Be honest, where are you on the parsings?

[LoreLady]

I am "generally" around 1100-1400 on raids..I will post my parsings on this sundays HoS raid if enough people show.. Im not asking for high, not asking for lows... Just where you stand as rangers on raids.. Maybe people can identify themselves if they are falling short - where and why. We might as well be the best we can be even if we are in a sad state.

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR>I am "generally" around 1100-1400 on raids..I will post my parsings on this sundays HoS raid if enough people show.. Im not asking for high, not asking for lows... Just where you stand as rangers on raids.. Maybe people can identify themselves if they are falling short - where and why. We might as well be the best we can be even if we are in a sad state.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The problem with posting a parse from one zone is that not every zone's mobs have the same mitigation, certain zones have more multiple mobs, etc.  For example, I generally parse noticeably higher in Labs when we raid Vyemm than I do in HoS.  We also all know that the makeup of the group a ranger is in makes a huge difference.</P> <P>That's why I don't post individual parses (that plus certain guild constraints).  I have parsed many raids over time, however.   And so I am (and have been for some time) generally comfortable posting that my dps is, on average, about 1250 dps (although it's been a few months since I did the analysis, not too much about my character has changed).  Now certainly it's higher in some raid zones, a bit lower in others, and fight to fight it varies.  But 1250 dps is a pretty good point estimate for me.  If anything, it might be a tad higher.</P> <P>As a comparison, my guild's assassins average 1800-1900 dps or so.  Swashbucklers, brigands, necros, and summoners about 1600-1700 or so.  Monks about 1400-1500.</P>

[arkkon]

<DIV>you cant compare dps very accurately. the more overall dps your guild has (aka the better equipped and skilled they are), the more you are going to do.</DIV> <DIV>faster the mob dies the more dps you do.  the more dps your guild has the faster the mob dies.  YaY.  Nevertheless you can still compare yourselves to the other classes in your guild dps wise, considering you dont have any slackers / unskilled people that are there for their...personality <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by arkkon on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 PM</span>

[Lockeye]

<P>Despite the perception issues that have persisted since the Ranger balance changes to their DPS rankings, Rangers are performing very well in DPS across all categories. I constantly analyze data between solo, groups and raids of various sizes across all classes, and Rangers are performing between ranks 1-4 in DPS in all size categories, with an average ranking of 2.2 (just slightly above average T1 DPS).<BR><BR>In my experience as a player that groups and raids with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or raid, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.</P>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>Sorry Lockeye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Those of us playing the class dont see the same rosy picture.  I am usually 6th in parses behind conjurers, brigands, swashbucklers, and of course assassins.  My rank for the night depends on how many assassins are on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That whooshing sound is rangers betraying to assassins!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Edited for spelling)</DIV><p>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:05 PM</span>

[CrazedMut]

<div></div>Lockeye your guild make-up might be a bit different to other guilds. In our guild we have a good balance of DPS classes. Parses go something like this..Assasin -> Assasin -> Conjuror/Necro -> Swashbuckler -> Ranger -> Ranger -> (...Bruiser/Zerker/Sorcerer follows)Now of course gear and spell quality come to play especially as Fabled DW for Assassins are VERY easy to come by compared to Fabled Bows, but very very rarely does the Ranger come top of our DPS parses.<div></div><p>Message Edited by CrazedMutha on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:12 PM</span>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <P>Despite the perception issues that have persisted since the Ranger balance changes to their DPS rankings, Rangers are performing very well in DPS across all categories. I constantly analyze data between solo, groups and raids of various sizes across all classes, and Rangers are performing between ranks 1-4 in DPS in all size categories, with an average ranking of 2.2 (just slightly above average T1 DPS).<BR><BR>In my experience as a player that groups and raids with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or raid, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I assume by this statement, that your planning to lower rogue and summoner damage since they parse above Rangers all the time?</P> <P>By my ranking Rogues are ranking 3.1 and summoners a 4.0. If "very well" means below Rogues, Summoners, Wizards, and Assasins consistently then yeah I guess they are balanced.</P>

[Lockeye]

<DIV>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 PM</span>

[Gareorn]

<P>Wow!</P> <P>/em blinks</P> <P>Just... Wow.</P>

[USAFJeeper]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CrazedMutha wrote:<BR> Lockeye your guild make-up might be a bit different to other guilds. In our guild we have a good balance of DPS classes. Parses go something like this..<BR><BR>Assasin -> Assasin -> Conjuror/Necro -> Swashbuckler -> Ranger -> Ranger -> (...Bruiser/Zerker/Sorcerer follows)<BR><BR>Now of course gear and spell quality come to play especially as Fabled DW for Assassins are VERY easy to come by compared to Fabled Bows, but very very rarely does the Ranger come top of our DPS parses.<BR> <P>Message Edited by CrazedMutha on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>THis is a true statment Crazed.  All teh assassins et al I am with have the very good weapons while I am stuck on Grizz.  I think gear is a lot as far as weapons and DPS go.</P> <P> </P>

[CrazedMut]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well raw data is fun and all, but I'm <b>telling you</b> first-hand that our most active player is an experienced, well-equipped Ranger, and all 3 of our active Assasins absolutely destroy him in terms of DPS <b>every single fight, without fail. </b>The other two rangers we have barely get a look in above our Warriors and Brawlers.</div>

[Tseri]

<DIV>meh, forget it.  Posting when irritated doesn't bring anything good.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tseri on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:37 PM</span>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for the reply, I guess I'll have to talk to my guildies about fabricating the parses and magically making it to the top every time.

[curtlewis]

<div><blockquote><hr>CrazedMutha wrote:<div></div>Lockeye your guild make-up might be a bit different to other guilds. In our guild we have a good balance of DPS classes. Parses go something like this..Assasin -> Assasin -> Conjuror/Necro -> Swashbuckler -> Ranger -> Ranger -> (...Bruiser/Zerker/Sorcerer follows)Now of course gear and spell quality come to play especially as Fabled DW for Assassins are VERY easy to come by compared to Fabled Bows, but very very rarely does the Ranger come top of our DPS parses.<div></div><hr></blockquote>My guild parses a bit different:Conjuror->Necro->Assassin->Wizard->RangerWe have 2 conjurors and 2 necros, 2 wizards, a couple Rangers.  The Swash is new, but I don't think he's providing competition yet, but  I have NEVER been able to beat a swash in DPS in a group, even when he was the tank for the group.  The only time (as a Wizard) that I got CLOSE was when Fusion, FreehandSorcery and IceNova were both up.  And that wasn't enough, even when chain casting.It's very clear that class balance is messed up.  I know the Producer stated he has no problems with Summoners doing top DPS, but I'm sorry, he obviously doesn't understand WHY they shouldn't.  They're loaded with advantages that aren't offset by disadvantages.  Split aggro, double mana/hp pool, hearts/shards, COH, rezzes, top DPS every raid, etc...  When T2 classes are doing the Top DPS raid after raid over all the T1 classes, it should be pretty clear there are balancing issues.</div>

[Peston]

ha... ya kidding?oh well.. I guess that's why we aren't game designers <span>:smileyindifferent:</span><div></div>

[arkkon]

<DIV>If you want to observe a rangers average dps then observe a top ww guilds raids and check their rangers dps. </DIV> <DIV>(reason being that the other dps classes wont suck [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], therefore NOT falsely glorifying the rangers dps) </DIV> <DIV>Dont observe a guild where the scouts aa and go afk.  Or the summoner forgets to press pet attack.</DIV> <DIV>Kthx. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, no [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] are any of those classes going to outdamage a ranger solo. </DIV> <DIV>BURST DAMAGE.</DIV> <DIV>MORE DPS in short encounters. most of the rangers worthwhile abilities are on a 1 minute timer.</DIV> <DIV>Ranger vs down arrow mob.  It dies before it reaches the ranger. 2 second life.  It takes longer for any other class to kill it.</DIV> <DIV>Same thing in groups(because heroic mobs had their hp decreased) yaay for remembering your own updates. +50 dkp</DIV> <DIV>As long as the ranger gets off focus fire, devit,triple,amazing, that ranger is fine if the mob dies in the next few seconds.  This is excluding a veiled shot at the beginning of the fight before you cast focus fire.  Or sniper shot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone remember that the devs only test with ap3 spells and bad gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by arkkon on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:48 PM</span>

[Victicu]

    I can give you entire zone parses where in every single fight the conj, swash, and brigand matched or did significantly more dps than the ranger.<div></div>

[Merkad]

It is a bit of a shock to find out I suck, I must admit. In my defense, I was busy buffing and debuffing everyone and everything...Merkades, 70th Ranger.Siege, Najena.

[pera]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm sorry but our brigs are doing 1.7 to 2.2 easly and ranger 1.2-1.7, haha i see most brigs even beatign sorc.  Unless you are looking at a handful of the very best rangers on all the servers your numbers cant be right.</div>

[arkkon]

<DIV>Any ranger doing the top dps in their guild needs to leave that guild or help that guild realize that every summoner and rogue on that raid and in that guild sucks. /hint dev, try again.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rofl btw.  Who named the t7 ranger skills [Removed for Content]. </DIV> <DIV>Natural Selection ----> Selection(rofl)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you might as well name it RangerAEattack.</DIV>

[ChaosUndivided]

<P>Come on Guys, it's obvious Lockeye is able to observe some really uber rangers.</P> <P>We all just suck and should just Learn2 Play.</P><p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 PM</span>

[mochl]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div> In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. </div><hr></blockquote>LOL, Conjurers, Necromancers, Swashbuckler's and Brigands absolutely obliterate Ranger DPS <u>all</u> the time. If youre not seeing this in your data then you need to fix your data collection tools because theyre a bit broken. Brig damage is pretty good and Swash damage is astronomical by comparison. I'm talking raid equipped toons here, in both raid and group situations. My ranger can still do some amazing stuff, i can still solo heroics with my ranger (though with much greater effort than before). However my ranger does not come anywhere close to a swash or brig in terms of raw damage yet offers a group very little in exchange for it. Even assassins get apply poison and aggro transfer, a luxury that rangers do not receive. Yeah rangers get what? Two debuffs? Name a class that doesnt get at least 2 debuffs of some kind though. </div>

[arkkon]

<DIV><STRONG>Lockeye if there is anything i want you to read its this.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A ranger will only get the top dps or average dps on a raid if the other members on that raid who are summoners and rogues arent at least doing average dps.  This means that they are doing less than what they could be doing.  If you assume that a top ww guild is going to have every member be able to fill out their class role to a point then you can assume that any information gained from them will be very near to accurate.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want damage i want dps Meow Mix Meow Mix please deliver.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arkkon wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you want to observe a rangers average dps then observe a top ww guilds raids and check their rangers dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would gladly post parses of our rangers, like I post parses of myself, except my guild got rid of all our rangers when we realized they couldn't do the dps of a rogue or summoner, and didn't have the utility either.  I'm not sure if I'm in a top guild or not though...

[Nak]

Do you notice in the first post he says first hand expierence in raiding, grouping, and soloing he said everything was fine. However in the second post, it was raw data. Is it me or is he contradicting himself? 1st thing: since when are devs allowed to raid? I was fairly certian they weren't allowed in guilds ( incidents with npu accused of having a gm ? ) Which guild are you giving an unfair advantage to in killing with? obviously it must have players that do not know how to optimize their class in it if a ranger is always going to have potential to be #1. Or was your first hand raid encounters off pick up nonsense with people not knowing [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] they're doing. 2nd thing: When you analize this "raw data" what are you doing? looking at the dps from performing CA's, or looking at the dmg numbers on the CA's...they're two completely different things... 3rd thing: ask the majority of high end raiding guilds... NONE OF THEM will ever say a ranger would straight up out dps a conjurer ever ever ever ever ever ( on some occasions they may, but not 100% like your saying a ranger has the potential to) 4th thing: If rangers and assassins are so equal as you state, how come many rangers are betraying to assassins, and hardly anyone has ever heard of an assassin betraying to a ranger? Don't give me that playstyle bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] excuse either. 5th thing: If you, lockeye, think every ranger sucks and thats why their not desired in raids, not because something is unbalanced. Please tell me I suck, and ban me from the forums right now, please <div></div>

[Badd Boy]

<div></div>Here is something else you may not want to hear. If you rangers are constantly getting out dps'd by that many classes, you plain suck. I am sick and tired of rangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. OMG, please stop with the whining. This board is sick and pathetic. If you guys want to learn how to be on top of your parses please shoot me a tell in game, I will hook you up with some good rangers who know how to play there class, in game instead of on the boards whining about it. Be good boys and girls.... I'll be back in a little bit to check on ya and change your diapers and put you down for a nap.Oh and as an FYI...... The DPS in our guild is constantly like this... in the top 4 in no particular order because it is extremely situational. Conjurors/Necros......Rangers......Berserkers......and Wizards/Warlocks.Our bruiser pulls and sets traps alot so is dead during fights a ton, so I do not have any proof to tell you about there DPS.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Badd Boy on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:17 PM</span>

[jarnpraetor]

<DIV>In the high end raiding world, here are the DPS tiers;</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurer</DIV> <DIV>Assassin</DIV> <DIV>Rogues/Necro</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers</DIV> <DIV>Wizard/Warlock/<STRONG>RANGER</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Monks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Nak]

<blockquote><hr>Badd Boy wrote:Here is something else you may not want to hear. If you rangers are constantly getting out dps'd by that many classes, you plain suck. I am sick and tired orangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. OMG, please stop with the whining. This board is sick and pathetic. If you guys want to learn how to be on top of your parses please shoot me a tell in game, I will hook you up with some good rangers who know how to play there class, in game instead of on the boards whining about it. Be good boys and girls.... I'll be back in a little bit to check on ya and change your diapers and put you down for a nap.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Just because people you play with suck, that make your ranger look good, doesn't mean a class on the high end is fine. k thx <div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR>Here is something else you may not want to hear. If you rangers are constantly getting out dps'd by that many classes, you plain suck. I am sick and tired orangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. OMG, please stop with the whining. This board is sick and pathetic. If you guys want to learn how to be on top of your parses please shoot me a tell in game, I will hook you up with some good rangers who know how to play there class, in game instead of on the boards whining about it. Be good boys and girls.... I'll be back in a little bit to check on ya and change your diapers and put you down for a nap.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just because people you play with suck, that make your ranger look good, doesn't mean a class on the high end is fine. k thx<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly what I was going to say!

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR>Here is something else you may not want to hear. If you rangers are constantly getting out dps'd by that many classes, you plain suck. I am sick and tired orangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. OMG, please stop with the whining. This board is sick and pathetic. If you guys want to learn how to be on top of your parses please shoot me a tell in game, I will hook you up with some good rangers who know how to play there class, in game instead of on the boards whining about it. Be good boys and girls.... I'll be back in a little bit to check on ya and change your diapers and put you down for a nap.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just because people you play with suck, that make your ranger look good, doesn't mean a class on the high end is fine. k thx<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't say it but I agree with it.  Sorry man, ranger dps =/= assassin dps, or anywhere close.<BR>

[jarnpraetor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR> Oh and as an FYI...... The DPS in our guild is constantly like this... in the top 4 in no particular order because it is extremely situational.<BR><BR>Conjurors/Necros......Rangers......Berserkers......and Wizards/Warlocks.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Berzerkers?!?!?!</P> <P>You should delete your toon and your guild.</P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR> Oh and as an FYI...... The DPS in our guild is constantly like this... in the top 4 in no particular order because it is extremely situational. <BR><BR>Conjurors/Necros......Rangers......Berserkers......and Wizards/Warlocks.<BR><BR>Our bruiser pulls and sets traps alot so is dead during fights a ton, so I do not have any proof to tell you about there DPS.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Badd Boy on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:17 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or your Sorcs suck.  You also don't have any assassins do you?  Or how about Rogues?  They should be up there as well.  What about Illusionists?  They can dish out DPS too, but obviously you don't have a very DPS-oriented one.  I mean either the people in your guild aren't the greatest at the game, or wait, that's obviously it.<p>Message Edited by Pinski on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 PM</span>

[Peston]

lets not change the subject! lol..lockeye told us we are wrong... im not understanding why...<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR> <BR><BR><BR>Conjurors/Necros......Rangers......Berserkers......and Wizards/Warlocks.<BR><BR><BR> <P><BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yea, please tell me you don't have any assassins.<BR>

[Badd Boy]

Yes, I said berserkers. AE fights, berserkers own. Most T7 raids are AE. Can I outdps a berserker. Yes and I do most of the time. I am telling you how it comes up. If you dont like it fine. Our raid averages about 13k-15k dps sometimes more sometimes less. If that is not in line with you guys that it's not. It is what I see "first hand" since you guys like to use that term. Stand back and look at the classes that have been nerfed. You rangers were nerfed, I understand. I feel your pain. What I don't like is always browsing class boards and seeing the whining. You don't like your class, betray. One more thing, berserkers are on parse a ton. Not all the time....but a ton. I talk to our rangers all the time and ask them what is going on....they say the same exact thing..I stay away from our class boards because they whine too much. Shoot a tell to our ranger and talk to him. I don't wanna mention there names on here but you can look at our guild page and see it. You think I am full of crap..fine. I don't have to prove a thing to you guys. Obviously Lockeye is seeing it for himself.<div></div>

[Badd Boy]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Badd Boy wrote: <div></div>Conjurors/Necros......Rangers......Berserkers......and Wizards/Warlocks. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Yea, please tell me you don't have any assassins.<hr></blockquote>Heh, we do have one. He is in recruit status and does not raid as much with us atm. Our Assassin changed servers some time ago. I can't speak for assassins, so I did not throw them in.</div>

[Peston]

<div></div>Badd Boy that is the problem though. Why are you proud that your Berserkers on top? The Devs have specifically stated that they are not supposed to be T1 dps. Now we have the dev saying again that we as rangers are full of it, and our parsings are way out of wack... hmm.. LOTS of contradicting information going on...and on second thought.. I'm done... this is beyond belief<div></div><p>Message Edited by Peston on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 PM</span>

[Wil81115]

<DIV>Why should we bother any longer.  It's obvious SOE doesn't really care, or their data is just plain WRONG and you choose to hide behide it without checking a wider sampling.  Seriosuly, how about you follow a high end raiding guild around for a few nights and see the parses.. Oh wait most of those guilds don't have a Ranger(s) anymore.  Why is that? Can't be because their DPS is lower then other classes, some of which are suppose to be LOWER DPS then the Rangers but they bring alot more utility and MORE DPS to the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Anxi]

<DIV>Lockeye,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's see your raw data. Let's see how it stacks up against all the parses here. It's one thing to say you have the data, it's quite another to share said data.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[TaleraRis]

<blockquote><hr> I am sick and tired of rangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. <hr></blockquote>I don't see anyone here looking to get a class nerfed, especially because that is exactly what happened to us.  I see a lot of people with good points that are posting good information to get US boosted to where we should be. That's how most have tried to be around here, constructive and informative. The only one whining here is you about the feedback that people are giving.<div></div>

[Nak]

I bet Lockeye is in Badd Boy's guild <div></div>

[ProphecyCT]

Glad to say, we have no rangers in the guild!  Why do I think a large amount of rangers will be betraying to assassins soon =p?<div></div>

[ProphecyCT]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. I<b>n <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. </b>What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>That's just wow... lol...I bet our Conjurer, Necro, Swashie and Brigand would take that bet anyday =p.</div>

[ProphecyCT]

All guilds should start using this abbreviation.<font face="Arial"></font><font face="Century" size="6"><font face="Arial">TGWHNR<font size="7"><b>T</b></font>hank <font size="7"><b>G</b></font>od, <b><font size="7">w</font></b>e <b><font size="7">h</font></b>ave <b><font size="7">n</font></b>o <b><font size="7">r</font></b>angers<b><font size="7">!</font></b></font></font><div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

I was serious.  I'd gladly show you parses where our summoners and rogues (and myself) routinely beat a ranger.  Except, we don't have any rangers.  I'm kind of hoping maybe Khalan would be able to though, I know Second Dawn has some rangers, and I'm sure they don't suck.

[Marlow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sorry Lockeye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Those of us playing the class dont see the same rosy picture.  I am usually 6th in parses behind conjurers, brigands, swashbucklers, and of course assassins.  My rank for the night depends on how many assassins are on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That whooshing sound is rangers betraying to assassins!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Edited for spelling)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:05 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>quit crying.</P> <P> </P> <P>FFS, deal with the fact that you're a mid-range DPS/support toon.</P> <P> </P> <P>Its NOT EQ1, you dragon fodder toad.</P>

[Marlow]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR>Here is something else you may not want to hear. If you rangers are constantly getting out dps'd by that many classes, you plain suck. I am sick and tired orangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. OMG, please stop with the whining. This board is sick and pathetic. If you guys want to learn how to be on top of your parses please shoot me a tell in game, I will hook you up with some good rangers who know how to play there class, in game instead of on the boards whining about it. Be good boys and girls.... I'll be back in a little bit to check on ya and change your diapers and put you down for a nap.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just because people you play with suck, that make your ranger look good, doesn't mean a class on the high end is fine. k thx<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>actually, he plays a Nec, toolbox.</P> <P> </P> <P>kkthx bye.</P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> USAFJeeper wrote:<BR> <DIV>Sorry Lockeye <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Those of us playing the class dont see the same rosy picture.  I am usually 6th in parses behind conjurers, brigands, swashbucklers, and of course assassins.  My rank for the night depends on how many assassins are on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That whooshing sound is rangers betraying to assassins!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Edited for spelling)</DIV> <P>Message Edited by USAFJeeper on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:05 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>quit crying.</P> <P> </P> <P>FFS, deal with the fact that you're a mid-range DPS/support toon.</P> <P> </P> <P>Its NOT EQ1, you dragon fodder toad.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm sorry, but Lockeye specifically stated that Rangers were 2.2 in the DPS-poll.  Which would mean they are TOP DPS.  Therefore you sir, have just been served.

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Marlow wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Naku9 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR>Here is something else you may not want to hear. If you rangers are constantly getting out dps'd by that many classes, you plain suck. I am sick and tired orangers whining into oblivion until you get classes nerfed. OMG, please stop with the whining. This board is sick and pathetic. If you guys want to learn how to be on top of your parses please shoot me a tell in game, I will hook you up with some good rangers who know how to play there class, in game instead of on the boards whining about it. Be good boys and girls.... I'll be back in a little bit to check on ya and change your diapers and put you down for a nap.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just because people you play with suck, that make your ranger look good, doesn't mean a class on the high end is fine. k thx<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>actually, he plays a Nec, toolbox.</P> <P> </P> <P>kkthx bye.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>He's saying, the other people in his (badd's) guild suck, and make his (badd's) guilds ranger look good.  Understand now?

[Ranvarenaya]

Yeah, we have rangers, and I kinda hope we don't suck.  I don't get beat by rogues on average (though on some single parses they do beat me).  I can hang near assassins, often it goes assassin > me > assassin, with rogues and sorcerers right behind.  However, put a necro in there and the whole equation gets borked.  Summoners, specifically necromancers, are head and shoulders above us on a pretty regular basis.  Sometimes I can beat our necro, but over the course of a raid the average necro number is so absurdly beyond what I can put out I don't even use it as a frame of reference or goal anymore<div></div>

[Nak]

<div></div>Badd Boy < Murlow ? or Murlow < Badd boy? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Naku9 on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 PM</span>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR>Yeah, we have rangers, and I kinda hope we don't suck.  I don't get beat by rogues on average (though on some single parses they do beat me).  I can hang near assassins, often it goes assassin > me > assassin, with rogues and sorcerers right behind.  However, put a necro in there and the whole equation gets borked.  Summoners, specifically necromancers, are head and shoulders above us on a pretty regular basis.  Sometimes I can beat our necro, but over the course of a raid the average necro number is so absurdly beyond what I can put out I don't even use it as a frame of reference or goal anymore<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Would it be too much to ask to see a zone wide parse that has your rangers on it and where they stand?  Preferably with a necro on there too... this is the one time I really wish Disso had a ranger so I could post one myself =

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR>Thanks for the reply, I guess I'll have to talk to my guildies about fabricating the parses and magically making it to the top every time.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey bud, just have all your necro's and conj's name their pet's "Khalan", and you will show up in the parse again!

[Ranvarenaya]

I actually had a zone-wide parse of Lab and closed it about 2 minutes before I looked at this post, but our assassins were away tonight.  I might be able to come up with something after the weekend.<div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR>I actually had a zone-wide parse of Lab and closed it about 2 minutes before I looked at this post, but our assassins were away tonight.  I might be able to come up with something after the weekend.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So, just open ACT again and parse it again.  It's fairly simple.

[Dasein]

<P></P> <HR> Do you notice in the first post he says first hand expierence in raiding, grouping, and soloing he said everything was fine.<BR><BR>However in the second post, it was raw data. <P>Is it me or is he contradicting himself?</P> <HR> <P>No, why would it be contradictory? He's relating both personal experience as a player and server-wide parses that he has access to as a dev. There's no contradiction.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nak]

he said it was expeirience first, then he changed the expierience to it being hard data <div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div>I just dont know what to say on this.. I havent seen parsings myself, I am only above our summoners and rouges due to exploitive tactics.. Maybe we should get all assassins to do the rangers dance..I dont understand what 2.2 means.. 2.2k dps?  On what fights? What rangers? Can anyone prove anything wrong?When sony makes it that you have to wait to reuse auto attack on melee after ranged(waiting 7 seconds before melee) it will show up on there end.. but hey..Im goign to avoid the fourms for abit.. Give it about a week or so, then i'll jump back in.</div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just dont know what to say on this.. I havent seen parsings myself, I am only above our summoners and rouges due to exploitive tactics.. Maybe we should get all assassins to do the rangers dance..<BR><BR>I dont understand what 2.2 means.. 2.2k dps?  On what fights? What rangers? Can anyone prove anything wrong?<BR><BR>When sony makes it that you have to wait to reuse auto attack on melee after ranged(waiting 7 seconds before melee) it will show up on there end.. but hey..<BR><BR>Im goign to avoid the fourms for abit.. Give it about a week or so, then i'll jump back in.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>2.2 means that you should be between 2nd and 3rd, leaning more towards 2nd place, in terms of the overall 24 class balance in ranking of just solely DPS.  At least, that's what I would think it means.

[Drainlo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <P>Despite the perception issues that have persisted since the Ranger balance changes to their DPS rankings, Rangers are performing very well in DPS across all categories. I constantly analyze data between solo, groups and raids of various sizes across all classes, and Rangers are performing between ranks 1-4 in DPS in all size categories, with an average ranking of 2.2 (just slightly above average T1 DPS).<BR><BR>In my experience as a player that groups and raids with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or raid, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>thank you SOE for telling me i suck at playing ur game :/

[justright]

Well ok then, they finally did what we asked them to do in a number of threads. A Dev have responded to all the concerns and stated that they think we are fine when it comes to DPS. That means we wont be adjusted as many of us want. Those playing a ranger for the DPS and raiding will most likely betray to assasin and those playing a ranger for the character of the class will prolly stay (and roll out an alt). Some might even quit game i guess. Cant say im happy about the outcome but thats where its at. <div></div>

[Teksun]

<DIV>just leads me to believe that something is either wrong with there parsers or with 9/10 of the rangers in the forums...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Teksun on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 PM</span>

[Riversideblues]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>now, im in now way debating your zonewide/serverwide parse things, but go checkout a raiding guild with a ranger in it, see where he stands up to the other classes, i know i haven't been beaten by one (im a brigand) in t7, nor have i known any other t1-2 dps ever lose to one regularily. Im just thinking, there has to be something missing in your serverparses, check encounter parses of raid guilds that have rangers (if you can find many) i can bet they will very much differfrom yours. even still, send me or anyone in dissolution a PM, ill give you our server parsechannel and you can read our average dps, and find a ranger in game that could match or beat our t1-2 dps, and hey, maybe ill comp your account <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />edit, btw, our parses go like this generallyassassin-> necro or conj -> wizard -> brigand -> brigand -> zerker -> warlockif we did have a ranger in guild, he wouldn't make top8, i've seen our templar do the kind of dps our old ranger use to average before he quit (yes, it's over 1000 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</div><p>Message Edited by Riversideblues on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:29 PM</span>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.</div>

[TaleraRis]

<blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ChaosUndivided wrote: <div></div>Thanks for the reply, I guess I'll have to talk to my guildies about fabricating the parses and magically making it to the top every time. <hr> </blockquote>Hey bud, just have all your necro's and conj's name their pet's "Khalan", and you will show up in the parse again!<hr></blockquote>LOL<div></div>

[TaleraRis]

<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.</div><hr></blockquote>So what you're saying is that a large majority of well-respected rangers here are nothing but a bunch of liars and don't know how to play their class? <div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Anxion wrote:<div>Lockeye,</div> <div> </div> <div>Let's see your raw data. Let's see how it stacks up against all the parses here. It's one thing to say you have the data, it's quite another to share said data.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>i'd love to see some of this data too.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TaleraRis wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:28 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.<BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So what you're saying is that a large majority of well-respected rangers here are nothing but a bunch of liars and don't know how to play their class? <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, that's what both him and lockeye are implying.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>TaleraRis wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.</div><hr></blockquote>So what you're saying is that a large majority of well-respected rangers here are nothing but a bunch of liars and don't know how to play their class? <div></div><hr></blockquote>nopeBut in the majority of rangers do not raid, they group and solo.  Their DPS is just fine usually.When you have 90% with a decent average, and 10% with a lower average, the overall average is still going to be ok.  The data  is correct.It doesnt represent a raiding ranger neccissarily.. </div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>It doesnt represent a raiding ranger neccissarily..<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um...</P> <P>In my experience as a player that groups and <STRONG>raids</STRONG> with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or <STRONG>raid</STRONG>, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.</P> <P></P> <DIV>===========================<BR>Jared Sweatt<BR>EverQuest II Spells</DIV>

[ChaosUndivided]

<P>After the whole "We didn't know 60% of ranger DPS came from Procs" Fiasco, I take their "data" with a grain of salt.</P> <P> </P> <P>He just stated Rogues and Summoners don't ever outdps Rangers. If that's not enough to throw doubt into his statement I don't know what is.</P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div>It doesnt represent a raiding ranger neccissarily..</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Um...</p> <p>In my experience as a player that groups and <strong>raids</strong> with a few raid equipped Rangers, I haven't seen anything to indicate from their parsers that Rangers would be deficient in producing anything short of the top ranking DPS numbers for their group or <strong>raid</strong>, and it reflects what I see in Ranger serverwide performance across all player categories.</p> <p></p> <div>===========================Jared SweattEverQuest II Spells</div><hr></blockquote>i see the same thing.. the rangers i raid with do fine on the parses, we all trade up top spot on the parses depnding on whose timers are up etc etc etc.I think the data is correct.. i think its alot more correct than anything i've seen on the forums, even individual parses.  they only show you what an individual , or gorup of ondividuals do .. says nothing to the class as a whole across all servers.</div>

[MystaSkrat]

I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <EM>post</EM> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.

[Tarryn]

<P>It's very disheartening to see such a post by a dev.  I cannot understand how their "data" so obviously conflicts with so many people's direct experience.  I'd really like to see where all this damage is coming from--it's not from our sub-par CAs, and it's not from our sub-par DR bows...so what is all this uber dps coming from?</P> <P>I mean...are the damage numbers/refresh rates on all the CAs and bows just displaying wrongly?  Are we actually doing much more damage than is showing up on log parsing?  If that's the case, could these display problems be corrected so we know where we stand? :p</P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div>I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <em>post</em> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.<hr></blockquote>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <EM>post</EM> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.

[MystaSkrat]

If I was a ranger the first thing I'd be doing is posting parses that say, look at the summoners and assassins kill me in dps.  Look at the rogues.  But I'm not a ranger, you guys are on your own there.

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey, I have a better way to compare to classes that do nothing but DPS.  Wait, no I don't.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> MystaSkratch wrote: <div></div>I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <em>post</em> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers. <hr> </blockquote>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.</div> <hr> </blockquote>And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.<hr></blockquote>yep but they dont just have the parses of one zone with 2 rangers on a random night.. or 5 zones over 3 weeks of 4 rangers.. or what ever you want to throw up.they have the data of every battle that every ranger across every server has fought. I am betting they run all kinds of mining on it to mean it, probably bell curve it and god knows what else.  I guarantee you they dont just run it though through ACT.Race teams dont run down to the nearest mustang dyno generally for tuning, they pull the engine and put it on an engine dyno and do tuning there.  Sony monitors probably a whole bunch of data points throughout the game, who kills what, who loots what.. who buys what.. their parses arent concerned with how close you are to the action, or the lag ... or how many seconds after message xyz in your log to stop the timer.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

Ill see if I can bring Khalan out of retirement for a few raids skratch and post what parses I have. Keep in mind we're not as much of a dps orientated guild as you guys but our ratios of damage should still be the same.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> </blockquote>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison. </div> <hr> </blockquote>Hey, I have a better way to compare to classes that do nothing but DPS.  Wait, no I don't.<hr></blockquote>compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses.  Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <EM>post</EM> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>yep but they dont just have the parses of one zone with 2 rangers on a random night.. or 5 zones over 3 weeks of 4 rangers.. or what ever you want to throw up.<BR><BR>they have the data of every battle that every ranger across every server has fought. I am betting they run all kinds of mining on it to mean it, probably bell curve it and god knows what else.  I guarantee you they dont just run it though through ACT.<BR><BR>Race teams dont run down to the nearest mustang dyno generally for tuning, they pull the engine and put it on an engine dyno and do tuning there.  <BR><BR>Sony monitors probably a whole bunch of data points throughout the game, who kills what, who loots what.. who buys what.. their parses arent concerned with how close you are to the action, or the lag ... or how many seconds after message xyz in your log to stop the timer.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah and I don't look at 2 parses and determine Rangers need help either. I look at hundred's of parses over 6 months of raiding, I look at tons of parses from other raiding guilds, 1st hand accounts of ranger damage. </P> <P>And honestly raw server data like they would be collecting does no good either as far as I'm cocerned since it has no context. It has no real game play factors taken into consideration. Their are a ton of intangibles raw data like that will never pick up but a smart player with a parse will do absolutely that.</P> <P>This isn't just about Top Dps, it's about <EM>Potential</EM> DPS also.</P>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <EM>post</EM> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Perhaps we should allow an experienced and well geared ranger to app, with an offer to guild them if they can make the top 6 parse on any raid.</P> <P>IMO, that would provide the most credible proof possible that what we know is correct and what the devs believe in this matter is incorrect.</P>

[Balerius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sigh.  This is just what I was afraid of.  SoE's dps measurement tools are crude averaging data collectors. They don't follow <STRONG><EM><U>specific</U></EM></STRONG> raids...they take server-wide averages.</P> <P>SoE probably defines a "raid" as any grouping of more than 6 players.  Their automated data collector probably tabulates data with that definition in mind.  Face it, there are a lot of pretty poorly constructed "raids" out there with some pretty poor players.  Think pick up relic runs...those are probably called "raids".  Think of "random casual guild 01" who raids 2 or 3 times a week...a relic run, Lyceeum (where they don't beat all the names and/or get their heads handed to them) and some T6 content.  Now multiply "random casual guild 01" times 10 or 15 for the other so-called raid guilds on each server.  Tabulate all that data...average it all together...and its no wonder that rangers do ok relative to the other classes.  The dps performance of rangers (and other classes) is going to be overall craptastic...rangers in those events are probably just a bit less craptastic.  Server averages such as these are in no way representative of what occurs in high end guilds fighting high end content.  Just by weight of numbers the server dps averages will be reduced to the lowest common denominators.</P> <P>So you might say "Well, what's the problem?  Averages are averages...and rangers on average are better at dps than rogues, etc."</P> <P>I'll tell you:  because averages don't indicate how classes scale in dps when in high performing raids with high performing players.</P> <P>An analogy.  Think of racecars.  Now "driver R"  drives a late model Pontiac.  He races in short track and dirt track races all over the country.  In these races, all of the cars are recent models but with mostly stock parts.  No one has a lot of money to get the best engines/tuning/etc.  The drivers are all one step above amateurs.  "Driver R" with his Pontiac drives in 25 races and he generally finishes in the top 2 or 3 spots.  He's on average pretty good, right?</P> <P>So one day "Driver R" with his Pontiac get to race at a real NASCAR race.  His sponsor gives him a little money.  His Pontiac gets a bit of race tuning, but no major overhaul.  He gets a first class pit/support crew, just like all the other cars in the race.  "Driver R" and his Pontiac finish 10 laps behind the next to last finisher.  "Driver R" must suck...right?  Not really.  His car is simply outclassed.  No amount of tuning will overcome the basic inferiority of the car itself in a real NASCAR race where only the best drivers race and all cars have the best equipment and are tuned to perform to their maximum potential.  "Driver R's" Pontiac needs a completely new engine, tires, and other racing modifications to compete in NASCAR.</P> <P>So after the race, "Driver R" goes to his sponsor and says that his car needs a complete overhaul to be able to compete.  But his sponsor says "No way.  On average you've been finishing in the top 2 or 3 spots in your races".  "You just need to drive better".  Unfortunately for "Driver R", NASCAR officials, upon hearing of "Driver R's" sponsor's obtuseness, tell "Driver R" that he and his car are no longer welcome at NASCAR races...others will provide better entertainment and be more safe to the other drivers.</P> <P>So "Driver R" is condemned to race the rest of his career on short tracks.  He wanted to fly with the eagles but he will only waddle with the turkeys.  But on average, he'll be a 2.2 turkey.</P>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses. <BR><BR>Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Say I post a 3 Princes parse that has me and the conjuror doing 1500 dps for 5 minutes, the necro and wizard doing 1200, and the rogues at 1000.  Would you (or anyone) be able to post a parse of 3 Princes with the same classes and a ranger in it?  That would let you compare my parse to yours (by what classes did what) and  then where your rangers are at from there.  Yea, there's a lot of variables, but we're talking high end raiding here.  If you're not in a group where your stats are capped and you're getting buffs that benefit you, then you aren't exactly raiding high end yet.  If mobs aren't being debuffed to their fullest, then you aren't raiding high end yet.  It wouldn't be the perfect comparison, but it's better than the current comparison you guys have, which is nothing at all.<BR>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> ChaosUndivided wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> MystaSkratch wrote: <div></div>I'm sorry, but didn't you just betray to assassin a little while ago?  I'm not saying you don't know what you're doing, but comparing a rangers' parse to a month old assassins' parse isn't really doing much.  I'm still waiting for someone to actually <em>post</em> a parse, not just talk about it.  I would, but alas, no rangers. <hr> </blockquote>I'm not the only Assassin that we have and I dont have much faith in parses and tools of comparison.  Useless just like car Dyno's are fro comparing 2 different things.</div> <hr> </blockquote>And what do you think those things that SoE Uses to collect data are? Their just server side parses. <hr> </blockquote>yep but they dont just have the parses of one zone with 2 rangers on a random night.. or 5 zones over 3 weeks of 4 rangers.. or what ever you want to throw up.they have the data of every battle that every ranger across every server has fought. I am betting they run all kinds of mining on it to mean it, probably bell curve it and god knows what else.  I guarantee you they dont just run it though through ACT.Race teams dont run down to the nearest mustang dyno generally for tuning, they pull the engine and put it on an engine dyno and do tuning there.  Sony monitors probably a whole bunch of data points throughout the game, who kills what, who loots what.. who buys what.. their parses arent concerned with how close you are to the action, or the lag ... or how many seconds after message xyz in your log to stop the timer.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Yeah and I don't look at 2 parses and determine Rangers need help either. I look at hundred's of parses over 6 months of raiding, I look at tons of parses from other raiding guilds, 1st hand accounts of ranger damage. </p> <p>And honestly raw server data like they would be collecting does no good either as far as I'm cocerned since it has no context. It has no real game play factors taken into consideration. Their are a ton of intangibles raw data like that will never pick up but a smart player with a parse will do absolutely that.</p> <p>This isn't just about Top Dps, it's about <em>Potential</em> DPS also.</p><hr></blockquote>seenow that i can agree with pretty much .. but its the same for parses.  you mentioned above you'd get some parses to compare, but with so many of the variables being different, who isnt to say that the things that are "not the same" across the 2 parses arent whats making them different ?you probably did this in junior high science class, you cant compare 2 sets of data where you arent controlling the variables, not effectively anyhow.  You can draw vague conclusions from it perhaps, and maybe thats what people are doing.  But you cant compare the damage you as a ranger did against what skratch does unless your in the same raid fighting the same mobs with the same debuffs on them with the same equipment.  Take ALL of the other factors out of the equation so its just your raw CA's against his... and even then its not going to be really effective unless you have the same person playing both, who knows how to play both.  Probably not going to happen.. but you could get pretty close to ruling out alot of the variables.. the biggest ones is fighting the same mob with the same debuffs and using the same equipment so your stats should be pretty similar.I dont think even Sony has that data.  The data lockeye is talking about takes all fo that out of the equation by not comparing 1 ranger and 1 assassin, but ALL rangers and ALL assassins.  In that comparison it doesnt matter what equipment or level of spells any one ranger has because its averaged across all of them.  Its not perfect data either but it certainly HUGELY reduces the amount any one ranger or assassin can sway the results.</div>

[LoreLady]

Here is my problem with what lockeye has said and gamewide parsings... It doesnt take into account the damage diffrence on the rangers dance for top end raiders. Rangers do double the typiccal auto attack then all other classes because we exploit it to stand out to be our very best. While, what I have put effort into has shown CA's only it does not take into account the ranger dance. Assassins do 20-30% more damage on there CA's, the part I have a problem with is more effort should equal more dps.. But unfortunatly in the ranger case, more effort exploiting the auto attack system ultimatly results in this..Unfortunatly this is a point I cannot put on papper, and even if I try and debate it with a braindead idiot.. I will loose.. What I CAN do though is call out for every ranger, and every other class to post parsings on each raid they go to. And, to let everyone know if they are doing the rangers dance or not.. It makes a diffrence. I will be posting anything I do, with how many people I had on that raid from labs trash to large raids from day to day. Just remember, that most of my raids have 3 groups or less in them.

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div>compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses. Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Say I post a 3 Princes parse that has me and the conjuror doing 1500 dps for 5 minutes, the necro and wizard doing 1200, and the rogues at 1000.  Would you (or anyone) be able to post a parse of 3 Princes with the same classes and a ranger in it?  That would let you compare my parse to yours (by what classes did what) and  then where your rangers are at from there.  Yea, there's a lot of variables, but we're talking high end raiding here.  If you're not in a group where your stats are capped and you're getting buffs that benefit you, then you aren't exactly raiding high end yet.  If mobs aren't being debuffed to their fullest, then you aren't raiding high end yet.  It wouldn't be the perfect comparison, but it's better than the current comparison you guys have, which is nothing at all.<hr></blockquote>you and Khalan should try to get something like that sorted out.  Going to be real tough though to get it similar across both raids, might be able to get it close.. who knows.  I know both of you know your classes well,.I still think though that its got its own set of problems just like lockeyes data, but his is less succeptable to being shifted by the differences like that.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<DIV>Ok lore, I always agree with you but ffs stop calling it the rangers dance. That's what I call normal ranger play, it's not a dance. Stand 4m From the mob and do your stuff. no Dancing Required.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You make it sound like it's this big complicated thing, it really isn't it's how I play every day with my ranger. Every ranger should be doing it, if he's not he needs to Learn 2 Play. It's standard Stuff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think your overhyping this ranger dance nonsense. If rangers don't stand 5m from the mob, then they suck, their is a sweet spot to stand where you can do ranged and melee attacks, no exploiting about it.</DIV>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>LoreLady wrote:Here is my problem with what lockeye has said and gamewide parsings... It doesnt take into account the damage diffrence on the rangers dance for top end raiders. Rangers do double the typiccal auto attack then all other classes because we exploit it to stand out to be our very best. While, what I have put effort into has shown CA's only it does not take into account the ranger dance. Assassins do 20-30% more damage on there CA's, the part I have a problem with is more effort should equal more dps.. But unfortunatly in the ranger case, more effort exploiting the auto attack system ultimatly results in this..Unfortunatly this is a point I cannot put on papper, and even if I try and debate it with a braindead idiot.. I will loose.. What I CAN do though is call out for every ranger, and every other class to post parsings on each raid they go to. And, to let everyone know if they are doing the rangers dance or not.. It makes a diffrence. I will be posting anything I do, with how many people I had on that raid from labs trash to large raids from day to day. Just remember, that most of my raids have 3 groups or less in them.<hr></blockquote>the real problem with lockeyes data is that raiding rangers are the minority, so even if every raiding rangers DPS dropped by 100 DPS lets pretend, it wouldnt shift his averaged numbers much if any at all.  If it raised the same amount, it wouldt go up much either.  His data is across lets pretend 50,000 Rangers.. the DPs of 1000 of them isnt going to move the averages alot either way. There are flaws in both systems i guess.. i'm thinking through both areas as i type alot of this and i see his POV, Rangers as a whole, across all game styles are showing up fine in the data.  Raiding rangers and those more serious grouping rangers see in individual parses this isnt true.. his data also probably included rangers of all levels maybe.. thats gonne be changing it alot too.anyhow.. i dont think the difference is a large as people think.. but i'm a newb assassin and happy with where  I fall in the parse.</div>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses. <BR><BR>Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Say I post a 3 Princes parse that has me and the conjuror doing 1500 dps for 5 minutes, the necro and wizard doing 1200, and the rogues at 1000.  Would you (or anyone) be able to post a parse of 3 Princes with the same classes and a ranger in it?  That would let you compare my parse to yours (by what classes did what) and  then where your rangers are at from there.  Yea, there's a lot of variables, but we're talking high end raiding here.  If you're not in a group where your stats are capped and you're getting buffs that benefit you, then you aren't exactly raiding high end yet.  If mobs aren't being debuffed to their fullest, then you aren't raiding high end yet.  It wouldn't be the perfect comparison, but it's better than the current comparison you guys have, which is nothing at all.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>you and Khalan should try to get something like that sorted out.  Going to be real tough though to get it similar across both raids, might be able to get it close.. who knows.  I know both of you know your classes well,.<BR><BR>I still think though that its got its own set of problems just like lockeyes data, but his is less succeptable to being shifted by the differences like that.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The thing is.</P> <P>if Skratch does 1500Dps, and Ishbu does 1800. And I do 1200 on my parse, but our Summoner still does 1500. You could argue "blah blah blah" parses don't mean anything since numbers are different.</P> <P>Thats not true, all the really matters is that Overall Placements and ratio's are similar. If our Assasins does 20% more DPS than me every time, it doesn't matter if he does 1000, 2500 or 1000000 dps. As long as he's doing more then me on a regular basis along with he rogues and summoners, the actual numbers don't matter. </P> <P>The underlying argument that rangers are underpowered in COMPARISION to other classes still remains, the actual numbers are irrelevant.</P>

[Dirtgirl]

<FONT color=#ffcc66>The only way I can make any sense out of this is that they were looking at Predator class only DPS.<BR>Then I totally agree that Rangers come in 2.2.</FONT>

[Mirander_1]

<div></div>Sorry if I'm intruding, saw this thread on the dev tracker and felt the need to post.  I'm seeing a lot of aggression towards Lockeye in this post, and it doesn't seem entirely justified.  If the server-wide parses that SOE has isn't showing a problem in ranger dps he isn't going to be able to just pop in here and say, "We're fixing you, Yay!!" is he?  Some people are taking what he said personally; he didn't call anyone a liar or a bad player, he simply said that he wasn't seeing the same problem from his end.That said, I'm not saying that the devs shouldn't do anything.  There's obviously some sort of disparity between what the devs are seeing and what the players are seeing, and the devs should take some steps to investigate that.  But getting all [Removed for Content] off at Lockeye isn't going to solve anythingGood luck with it guys,<div></div>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Rangers suck.  I'm sure Lockeye will eventually find out.  I mean everyone else knows.  There is a reason we don't have rangers, I mean trust me, Axkiva didn't <EM>want</EM> to quit playing his.</DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Badd Boy wrote:</P> <P>OMG, please stop with the whining.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry dude, but people expressing their concerns about a real problem involving playability (e.g. DPS) is not whining.  Whining looks something a little more like:</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Badd Boy wrote:</P> <P>And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, pet animations on the zombies. And instead of redoing exact same pets at different levels can they maybe aquire a weapon on 2nd reuse or armor on 3rd reuse? Something to differentiate them a little better?<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Beside having no credibility, your priorities seem a bit... Off.</P> <P><BR></P>

[Jayad]

<DIV>It's very easy to explain.  <EM>Average</EM> for all players is not maximum <STRONG>potential</STRONG>.  All SOE's data is probably is saying is that, on average, rangers do more damage.  It could mean many things - rangers can do more damage more easily, ranger players are better on average, etc.  This reflects what we all know, that rangers in <STRONG>most</STRONG> guild raids do very well, but when you get to <STRONG>high end</STRONG> guilds who play the classes to the max, they fall behind. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they should compare the top .5% of raid parses for rangers versus other classes or something along those lines.  Or there's several options, really. </DIV>

[pera]

Yeah there is no way SoEs parseing tools are correct if they think rangers are at the top,, They are nothing but plain wrong and they just cannot admit they have no idea what they are doing.<div></div>

[Peston]

<div></div>We have every right to take it personally. Some of us have looked at this issue for months. He comes in... and with 2 posts, tells us we are wrong.Let me tell you something about an Average. When you take an average... there are 3 spots... 1st spot - a few that suck 2nd spot - a MAJORITY that are decent3rd spot - a few that are good (<-- these are your hard core/casual raiders)Well your average just gives you data on that 2nd spot. Well that IS NOT the raiding bunch. Your raiding bunch is in the third spot... which are completely thrown out on an average. The majority of crap in the middle out-weighs the few who are hard core raiders.. and therefore their parses are nulled. That is no surprise why your "raw data" does not match player experience and data.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Peston on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:52 PM</span>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>ChaosUndivided wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> MystaSkratch wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sirlutt wrote: <div>compare what ?.. you dont have any rangers remember.  ACT parses are fine for lookin at whats hitting your MT, for who's breaking that mezz or a hundred other things.. for how much overall DPS roughly is being put on a mob.  I've seen a number of times 3 different people's parse look completely different.. they are further or closer to the action, or a number of other things that can skew the parses. Not to mention you cant accurately compare what I parsed in Labs tonight with what your raid parsed in Lyceum the other night, or even labs last night.  Too much changes.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Say I post a 3 Princes parse that has me and the conjuror doing 1500 dps for 5 minutes, the necro and wizard doing 1200, and the rogues at 1000.  Would you (or anyone) be able to post a parse of 3 Princes with the same classes and a ranger in it?  That would let you compare my parse to yours (by what classes did what) and  then where your rangers are at from there.  Yea, there's a lot of variables, but we're talking high end raiding here.  If you're not in a group where your stats are capped and you're getting buffs that benefit you, then you aren't exactly raiding high end yet.  If mobs aren't being debuffed to their fullest, then you aren't raiding high end yet.  It wouldn't be the perfect comparison, but it's better than the current comparison you guys have, which is nothing at all. <hr> </blockquote>you and Khalan should try to get something like that sorted out.  Going to be real tough though to get it similar across both raids, might be able to get it close.. who knows.  I know both of you know your classes well,.I still think though that its got its own set of problems just like lockeyes data, but his is less succeptable to being shifted by the differences like that.</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>The thing is.</p> <p>if Skratch does 1500Dps, and Ishbu does 1800. And I do 1200 on my parse, but our Summoner still does 1500. You could argue "blah blah blah" parses don't mean anything since numbers are different.</p> <p>Thats not true, all the really matters is that Overall Placements and ratio's are similar. If our Assasins does 20% more DPS than me every time, it doesn't matter if he does 1000, 2500 or 1000000 dps. As long as he's doing more then me on a regular basis along with he rogues and summoners, the actual numbers don't matter. </p> <p>The underlying argument that rangers are underpowered in COMPARISION to other classes still remains, the actual numbers are irrelevant.</p><hr></blockquote>now thats something i hadnt thought of.I think though that lockeyes data would point to that just as much if not more than a bunch of random parses though, if that was the true trend across the classes, not just in raiding, but everywhere then his data wouldnt put rangers in the top 1-4 (or average of 2.2).  His data is exactly what you say..its not X class does 123DPS ..  its Rangers are in the top 4 across the board.His data says that Rangers as a whole (not just raiders and i think thats where the gap lies) are not way down the DPS totem, but up near the top with other T1 DPS.Sadly if thats what his data says then I doubt there will be any fixes forthcoming.  He already upped ranger DPS prior based on the same data.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Peston wrote:<div></div>We have every right to take it personally. Some of us have looked at this issue for months. He comes in... and with 2 posts, tells us we are wrong.Let me tell you something about an Average. When you take an average... there are 3 spots... 1st spot - a few that suck 2nd spot - a MAJORITY that are decent3rd spot - a few that are good (<-- these are your hard core/casual raiders)Well your average just gives you data on that 2nd spot. Well that IS NOT the raiding bunch. Your raiding bunch is in the third spot... which are completely thrown out on an average. The majority of crap in the middle out-weighs the few who are hard core raiders.. and therefore their parses are nulled. That is no surprise why your "raw data" does not match player experience and data.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Peston on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:52 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>you get the idea but what it means is that the concerns of the vocal minority (read nerfbat.com for a writeup by blackguard on that) wont be influential in changing the class.  it doesnt mean raiders are thrown out, but rather whether they are up or down isnt going to shift the average much and the average is what they wil use to tweak the class.</div>

[Peston]

but that is where the problem is... in the raiding end..all of the rangers that have brought this to the communities have stressed that this is on an end-game raiding situation... and not the majority of casual players.<div></div>

[premiere]

<P>I am afraid yet again sony is wrong.  My main is a Guardian and on every raid I have ever attended rangers are not showing up number 1.  It is normally Conjurors/necros on top then warlock/wiz monk/bruiser Rangers It all varies though at times a berserker may peak up to the top 4 and at other times.  Nonetheless I played a ranger in eq1 and I just thought I would throw in my two sense and help prove this Dev wrong.  </P>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>premiere wrote:<div></div> <p>I am afraid yet again sony is wrong.  My main is a Guardian and on every raid I have ever attended rangers are not showing up number 1.  It is normally Conjurors/necros on top then warlock/wiz monk/bruiser Rangers It all varies though at times a berserker may peak up to the top 4 and at other times.  Nonetheless I played a ranger in eq1 and I just thought I would throw in my two sense and help prove this Dev wrong.  </p><hr></blockquote>Sony hasnt said that rangers show up #1 on raid parses... or that they will show up in the top 4 in a raid.They said over all on average across ALL the data Rangers are showing up where they expect them too.Thats it, thats all, nothing about raiding or where they show up on the parse of a raid.  They are on average in the 2.2 spot across all data.There might well be a problem with raiding rangers, some say yes, some say no.. but they wont ballance an entire class based on raiding, raiders are a small % of the total ranger population.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Peston wrote:but that is where the problem is... in the raiding end..all of the rangers that have brought this to the communities have stressed that this is on an end-game raiding situation... and not the majority of casual players.<div></div><hr></blockquote>i personally dont see it as a huge gap, yet.. but I have no doubt some people do see this gap and in some situations in some raids it is aparent.  But ballancing an entire class based on how 5% of the players who play the class see it isnt how they work.  If they give rangers a 20% damage boost then we are back to pre LU21 and it'll be unballanced all over again.i dont know what the solution is, but I cant help but think its related to the drastic heavy handed ill thought out fix to procs that they used.  simply making it so rangers offensive stance didnt proc poisons, and having a heirachy for the procs to check in and stop when one hits would have cut ranger DPs by just enough i think to ballance it out.  i'm off to bed.. i am sorry that this was the answer.</div>

[Peston]

<div></div>nevermind <span>:smileyhappy:</span><p>Message Edited by Peston on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 PM</span>

[USAFJeeper]

<P>After [Removed for Content] and moaning about this all night (mainly to my dog and boy is he confused) I am just gonna have to accept the decsion and decide what alt to level up.  I am thinking Brigand.</P> <P>Never deleted or betrayed, just resting quietly in a nice room somewhere.</P>

[Badd Boy]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gareorn wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Badd Boy wrote:</p> <p>OMG, please stop with the whining.</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Sorry dude, but people expressing their concerns about a real problem involving playability (e.g. DPS) is not whining.  Whining looks something a little more like:</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>Badd Boy wrote:</p> <p>And FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, pet animations on the zombies. And instead of redoing exact same pets at different levels can they maybe aquire a weapon on 2nd reuse or armor on 3rd reuse? Something to differentiate them a little better?</p> <p></p> <hr> <p>Beside having no credibility, your priorities seem a bit... Off.</p> <p></p><hr></blockquote>Before you start pulling quotes from August of '05 from a post titled <b><i>what would you like to see in desert of flames, </i></b>check with your parents and make sure you are allowed to post. You spent so much time to dig back a year ago and try to "ruin my credibilty". That is almost laughable.  Now, before I try to pick through this post and post all the whines perhaps you should stand back and decide if you want to go down this path. This thread needs to be turned into a thread with valid proof of these claims or be locked. It can not be a "he said, she said" kind of thing. As far as seeing all the posts here and basing it as the whole ranger database remember, most users do not post here.</div>

[rcknchr]

<DIV>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then why di you retire your Ranger until the betrayal quest came out, then bring him out of retirement and betray to an Assassin if we are fine.</DIV>

[Peston]

<div></div>I'm gonna say this one more time...Lockeye's average is not accurate in showing us where Rangers stand in raids... because lets face it.. a vast majority do not raid regularly.I'd like to see a compilation of the Rangers who raid 4 or more days a week... call that Raw Data and tell me we don't have a problem...<div></div><p>Message Edited by Peston on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 PM</span>

[wullailhuit]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>CrazedMutha wrote:<div></div>Lockeye your guild make-up might be a bit different to other guilds. In our guild we have a good balance of DPS classes. Parses go something like this..Assasin -> Assasin -> Conjuror/Necro -> Swashbuckler -> Ranger -> Ranger -> (...Bruiser/Zerker/Sorcerer follows)Now of course gear and spell quality come to play especially as Fabled DW for Assassins are VERY easy to come by compared to Fabled Bows, but very very rarely does the Ranger come top of our DPS parses.<div></div><p>Message Edited by CrazedMutha on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:12 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I dont know what your rangers are doing , I'm in a guild that raids , we are mostly mastered up so spell results are comparable..In raids 90-99% of the time it's the rangers in the guild that are top of the DPS parse..</div>

[jjlo69]

<P>well heres a sample parse of my death toll raid as a 70 ranger and is shows me as number 10 on the dps list head of me is the following 1. wizard 2. brigand, 3. swahsy, 4. assian 5. brusier 6.guard(main tank), 7 and 8 azre monks 9 is a conjurer then Me 70 ranger at number 10. im sry but LOCKEYE somthing is def wrong and this pic of my parser doesnt lie. and im decent equiped and all adept 3/ mastered with 34 aa's.</P> <P><IMG src="http://imageigloo.com/images/8612parsea.JPG"></P> <P>Loomingelephant</P>

[MystaSkrat]

Okay, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=14894#M14894http://" target=_blank>here</A> is a full zone parse for HoS from a couple weeks ago that Calaglin already had posted.  There's no rangers there, but the top 6 classes are: Assassin (me), Assassin, Wizard, Necro, Conjuror, Illusionist.  Now, at least maybe someone can come here with a comparable HoS parse with a ranger on it, and you can at least have some base assumptions for high end raiding.  Anyway, I'm going to bed, so good luck with this!  I'm sure there will be 15 pages when I wake up lol

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>rcknchr74 wrote:<div>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.</div> <div> </div> <div>Then why di you retire your Ranger until the betrayal quest came out, then bring him out of retirement and betray to an Assassin if we are fine.</div><hr></blockquote>Because captain obvious the changes to procs killed the fun factor for me.   In my case it was a particular animation that occured when we proc'd alot that led me to have the last name "Heavy'Artillery".  I betrayed because the new guild I joined needed an assassin and i was tired of tanking on my guard.  It had EVERYTHING to do with the fact that an assassin transfers hate, and little to do with the DPS.  Both are pretty similar in my book depending on the situation and gear.  We got a new MT, i didnt have to MT and we needed an assassin, thats it in a nutshell.  We already had 4 rangers including me.  One of the others chose to level his necro alt because we needed that too.</div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:I actually had a zone-wide parse of Lab and closed it about 2 minutes before I looked at this post, but our assassins were away tonight.  I might be able to come up with something after the weekend.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So, just open ACT again and parse it again.  It's fairly simple.<hr></blockquote>Forgot about that functionality on ACT, hadn't used it in a while.Here is the top of the list from tonight in Lab:Allies: (01:05:32) 37924966 | 9,645.21 [Morlander-Fusion-24648]Necro 4288554 | 1,090.68                     Ranger (me) 3866652 | 983.38               Brigand 3750378 | 953.81                        Monk 3477652 | 884.45                      <font color="#6633cc"></font>Berserker 3161934 | 804.15                        <font color="#6633cc"></font>Wizard 2844227 | 723.35                    <font color="#6633cc"></font>Conjuror 2532227 | 644.00                       <font color="#6633cc"></font>Wizard 2143219 | 545.07                         Monk 2048090 | 520.88                                <font color="#6633cc"></font>Dirge 1931746 | 491.29                            No assassins in this one, kind of an off night as far as raid setup, but you get the ideaLast Monday in Deathtoll:Allies: (01:11:26) 50166630 | 11,704.77 [Darkkeyes-Decapitate-22404]Assassin 4588303 | 1,070.53               Assassin 4126188 | 962.71                    Ranger (me) 4054075 | 945.89              Brigand 3968786 | 925.99                    <font color="#6633cc"></font>Necro 3821868 | 891.71                      <font color="#6633cc"></font>Monk 3745181 | 873.82                     <font color="#6633cc"></font> Swash 3627037 | 846.25                        Bruiser 3458825 | 807.01                        <font color="#6633cc"></font> Berserker 3276035 | 764.36                        Conjuror 2687922 | 627.14                         Here is a good example of a raid with Malignx slacking off <span><span>:smileytongue:BTW, didn't have any sorcerers in there.</span></span>And one from Lyceum:Allies: (57:59) 49164648 | 14,131.83 [Morlander-Fusion-27750]Necro 5154936 | 1,481.73                      Assassin 4073879 | 1,170.99                <font color="#6633cc"></font>Ranger (me) 3966773 | 1,140.21              Warlock 3703935 | 1,064.66                    <font color="#6633cc"></font>Wizard 3549338 | 1,020.22                    Brigand 3530682 | 1,014.86                     Bruiser 3074482 | 883.73                            <font color="#6633cc"></font>Conjuror 3060456 | 879.69                           <font color="#6633cc"></font>Monk 2934558 | 843.51                          <font color="#6633cc"></font>Warlock 2716601 | 780.86                               <font color="#6633cc"></font>This is probably representative of my general impression; necro pwning us, assassin followed by me with sorcerers and rogues right behind.Edited to remove names</div><p>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 AM</span>

[Katsugen]

<P>I think the real problem is rangers don't scale as over all raid dps increases. I for a long time shared the top of the parse, until we cracked down on slackers and saw a HUGE jump in our raid dps. That over all bump killed me. I'm now lucky if I'm landing 4th on the parse. I'm glad our guild is kicking more butt, but I'm finally seeing what I have always suspected. Our dps does not scale to the high end. I'm fully fabled, (minus 1 master) fully mastered, and I have a bazkul. I cap str and I'm gettling close to 400int now, in a group w/ 100% haste and 50% dps. It doesn't matter, when all the other classes are playing hard, my dps looks like crapp. When they used to slack, my dps look significantly higher. </P> <P>This tells me we are having trouble scaling. My play style hasn't changed one bit, my rotations are the same, but when the raid isn't sandbagging it, my dps is actually lower. The closer our raids gets to 20k dps the further I slide on the parse. This is what I suspect the high end raid guild are referring to. This is why disso has no ranger, and why others aren't accepting ranger apps. Heck even we aren't taking rangers. </P> <P>Lockeye if you feel rangers are in the right spot, send me a PM i'll get you my info and you can log on one raid night and prove me wrong. I got 5p says you'll be singing a new tune.</P> <P> </P> <P>on a side note....<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV>Rangers suck.  I'm sure Lockeye will eventually find out.  I mean everyone else knows.  There is a reason we don't have rangers, I mean trust me, Axkiva didn't <EM>want</EM> to quit playing his.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gaige, You came from a guild that had prolly the top end ranger on the server. He and I have had many conversations about dps and where we land on the parses. Until recently I haven't disagreed much with where we were landing on the parse. You've seen his dps, would you argue that Lockeye is wrong?

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div>Okay, <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=14894#M14894http://" target="_blank">here</a> is a full zone parse for HoS from a couple weeks ago that Calaglin already had posted.  There's no rangers there, but the top 6 classes are: Assassin (me), Assassin, Wizard, Necro, Conjuror, Illusionist.  Now, at least maybe someone can come here with a comparable HoS parse with a ranger on it, and you can at least have some base assumptions for high end raiding.  Anyway, I'm going to bed, so good luck with this!  I'm sure there will be 15 pages when I wake up lol<hr></blockquote>I dont have a HoS parse.. but i have alot of Lyceum, DT and Labs that look the same (even similar numbers) but our top are between 2 Conj, 2 Wizards, 2 Assassins and 2 Rangers.  all between 1100-1400 DPS.  Generally our one Ranger is on top (Skyia) but alot of times its a toss up.. if i go all out i can sometimes get on top, same goes for any of us.  i am out too...  this thread should be a hoot tomorrow.</div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:I actually had a zone-wide parse of Lab and closed it about 2 minutes before I looked at this post, but our assassins were away tonight.  I might be able to come up with something after the weekend.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So, just open ACT again and parse it again.  It's fairly simple.<hr></blockquote>Forgot about that functionality on ACT, hadn't used it in a while.Here is the top of the list from tonight in Lab:Allies: (01:05:32) 37924966 | 9,645.21 [Morlander-Fusion-24648]Malignx 4288554 | 1,090.68                     <font color="#6633ff">Necromancer</font>Ranvarenaya 3866652 | 983.38               <font color="#6633cc">Ranger (me)</font>Geradin 3750378 | 953.81                        <font color="#6633cc">Brigand</font>Taucher 3477652 | 884.45                        <font color="#6633cc">Monk</font>Khalad 3161934 | 804.15                          <font color="#6633cc">Berserker</font>Morlander 2844227 | 723.35                     <font color="#6633cc">Wizard</font>Eyiania 2532227 | 644.00                          <font color="#6633cc">Conjuror</font>Gannon 2143219 | 545.07                         <font color="#6633cc">Wizard</font>Ejixi 2048090 | 520.88                                <font color="#6633cc">Monk</font>Fopho 1931746 | 491.29                            <font color="#6633cc">Noob that gets pwned by Rangers in duels</font>No assassins in this one, kind of an off night as far as raid setup, but you get the ideaLast Monday in Deathtoll:Allies: (01:11:26) 50166630 | 11,704.77 [Darkkeyes-Decapitate-22404]Darkkeyes 4588303 | 1,070.53               <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Tash 4126188 | 962.71                           <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Ranvarenaya 4054075 | 945.89              <font color="#6633cc">Ranger (me)</font>Geradin 3968786 | 925.99                       <font color="#6633cc">Brigand</font>Malignx 3821868 | 891.71                        <font color="#6633cc">Necro</font>Taucher 3745181 | 873.82                      <font color="#6633cc">Monk</font> Laldien 3627037 | 846.25                        <font color="#6633cc">Swashbuckler with an unhealthy love for Martin Lawrence</font>Effrum 3458825 | 807.01                         <font color="#6633cc">Bruiser</font> Khalad 3276035 | 764.36                         <font color="#6633cc">Berserker</font>Eyiania 2687922 | 627.14                         <font color="#6633cc">Conjuror</font>Here is a good example of a raid with Malignx slacking off <span><span>:smileytongue:BTW, didn't have any sorcerers in there.</span></span>And one from Lyceum:Allies: (57:59) 49164648 | 14,131.83 [Morlander-Fusion-27750]Malignx 5154936 | 1,481.73                      <font color="#6633cc">Necromancer</font>Darkkeyes 4073879 | 1,170.99                  <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Ranvarenaya 3966773 | 1,140.21              <font color="#6633cc">Ranger (me)</font>Nebbus 3703935 | 1,064.66                       <font color="#6633cc">Warlock</font>Morlander 3549338 | 1,020.22                    <font color="#6633cc">Wizard</font>Geradin 3530682 | 1,014.86                       <font color="#6633cc">Brigand</font> Effrum 3074482 | 883.73                            <font color="#6633cc">Bruiser</font>Eyiania 3060456 | 879.69                            <font color="#6633cc">Conjuror</font>Taucher 2934558 | 843.51                          <font color="#6633cc">Monk</font>Laina 2716601 | 780.86                               <font color="#6633cc">Warlock</font>This is probably representative of my general impression; necro pwning us, assassin followed by me with sorcerers and rogues right behind.</div><hr></blockquote>and thats alot like our parses... i dont see the uber 2000 DPS stuff LoreLady speaks of .. and i dont see the Rangers at 1200 DPS while the other DPS classes are 1800+I generally see similar to what you post.. 2 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], 2 RNG, 2 Conj, 2 Wiz all vying for top honors .. </div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> rcknchr74 wrote:<BR> <DIV>And thats what I have been saying, Sony has ALOT more Data than any I have seen posted on the forums here.. across ALL kinds of situations.  When the data did show a discrepancy, lockeye came in and told Rangers that and increased some of their melee CA's.  The same data now shows, across the board on average that rangers are in the top average on DPS.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then why di you retire your Ranger until the betrayal quest came out, then bring him out of retirement and betray to an Assassin if we are fine.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>In fact, we don't know what data SoE has, and you are merely speculating without any reasonable foundation of evidence.  For all we know, SoE's data is just a dirty average of individual ranger dps by all rangers on a server, measured against the dps of all other classes on that server.</P> <P>But since we are speculating, let me give you my SWAG: </P> <P>In my experience, people who play rangers are generally more parse oriented, and technical gamers, than players of many other classes.  I've found that in general, most pickup group rangers are much better than the average player of another dps class.  Usually rangers are aware of their damage, and even poorly equipped ones seem to work hard to maximize dps.  I've never seen a ranger in a pickup group only use auto attack.  To the contrary, I've seen more than one conjuror in pickup groups using a tank pet when we had a tank in the group.  I've seen every other scout class just doing autoattack and not casting cas and spells.  And I've seen a lot of fighters using one handers and sheilds when someone else is tanking.  These are just some basic examples of situations where the vast majority of EQ2 players suck.  My theory is that most rangers suck less than most other players, on average.  So my bottom line belief is that if a ranger is parsing highest in a group or at a raid, the rest of that group or raid sucks.</P> <P>If my theory is correct, that means rangers will produce higher dps than every other class named by Lockeye.  But it is far from objective to claim that either my theory or his claim is scientifically accurate or even meaningful.  What would be far more meaningful is data taken from the top guilds world wide.  Most players in top guilds do not suck, and try their hardest to maximize dps because that is what their very pride and identity is based on.  So this data would be reliable and meaningful, unlike a simple average of the dps of everyone on a server based on class, and without consideration given to levels, effort, and skill. </P>

[USAFJeeper]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Because captain obvious the changes to procs killed the fun factor for me.   In my case it was a particular animation that occured when we proc'd alot that led me to have the last name "Heavy'Artillery".  I betrayed because the new guild I joined needed an assassin and i was tired of tanking on my guard.  It had EVERYTHING to do with the fact that an assassin transfers hate, and little to do with the DPS.  Both are pretty similar in my book depending on the situation and gear.  We got a new MT, i didnt have to MT and we needed an assassin, thats it in a nutshell.  We already had 4 rangers including me.  One of the others chose to level his necro alt because we needed that too.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So what your saying is that the rangers didn't fill the DPS/Utility bill so you had to level up another character or betray?  Gee that sounds like what we are saying.<BR>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>So.... YOUR raw data is better than everyone else's raw data? MY raw spell data shows that Assassin CAs do more damage than Ranger CAs over time.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>07-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 PM</span>

[griffit]

I was a Ranger.Betrayed a couple days ago.       The difference in dps between Assassin and Ranger in solo play is minimal.     However get into a group or raid and my Assassin (same level, same gear, same group)  goes from a widely fluctuating 2-4th place on parse (as a ranger)  to a steady and solid first place.   The difference in DPS was immediately noticeable.      A necro who had consistently out dps'ed my Ranger was <u>easily</u> getting beaten by my Assassin.Just from first hand experience of making the jump between the two classes,  I have to say that Lockeye is either completely running on bad information or else just making up random statements to try and calm customers.<div></div>

[USAFJeeper]

<DIV>Labs run merge.  I am the only ranger on the raid as usual.  Names removed to protect the innocent.  My only fear is that posting these leads to "changes" to other classes.  I was also experimenting this night, I respecced to AGI and INT and was testing combos, I think I am actually a little higher than this shows.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Caveats, I removed parses where I died early on to an aggro issue, all my fault <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  This is a small casual raiding guild, we raid 3-4 nights a week, kill Tarinax weekly, do not race to contested mobs.  We are working on  the latest Ad pack and just tried Venekor the first time the other night (mid week raid so we usually wrap up early before trying him).  We are not an elite uber raiding force but we get the job done and have fun doing it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Allies: (53:34) 34204807 | 10642.44 [Assassin-Decapitate-23835]<BR>Assassin          3511831 | 1092.67<BR>Swashbuckler  3328193 | 1035.53<BR>Assassin          3269537 | 1017.28<BR>Conjurer           3100833 | 964.79<BR>Ranger             2441236 | 759.56<BR>Wizard             1995903 | 621.00<BR>Bruiser             1899887 | 591.13<BR>Bruiser             1778742 | 553.44<BR>Brigand            1684973 | 524.26<BR></DIV>

[Geoff]

<P>sorry guys, but i played with a ranger (one of the best in game imho), with my old raid toon Warlock (my current main is a necro on pvp, but i havent raided yet).  This ranger was consistently #1 on almost every raid, occasionally #2 behind a conjuror.  We had another ranger, and he was usually 6 or 7.  What does that tell me?  One, that the person playing the class has alot to do with it.  No one like to hear this, because if they're [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing and moaning they have to defend this or it mean that perhaps they're not maximizing their class...oh no, can't admit we don't know everything.... </P> <P>Anyway, we either had the worlds best ranger, or 23 nubs...and seeing as how we beat pretty much every T7 zone (I say pretty much because I left to PvP before we did deathtoll.).  I do know that the #1 ranger spent a ton of money on top end arrows and poison, so if you want to make the argument it was unfair he had to spend so much money to be #1, I'll buy that argument.  What I've never seen is a wizard parsing that high.  I can't believe there are rangers parsing below a wizzy.  I, personally, think they are the most broken T1 dps class out there.  Course, this is a ranger forum, and you're all likely to be slanted in the same direction.  Just like the warlock forums are, just like the summoner forums are, just like the assasin forums are...every one thinks they're class is underpowered from where it should be...sorry for intruding, wqas reading dev tracker posts, and came across this one.  </P>

[Sokolov]

For my raids, it's always, always: Wizard (Illu) > Conjuror (Allestair) After that, it can be Necro, Brigand, Swashy etc. Then the Rangers and Brawlers follow typically. I certainly do concede that my Wizard and Conj are DPS-[Removed for Content] and do everything they can to maximize their DPS =P At the end of the day tho, seems to me most Rangers are prideful (in the sense they wouldn't be slacking) and the ones posting on here are from high end raid guilds (so gear should be equalized). <div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Last Monday in Deathtoll:<BR><BR>Allies: (01:11:26) 50166630 | 11,704.77 [Darkkeyes-Decapitate-22404]<BR>Darkkeyes 4588303 | 1,070.53               <FONT color=#6633cc>Assassin</FONT><BR>Tash 4126188 | 962.71                           <FONT color=#6633cc>Assassin</FONT><BR>Ranvarenaya 4054075 | 945.89              <FONT color=#6633cc>Ranger (me)</FONT><BR>Geradin 3968786 | 925.99                       <FONT color=#6633cc>Brigand</FONT><BR>Malignx 3821868 | 891.71                        <FONT color=#6633cc>Necro</FONT><BR>Taucher 3745181 | 873.82                      <FONT color=#6633cc>Monk</FONT> <BR>Laldien 3627037 | 846.25                        <FONT color=#6633cc>Swashbuckler with an unhealthy love for Martin Lawrence</FONT><BR>Effrum 3458825 | 807.01                         <FONT color=#6633cc>Bruiser</FONT> <BR>Khalad 3276035 | 764.36                         <FONT color=#6633cc>Berserker</FONT><BR>Eyiania 2687922 | 627.14                         <FONT color=#6633cc>Conjuror</FONT><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is our parse from Deathtoll last Monday (I removed the healers)  I'm the assassin.</P> <P>(52:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 40484361 | 12,860.34 <BR>Assassin 4020335 | 1,277.11<BR>Wizard 3607621 | 1,146.00<BR>Brig1 3347176 | 1,063.27<BR>Necro 3073875 | 976.45<BR>Conjuror 3068996 | 974.90<BR>Brig2 2782510 | 883.90<BR>Zerker 2761651 | 877.27<BR>Guardian 2234510 | 709.82<BR>Illusionist 2199377 | 698.66<BR>Warlock 2150585 | 683.16<BR>Troub 2149543 | 682.83</P> <P> </P> <P>lol it also looks like we skip a lot of those blobs and stuff that you guys don't :smileytongue:</P>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirlutt wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> Okay, <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=14894#M14894http://" target=_blank>here</A> is a full zone parse for HoS from a couple weeks ago that Calaglin already had posted.  There's no rangers there, but the top 6 classes are: Assassin (me), Assassin, Wizard, Necro, Conjuror, Illusionist.  Now, at least maybe someone can come here with a comparable HoS parse with a ranger on it, and you can at least have some base assumptions for high end raiding.  Anyway, I'm going to bed, so good luck with this!  I'm sure there will be 15 pages when I wake up lol<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont have a HoS parse.. but i have alot of Lyceum, DT and Labs that look the same (even similar numbers) but our top are between 2 Conj, 2 Wizards, 2 Assassins and 2 Rangers.  all between 1100-1400 DPS.  Generally our one Ranger is on top (Skyia) but alot of times its a toss up.. if i go all out i can sometimes get on top, same goes for any of us. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>My point was to link or post the parses, not talk about them.<BR>

[TaleraRis]

If Lockeye is using just the raw numbers of DPS on the whole, not divided by level or playstyle, then that data is flawed. You can't compare, say, my DPS at 54 as a soloer to a 70 raiding ranger. You can't even compare my DPS to a level 54 raiding ranger. There is a vast difference in gear focus, availability of upgrades, poison usage, etc. Using someone like my numbers to drag his down is going to give an inaccurate total.  Same as comparing classes overall rather than by level and playstyle. Just like it wasn't fair for the soloist to be judged by what groups could do, ie the control changes, it isn't accurate or fair to judge the raiding ranger by what solo and group rangers can do, ignore the data they present, and call them okay. <div></div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR> <DIV>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <U>none</U> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Lockeye on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:28 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>as a wizard with equal buffs I can still out dps the ranger by a decent margin,</P> <P>add in some hate reduction and spell procs and i can double and nearly tripple his dps.  He's been playing his ranger as long as I have been playing my wizard and knows what the hell he's doing.</P> <P>There is just no way he can come close to me in dps, no matter what when I am fully raid buffed.  we are talking about me doing 2600 and him chugging along at 1200 at best.  </P> <P>I find your logs and post to be utterly rediculous.</P>

[Dojoc]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye schrieb:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <font color="#ff0000"><u>none</u></font> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>one wordlol</div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <div>Rangers suck.  I'm sure Lockeye will eventually find out.  I mean everyone else knows.  There is a reason we don't have rangers, I mean trust me, Axkiva didn't <em>want</em> to quit playing his.</div><hr></blockquote>I'm a Ranger, and I don't suck.</div>

[Goozman]

<DIV>For those saying Lockeye "should follow around a raiding guild" to see how it really goes... he does. He already said what he sees when he raids; the ranger in the top 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know people don't want to imagine it, but a whole lot of players just haven't quite figured "it" out yet; and when people who have try to explain it, they just argue and don't want to believe they are doing anything wrong. 750 total raid dps for a ranger is pretty bad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like Badd said, our guild doesn't have an assassin currently (with the exception of the up-and-coming one), we generally parse around 13000-15000 as a whole, and Wizard/Warlock/Necro/Ranger/Conjuror are the top dogs; with an occasional 1200ish dps howdyado from the Berserker. Maybe our ranger found some way to hack code and put some god mode buff on himself, but every day we see our ranger doing very non-underpowered dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe you should find the hundreds of rangers who are pushing global parses up and tell them to stop for a while so that Rangers will look bad.</DIV>

[Sokolov]

While it is true that some Rangers parse higher, etc. the important thing to realize that damage potential appears to be higher for Summoners, Sorcerers, Rouges and Assassins. <div></div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Goozman wrote: <div> Maybe you should find the hundreds of rangers who are pushing global parses up and tell them to stop for a while so that Rangers will look bad.</div><hr></blockquote>Haha, earlier tonight I told my guild in TS that I was gonna start going auto-attack only and rack up a bunch of 500 dps parses and send them via e-mail to Lockeye.</div>

[Ishbu]

<P>Ok let me be of service here.</P> <P>Lockeye, take ANY ranger from ANY server and put them in my raid.  I will set them up with a group that gives them some buffs/procs, a standard dps group, and I will even lean it on the side of an above average dps group catered to the ranger.</P> <P>I will let someone else do the dkp/looting for this raid.</P> <P>You pick any KoS instance raid zone.  I will be in a group by myself.  If this ranger can zone wide parse out dps me, I will quit the game, never post again, and never return to the game in any form.  If I out dps the ranger, you admit rangers are messed up and deserve an upgrade.</P> <P>I am 100% positive that I will out dps the ranger, and by a considerable margin.  Quite frankly, there is absolutely no way in hell I can lose if I try.  It is going to result in me doing more dps because rangers are not good enough, period.</P> <P>So how about it?  What is there to lose?  At worst nobody has to ever hear from me again, and at best rangers get the fix they need/deserve.</P>

[PIexor]

<P>Some more random parses of a week of raiding in KoS from a guild that beat all the mobs in KoS(NB excluded ofcourse) but still has to kill the Turgon and Matron, but we are getting there <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>DT<BR>Allies: (01:12:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 43953008 | 10,085.59<BR>Assassin 3544095 | 813.24<BR>Assassin 3416191 | 783.89<BR>Assassin 3288892 | 754.68<BR>Berserker 3004055 | 689.32<BR>Wizard 2892028 | 663.61<BR>Necromancer 2779579 | 637.81<BR>Swashbuckler 2742921 | 629.40<BR>Ranger 2472343 | 567.31<BR>Bruiser 2453357 | 562.95<BR>Conjuror 2427974 | 557.13<BR>Conjuror 2331360 | 534.96<BR>Berserker 2025368 | 464.75<BR>Brigand 1560459 | 358.07<BR>Dirge 1472917 | 337.98<BR>Illusionist 1375635 | 315.66<BR>Dirge 1046721 | 240.18</P> <P><BR>Labs<BR>Allies: (01:04:04) 35543545 | 9,246.50<BR>Assassin 3260388 | 848.18<BR>Assassin 3050184 | 793.49<BR>Wizard 2771799 | 721.07<BR>Wizard 2708319 | 704.56<BR>Ranger 2632392 | 684.81<BR>Brigand 2318648 | 603.19<BR>Bruiser 2250839 | 585.55<BR>Berserker 1763408 | 458.74<BR>Dirge 1745461 | 454.07<BR>Guardian 1723632 | 448.40<BR>Monk 1655885 | 430.77<BR>Illusionist 1380945 | 359.25<BR>Brigand 1254966 | 326.47</P> <P>lyceum<BR>Allies: (55:01) 47374673 | 14,351.61<BR>Wizard 3705224 | 1,122.46<BR>Wizard 3115074 | 943.68<BR>Assassin 3061236 | 927.37<BR>Berserker 3040771 | 921.17<BR>Conjuror 2895266 | 877.09<BR>Conjuror 2809466 | 851.10<BR>Warlock 2750213 | 833.15<BR>Ranger 2596843 | 786.68<BR>Ranger 2578159 | 781.02<BR>Bruiser 2402260 | 727.74<BR>Brigand 2368721 | 717.58<BR>Monk 1933795 | 585.82<BR>Berserker 1784229 | 540.51<BR>Dirge 1670014 | 505.91<BR>Guardian 1562709 | 473.40<BR>Brigand 1558024 | 471.99<BR>Troubadour 985334 | 298.50</P> <P>Halls of seeing<BR>Allies: (01:19:05) 56580085 | 11,924.15<BR>Wizard 5562340 | 1,172.25<BR>Assassin 4796228 | 1,010.80<BR>Wizard 4449178 | 937.66<BR>Warlock 3675468 | 774.60<BR>Conjuror 3515180 | 740.82<BR>Conjuror 3414730 | 719.65<BR>Swashbuckler 3367535 | 709.70<BR>Brigand 2950607 | 621.84<BR>Brigand 2793976 | 588.83<BR>Illusionist 2622935 | 552.78<BR>Guardian 2436805 | 513.55<BR>Berserker 2331908 | 491.45<BR>Bruiser 2270850 | 478.58<BR>Berserker 2218832 | 467.61<BR>Dirge 2107600 | 444.17<BR>Troubadour 1483219 | 312.59</P> <P>In our guild Wizards and Assassins must fear the nerfbat the most it seems :smileytongue:</P> <P> </P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MaxXNosaj wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have to agree.  On our raids we generally have a necro, a conjie, a wizard, 2 warlocks, 2 rangers, a swash (myself), and 1 or 2 brigands.  The specific order of who's on top on dps is never exactly the same, obviously, but generally number 1 was either the wizard or brigand #1 who /specifically/ set herself up to maximize dps--that includes gear, poisons, AA's, etc., so don't take that as meaning that brigands need to be nerfed.  Following those two was generally the necro/rangers/conjie, followed by the swash and brigand #2, followed by whoever else was on the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AGAIN, that's just generally how our dps falls on raids, which is entirely in line with what all of the devs have been trying to tell you guys.  I'm not going to try to list any hard numbers because with context numbers are meaningless, and it's the context that many of you who are crying for a fix are failing to provide.  What zone were you in, and what mob or set of mobs were you fighting?  What was the group makeup, not only for you, but for every other person in your parse?  Information like this is critical in determining whether or not a class is actually broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a single mob, a brigand will almost always out-dps me; vice versa, if we get a group of 'trash' mobs in a raid zone, I can pop off my haste/dps buffs, Inspiration, AE's, and Hurricane, and I'm almost guaranteed to out-dps the brigand.  DPS is never stable, never will be.  There's too many variables, and without taking everything into consideration, you simply cannot accurately claim X class is broken.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is why zone-wide parses exist.  They make it so that every different kind of encounter is counted.  From that single mob encounter, to that group of 6.

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> Gaige, You came from a guild that had prolly the top end ranger on the server. He and I have had many conversations about dps and where we land on the parses. Until recently I haven't disagreed much with where we were landing on the parse. You've seen his dps, would you argue that Lockeye is wrong?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Layla is a very good ranger that parsed well in Amend.  However, I seriously doubt he could break the top 6 in Disso even with Bazkul.<BR></DIV>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Before you start pulling quotes from August of '05 from a post titled <B><I>what would you like to see in desert of flames, </I></B>check with your parents and make sure you are allowed to post. You spent so much time to dig back a year ago and try to "ruin my credibilty". That is almost laughable.  Now, before I try to pick through this post and post all the whines perhaps you should stand back and decide if you want to go down this path.<BR><BR>This thread needs to be turned into a thread with valid proof of these claims or be locked. It can not be a "he said, she said" kind of thing. As far as seeing all the posts here and basing it as the whole ranger database remember, most users do not post here.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't spend "so much time," I spent about a minute and a half.  I was just pointing out that you are nothing more than a whinny little product of vaginal infection who came here to gloat.  I<EM>'</EM>m not trying to ruin your creditbility, I stated the fact that you have no creditibility.  Wipe your nose, pick up your nap mat, and go home.<BR>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> Gaige, You came from a guild that had prolly the top end ranger on the server. He and I have had many conversations about dps and where we land on the parses. Until recently I haven't disagreed much with where we were landing on the parse. You've seen his dps, would you argue that Lockeye is wrong?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Layla is a very good ranger that parsed well in Amend.  However, I seriously doubt he could break the top 6 in Disso even with Bazkul.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nobody ever understands or believes the damage until they behold it for the first time.<BR>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> arkkon wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div>If you want to observe a rangers average dps then observe a top ww guilds raids and check their rangers dps. </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>I would gladly post parses of our rangers, like I post parses of myself, except my guild got rid of all our rangers when we realized they couldn't do the dps of a rogue or summoner, and didn't have the utility either.  I'm not sure if I'm in a top guild or not though...<hr></blockquote>I imagine Layla parses higher than almost all of your DPS people on a very regular basis.  He's always top 3 on our raids, and our top 3 are almost always 1500 - 2k</div>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Gaige wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> Katsugen wrote: <div></div>Gaige, You came from a guild that had prolly the top end ranger on the server. He and I have had many conversations about dps and where we land on the parses. Until recently I haven't disagreed much with where we were landing on the parse. You've seen his dps, would you argue that Lockeye is wrong? <hr> </blockquote>Layla is a very good ranger that parsed well in Amend.  However, I seriously doubt he could break the top 6 in Disso even with Bazkul.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Nobody ever understands or believes the damage until they behold it for the first time.<hr></blockquote>I've actually seen your parses and would love to see more, honestly.  If 1500 - 2k wouldn't land him top 5 on every single target fight, I'd be shocked. </div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BR>I imagine Layla parses higher than almost all of your DPS people on a very regular basis.  He's always top 3 on our raids, and our top 3 are almost always 1500 - 2k<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I imagine not. /shrug

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR>I imagine Layla parses higher than almost all of your DPS people on a very regular basis.  He's always top 3 on our raids, and our top 3 are almost always 1500 - 2k <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Having spent time in both guilds and seeing players from both parse, and the time in which zones are cleared and mobs die - I would say you are wrong.<BR>

[Pins]

<DIV>Crac, be a man, post the parses that show 1.5-2k dps.  Don't just say 1.5-2k.  Show the exact parses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exaggerating the figures does nothing to help the obvious ranger problem, it only hurts it.</DIV>

[Katsugen]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR>I imagine Layla parses higher than almost all of your DPS people on a very regular basis.  He's always top 3 on our raids, and our top 3 are almost always 1500 - 2k <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Having spent time in both guilds and seeing players from both parse, and the time in which zones are cleared and mobs die - I would say you are wrong.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is actually exactly what I was getting at. I sat at the top of our parses for a while, and after alot of data collecting we recently let everyone see exactly how much they were slacking off. After that every raid since has been each person busting their butts. Now honestly, I kinda expected my DPS to stay the same or maybe go up a little. Infact my numbers have actually gotten worse. I'm still racking my brain on the root cause and how I can adjust. But my point is as over all raid dps increases I don't think you will see ranger dps scale as well as other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Katsugen<BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Katsugen wrote: <P>But my point is as over all raid dps increases I don't think you will see ranger dps scale as well as other classes.</P> <DIV>-Katsugen <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yup.  Layla did amazing dps in Amend, and so did Tillion our other ranger.  However Amend's conjurorers and necros (except Gisellex) didn't do near the dps that Disso's conj and necros do.  Nor did Amend's assassins do the damage that Skratch and Tigruz do.</P> <P>Disso's raids are built from the ground up to maximize hate and dps.  Period.</P> <P>I'm not denying that Layla parses well in Amend, because of how the raid is structured and how the other players perform.  I'm still positive however, that if Layla was in Disso he'd struggle to make the top 10 and probably never make the top 5 - even when we raid with as little as 18.</P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<P>The thing is, not only do rangers parse sub par compared to other classes. But I would say that they more than any class have to work their [Removed for Content] off just to get their, their is so much stuff going on between movement and timing required just to make it on the parse. </P> <P>Compared to a wizard who can basically stand in 1 place and press buttons.</P>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> Katsugen wrote: <p>But my point is as over all raid dps increases I don't think you will see ranger dps scale as well as other classes.</p> <div>-Katsugen <hr> </div></blockquote> <p>Yup.  Layla did amazing dps in Amend, and so did Tillion our other ranger.  However Amend's conjurorers and necros (except Gisellex) didn't do near the dps that Disso's conj and necros do.  Nor did Amend's assassins do the damage that Skratch and Tigruz do.</p> <p>Disso's raids are built from the ground up to maximize hate and dps.  Period.</p> <p>I'm not denying that Layla parses well in Amend, because of how the raid is structured and how the other players perform.  <font color="#6633cc">I'm still positive however, that if Layla was in Disso he'd struggle to make the top 10 and probably never make the top 5</font> - even when we raid with as little as 18.</p><hr></blockquote>I know I can't test it out, so it's kind of a moot point, but I will have to respectfully disagree.  I don't see any reason why ranger dps shouldn't or doesn't scale along with other classes, specifically with assassins.  My experience has shown that as we progress through T7 I caught up and kept up, and a Necro in Lyceum is about the only time I get put to shame.  We build our raids differently than Dissolution, I don't see any reason that I wouldn't be right next to Skratch and Tigruz in that setup in the same way I'm right next to Darkkeyes and Tash in SD.  By no means do I consider myself to be the epitome of ranger uberness: I still have 7 of my ranged attacks stuck at adept 3 and 3-4 gear slots that are really needing an upgrade.  I doubt 'taking the Ishbu challenge' and transferring a ranger over to test things out is gonna be at the top of Lockeye's to do list, but in the interest of being fair and forthright I firmly believe that I would be squarely in the top 5 of a zone-wide Disso parse with the same buffs/debuffs as Skratch and Tigruz, unless of course there were about 5 necros in there.  I don't know what I'm missing or where my experience is so much different than others, but from looking at my 'raw data' in comparison to the parses I saw Disso post, that's the most realistic and honest conclusion I can come to.</div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arkkon wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you want to observe a rangers average dps then observe a top ww guilds raids and check their rangers dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I would gladly post parses of our rangers, like I post parses of myself, except my guild got rid of all our rangers when we realized they couldn't do the dps of a rogue or summoner, and didn't have the utility either.  I'm not sure if I'm in a top guild or not though...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>I imagine Layla parses higher than almost all of your DPS people on a very regular basis.  He's always top 3 on our raids, and our top 3 are almost always 1500 - 2k<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>One competent person of any dps class can always produce superior results when dps-maxed in a raid, especially when competing against others who aren't necessarily at the top of the game.</P> <P>The first thing that struck me when I came to Disso is that we killed mobs at least 3 times faster than when I was in Amend, and still at least twice as fast using only 3 groups instead of 4.</P> <P>I have a great deal of respect for Layla, but I'd bet everything I own in game that he couldn't parse top six in one of our raids.  As I said, I don't believe you can grasp the situation or make such comparisons until you see it.<BR></P>

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kraks_Aforty wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> MystaSkratch wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> arkkon wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div>If you want to observe a rangers average dps then observe a top ww guilds raids and check their rangers dps. </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote>I would gladly post parses of our rangers, like I post parses of myself, except my guild got rid of all our rangers when we realized they couldn't do the dps of a rogue or summoner, and didn't have the utility either.  I'm not sure if I'm in a top guild or not though... <hr> </blockquote>I imagine Layla parses higher than almost all of your DPS people on a very regular basis.  He's always top 3 on our raids, and our top 3 are almost always 1500 - 2k</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>One competent person of any dps class can always produce superior results when dps-maxed in a raid, especially when competing against others who aren't necessarily at the top of the game.</p> <p>The first thing that struck me when I came to Disso is that we killed mobs at least 3 times faster than when I was in Amend, and still at least twice as fast using only 3 groups instead of 4.</p> <p>I have a great deal of respect for Layla, but I'd bet everything I own in game that he couldn't parse top six in one of our raids.  As I said, I don't believe you can grasp the situation or make such comparisons until you see it.</p><hr></blockquote>Post some parses, let's see it.  I've had some Disso parses linked to me, and while they were good, they sure as hell aren't 2 - 3x faster than we are.</div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Post some parses, let's see it.  I've had some Disso parses linked to me, and while they were good, they sure as hell aren't 2 - 3x faster than we are. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've raided with both guilds.  You haven't.  I've seen parses from both guilds.  You haven't.  I know that Disso normally raids everything (3P, MO and Chel'Drak included) with 18 to 20 people.  I would guess that our total raid dps output with 18 is pretty equal if not better than Amend's with 24.</P>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Post some parses, let's see it.  I've had some Disso parses linked to me, and while they were good, they sure as hell aren't 2 - 3x faster than we are.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I haven't seen your parses.  I did, however, see Skratch posting ours.  Now then, where are your parses?

[Ishbu]

<DIV>Whats the best zone for a ranger to parse in?</DIV>

[Kraks_Aforty]

Last 3 Princes 11,634I'll make sure to parse out DT which we should do tonight and post it for ya.  I guarantee ya, you'll see Layla (if he's there) averaging 1200 and the wizards averaging 1200 - 1500.  Afton and Iceslayeria will be in the 1100 - 1300 range.  Gisellex can go at 1500 - 1800 all night long, as long as she doesn't die.Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<div></div>

[ChaosUndivided]

I'd say Lyceum is the best zone for anyone to parse in, our average dps goes up 20% in Lyceum for some reason.

[Kraks_Aforty]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>Crac, be a man, post the parses that show 1.5-2k dps.  Don't just say 1.5-2k.  Show the exact parses.</div> <div> </div> <div>Exaggerating the figures does nothing to help the obvious ranger problem, it only hurts it.</div><hr></blockquote>If Layla shows up for DT tonight, I will gladly provide you a parse.</div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ranvarenaya wrote: <div></div> <div>Last Monday in Deathtoll:Allies: (01:11:26) 50166630 | 11,704.77 [Darkkeyes-Decapitate-22404]Darkkeyes 4588303 | 1,070.53               <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Tash 4126188 | 962.71                           <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Ranvarenaya 4054075 | 945.89              <font color="#6633cc">Ranger (me)</font>Geradin 3968786 | 925.99                       <font color="#6633cc">Brigand</font>Malignx 3821868 | 891.71                        <font color="#6633cc">Necro</font>Taucher 3745181 | 873.82                      <font color="#6633cc">Monk</font> Laldien 3627037 | 846.25                        <font color="#6633cc">Swashbuckler with an unhealthy love for Martin Lawrence</font>Effrum 3458825 | 807.01                         <font color="#6633cc">Bruiser</font> Khalad 3276035 | 764.36                         <font color="#6633cc">Berserker</font>Eyiania 2687922 | 627.14                         <font color="#6633cc">Conjuror</font></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This is our parse from Deathtoll last Monday (I removed the healers)  I'm the assassin.</p> <p>(52:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 40484361 | 12,860.34 Assassin 4020335 | 1,277.11Wizard 3607621 | 1,146.00Brig1 3347176 | 1,063.27Necro 3073875 | 976.45Conjuror 3068996 | 974.90Brig2 2782510 | 883.90Zerker 2761651 | 877.27Guardian 2234510 | 709.82Illusionist 2199377 | 698.66Warlock 2150585 | 683.16Troub 2149543 | 682.83</p> <p>lol it also looks like we skip a lot of those blobs and stuff that you guys don't :smileytongue:</p><hr></blockquote>Not a comparison to Amend, but just as reference here is the same zone parsed by Disso and SD on the same day.  Disso's total dps was about 1100 more than ours.  There I am, right behind assassins, right above the brigand.  That would be the slot occupied by the wizard in Disso's parse.  By just looking at that pece of data I would imagine I would be either 2nd or 3rd on Disso's zone-wide parse, right square in the middle of their top 5.  Possible new sig:I am a Ranger, and I don't suck.<div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR><BR>Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Looking through the roster its the same old people, plus Afton and Warling.  I see Zild back, I see Fungus back (wonder how long he'll stay), I see Moxi gone, I see Izura back, etc etc.</P> <P>A guild is only as good as its leader, and I played with you for nine months, so I guess I'll just say I doubt any dramatic turn arounds will take place with you at the helm.</P> <P>Amend peaked as a guild in DoF getting Godking and PoS 3rd or so WW.  Its been all downhill (and a quite rough and bumpy ride) from there.  It got so bad you even bailed yourself.  Until you realized you had nowhere else to go.</P> <P>As for shedding fat, opinions vary but if that is directed towards me - well I think everyone who matters knows the truth.  No offense to Geno and Warling but I somehow doubt the addition of two good bruisers makes up for the loss of a great one.</P> <P>Good luck with Amend, I'm sure you're there for the long haul now (or August!) considering your eyes have been opened to the reality of just how far your reputation will get you.</P>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR>Last 3 Princes 11,634<BR><BR><BR>I'll make sure to parse out DT which we should do tonight and post it for ya.  I guarantee ya, you'll see Layla (if he's there) averaging 1200 and the wizards averaging 1200 - 1500.  Afton and Iceslayeria will be in the 1100 - 1300 range.  Gisellex can go at 1500 - 1800 all night long, as long as she doesn't die.<BR><BR><BR>Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, I'm begging you to show me a DT parse where you're above 13k raid dps for an hour and you have 6 classes parsing over 1200 the whole time.  I'm waiting.

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR>Last 3 Princes 11,634<BR><BR><BR>I'll make sure to parse out DT which we should do tonight and post it for ya.  I guarantee ya, you'll see Layla (if he's there) averaging 1200 and the wizards averaging 1200 - 1500.  Afton and Iceslayeria will be in the 1100 - 1300 range.  Gisellex can go at 1500 - 1800 all night long, as long as she doesn't die.<BR><BR><BR>Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>3-Princes:</P>Allies: (04:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 3606191 | 12971.91 [Skratch-Decapitate-22343]<BR>Skratch 376288 | 1353.55-Assassin<BR>Ishbu 375859 | 1352.01-Conjuror<BR>Nooch 369530 | 1329.25-Necro<BR>Falcogen 301048 | 1082.91-Wizard<BR>Zaphear 264275 | 950.63-Brigand<BR>Tangarth 259655 | 934.01-Brigand<BR>Kobal 249134 | 896.17-Warrior Tank<BR>Xede 211936 | 762.36-Warlock<BR>Calaglin 177944 | 640.09-Illusionist<BR>Angua 174727 | 628.51-Troubador<BR>Xelus 171382 | 616.48-Coercer<BR>Dragorn 135965 | 489.08-Brawler Tank<BR>Itoock 113171 | 407.09-Crusader Tank<BR>Fern 98573 | 354.58-Warden<BR>Refrain 97361 | 350.22-Dirge<BR>Elrohn 84164 | 302.75-Templar<BR>Widem 53579 | 192.73-Fury<BR>Avirodar 30536 | 109.84-Inquistor<BR>Oopo 26497 | 95.31-Templar<BR>Elleffgee 23642 | 85.04-Defiler<BR>Uway 8308 | 29.88-Mystic<BR>Yavanna 0 | 0.00-Warden <P>With 22.  But what did the ranger parse?  Because, showing raid-dps is meaningless if we're talking about rangers and you're only giving the total DPS.  Stick to the thread.  It's about ranger DPS.</P>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR><BR>Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Looking through the roster its the same old people, plus Afton and Warling.  I see Zild back, I see Fungus back (wonder how long he'll stay), I see Moxi gone, I see Izura back, etc etc.</P> <P>A guild is only as good as its leader, and I played with you for nine months, so I guess I'll just say I doubt any dramatic turn arounds will take place with you at the helm.</P> <P>Amend peaked as a guild in DoF getting Godking and PoS 3rd or so WW.  Its been all downhill (and a quite rough and bumpy ride) from there.  It got so bad you even bailed yourself.  Until you realized you had nowhere else to go.</P> <P>As for shedding fat, opinions vary but if that is directed towards me - well I think everyone who matters knows the truth.  No offense to Geno and Warling but I somehow doubt the addition of two good bruisers makes up for the loss of a great one.</P> <P>Good luck with Amend, I'm sure you're there for the long haul now (or August!) considering your eyes have been opened to the reality of just how far your reputation will get you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Owned.  Crac, you're your own worst enemy.<BR>

[Ishbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> I'd say Lyceum is the best zone for anyone to parse in, our average dps goes up 20% in Lyceum for some reason.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Oh please.  Nobody is going to touch me in that zone.  If I dont have to do loot I promise I will break 2k raid wide dps.  I think last time i did 1800 and doing loot/dkp.  If that is the best zone for a ranger, this contest is over.

[Sokolov]

<blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:<blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Ranvarenaya wrote: <div></div> <div>Last Monday in Deathtoll:Allies: (01:11:26) 50166630 | 11,704.77 [Darkkeyes-Decapitate-22404]Darkkeyes 4588303 | 1,070.53               <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Tash 4126188 | 962.71                           <font color="#6633cc">Assassin</font>Ranvarenaya 4054075 | 945.89              <font color="#6633cc">Ranger (me)</font>Geradin 3968786 | 925.99                       <font color="#6633cc">Brigand</font>Malignx 3821868 | 891.71                        <font color="#6633cc">Necro</font>Taucher 3745181 | 873.82                      <font color="#6633cc">Monk</font> Laldien 3627037 | 846.25                        <font color="#6633cc">Swashbuckler with an unhealthy love for Martin Lawrence</font>Effrum 3458825 | 807.01                         <font color="#6633cc">Bruiser</font> Khalad 3276035 | 764.36                         <font color="#6633cc">Berserker</font>Eyiania 2687922 | 627.14                         <font color="#6633cc">Conjuror</font></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This is our parse from Deathtoll last Monday (I removed the healers)  I'm the assassin.</p> <p>(52:2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 40484361 | 12,860.34 Assassin 4020335 | 1,277.11Wizard 3607621 | 1,146.00Brig1 3347176 | 1,063.27Necro 3073875 | 976.45Conjuror 3068996 | 974.90Brig2 2782510 | 883.90Zerker 2761651 | 877.27Guardian 2234510 | 709.82Illusionist 2199377 | 698.66Warlock 2150585 | 683.16Troub 2149543 | 682.83</p> <p>lol it also looks like we skip a lot of those blobs and stuff that you guys don't :smileytongue:</p><hr></blockquote>Not a comparison to Amend, but just as reference here is the same zone parsed by Disso and SD on the same day.  Disso's total dps was about 1100 more than ours.  There I am, right behind assassins, right above the brigand.  That would be the slot occupied by the wizard in Disso's parse.  By just looking at that pece of data I would imagine I would be either 2nd or 3rd on Disso's zone-wide parse, right square in the middle of their top 5.  Possible new sig:I am a Ranger, and I don't suck.<div></div><hr></blockquote> I see you landing in 6th.  Anyone else?<div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><BR>I see you landing in 6th.  Anyone else?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>945.89 is lower than 974.90, which is 5th place.  So yah, 6th place.

[Tauch]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:I see you landing in 6th.  Anyone else? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>945.89 is lower than 974.90, which is 5th place.  So yah, 6th place.<hr></blockquote> Here's the point: . Here's you guys: <span>:mansad:</span> <span>:mansad:</span><span></span><div></div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:I see you landing in 6th.  Anyone else? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>945.89 is lower than 974.90, which is 5th place.  So yah, 6th place.<hr></blockquote>I'm not trying to compare raw numbers, as these are different when comparing SD and Disso: Disso is more dps oriented.My 945.89 is 88.357% of Darkkeyes dps, who was top of the parse.  Put me with Skratch, with a Disso dps group, and it would seem logical that I would do the same 88.357% of Skratch's dps.  That would be 1128.46 dps, right behind the wizard and 3rd.  That's the only statement I'm trying to make with that comparison.<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<P>I think it's a valid point.  Maybe 900whatever dps is 3rd, and close to the assassins, but how come the assassins aren't doing 1200+?   Does Disso know how to debuff a mob more or know more about how to buff a character than SD?  I doubt it.  We're talking 2 high end guilds here, the variations in groups, etc. should be minimal.</P>

[Ranvarenaya]

There are only 24 slots in a raid, and only so many things you can maximize with a limited number of slots.  As someone previously stated, Disso sets up to maximize hate and dps, then fills in the rest.  We are quite a bit different, and the best-case scenario for my dps (and assassins) is nowhere near maximum dps.  In fact, I do about 10% more dps in a full raid than I do in a single group.  There is plenty of potential for an increase in my dps due to group setup, but with our tank-centric setup we are able to kill everything in the game except the Matron, so I'm not gonna be in Exill's ear begging for him to change so I can put up a higher raw number.<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

Right, but unless you're willing to, or willing to xfer servers, that's not any way to make a comparison.  I don't understand why a dps class isn't in a dps group I guess...

[Sokolov]

<blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:<blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:I see you landing in 6th.  Anyone else? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>945.89 is lower than 974.90, which is 5th place.  So yah, 6th place.<hr></blockquote>I'm not trying to compare raw numbers, as these are different when comparing SD and Disso: Disso is more dps oriented.My 945.89 is 88.357% of Darkkeyes dps, who was top of the parse.  Put me with Skratch, with a Disso dps group, and it would seem logical that I would do the same 88.357% of Skratch's dps.  That would be 1128.46 dps, right behind the wizard and 3rd.  That's the only statement I'm trying to make with that comparison.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Numbers are funny as it is all about intrepretation. Observe. Even a % based calculation shows that you did 8% of your guild's DPS. 8% of Disso's would land you at 1039, 4th place at best.  And it is likely you will do less from a % of total raid DPS prespective there - so I don't see 6th being unreasonable.<div></div>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Sokolov wrote:<blockquote><div></div>Numbers are funny as it is all about intrepretation.</blockquote> Observe. Even a % based calculation shows that you did 8% of your guild's DPS. 8% of Disso's would land you at 1039, 4th place at best.  And it is likely you will do less from a % of total raid DPS prespective there - so I don't see 6th being unreasonable.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So i guess our difference in perspective is thus:  I believe that rangers can benefit from increases in dps buffs in a manner similar to assassins and brigands, and you believe that I'm pretty much capped and wouldn't get any higher regardless of setup: and Disso's dps classes are just so much better than me that I would plummet down the parse if I was with them on raid rather than scale according to their setup.On a side note, Disso has said that they usually have less than 24 on a raid, so with fewer dps classes I would likely contribute greater than 8% of the raid's total.  BTW, 4th is closer to 3rd than 6th anyway.</div>

[MystaSkrat]

No need to get all defensive about something you can't even prove here.  Although I'd like to know what I'm getting done to me that your assassins aren't where I'm putting out 2-300 more dps zone wide...

[Ranvarenaya]

<div></div>I'm not on the defensive, I like the debate.  (B.A. in Philosophy and seldom a place to apply it)  I would be curious myself to see what would happen if Disso and SD traded group setup for a raid and compared, but I doubt either of us are gonna start sending strategy guides to the other, so the best we can do is go back and forth with theory and speculation, which is plenty engaging for me.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 PM</span>

[geron]

<div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Regardless of what I actually observe in game as a player, the server wide parses show that Rangers are performing where they should be. In <u>none</u> of the categories does a Conjurer, Necromancer, Swashbuckler, or Brigand ever outrank the Ranger's DPS averages. What I observe in game also happens to reflect what the data shows, but not every individual Ranger's performance will reflect the data. I know it may not be what some of you may want to hear, but I'm going by raw data.</div><p>Message Edited by Lockeye on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">06:28 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>well whatever your using to "collect" this data is obviously broken......im a brigand..spose to be t2ish whatever dps but i dont think i've ever been beaten by a ranger..even a WELL equipped one for that matter...rangers are broke and no matter what you tell us we know they are</div>

[Lexan]

<DIV>Well if i dont have to tank this week i supose i could raid on axkiva aswell.  I have all t6 and t7 masters and full fabled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=110868107" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=110868107</A></DIV><p>Message Edited by Lexani- on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>

[Ranvarenaya]

Axkiva, I think you may be pleasantly surprised.  It may take a few pulls to adjust and figure out how to max your damage as it has changed so dramatically recently, but we are much better off (IMO) than we were when you went into retirement.  <div></div>

[Wil81115]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <P>This is why zone-wide parses exist.  They make it so that every different kind of encounter is counted.  From that single mob encounter, to that group of 6.<BR></P> <HR> <P>Last weeks Halls of Seeing, thought i did pretty well.  But this in no way changes my feeling about our class needing help.. i had several group procs on me most of the night as well..</P> <P>Allies: (55:57) 47658849 | 14196.86 [************-Decapitate-23181]</P> <P>Assassin 3946207 | 1175.52</P> <P>Wizard 3637784 | 1083.64</P> <P>Assassin 3459302 | 1030.47</P> <P>Ranger(Me) 3451750 | 1028.23</P> <P>Assassin 3448154 | 1027.15</P> <P>Conj  3113908 | 927.59</P> <P>Warlock 3084305 | 918.77</P> <P>Brig  2894074 | 862.10</P> <P>Guard MT 2649563 | 789.27</P> <P>Swashy  2449975 | 729.81</P> <P>a 1340 was good enough for 6th on 1 fight :smileysad:</P> <P>highest vs a named 1171 on Bloodbeast</P> <P>trash group high was 1656...</P> <P>No doubt in my mind if i hadn't had the group procs i bet i wouldnt have broke 900 for the night..</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:Axkiva, I think you may be pleasantly surprised.  It may take a few pulls to adjust and figure out how to max your damage as it has changed so dramatically recently, but we are much better off (IMO) than we were when you went into retirement.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>Ranvarenaya, you have a debating degree, retort this for me will ya..For agruement sake, lets assume the ranger and assassin are getting equal parsings on raids. Lets also assume these people have equal gear, equal level, equal aa's.Now, one person plays there character and is able to stand still while getting there peak damage. The other moves around back and forth paying full attention and running back and forthlike a madman while spamming each and every CA to achieve equal damage.Now, lets say that both classes start going running back and forth to achieve there highest damage. How equal is the system going to be then?Now incase I am not making myself clear.. On auto attack alone a assassin does 100% melee damage.  A ranger will take advantage of ranged and melee auto attack while moving around to get 80% melee auto attack, 80% ranged (assuming theres a 20% gap when running back and forth). Now the assassin is getting the same damage as a ranger at 100% melee, the ranger is getting the same damage at a mixed 160% total.A while back morguard said to the ranger community "if rangers are getting 50% damage from procs than that needs to be fixed".. Well, wouldent this apply here?</div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Now, one person plays there character and is able to stand still while getting there peak damage.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>So, which one is just sitting there getting all thier peak damage?  It's not assassins, at least, not this one.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>MystaSkratch wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> LoreLady wrote: <div>Now, one person plays there character and is able to stand still while getting there peak damage.</div> <hr> </blockquote>So, which one is just sitting there getting all thier peak damage?  It's not assassins, at least, not this one.<hr></blockquote>Sitting still as in, spamming all there melee CA's and staying behind the mob. This scenario isent ment to have assassins with there thumb up there bum and there mind in neutral.</div>

[Geoff]

<DIV>posting these ambiguoous parses is pointless...unless you have the exact same raid makeup, and the exact same skilled people playing each class.  Adn so many of these "proof parses" hurt your argument.  In some areas, you have two of the same class doing wildy different amounts of damage.  Know what that means?  It means they aren't as well equipped, aren't in as functional a group setup, or ....*gasp*, aren't the same skill level.  Sorry guys, I have seen it up close and in person, where we had a ranger join our guild, and then parse 1/2 of what a competent ranger parsed.  And always the response is "whoa, how do I do that?!?"  Same goes for just about every class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you've got Lockeye, who's atleast showing you the time of day and addressing your concerns (see when the last time a dev posted in the warlock forums, for example),  and you refute him based one what....your superior data?  Guys, he's got numbers and figures you couldn't even come close to matching.  </DIV>

[Lexan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR>Axkiva, I think you may be pleasantly surprised.  It may take a few pulls to adjust and figure out how to max your damage as it has changed so dramatically recently, but we are much better off (IMO) than we were when you went into retirement.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's ok im tanking this week anyway so it'll have to wait <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Guys, he's got numbers and figures you couldn't even come close to matching. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It would be super if we could see those numbers!

[Lexan]

<P>LOL on a side note i went with a pu raid to lab the other night on axkiva and died like 8 times from pulling agro..... The tank blew [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]................</P> <P> </P> <P>Also the rangers that are "toping the parse" what aa lines did you end up going with im assumeing you took the agi line to the end but what was your end aa makeup? </P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Geoff77 wrote:<div>posting these ambiguoous parses is pointless...unless you have the exact same raid makeup, and the exact same skilled people playing each class.  Adn so many of these "proof parses" hurt your argument.  In some areas, you have two of the same class doing wildy different amounts of damage.  Know what that means?  It means they aren't as well equipped, aren't in as functional a group setup, or ....*gasp*, aren't the same skill level.  Sorry guys, I have seen it up close and in person, where we had a ranger join our guild, and then parse 1/2 of what a competent ranger parsed.  And always the response is "whoa, how do I do that?!?"  Same goes for just about every class.</div> <div> </div> <div>Now you've got Lockeye, who's atleast showing you the time of day and addressing your concerns (see when the last time a dev posted in the warlock forums, for example),  and you refute him based one what....your superior data?  Guys, he's got numbers and figures you couldn't even come close to matching.  </div><hr></blockquote>Well, we have dissolusion backing us up. None of them are rangers, and they know what they are talking about.. None of them are rangers.. There are people from nearly every other class backing rangers up here.And, getting parsings isent a bad thing.. If there is even ONE guild that is showing "<u><i><b>reasonable</b></i></u>" numbers in that parse we will stop and ask how and why. Unfortunatly, my mind is not at ease. The evidence and data that have been provided does not satisfy me, untill I see parsings otherwise (and not pets with a ranger name) I will continue this. And so will everyone else.As for your second paragraph.. Raw data, and parsings show otherwise. While I dont expect anyone to go to the extent Sokolov or myself did.. I would love to see a ranger whos averaging 200-400 dps than myself. </div>

[Lexan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geoff77 wrote:<BR> <DIV>posting these ambiguoous parses is pointless...unless you have the exact same raid makeup, and the exact same skilled people playing each class.  Adn so many of these "proof parses" hurt your argument.  In some areas, you have two of the same class doing wildy different amounts of damage.  Know what that means?  It means they aren't as well equipped, aren't in as functional a group setup, or ....*gasp*, aren't the same skill level.  Sorry guys, I have seen it up close and in person, where we had a ranger join our guild, and then parse 1/2 of what a competent ranger parsed.  And always the response is "whoa, how do I do that?!?"  Same goes for just about every class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you've got Lockeye, who's atleast showing you the time of day and addressing your concerns (see when the last time a dev posted in the warlock forums, for example),  and you refute him based one what....your superior data?  Guys, he's got numbers and figures you couldn't even come close to matching.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, we have dissolusion backing us up. None of them are rangers, and they know what they are talking about.. None of them are rangers.. There are people from nearly every other class backing rangers up here.<BR><BR>And, getting parsings isent a bad thing.. If there is even ONE guild that is showing "<U><I><B>reasonable</B></I></U>" numbers in that parse we will stop and ask how and why. Unfortunatly, my mind is not at ease. The evidence and data that have been provided does not satisfy me, untill I see parsings otherwise (and not pets with a ranger name) I will continue this. And so will everyone else.<BR><BR>As for your second paragraph.. Raw data, and parsings show otherwise. While I dont expect anyone to go to the extent Sokolov or myself did.. I would love to see a ranger whos averaging 200-400 dps than myself. <BR><BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>[Removed for Content] im a ranger [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wil81115]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lexani- wrote:<BR> <P>LOL on a side note i went with a pu raid to lab the other night on axkiva and died like 8 times from pulling agro..... The tank blew [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]................</P> <P> </P> <P>Also the rangers that are "toping the parse" what aa lines did you end up going with im assumeing you took the agi line to the end but what was your end aa makeup? </P> <P><BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>I went STR   4/4/4/4/1 and Agi  4/4/4/5/1</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Ranvarenaya]

I've tried a few achievment setups and ended up with the same as Gnususa. In response to the earlier post about running around like a madman and doing 160% of your damage, I have no idea what the question is or I would offer an answer.<div></div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geoff77 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you've got Lockeye, who's atleast showing you the time of day and addressing your concerns (see when the last time a dev posted in the warlock forums, for example),  and you refute him based one what....your superior data?  Guys, he's got numbers and figures you couldn't even come close to matching.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>None of us have any clue what those numbers include.  </P> <P>The days of being asked to accept important conclusions based on blind faith ended about the same time attorneys stopped sending out $40,000 invoices with one line reading "For services rendered."</P> <P>Some detail is needed to justify a conclusion that raiders are "right on the money" regarding dps at this time, especially since educated common belief is the exact opposite.</P>

[schla]

All I can say is that I am deeply and profoundly disappointed in the things that have happened to the ranger class. I have been a moderately pleased SOE customer until now but your post has destroyed all hope in me for a class i have been playing since 2 months after eq2 came out.Your sad attempts at "balancing" the ranger class have destroyed it for all of us who do not play PvP or have the desire to play any other class in general.From what I have read tonight I am fairly confident that I will either be starting a new class or quitting EQ2 all together because of your careless actions.I used to love this game and it breaks my heart that it has come to this....<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:I've tried a few achievment setups and ended up with the same as Gnususa. In response to the earlier post about running around like a madman and doing 160% of your damage, I have no idea what the question is or I would offer an answer.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Talking what needs to be done to tap into melee and ranged auto attack dps to make dps close to equal. I do it to parse higher, I know some others do as well.</div>

[Ranvarenaya]

Oh, from that perspective I do agree.  To get good ranger dps takes a lot of work/effort/practice.  It's definitely much different than it was before, but i still like it.  Maybe we have to change our perception: maybe Ranger is just a hard class to play well from here on out (assuming things are really as they were intended).<div></div>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Ranvarenaya wrote:Oh, from that perspective I do agree.  To get good ranger dps takes a lot of work/effort/practice.  It's definitely much different than it was before, but i still like it.  Maybe we have to change our perception: maybe Ranger is just a hard class to play well from here on out (assuming things are really as they were intended).<div></div><hr></blockquote>Then isent your own comment and rebuttle the reason shadowknights are pointed out as the second most useless class? Because they require 10x more work than anyother class to do there job?Dont get me wrong, I love being able to be all fast acting and all.. But to me, extra effort = extra reward. If theres a newb assassin out there who parses the same as me, how is that perception on everyone else when I do the same damage with twice the work? When im the better player..</div>

[Kelader]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Badd Boy wrote:<BR> <BR><BR><BR>Conjurors/Necros......Rangers......Berserkers......and Wizards/Warlocks.<BR><BR><BR> <P><BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yea, please tell me you don't have any assassins.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Heh, we do have one. He is in recruit status and does not raid as much with us atm. Our Assassin changed servers some time ago. I can't speak for assassins, so I did not throw them in.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Badd Boy - Last time I looked your new assassin was a ranger.  Why do you think he betrayed? 

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> but  I have NEVER been able to beat a swash in DPS in a group, even when he was the tank for the group.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry.. but you're joking .. at least if you talk about groups .. i don't raid .. but often paly with our swashie he as a lot of masters and fabled stuff .. and even if i only have adept 3's and legendary he never does mor damage then my ranger. AND .. i normally only use T5 summoned arrows.<BR></P> <P>Btw.: I don't look on single parses, but on the total for a zone .. so maybe for 2-3 hours HoF or whatever, and allways was nr. 1 in groups .. maybe the distance has grown shorter .. before KoS i was 300 over the swashy and now only 100-150 .. but still do more.</P><p>Message Edited by Beldin_ on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:35 PM</span>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Beldin_ wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> curtlewis wrote: <div> but  I have NEVER been able to beat a swash in DPS in a group, even when he was the tank for the group.  <hr> </div></blockquote>Sorry.. but you're joking .. at least if you talk about groups .. i don't raid .. but often paly with our swashie he as a lot of masters and fabled stuff .. and even if i only have adept 3's and legendary he never does mor damage then my ranger. AND .. i normally only use T5 summoned arrows.<hr></blockquote><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=14639#M14639" target=_blank>Swash dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </a>Should have fun when looking at snarks dps.</div>

[Vinday]

<P>As another predator...believe it or not I can feel your pain.  I remember a time not to long ago *caugh* T6 *caugh* where I was constantly being outparsed as an Assassin by rangers.</P> <P>Frankly, I trade top spots on the parses with our two rangers all the time in this tier. There's a chance I beat them more times than not...but that doesnt mean I havent seen them make top 5 consistantly.  And yes, I get out-parsed CONSISTANTLY by our Necro.  But that could simply be how well our Necro plays.  My Assassin is very well geared...and I've cranked out my 2k+ rounds...however I havent come close to our Necro who has put out 3300 or so dps in a given round.</P> <P>Regardless, all predators in T7 right now are capable of top 5 raid dps parses....rangers and assassins alike. Its about how your guild places them in groups, and what utility classes are available in your guild to boost the dps.</P>

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Vindayen wrote:<div></div> <p>As another predator...believe it or not I can feel your pain.  I remember a time not to long ago *caugh* T6 *caugh* where I was constantly being outparsed as an Assassin by rangers.</p> <p>Frankly, I trade top spots on the parses with our two rangers all the time in this tier. There's a chance I beat them more times than not...but that doesnt mean I havent seen them make top 5 consistantly.  And yes, I get out-parsed CONSISTANTLY by our Necro.  But that could simply be how well our Necro plays.  My Assassin is very well geared...and I've cranked out my 2k+ rounds...however I havent come close to our Necro who has put out 3300 or so dps in a given round.</p> <p>Regardless, all predators in T7 right now are capable of top 5 raid dps parses....rangers and assassins alike. Its about how your guild places them in groups, and what utility classes are available in your guild to boost the dps.</p><hr></blockquote>This all comes into question of "where each eachtype should be in dps".. Chances are, t1 will see much higher in the new expansion than a necro will ever be able to see.. But on the other hand, that necro will likely be getting its own game defining thing..And 3300 dps? Umm.. your making that up <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Btw, snark is the guildleader of the top raidguild on the befallen server.</div>

[Beldin_]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Beldin_ wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> curtlewis wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> but  I have NEVER been able to beat a swash in DPS in a group, even when he was the tank for the group.  <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry.. but you're joking .. at least if you talk about groups .. i don't raid .. but often paly with our swashie he as a lot of masters and fabled stuff .. and even if i only have adept 3's and legendary he never does mor damage then my ranger. AND .. i normally only use T5 summoned arrows.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=14639#M14639" target=_blank>Swash dps <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </A><BR><BR>Should have fun when looking at snarks dps.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't really think thats in a group situation, and i talked about groups here .. the thing in raids is much more how synergys of buffs work, and on the other hand, a single parse without knowing the group/raid-setup says nothing .. i can also post parses where i did 9k dps .. or where i just did 300 .. just depends of if i want to whine or prowl.<BR>

[FlameVapid]

<DIV>ran i know u ain't talking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] man u bet me like 3 times outta 10 maybe u noob i eat rangers up like there a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing box of fruit loops...</DIV>

[Crychtonn]

<DIV>Ranvarenaya which bow do you currently use ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS - If it's the nice Ancient bow from Venekor I both hate / jealous of you :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PPS - If it wasn't so damm near impossible to get good bows compared to how easy it is for every other class to get weapons ranger might not be so damm bad off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PPPS - For those that blindly believe the parse info Lockeye basis his opinion on please remember this.  This is the same data collecting system that got Blackgaurd to post "50% of ranger DPS does not come from proc's".</DIV><p>Message Edited by Crychtonn on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 PM</span>

[MystaSkrat]

I was wondering what was taking you so long to make a post on here.  Yes, we need more fabled bows and less fabled 2H please!

[LordAng]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> Gaige, You came from a guild that had prolly the top end ranger on the server. He and I have had many conversations about dps and where we land on the parses. Until recently I haven't disagreed much with where we were landing on the parse. You've seen his dps, would you argue that Lockeye is wrong?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Layla is a very good ranger that parsed well in Amend.  However, I seriously doubt he could break the top 6 in Disso even with Bazkul.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ill take that bet, you're gonna regret cause im the best there's ever been.</P> <P>what do your parses look like anyways?</P> <P>keep in mind that if youre claiming to drop mobs in seconds flat, that any competant ranger could have an inflated high DPS count just by spamming CAs</P><p>Message Edited by LordAngus on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:52 PM</span>

[Vinday]

<P>Nope. Wasnt kidding...actually was more like 3400 raid dps on that round.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR><BR>Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for shedding fat, opinions vary but if that is directed towards me - well I think everyone who matters knows the truth.  <FONT color=#ff0000>No offense to Geno and <STRONG>Warling</STRONG> but I somehow doubt the addition of two good bruisers makes up for the loss of a great one.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Funny you call yourself a "great" Bruiser even though you just recently started playing the class.   You can't even put yourself in the same playing field as Warling, he is one of the best Bruisers WW and has been playing the class since release.  Warling is beyond a "Good" Bruiser, a better one then you'll ever be.<BR><BR>-Oh, umm, sorry.  Back to the Ranger DPS conversation. :smileysurprised:<BR></DIV>

[Ranvarenaya]

I have Bazkul right now, we haven't seen Venekor's bow (and I'm not holding my breath, got bazkul on our 15th tarinax kill).  I do agree that bow itemization is weak, especially when compared to 2h weapons, which bows are supposed to equal in DR and such.<div></div>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordAngus wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Katsugen wrote:<BR> Gaige, You came from a guild that had prolly the top end ranger on the server. He and I have had many conversations about dps and where we land on the parses. Until recently I haven't disagreed much with where we were landing on the parse. You've seen his dps, would you argue that Lockeye is wrong?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Layla is a very good ranger that parsed well in Amend.  However, I seriously doubt he could break the top 6 in Disso even with Bazkul.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ill take that bet, you're gonna regret cause im the best there's ever been.</P> <P>what do your parses look like anyways?</P> <P>keep in mind that if youre claiming to drop mobs in seconds flat, that any competant ranger could have an inflated high DPS count just by spamming CAs</P> <P>Message Edited by LordAngus on <SPAN class=date_text>07-29-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:52 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P>Pinski wrote:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kraks_Aforty wrote:<BR>Last 3 Princes 11,634<BR><BR><BR>I'll make sure to parse out DT which we should do tonight and post it for ya.  I guarantee ya, you'll see Layla (if he's there) averaging 1200 and the wizards averaging 1200 - 1500.  Afton and Iceslayeria will be in the 1100 - 1300 range.  Gisellex can go at 1500 - 1800 all night long, as long as she doesn't die.<BR><BR><BR>Things are much better here now, Gaige.  Come to find out, just had to shed some of the fat and the meat was real lean underneath.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>3-Princes:</P> <P>Allies: (04:3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 3606191 | 12971.91 [Skratch-Decapitate-22343]<BR>Skratch 376288 | 1353.55-Assassin<BR>Ishbu 375859 | 1352.01-Conjuror<BR>Nooch 369530 | 1329.25-Necro<BR>Falcogen 301048 | 1082.91-Wizard<BR>Zaphear 264275 | 950.63-Brigand<BR>Tangarth 259655 | 934.01-Brigand<BR>Kobal 249134 | 896.17-Warrior Tank<BR>Xede 211936 | 762.36-Warlock<BR>Calaglin 177944 | 640.09-Illusionist<BR>Angua 174727 | 628.51-Troubador<BR>Xelus 171382 | 616.48-Coercer<BR>Dragorn 135965 | 489.08-Brawler Tank<BR>Itoock 113171 | 407.09-Crusader Tank<BR>Fern 98573 | 354.58-Warden<BR>Refrain 97361 | 350.22-Dirge<BR>Elrohn 84164 | 302.75-Templar<BR>Widem 53579 | 192.73-Fury<BR>Avirodar 30536 | 109.84-Inquistor<BR>Oopo 26497 | 95.31-Templar<BR>Elleffgee 23642 | 85.04-Defiler<BR>Uway 8308 | 29.88-Mystic<BR>Yavanna 0 | 0.00-Warden</P> <P>With 22.  But what did the ranger parse?  Because, showing raid-dps is meaningless if we're talking about rangers and you're only giving the total DPS.  Stick to the thread.  It's about ranger DPS.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>So, we got the raid dps for your 3 Princes, just break it down like Calaglin did for us, since noone else will... :smileysad:</P>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<P>I still fail to see wizards outparsing rangers on most mobs =P</P> <P>Too bad I missed the entire thread.. and honestly? </P> <P>I'd say a ranger would average 3rd to 5th on parse, if the raid were full of people that knew their class.</P> <P>heh, and i'd like to show parses, but that would be bragging.</P> <P> </P> <P>and why bother posting DPS averages for an entire raid? Almost everyone slacks off on trash, hell, people even slack on named if they don't need to try. =P</P><p>Message Edited by xMiLoSiSx on <span class=date_text>07-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 PM</span>

[Mazrik85]

<DIV>Heh ill assume most of you have noticed that Lockeye hasnt returned to this thread since his last comment right?  Sadly he doesnt have to justify his data or himself to anyone here regardless of how right or wrong he may be.  He says he has the data that shows Rangers are ok, and as a Developer Im pretty sure thats all he needs to simply forget about this thread heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally agree with the rangers but let me play devils advocate a second just to give an outsiders view.  Im sure that most peoples parses are as accurate as they can make them but you also HAVE to accept the fact that DPS numbers are VERY easy to manipulate.  There is absolutly nothing stopping someone from holding back to make their damage output seem weaker then it really is just because they think it might mean a buff in the future.  With that said, I can easily see why all these "parse" threads never get a second glance.  The vast majority of players are looking out for them selves and game balance be damned and as a Developer he cant listen to you very much, and when he does it must be with a grain of salt.  Is his "data" wrong or is yours?  As a developer who do you think he is going to trust?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok now with THAT said... It is a known fact that actions speak much louder then words.  You guys can post these anger threads till the cows come home and I hope its obvious now that they really dont care.. and obviously dont even agree with you.  If you want action taken then you must take action.  If sony sees a mass exodus from the ranger class they will have no choice but to go over them yet again.  If you guys dont care enough to protest then your really just wasting your time because talk is cheap. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Devizi]

Crac's head must be spinning in 30 different directions with all the ownage hes getting hit by.  Hi buddy! <div></div>

[Pins]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR>A bunch of stuff!<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly, so far only Second Dawn has shown parses breaking it down.  We're trying to show Ranger DPS, yet in the end only 1 group has.  Why is this?

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <P>I still fail to see wizards outparsing rangers on most mobs =P</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>you must not raid with good wizards,</P> <P>labs zone parse today</P> <P>Allies: (57:46) 31934785 | 9213.73 [HH Illu-Fusion-20411]<BR>Illu 347 | 4403511 | 1273.06  (me wizard)<BR>Alle 1046 | 3306449 | 1008.99  (conj)<BR>Numb 599 | 2644267 | 765.35 (ranger-who after hearing that he was working as intended pulled out everything he could do to max dps on this raid)<BR>Oben 730 | 2391206 | 695.12 (warlock)<BR>Acce 582 | 2339501 | 695.45 (necro)<BR>Nald 5025 | 2075488 | 614.05 (sk MT)<BR>Band 329 | 2003041 | 580.09 (zerker)<BR>Will 104 | 1911852 | 569.00 (warlock 2)<BR>Vinh 922 | 1778155 | 554.29 (monk)<BR>Monc 314 | 1497490 | 508.66 (ranger 2)<BR>Sand 71 | 1216244 | 352.84 (coercer)<BR>Mara 687 | 1151003 | 333.72 (brusier)<BR>Kala 543 | 1117094 | 325.11 (zerker)<BR>::removed everyone else::</P> <P> </P> <P>Labs raid on 07/01/06 zone parse</P> <P>Allies: (56:34) 30895474 | 9102.97 [HH Illu-Fusion-27689]<BR>Illu 419 | 4772553 | 1408.25  (me)<BR>Alle 402 | 2875484 | 851.49  (conj)<BR>Oben 942 | 2719142 | 803.05 (warlock)<BR>Numb 578 | 2612681 | 773.21 (ranger)<BR>Kyri 255 | 2483483 | 735.19 (wizard 2)<BR>Elif 701 | 1810711 | 534.92 (forgot)<BR>Nald 4543 | 1698795 | 500.68 (sk MT)<BR>Monc 290 | 1640459 | 486.35 (ranger 2)<BR>Mara 835 | 1426013 | 421.27 (brusier)<BR>Vinh 430 | 1386085 | 421.30 (monk)<BR>Will 70 | 1324997 | 496.63 (warlock 2)<BR>Haka 644 | 1231242 | 362.98 (paly)</P> <P> </P> <P>how about this one on MOA raid single target named (the one at the ent)</P> <P>Allies: (00:51) 376131 | 7375.12 [HH Illu-Fusion-22267]<BR>Illu 1 | 111083 | 2777.08  (me)<BR>Numb 17 | 35566 | 889.15 (ranger)<BR>Kyri 0 | 32645 | 1088.17 (wizard)<BR>Alle 9 | 31154 | 865.39 (conj)<BR>Mara 25 | 22858 | 557.51 (brusier)<BR>Monc 3 | 17520 | 584.00 (ranger 2)<BR>Sand 0 | 11372 | 355.38 (coercer)<BR>Keit 7 | 11069 | 225.90 (???)<BR>Utor 3 | 11031 | 250.70 (paly)<BR>Trit 5 | 10303 | 396.27 (conj)<BR>Will 1 | 10297 | 1144.11 (warlock)</P> <P> </P> <P>and heres the MOA raid zone parse</P> <P>Allies: (32:59) 16944113 | 8561.96 [HH Illu-Fusion-27422]<BR>Illu 279 | 3899407 | 1981.41  (me)<BR>Numb 421 | 1438158 | 731.14 (ranger)<BR>Kyri 30 | 1329941 | 679.23 (wizard 2)<BR>Monc 260 | 999558 | 510.76 (ranger 2)<BR>Mara 479 | 923540 | 469.04 (brusier)<BR>Alle 124 | 855165 | 435.42 (conj)<BR>Sand 16 | 761290 | 388.81 (coercer)<BR>Keit 15 | 632591 | 319.98 (??)<BR>Larr 211 | 602681 | 306.71 (guardian)<BR>Jaos 6 | 599973 | 304.71 (??)<BR>Heav 7 | 587395 | 306.25 (??)<BR>Nald 1133 | 553708 | 513.17 (sk)<BR>Trit 162 | 519293 | 265.62 (conj)<BR>Pand 57 | 477179 | 253.41(fury)<BR>Serr 129 | 436449 | 223.25(assasin i think)<BR>Will 13 | 376800 | 431.12 (warlock)<BR><BR></P> <P>from the looks of it to me rangers need the potential to do 2k dps like the rest of the T1 classes for at least 2 minutes, every 3-5 minutes.</P> <P>if they're supposidly t1 dps why am I always doubling his dps on zone parses and trippling it on a few single parses?  it's not like he doesn't know what he's doing or not getting haste/dps/mele proc buffs.<BR><BR><BR></P> <P>for more support on why rangers need a boost check out these other parses</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=25760&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=25760&page=2</A>  (at the bottom)</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=24738&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=24738&page=2</A> (page 2 and 3)</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 AM</span>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<P>Well, where as I discredited raid averages, let me show you some single fights.</P> <P>LoA average.. Zoned in with three groups, this includes afks--auto attacks. </P> <P>Allies: (59:40) 45754632 | 12,780.62 [Assassin-Decapitate-16223] <BR>Conjuror  4857503 | 1,356.84<BR>Skaer 4435425 | 1,238.95 <- Me (I'm a ranger)<BR>Monk 4090770 | 1,142.67<BR>Berserker 3872459 | 1,081.69<BR>Swashbuckler 3690274 | 1,030.80<BR>Brigand 3336977 | 932.12<BR>Paladin 3326953 | 929.32<BR>(Ranger # 2) 3265813 | 912.24<BR>Bruiser 2805789 | 783.74<BR>Fury 2228248 | 622.42<BR>Dirge 1931712 | 539.58<BR>SK 1783998 | 498.32<BR>Guardian 1201326 | 335.57<BR>Troubador 1047744 | 292.67<BR>Fury 910117 | 254.22<BR>Defiler 542864 | 151.64<BR>Coercer (boxed) 454888 | 127.06<BR>Assassin- Came very late 335844 | 93.81<BR>Fury (Tank in offensive) 264411 | 73.86<BR>Inquisitor 243470 | 68.01<BR>Templar 238587 | 66.64</P> <P>Vilucidea</P> <P>Allies: (05:56) 3012189 | 8,461.21 [Assassin-Decapitate-16223] <BR>Skaer 386539 | 1,085.78<BR>Conjuror 375904 | 1,055.91<BR>Assassin 335844 | 943.38<BR>Ranger 284448 | 799.01<BR>Brigand 237935 | 668.36<BR>Swashbuckler 184685 | 518.78<BR>Bruiser 182850 | 513.62<BR>Berserker 160485 | 450.80<BR>Guardian 139075 | 390.66<BR>SK 137604 | 386.53<BR>Paladin 127640 | 358.54<BR></P> <P>Playful</P> <P>Allies: (02:14) 2348833 | 17,528.60 [Skaer-Rain of Arrows-6438] <BR>Skaer 272431 | 2,033.07<BR>Conjuror 237671 | 1,773.66<BR>Ranger 237425 | 1,771.83<BR>Monk 228223 | 1,703.16<BR>Zerk 175011 | 1,306.05<BR>Swashbuckler 145925 | 1,088.99<BR>Brigand 136013 | 1,015.02<BR>Paladin 131787 | 983.49<BR>Fury 131154 | 978.76<BR>SK 110132 | 821.88<BR>Fury 104890 | 782.76<BR>Bruiser 100618 | 750.88<BR>Guardian 84242 | 628.67</P> <P>Gnillaw</P> <P>Allies: (04:27) 3405686 | 12,755.38 [Skaer-Sniper Shot-9463] <BR>Monk 380671 | 1,425.73<BR>Skaer 332898 | 1,246.81<BR>Zerk 306941 | 1,149.59<BR>Ranger 295897 | 1,108.23<BR>Brigand 289638 | 1,084.79<BR>Pally 236888 | 887.22<BR>Swashy 236425 | 885.49<BR>Conjuror 228166 | 854.55<BR>Bruiser 198949 | 745.13<BR>Guardian 173775 | 650.84<BR>Monk 173765 | 650.81<BR></P> <P>Essence of Fear</P> <P>Allies: (02:26) 2130914 | 14,595.30 [Skaer-Sniper Shot-10797] (19 People)<BR>Monk 225125 | 1,541.95<BR>Swashy 205404 | 1,406.88<BR>Brigand 202782 | 1,388.92<BR>Skaer 199687 | 1,367.72<BR>Conjuror 194263 | 1,330.57<BR>Ranger 185479 | 1,270.40<BR>Zerk 165141 | 1,131.10<BR>Pally 148076 | 1,014.22<BR>Bruiser 125137 | 857.10<BR>SK 108506 | 743.19<BR>Dirge 93056 | 637.37</P> <P> </P> <P>I do ok, for being nerfed so badly.. this is just one instance, I could go hunting for good parses, throw a few more 1600+ over 1:30 parses..<BR></P>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<P>Relic runs don't count.</P> <P>And I edited out the names of the other members since I am not yet a member of the guild, and due to the leaders discretion he asked that I not leave the names of the other guildies there to avoid attention.</P> <P>btw, <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=421630106" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=421630106</A>. I could use some better gear too.<BR></P><p>Message Edited by xMiLoSiSx on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:12 AM</span>

[Yunga_511]

<DIV>Necromancer's/Conjuror's Still > All, Exception Skaer....He is DA Man!</DIV>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yunga_511 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Necromancer's/Conjuror's Still > All, Exception Skaer....He is DA Man!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I sold my soul to DPS better quill. It's too bad they stuck me with a troub and an afk entire zone Necromancer >.<.</P>

[Yunga_511]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xMiLoSiSx wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Yunga_511 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Necromancer's/Conjuror's Still > All, Exception Skaer....He is DA Man!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I sold my soul to DPS better quill. It's too bad they stuck me with a troub and an afk entire zone Necromancer >.<.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thats re'tarded

[Lariu]

Serr 129 | 436449 | 223.25(assasin i think) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL.. speaking from experience, assassin can knock out 800-1k dps just by switching on autoattack. Your parses are complete rubbish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, no way could a wizzie parse that high without having to subsequently tank whatever you're nuking.</DIV>

[xMiLoSiSx]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lariuss wrote:<BR>Serr 129 | 436449 | 223.25(assasin i think) <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL.. speaking from experience, assassin can knock out 800-1k dps just by switching on autoattack. Your parses are complete rubbish.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, no way could a wizzie parse that high without having to subsequently tank whatever you're nuking.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>/agree</P> <P>I made fun of this guy in 60-69 server chat. 1.9k 32 minute raid average to the tanks 300 DPS..</P> <P>In order for this to work, the Wizard would need.</P> <P>Troubador, Amends, Illusionist.</P> <P>The tank would need.</P> <P>Swashbuckler, Assassin, Coercer, Dirge, and a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ing prayer.</P><p>Message Edited by xMiLoSiSx on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:03 AM</span>

[Gareorn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mazrik85 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Heh ill assume most of you have noticed that Lockeye hasnt returned to this thread since his last comment right?  <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I've also notice that no one else has returned to this thread since their last comment.  And now it's catching on everywhere.  Threads all over the ineternet are filled with people not returning after their last comments.  How spooky is that?  Someone call Art Bell.:smileytongue:<BR>

[Yunga_511]

Allies: (00:59) 16944113 | 8561.96 [HH Chuck Norris-Round House Kick to the Face-9999999999]<BR>quill 279 | 3899407 | 5783.41  (me, Necromancer FTW)<BR>Some dude on Drugs 421 | 1438158 | 1256.14 (a Assassin Cross with a bunny)<BR>My mom 30 | 1329941 | 1134.23 (wizard 2)<BR>your mom 260 | 999558 | 1045.76 (nother necro)<BR>His mom 479 | 923540 | 967.04 (brusier)<BR>Chuck Norris 124 | 855165 | 875.42 (ranger)<BR>Chuck Norris's mom 16 | 761290 | 845.81 (coercer)<BR>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mazrik85 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Heh ill assume most of you have noticed that Lockeye hasnt returned to this thread since his last comment right?  Sadly he doesnt have to justify his data or himself to anyone here regardless of how right or wrong he may be.  He says he has the data that shows Rangers are ok, and as a Developer Im pretty sure thats all he needs to simply forget about this thread heh.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yea, that's awesome of him to do.  Make most of the population that plays rangers all [Removed for Content] off and then not come back and say anything else for days.  Outstanding of him.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote: <DIV>Funny you call yourself a "great" Bruiser even though you just recently started playing the class.   You can't even put yourself in the same playing field as Warling, he is one of the best Bruisers WW and has been playing the class since release.  Warling is beyond a "Good" Bruiser, a better one then you'll ever be. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Aside from like three CA's bruiser is the monk class, which I played since before release.  Its not like it takes years to learn the difference between monk and bruiser CAs and the achievements are the same.</P> <P>As for your idol Warling, I'm sure he is good.  However not many bruisers had the day to day role of secondary tank like I did in Amend and most are used to standing behind the mob like pansies just spamming CAs (or in your bruisers case didn't she just mainly solo and duel because she was unguilded)?</P> <P>Obviously I'm just said I never got invited to your uber bruiser chat channel. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:39 AM</span>

[Colossaltitan]

<DIV>So, because you got to tank a few mobs, that makes you a great Bruiser and Warling a good Bruiser?<BR>How do you know what Warling did or didn't tank for Second Dawn?<BR><BR>Gaige, who built up all that ego for you?  Let me give you some more, I don't think you have enough as it is.<BR><BR>Again, your not even in the same playing field as Warling, enjoy your Dirge.  I'm sure Amend will just crumble apart now that your uber Brawler god-like-self isn't there to guide them through the dark.<BR><BR>And, as for taking the personal shots at me, Umm go for it?  I know that I was a sub-par Bruiser compared to most out there I accept that, unlike you who thinks he's probably the best Dirge WW already because he's been playing one for a few months. God I wish I was cool like you.  I"ve said this a few times but since you apparently can't hear all that well, the Bruiser world-wide channel was just a continuation of Lizardling's, not my own.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:22 PM</span>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>So, because you got to tank a few mobs, that makes you a great Bruiser and Warling a good Bruiser?<BR>How do you know what Warling did or didn't tank for Second Dawn?<BR><BR>Gaige, who built up all that ego for you?  Let me give you some more, I don't think you have enough as it is.<BR><BR>Again, your not even in the same playing field as Warling, enjoy your Dirge.  I'm sure Amend will just crumble apart now that your uber Brawler god-like-self isn't there to guide them through the dark.<BR><BR>And, as for taking the personal shots at me, Umm go for it?  I know that I was a sub-par Bruiser compared to most out there I accept that, unlike you who thinks he's probably the best Dirge WW already because he's been playing one for a few months. God I wish I was cool like you.  The Bruiser world-wide channel was just a continuation of Lizardling's, not my own.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on <SPAN class=date_text>07-30-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:18 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey, guess what?  NONE of what you just wrote has ANYTHING to do with this thread.  Let's try to keep it constructive, eh?  You didn't say [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about rangers, it's obvious you only want to try to one up Gaige, and noone but you cares.  Thanks.

[Colossaltitan]

Hmm, I do recall Gaige starting things with his usual "Oh I'm uber, and your not you'll suck without me." attitude.<BR><BR>But whatever, back to the ranger parses.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>So, because you got to tank a few mobs, that makes you a great Bruiser and Warling a good Bruiser?<BR>How do you know what Warling did or didn't tank for Second Dawn?  <FONT color=#ffff00>I asked his mom.</FONT><BR><BR>Gaige, who built up all that ego for you?  Let me give you some more, I don't think you have enough as it is.  <FONT color=#ffff00>My ego derives mostly from the nacho girl at Taco Bell.  She says I'm the best brawler she's ever known.  The wink I get lets me know she is for real.</FONT><BR><BR>Again, your not even in the same playing field as Warling, enjoy your Dirge.  I'm sure Amend will just crumble apart now that your uber Brawler god-like-self isn't there to guide them through the dark.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I never said they'd fall apart.  They'll keep doing what they're doing.  /shrug.  I do enjoy my dirge.  Do you enjoy your necro?  Its funny you aren't here talking about how your bruiser is better than mine, since that would be a better comparison.  We both stopped playing our bruisers to play other classes that our new guilds needed more.  Correct?</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh and if you're saying I'm a crappy bruiser since I didn't play bruiser very long, then I'm sure you're a crappy necro.  If playing a class from release is required to be "great" at it, then obviously you're lacking the proper fundamentals too.  But that never stopped you from acting like you were A#1 bruiser in the forums, now did it?  No.  You even made some super secret raid bruiser only channel for uber bruisers (at your discretion) when you were unguilded.</FONT><BR>And, as for taking the personal shots at me, Umm go for it?  I know that I was a sub-par Bruiser compared to most out there I accept that, unlike you who thinks he's probably the best Dirge WW already because he's been playing one for a few months. God I wish I was cool like you.  The Bruiser world-wide channel was just a continuation of Lizardling's, not my own. <FONT color=#ffff00> I know it was a continuation of Lizardlings.  However, Lizardling (and Jezekiel) unlike you actually contributed to the community instead of just rewriting others posts and getting them stickied and taking credit for them, like you did.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Nah I'm a crappy dirge, I said as much in the dirge forums.  I don't claim to be some uber godsend dirge.  I just play buff songs and debuff the mob and stand around and watch my guild kill stuff.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm glad you know you were sub-par though, it'd suck to be in denial.  However unlike you I'm not sub-par; I'm awesome.  Everyone thinks so, and if they don't thier opinion sucks and doesn't matter anyway.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[MystaSkrat]

Also, I know it sounds really dumb for me, of all people, to say not to try and derail a thread, but this one is actually pretty important, I'd like to keep personal stuff out of it if at all possible (I know, it's probably not).   And Gaige was responding to Cracatoa IIRC

[MystaSkrat]

Gaige you're not helping damnit!

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> Hey, guess what?  I TOTALLY love Gaige.  Let's try to keep it constructive, eh?  You didn't say anything nice about Gaige, even though it's obvious you only want to love Gaige, but he doesn't care.  I'm sorry. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Awwww <3  Sorry I'm done.</P> <P>Seriously though, as I posted previously in this thread:  Rangers need help.  Ax didn't stop playing his ranger to play a zerker out of choice.  AFAIK he loves his ranger.</P> <P>All these parses from the real uber guilds aren't wrong.</P> <P>Oh and I believe Khalan when it comes to ranger issues.  Khalan is leet.  Listen to Khalan.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> Hey, guess what?  I TOTALLY love Gaige.  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Awwww <3<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Um, you wish I said that...</P> <P>Seriously, where is Layla and this 3 Princes parse broken down, or Amend's DT parse from last night?  I thought we were gonna get to see it :smileysad:</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <P>Seriously, where is Layla and this 3 Princes parse broken down, or Amend's DT parse from last night?  I thought we were gonna get to see it :smileysad:</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dunno.  They have two rangers so I'd like to see the parse also.  I'm especially interested in seeing how Layla fairs agaisnt their conj and necro - because I know one of their assassins quit or something.<BR>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Oh and I believe Khalan when it comes to ranger issues.  Khalan is leet.  Listen to Khalan.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is true. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Anyways yeah, I didn't swap mains because I hate rangers, I love my ranger more than gaige loves nacho's. But She's just a [Removed for Content] and not only that but a bloody hard to play [Removed for Content] at that. The amount of effort a ranger has to expend just to get to the top of a parser isn't even worth the trouble, I'd rather play a brigand and do more dps plus increase my raids dps by 20%.</P> <P>Like honestly, why would anyone pick a ranger over brigand?</P> <P>Oh wait, they need rangers for Miracle Arrows!<IMG src="http://members.cox.net/pimpbot9000/lollerskates.gif"><BR></P>

[ChaosUndivided]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> Also, I know it sounds really dumb for me <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No such thing! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Nainitsuj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <P>Come on Guys, it's obvious Lockeye is able to observe some really uber rangers.</P> <P>We all just suck and should just Learn2 Play.</P> <P>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <SPAN class=date_text>07-28-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:00 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactly.  I'm glad one of you rangers finally figured it out.

[LoreLady]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nainitsuj wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ChaosUndivided wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <p>Come on Guys, it's obvious Lockeye is able to observe some really uber rangers.</p> <p>We all just suck and should just Learn2 Play.</p> <p>Message Edited by ChaosUndivided on <span class="date_text">07-28-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:00 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote>Exactly.  I'm glad one of you rangers finally figured it out.<hr></blockquote>Funny thing, majority of people arent rangers that are posting this stuff. Soooo.. Whats that telling ya?</div>

[Ixnay]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChaosUndivided wrote:<BR> <P>Anyways yeah, I didn't swap mains because I hate rangers, I love my ranger more than gaige loves nacho's. But She's just a [Removed for Content] and not only that but a bloody hard to play [Removed for Content] at that. The amount of effort a ranger has to expend just to get to the top of a parser isn't even worth the trouble, I'd rather play a brigand and do more dps plus increase my raids dps by 20%.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I feel exactly this way about my SK. </P> <P>Unfortunately, what keeps deficiencies about both these classes from being taken seriously by devs is the polarization of each community.  How can a dev fix a class when members of the class can't even agree whether it works properly?</P> <P>Both the ranger and SK classes will always have a few outspoken people in denial of the problems with these classes.  No matter what you show or say, a few will always stand up and say, "I don't know what you guys are talking about.  This class is perfectly fine, and I'm a shining example of L337ness when I play this class.  It's not this class that has the problem, it's you or your sucky guild, raid, or guildmates that have the problem.  Stop blaming your inferiority and problems on EQ2, and blame them on the fact that you just suck instead."</P> <P>Unfortunately, these people's pride and identity are based on their class, and that makes them unwilling or unable to even consider the truth about their class.</P> <P>These players who completely deny the fact of any problem with SKs and rangers are suffering from simple denial based on pride.  If you had only one level 70 toon that you invested your entire EQ2 career into, how many would be willing to admit that toon sucked? </P> <P>A good many people can't even consider this possibility, because to them this would be an admission that they suck also.  What they need to realize is that they don't necessarily suck, even if their main character does.  It is not their fault that their toon is underpowered and lacks basic functionality and utility skills.</P> <P>The point many of us are attempting to make in this post is that no matter how good a ranger is as a player, it would be impossible for them to consistently outparse an assassin, conjuror, or many other classes on equally well geared and spelled toons played by equally skilled and alert and motivated players.  Very unfortunately, it is impossible for us to prove that to you and get it through your thick skulls without a side by side parse on the same mobs in the same raid at the same time.</P> <P>And that my friends, is why SKs and rangers will always suck as a class.  The communities will always be polarized by those who know the truth based on experience and comparison with other classes, and those who are just in denial of the truth or who are unable to distinguish between raiding dps and exp group dps.</P> <P>I frankly think the best thing to do is just give up, this seems like a total waste of my time.</P> <P> </P>

[Shoenasty]

<P>Well,  I think rangers do need a bit of dps increase myself.  I parse alot of guild raids and our assassin ( my wife )beats me almost every time.  Assassin usually does around 1100 - 1400 while I'm only doing approx 800 - 1000 avg.  I have fabled bow and plenty of fabled gear also and couple masters but mostly adept 3 CA's.  She has same gear basically and same CA's being mostly adept 3's.</P> <P>I've tried every mixture of close melee/ranged attack/sweet spot and so forth.  Changed my AA's all around and now I'm with agil and int lines having poise and 8 points into crits for both lines.  I think I'm doing my peak DPS now days and I'm giving it all I got just to get those number above with some spikes over 1k every now and then when my AE's are up and there are multiple mobs on the encounter.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm constantly getting beat on DPS by conj, swash, assassin mostly.  Our guardian MT beats me sometimes but that's because of all the buffs and procs he gets on him for tanking.  I can say that I love my ranger reguardless,  BUT,  we are not top dps by far and could use a bump.   On top of that,  we dont get a hate distributing buff to put on group members or a poison proc to group members like the assassins do that are constantly beating us on DPS also.  So the biggest problem I'm seeing is that we need slight bump in DPS and couple group buffs of some sort to make us more appealable to groups and raids.  Our DPS is not the best and we offer no group buffs at all.  If,  and I say IF,  all we can do is DPS.......then give us better DPS than assassin, conj, swash for crying out loud.  Every one of those classes can beat us easily and they also offer group buffs to the table.</P> <P> </P> <P>Balance is still needed here.</P> <P> </P> <P>As far as Skaer posted,  there is no way that's happening.  I don't come close to those parses nor does 99% of the remainder of ranger community.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vorlon 70 ranger unrest</P>

[Dirtgirl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ixnay wrote:<BR> <P>If you had only one level 70 toon that you invested your entire EQ2 career into, how many would be willing to admit that toon sucked? </P> <P>A good many people can't even consider this possibility, because to them this would be an admission that they suck also.  What they need to realize is that they don't necessarily suck, even if their main character does.  It is not their fault that their toon is underpowered and lacks basic functionality and utility skills.</P> <P>The point many of us are attempting to make in this post is that no matter how good a ranger is as a player, it would be impossible for them to consistently outparse an assassin, conjuror, or many other classes on equally well geared and spelled toons played by equally skilled and alert and motivated players.  Very unfortunately, it is impossible for us to prove that to you and get it through your thick skulls without a side by side parse on the same mobs in the same raid at the same time.</P> <P>And that my friends, is why SKs and rangers will always suck as a class.  The communities will always be polarized by those who know the truth based on experience and comparison with other classes, and those who are just in denial of the truth or who are unable to distinguish between raiding dps and exp group dps.</P> <P>I frankly think the best thing to do is just give up, this seems like a total waste of my time.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>:smileysad:<BR>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Ixnay wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> ChaosUndivided wrote: <div></div> <p>Anyways yeah, I didn't swap mains because I hate rangers, I love my ranger more than gaige loves nacho's. But She's just a [Removed for Content] and not only that but a bloody hard to play [Removed for Content] at that. The amount of effort a ranger has to expend just to get to the top of a parser isn't even worth the trouble, I'd rather play a brigand and do more dps plus increase my raids dps by 20%.</p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I feel exactly this way about my SK. </p> <p>Unfortunately, what keeps deficiencies about both these classes from being taken seriously by devs is the polarization of each community.  How can a dev fix a class when members of the class can't even agree whether it works properly?</p> <p>Both the ranger and SK classes will always have a few outspoken people in denial of the problems with these classes.  No matter what you show or say, a few will always stand up and say, "I don't know what you guys are talking about.  This class is perfectly fine, and I'm a shining example of L337ness when I play this class.  It's not this class that has the problem, it's you or your sucky guild, raid, or guildmates that have the problem.  Stop blaming your inferiority and problems on EQ2, and blame them on the fact that you just suck instead."</p> <p>Unfortunately, these people's pride and identity are based on their class, and that makes them unwilling or unable to even consider the truth about their class.</p> <p>These players who completely deny the fact of any problem with SKs and rangers are suffering from simple denial based on pride.  If you had only one level 70 toon that you invested your entire EQ2 career into, how many would be willing to admit that toon sucked? </p> <p>A good many people can't even consider this possibility, because to them this would be an admission that they suck also.  What they need to realize is that they don't necessarily suck, even if their main character does.  It is not their fault that their toon is underpowered and lacks basic functionality and utility skills.</p> <p>The point many of us are attempting to make in this post is that no matter how good a ranger is as a player, it would be impossible for them to consistently outparse an assassin, conjuror, or many other classes on equally well geared and spelled toons played by equally skilled and alert and motivated players.  Very unfortunately, it is impossible for us to prove that to you and get it through your thick skulls without a side by side parse on the same mobs in the same raid at the same time.  <font color="#ff00cc">The title of this thread was "be honest, where are you on the parsings?," and a direct request was made that a ranger in a top raiding guild like SD (which was specifically mentioned) post some zone-wide numbers.  I posted the most recent parse from Lab, DT, and Lyceum.  We have plenty of skilled, alert and motivated players or we wouldn't be as successful as we are, and the only time in that sample that I was out-parsed by a class that shouldn't outparse (according to those dps tiers)  was by a necro, and only in lyceum.</font></p><p></p> <p>And that my friends, is why SKs and rangers will always suck as a class.  The communities will always be polarized by those who know the truth based on experience and comparison with other classes, and those who are just in denial of the truth or who are unable to distinguish between raiding dps and exp group dps.</p> <p>I frankly think the best thing to do is just give up, this seems like a total waste of my time.</p> <hr></blockquote>I'm in a great guild with great players that kill everything that has been killed in this game, and I am able to perform my job as I believe it is intended.  I do solid tier 1 dps consistently over the course of a raid, without little to no chance of pulling aggro.  I can siphon hate off of the assassins/brigands/whoever else in my group and make it just disappear, and drop a 30% hate buff on the MT every 30 seconds.  In all honesty and humility I don't believe that the Ranger class sucks.I do agree that ranger's have become more difficult to play, I do agree that it is absurdly difficult to get a decent bow.  Until I got Baz'kul, having enough arrows in my bags became an all-consuming full-time hassle, and it takes all the gear we can get to get our Str up to what a brigand can do with their self-buff (finally broke 500 self-buffed friday).  My opinion is (and I think Layla would agree) that in the end game a ranger can catch up and fit their role very nicely.  I've seen a score of posts on this thread on others claiming that "top-end guild rangers say rangers are broken."  I never said we are broken, and I consider my guild top-quality.P.S.: I eat bards for breakfast.</div><p>Message Edited by Ranvarenaya on <span class=date_text>07-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:53 PM</span>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<P>After going over the ranger #'s it would seem the easiest way to give rangers a 2kdps potential would be to lower the recast timer of snipershot to 45 seconds.</P> <P>with full masters fabled bow and the best arrows that would make the ranger's dps about even with the other t1 dps classes (summoners, and sorcerors, and assasins)</P> <P> </P>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>lower the recast timer of snipershot to 45 seconds.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>15 minutes to 45 seconds seems a little extreme.

[Drainlo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>After going over the ranger #'s it would seem the easiest way to give rangers a 2kdps potential would be to lower the recast timer of snipershot to 45 seconds.</P> <P>with full masters fabled bow and the best arrows that would make the ranger's dps about even with the other t1 dps classes (summoners, and sorcerors, and assasins)</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>a shorter timer on sniper shot would be nice, then i would remember i actually have that bow shot and use it more than 1-3 times a week.</P>

[MystaSkrat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>I've seen a score of posts on this thread on others claiming that "top-end guild rangers say rangers are broken."  I never said we are broken, and I consider my guild top-quality.<BR><BR><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My only question is, do you and Khalan ever talk in the game or anything?  Because you seem to have pretty differing opinions here, and you're in the same guild.

[Pins]

<DIV>That still wouldn't allow rangers to hit 2k dps.  I mean, sure they'll get a 10k hit, but that won't improve them up to the 2k level at all if made into a 45s recast.  The huge problem with sniper shot isn't so much the recast, but the cast time.  I mean a 10k hit on a 5s cast time, means it adds only ~2k-dps for the 5 seconds of casting.  Which means, they'd still need to be able to hit 2k dps for the rest of the time, which is something they can't do.  Thus lowering the recast would increase their dps, but would not give them enough dps to hit 2k dps, except on a multi-target fight.</DIV>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>That still wouldn't allow rangers to hit 2k dps.  I mean, sure they'll get a 10k hit, but that won't improve them up to the 2k level at all if made into a 45s recast.  The huge problem with sniper shot isn't so much the recast, but the cast time.  I mean a 10k hit on a 5s cast time, means it adds only ~2k-dps for the 5 seconds of casting.  Which means, they'd still need to be able to hit 2k dps for the rest of the time, which is something they can't do.  Thus lowering the recast would increase their dps, but would not give them enough dps to hit 2k dps, except on a multi-target fight.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>it wouldn't allow them to consistantly do 2k dps, but it would allow for enough of a spike to use it at least 2x on most fights and 3x on longer ones.</P> <P>I dont think this change will overpower the ranger class but something small like this would make a huge impact on the parsings.  I think if they started with this change and then we all go out and parse for a week or 2 to see how much of an impact it would do (about 150-200 more zone dps than they currently do with this small change by my #s) it may put rangers in between wizards and assasins and conj which is where I think they should fall dont you agree?</P>

[Ranvarenaya]

<div><blockquote><hr>Pinski wrote:<div>That still wouldn't allow rangers to hit 2k dps.  I mean, sure they'll get a 10k hit, but that won't improve them up to the 2k level at all if made into a 45s recast.  The huge problem with sniper shot isn't so much the recast, but the cast time.  I mean a 10k hit on a 5s cast time, means it adds only ~2k-dps for the 5 seconds of casting.  Which means, they'd still need to be able to hit 2k dps for the rest of the time, which is something they can't do.  Thus lowering the recast would increase their dps, but would not give them enough dps to hit 2k dps, except on a multi-target fight.</div><hr></blockquote>Right on the money on this one, sniper's shot doesn't do all that much for us.  Rain of Arrows is our really big dps spike, and our highest dps for a single target is  Ranger's Blade, a melee attack.  I know there is a perception of rangers as being able to drop big burst dps, but I don't see it as such.  Just like Sniper's shot, the rest of our big bow attacks have lengthened cast-times proportional to the damage, so we don't really get big burst except for in an ae fight when we can get Rain and Selection and cash in on multiple targets.  Other than that it's a matter of using everything we have, getting Ranger's Blade and Emberstrike in every time they are up, and always getting back to ranged-auto as quickly as possible to maximize our offensive stance proc.  Dps boost and procs are huge, as 30% or more of my dps comes from ranged auto-attack.In an ae fight i can start big, but before long I level off to a single target dps level that I can maintain indefinitely.  In an individual parse lasting very long I'll be humbled by several different classes; anyone with Ice Nova, Decapitate, or other big-spike abilities.  Spread the numbers out over the course of a raid however, and there I am near the top.  I can plug away at a consistent number on virtually every encounter, stay alive, and rack up some numbers.I use subliminal messages to repeatedly tell Khalan that rangers are weenies, because if he switches back away from his inquisitor I'll be without any dps buff.</div>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MystaSkratch wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IllusiveThoughts wrote:<BR> <P>lower the recast timer of snipershot to 45 seconds.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>15 minutes to 45 seconds seems a little extreme.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>but with one single change the ranger class goes from 2nd rate citizen to t1 dps.  isnt' that what this thread is about?

[Prandtl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LoreLady wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>Funny thing, majority of people arent rangers that are posting this stuff. Soooo.. Whats that telling ya?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>It means we're out leveling our alts<BR>

[IllusiveThoughts]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ranvarenaya wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinski wrote:<BR> <DIV>That still wouldn't allow rangers to hit 2k dps.  I mean, sure they'll get a 10k hit, but that won't improve them up to the 2k level at all if made into a 45s recast.  The huge problem with sniper shot isn't so much the recast, but the cast time.  I mean a 10k hit on a 5s cast time, means it adds only ~2k-dps for the 5 seconds of casting.  Which means, they'd still need to be able to hit 2k dps for the rest of the time, which is something they can't do.  Thus lowering the recast would increase their dps, but would not give them enough dps to hit 2k dps, except on a multi-target fight.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Right on the money on this one, sniper's shot doesn't do all that much for us.  Rain of Arrows is our really big dps spike, and our highest dps for a single target is  Ranger's Blade, a melee attack.  I know there is a perception of rangers as being able to drop big burst dps, but I don't see it as such.  Just like Sniper's shot, the rest of our big bow attacks have lengthened cast-times proportional to the damage, so we don't really get big burst except for in an ae fight when we can get Rain and Selection and cash in on multiple targets.  Other than that it's a matter of using everything we have, getting Ranger's Blade and Emberstrike in every time they are up, and always getting back to ranged-auto as quickly as possible to maximize our offensive stance proc.  Dps boost and procs are huge, as 30% or more of my dps comes from ranged auto-attack.<BR><BR>In an ae fight i can start big, but before long I level off to a single target dps level that I can maintain indefinitely.  In an individual parse lasting very long I'll be humbled by several different classes; anyone with Ice Nova, Decapitate, or other big-spike abilities.  Spread the numbers out over the course of a raid however, and there I am near the top.  I can plug away at a consistent number on virtually every encounter, stay alive, and rack up some numbers.<BR><BR>I use subliminal messages to repeatedly tell Khalan that rangers are weenies, because if he switches back away from his inquisitor I'll be without any dps buff.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>increasing the aoe dps for rangers would begin to put rangers in the same aoe boat as warlocks, who require more hate reduction than even I as a wizard do to stay alive, would you really want those problems?</P>