Paladin MT in raids

strider19 · 05-10-2006, 10:52 PM

I have never played a paladin to end game, but atm I'm lvl 47 on the PvP server and I have full out fabled/legendary gear. I'm somewhere around 3800 hp unbuffed, and I forget my mitigation for the first time ever lol. Anyway, I cank tank better than any guard I've seen my own level, in perma I handle lvl 50^^^ in multitudes with no crowd control. What I want to know is, why (other than having more taunts) do guards always MT in raids (from what I've heard). Will I ever be the MT in my guild? Or will I just be some useless extra buff to the guards mitigation? I want to be the one tanking dragons and the one known as the MT, not some guard:p I've raided end game in many other games but no EQ2, usually in other games it's always the warrior who tanks, and the other tanks are kinda useless, was wondering if its' different in eq2.

Pathin Merrithay · 05-10-2006, 11:27 PM

This topic has been covered ad nauseum in threads throughout these boards by this point. Short answer? No. Long answer? You will almost always take a backseat to a similarly equipped guardian in a raid. You can be awesome at fighting groups, but raiding is an experience well above and beyond any standard grouping situation. Yes, you may be able to... Paladins -can- take just about any end-game mob with the right strategies, gear and appropriate level. A Guardian just does it more efficiently and with a greater success rate.

SirRock · 05-10-2006, 11:49 PM

Pathin Merrithay wrote:

This topic has been covered ad nauseum in threads throughout these boards by this point. Short answer? No. Long answer? You will almost always take a backseat to a similarly equipped guardian in a raid. You can be awesome at fighting groups, but raiding is an experience well above and beyond any standard grouping situation. Yes, you may be able to... Paladins -can- take just about any end-game mob with the right strategies, gear and appropriate level. A Guardian just does it more efficiently and with a greater success rate.

Well said.

Leawyn · 05-11-2006, 12:03 AM

I did my first MT stint ever as a pally (previously raided as a Necro, only recently started raiding as Pally) and while I thought I was going to throw up the entire time (i was nervous as heck lol!) it was exciting and thrilling to be toe to toe with those mobs. Not sure i can do that all the time though! I had a mental and emotional "crash" after the adrenaline wore off, and ended up in bed a good 2 hours earlier than normal.

And yes, I did MT over the 2 zerkers in my guild (we have no guards atm) who normally MT. We tried a new strat, with me and a monk in MT group. I put amends on the monk for agro, and he kept his avoidance buff on me. Worked out fantastic.

Iustus · 05-11-2006, 03:09 AM

The way things are currently balanced, paladins simply cannot MT the hardest encounters in the game.

SOE tunes these encounters to be very difficult, almost impossible, with a berzerker or guardian tank.

This makes them impossible with a paladin tank, paladins will just get hit for too much.

The difference between having a mob hit you every hit for 2k and every hit for 7k is not that much mitigation.

Warriors are going to be able to get their mitigation high enough to get those 2k hits, while paladins will max out still getting hit at the 7k hits.

Not to mention lower avoidance as well.

It's all well and good to talk about wards and heals, but none of that matters when 2 hits from the mob kills you.

This is not EQ1 where the actual mitigation of the damage of the max hit of a mob was relatively small,and you could have even wizards MT mobs if they were well geared enough. In EQ2, mobs max hit might be 15k, which gets mitigated by a paladin to 7k and a warrior to 2k.

Mitigation of damage is the primary factor in success in tanking a raid mob. Holding agro is a very distant second.

The fact of the matter is that any encounter that a paladin can MT will be a trivial encounter with a warrior MT using the same gear. Since SOE doesnt not want to make trivial encounters, the only time paladins are going to be MTing is when the raid is killing something that is already an easy encounter for them, below their ability and gear.

On raids, paladins are a dps and healing class, not tanks.

As far as 'off tank', I do not think most people are using this term in the way I understand it. Off tank is not someone who buffs the tank with buffs. Off tank should be someone that actually tanks secondary mobs, but once again, this is not the role of the paladin. Most of the time, the best route is to just have the one tank tank everything, because you just dont have enough healers to do anything else. Either the mobs hit for almost nothing, in which case having the MT tank them is no greater burden, or the mobs hit for a ton, in which case, a paladin isnt going to be tanking them.

-I

uzhiel feathered serpe · 05-11-2006, 03:34 AM

I do agree that Guardians can tank slightly better than Paladins. I will respectfully disagree with Lustus in terms of Bers.

Tanking IMO goes like this:

Guard > Paly > Ber > SK > Bruiser > Monk.

Nothing but love for ya, Lustus! :smileytongue:

MeridianR · 05-11-2006, 04:43 AM

/wave UzhielHow you been bro SMILEY

A good Paladin will be better then a subpar Guardian anyday....they might have better buffs then us, but we can still hold our own if needed ....

Leawyn · 05-11-2006, 06:15 AM

Iustus wrote:

The way things are currently balanced, paladins simply cannot MT the hardest encounters in the game.
[snip]
The fact of the matter is that any encounter that a paladin can MT will be a trivial encounter with a warrior MT using the same gear. Since SOE doesnt not want to make trivial encounters, the only time paladins are going to be MTing is when the raid is killing something that is already an easy encounter for them, below their ability and gear.
-I

I wouldn't go so far as to say that because a pally can MT, it automatically makes it trivial for a warrior. It is usually easier to use a guardian, but that doesn't mean that using any of the other tanks means the encounter is trivial.

Hakan · 05-11-2006, 06:31 AM

No matter how many times this topic comes up, it will always draw commentary. Ha! I know Guardians have better mitigation than Paladins, but is the difference really that vast? Just because a Paladin can't MT the most powerful 2-3 mobs in the entire game does not mean they are not a viable raid tank for the vast majority of material. If I am way off base, it is because of my inexperience...

Hakanek

Xan · 05-11-2006, 12:58 PM

Im sorry.. but to say a paladin "can't" tank something.. is a lie.. Ive seen first hand and done it myself in some situations.. any one of the plate tank classes can tank anything.. Im not saying its always graceful lol. but It can happen.. and as far as the mitigation difference.. sorry dude.. its not that huge.. In all actuality... its the avoidance thats bigger.. due to guards havin that group defense buff.. which raises your overall avoidance.. Ive seen the comparisons of guards/zerkers/pallies/sks at high end with fabled and and all that crap.. and the difference in mitigation and avoidance isnt that big... 2k to 7k... thats called bein a drama queen lol.. Im not saying the guardian cant handle it better... but not so much better that a paladin cant be an option.. End story?.. Only thing the guards and zerkers really have over pallies and sks... is the short duration mitigation boosts they can give.. and if handled correctly.. that can be balanced if a pally or sk is tankin if everyone knows what their doin.. Each plate tank has their pro's and con's... ALL classes.. have their pro's and con's.. but a good player can utilize the pro's to overshadow the con's.. dont rely so much on the class as you do the player.. cause a uber geared person can be shown up by a well skilled player anyday..

Turb · 05-11-2006, 02:14 PM

Hang on.For 15K to mitigate to 2K, that's 87% mitigation. Isn't it capped below that?I'd also like to know why pally mitigation on a raid is limited to 53%, which is 7K damage from a 15K hit.I'd have though the difference was more a few percent and maybe 500-1K per hit, which of course does add up. Is it really as wide as 53% vs 87%?

Kale · 05-11-2006, 08:48 PM

The real problem isn't that we can't tank raid mobs (because we can), it is that we're battling perception in addition to everything else. When EQ2 started the Guardian was the clear favorite for raid tanking. The game has been tweaked here and there, with LU13 changing things significantly. Paladins are much better raid tanks now than we were when the game launched. But after a year of everyone having Guardians tank, the perception is that Paladins cannot. And we don't help ourselves out much. We're a very versatile class. You can specialize a Paladin a number of different ways. You can go for offensive firepower (lots of STr, big power pool, high damage with CA's and spells), healing/warding (high STR/WIS for biggest power pool, utilizing Flowing Thought equipment and minstration gear), or you can outfit for tanking (high STA/Hit points, Master hate spells). Because of this specialization people see a lot of different Paladins and styles of play. When people group with Paladins it's a crapshoot - they could get any one of the builds. If they get a person who has built their Paladin to be an off-tank, offensive tank or healing tank then they aren't going to see what a true MT Paladin can do. I can't count the number of times I've grouped with people in a pickup situation and they wanted someone else to tank because I'm a Paladin. But someone smart in the group almost always does an /inspection. They see my stats and compare to the other tanks, even some Guardians, and they go, "Wait, let the Paladin tank!" People who are stat savvy know that gear and stats make a huge difference. The comparison people always use here is, "If a Guardian and a Paladin have the same equipment..." But the reality is they rarely have the same equipment! And just because an item has the Fabled tag on it doesn't mean it's automatically a great item for a tank that wants to be raid MT. You have to focus on the stats that make you a great raid MT, like STA, Mitigation and HP. I see so many Paladins running around with STR/INT/WIS on major Fabled pieces because they think the Fabled makes them elite. But to my main point - we're battling perception. People think a Guardian is always better. They think a Berserker is always better. These perceptions, true or not, have become a sort of twisted reality. I was on a Rhaotep raid a week ago and I was invited by guildmates because they needed a plate tank. Then a Berserker (same levle) shows up late and says he's tanking. He tells me He's got 4,100 mitigation and so he should tank over me. I /inspected him and guess what I found? He was lying. He had 3,500 mitigation (200 less than me) and about 500 hit points less than me (before raid buffs). His mitigation percentage was around 57% and mine was around 59% for same level. Perception. We're battling it. People use it against us. Heck, some Guardians and Berserkers think that just because they are a Guardian or Berserker than automatically makes them superior to a Paladin without taking gear or stats into account. People like to think in "ideal" situational terms. Yes, if you had a Guardian and a Paladin in identical gear, identically equipped (never happens) and they had both put their traits/trainings/stat selections into the same stuff, then your Guardian is going to be better suited for a raid MT. Those conditions never exist. Paladins can MT raid content. Maybe it's not as easy (and we all know we could use a little love in that department), but we can do it. We're not paper mache. But unlike the Guardian, a Paladin has to be built for it. You have to put all of your focus and effort into being a raid MT. You have to get the right gear, select the right traits, etc. If you don't do those things you will never measure up. And then you have to sucessfully battle the perception of being a Paladin.

Leawyn · 05-11-2006, 09:27 PM

Kalera wrote:

The real problem isn't that we can't tank raid mobs (because we can), it is that we're battling perception in addition to everything else.

When EQ2 started the Guardian was the clear favorite for raid tanking. The game has been tweaked here and there, with LU13 changing things significantly. Paladins are much better raid tanks now than we were when the game launched.

But after a year of everyone having Guardians tank, the perception is that Paladins cannot.

And we don't help ourselves out much. We're a very versatile class. You can specialize a Paladin a number of different ways. You can go for offensive firepower (lots of STr, big power pool, high damage with CA's and spells), healing/warding (high STR/WIS for biggest power pool, utilizing Flowing Thought equipment and minstration gear), or you can outfit for tanking (high STA/Hit points, Master hate spells). Because of this specialization people see a lot of different Paladins and styles of play.

When people group with Paladins it's a crapshoot - they could get any one of the builds. If they get a person who has built their Paladin to be an off-tank, offensive tank or healing tank then they aren't going to see what a true MT Paladin can do. I can't count the number of times I've grouped with people in a pickup situation and they wanted someone else to tank because I'm a Paladin. But someone smart in the group almost always does an /inspection. They see my stats and compare to the other tanks, even some Guardians, and they go, "Wait, let the Paladin tank!" People who are stat savvy know that gear and stats make a huge difference.

The comparison people always use here is, "If a Guardian and a Paladin have the same equipment..." But the reality is they rarely have the same equipment! And just because an item has the Fabled tag on it doesn't mean it's automatically a great item for a tank that wants to be raid MT. You have to focus on the stats that make you a great raid MT, like STA, Mitigation and HP. I see so many Paladins running around with STR/INT/WIS on major Fabled pieces because they think the Fabled makes them elite.

But to my main point - we're battling perception. People think a Guardian is always better. They think a Berserker is always better. These perceptions, true or not, have become a sort of twisted reality. I was on a Rhaotep raid a week ago and I was invited by guildmates because they needed a plate tank. Then a Berserker (same levle) shows up late and says he's tanking. He tells me He's got 4,100 mitigation and so he should tank over me. I /inspected him and guess what I found? He was lying. He had 3,500 mitigation (200 less than me) and about 500 hit points less than me (before raid buffs). His mitigation percentage was around 57% and mine was around 59% for same level.

Perception. We're battling it. People use it against us. Heck, some Guardians and Berserkers think that just because they are a Guardian or Berserker than automatically makes them superior to a Paladin without taking gear or stats into account.

People like to think in "ideal" situational terms. Yes, if you had a Guardian and a Paladin in identical gear, identically equipped (never happens) and they had both put their traits/trainings/stat selections into the same stuff, then your Guardian is going to be better suited for a raid MT.

Those conditions never exist.

Paladins can MT raid content. Maybe it's not as easy (and we all know we could use a little love in that department), but we can do it. We're not paper mache. But unlike the Guardian, a Paladin has to be built for it. You have to put all of your focus and effort into being a raid MT. You have to get the right gear, select the right traits, etc. If you don't do those things you will never measure up.

And then you have to sucessfully battle the perception of being a Paladin.

I think Steel has another Pally to battle for my affections..... This is an excellently written post and I will be referring to it in future disagreements about what a Pally can and cannot do!

Gornd · 05-11-2006, 09:34 PM

I'm the main tank for Legacy on Unrest. Heres the general breakdown (Assume fabled gear for the MT class): Mitigation: 1) For yellow con mobs mitigation is pretty easily capped with an assortment of raid setups, potions, gear, etc. 2) For orange con mobs Guardians excell due to an assortment of temporary mitigation buffs. Since there is a large Mit penalty on orange con mobs, this extra mitigation makes a big difference. Avoidance: 1) Defense hardcap is 420. Easily maxed by any fighter class on a raid. 2) Parry hardcap is 420. Easily maxed if you are a Guardian and have a Dirge in the MT group. Paladins will be 28 points behind. Parry is really difficult to get an accurate number for, but I think 10 Parry is ~3-4% Avoidance. Therefore, you are looking at 9-11% extra avoidance for a Guardian. Aggro: 1) Amends will make holding aggro very trivial 2) A well balanced raid will make Guardians also have decently trival aggro. Paladins on the other hand makes it even more trival. Resists: 1) Capped very, very easily vs any fight in existence. Group Setup: Basic four spots in the MT group are: MT, Dirge, Defiler(Mystic is ok too), Templar. The most common job of the other two people are Mitigation (Paladin/Sk/Conj), Healing (Warden/Fury), Aggro Buffers(Coercer/Swash/Assassin). I would argue that its very rare not to have one of those 2 spots to be some sort of additional aggro buffers. One bonus a Paladin has over a Guardian lies in this choice. The swash, coercer, and assassin dont add much to the survivability of the MT. In fact, besides a poison buff which has better uses elsewhere, the swash and assassin add nothing. And the coercer is better off in a group with with people who need DPS mods (melees). Paladins on the other hand can throw in a Monk. When they are speced with the right AA they can go Offensive with proc taunt on, and taunt as normal. Theres absolutely no way you will loose aggro. Doing this allows a the monk to throw his avoidance buff on you (at master its an over 50% chance at their 70% avoidance). Anyway, the goalposts have been moved closer. We can tank anything in the game. But, like people have been said before you need to be really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good at what you do.

QualityJolt · 05-11-2006, 10:23 PM

2) For orange con mobs Guardians excell due to an assortment of temporary mitigation buffs. Since there is a large Mit penalty on orange con mobs, this extra mitigation makes a big difference.

/agree

I'm the main tank for my guild on Befallen. I had gotten one/two shotted by Orange con epic mobs way too many times

OrcSlayer96 · 05-11-2006, 10:57 PM

Oh noooooo, Leawyn, say it isnt so... SMILEY

I have been on EQ2 withdrawel for the last 4 1/2 days with my video card burnt out on my alienware laptop, so have been on the forums more, being as that is all my old pc can handle, heheh. Kalera posted a excellent post on what it takes to bring a pallie up for raiding... SMILEY

It is funny tho, I seem to be a minority with fellow fighters i talk to in game in having so much gear in my inventory and bank. Currently i have a poison/disease/heat/cold/mental/divine/magic sets of gear that i take out when raiding against mobs that can do damage like that. My most complete sets(jewelery and armor) are the heat/cold/poison ones and i am currently working on my int gear for straight buff/dps mode in raids or group. My main gear is STA/WIS/STR with AGI and INT when available and health/power heavy plus highest mitigation. Unless MT, i use a breastplate from the claymore series and put on the cuirass of protection when i need the boost.

I carry around 20 odd weapons or so along with around 3 different shields, a 24 slot bag full of potions/items that i have dragged to hotbars to give me increased stats/mitigation/resists/health/power and regens. I still have fun dragging out the bug zapper weapon on grey quests or breaking out a flowing thought whip for a little change of pace. I keep a 14 slot quiver in my range holder full of assorted arrows to help out when bow users run dry on their arrows. My current flavor weapon is the axe of blyze from the claymore line, i use it when i dont have to tank and like to see very large melle numbers, with a 7 second delay and decent stats i have posted my largest melee hit by far with that weapon, plus i rely more on my procs/spells/combat arts to do the majority of damage. When i need more consistant quicker damage i like the spirit-gorged flail for the average crushing damage and hammer ground capabilities. When in pure healer/caster mode it is all of my power regen gear coupled with str/wis/int items. I try to keep extra chameleon totems/food and drink on me for when people run out also.

For my playing style i try to keep my choices favoring Raid tank capability but hold onto gear that allows me to change to healer/buffer/ rez bot/ range caster mode with a few clicks on gear. I fully admit being more comfortable being the guy behind the tank versus being the main tank, but if i am needed i will step up to the plate. I believe being a paladin MT is the toughest spec a pallie can choose, but once you go that path and pickup gear tailored to other aspects of our character, it all works out in the end.

Leawyn · 05-12-2006, 12:05 AM

Ok i changed my mind. I still love you Steel! :smileyvery-happy:

And I am with you. I carry one bag full of potions, clickies, totems and whatever else I can cram in there (32 slots), one bag full of different gear and stats to fit whatever role I'm in, as well as a full set of Topaz jewelry (i went cheap but it works!) for each resist type. I also carry 8 weapons, tho I was up to 12. It was just a matter of taking up too much space. I was actually saddened to see some of my favorites get put away.

On top of all that, I also carry fun clickies, like my frog eye, my dark elf mask, my status dresses (just can't leave home without those!), my fireworks and, once I steal it back from my necro, my lucky rabbits foot hehe.

Needless to say, I'm generally the first one to fill my inventory on an lucky roll night lol!

Message Edited by Leawyn on 05-11-2006 01:08 PM

Kale · 05-12-2006, 12:20 AM

Clearly, I don't have big enough bags.

Caetrel · 05-12-2006, 01:07 AM

Sadly, /agree lustus. Guards have 308 more passive mit from AA, temp mit buffs from 600-1200 that are up one minute, down 30 seconds, up one minute, down 30 seconds. What this means is that for 1/3 of the time a guard has 300 more mit than a pally, and the other 2/3 of the time he is god. I RL for my guild and have MT'd alot, and I am one of if not the best geared tanks we have. Both our guards stand up better than me simply because of the mit situation. Our regular MT has about the same gear as me and he is a wall. Our other guard is new to raid tanking but is an awesome player, and even with less base mit and health he is sturdier than me. Guards have parry over us, tower of Stone, actuall useful AAs for tanking. We have broken [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Divine Aura and can spend 8 AA points for 4% more health to be almost as close in HP to a guard in the same gear. The raid mobs in T7 are made for a tank whose mit will roll from 6500 to almost 8k in a fight. Paladins will struggle to ever touch the bottom of that range.

OrcSlayer96 · 05-12-2006, 02:20 AM

Kalera wrote:
Clearly, I don't have big enough bags.

hehehhe, that is the funniest quote i have read in ages.. SMILEY

Normally i have 3 (32) slot rosewood boxes, a 20 slot evil eye bag, a 24 slot collection bag and a 30 slot collection bag. When i finish up the gnomish bag heritage i will have my 20 slot evil eye bag retired for the 32 slotter, heck i might just eventually have the gnome bag and 5 strongboxes for carrying things. Besides all of the gear i carry around i cant resist harvesting the ? and ! that i see plus the hopefull chance of a tier 7 rare(especially a spongy loam). I will still keep the bags in the bank in case they change strongboxes, but at the ability of carrying 2,000 pounds of weight ,400-600 pounds in strongboxes are no biggie. Now if they made the bags within 2 slots of a strongbox i would be more interested.

strider19 · 05-12-2006, 02:37 AM

Sadly, /agree lustus. Guards have 308 more passive mit from AA, temp mit buffs from 600-1200 that are up one minute, down 30 seconds, up one minute, down 30 seconds. What this means is that for 1/3 of the time a guard has 300 more mit than a pally, and the other 2/3 of the time he is god. I RL for my guild and have MT'd alot, and I am one of if not the best geared tanks we have. Both our guards stand up better than me simply because of the mit situation. Our regular MT has about the same gear as me and he is a wall. Our other guard is new to raid tanking but is an awesome player, and even with less base mit and health he is sturdier than me. Guards have parry over us, tower of Stone, actuall useful AAs for tanking. We have broken [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Divine Aura and can spend 8 AA points for 4% more health to be almost as close in HP to a guard in the same gear. The raid mobs in T7 are made for a tank whose mit will roll from 6500 to almost 8k in a fight. Paladins will struggle to ever touch the bottom of that range.

So what I've gotten from this thread is that Pallies in MT situations is purely opinion lol...because I have read a very well written post on how we can MT anything, and then this post which is also compelling writes that it's impossible for us to MT t7 raid content.

Leawyn · 05-12-2006, 02:46 AM

strider1987 wrote:
So what I've gotten from this thread is that Pallies in MT situations is purely opinion lol...because I have read a very well written post on how we can MT anything, and then this post which is also compelling writes that it's impossible for us to MT t7 raid content.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some of us believe we're quite qualified for MTing T7, some feel that we are capable but lacking compared to a Guard, and some feel that we can't tank a fluffy pink bunny weilding nothing but a cute cotton tail. Just as in life, your milage may vary.

QualityJolt · 05-12-2006, 03:05 AM

So what I've gotten from this thread is that Pallies in MT situations is purely opinion lol...because I have read a very well written post on how we can MT anything, and then this post which is also compelling writes that it's impossible for us to MT t7 raid content.

Speaking from my own experience MTing T7 raid mobs, I can say that you can MT in raids fine in T7 for white and yellow con mobs. But once they turn orange you will not have enough MIT to take the hits that they lay on you. Also I really want to know if any paladin has main tanked any t7 raid instances from beginning to end successfully. ( Lab for example ).

Dwergux · 05-12-2006, 12:41 PM

We can MT T7 raids, but...it seems guardians tank it better due to their CA's and Achievements.Guardians have a defensive bonus over paladins, whioch paladins ought to make up using heals and wards. The problem with those heals and wards is they get interupted / stunned alot when you MT, making it hard to use them.I hope paladins will get an achievement that makes them highly resistant to stuns for a given time (make the time worth something, 1 or 2 minutes or something with a 5 or 10 minutes reuse timer) and another skill to make the stuns last shorter on them so they can use their skills for what they are needed. It will not make us overpowered since our heals and wards still cost more mana than the buffs of a guardian.

demolition tank · 05-12-2006, 02:29 PM

What PVP server are you on?I currently am the main tank for the Havoc guild, but it's more out of desperation for a tank then the fact i'm an amazeing tank. To be fare to my self though, I think I would be better then any guardian or bserseker at tanking one encounter at a time. For multipul encounters, there is just nothing really I can do. It's really up to you weather or not you want to be main tank, if your guild won't let you main taink, just find one that will, because if you can main tank most guilds would be glad to have you.

Kale · 05-12-2006, 07:29 PM

Dwergux wrote:I hope paladins will get an achievement that makes them highly resistant to stuns for a given time (make the time worth something, 1 or 2 minutes or something with a 5 or 10 minutes reuse timer) and another skill to make the stuns last shorter on them so they can use their skills for what they are needed. It will not make us overpowered since our heals and wards still cost more mana than the buffs of a guardian.

This is what I've been talking about since Day 1. I don't want Guardian abilities, or I would have played a Guardian. But I'd love some abilities that allow my Paladin skills to shine while tanking MT stuff. Our wards and heals are a huge part of are arsenal. Some abilities than would enhance them would be realy welcome. I'd like to be able to cast a Ward while MT and know that (a) it won't be interrupted and (b) it is going to be as beneficial to me to cast it as the mitigation buffs that Guardians have. Whether that happens through Achievement abilities or some other method, I don't care. But it needs to happen.

QualityJolt · 05-12-2006, 09:29 PM

Kalera wrote:

Dwergux wrote:

I hope paladins will get an achievement that makes them highly resistant to stuns for a given time (make the time worth something, 1 or 2 minutes or something with a 5 or 10 minutes reuse timer) and another skill to make the stuns last shorter on them so they can use their skills for what they are needed. It will not make us overpowered since our heals and wards still cost more mana than the buffs of a guardian.

This is what I've been talking about since Day 1. I don't want Guardian abilities, or I would have played a Guardian. But I'd love some abilities that allow my Paladin skills to shine while tanking MT stuff.

Our wards and heals are a huge part of are arsenal. Some abilities than would enhance them would be realy welcome. I'd like to be able to cast a Ward while MT and know that (a) it won't be interrupted and (b) it is going to be as beneficial to me to cast it as the mitigation buffs that Guardians have.

Whether that happens through Achievement abilities or some other method, I don't care. But it needs to happen.

Yes. I don't care if we get mitigation buffs like Guardians/zerkers or not but I do want something that will help us in Raid MT situations. Something Like Divine Aura in our AA line would be nice ( currently divine aura doesn't work and the re-cast on it is too long anyway ) where it doesn't increase our MIT but block some damage is nice. Reducing the cast duration for Wards is always an option but during raids where mobs hit you for 4k a pop, wards are gone after you take one hit. SMILEY

Kale · 05-12-2006, 10:13 PM

QualityJolt wrote:
Yes. I don't care if we get mitigation buffs like Guardians/zerkers or not but I do want something that will help us in Raid MT situations. Something Like Divine Aura in our AA line would be nice ( currently divine aura doesn't work and the re-cast on it is too long anyway ) where it doesn't increase our MIT but block some damage is nice. Reducing the cast duration for Wards is always an option but during raids where mobs hit you for 4k a pop, wards are gone after you take one hit.

Yeah, and this is why I think our Wards need to be looked at in a raid situation. In a normal combat encounter with a group, our wards will block more than one hit. They block a range of hits which makes them really useful. But on raids they block basically one hit and then they're done. A Guardian's abilities increase their mitigation. They aren't blocking any hits they wouldn't have already taken, they're just taking less damage with each hit. Call it a Ward-over-Time, or a Heal-over-Time, but a Guardian is essentially taking a lot less from each hit. And that's what we need to be able to do. Maybe we need new kinds of wards. Instead of a regular ward that blocks X damage, why not a ward that blocks x% of damage over a period of time, like 30 seconds? Make it the 5th achievement in the STA line if you like, so it isn't considered overpowered. It would also be nice if we had a heal over time as well for raid tanking. If the devs don't want to give us the same kind of hit points that Guardians have then fine - use our heals to suppliment. Give us a heal-over-time to compensate for the damage we're taking and the fewer hit points we have to maneuver with. We have different tools for tanking. And in a normal group situation those tools are fun to use. Tanking as a Paladin is a fun job, despite the interrupts. But when those same tools become trivial against raid encounters then something is wrong. We're a plate tank. We need the tools.

Anzak · 05-12-2006, 10:15 PM

If would could cap Mit with a few item changes the way a guard can cap Divine and Magic resist with just a few item changes. Then I would not care about he bonus Mit Guards get in their AAs but the fact remains that Mit is the most important aspect of tanking on any raid mob and 300 is about 3% more Mit which is a major differance when you have mobs hitting for 5K and higher. Divine Aura still needs to be fix as well. As for our heals and wards I think they work well but should not be used as an excuse as to why Guards Mitigation is allowed to push so much higher than ours.

Sedi · 05-12-2006, 10:43 PM

Ive successfully tanked all of Labs, all of Lyceumm, and first half of HoS(didnt finish of course on first run:smileysad SMILEY

Add Pantrill, Vraskin, and Harla Dar in there if want to as well. Of course these are the low end of the raids for this Tier, but so is my gear atm. i have ALOT that can be upgraded, sadly we havent gotten the best plate drops lately. so yes, its qutie possible.

05-10-2006, 11:49 PM	#3
SirRock Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 56	Pathin Merrithay wrote: This topic has been covered ad nauseum in threads throughout these boards by this point. Short answer? No. Long answer? You will almost always take a backseat to a similarly equipped guardian in a raid. You can be awesome at fighting groups, but raiding is an experience well above and beyond any standard grouping situation. Yes, you may be able to... Paladins -can- take just about any end-game mob with the right strategies, gear and appropriate level. A Guardian just does it more efficiently and with a greater success rate. Well said. __________________

05-11-2006, 12:03 AM	#4
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	I did my first MT stint ever as a pally (previously raided as a Necro, only recently started raiding as Pally) and while I thought I was going to throw up the entire time (i was nervous as heck lol!) it was exciting and thrilling to be toe to toe with those mobs. Not sure i can do that all the time though! I had a mental and emotional "crash" after the adrenaline wore off, and ended up in bed a good 2 hours earlier than normal. And yes, I did MT over the 2 zerkers in my guild (we have no guards atm) who normally MT. We tried a new strat, with me and a monk in MT group. I put amends on the monk for agro, and he kept his avoidance buff on me. Worked out fantastic. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

05-11-2006, 04:43 AM	#7
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	/wave UzhielHow you been bro A good Paladin will be better then a subpar Guardian anyday....they might have better buffs then us, but we can still hold our own if needed .... __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)

05-11-2006, 06:15 AM	#8
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	Iustus wrote: The way things are currently balanced, paladins simply cannot MT the hardest encounters in the game. [snip] The fact of the matter is that any encounter that a paladin can MT will be a trivial encounter with a warrior MT using the same gear. Since SOE doesnt not want to make trivial encounters, the only time paladins are going to be MTing is when the raid is killing something that is already an easy encounter for them, below their ability and gear. -I I wouldn't go so far as to say that because a pally can MT, it automatically makes it trivial for a warrior. It is usually easier to use a guardian, but that doesn't mean that using any of the other tanks means the encounter is trivial. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

05-11-2006, 02:14 PM	#11
Turb General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,117	Hang on.For 15K to mitigate to 2K, that's 87% mitigation. Isn't it capped below that?I'd also like to know why pally mitigation on a raid is limited to 53%, which is 7K damage from a 15K hit.I'd have though the difference was more a few percent and maybe 500-1K per hit, which of course does add up. Is it really as wide as 53% vs 87%? __________________

05-10-2006, 10:52 PM	#1
strider19 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 54	I have never played a paladin to end game, but atm I'm lvl 47 on the PvP server and I have full out fabled/legendary gear. I'm somewhere around 3800 hp unbuffed, and I forget my mitigation for the first time ever lol. Anyway, I cank tank better than any guard I've seen my own level, in perma I handle lvl 50^^^ in multitudes with no crowd control. What I want to know is, why (other than having more taunts) do guards always MT in raids (from what I've heard). Will I ever be the MT in my guild? Or will I just be some useless extra buff to the guards mitigation? I want to be the one tanking dragons and the one known as the MT, not some guard:p I've raided end game in many other games but no EQ2, usually in other games it's always the warrior who tanks, and the other tanks are kinda useless, was wondering if its' different in eq2.

05-10-2006, 11:27 PM	#2
Pathin Merrithay Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 473	This topic has been covered ad nauseum in threads throughout these boards by this point. Short answer? No. Long answer? You will almost always take a backseat to a similarly equipped guardian in a raid. You can be awesome at fighting groups, but raiding is an experience well above and beyond any standard grouping situation. Yes, you may be able to... Paladins -can- take just about any end-game mob with the right strategies, gear and appropriate level. A Guardian just does it more efficiently and with a greater success rate.

05-11-2006, 03:09 AM	#5
Iustus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 133	The way things are currently balanced, paladins simply cannot MT the hardest encounters in the game. SOE tunes these encounters to be very difficult, almost impossible, with a berzerker or guardian tank. This makes them impossible with a paladin tank, paladins will just get hit for too much. The difference between having a mob hit you every hit for 2k and every hit for 7k is not that much mitigation. Warriors are going to be able to get their mitigation high enough to get those 2k hits, while paladins will max out still getting hit at the 7k hits. Not to mention lower avoidance as well. It's all well and good to talk about wards and heals, but none of that matters when 2 hits from the mob kills you. This is not EQ1 where the actual mitigation of the damage of the max hit of a mob was relatively small,and you could have even wizards MT mobs if they were well geared enough. In EQ2, mobs max hit might be 15k, which gets mitigated by a paladin to 7k and a warrior to 2k. Mitigation of damage is the primary factor in success in tanking a raid mob. Holding agro is a very distant second. The fact of the matter is that any encounter that a paladin can MT will be a trivial encounter with a warrior MT using the same gear. Since SOE doesnt not want to make trivial encounters, the only time paladins are going to be MTing is when the raid is killing something that is already an easy encounter for them, below their ability and gear. On raids, paladins are a dps and healing class, not tanks. As far as 'off tank', I do not think most people are using this term in the way I understand it. Off tank is not someone who buffs the tank with buffs. Off tank should be someone that actually tanks secondary mobs, but once again, this is not the role of the paladin. Most of the time, the best route is to just have the one tank tank everything, because you just dont have enough healers to do anything else. Either the mobs hit for almost nothing, in which case having the MT tank them is no greater burden, or the mobs hit for a ton, in which case, a paladin isnt going to be tanking them. -I

05-11-2006, 03:34 AM	#6
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	I do agree that Guardians can tank slightly better than Paladins. I will respectfully disagree with Lustus in terms of Bers. Tanking IMO goes like this: Guard > Paly > Ber > SK > Bruiser > Monk. Nothing but love for ya, Lustus! :smileytongue:

05-11-2006, 06:31 AM	#9
Hakan Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 77	No matter how many times this topic comes up, it will always draw commentary. Ha! I know Guardians have better mitigation than Paladins, but is the difference really that vast? Just because a Paladin can't MT the most powerful 2-3 mobs in the entire game does not mean they are not a viable raid tank for the vast majority of material. If I am way off base, it is because of my inexperience... Hakanek

05-11-2006, 12:58 PM	#10
Xan Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 12	Im sorry.. but to say a paladin "can't" tank something.. is a lie.. Ive seen first hand and done it myself in some situations.. any one of the plate tank classes can tank anything.. Im not saying its always graceful lol. but It can happen.. and as far as the mitigation difference.. sorry dude.. its not that huge.. In all actuality... its the avoidance thats bigger.. due to guards havin that group defense buff.. which raises your overall avoidance.. Ive seen the comparisons of guards/zerkers/pallies/sks at high end with fabled and and all that crap.. and the difference in mitigation and avoidance isnt that big... 2k to 7k... thats called bein a drama queen lol.. Im not saying the guardian cant handle it better... but not so much better that a paladin cant be an option.. End story?.. Only thing the guards and zerkers really have over pallies and sks... is the short duration mitigation boosts they can give.. and if handled correctly.. that can be balanced if a pally or sk is tankin if everyone knows what their doin.. Each plate tank has their pro's and con's... ALL classes.. have their pro's and con's.. but a good player can utilize the pro's to overshadow the con's.. dont rely so much on the class as you do the player.. cause a uber geared person can be shown up by a well skilled player anyday..

05-11-2006, 08:48 PM	#12
Kale Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 222	The real problem isn't that we can't tank raid mobs (because we can), it is that we're battling perception in addition to everything else. When EQ2 started the Guardian was the clear favorite for raid tanking. The game has been tweaked here and there, with LU13 changing things significantly. Paladins are much better raid tanks now than we were when the game launched. But after a year of everyone having Guardians tank, the perception is that Paladins cannot. And we don't help ourselves out much. We're a very versatile class. You can specialize a Paladin a number of different ways. You can go for offensive firepower (lots of STr, big power pool, high damage with CA's and spells), healing/warding (high STR/WIS for biggest power pool, utilizing Flowing Thought equipment and minstration gear), or you can outfit for tanking (high STA/Hit points, Master hate spells). Because of this specialization people see a lot of different Paladins and styles of play. When people group with Paladins it's a crapshoot - they could get any one of the builds. If they get a person who has built their Paladin to be an off-tank, offensive tank or healing tank then they aren't going to see what a true MT Paladin can do. I can't count the number of times I've grouped with people in a pickup situation and they wanted someone else to tank because I'm a Paladin. But someone smart in the group almost always does an /inspection. They see my stats and compare to the other tanks, even some Guardians, and they go, "Wait, let the Paladin tank!" People who are stat savvy know that gear and stats make a huge difference. The comparison people always use here is, "If a Guardian and a Paladin have the same equipment..." But the reality is they rarely have the same equipment! And just because an item has the Fabled tag on it doesn't mean it's automatically a great item for a tank that wants to be raid MT. You have to focus on the stats that make you a great raid MT, like STA, Mitigation and HP. I see so many Paladins running around with STR/INT/WIS on major Fabled pieces because they think the Fabled makes them elite. But to my main point - we're battling perception. People think a Guardian is always better. They think a Berserker is always better. These perceptions, true or not, have become a sort of twisted reality. I was on a Rhaotep raid a week ago and I was invited by guildmates because they needed a plate tank. Then a Berserker (same levle) shows up late and says he's tanking. He tells me He's got 4,100 mitigation and so he should tank over me. I /inspected him and guess what I found? He was lying. He had 3,500 mitigation (200 less than me) and about 500 hit points less than me (before raid buffs). His mitigation percentage was around 57% and mine was around 59% for same level. Perception. We're battling it. People use it against us. Heck, some Guardians and Berserkers think that just because they are a Guardian or Berserker than automatically makes them superior to a Paladin without taking gear or stats into account. People like to think in "ideal" situational terms. Yes, if you had a Guardian and a Paladin in identical gear, identically equipped (never happens) and they had both put their traits/trainings/stat selections into the same stuff, then your Guardian is going to be better suited for a raid MT. Those conditions never exist. Paladins can MT raid content. Maybe it's not as easy (and we all know we could use a little love in that department), but we can do it. We're not paper mache. But unlike the Guardian, a Paladin has to be built for it. You have to put all of your focus and effort into being a raid MT. You have to get the right gear, select the right traits, etc. If you don't do those things you will never measure up. And then you have to sucessfully battle the perception of being a Paladin.

05-11-2006, 09:27 PM	#13
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	Kalera wrote: The real problem isn't that we can't tank raid mobs (because we can), it is that we're battling perception in addition to everything else. When EQ2 started the Guardian was the clear favorite for raid tanking. The game has been tweaked here and there, with LU13 changing things significantly. Paladins are much better raid tanks now than we were when the game launched. But after a year of everyone having Guardians tank, the perception is that Paladins cannot. And we don't help ourselves out much. We're a very versatile class. You can specialize a Paladin a number of different ways. You can go for offensive firepower (lots of STr, big power pool, high damage with CA's and spells), healing/warding (high STR/WIS for biggest power pool, utilizing Flowing Thought equipment and minstration gear), or you can outfit for tanking (high STA/Hit points, Master hate spells). Because of this specialization people see a lot of different Paladins and styles of play. When people group with Paladins it's a crapshoot - they could get any one of the builds. If they get a person who has built their Paladin to be an off-tank, offensive tank or healing tank then they aren't going to see what a true MT Paladin can do. I can't count the number of times I've grouped with people in a pickup situation and they wanted someone else to tank because I'm a Paladin. But someone smart in the group almost always does an /inspection. They see my stats and compare to the other tanks, even some Guardians, and they go, "Wait, let the Paladin tank!" People who are stat savvy know that gear and stats make a huge difference. The comparison people always use here is, "If a Guardian and a Paladin have the same equipment..." But the reality is they rarely have the same equipment! And just because an item has the Fabled tag on it doesn't mean it's automatically a great item for a tank that wants to be raid MT. You have to focus on the stats that make you a great raid MT, like STA, Mitigation and HP. I see so many Paladins running around with STR/INT/WIS on major Fabled pieces because they think the Fabled makes them elite. But to my main point - we're battling perception. People think a Guardian is always better. They think a Berserker is always better. These perceptions, true or not, have become a sort of twisted reality. I was on a Rhaotep raid a week ago and I was invited by guildmates because they needed a plate tank. Then a Berserker (same levle) shows up late and says he's tanking. He tells me He's got 4,100 mitigation and so he should tank over me. I /inspected him and guess what I found? He was lying. He had 3,500 mitigation (200 less than me) and about 500 hit points less than me (before raid buffs). His mitigation percentage was around 57% and mine was around 59% for same level. Perception. We're battling it. People use it against us. Heck, some Guardians and Berserkers think that just because they are a Guardian or Berserker than automatically makes them superior to a Paladin without taking gear or stats into account. People like to think in "ideal" situational terms. Yes, if you had a Guardian and a Paladin in identical gear, identically equipped (never happens) and they had both put their traits/trainings/stat selections into the same stuff, then your Guardian is going to be better suited for a raid MT. Those conditions never exist. Paladins can MT raid content. Maybe it's not as easy (and we all know we could use a little love in that department), but we can do it. We're not paper mache. But unlike the Guardian, a Paladin has to be built for it. You have to put all of your focus and effort into being a raid MT. You have to get the right gear, select the right traits, etc. If you don't do those things you will never measure up. And then you have to sucessfully battle the perception of being a Paladin. I think Steel has another Pally to battle for my affections..... This is an excellently written post and I will be referring to it in future disagreements about what a Pally can and cannot do! __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

05-11-2006, 09:34 PM	#14
Gornd Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 93	I'm the main tank for Legacy on Unrest. Heres the general breakdown (Assume fabled gear for the MT class): Mitigation: 1) For yellow con mobs mitigation is pretty easily capped with an assortment of raid setups, potions, gear, etc. 2) For orange con mobs Guardians excell due to an assortment of temporary mitigation buffs. Since there is a large Mit penalty on orange con mobs, this extra mitigation makes a big difference. Avoidance: 1) Defense hardcap is 420. Easily maxed by any fighter class on a raid. 2) Parry hardcap is 420. Easily maxed if you are a Guardian and have a Dirge in the MT group. Paladins will be 28 points behind. Parry is really difficult to get an accurate number for, but I think 10 Parry is ~3-4% Avoidance. Therefore, you are looking at 9-11% extra avoidance for a Guardian. Aggro: 1) Amends will make holding aggro very trivial 2) A well balanced raid will make Guardians also have decently trival aggro. Paladins on the other hand makes it even more trival. Resists: 1) Capped very, very easily vs any fight in existence. Group Setup: Basic four spots in the MT group are: MT, Dirge, Defiler(Mystic is ok too), Templar. The most common job of the other two people are Mitigation (Paladin/Sk/Conj), Healing (Warden/Fury), Aggro Buffers(Coercer/Swash/Assassin). I would argue that its very rare not to have one of those 2 spots to be some sort of additional aggro buffers. One bonus a Paladin has over a Guardian lies in this choice. The swash, coercer, and assassin dont add much to the survivability of the MT. In fact, besides a poison buff which has better uses elsewhere, the swash and assassin add nothing. And the coercer is better off in a group with with people who need DPS mods (melees). Paladins on the other hand can throw in a Monk. When they are speced with the right AA they can go Offensive with proc taunt on, and taunt as normal. Theres absolutely no way you will loose aggro. Doing this allows a the monk to throw his avoidance buff on you (at master its an over 50% chance at their 70% avoidance). Anyway, the goalposts have been moved closer. We can tank anything in the game. But, like people have been said before you need to be really [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good at what you do. __________________ Gorndax Dragondorf Leader of Legacy Unrest

05-11-2006, 10:23 PM	#15
QualityJolt Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	2) For orange con mobs Guardians excell due to an assortment of temporary mitigation buffs. Since there is a large Mit penalty on orange con mobs, this extra mitigation makes a big difference. /agree I'm the main tank for my guild on Befallen. I had gotten one/two shotted by Orange con epic mobs way too many times

05-11-2006, 10:57 PM	#16
OrcSlayer96 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 794	Oh noooooo, Leawyn, say it isnt so... I have been on EQ2 withdrawel for the last 4 1/2 days with my video card burnt out on my alienware laptop, so have been on the forums more, being as that is all my old pc can handle, heheh. Kalera posted a excellent post on what it takes to bring a pallie up for raiding... It is funny tho, I seem to be a minority with fellow fighters i talk to in game in having so much gear in my inventory and bank. Currently i have a poison/disease/heat/cold/mental/divine/magic sets of gear that i take out when raiding against mobs that can do damage like that. My most complete sets(jewelery and armor) are the heat/cold/poison ones and i am currently working on my int gear for straight buff/dps mode in raids or group. My main gear is STA/WIS/STR with AGI and INT when available and health/power heavy plus highest mitigation. Unless MT, i use a breastplate from the claymore series and put on the cuirass of protection when i need the boost. I carry around 20 odd weapons or so along with around 3 different shields, a 24 slot bag full of potions/items that i have dragged to hotbars to give me increased stats/mitigation/resists/health/power and regens. I still have fun dragging out the bug zapper weapon on grey quests or breaking out a flowing thought whip for a little change of pace. I keep a 14 slot quiver in my range holder full of assorted arrows to help out when bow users run dry on their arrows. My current flavor weapon is the axe of blyze from the claymore line, i use it when i dont have to tank and like to see very large melle numbers, with a 7 second delay and decent stats i have posted my largest melee hit by far with that weapon, plus i rely more on my procs/spells/combat arts to do the majority of damage. When i need more consistant quicker damage i like the spirit-gorged flail for the average crushing damage and hammer ground capabilities. When in pure healer/caster mode it is all of my power regen gear coupled with str/wis/int items. I try to keep extra chameleon totems/food and drink on me for when people run out also. For my playing style i try to keep my choices favoring Raid tank capability but hold onto gear that allows me to change to healer/buffer/ rez bot/ range caster mode with a few clicks on gear. I fully admit being more comfortable being the guy behind the tank versus being the main tank, but if i am needed i will step up to the plate. I believe being a paladin MT is the toughest spec a pallie can choose, but once you go that path and pickup gear tailored to other aspects of our character, it all works out in the end.

05-12-2006, 12:05 AM	#17
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	Ok i changed my mind. I still love you Steel! :smileyvery-happy: And I am with you. I carry one bag full of potions, clickies, totems and whatever else I can cram in there (32 slots), one bag full of different gear and stats to fit whatever role I'm in, as well as a full set of Topaz jewelry (i went cheap but it works!) for each resist type. I also carry 8 weapons, tho I was up to 12. It was just a matter of taking up too much space. I was actually saddened to see some of my favorites get put away. On top of all that, I also carry fun clickies, like my frog eye, my dark elf mask, my status dresses (just can't leave home without those!), my fireworks and, once I steal it back from my necro, my lucky rabbits foot hehe. Needless to say, I'm generally the first one to fill my inventory on an lucky roll night lol! Message Edited by Leawyn on 05-11-2006 01:08 PM __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

05-12-2006, 12:20 AM	#18
Kale Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 222	Clearly, I don't have big enough bags.

05-12-2006, 01:07 AM	#19
Caetrel Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 427	Sadly, /agree lustus. Guards have 308 more passive mit from AA, temp mit buffs from 600-1200 that are up one minute, down 30 seconds, up one minute, down 30 seconds. What this means is that for 1/3 of the time a guard has 300 more mit than a pally, and the other 2/3 of the time he is god. I RL for my guild and have MT'd alot, and I am one of if not the best geared tanks we have. Both our guards stand up better than me simply because of the mit situation. Our regular MT has about the same gear as me and he is a wall. Our other guard is new to raid tanking but is an awesome player, and even with less base mit and health he is sturdier than me. Guards have parry over us, tower of Stone, actuall useful AAs for tanking. We have broken [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Divine Aura and can spend 8 AA points for 4% more health to be almost as close in HP to a guard in the same gear. The raid mobs in T7 are made for a tank whose mit will roll from 6500 to almost 8k in a fight. Paladins will struggle to ever touch the bottom of that range. __________________ Fidelus Raid Leader Survivors Guk

05-12-2006, 02:20 AM	#20
OrcSlayer96 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 794	Kalera wrote: Clearly, I don't have big enough bags. hehehhe, that is the funniest quote i have read in ages.. Normally i have 3 (32) slot rosewood boxes, a 20 slot evil eye bag, a 24 slot collection bag and a 30 slot collection bag. When i finish up the gnomish bag heritage i will have my 20 slot evil eye bag retired for the 32 slotter, heck i might just eventually have the gnome bag and 5 strongboxes for carrying things. Besides all of the gear i carry around i cant resist harvesting the ? and ! that i see plus the hopefull chance of a tier 7 rare(especially a spongy loam). I will still keep the bags in the bank in case they change strongboxes, but at the ability of carrying 2,000 pounds of weight ,400-600 pounds in strongboxes are no biggie. Now if they made the bags within 2 slots of a strongbox i would be more interested.

05-12-2006, 02:37 AM	#21
strider19 Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 54	Sadly, /agree lustus. Guards have 308 more passive mit from AA, temp mit buffs from 600-1200 that are up one minute, down 30 seconds, up one minute, down 30 seconds. What this means is that for 1/3 of the time a guard has 300 more mit than a pally, and the other 2/3 of the time he is god. I RL for my guild and have MT'd alot, and I am one of if not the best geared tanks we have. Both our guards stand up better than me simply because of the mit situation. Our regular MT has about the same gear as me and he is a wall. Our other guard is new to raid tanking but is an awesome player, and even with less base mit and health he is sturdier than me. Guards have parry over us, tower of Stone, actuall useful AAs for tanking. We have broken [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Divine Aura and can spend 8 AA points for 4% more health to be almost as close in HP to a guard in the same gear. The raid mobs in T7 are made for a tank whose mit will roll from 6500 to almost 8k in a fight. Paladins will struggle to ever touch the bottom of that range. So what I've gotten from this thread is that Pallies in MT situations is purely opinion lol...because I have read a very well written post on how we can MT anything, and then this post which is also compelling writes that it's impossible for us to MT t7 raid content.

05-12-2006, 02:46 AM	#22
Leawyn Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,014	strider1987 wrote: So what I've gotten from this thread is that Pallies in MT situations is purely opinion lol...because I have read a very well written post on how we can MT anything, and then this post which is also compelling writes that it's impossible for us to MT t7 raid content. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some of us believe we're quite qualified for MTing T7, some feel that we are capable but lacking compared to a Guard, and some feel that we can't tank a fluffy pink bunny weilding nothing but a cute cotton tail. Just as in life, your milage may vary. __________________ Maelani \| Maelya \| Maerie \| Maehymn \| Maewyn \| Maekita \| Maelynne

05-12-2006, 03:05 AM	#23
QualityJolt Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	So what I've gotten from this thread is that Pallies in MT situations is purely opinion lol...because I have read a very well written post on how we can MT anything, and then this post which is also compelling writes that it's impossible for us to MT t7 raid content. Speaking from my own experience MTing T7 raid mobs, I can say that you can MT in raids fine in T7 for white and yellow con mobs. But once they turn orange you will not have enough MIT to take the hits that they lay on you. Also I really want to know if any paladin has main tanked any t7 raid instances from beginning to end successfully. ( Lab for example ).

05-12-2006, 12:41 PM	#24
Dwergux Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 353	We can MT T7 raids, but...it seems guardians tank it better due to their CA's and Achievements.Guardians have a defensive bonus over paladins, whioch paladins ought to make up using heals and wards. The problem with those heals and wards is they get interupted / stunned alot when you MT, making it hard to use them.I hope paladins will get an achievement that makes them highly resistant to stuns for a given time (make the time worth something, 1 or 2 minutes or something with a 5 or 10 minutes reuse timer) and another skill to make the stuns last shorter on them so they can use their skills for what they are needed. It will not make us overpowered since our heals and wards still cost more mana than the buffs of a guardian. __________________

05-12-2006, 02:29 PM	#25
demolition tank Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 99	What PVP server are you on?I currently am the main tank for the Havoc guild, but it's more out of desperation for a tank then the fact i'm an amazeing tank. To be fare to my self though, I think I would be better then any guardian or bserseker at tanking one encounter at a time. For multipul encounters, there is just nothing really I can do. It's really up to you weather or not you want to be main tank, if your guild won't let you main taink, just find one that will, because if you can main tank most guilds would be glad to have you.

05-12-2006, 07:29 PM	#26
Kale Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 222	Dwergux wrote:I hope paladins will get an achievement that makes them highly resistant to stuns for a given time (make the time worth something, 1 or 2 minutes or something with a 5 or 10 minutes reuse timer) and another skill to make the stuns last shorter on them so they can use their skills for what they are needed. It will not make us overpowered since our heals and wards still cost more mana than the buffs of a guardian. This is what I've been talking about since Day 1. I don't want Guardian abilities, or I would have played a Guardian. But I'd love some abilities that allow my Paladin skills to shine while tanking MT stuff. Our wards and heals are a huge part of are arsenal. Some abilities than would enhance them would be realy welcome. I'd like to be able to cast a Ward while MT and know that (a) it won't be interrupted and (b) it is going to be as beneficial to me to cast it as the mitigation buffs that Guardians have. Whether that happens through Achievement abilities or some other method, I don't care. But it needs to happen.

05-12-2006, 09:29 PM	#27
QualityJolt Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 16	Kalera wrote: Dwergux wrote: I hope paladins will get an achievement that makes them highly resistant to stuns for a given time (make the time worth something, 1 or 2 minutes or something with a 5 or 10 minutes reuse timer) and another skill to make the stuns last shorter on them so they can use their skills for what they are needed. It will not make us overpowered since our heals and wards still cost more mana than the buffs of a guardian. This is what I've been talking about since Day 1. I don't want Guardian abilities, or I would have played a Guardian. But I'd love some abilities that allow my Paladin skills to shine while tanking MT stuff. Our wards and heals are a huge part of are arsenal. Some abilities than would enhance them would be realy welcome. I'd like to be able to cast a Ward while MT and know that (a) it won't be interrupted and (b) it is going to be as beneficial to me to cast it as the mitigation buffs that Guardians have. Whether that happens through Achievement abilities or some other method, I don't care. But it needs to happen. Yes. I don't care if we get mitigation buffs like Guardians/zerkers or not but I do want something that will help us in Raid MT situations. Something Like Divine Aura in our AA line would be nice ( currently divine aura doesn't work and the re-cast on it is too long anyway ) where it doesn't increase our MIT but block some damage is nice. Reducing the cast duration for Wards is always an option but during raids where mobs hit you for 4k a pop, wards are gone after you take one hit.

05-12-2006, 10:13 PM	#28
Kale Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 222	QualityJolt wrote: Yes. I don't care if we get mitigation buffs like Guardians/zerkers or not but I do want something that will help us in Raid MT situations. Something Like Divine Aura in our AA line would be nice ( currently divine aura doesn't work and the re-cast on it is too long anyway ) where it doesn't increase our MIT but block some damage is nice. Reducing the cast duration for Wards is always an option but during raids where mobs hit you for 4k a pop, wards are gone after you take one hit. Yeah, and this is why I think our Wards need to be looked at in a raid situation. In a normal combat encounter with a group, our wards will block more than one hit. They block a range of hits which makes them really useful. But on raids they block basically one hit and then they're done. A Guardian's abilities increase their mitigation. They aren't blocking any hits they wouldn't have already taken, they're just taking less damage with each hit. Call it a Ward-over-Time, or a Heal-over-Time, but a Guardian is essentially taking a lot less from each hit. And that's what we need to be able to do. Maybe we need new kinds of wards. Instead of a regular ward that blocks X damage, why not a ward that blocks x% of damage over a period of time, like 30 seconds? Make it the 5th achievement in the STA line if you like, so it isn't considered overpowered. It would also be nice if we had a heal over time as well for raid tanking. If the devs don't want to give us the same kind of hit points that Guardians have then fine - use our heals to suppliment. Give us a heal-over-time to compensate for the damage we're taking and the fewer hit points we have to maneuver with. We have different tools for tanking. And in a normal group situation those tools are fun to use. Tanking as a Paladin is a fun job, despite the interrupts. But when those same tools become trivial against raid encounters then something is wrong. We're a plate tank. We need the tools.

05-12-2006, 10:15 PM	#29
Anzak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 548	If would could cap Mit with a few item changes the way a guard can cap Divine and Magic resist with just a few item changes. Then I would not care about he bonus Mit Guards get in their AAs but the fact remains that Mit is the most important aspect of tanking on any raid mob and 300 is about 3% more Mit which is a major differance when you have mobs hitting for 5K and higher. Divine Aura still needs to be fix as well. As for our heals and wards I think they work well but should not be used as an excuse as to why Guards Mitigation is allowed to push so much higher than ours.

05-12-2006, 10:43 PM	#30
Sedi General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 53	Ive successfully tanked all of Labs, all of Lyceumm, and first half of HoS(didnt finish of course on first run:smileysadAdd Pantrill, Vraskin, and Harla Dar in there if want to as well. Of course these are the low end of the raids for this Tier, but so is my gear atm. i have ALOT that can be upgraded, sadly we havent gotten the best plate drops lately. so yes, its qutie possible.