short. Lockeye posted two spikes of 1600 dps, an average of 1400 dps, and a low spike of 1200 dps.. Disso's conj/assassins averaged out at around 1800.. Lockeyes overlord encounter averaged on a high medium dps for 4 minutes, and the first parse has near half the time, but having more dps classes doing more average damage..These parsings do show rangers at there best.. But hardly any other class at there best.<div></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

Spite

07-31-2006, 08:04 PM

<DIV>Unless a ranger can consistanly be top DPS on a raid by a bit, then in high end raiding he is not the optimal choice for any raid. Rangers bring nothing else to the table. Every other high DPS class bring more to the table to make the raid as a whole better for bringing them. Even an assassin whose DPS is higher already has hate xfer and apply poison. This is a fact that needs to be understood before looking at any parse or stats. Its a simple fact that most choose to ignore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Ranvarenaya

07-31-2006, 08:12 PM

Assassin has hate transfer to a group member, ranger has a standing aggro reducer that virtually assures they won't get aggro regardless of group, hate siphon that reduces the aggro of all non-fighters in the group, and a 30% hate buff that can be put on the MT without being in the MT group, up for 10 sec and down for 20. Being able to maximize dps output without any real risk of pulling aggro is an advantage not only to the ranger, but to the entire raid.Not neccesarily trying to be devil's advocate, just want to be sure we are accurate and complete in our discussion.<div></div>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 08:22 PM

So your saying that the things a ranger brings to a raid are:1. The deaggro hawk2. A hate decrease for only themselves3. An attack that increases the hate of the next person the mob hits for 10sWell lets go through those shall we?1. The hawk is useless. The amount of deaggro it does is inconsequential and doesnt really help at all. If your a person who pulls aggro, you need a real threat decrease, not that garbage.2. This doesnt help the raid. Oh boy the ranger can go all out without fear of pulling aggro. So can a swashbuckler and guess who does more damage? The swashbuckler.3. A swashbuckler also has this ability. They also bring a lot more to the table including more dps.So, why on earth would you bring a ranger over a swashbuckler? Ever?

Katsugen

07-31-2006, 08:33 PM

<DIV>Perhaps I miss read some where but did Lockeye say the numbers he was showing were from some sort of SOE internal parser? If this is the case, and stop me if I'm wrong, but this is HUGE!!! If there is this sort of huge discrepancy between outside parsers and internal SOE parses we have a serious issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going to feed us internal parses that we can't replicate, then I would want to see external parses side by side for the exact same fights, heck you can even go back and pull from your log the same fight. Your conclusion is based on a parser that the player base does not have access to. We need to make an apples-to-apples comparasion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the SOE parser shows a ranger at 1500dps where and outside one logs him at 1100dps. I will accept the fact that rangers are in the right spot, but you need to help us see that it is because there is a big discrepancy between the tools. And I'm not talking about being in range to log everyone, with this sort of delta (and not just to rangers) there is something fundamentally different going on with the data we are collecting and the data SOE is collecting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And in the case you can reproduce those high numbers w/ an outside parser, I think I would have to have group setup and log access to really believe it. I would want explainantions for the other classes being low. I would want confirmation that pets were named at their owners. I know it's asking alot, and I'm sure we won't get that, but I'm really boggled by this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Katsugen</DIV>

Ranvarenaya

07-31-2006, 08:36 PM

Absolutely, a Swash has more utility than a ranger, I wouldn't challenge that at all. However, I don't think an Assassin has the same utility advantage over a Ranger. If a Ranger can do Assassin type dps and has Assassin type utility, then things are cool. If a Ranger has Assassin-type utility and can't keep up with a Swash in dps, then I agree, there isn't a reason to bring a Ranger. My only reason for that last post was to offer the argument that Ranger vs. Assassin utility is fairly balanced. The DPS thing of course, is the hotly debated and unsettled issue.<div></div>

Pins

07-31-2006, 08:38 PM

<blockquote><hr>Katsugen wrote:<DIV>Perhaps I miss read some where but did Lockeye say the numbers he was showing were from some sort of SOE internal parser? If this is the case, and stop me if I'm wrong, but this is HUGE!!! If there is this sort of huge discrepancy between outside parsers and internal SOE parses we have a serious issue. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are going to feed us internal parses that we can't replicate, then I would want to see external parses side by side for the exact same fights, heck you can even go back and pull from your log the same fight. Your conclusion is based on a parser that the player base does not have access to. We need to make an apples-to-apples comparasion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the SOE parser shows a ranger at 1500dps where and outside one logs him at 1100dps. I will accept the fact that rangers are in the right spot, but you need to help us see that it is because there is a big discrepancy between the tools. And I'm not talking about being in range to log everyone, with this sort of delta (and not just to rangers) there is something fundamentally different going on with the data we are collecting and the data SOE is collecting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And in the case you can reproduce those high numbers w/ an outside parser, I think I would have to have group setup and log access to really believe it. I would want explainantions for the other classes being low. I would want confirmation that pets were named at their owners. I know it's asking alot, and I'm sure we won't get that, but I'm really boggled by this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Katsugen</DIV><hr></blockquote> Looking from the way his parses were posted, he is obviously using ACT(Advanced Combat Tracker) to do his parsing from the ones he showed. The thing is, what style of DPS is the 1500? Is it 1500 while the encounter was engaged, or 1500 while the ranger was attacking? This is why people are semi-confused about some parses in comparison to others. Because they don't take a look at the whole story and just assume "oh parsers are broken they don't work properly because I don't want to waste my time looking into exact specifics about how they work." Again, this is also why I wanted to know about time between pulls. In fact, I'd be willing to re-parse Halls of Seeing, include all the wipes, include every second of time that was spent between pulls and show a parse of that, so we can see how all classes compare in total amount of time.

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 08:46 PM

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Again, this is also why I wanted to know about time between pulls. In fact, I'd be willing to re-parse Halls of Seeing, include all the wipes, include every second of time that was spent between pulls and show a parse of that, so we can see how all classes compare in total amount of time.<hr></blockquote>So we add 5-10minutes to our zone wide parse and call it a day? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Sirlutt

07-31-2006, 09:02 PM

you cant compare different parses from different groups and draw any solid conclusions. There is just too much you dont know. Cmon guys, get off the parse comparing already, it doesnt prove anything at all.This is why the parses are useless :"Experimentation is the process of testing a hypothesis. The things that have an effect on the experiment are called variables. There are three kinds of variables that you need to identify in your experiments: independent, dependent, and controlled. <p>The <b>independent variable</b> is the variable you purposely manipulate (change) (<font color="#ff0000">Ranger and Assassin</font>). The <b>dependent variable</b> is the variable that is being observed (<font color="#ff0000">DPS</font>), which changes in response to the independent variable. The variables that are not changed are called <b>controlled variables. (<font color="#ff0000">Everything else, and this is the stuff that isnt the same between your parses</font>.)"</b></p><p>This is basic primary school science guys. Comparing the parses is the endevour of idiots in situations other than under controlled condiitions and and argument ersulting from them is extremely amusing.</p><p>On the other hand, a few ARE getting the point that the deficiencies in the Ranger class are Utility, and their reliance on an expensive consumable item like arrows to do remotely adequate DPS. Focus on fixing that rather than arguing sillyness around parses.</p><div></div>

Zodi

07-31-2006, 09:04 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks Lockeye!!!</P> <P>1) It shows you guys are tracking the data from a NEUTRAL standpoint.</P> <P><BR> </P>

Spite

07-31-2006, 09:05 PM

<P>To me the discrepency of the parses is easy. It is very easy to get a ranger's DPS to about their optimal. You really seem to get deminished returned by putting them in a DPS group over true melee classes. So server and group wide you will see there numbers elevated above other classes it take more talented raid/group construction. Which is why you need to look at high/medium end raiding to really see the numbers difference.</P> <P> </P> <P>While there is definatly bad elements to high end raid guild (egos mostly), the min/maxing the is done there should paint a better picture of what a class is capable of top end (not just what it can do with no support). SO use all the server wide parses you want, a few from a high end raid guild hold more value. Now dont use this to make your heads any bigger than they are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

Ranvarenaya

07-31-2006, 09:06 PM

<div></div><div></div>Just to stir the pot a little, here's an ancillary topic for debate:If we use an Assassin as a baseline for t1 dps and apply a number, say '100%' or arbitrarily use 1000 dps (because it's a nice round number) just for an example, where do we think other classes <i>should</i> fall in relation to that over the long-term?If an Assassin is 1000, should ranger be 1000, 950, 900?Brigands/Swashbucklers should be scaled down from that as a function of their increased utility, but would we expect 850, 800, 750? and etc.,I know there are piles of mitigating circumstances, variations in zones/mobs/lengths of time, I'm just thinking in the abstract and theoretical. I don't recall an official position from the 'dps tier' posts, so maybe an obstacle to our agreement is that the ratio of dps for Rogue: Predator is such that it outweighs and Rogue: Predator utility differences. (Meaning rogue dps is closer to predator dps than pred utility is to rogue utility, which is something I think a lot of people believe, even if Rangers are capable of Assassin dps)<div></div><p>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <span class="date_text">07-31-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:07 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 PM</span>

Sirlutt

07-31-2006, 09:08 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:Just to stir the pot a little, here's an ancillary topic for debate:If we use an Assassin as a baseline for t1 dps and apply a number, say '100%' or arbitrarily use 1000 dps (because it's a nice round number) just for an example, where do we think other classes <i>should</i> fall in relation to that over the long-term?If an Assassin is 1000, should ranger be 1000, 950, 900?Brigands/Swashbucklers should be scaled down from that as a function of their increased utility, but would we expect 850, 800, 750? and etc.,I know there are piles of mitigating circumstances, variations in zones/mobs/lengths of time, I'm just thinking in the abstract and theoretical. I don't recall an official position from the 'dps tier' posts, so maybe an obstacle to our agreement is that the ratio of dps for Rogue<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />redator is such that it outweighs and Rogue<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />redator utility differences. (Which is something I think a lot of people believe, even if Rangers are capable of Assassin dps)<div></div><hr></blockquote>They scrapped the DPS tier, it was amistake to even state it.The problem with that is under what condictions ?.. DPs is extremely situational .. what kind of mob.. what debuffs are applied.. what timers are up.. etc etc etc.. its just as futile as comparing parses.</div>

Zodi

07-31-2006, 09:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arkkon wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Lockeye if there is anything i want you to read its this.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A ranger will only get the top dps or average dps on a raid if the other members on that raid who are summoners and rogues arent at least doing average dps. This means that they are doing less than what they could be doing. If you assume that a top ww guild is going to have every member be able to fill out their class role to a point then you can assume that any information gained from them will be very near to accurate. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want damage i want dps Meow Mix Meow Mix please deliver.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lets play this with a twist. Maybe the reason rangers are not doing top tier dps is because they got so used to their high AA DPS prio LU # 13. Maybe it is time people start buying decent arrows, dust out the CA keys and get to work.</P> <P>GL</P>

Lexan

07-31-2006, 09:09 PM

<DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~elleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone still question why i play the zerker over the ranger?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: btw i was in defencive stance 85% of this zone tanking.....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lexani- on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:10 AM</span>

Pins

07-31-2006, 09:13 PM

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div>They scrapped the DPS tier, it was amistake to even state it.The problem with that is under what condictions ?.. DPs is extremely situational .. what kind of mob.. what debuffs are applied.. what timers are up.. etc etc etc.. its just as futile as comparing parses.</div><hr></blockquote>Did they really scrap DPS tiers? I mean Lockeye seems to think they haven't.<blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div><p>Despite the perception issues that have persisted since the Ranger balance changes to their DPS rankings, Rangers are performing very well in DPS across all categories. I constantly analyze data between solo, groups and raids of various sizes across all classes, and Rangers are performing between ranks 1-4 in DPS in all size categories, <b>T1 DPS</b>).</p><hr></blockquote>Which to me, means they haven't scrapped the DPS tiers, but rather they are working on using them in a different way than initially stated.

Sirlutt

07-31-2006, 09:14 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Lexani- wrote:<div></div> <div><img src="http://home.comcast.net/%7Eelleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Anyone still question why i play the zerker over the ranger?</div> <div> </div> <div>Edit: btw i was in defencive stance 85% of this zone tanking.....</div><p>Message Edited by Lexani- on <span class="date_text">07-31-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:10 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>nope.. you suck as a ranger.. we all see it now.. thanks for pointing it out <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :-p</div>

Ranvarenaya

07-31-2006, 09:16 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:Just to stir the pot a little, here's an ancillary topic for debate:If we use an Assassin as a baseline for t1 dps and apply a number, say '100%' or arbitrarily use 1000 dps (because it's a nice round number) just for an example, where do we think other classes <i>should</i> fall in relation to that over the long-term?If an Assassin is 1000, should ranger be 1000, 950, 900?Brigands/Swashbucklers should be scaled down from that as a function of their increased utility, but would we expect 850, 800, 750? and etc.,<font color="#cc0066">I know there are piles of mitigating circumstances, variations in zones/mobs/lengths of time, I'm just thinking in the abstract and theoretical.</font> I don't recall an official position from the 'dps tier' posts, so maybe an obstacle to our agreement is that the ratio of dps for Rogue<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />redator is such that it outweighs and Rogue<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />redator utility differences. (Which is something I think a lot of people believe, even if Rangers are capable of Assassin dps)<div></div><hr></blockquote>They scrapped the DPS tier, it was amistake to even state it.The problem with that is under what condictions ?.. DPs is extremely situational .. what kind of mob.. what debuffs are applied.. what timers are up.. etc etc etc.. its just as futile as comparing parses.</div><hr></blockquote>I expected that the first response to this would be 'dps tiers don't exist anymore and parses are situational so your post is meaningless,' so I purposely constructed my statement to address that and attempt to engage a non-empirical discussion./sigh, I give up</div>

USAFJeeper

07-31-2006, 09:23 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zodian wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Lets play this with a twist. Maybe the reason rangers are not doing top tier dps is because they got so used to their high AA DPS prio LU # 13. Maybe it is time people start buying decent arrows, dust out the CA keys and get to work.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>GL</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>WOW! Thanks! I never would have considered that! You are a lifesaver!<BR>

BSbon

07-31-2006, 09:26 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Korben wrote:<BR> I think something is broken with this "serverwide" parsing tool... :smileymad:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>it probablly counts all those auto attack 1 shots of the moat rats i kill while running around. did you know those parse as infinity?

Lexan

07-31-2006, 09:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/%7Eelleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone still question why i play the zerker over the ranger?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: btw i was in defencive stance 85% of this zone tanking.....</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lexani- on <SPAN class=date_text>07-31-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:10 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>nope.. you suck as a ranger.. we all see it now.. thanks for pointing it out <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :-p<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmmm must be................ You'd think with the full fabled and complete master list in my ca book i wouldn't suck so bad............. Well maybe you can hook me up with where you find your leet gear on your assassin and guardian........ Dosent really look like it comes from raiding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

vinterskugge

07-31-2006, 09:33 PM

<DIV>Lockeye, this is a serious offer if you want to see it from a raid guild's perspective. Come along with us on one of our raids and you'll be able to see the gap between ragers and other dps classes firsthand. We raid at times you're probably in the office anyway so you'd still get your evening free!</DIV>

Ixnay

07-31-2006, 09:33 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~elleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone still question why i play the zerker over the ranger?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: btw i was in defencive stance 85% of this zone tanking.....<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We could prolly keep you up in offensive full time, but think about how much that would suck for the healers.</P> <P>Then, I would have to heal =p<BR></P>

Lexan

07-31-2006, 09:35 PM

<DIV>Lockeye your welcome to come with us anytime you want aswell. I will let you play axkiva in our raids even !!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=110868107" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=110868107</A></DIV>

Ranvarenaya

07-31-2006, 09:47 PM

<div></div>I would be really interested to see what Axkiva could do on say a zone-wide DT parse. It would give me an idea of my potential, as I'm probably close in gear but still need:Rain of ArrowsTriple VolleyAmazing ShotSniper's ShotPrecise ShotStream of ArrowsI don't think I've ever had 100% haste/100% dps, and never been full-fabled/full-mastered, so Axkiva would be better able to see what max dps would/could be.P.S.: yes, I am shamelessly baiting you to come out of retirement for my own indulgence<div></div><p>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

Lexan

07-31-2006, 09:51 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR> I would be really interested to see what Axkiva could do on say a zone-wide DT parse. It would give me an idea of my potential, as I'm probably close in gear but still need:<BR>Rain of Arrows<BR>Triple Volley<BR>Amazing Shot<BR>Sniper's Shot<BR>Precise Shot<BR>Stream of Arrows<BR>I don't think I've ever had 100% haste/100% dps, and never been full-fabled/full-mastered, so Axkiva would be better able to see what max dps would/could be.<BR><BR>P.S.: yes, I am shamelessly baiting you to come out of retirement for my own indulgence<BR> <P>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <SPAN class=date_text>07-31-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ahhh but axkiva has to tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

Sirlutt

07-31-2006, 09:54 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Lexani- wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Lexani- wrote: <div></div> <div><img src="http://home.comcast.net/%7Eelleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Anyone still question why i play the zerker over the ranger?</div> <div> </div> <div>Edit: btw i was in defencive stance 85% of this zone tanking.....</div> <p>Message Edited by Lexani- on <span class="date_text">07-31-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:10 AM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>nope.. you suck as a ranger.. we all see it now.. thanks for pointing it out <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :-p</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Hmmm must be................ You'd think with the full fabled and complete master list in my ca book i wouldn't suck so bad............. Well maybe you can hook me up with where you find your leet gear on your assassin and guardian........ Dosent really look like it comes from raiding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><hr>spend some of your "OMG I am so ubah look at meeeeee" DKP on a sense of humor next time.I especially love the justification you guys give alot that raiding in EQ2 makes you something special.. step outside the game a bit and take alook around.. your no better than anyone else.. lol.. in fact you probably neglect alot of real life things to get your uber loot.. i'm fine with taking time off from playing to spend quality time with my wife, teach my son something or finnish something for work. I raid as much as i want to. Even if i had alot more time, I am pretty sure i could find something more useful than spending time amassing a bunch of pixels on a screen and pretending it meant more than it did. LOL.. oh noes.. you have more time than other people.. quick show us your ubah stuffs.. i am sure not all of Disso is like you.. and i know not all of the more hardcore guilds are, but your attitude is extremely amusing when taken in context with what some other members of society do with their time. Try gettin off the computer and doing something for someone else in real life and show me up that way, but posting about your E-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is just lame.</blockquote></div>

Pins

07-31-2006, 10:00 PM

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div>spend some of your "OMG I am so ubah look at meeeeee" DKP on a sense of humor next time.I especially love the justification you guys give alot that raiding in EQ2 makes you something special.. step outside the game a bit and take alook around.. your no better than anyone else.. lol.. in fact you probably neglect alot of real life things to get your uber loot.. i'm fine with taking time off from playing to spend quality time with my wife, teach my son something or finnish something for work. I raid as much as i want to. Even if i had alot more time, I am pretty sure i could find something more useful than spending time amassing a bunch of pixels on a screen and pretending it meant more than it did. LOL.. oh noes.. you have more time than other people.. quick show us your ubah stuffs..i am sure not all of Disso is like you.. and i know not all of the more hardcore guilds are, but your attitude is extremely amusing when taken in context with what some other members of society do with their time. Try gettin off the computer and doing something for someone else in real life and show me up that way, but posting about your E-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is just lame.</div><hr></blockquote>Hey, I'm sure a lot of casual players aren't like you either. But please, lay off the insults and lets keep this thread where it's meant to be. Seriously, go take your anti-raider-self out of the picture, and focus on the problem here. Rangers are the problem. Not DKP, not raiding, not hardcore, not casual, not anything else, but Rangers. Let's focus on the thing we all want to get fixed, not other, outside issues.<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

Prandtl

07-31-2006, 10:02 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>i am sure not all of Disso is like you.. and i know not all of the more hardcore guilds are, but your attitude is extremely amusing when taken in context with what some other members of society do with their time. <STRONG>Try gettin off the computer</STRONG> and doing something for someone else in real life and show me up that way, but posting about your E-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is just lame.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sirlutt - 1535 posts</P> <P>Doctor heal thyself!!</P>

Lexan

07-31-2006, 10:03 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <DIV><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/%7Eelleffgee/lyceum.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone still question why i play the zerker over the ranger?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: btw i was in defencive stance 85% of this zone tanking.....</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lexani- on <SPAN class=date_text>07-31-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:10 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>nope.. you suck as a ranger.. we all see it now.. thanks for pointing it out <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> :-p<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmmm must be................ You'd think with the full fabled and complete master list in my ca book i wouldn't suck so bad............. Well maybe you can hook me up with where you find your leet gear on your assassin and guardian........ Dosent really look like it comes from raiding <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><BR> <HR> <BR>spend some of your "OMG I am so ubah look at meeeeee" DKP on a sense of humor next time.<BR><BR>I especially love the justification you guys give alot that raiding in EQ2 makes you something special.. step outside the game a bit and take alook around.. your no better than anyone else.. lol.. in fact you probably neglect alot of real life things to get your uber loot.. i'm fine with taking time off from playing to spend quality time with my wife, teach my son something or finnish something for work. I raid as much as i want to. Even if i had alot more time, I am pretty sure i could find something more useful than spending time amassing a bunch of pixels on a screen and pretending it meant more than it did.<BR><BR> LOL.. oh noes.. you have more time than other people.. quick show us your ubah stuffs..<BR><BR>i am sure not all of Disso is like you.. and i know not all of the more hardcore guilds are, but your attitude is extremely amusing when taken in context with what some other members of society do with their time. Try gettin off the computer and doing something for someone else in real life and show me up that way, but posting about your E-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] is just lame.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You attacked me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> As im not going to sit here and tell you about what my "real life" entails and how much money i make and how many times i go outside. I will tell you this im not a child and i run a company that caries 18million worth of inventory... Just because when i play a game for fun im good at it dosent mean im a 12 year old kid that lives in his basement lol.</P> <P>Whats funny is you have posted the most comon arguements of all eq2 time. </P> <P>1. You suck at your class.</P> <P>2. You dont have a real life.</P> <P>Thank you come again!!!</P> <P>If you want to joke around and have fun thats all fine and good. I'll respect you on the fact that your posting to "have a sense of humor" I want rangers to be looked at in this game not to joke around...........</P>

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 10:07 PM

<div></div>"spend some of your "OMG I am so ubah look at meeeeee" DKP on a sense of humor next time.I especially love the justification you guys give alot that raiding in EQ2 makes you something special.. step outside the game a bit and take alook around.. your no better than anyone else.. lol.. in fact you probably neglect alot of real life things to get your uber loot.. i'm fine with taking time off from playing to spend quality time with my wife, teach my son something or finnish something for work. I raid as much as i want to. Even if i had alot more time, I am pretty sure i could find something more useful than spending time amassing a bunch of pixels on a screen and pretending it meant more than it did."I have been waiting a long time for you to make these comments so I can say this... Why are you contributing to a raid discussion if you cannot see things first hand? The rangers that are debating this have been going around asking what every other rangers dps is (I do that all the time) - to try and find the ranger who does the highest dps to prove in our own minds we are wrong to put our minds at rest.. We are looking for parsings, and data that prove us wrong, we are looking for top end guilds that say "we want rangers in our guild just as much as assassins".. Unfortunatly, the top guilds in the game dont want the ranger class because of things they have seen first hand.. Even in the best rangers..Dissolusion keeps fighting our battle because of there own conclusions and what they see in the top end of the game.. So does second dawn, etc.. I dont hear the any of the top 5 guilds saying otherwise. Or being able to prove otherwise.And since you want to go bashing raiders in reallife, it really shows your own mental maturity.. Raiders havent commented anything about your real life, wich could be in any state.. None of us know or care, we all have lives and great ones.. Many of us find it more entertaining to put there brain to work each night, and find out "ok how do I kill this", or just the simple math on timers than watching TV.. Good raiders dont take to long, the part that takes the longest is taking things off the ground.. Most of us have mates to deal with, while they are watching TV, on the phone ETC.. We are on the computer raiding.. Its just a matter of choice of what you want to do with your time.<div></div><p>Message Edited by LoreLady on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 10:10 PM

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div>Im dumb!</div></blockquote><hr>I would love to see a zone wide parse of a ranger doing 1500 dps. Then you factor in that ax was in defensive for most of that his zone wide would have been higher yet. Ok, so lets put a ranger in defensive and see them zone wide parse 1500 dps. Not possible. Ok next time try thinking before you speak Sirlutt because you really only helped the rest of us see how clueless you really are.

Lexan

07-31-2006, 10:13 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Im dumb!<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR><BR><BR>I would love to see a zone wide parse of a ranger doing 1500 dps. Then you factor in that ax was in defensive for most of that his zone wide would have been higher yet. Ok, so lets put a ranger in defensive and see them zone wide parse 1500 dps. Not possible. Ok next time try thinking before you speak Sirlutt because you really only helped the rest of us see how clueless you really are.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ishbu since i know you live in your parents basement. Can you make me a bright and pretty forum sig <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Findara

07-31-2006, 10:14 PM

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] some of the conj and necros in thoes parses really suck. I wish I kept the parses from last night HoS, I dont think I got less than 1400 on any name...<div></div>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 10:15 PM

I cant, Im only 10 years old and I spend all my non eq2 time looking for the job everyone says I need to get. What I can do is see if Jenn is bored and wants to make you one...send me a PM with what you want on it. She hammers them out pretty fast.

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 10:15 PM

<blockquote><hr>Findarato wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] some of the conj and necros in thoes parses really suck. I wish I kept the parses from last night HoS, I dont think I got less than 1400 on any name...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Id love to see your parses while the raid is engaged and your in firefox updating the dkp site, awarding loot, and everything else.EDIT - Although, I only missed minimal time in the lyceum zone wide parse. So if you can take a zone wide parse of lyceum and beat my dps, Id like to see it. Honestly.<p>Message Edited by Ishboozor on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

Lexan

07-31-2006, 10:17 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>I cant, Im only 10 years old and I spend all my non eq2 time looking for the job everyone says I need to get. What I can do is see if Jenn is bored and wants to make you one...send me a PM with what you want on it. She hammers them out pretty fast.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I want a Bordelo of Female Erudites all half naked <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Straylig

07-31-2006, 10:38 PM

In my guild's particular situation, our parses show that when everyone is 'doing their best,' you'll see a Ranger, Assassin, Wizard, Conjuror, or Necro at the top of the parses pretty much every time. Depending on the situation/mob, the top spot will sometimes fluctuate, but the Ranger stays up there most of the time and the real fight is usually for places 2-5. Slots 1-5 are usually only separated from 1-250 dps across the board.DPS is situational depending on the raid or mob you're hitting, but what we see overall is our Rangers are pretty much consistently on top.That being said, our 'uber secret' group makeup for this is usually a Templar, Wizard, Ranger, Ranger, Troubador, and a Conj/Berserker/Dirge/Assassin/etc for the last spot.Not trying to start/fan flames, just trying to provide data that might help.

Kenazeer

07-31-2006, 10:43 PM

I think, in the interest of good science of course :smileywink:, you all should list your exact group setups, buffs used, and...uhmmm...strategies for each of the T7 zones.

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 10:44 PM

<blockquote><hr>Straylight wrote:In my guild's particular situation, our parses show that when everyone is 'doing their best,' you'll see a Ranger, Assassin, Wizard, Conjuror, or Necro at the top of the parses pretty much every time. Depending on the situation/mob, the top spot will sometimes fluctuate, but the Ranger stays up there most of the time and the real fight is usually for places 2-5. Slots 1-5 are usually only separated from 1-250 dps across the board.DPS is situational depending on the raid or mob you're hitting, but what we see overall is our Rangers are pretty much consistently on top.That being said, our 'uber secret' group makeup for this is usually a Templar, Wizard, Ranger, Ranger, Troubador, and a Conj/Berserker/Dirge/Assassin/etc for the last spot.Not trying to start/fan flames, just trying to provide data that might help.<hr></blockquote>Lets just assume you have all those classes that got slashed for the last spot in the dps group.A better group set up would be troub, wizard, assassin, ranger, conjuror, ANY healer other than a templar for the love of god. Templars are probably the worst dps group healer there is. If you have an inquisitor, use them. A fury is great as well. Jesus just not a templar.

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 10:45 PM

<blockquote><hr>Kenazeer wrote:I think, in the interest of good science of course :smileywink:, you all should list your exact group setups, buffs used, and...uhmmm...strategies for each of the T7 zones.<hr></blockquote>Group set ups = tank group, dps group, second dps group with whomever we have on. If we ever have a full raid Ill let you know on the 4th group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Strategy - Tank mob with tank while healers heal and dps dps's. Its not that hard really.

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 10:56 PM

Hell Axkiva, if he's on a different account I'll come to a lyceum raid and play axk and parse with you guys to see what can be done <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 10:57 PM

<blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:Hell Axkiva, if he's on a different account I'll come to a lyceum raid and play axk and parse with you guys to see what can be done <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>Ill even give you skratch's slot....next sunday...

Gaige

07-31-2006, 11:01 PM

<P>No way, I can't raid with Khalan. Khalan is guilded with Phayax who has cooties, and if I raid with Khalan I'll get cooties. Then I'll not be able to touch my computer for fear of cootizing it.</P> <P>J/K.</P>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 11:03 PM

Ok then Khalan can have gaige's spot and Ill just switch the groups around.

Pins

07-31-2006, 11:05 PM

<blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:Ok then Khalan can have gaige's spot and Ill just switch the groups around.<hr></blockquote>You mean, we have to rely on Dlisk to be online? *joy*

Lexan

07-31-2006, 11:05 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> Hell Axkiva, if he's on a different account I'll come to a lyceum raid and play axk and parse with you guys to see what can be done <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You cant 3box if there not on diffrent accounts silly <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> How am i gonna make the ubber plat ..........

LoreLady

07-31-2006, 11:07 PM

Then let me step up to the plate <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Just hope you dont mind all your hotkeys being rearranged <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Spite

07-31-2006, 11:10 PM

<DIV>Does DLisk still have the slowest zone times in EQ2 history or did he finnaly upgrade his TSR80 and 9600 connection?</DIV>

Ishbu

07-31-2006, 11:10 PM

<blockquote><hr>FiftyK wrote:<DIV>Does DLisk still have the slowest zone times in EQ2 history or did he finnaly upgrade his TSR80 and 9600 connection?</DIV><hr></blockquote>He would have to login for me to answer that.

Lexan

07-31-2006, 11:13 PM

<DIV>You know ishbu if they ever do fix rangers your going to have to find a zerker who can average 1400-1500 dps zone wide <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Carna

07-31-2006, 11:13 PM

You manage to pull the lead mechanics designer into a discussion to the point where he's posting parse data and the best you can do is reduce the thread to this? Talk about wasted opportunity... I hope everybody had a good giggle.<div></div>

vinterskugge

07-31-2006, 11:15 PM

<DIV>Can I play Angua? No reason, I just want to join in the fun!</DIV>

Pins

07-31-2006, 11:15 PM

<blockquote><hr>Carnagh wrote:You manage to pull the lead mechanics designer into a discussion to the point where he's posting parse data and the best you can do is reduce the thread to this? Talk about wasted opportunity... I hope everybody had a good giggle.<div></div><hr></blockquote>It's kinda hard to get it to be anything else, because once we've posted our thoughts, it's all wait around till we get another response, which generally seems to take about 12-15 hours, so expect this drabble to continue until then!

Pins

07-31-2006, 11:15 PM

<blockquote><hr>Findarato wrote:[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] some of the conj and necros in thoes parses really suck. I wish I kept the parses from last night HoS, I dont think I got less than 1400 on any name...<div></div><hr></blockquote>Why not just re-create them with the log files and importing them into ACT?

MystaSkrat

07-31-2006, 11:16 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Carnagh wrote:<BR>You manage to pull the lead mechanics designer into a discussion to the point where he's posting parse data <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Parse data where noone but a ranger got over 1200 DPS on named mobs. It's no wonder people have questions about it.

Lexan

07-31-2006, 11:16 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <DIV>Can I play Angua? No reason, I just want to join in the fun!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Better yet we need a second troub! Why dont you app <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tseri

07-31-2006, 11:22 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zodian wrote:<BR> <BR> <P><BR>Lets play this with a twist. Maybe the reason rangers are not doing top tier dps is because they got so used to their high AA DPS prio LU # 13. Maybe it is time people start buying decent arrows, dust out the CA keys and get to work.</P> <P>GL</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually. The high DPS was after LU13 and prior to AA's.</P> <P> </P> <P>And try this one on. Reclaimed arrows are teir appropriate. (Adamantine) The arrows we buy are teir appropriate. I'd bet my account that most of us raiding use Grandmaster Poisons and know exactly how to use our CA's -and- have optimum setup of 50 AA points.</P> <P> </P> <P>Before you start shooting your mouth off about things you know nothing about why don't you read around the forums a bit and get to know what the raiding rangers use, it's there if you put a few minutes of effort into it.</P>

vinterskugge

07-31-2006, 11:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <BR>Better yet we need a second troub! Why dont you app <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We have scandinavian girls in this guild - unless you can do the accent I'll be staying over here.

Gareorn

07-31-2006, 11:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>i'm fine with taking time off from playing to spend quality time with my wife, teach my son something or finnish something for work. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The heck with that! They're on their own until I figure out how to top the guild Swashy's DPS. I'm a forty... err.. something kid hiding out in my wife's basement until I can figure out how to parse 1400+ DPS ever since the smartest devs in the world told me that should be my average.:smileytongue:<BR>

Spite

07-31-2006, 11:50 PM

Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.

Gareorn

07-31-2006, 11:52 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Cool. Sounds fun.

ChaosUndivided

07-31-2006, 11:57 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> vinterskugge wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <BR>Better yet we need a second troub! Why dont you app <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We have scandinavian girls in this guild - unless you can do the accent I'll be staying over here.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>[Removed for Content], I think you guys want to recruit khalan. Um yeah cause rangers are so uber.

vinterskugge

08-01-2006, 12:00 AM

<DIV>Betray and then we'll talk!</DIV>

Deml

08-01-2006, 12:00 AM

<DIV>Ok, spent all day reading through this thread and I think most people reading this can agree that the best results we could hope to show for where a Ranger really stands is wait to see what numbers come out of Khalan running Axkiva for a Disso raid. You then get folks who know what they are doing, in group setups for killing things quick and a very well equipped ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think Lore made one very valid point earlier. If you notice, a lot of the people agreeing and helping support the arguement that rangers in the high end raid environment are lacking, don't play rangers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd love to post parses and data from what I pull on raids but the info I have is incomplete. The guild I'm in doesn't have a raiding assassin and rarely has a conjurer on the raids. We do have a zerker, warlock and swashies that can match/beat me on dps a lot of the time though. The Zerker, when not tanking, beats me on DPS just from his ichorstrand alone, and I have the Ancient Sarnak bow from Venekor. Double attack is a wonderful thing I guess. lol</DIV>

Saeldar

08-01-2006, 12:03 AM

It's kinda sad. There is no way for Lockeye to "win" here unless he says what people want him to say.I am not saying everyone is wrong and he's right, just that everyone has a preconceived notion and nothing he could say or do will change it...wether it's true or not.People asked for a parse...and he posted one. Now people question it. Wanting to know group makeup etc...Well who cares...lets just go by the assumption that the group make up was optimal...which is probably what the group make up are for any parse posted here with people at the top. I seriously doubt any of the assassin or conjurers that parse at the top are in anything less then an optimal group set up.Also don't compare the actual numbers of a parse vs the numbers of a different parse(meaning different raid). It's seem obvious to me that the raid that Lockeye parse is nowhere near the power level of the Dissolution parses...they take almost twice as much to kill stuff. That's not a single ranger's fault btw. Just different players, and different power level. You cannot truly compare the ranking...since it doesn't even tell how each player is equipped compared to the others...Maybe the ranger in Lockeye's raid has the best ranger gear in the game, while the assassin doesn't. There are just way too many variables to consider.The only way to know would be to have Lockeye play in a ranger in a raid guild that would post their parse...personally I think that's asking too much.The other thing is this, the "perceived" issue with ranger DPS is apparent only in the top 5% guild that do everything to maximize DPS...where getting a class that could do 5DPS more then another is enough to ignore the one that does less. Should the entire game be balanced for those top 5% raiding guild? Lockeye has said often enough that rangers average are at the top. Ranger I play with is more often then in the top ranking...if ranger get a boost she'd be #1 all the time under all circumstances.If there is a problem...it's that under totally optimized raiding...ranger cannot be increased as easily as other classes can...is it a problem...maybe, does it make the class broken...I doubt it. Could it be tweaked in a way that doesn't affect the rest of the game where the ranger seems fine without overpowering them? I don't know.

Pins

08-01-2006, 12:10 AM

<blockquote><hr>Valderen wrote:The only way to know would be to have Lockeye play in a ranger in a raid guild that would post their parse...personally I think that's asking too much.<hr></blockquote>So, basically you're saying that we have no possibility of showing an un-biased parse because we're asking for too much in the fact that we want the class fixed?<blockquote><hr> The other thing is this, the "perceived" issue with ranger DPS is apparent only in the top 5% guild that do everything to maximize DPS...where getting a class that could do 5DPS more then another is enough to ignore the one that does less. Should the entire game be balanced for those top 5% raiding guild? <hr></blockquote>The difference is not 5DPS. We're talking about, roughly, a 10% dps difference. That is not a small difference. But anyway, shouldn't the game be balanced at every level? Plus, there are ways to improve Ranger DPS in high-end raids, while not making them unbeatable in DPS.

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 12:12 AM

<blockquote><hr>FiftyK wrote:Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.<hr></blockquote>Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.

Spite

08-01-2006, 12:22 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Valderen wrote:<BR>The only way to know would be to have Lockeye play in a ranger in a raid guild that would post their parse...personally I think that's asking too much. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>So, basically you're saying that we have no possibility of showing an un-biased parse because we're asking for too much in the fact that we want the class fixed?<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> The other thing is this, the "perceived" issue with ranger DPS is apparent only in the top 5% guild that do everything to maximize DPS...where getting a class that could do 5DPS more then another is enough to ignore the one that does less. Should the entire game be balanced for those top 5% raiding guild? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>The difference is not 5DPS. We're talking about, roughly, a 10% dps difference. That is not a small difference. But anyway, shouldn't the game be balanced at every level? Plus, there are ways to improve Ranger DPS in high-end raids, while not making them unbeatable in DPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Even if we over look the 10% DPS deficit (more like 15% IMHO but its all good), the class still bring nothing else to the table. Rangers as a whole package leave a lot to be desired raid wise. Thats the WHOLE point and The All-Seeing Lockeye posting raw numbers means IMHO he too is blind to it.

griffit

08-01-2006, 12:23 AM

As the thread progresses the more it seems likely that Rangers can parse up there with the other big boys on a raid given certain conditions.<b>1)</b> That they have a decent bow. Which are as rare as hens teeth.<b>2)</b> That they purchase appropriate tier arrows. Which will cost an arm and a leg, still no 'long promised' fix from SOE<b>3) </b>If you only look at boss fights. Our CA timers are more unevenly spaced compared to our Assassin brethern (a fact that I can personally attest too as a ranger that betrayed) so if you look at the overall picture we have much more variation in dps from fight to fight compared to an Assassin. That variation is where I believe a lot of that supposed 20-30% dps difference comes in. I might do the same dps or better for one fight and then be 3rd or 4th spot for the next 2 fights while I wait for CA to become active.<b>4) </b>They work like a dog for it.Which still begs the question, why play a Ranger? Other than some sense of sentimentality towards the class itself like that expressed by Jay42? If you can play an Assassin and get the similar too or better dps with less work and without the dependance on expensive arrows then whats the point? Or play a Swashy or Brig who have been shown to do similar dps given the gear and effort put in, who also have the utility.Perhaps giving us the Easy dps button might not be the answer. However there are somethings that DEFINTELY need to be addressed. The whole arrow issue, we know SOE is looking into it. They have been looking into it for the better part of 2006, with no hope of seeing a fix until EoF release in November or beyond, that is one long long wait. Also as other mentioned, bow drops. 2h dps drops pretty regularly, their range equivalents are extremely hard to find. Which definitely effects ranger dps since the effort put into getting a decent raid bow is so Bob damned high. I think the couple hundred responses to this thread show that there is indeed a problem, it might not require a DPS boost but there definitely factors that need to be taken into account and addressed.<div></div>

Spite

08-01-2006, 12:25 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. <BR><BR>In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. <BR>

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 12:31 AM

<blockquote><hr>FiftyK wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>FiftyK wrote:<BR>Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. <BR><BR>In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. <BR><hr></blockquote>My mistake then.

Spite

08-01-2006, 12:33 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>Ishboozor wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>FiftyK wrote:<BR><BR> Want 1400 DPS average - raid PPR. You'll still get spanked in a well set up raid.<BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Im a conjuror. I never get spanked on dps, period. <BR><BR>In PPR on those trash mobs I can hit upwards of 20k dps. That doesnt mean [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Thats a flurry of who can hit the right buttons the fastest. We are talking on real raids (read t7) that rangers dont even come close.<BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE>Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>My mistake then.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>NP. I would have specified T7 BTW if i could have thought of one.

Straylig

08-01-2006, 12:43 AM

Ishboo:In that group setup, I keep forgetting that the Templar is actually an Inquisitor now. I knew him so long as a Templar so that he'll always seem that way in my mind when I think of him. My bad. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(My fourth mistake ever. Give a guy a break.)

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 12:44 AM

Inquisitor makes a lot more sense <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Longtrang

08-01-2006, 12:57 AM

<P>Can I get in Lockeye's guild???? Please Please!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

xenocyst

08-01-2006, 01:22 AM

Just wanted to throw my 2c into this since it correlates what several people are saying. In my previous guild we had a ranger who parses very very high. In my current guild we do not. So as a fun little experiment we had my friend from my old guild play one of our rangers for a bit to see what happened. Interestingly enough, in general he was not able to put up the numbers that he and I both expected. The buff situation was poor in that particular raid but did not differer dramatically from normal raid groups on his character. So what happened? I think it's true that as skill scales up rangers start to fall behind.People have talked about damage potential and I think that's the key to the ranger problem. I'm really glad rangers parse so well in some cases, but after a parse of ~900 my friend sent me the following tell: "I get 1500 doing the exact same thing normally" so the potential just isn't scaling.<div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 01:22 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demlar wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ok, spent all day reading through this thread and I think most people reading this can agree that the best results we could hope to show for where a Ranger really stands is wait to see what numbers come out of Khalan running Axkiva for a Disso raid. You then get folks who know what they are doing, in group setups for killing things quick and a very well equipped ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think Lore made one very valid point earlier. If you notice, a lot of the people agreeing and helping support the arguement that rangers in the high end raid environment are lacking, don't play rangers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd love to post parses and data from what I pull on raids but the info I have is incomplete. The guild I'm in doesn't have a raiding assassin and rarely has a conjurer on the raids. We do have a zerker, warlock and swashies that can match/beat me on dps a lot of the time though. The Zerker, when not tanking, beats me on DPS just from his ichorstrand alone, and I have the Ancient Sarnak bow from Venekor. Double attack is a wonderful thing I guess. lol</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree, an unbiased fully fabled / mastered ranger played by a long time ranger from another top guild, mixed in with a guild that min/maxes will flush out any arguments one could make otherwise about ranger dps issues.</P> <P>I also dont have a full sample in the guild I raid with since there is no assasin, no brigand, we do however raid with a nec/conj/wizzie(me)/warlock/zerker/bruiser that can parse 2k.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>07-31-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

Crychtonn

08-01-2006, 01:28 AM

<P>Outside of the whole lack of good bow issue there is one other area that stands out like a sore thumb in why assassins, swashy and brigands can jump ahead of rangers so easy. It all comes back to that evil P word <EM>Proc's</EM>. Melee classes like these get crap loads of proc's that add to their DPS while rangers get very few.</P> <P>I keep meaning to but haven't done it yet make a list of all the numorous buff proc's all the classes in game give out. Listing all the ones that only work on melee attacks vs those that work on either melee or ranged. I'd love to compare in the ones that only work on ranged attacks but ya they don't exist. Assassins and rouges get Proc's galore when setup in raids. While rangers get Ember Seed and the one dirge buff that proc's on bows (forget the name).</P> <P> </P>

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 01:29 AM

It should be noted that Axkiva does not have a t7 fabled bow because we have always had bad luck and simply cant get them to drop.For example, guild on our server has killed tarinax 3times and has 2 bows and 1 satchel from him.We have killed tarinax every week since april and have 1 bow and 1 satchel.

Dirtgirl

08-01-2006, 01:38 AM

<FONT color=#ffcc66>The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....<BR>And Venekor dropped the scout BP for me, but alas no bow.</FONT>

Ixnay

08-01-2006, 01:40 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dirtgirl wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffcc66>The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....<BR></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My, what a coincidence! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

Ranvarenaya

08-01-2006, 01:41 AM

We have had poor luck on that bow also, in the first 15(i think) kills we got 1 satchel and zero bows. I got mine on 16 and our second on 17. Still, no character in our guild has a bow with a DR over 100 while we have piles of 100+ dr 2handers rot week after week.<div></div>

MystaSkrat

08-01-2006, 01:42 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dirtgirl wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffcc66>The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....<BR></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My, what a coincidence! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.

Katsugen

08-01-2006, 01:46 AM

<DIV>If you're gonna through up raw numbers that YOU know are gonna have people questioning them, then you have to give some sort or background on them. I think the real problem I'm having is that we aren't seeing high end raid parses w/ rangers that look anything like what Lockeye showed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the system is not broken then I would expect to see other parses that look like that. Just in this thread alone I can find multiple parses with Necro/Conj/Zerkers/Assassins/Wizzy's/Warlock/Swashys/Brigands all at the top. If what you say is true then I would expect to have seen just as many parses w/ rangers up at the top. Where are those parses?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm anxiously awaiting some guild that can show me a bunch of parses where the ranger is trouncing everyone. That's what Lockeye's data suggests, and that what I want to see. Then I'll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go back to trying to get better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Katsugen</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Snarks

08-01-2006, 01:47 AM

<blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ixnay wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Dirtgirl wrote: <div></div><font color="#ffcc66">The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....</font> <hr> </blockquote>My, what a coincidence! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <hr> </blockquote>For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.<hr></blockquote>/glances at the sarnak war bow rotting in bank yeah, I think we need more jewelry kthx<div></div>

Dirtgirl

08-01-2006, 01:51 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> snarkteeth wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/glances at the sarnak war bow rotting in bank<BR><BR>yeah, I think we need more jewelry kthx<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffcc66>Why Snark? Why do you have to torment me like this?</FONT><BR>

Gareorn

08-01-2006, 01:51 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FiftyK wrote:<BR> <BR>Umm..... I said the rangers will still get spanked. I was just answering the poster's question of where he can hit 1400 DPS as a ranger raid average. <BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It wasn't a question. It was an attempt at humor.:smileyhappy:<BR>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 02:02 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dirtgirl wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffcc66>The bow has dropped for us once from Tari, and our MT has it :smileysad: Don't ask.....<BR></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My, what a coincidence! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For the record, I was going to let that one go, but Ixnay brought it up! Tanks shouldn't be taking bows from scouts when there's only 3 in the whole of T7. [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]s.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>so you didn't get the bow eh?

MystaSkrat

08-01-2006, 02:02 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR>so you didn't get the bow eh?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway...</P>

Dirtgirl

08-01-2006, 02:04 AM

<FONT color=#ffcc66>No. I'll just say I wasn't in the zone at that particular point and leave it at that.</FONT>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 02:04 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Katsugen wrote:<div>If you're gonna through up raw numbers that YOU know are gonna have people questioning them, then you have to give some sort or background on them. I think the real problem I'm having is that we aren't seeing high end raid parses w/ rangers that look anything like what Lockeye showed. </div> <div> </div> <div>If the system is not broken then I would expect to see other parses that look like that. Just in this thread alone I can find multiple parses with Necro/Conj/Zerkers/Assassins/Wizzy's/Warlock/Swashys/Brigands all at the top. If what you say is true then I would expect to have seen just as many parses w/ rangers up at the top. Where are those parses?</div> <div> </div> <div>I'm anxiously awaiting some guild that can show me a bunch of parses where the ranger is trouncing everyone. That's what Lockeye's data suggests, and that what I want to see. Then I'll [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and go back to trying to get better.</div> <div> </div> <div>- Katsugen</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Ummm... Like mine? Or.. Maybe like sokolovs? Ummm.. Both of us agree on the same thing.. Rangers are underpowred.. What we DONT agree on, is the extent of this game.. his gap shows a 12% diffrence while the assassin isent using there killing mark thingie, and assuming that mark makes up 10-15%ish of the assassin dps, this gap widens by that much more... My thing is alot more confusing, but show about a 20-30% diffrence in dps..I am currently working on getting all of that compiled into spreadsheets, and I am currently working on a new one with recycletime/dps.. But, the way I did it isent your basic stuff to put on a spreadsheet, I used crits where there would be crits and regular damage where there would be regular damage (assuming focus aim wnet off).. Unfortunatly, im no programmer, and abit of an idiot when it comes to these things, so its going to take me some time to do this(also I want to do this to get rid of any mathematical errors I did the gap page all by HAND and I have spotted afew minor things as I have put it on the spreadsheet)I am willing to bet, if I take the total damage, over the total recasttime+casting+recovery time to get that abilities dps.. And then accumulate both for rangers and assassins.. It will show somewhere along the lines what many of us are seeing on parsings, dispite what lockeye says..I also want to add.. That there is far to much evidence for rangers rather than against.. It is really hard to just say "yea we are alright" when you see abilities like snaring shot that does 600 max damage for a m1, and expect 600 dps to passover, or snipers shot peak at 1.5kish dps assuming we land a half decent hit, when our counterpart can spike 15k dps with decapitate,or a 3s cast time on a 4k max damage(soft cap str) ability.. Rangers are not built to be able to spike the damage as high as summoners, brigands, assassins,wizards.. Its just not in the mechanics.<b>The ONLY ability I am demanding having the damage boosted is snaring shot.. The rest are all cast time issues, I dont think it would make a huge diffrence in the overall ballance if our heavier hits dident have 3-5s cast times, and I dont think its to much to ask to have snaring shot do around 1ish damage rather than 600 tops. - If anyone can debate this point and win, they get a cookie if they can honestly make me believe that this is not the heart of the issue.</b></div>

Ixnay

08-01-2006, 02:06 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR>so you didn't get the bow eh?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 02:13 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR>so you didn't get the bow eh?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>How, on Earth, can you tell? :smileyhappy:</P> <P>I'm sure it's much more useful on a fighter anyway...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>rofl!

MystaSkrat

08-01-2006, 02:21 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <BR>Me, I love a system of absolute freedom, where bards are free to spend the majority of their DKP on hover platforms, and tanks with max dkp can buy the best scout items! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Haha I like it more where people aren't loot [Removed for Content] and do what's best for the raid/guild as a whole, not they're own personal desires. :smileyhappy: But I'm sure we all know not everyone feels that way.

Diern

08-01-2006, 03:02 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ixnay wrote: <div></div> <p>As Ishbu has said, the guild's mind isn't closed and we don't discriminate against anyone. But every spot on our roster must be earned and justified. If a Ranger was able to prove he could parse up with our Assassin, Conjuror or Necro, I bet a Ranger spot would reopen. But until then, we've already given tryouts and compared weeks worth of parses against all current encounters, and based on those findings, are entitled to conclude that no ranger in EQ2 can produce damage as high as any of our dps members.</p> <p>I'd also like to point out that my guild doesn't have and isn't looking to recruit a SK, but not just because of dps. In the case of SKs, another type of fighter can tank any encounter in game better, and SK dps is at the bottom of all fighters. Plus, SK utility skills are fluff at best and not very useful. They are the worst tanks, the worst fighter dps, and have the least special skills. There is nothing they do that would ever cause anyone to say "darn, we could have beat that encounter if we only had a SK."</p> <hr> </blockquote>Dang! I have Ranger for a main and an SK for my Primary Alt.:smileyvery-happy:<hr></blockquote>So wrong, and perfect example of why the communities opinion of SK is so warped. We may not be the best tank, but a SK is all about finesse and a well played one can do very well.Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker.</div>

vinterskugge

08-01-2006, 03:41 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In that case you obviously haven't seen a berserker played correctly.

Blambil

08-01-2006, 03:52 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><p>What I am saying is we need to balance from the top end. There is no way in hell a ranger will beat me there. That means rangers need a boost up because I bring a hell of a lot more to a group than they do. </p> <p>Why would I ever want to bring a ranger there if I could bring a conjuror instead?</p><hr></blockquote>From the PVP servers I write:please, dear GOD, don't give Rangers better DPS.....</div>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 03:54 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>Blambil wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><p>What I am saying is we need to balance from the top end. There is no way in hell a ranger will beat me there. That means rangers need a boost up because I bring a hell of a lot more to a group than they do. </p> <p>Why would I ever want to bring a ranger there if I could bring a conjuror instead?</p><hr></blockquote>From the PVP servers I write:please, dear GOD, don't give Rangers better DPS.....</div><hr></blockquote>Good thing none of us are on PVP then.. AND DEAR GOD THAT THING HAS ITS OWN RULE SETS I DONT WANT TO HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT RANGERS IN PVP IN ANY CONTEXT JOKE SARCASM OR OTHERWISE.. /vent off.</div>

Ixnay

08-01-2006, 05:04 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Diernes wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>So wrong, and perfect example of why the communities opinion of SK is so warped. We may not be the best tank, but a SK is all about finesse and a well played one can do very well.<BR><BR>Where the hell do you get the notion that SK is worst DPS of the fighters thats just plain incorrect. You obviously havent seen a SK played correctly, we do DPS at least at the level of a bezerker.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Another contestant.</P> <P>If you are gonna talk smack, at least have the cajones to provide your guild and character name.</P> <P>Thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

Peston

08-01-2006, 06:20 AM

I would think that if a class is T1 dps.. they should be T1 dps regardless of group buffs. Gear and Spells should matter.. but to a certain extent.Now obviously in Lockeye's post we have one of two things happening.A. Ranger was geared out to the full extent. Masters and everything.B. Along with A... that Ranger was in a group to Maximize their DPS.Let's just focus on the Ranger for now... forget about those other classes obviously underparsing...Why do group buffs matter so much? I mean seriously... ask yourselves this question...<b>If Lockeye's parsings are accurate and it seems that the group the Ranger was in, was obviously and deliberately formed to maximize that Ranger's DPS... how in the hell can you call Ranger's T1 DPS? Without those things he is absolutely <u>not</u> T1 DPS!</b>I do not think buffs should matter. It was my understanding that buffs were put in place to HELP. Not boost a certain class to a whole new tier of DPS.Honestly, SOE... if this is your idea of making a class do their job... come on...Rangers should be T1 DPS (along with the other classes designated by the developers) regardless of group buffs, what arrows they are using ( omg the arrow issue?), and what poisons they are using (less reliant on poisons my be a better way of wording it).Because if you tell me that is true... than your idea of a balancing act (SOE) is beyond belief.<div></div>

Yunga_511

08-01-2006, 06:51 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ishboozor wrote:<BR></P> <P>Wich is why zone wide parses are good. <FONT color=#ff0000>They take into account recasts for spells so you cant use undead tide every fight, I cant use planar shift every fight, an assassin cant use decapitate every fight, and so on.</FONT><BR><BR>Also, is it really that common for people to afk during your raids? If it takes us 49min of fighting on the parse to clear a zone, odds are we arent even in there an hour. We dont stand around, we keep pulling until everything is dead. You can afk after the zone is cleared to get your drink real quick.<BR><BR>Maybe its just that our dps classes have pride in their abilities and like to show off what they can do. I dont know. <FONT color=#ffff00>I just know that afk's arent a good way to get things done and if you were really concerened with dps you would boot the people who tend to repeatedly afk.</FONT><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Thats the Plan....Its the Ninja Afk's</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Can hit 1.5k without Undead tide, that isn't Much compared to some of the peeps ive seen on this forum and In-Game</FONT><BR></P>

Sirlutt

08-01-2006, 03:54 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Blambil wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Ishboozor wrote:<div></div><p>What I am saying is we need to balance from the top end. There is no way in hell a ranger will beat me there. That means rangers need a boost up because I bring a hell of a lot more to a group than they do. </p> <p>Why would I ever want to bring a ranger there if I could bring a conjuror instead?</p><hr></blockquote>From the PVP servers I write:please, dear GOD, don't give Rangers better DPS.....</div><hr></blockquote>Thats part of the problem right there.. PvP DOES affect PVE, might be different spells and weapon data, but the unerlying game mechanics are still shared.. Procs are a classic example. Any changes to those core mechanics affects both PvP and PvE. They need to remove that link and have diff rulesets for both.</div>

Kaiser Sigma

08-01-2006, 04:12 PM

<P>This thread is hilarious..rangers' dps isn't debatable, it sucks. You have people from top WW guilds telling you that rangers need a fix, showing parses of true dps classes and how much above rangers are they. What do you get? Lockeye posting that rangers are where they should be <EM>as a top dps class </EM>and that if you can't be on par with classes that have a clear advantage due to mechanics then you suck. </P> <P>Then we get some <EM>fantastic</EM> parses (where by the way two encounters mysteriously share the exact dps) posted where the top dps classes perform as well as I do when I'm wearing spare gear to avoid paying 1pp on repairs and surfing the internet inbetween CAs' refresh times for questionable material. Yeah right.. brigs scoring 800 dps, Conjs scoring 700dps, etc. </P> <P>Get a clue, if you see people from some of the top guilds in game that don't even play a ranger asking for rangers to be fixed then there must be stuff to at least consider giving it a look.</P>

Korb

08-01-2006, 04:13 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Thats part of the problem right there.. PvP DOES affect PVE, might be different spells and weapon data, but the unerlying game mechanics are still shared.. Procs are a classic example. Any changes to those core mechanics affects both PvP and PvE. <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>They need to remove that link and have diff rulesets for both.<BR></STRONG></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree 100%!

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 05:30 PM

<blockquote><hr>Blambil wrote:<div>From the PVP servers I write:please, dear GOD, don't give Rangers better DPS.....</div><hr></blockquote>From the PvE servers I say, shut up because we were promised that PvP would NEVER influence PvE balancing and Ive already seen enough.

Rinio

08-01-2006, 05:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blambil wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>From the PVP servers I write:<BR><BR>please, dear GOD, don't give Rangers better DPS.....<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>/agree with Ishboozor. Can i Shoot this guy?</P> <P>I think the only real problem with ranger dps is the huge lack of bows. my parse is better when it used to be since fixing a major lag issue i had but it still feels lacking due to still being stuck with a grizfazzle bow.</P> <P>Unfortantly I passed on many ichorstrands and a sarnak warbow to our tank in order to be gaurenteed the first bazkul Drop.. it still hasnt droped. Dumb on my part I know should of went in for the warbow. =/</P> <P>ah btw, has anyone put much thought into ranger debuffs at all? i mean...how can cover fire and devitalizing arrow not be helpfull? debuff a mobs defence, parry, and deflection. so um, you dont miss as often? Dispatch dosent help if you cant hit the mob? /flee</P>

Drainlo

08-01-2006, 06:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote: <P>ah btw, has anyone put much thought into ranger debuffs at all? i mean...how can cover fire and devitalizing arrow not be helpfull? debuff a mobs defence, parry, and deflection. so um, you dont miss as often? Dispatch dosent help if you cant hit the mob? /flee</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i agree with this, i use my debuff moves first about 99% of the time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Dirtgirl

08-01-2006, 06:10 PM

<FONT color=#ffcc66>I hope the 1% of the time youre not using it first is when youre soloing....</FONT>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 06:21 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>RinionX wrote:<blockquote> <blockquote> <hr> Blambil wrote: <div>From the PVP servers I write:please, dear GOD, don't give Rangers better DPS..... <hr> </div></blockquote></blockquote> <p>/agree with Ishboozor. Can i Shoot this guy?</p> <p>I think the only real problem with ranger dps is the huge lack of bows. my parse is better when it used to be since fixing a major lag issue i had but it still feels lacking due to still being stuck with a grizfazzle bow.</p> <p>Unfortantly I passed on many ichorstrands and a sarnak warbow to our tank in order to be gaurenteed the first bazkul Drop.. it still hasnt droped. Dumb on my part I know should of went in for the warbow. =/</p> <p>ah btw, has anyone put much thought into ranger debuffs at all? i mean...how can cover fire and devitalizing arrow not be helpfull? debuff a mobs defence, parry, and deflection. so um, you dont miss as often? Dispatch dosent help if you cant hit the mob? /flee</p><hr></blockquote>max it out all you like your going to fall short, its that simple.. the top ranger and assassin in the game.. rangers not going to cut it in DPS.. Doesnt matter if both are fully buffed or no buffs at all.. The problem is in our base CA's.. I dont want another [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] eq1 rolling around where every class is so damned item dependant that items are the only thing that determine class ballance.</div>

leafnin

08-01-2006, 06:39 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>RinionX wrote:</P> <P>ah btw, has anyone put much thought into ranger debuffs at all? i mean...how can cover fire and devitalizing arrow not be helpfull? debuff a mobs defence, parry, and deflection. so um, you dont miss as often? Dispatch dosent help if you cant hit the mob? /flee<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your Brigand should be able to debuff defense much more then you can and I believe parry too. Also your Offensive stance raises your effective ability with offensive skills. It doesn't hurt to use these debuffs but you should be able to hit the mob with the other raid debuff's and your own O.Stance.</P> <P> </P> <P>On the main topic I'd just like to say I find it funny that so many people miss the point so I'll spell it out. The problem is not so much a Ranger's ability to raid as it's top DPS potential being limited. Yeah that may limit the problem to the top end raids, but guess what it's a game EVERY class should be viable. Some people LIKE to min/max and enjoy being on the edge with their Ranger not a Zerker or Sin. They have a right to have fun with the character they want to play in any form of play this game offers not just with whatever Lockeye can frankstein together in this lab to get to work properly for us. I appreciate what Dissolution is trying to do for the class my hats off to them. You got test server you got a guild/Rangers willing to test these issues for you what's the problem?</P> <P> </P> <P>Falcon/Peregrian</P> <P>Kithicor </P> <P> </P> <P>--On a side note I find it funny how different the responses to the Ranger community have been compared to what was given to other classes that have done this similar action or were outaged about being nerfed. </P>

Rinio

08-01-2006, 08:16 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leafnin wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your Brigand should be able to debuff defense much more then you can and I believe parry too. Also your Offensive stance raises your effective ability with offensive skills. It doesn't hurt to use these debuffs but you should be able to hit the mob with the other raid debuff's and your own O.Stance.</P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They all stack...</P> <P>but ya with all 3 avoidance debuffs a brigande can debuff defense by 58 and parry by 82. while a ranger can only debuff def by 46 and parry by 60. But a ranger can also debuff deflection by 60 so =P</P> <P>Edit: btw our defense debuff is unresitable, ranged, and instant cast is yours? =P again /flee!</P> <P>And I agree Lorelady. funny how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by RinionX on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 PM</span>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 08:25 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Message Edited by RinionX on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>are bow shot cast timers affected by allegro?<BR>

pera

08-01-2006, 08:39 PM

<blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RinionX wrote: <div></div> <div> <blockquote>how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</blockquote></div> <p>Message Edited by RinionX on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:19 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>are bow shot cast timers affected by allegro?<hr></blockquote>Yes they are but allegros effect is so minor its almost non-existnat. At rake 4 it only takes off about 0.05seconds of the cast time and at rank 8 about 0.08seconds. Allegro honestly imo is a waste of an ability but I had to take it to get DKtM. though your cast timer may show a 0.1 second reduction uless the game rounds (which i doubt it does) the display is just lieing. <div></div>

Prandtl

08-01-2006, 08:48 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>I think the only real problem with ranger dps is the huge lack of bows. my parse is better when it used to be since fixing a major lag issue i had but it still feels lacking due to still being stuck with a grizfazzle bow.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree with this, yet I also disagree... Good bows are hard to come by and drop far too seldom. But even if fabled bows had a damage rating comperable to fabled 2 handers, rangers would still lag in damage. As has been shown on other threads, a zerker on ranged autoattack with double attacks can out damage a ranger. Giving them a better bow just makes the gap grow even wider.</P> <P>At this point in time rangers +ranged stat modifiers are pretty much useless. Any bow shooting class can hit any target a ranger can hit, as often as a ranger can hit it, and hit harder while doing it. <BR></P>

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 08:55 PM

Everytime I go to read this thread and notice the title I want to post this:THE top.

leafnin

08-01-2006, 09:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> leafnin wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your Brigand should be able to debuff defense much more then you can and I believe parry too. Also your Offensive stance raises your effective ability with offensive skills. It doesn't hurt to use these debuffs but you should be able to hit the mob with the other raid debuff's and your own O.Stance.</P> <P> </P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They all stack...</P> <P>but ya with all 3 avoidance debuffs a brigande can debuff defense by 58 and parry by 82. while a ranger can only debuff def by 46 and parry by 60. But a ranger can also debuff deflection by 60 so =P</P> <P>Edit: btw our defense debuff is unresitable, ranged, and instant cast is yours? =P again /flee!</P> <P>And I agree Lorelady. funny how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by RinionX on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Agreed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> any debuff is a good debuff. Most my melee debuffs are just like Corner so it's pretty much similar to that in casting/recovery/range. I can't remember the cast time on Devit arrow allI know is brawler mobs seem to deflect this art more then others for me /hate brawler mobs.

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 09:21 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Message Edited by RinionX on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>are bow shot cast timers affected by allegro?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes they are but allegros effect is so minor its almost non-existnat. At rake 4 it only takes off about 0.05seconds of the cast time and at rank 8 about 0.08seconds. Allegro honestly imo is a waste of an ability but I had to take it to get DKtM. though your cast timer may show a 0.1 second reduction uless the game rounds (which i doubt it does) the display is just lieing.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>3.6% reduction on a 7 second ca bow shot = 6.7 second cast time</P> <P>7.2% reduction on a 7 second ca bow shot = 6.4 second cast time (makes the ranger get the bow shot off and refresh with .1s to spare</P> <P>7.2 % reduction on a 5 second ca bow shot = 4.6 second cast time. (makes getting sniper shot off a little bit easier eh?)</P> <P>the reductions begin to add up the longer the fight progresses. </P> <P>If we get a troub on our next raid i'm going to see if I can convince the raid leader to put the ranger in there as an experiment on how his dps will be affected.</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 09:25 PM

How about we stop talking about debuffs and util and talk about the problem.. The lack of potential damage in our CA's.

Lexan

08-01-2006, 09:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ishboozor wrote:<BR>It should be noted that Axkiva does not have a t7 fabled bow because we have always had bad luck and simply cant get them to drop.<BR><BR>For example, guild on our server has killed tarinax 3times and has 2 bows and 1 satchel from him.<BR><BR>We have killed tarinax every week since april and have 1 bow and 1 satchel.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Technically i have a fabled short bow t7 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

Sirlutt

08-01-2006, 09:46 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:How about we stop talking about debuffs and util and talk about the problem.. The lack of potential damage in our CA's.<hr></blockquote>because debuffs and util ARE the problem. Rangers need more util, more reasons to be included in groups and raids because over whelming DPS isnt going to be it. Even if they "fix" the mythical DPs problem, what then ? You'd still take just about any other DPS class over a ranger on most raids because they all give something else beyond their DPs, Rangers dont. The gap in DPS is not the problem, even if there really is one (which its almost impossible to prove to Sony because #1 their data says there isnt, and #2 the parses provided by the community have too many variables to be reliable.)The real answer lies in improving auto attack arrow damage by making it not fiscally suicidal to use decent arrows (ie crafted).. and by giving rangers something that they contribute beyond their flinging of wet noodles. As an assassin upgrading my primary weapons DR affects my damage alot and doesnt cost me anything daily .. with a ranger you need both a GOOD DR bow (of which the DR on bows != or come close to the DR on other 2H weapons) and good arrows. Slacking in either of those means your not doin as much DPS as you should. And you shouldnt need to spend a plat a day and have a WW on comision to do it.</div>

Pins

08-01-2006, 10:00 PM

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:How about we stop talking about debuffs and util and talk about the problem.. The lack of potential damage in our CA's.<hr></blockquote>because debuffs and util ARE the problem. Rangers need more util, more reasons to be included in groups and raids because over whelming DPS isnt going to be it. Even if they "fix" the mythical DPs problem, what then ? You'd still take just about any other DPS class over a ranger on most raids because they all give something else beyond their DPs, Rangers dont. The gap in DPS is not the problem, even if there really is one (which its almost impossible to prove to Sony because #1 their data says there isnt, and #2 the parses provided by the community have too many variables to be reliable.)The real answer lies in improving auto attack arrow damage by making it not fiscally suicidal to use decent arrows (ie crafted).. and by giving rangers something that they contribute beyond their flinging of wet noodles. As an assassin upgrading my primary weapons DR affects my damage alot and doesnt cost me anything daily .. with a ranger you need both a GOOD DR bow (of which the DR on bows != or come close to the DR on other 2H weapons) and good arrows. Slacking in either of those means your not doin as much DPS as you should. And you shouldnt need to spend a plat a day and have a WW on comision to do it.</div><hr></blockquote>Upgrading bow damage will not fix rangers. It will harm them, because more than just Rangers use bows. A small improvement on CAs will fix the problem. Rangers have enough utility compared to an Assassin, imo, that they don't need more utility, they just need to get to the same level for damage, and problems will be solved.

Ishbu

08-01-2006, 10:16 PM

I agree.

pera

08-01-2006, 10:22 PM

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> perano wrote: <blockquote> <hr> IllusiveThoughts wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RinionX wrote: <div></div> <div> <blockquote>how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</blockquote></div> <p>Message Edited by RinionX on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:19 PM</span></p> <hr> </blockquote>are bow shot cast timers affected by allegro? <hr> </blockquote>Yes they are but allegros effect is so minor its almost non-existnat. At rake 4 it only takes off about 0.05seconds of the cast time and at rank 8 about 0.08seconds. Allegro honestly imo is a waste of an ability but I had to take it to get DKtM. though your cast timer may show a 0.1 second reduction uless the game rounds (which i doubt it does) the display is just lieing. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>3.6% reduction on a 7 second ca bow shot = 6.7 second cast time</p> <p>7.2% reduction on a 7 second ca bow shot = 6.4 second cast time (makes the ranger get the bow shot off and refresh with .1s to spare</p> <p>7.2 % reduction on a 5 second ca bow shot = 4.6 second cast time. (makes getting sniper shot off a little bit easier eh?)</p> <p>the reductions begin to add up the longer the fight progresses. </p> <p>If we get a troub on our next raid i'm going to see if I can convince the raid leader to put the ranger in there as an experiment on how his dps will be affected.</p><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>(used to 3 second cast timers but i'm still prtty sure on this next part) The way SoE did their % reduction (on almsot all abilites from what i can tell) is not normal math. LOL. if y ou take jesters for instance it really only reduces recast timers by about 2/3 of what it says it will do. I cant find the thread at the moment but all the %reduction seem to follow this crazy forumla. instead of being X-(X*%reduction) = Y its something else that only gives your about 2/3s of the reduction power. Like jesters cap should make escape a 9 min recast under normal math, lol, it ends up only being like 11min and some change because of the formula soe uses. I knwo this is recast compaired to cast but i would be very suprised if they used differnt %reduction formulas. But try the ranger with a bard that took the wis line and see what it does to their CAs. But even then if it is the full %reduction is very little even if the bard took full 8 points into allegro Now maybe if jesters and allegro were combined and focused on the ranger for their high dps long recast CAs it could make a very large differance. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:23 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 10:25 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>(wich is the only thing intellagent that has come out of that post thus far)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm horrible at spelling and not trying to correct you at it but you have to find the humor in part of your post.

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 10:28 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RinionX wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>how alot of our recast timers are the same or mroe then ice nova yet do far less damage. ug and cast timers them selves... Im sorry I would rather be item dependant then be a chain wearing wizard with low damage nukes.</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Message Edited by RinionX on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:19 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>are bow shot cast timers affected by allegro?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes they are but allegros effect is so minor its almost non-existnat. At rake 4 it only takes off about 0.05seconds of the cast time and at rank 8 about 0.08seconds. Allegro honestly imo is a waste of an ability but I had to take it to get DKtM. though your cast timer may show a 0.1 second reduction uless the game rounds (which i doubt it does) the display is just lieing.<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>3.6% reduction on a 7 second ca bow shot = 6.7 second cast time</P> <P>7.2% reduction on a 7 second ca bow shot = 6.4 second cast time (makes the ranger get the bow shot off and refresh with .1s to spare</P> <P>7.2 % reduction on a 5 second ca bow shot = 4.6 second cast time. (makes getting sniper shot off a little bit easier eh?)</P> <P>the reductions begin to add up the longer the fight progresses. </P> <P>If we get a troub on our next raid i'm going to see if I can convince the raid leader to put the ranger in there as an experiment on how his dps will be affected.</P> <P>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:24 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>(used to 3 second cast timers but i'm still prtty sure on this next part)<BR><BR>The way SoE did their % reduction (on almsot all abilites from what i can tell) is not normal math. LOL. if y ou take jesters for instance it really only reduces recast timers by about 2/3 of what it says it will do. I cant find the thread at the moment but all the %reduction seem to follow this crazy forumla. instead of being X-(X*%reduction) = Y its something else that only gives your about 2/3s of the reduction power.<BR><BR><BR>Like jesters cap should make escape a 9 min recast under normal math, lol, it ends up only being like 11min and some change because of the formula soe uses.<BR><BR>I knwo this is recast compaired to cast but i would be very suprised if they used differnt %reduction formulas.<BR><BR><BR><BR>But try the ranger with a bard that took the wis line and see what it does to their CAs. But even then if it is the full %reduction is very little even if the bard took full 8 points into allegro<BR><BR><BR>Now maybe if jesters and allegro were combined and focused on the ranger for their high dps long recast CAs it could make a very large differance.<BR><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by perano on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:23 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by perano on <SPAN class=date_text>08-01-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:24 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>it would seem there is a problem with allegro at the moment.... or the way the information is displayed in-game.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=16307" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spells&message.id=16307</A></P>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 10:32 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote: <div>(wich is the only thing intellagent that has come out of that post thus far)</div> <hr> </blockquote>I'm horrible at spelling and not trying to correct you at it but you have to find the humor in part of your post.<hr></blockquote>never said I could spell, type.. Just im sick of hearing that kid and his twisted views that are way out there.. When this kid cant even take a look at the class structure...Im a math person, always have been always will be.. I make no claims to being a good writer, creative thinker, speller, my grammor is more often incorrect, and I have huge problems communicating my thoughs.. And yet, I have yet to see a general class group of people disagree with me.. This kid is one in amillion.You would also be surprised how many PM's I get a day thanking me on diffrent things.. I sure ishbu gets the same thing.</div>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 10:34 PM

<div><blockquote><blockquote><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>(used to 3 second cast timers but i'm still prtty sure on this next part) The way SoE did their % reduction (on almsot all abilites from what i can tell) is not normal math. LOL. if y ou take jesters for instance it really only reduces recast timers by about 2/3 of what it says it will do. I cant find the thread at the moment but all the %reduction seem to follow this crazy forumla. instead of being X-(X*%reduction) = Y its something else that only gives your about 2/3s of the reduction power. Like jesters cap should make escape a 9 min recast under normal math, lol, it ends up only being like 11min and some change because of the formula soe uses. I knwo this is recast compaired to cast but i would be very suprised if they used differnt %reduction formulas. But try the ranger with a bard that took the wis line and see what it does to their CAs. But even then if it is the full %reduction is very little even if the bard took full 8 points into allegro Now maybe if jesters and allegro were combined and focused on the ranger for their high dps long recast CAs it could make a very large differance. <div></div><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:23 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by perano on <span class="date_text">08-01-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Buffs are irrelivant, we are the sony. Resistance is futile.. Buffs are irrelevant, troub buffs in this fourm do not compute. Buffs will not be added to this discussion.</div>

leafnin

08-01-2006, 10:40 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>How about we stop talking about debuffs and util and talk about the problem.. The lack of potential damage in our CA's.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>because debuffs and util ARE the problem. Rangers need more util, more reasons to be included in groups and raids because over whelming DPS isnt going to be it. Even if they "fix" the mythical DPs problem, what then ? You'd still take just about any other DPS class over a ranger on most raids because they all give something else beyond their DPs, Rangers dont. The gap in DPS is not the problem, even if there really is one (which its almost impossible to prove to Sony because #1 their data says there isnt, and #2 the parses provided by the community have too many variables to be reliable.)<BR><BR>The real answer lies in improving auto attack arrow damage by making it not fiscally suicidal to use decent arrows (ie crafted).. and by giving rangers something that they contribute beyond their flinging of wet noodles. As an assassin upgrading my primary weapons DR affects my damage alot and doesnt cost me anything daily .. with a ranger you need both a GOOD DR bow (of which the DR on bows != or come close to the DR on other 2H weapons) and good arrows. Slacking in either of those means your not doin as much DPS as you should. And you shouldnt need to spend a plat a day and have a WW on comision to do it.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'd rather get the Focus line upgraded somehow and possibley a change to cast timers we use to have faster recast lower damage CA's and it was the other way around for Sin's. Barring that a change to SoA so we can autoattack/change targets during it might be nice course they might feel the need to change the Swashie version of this art as well so I don't think this likely either. /shrug</P> <P> </P> <P>Edit -- for spelling</P><p>Message Edited by leafnin on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:42 AM</span>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 10:48 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>(wich is the only thing intellagent that has come out of that post thus far)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm horrible at spelling and not trying to correct you at it but you have to find the humor in part of your post.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>never said I could spell, type.. Just im sick of hearing that kid and his twisted views that are way out there.. When this kid cant even take a look at the class structure...<BR><BR>Im a math person, always have been always will be.. I make no claims to being a good writer, creative thinker, speller, my grammor is more often incorrect, and I have huge problems communicating my thoughs.. And yet, I have yet to see a general class group of people disagree with me.. This kid is one in amillion.<BR><BR>You would also be surprised how many PM's I get a day thanking me on diffrent things.. I sure ishbu gets the same thing.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not putting you down in any way. Maybe in a few days you can come back to this part and have a laugh at that. I just thought what I quoted was funny. I completely understand your point of view. I'm horrible at spelling too and I would of laughed at something like that had i re-read my post too.</P>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 10:51 PM

Yea I get what ya mean.. Im not ticked off at what you have said, nor am I ticked off at sirlutt.. Just his twisted views without looking at structure.. that and this damned heat is getting to me.. Im turning off my comp now and taking a dip int he local swimming pool now.. this computer heats things up and gets this house all.. ikky.

USAFJeeper

08-01-2006, 10:54 PM

<DIV>Sometimes I wish there was a way to find out how many raiding rangers betray, hell find out which class most people betray from period! How many raiding ranger alts have all of a sudden got a jump in online time (I am guilty of that! I hate zero vitality!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sure SOE has those numbers but I doubt we will ever see em.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Sirlutt

08-01-2006, 10:58 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Upgrading bow damage will not fix rangers. It will harm them, because more than just Rangers use bows. A small improvement on CAs will fix the problem. Rangers have enough utility compared to an Assassin, imo, that they don't need more utility, they just need to get to the same level for damage, and problems will be solved.<hr></blockquote>Part of that i tend to agree with, part of it not. You are right more than rangers use bows, but not many ore than rangers use bows as their main auto attack medium .. about 15-30% of a rangers damage can come from their auto attack on their bows.. increase that and you riase their DPS quite nicely, even if other classes who use bows to pull etc etc benefit from that small increase.I am really curious though what utility you mean when talkin about that, what do Rangers bring in the way of utility that any other class doesnt have?i can think of miracle shot, thats it.Sony already did that once, looked at the Ranger CA damage compared to Assassins and bump'd rangers. Maybe it wasnt enough.. their data seems to indicate across the board that it raised the averages enough though... and they ake the changes.Utility is why you'd take a Wizard or Conj or Assassin over a Ranger though I think, 150-300 DPS isnt going to break the raid when its doing 10,15K as it is.. but having some of those other buffs that those classes bring plus that extra DPS is going to be nice. If Rangers had something that they were really useful for.. something like a shot thats guranteed to NOT incude social agro, a special pull then you'd find the stigma of their lesser DPs would fade away, they have a unique usefullness.</div>

Anxi

08-01-2006, 11:07 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Sirlutt wrote:</P> <P>*** SNIP ****<BR></P> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>If Rangers had something that they were really useful for.. something like a shot thats guranteed to NOT incude social agro.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That would be very very cool. Reminds me of Harmony of Nature. Made us the kings of outdoor pulling in EQ1.</P>

LoreLady

08-01-2006, 11:08 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Upgrading bow damage will not fix rangers. It will harm them, because more than just Rangers use bows. A small improvement on CAs will fix the problem. Rangers have enough utility compared to an Assassin, imo, that they don't need more utility, they just need to get to the same level for damage, and problems will be solved.<hr></blockquote>Part of that i tend to agree with, part of it not. You are right more than rangers use bows, but not many ore than rangers use bows as their main auto attack medium .. about 15-30% of a rangers damage can come from their auto attack on their bows.. increase that and you riase their DPS quite nicely, even if other classes who use bows to pull etc etc benefit from that small increase.I am really curious though what utility you mean when talkin about that, what do Rangers bring in the way of utility that any other class doesnt have?i can think of miracle shot, thats it.<font color="#ff0000">Lol, learn more about the ranger class before going on about more util... We have confounding arrow, inotherwords 30% hate increase on the mobs target.. In a pinch we have the birdie (seldom is it helpfull though)</font>Sony already did that once, looked at the Ranger CA damage compared to Assassins and bump'd rangers. Maybe it wasnt enough.. their data seems to indicate across the board that it raised the averages enough though... and they ake the changes.<font color="#ff0000">Explain to me how 400 damage for 1s cast time, to 600s 1s cast time for a ranged ability is any kind of boost we need? Dev's did take it up a notch, but no where NEAR t1 dps. Confounding arrow, miracle arrow, and arrow rip, and lunging joust were acceptable changes in my eyes.</font>Utility is why you'd take a Wizard or Conj or Assassin over a Ranger though I think, 150-300 DPS isnt going to break the raid when its doing 10,15K as it is.. but having some of those other buffs that those classes bring plus that extra DPS is going to be nice. If Rangers had something that they were really useful for.. something like a shot thats guranteed to NOT incude social agro, a special pull then you'd find the stigma of their lesser DPs would fade away, they have a unique usefullness.<font color="#ff0000">So, go troll on the assassin fourms saying that assassins dont get spots because they dont have util *eyeroll*</font></div><hr></blockquote>Dont post till you know what your talking about.. Now get out.</div>

pera

08-01-2006, 11:16 PM

<blockquote><hr>USAFJeeper wrote:<div>Sometimes I wish there was a way to find out how many raiding rangers betray, hell find out which class most people betray from period! How many raiding ranger alts have all of a sudden got a jump in online time (I am guilty of that! I hate zero vitality!)</div> <div> </div> <div>I am sure SOE has those numbers but I doubt we will ever see em.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>I have a ranger alt in his mid 30s with good gear/spells/arrows and yeah i am only about 50dps or so above a brig on a short fight (less than 30 seconds) after that my dps can tank pretty well but still keeping in the 150s range. Now this sounds all fine and dandy at 30 but what happens when I get to higher levels and other classes dps has grown exp, where as mine is a steady curve. (with utility aside, which rangers have almost none of) I would only be parses about as much as a brig or swash if not a bit lower, (with out a troub for jesters, which you cant even consider because you cant consider a class fixed and doing the dps it should all because of one or two classes being required in raid/group to agument dmg). Ha and the cost of good arrows at your level in T7 is just sick a ranger can easily go through 5-10 stacks of arrows in a raid/long group. Now what other class has to pay out that much just to be able to use theri CAs ?? <div></div>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 11:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR><BR>because you cant consider a class fixed and doing the dps it should all because of one or two classes being required in raid/group to agument dmg<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree that class's shouldn't require specific classes to fufill their dps roles.</P> <P><BR>just wanted to point out that sorcerors are even more dependent on another class (specifically troubs or paly's) to fufill their roles as dps. </P>

Sirlutt

08-01-2006, 11:28 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:Upgrading bow damage will not fix rangers. It will harm them, because more than just Rangers use bows. A small improvement on CAs will fix the problem. Rangers have enough utility compared to an Assassin, imo, that they don't need more utility, they just need to get to the same level for damage, and problems will be solved.<hr></blockquote>Part of that i tend to agree with, part of it not. You are right more than rangers use bows, but not many ore than rangers use bows as their main auto attack medium .. about 15-30% of a rangers damage can come from their auto attack on their bows.. increase that and you riase their DPS quite nicely, even if other classes who use bows to pull etc etc benefit from that small increase.I am really curious though what utility you mean when talkin about that, what do Rangers bring in the way of utility that any other class doesnt have?i can think of miracle shot, thats it.<font color="#ff0000">Lol, learn more about the ranger class before going on about more util... We have confounding arrow, inotherwords 30% hate increase on the mobs target.. In a pinch we have the birdie (seldom is it helpfull though)</font>Sony already did that once, looked at the Ranger CA damage compared to Assassins and bump'd rangers. Maybe it wasnt enough.. their data seems to indicate across the board that it raised the averages enough though... and they ake the changes.<font color="#ff0000">Explain to me how 400 damage for 1s cast time, to 600s 1s cast time for a ranged ability is any kind of boost we need? Dev's did take it up a notch, but no where NEAR t1 dps. Confounding arrow, miracle arrow, and arrow rip, and lunging joust were acceptable changes in my eyes.</font>Utility is why you'd take a Wizard or Conj or Assassin over a Ranger though I think, 150-300 DPS isnt going to break the raid when its doing 10,15K as it is.. but having some of those other buffs that those classes bring plus that extra DPS is going to be nice. If Rangers had something that they were really useful for.. something like a shot thats guranteed to NOT incude social agro, a special pull then you'd find the stigma of their lesser DPs would fade away, they have a unique usefullness.<font color="#ff0000">So, go troll on the assassin fourms saying that assassins dont get spots because they dont have util *eyeroll*</font></div><hr></blockquote>Dont post till you know what your talking about.. Now get out.</div><hr></blockquote>oh good lord where do we start ?How many times do you pull with confounding arrow in a raid ?.. or in a group ? .. its a nice ability on paper, but it doesnt always work the way you want it too.. more importantly.. tell me how many times someones said to you.. OMG LoreLady we need you to pull it with confounding arrow !.. quickly now.. not often i am pretty sure... you might need to research how the spells work .. i WAS a Ranger.. remember?.. recently betrayed .. i was a pretty good ranger, i raided T6 until the char was retired to be MT. I'm pretty sure I have a good grasp on what alot of the core Ranger skills are about (well cept the bird and anything new in T7, you got me there).I'm not even sure how to respond to the 400, 600 etc etc etc.. i would have thought that kind of increase is something your saying you need.. but. .who knows..and i'm not even sure what your last comment was about.. again hard to debate something that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.. i've had invites to plenty of groups and been in the MT group on raids to help the MT.... have you ? (again thats not the issue but your weird comment seems to think that i should somehow go tell the assassins they dont have utility.. when they do .. as opposed to pointing out what alot of other rangers will agree on, Rangers have no significant utility.. reread the S word there dear.. Significant.. if confounding arrow is your significant.. well then i guess we are done here.. lol)</div>

Sirlutt

08-01-2006, 11:32 PM

<div><blockquote><hr>IllusiveThoughts wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> perano wrote:because you cant consider a class fixed and doing the dps it should all because of one or two classes being required in raid/group to agument dmg <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I agree that class's shouldn't require specific classes to fufill their dps roles.</p> <p>just wanted to point out that sorcerors are even more dependent on another class (specifically troubs or paly's) to fufill their roles as dps. </p><hr></blockquote>thats a pretty good point. A sorc and a Ranger in a group of their own is an example .. the Sorc increases the rangers Int, can give him procs etc etc etc. . whats the ranger do for the Sorc?.. oh yeah... makes him run faster out of combat.. awesome!The Ranger can also probably do more DPS in this situation without fear of getting killed.. Sorcs tend to pull agro pretty easy unless your "nerfing" their hate with another class.. so yeah your probably right.. they do need other classes to get their DPS. Not to say Rangers dont benefit either .. but they at least have their own hate debuff, and other hate reducers.</div>

IllusiveThoughts

08-01-2006, 11:36 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> perano wrote:<BR><BR>because you cant consider a class fixed and doing the dps it should all because of one or two classes being required in raid/group to agument dmg<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree that class's shouldn't require specific classes to fufill their dps roles.</P> <P><BR>just wanted to point out that sorcerors are even more dependent on another class (specifically troubs or paly's) to fufill their roles as dps. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>thats a pretty good point. A sorc and a Ranger in a group of their own is an example .. the Sorc increases the rangers Int, can give him procs etc etc etc. . whats the ranger do for the Sorc?.. oh yeah... makes him run faster out of combat.. awesome!<BR><BR>The Ranger can also probably do more DPS in this situation without fear of getting killed.. Sorcs tend to pull agro pretty easy unless your "nerfing" their hate with another class.. so yeah your probably right.. they do need other classes to get their DPS. Not to say Rangers dont benefit either .. but they at least have their own hate debuff, and other hate reducers.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I just want them to change phoneix blade's proc*edit* and the warlock equivilant one, to work off ranged too, then it would make it more viable to put a ranger and a wizard together.</P> <P>as it stands now an assasin and wizard is a better combo.</P> <P>and if the assasin feels like being evil he can stick his hate transfer on the wizzie and watch him go @#$3 how'd i get agro on a dot....</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

Ranja

08-01-2006, 11:38 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR><BR>Upgrading bow damage will not fix rangers. It will harm them, because more than just Rangers use bows. A small improvement on CAs will fix the problem. Rangers have enough utility compared to an Assassin, imo, that they don't need more utility, they just need to get to the same level for damage, and problems will be solved.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Part of that i tend to agree with, part of it not. You are right more than rangers use bows, but not many ore than rangers use bows as their main auto attack medium .. about 15-30% of a rangers damage can come from their auto attack on their bows.. increase that and you riase their DPS quite nicely, even if other classes who use bows to pull etc etc benefit from that small increase.<BR><BR>I am really curious though what utility you mean when talkin about that, what do Rangers bring in the way of utility that any other class doesnt have?<BR><BR>i can think of miracle shot, thats it.<FONT color=#ff0000>Lol, learn more about the ranger class before going on about more util... We have confounding arrow, inotherwords 30% hate increase on the mobs target.. In a pinch we have the birdie (seldom is it helpfull though)</FONT><BR><BR>Sony already did that once, looked at the Ranger CA damage compared to Assassins and bump'd rangers. Maybe it wasnt enough.. their data seems to indicate across the board that it raised the averages enough though... and they ake the changes.<FONT color=#ff0000>Explain to me how 400 damage for 1s cast time, to 600s 1s cast time for a ranged ability is any kind of boost we need? Dev's did take it up a notch, but no where NEAR t1 dps. Confounding arrow, miracle arrow, and arrow rip, and lunging joust were acceptable changes in my eyes.</FONT><BR><BR>Utility is why you'd take a Wizard or Conj or Assassin over a Ranger though I think, 150-300 DPS isnt going to break the raid when its doing 10,15K as it is.. but having some of those other buffs that those classes bring plus that extra DPS is going to be nice. If Rangers had something that they were really useful for.. something like a shot thats guranteed to NOT incude social agro, a special pull then you'd find the stigma of their lesser DPs would fade away, they have a unique usefullness.<FONT color=#ff0000>So, go troll on the assassin fourms saying that assassins dont get spots because they dont have util *eyeroll*</FONT><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Dont post till you know what your talking about.. Now get out.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>oh good lord where do we start ?<BR><BR>How many times do you pull with confounding arrow in a raid ?.. or in a group ? .. its a nice ability on paper, but it doesnt always work the way you want it too.. <BR><BR>more importantly.. tell me how many times someones said to you.. OMG LoreLady we need you to pull it with confounding arrow !.. quickly now.. not often i am pretty sure... you might need to research how the spells work .. i WAS a Ranger.. remember?.. recently betrayed .. i was a pretty good ranger, i raided T6 until the char was retired to be MT. I'm pretty sure I have a good grasp on what alot of the core Ranger skills are about (well cept the bird and anything new in T7, you got me there).<BR><BR>I'm not even sure how to respond to the 400, 600 etc etc etc.. i would have thought that kind of increase is something your saying you need.. but. .who knows..<BR><BR>and i'm not even sure what your last comment was about.. again hard to debate something that doesnt make a whole lot of sense.. i've had invites to plenty of groups and been in the MT group on raids to help the MT.... have you ? (again thats not the issue but your weird comment seems to think that i should somehow go tell the assassins they dont have utility.. when they do .. as opposed to pointing out what alot of other rangers will agree on, Rangers have no significant utility.. reread the S word there dear.. Significant.. if confounding arrow is your significant.. well then i guess we are done here.. lol)<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think what is going on here, Sirlutt is that most of your previous posts read like trolling comments. The post above that LoreLady is responding too is rather calm and objective. I actually thought it was one of your better posts in this thread( and I have read the whole thing). I remember reading it and saying "Wow! there is a good post from Sirlutt" rather than your utility posts that [Removed for Content] people off and seem to suggest that you do not understand what this thread is really about. However, LoreLady is reacting to you based on all of your previous posts.</P> <P>I can see this whole thread from a bird's eye view and you and lorelady have been at each other the whole thread. I am not saying who is right and who is wrong. Neither is wrong IMHO. But, emotions are tense and tempers have been stoked from your previous posts. You keep pressing utility and while that might make us wanted again, it is not what any Ranger wants. They want their damage to be good enough so that is all that is needed to be in the raid. Ranger's do enough damage to include in the raid - not we want a ranger for this special utility they have. Given that Assassin and Ranger utility is equal (meaning low utility), Assassins are brought to the raid for damage. Why can't it be the same for Rangers? I think this is the point you are missing.</P> <P> </P>

Sirlutt

08-02-2006, 12:03 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>bentgate wrote:<div></div><blockquote> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I think what is going on here, Sirlutt is that most of your previous posts read like trolling comments. The post above that LoreLady is responding too is rather calm and objective. I actually thought it was one of your better posts in this thread( and I have read the whole thing). I remember reading it and saying "Wow! there is a good post from Sirlutt" rather than your utility posts that [Removed for Content] people off and seem to suggest that you do not understand what this thread is really about. However, LoreLady is reacting to you based on all of your previous posts.</p> <p>I can see this whole thread from a bird's eye view and you and lorelady have been at each other the whole thread. I am not saying who is right and who is wrong. Neither is wrong IMHO. But, emotions are tense and tempers have been stoked from your previous posts. You keep pressing utility and while that might make us wanted again, it is not what any Ranger wants. They want their damage to be good enough so that is all that is needed to be in the raid. Ranger's do enough damage to include in the raid - not we want a ranger for this special utility they have. Given that Assassin and Ranger utility is equal (meaning low utility), Assassins are brought to the raid for damage. Why can't it be the same for Rangers? I think this is the point you are missing.</p> <hr></blockquote>And i can appreciate that.. i really can.. my point is i remember the days when guilds recruited a bunch of rangers because, OMG the DPS was amazing .. back then yep, you wanted Rangers because their DPS really was awesome.. we wont ever see a return to those days (not intentionally) and thats pretty much what the 30% DPS boost most seem to want will do. Rangers should not only bring DPS to a raid, because to do that, they need to do MORE DPS than the other T1 classes. When you only have 24 spots, and that last spot is open you want someone who brings the DPS, and can allow other classes to do more DPS, they in effect bring more than just their raw DPS. Rangers dont do that.Assassins do that, Wizards do that, Warlocks do that, Conjurors and Necro's do that and more. in fact almost ALL the other classes, even the supposed T2 DPs classes bring more to the raid than just their own DPS, they enhance other classes.Rangers dont... so in reality, to give that last spot in your raid force to a Ranger doesnt really make sense, give it to a class that brings you more procs, more mana, less hate etc etc etc. Give it to someone who lets you change some of the other mechanics in the game more to your favor.Rangers asked for their DPS boost, and they got it a while ago. Whether it was enough or not isnt really the point. Sony looked at the data and said wow your right we screwed up and heres some DPS. Asking for more when their data says you dont need it is just futile.. whether its right and Rangers need it or not, Sony isnt going to change it.some data says they are fine, some says they need that 30%, some say its 10-15% .. even if their DPS was on par with other T1 classes chances are, all things being equal and given a choice you'd do yourself a favor by bringing another class with the same DPS, plus the utility... thats my point.Rangers sufer from 3 main issues.Cost of their DPSTheir DPSTheir Utility.Sony has only ever attempted to fix one of those., and whining about getting them to fix that one thing again without fixing the other 2 is just not what *I* think you should be focusing on.As for LoreLady and I .. well it is what it is.. she admits she's a math person .. so the numbers are what she focus's on .. i'm amongst alot of things a car guy and i've seen SO many times the numbers dont mean jack..its the driver that counts and you run whatcha brung.</div>

Spite

08-02-2006, 12:19 AM

<DIV>While i like confounding arrow, its not like Devious Blade from a swachy isnt the same thing ( yes twice as long to recast, but cast in .5 not 1.5). And a Swashy has many more cool tricks AND more DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides that arn't hate mods like DPS and Haste mods where they cant go over 100%? That might be an assumption as I cant ever remember it being addressed specifically. Ok a dirge give +41 Master 1 and a Coercer gives +49 M1 and a Warrior can take the 8% for executioners. Giving 98% already. Both Math and memory arnt my strong suits but that looks right. Also in this kind of instance would a pally only get 2% more for using his short term hate siphon?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because its on the mob it might come from a different modifier pool. Anyway food for thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to make the comment darn it yall fast posters. This was in reference to what loreLady posted on Ranger utility.</DIV><p>Message Edited by FiftyK on <span class=date_text>08-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

xchimaerax

08-02-2006, 12:28 AM

<div></div>Like the man said; "It's like deja vu all over again."I could swear that rangers went through something eerily similar in EQ1, except, um, reversed. When Kunark came out and the level cap went up to 60 and every melee got a defensive upgrade except rangers, who got max offensive skill but the defense of a dish rag, didnt the ranger community try to show SOE the error of their ways and it fell on deaf ears? Yep, I do remember that with my ranger quite clearly. I also remember the ranger gating jokes and dying A LOT. Took them a year and a half to admit that they maybe shoulda gave rangers a defense increase with the level cap increase. The mountains of data that was dismissed again and again, and it turns out, the players knew what they were talking about.Go figure...<div></div>

BSbon

08-02-2006, 12:44 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bentgate wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think what is going on here, Sirlutt is that most of your previous posts read like trolling comments. The post above that LoreLady is responding too is rather calm and objective. I actually thought it was one of your better posts in this thread( and I have read the whole thing). I remember reading it and saying "Wow! there is a good post from Sirlutt" rather than your utility posts that [Removed for Content] people off and seem to suggest that you do not understand what this thread is really about. However, LoreLady is reacting to you based on all of your previous posts.</P> <P>I can see this whole thread from a bird's eye view and you and lorelady have been at each other the whole thread. I am not saying who is right and who is wrong. Neither is wrong IMHO. But, emotions are tense and tempers have been stoked from your previous posts. You keep pressing utility and while that might make us wanted again, it is not what any Ranger wants. They want their damage to be good enough so that is all that is needed to be in the raid. Ranger's do enough damage to include in the raid - not we want a ranger for this special utility they have. Given that Assassin and Ranger utility is equal (meaning low utility), Assassins are brought to the raid for damage. Why can't it be the same for Rangers? I think this is the point you are missing.</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And i can appreciate that.. i really can.. my point is i remember the days when guilds recruited a bunch of rangers because, OMG the DPS was amazing .. back then yep, you wanted Rangers because their DPS really was awesome.. we wont ever see a return to those days (not intentionally) and thats pretty much what the 30% DPS boost most seem to want will do. <BR><BR>Rangers should not only bring DPS to a raid, because to do that, they need to do MORE DPS than the other T1 classes. When you only have 24 spots, and that last spot is open you want someone who brings the DPS, and can allow other classes to do more DPS, they in effect bring more than just their raw DPS. Rangers dont do that.<BR><BR>Assassins do that, Wizards do that, Warlocks do that, Conjurors and Necro's do that and more. in fact almost ALL the other classes, even the supposed T2 DPs classes bring more to the raid than just their own DPS, they enhance other classes.<BR><BR>Rangers dont... so in reality, to give that last spot in your raid force to a Ranger doesnt really make sense, give it to a class that brings you more procs, more mana, less hate etc etc etc. Give it to someone who lets you change some of the other mechanics in the game more to your favor.<BR><BR>Rangers asked for their DPS boost, and they got it a while ago. Whether it was enough or not isnt really the point. Sony looked at the data and said wow your right we screwed up and heres some DPS. Asking for more when their data says you dont need it is just futile.. whether its right and Rangers need it or not, Sony isnt going to change it.<BR><BR>some data says they are fine, some says they need that 30%, some say its 10-15% .. even if their DPS was on par with other T1 classes chances are, all things being equal and given a choice you'd do yourself a favor by bringing another class with the same DPS, plus the utility... thats my point.<BR><BR>Rangers sufer from 3 main issues.<BR><BR>Cost of their DPS<BR>Their DPS<BR>Their Utility.<BR><BR>Sony has only ever attempted to fix one of those., and whining about getting them to fix that one thing again without fixing the other 2 is just not what *I* think you should be focusing on.<BR><BR>As for LoreLady and I .. well it is what it is.. she admits she's a math person .. so the numbers are what she focus's on .. i'm amongst alot of things a car guy and i've seen SO many times the numbers dont mean jack..its the driver that counts and you run whatcha brung.<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>my only question is: you're an assassin now so why do you care what happens to rangers or care if they ever get "fixed"? planning on coming back if they do?

Jay

08-02-2006, 01:32 AM

<P>Wow, I go away from the forums for a few days and y'all throw a party without me. This one delivers all the best elements of a really uber forum thread. I could make a nice numbered list but I don't want to derail any further. </P> <P>In all seriousness, thanks for posting here and discussing the issue with us, Lockeye. And thanks to the folks from Disso, SD, Amend, and other guilds for providing parses and data.</P> <P>I don't have anything useful to contribute to the discussion (as usual), but I did see one thing that caught my eye - Lockeye said "In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS <STRONG><EM>averages</EM></STRONG>. " [Emphasis mine]</P> <P>Averages. I'm out of my league here, but doesn't that mean the server-wide parses of ALL characters in ALL situations - raid, group, and solo? So on the average, across all players of all classes in all three categories, maybe we look fine. But when you leave the "average" player (with average gear, average upgrades, average skills) in the dust, and you're rolling with very skilled players, in one category - T7 raiding - the "average" doesn't mean that much. It's the ceiling that matters, the potential DPS for the class - and according to several of the top guilds worldwide, the ceiling for rangers is considerably lower than the ceiling for assassins, rogues, summoners, etc. </P> <P>Point being, I think Lockeye can see accurate numbers that confirm the serverwide averages in all three categories, but the high-end raid scene can still show the discrepancy b/w rangers and other DPS classes that many people experience on a daily basis. I don't think one precludes the other, b/c I assume there are far more 'average' rangers out there soloing and grouping than raiding the high-end T7 content. Lockeye is seeing the forest; you guys are seeing the trees. </P> <P>Because really, players like Khalan and Axkiva and guilds like Dissolution and Second Dawn aren't imagining things. These high-end raiding players are seeing an issue firsthand, and are reacting accordingly - by switching from their rangers to new mains, and by declining rangers' guild applications based on thorough testing and parses. If there were not a problem with DPS class balance, they'd be raiding with rangers, plain and simple. </P>

Sirlutt

08-02-2006, 01:37 AM

<div><blockquote><hr>bongotez wrote:<div></div>my only question is: you're an assassin now so why do you care what happens to rangers or care if they ever get "fixed"? planning on coming back if they do?<hr></blockquote>nah i think i am pretty happy with the assassin right now.. and i have my buckler spe'cd guard for fun aswell.. i also have 16 alts and have played every class to 20-25... i'll probably work on a healer if i find Assassin isnt any fun anymoreas for why do i care .. well i do raid, and i have guild mates who are rangers.. i'd love for them to get fixed.</div>