Whats the point?

[Veuclori]

Hey everyone. Recently I've considered rolling a paladin.

 

But, from what I've gathered it seems that paladins will never be able to match a berserker or guardian in MIT even with self buffs and heals. So, do paladins have an edge in any way at all compared to the other tanking classes? 

 

 

 

[Iustus]

Paladins can heal. This means in semi-easy but very long fights, paladins have an edge. Paladins can not heal much, but even a little is enough to solo some things that a non-healing fighter could not win.

Paladins have an agro edge vs group mobs with the right group makeup (although berzerkers are probably on par, plus they can take the hits better).

Overall, paladins (and shadowknights) seem to be suffering right now from the problem of too many tank classes in EQ2. There doesnt seem to be a way to make them all viable, so SOE has to pick a couple and make them worthy tanks, and let the rest just linger.

I must put the disclaimer that I am a bit bitter about the game right now, as my main job on raids is to warm the bench. This is a big step down from being main tank during the end of DoF expansion, but the sad fact is that paladins bring very little to most raids in EQ2, which are all basically DPS tests. The more dps you can get with a group of 24 people, while still keeping the MT alive and surviving the AoEs, the more success you will have. The sad reality is that a paladin is only a liability in these situations.

-I

[Torum]

I agree, currently there is no reason for someone to roll a pally...  We can solo mostly easier green heroics but when the mobs are blue or higher it gets scarey.  I have a pretty uber pally and if I try to fight a blue or even heroic I spend my mana on wards and sence most of our CA's have an insane recast time makes it tough.  So solo wise were not that great I would say equal  to a guard. As a group tank were great we can hold agro awsome but most all tanks can so there is nothing there that makes pallys speacial.  When it come to raiding man this is when it gets sad, were the waterboy, people dont invite a pally to a raid for dps when they could take obviously a dps class.   Were not invited for our heals well cause compaired to a real healers there weak close to pathetic.  For a tank a raid is going to chose a guard or zerker for obvious reasons.  At this point if you want the over all package I would say go for a zerker they can tank fine in group and epic content and have insane dps.  If you want an uber MT who can tank 98% of all epic content chose a guard, they may have little to no dps but when your standing toe to toe with the toughest mobs in game that concern goes right out the window....  Pallys need help and so do our evil coucins, really disappointed to use to raid all the T6 content now I buff a guard and ward.   Lol and Im a tank, hmm doesnt sound like 1..

[Rocksthemic]

---

Iustus wrote:

Paladins can heal. This means in semi-easy but very long fights, paladins have an edge. Paladins can not heal much, but even a little is enough to solo some things that a non-healing fighter could not win.

Paladins have an agro edge vs group mobs with the right group makeup (although berzerkers are probably on par, plus they can take the hits better).

Overall, paladins (and shadowknights) seem to be suffering right now from the problem of too many tank classes in EQ2. There doesnt seem to be a way to make them all viable, so SOE has to pick a couple and make them worthy tanks, and let the rest just linger.

I must put the disclaimer that I am a bit bitter about the game right now, as my main job on raids is to warm the bench. This is a big step down from being main tank during the end of DoF expansion, but the sad fact is that paladins bring very little to most raids in EQ2, which are all basically DPS tests. The more dps you can get with a group of 24 people, while still keeping the MT alive and surviving the AoEs, the more success you will have. The sad reality is that a paladin is only a liability in these situations.

-I

---

I will disagree with paladins being a raid liability. We serve as awesome aggro soakers, which is an underestimated part of raiding. We try and have the high dps in a group with a troubador (like wizzie and warlock, assassin and ranger) but the troubador hate decreaser only works on non-fighters. If you have a paladin in a group with a monk/bruiser, you can soak their aggro nicely, allowing them to go full out and thus contribute lots of dps to the raid that they ordinarily wouldn't be able to do. Also swashbucklers can dump their hate onto you, allowing them to do more dps than they would be able to do otherwise. All this time, you are able to group heal after AE's, single target heal and ward the tank to help out, rez people, and you have 2 different spells that stun EPIC targets on raids. You see pardas casting his AE? You can interrupt it if you time it right. Not only this, but in a situation where offtanking is required, we can fill that roll quite nicely, allowing your Gaurdian to not have to tank 3 mobs at a time, but rather 2. This is a huge difference. Yes, we will never be the front line tank for most mobs as it stands now, but that doesn't mean we don't help out in our own way. That is only raid utility. In groups we shine even more becuase we by far keep some of the best aggro with proper group make up, and can tank any 1 group content as well as any other tank out there. Thundaarr Unrest

[Torum]

Yeah but he wants to know if rolling a pally is worth doing as a MT.  In my opinon right now in this exspantion no, all of those thing are nice in a raid if you want to play an off tank but if you want to MT, might as well roll 1 of the classes that are considered the best all round...

[Akro]

The history with SOE and tanks is always the same, i hope next game they develop, only puts a tank. Forgive rolling a crusader if wants an MT, choose a guardian, is the fact.

 Some of us says we can tank in raid, but.... if you have a class that with similar gear have much mitigation than you...(Mitigation AAs, temporary buffs than raise it a lot...) why the hell is going a Raid leader to put you as MT when have another better option? In raid the engage with mob is the most importan in the most of cases, and a Guardian is better suited for resist it by far than us.

 Buffs.... other classes have better than us.

Heals... no coment

dps... no coment

In groups scenarios, whatever tank can do fine the job, in raid scenarios i only see 2 tank classes: Guardian and monks because they can do insane dps and can fill a dps spot and have tsunami for pulls.

Mate , id chose a Guardian if wants a MT or a dps class or healer class but forgive crusaders, SOE is doing the same of always with them. Well be at end a support class useless because others classes do the job better (but in eq1 Raids were for 72 and here 24 == no spots for pallies).

[Leawyn]

*SIGH* had a beautiful post written about what edge pallies do have. Eaten by the "Invalid HTML" bug. Here's the condensed version. Most raiding guilds are tank heavy, not just pally heavy. Most fighters (particularly those in plate) will have difficulty getting into a raiding guild due to the overabundance of tank classes on all servers. Most raiding guilds do not need more than 6-8 total fighters, and no more than 2 of any single class. This is for all fighters! Balance is difficult in a guild that raids, because you can never predict when a player will stop logging in for whatever reasons. Pallies shine in small group, full group and small raid encounters. We have alot that we can bring to a full raid and solo as well, but those benefits admittedly are overshadowed by other classes in some cases. In the end, you pay to play this game, so play what you enjoy. If you want to be *THE* raid MT, you will want to roll a guardian. If you want to be dps, you'll want to roll one of those. If you want to heal, you can pick any of those 6 classes. But if you want to be a great all around class, with the ability to take a hit, or deal a hit in the right circumstances, or to save a raid or group with a well timed heal or rez, then pallies are where it is at.

[Sedi]

I laugh at this thread.

[Plaidler]

put all your heals at master and max your heal crit aa's and tell me we cant heal. My single heals are around 1200, my group heal is around 1200-1300, my loh is around 4500 Im  always in the main tank group, my heals are always in the parser plus my amends is on the main healer , plus ,my pledge is on the mt, plus i can intercede or off tank if needed. The best i have healed is 55000 on a parser in one raid encounter.. It is easy to beat furies and mystics and if the templar is bludging i beat him too. I get my tanking thrills by doing every group zone this game has to offer and have tanked my way through doomlord in HoF. Half my spells are at master and my spells crit 68% so my dps is good enough to get the job done. Whoever says we have no place in a raid is a fool.

[Pathin Merrithay]

I've always made this arguement and I will continue to do say in saying that each tank class has their own, particular role in this game. They can each fit into different roles and manage adequately, but have NO doubt that the roles are there. The role of the Guardian is as Raid MT. This has always been. This always will be. They will ALWAYS be best at it. Can a paladin fit this role? Sure. It's possible to have a paladin MT. Are we the best choice? Not by a long shot.

As Leawyn stated, you make a choice when you choose to play a paladin. We are tanks, yes. But we are not the best choice for raid tanks. If you go into game at this point creating a paladin to do just that, you will be sorely disappointed. We do, however, have our role in raids. With my array of buffs and AA choices, I have yet to be out of the MT group if I can make it to a raid. So, what are we? At the moment, and I specify on raids, we can buff the MT with Mit, extra avoidance, Health Regen, Sta, Wis, etc etc.

[Anzak]

---

Pathin Merrithay wrote:

I've always made this arguement and I will continue to do say in saying that each tank class has their own, particular role in this game. They can each fit into different roles and manage adequately, but have NO doubt that the roles are there. The role of the Guardian is as Raid MT. This has always been. This always will be. They will ALWAYS be best at it. Can a paladin fit this role? Sure. It's possible to have a paladin MT. Are we the best choice? Not by a long shot.

As Leawyn stated, you make a choice when you choose to play a paladin. We are tanks, yes. But we are not the best choice for raid tanks. If you go into game at this point creating a paladin to do just that, you will be sorely disappointed. We do, however, have our role in raids. With my array of buffs and AA choices, I have yet to be out of the MT group if I can make it to a raid. So, what are we? At the moment, and I specify on raids, we can buff the MT with Mit, extra avoidance, Health Regen, Sta, Wis, etc etc.

---

Not to sound like a broken record but that is the problem with the system.  At this point Warriors are getting more and more of a Raid tank advantage.  All tank classes should be able to tank raids with each class having a situation where they are better.  To date have I yet to see a situation where a pally is the better choice for a raid tank.  This is where the system is broken.  The whole resist buff thing was a move in the right direction but fell short in that any tank can buff a single resist well over the cap with little work and even without resist buffing mobs still do most of their damage in melee so guards are the better choice with Zerkers (a DPS tank) being the second rather than the healing tank which is the way SOE said is should be.

[Kale]

---

Pathin Merrithay wrote:

As Leawyn stated, you make a choice when you choose to play a paladin. We are tanks, yes. But we are not the best choice for raid tanks. If you go into game at this point creating a paladin to do just that, you will be sorely disappointed.

---

Here's the basic problem though - a lot of us did make the conscious choice and rolled Paladins when the game launched because we were informed that we could be "tanks", and wrongly or not many of us interpreted that to mean "MT on raids." I followed this game for dix months before Beta started and every indicitation was that we, as a plate wearing "tank" class, would be able to MT raid content. No one ever said, "only Guardians and Berserkers" will be able to MT raid content. I don't think saying "We have a specific off-tanking raid role" is good enough. I think we need to continue to fight for the Paladin abilities we need to do the job. We should be able to MT raid content. Guardians shouldn't be the "clear" choice. There ought to BE a choice...

[Sirlutt]

---

Rocksthemic wrote:

---

Iustus wrote:

Paladins can heal. This means in semi-easy but very long fights, paladins have an edge. Paladins can not heal much, but even a little is enough to solo some things that a non-healing fighter could not win.

Paladins have an agro edge vs group mobs with the right group makeup (although berzerkers are probably on par, plus they can take the hits better).

Overall, paladins (and shadowknights) seem to be suffering right now from the problem of too many tank classes in EQ2. There doesnt seem to be a way to make them all viable, so SOE has to pick a couple and make them worthy tanks, and let the rest just linger.

I must put the disclaimer that I am a bit bitter about the game right now, as my main job on raids is to warm the bench. This is a big step down from being main tank during the end of DoF expansion, but the sad fact is that paladins bring very little to most raids in EQ2, which are all basically DPS tests. The more dps you can get with a group of 24 people, while still keeping the MT alive and surviving the AoEs, the more success you will have. The sad reality is that a paladin is only a liability in these situations.

-I

---

I will disagree with paladins being a raid liability. We serve as awesome aggro soakers, which is an underestimated part of raiding. We try and have the high dps in a group with a troubador (like wizzie and warlock, assassin and ranger) but the troubador hate decreaser only works on non-fighters. If you have a paladin in a group with a monk/bruiser, you can soak their aggro nicely, allowing them to go full out and thus contribute lots of dps to the raid that they ordinarily wouldn't be able to do. Also swashbucklers can dump their hate onto you, allowing them to do more dps than they would be able to do otherwise. All this time, you are able to group heal after AE's, single target heal and ward the tank to help out, rez people, and you have 2 different spells that stun EPIC targets on raids. You see pardas casting his AE? You can interrupt it if you time it right. Not only this, but in a situation where offtanking is required, we can fill that roll quite nicely, allowing your Gaurdian to not have to tank 3 mobs at a time, but rather 2. This is a huge difference. Yes, we will never be the front line tank for most mobs as it stands now, but that doesn't mean we don't help out in our own way. That is only raid utility. In groups we shine even more becuase we by far keep some of the best aggro with proper group make up, and can tank any 1 group content as well as any other tank out there. Thundaarr Unrest

---

Very nice post... alot of fighter classes play down the things they can do to help win an encounter.. guardians included... i've been discovering lately alot more things i can accomplish when not tanking.. not as many as a Pally, but it can help make a difference... well done.

[Aamad]

"So solo wise were not that great I would say equal  to a guard"

 

I'd have to disagree there. I solo my [Removed for Content] off in SoS and can take just about any green named in there...and some of the blues. My guardian friend who has comparable gear can't do that. I have a blast solo, and can accomplish quite a bit. As far as raid main tanking yes we have some issues hehe, but Thundaarr summed up what we are good at very well. I love playing a paladin.

[Torum]

Yep and I know a 70th level guard who can solo white con heroics and I play both classes and there dps is pretty much the same.  Both classes have the ability if set up properly but its so slow no one choses too.   Errr solo that is, and once again this is about why chose a pally MT not alternatives for the class in a raid or other.  Also I dont know many uber raid guilds that are tank heavy usually like 5 or 6 if that and all dps, healers and casters but thats my expierence with them. 

 

And yes there are some things we can do such as heal, dps and utility but why take a class on a raid that can do those things semi good but not as well as the classes designed too... 

[Sirlutt]

---

Torum76 wrote:

Yep and I know a 70th level guard who can solo white con heroics and I play both classes and there dps is pretty much the same.  Both classes have the ability if set up properly but its so slow no one choses too.   Errr solo that is, and once again this is about why chose a pally MT not alternatives for the class in a raid or other.  Also I dont know many uber raid guilds that are tank heavy usually like 5 or 6 if that and all dps, healers and casters but thats my expierence with them. 

 

And yes there are some things we can do such as heal, dps and utility but why take a class on a raid that can do those things semi good but not as well as the classes designed too... 

---

i know alot of of bruisers/monks who can do that and more.. your forgetting that Guardian has just about the best equipment in the game..  same equipment on a pally would be having them doing the same, if not better.

[Lairdragna]

As far as group tanks we can be VERY good...  IF your group is not DPS crazy.  The other day I was in a group with a mystic, an assassin and two wizards.  When they all open on the pull its lights out for the group.  We can place amends on one person and soak up a chunk of their hate.  We have two taunts, one single and one aoe.  We generate a good amount of hate via wards and heals on ourselves or others if the mob switches to them.  If the mob is on us those wards and heals can and likely will be interrupted if there is a group pounding on you.  Even with taunts at adept 3 or higher, they can be resisted.  LOTS can go wrong if you're not paying attention to your tank and if the tank is not communicating... The best way to go is to tell your group to let you rip the taunts a couple times, throw a successful ward on yourself and use a couple stuns before really opening up.  Once you have aggro you're not likely to lose it, but if you don't have it before they open up... pray someone has FD.

[Pathin Merrithay]

---

Kalera wrote:

---

Pathin Merrithay wrote:

As Leawyn stated, you make a choice when you choose to play a paladin. We are tanks, yes. But we are not the best choice for raid tanks. If you go into game at this point creating a paladin to do just that, you will be sorely disappointed.

---

Here's the basic problem though - a lot of us did make the conscious choice and rolled Paladins when the game launched because we were informed that we could be "tanks", and wrongly or not many of us interpreted that to mean "MT on raids."

I followed this game for dix months before Beta started and every indicitation was that we, as a plate wearing "tank" class, would be able to MT raid content. No one ever said, "only Guardians and Berserkers" will be able to MT raid content.

I don't think saying "We have a specific off-tanking raid role" is good enough. I think we need to continue to fight for the Paladin abilities we need to do the job. We should be able to MT raid content. Guardians shouldn't be the "clear" choice. There ought to BE a choice...

---

I'm not so positive about this. I'm certain I'll take flak for this (Especially because it's never been my desire to tank end-game raid content. A sentiment not shared by and large by alot of people here.) but I -do- think guardians should be the clear choice. Guardians have nothing going for them but their ability to mitgate and take damage. This game changes constantly and that often means shifting visions for the classes within their area of expertise. All fighters are 'tank' classes. All can conceivably tank high end instances with little difficult assuming player skill of course. All can tank and tank well in standard groups.

Raiding is a very specified area though, and one that quite honestly a fairly large majority of players will never do regularly. (And this is coming from the standpoint of a paladin in a high-end raiding guild) You can't balance classes for the game at large based on the small percentage that players that do it. You have to 'niche' classes to give them places to shine in each circumstance. For guardians, that happens to be the MT role on raids. For paladins, that happens to be the off-tank/back-up/buff tank. Are each interchangable? Yes. I remain firmly convinced a Paladin can MT any endgame mob. Will one be as effective in one role as the other? No, probably not quite as good.

This is how it should be. After LU 13, many of us had to make adjustments for our sudden lack of solo playability, but so did alot of other classes. Our role hasn't changed, we're tanks, but within that realm, you need to find a specific niche. Steel made some excellent points. I think we do need to be made more viable tanks then Berserkers via an increase to our spell abilities to compensate for our miniscule damage capability. But other then that, we actually have things pretty damned good if you take the abilities you do have and -use- them.

[Caphi2]

>Guardians have nothing going for them but their ability to mitgate and take damage. That's the same tired [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] argument that Warriors in EQ1 made for years. The bottom line is, if that's true then it is Guardians that are broken vis a vis utility, not tank balance overall.  All four plate tank classes should have tools for tanking the big mobs. If Guardians are one trick ponies, fix them. Tank balance should not be allowed to deteriorate to EQ1 levels. That said, I don't think raid tanking is all that fouled up. A few minor tweaks and all would be good. At least there is nothing in EQ2 as absolutely broken as /disc defensive was......

Message Edited by Caphi2 on 05-03-2006 09:44 PM

[Rakenso]

I play paladin and am very happy with him. At first I thought that they kind of sucked because there was no point to them. Everytime I would solo pvp (even though I know I cant) it was worse than I thought. Also when I was grouped I went down fast. Heals were very hard to come out for healers cause I couldnt keep the aggro and I couldnt get healed either.

 

All

[Rakenso]

I play paladin and am very happy with him. At first I thought that they kind of sucked because there was no point to them. Everytime I would solo pvp (even though I know I cant) it was worse than I thought. Also when I was grouped I went down fast. Heals were very hard to come out for healers cause I couldnt keep the aggro and I couldnt get healed either.

 

All I

[Rakenso]

I play paladin and am very happy with him. At first I thought that they kind of sucked because there was no point to them. Everytime I would solo pvp (even though I know I cant) it was worse than I thought. Also when I was grouped I went down fast. Heals were very hard to come out for healers cause I couldnt keep the aggro and I couldnt get healed either.

 

All I have to say is that Im wrong. ...... First off once I reached level 22 I was getting some major armor that was imbued. I finally have some fabled and legendary items. I concentrate on STR, WIS, STA. Paladins have major resists towards magic. Taking out wizards and necros to me even at orange now are too easy sometimes. After buffing myself at level 25 now. I have over 209 STR, which is major dps. I critical for over 130+, Also I have WIS at 130 when I place my knights stance adept 1. Also my STA. At level 25 I have 1500hp. In other words because of my wisdom I can resist 80% maybe a little less around 72% of necros and wizzy spells at orange and yellow aggro. I love my pally and i even have armor with plus piercing for those nice assassins that are also kind of not a problem anymore. I love my pally now and yesterday 5/03/2006 I was in a battle in TS and everything was awesome since I was one of the 3 left standing dismantling everything. All I know now is that I hunt down all necros out there as best I can.

 

So just to let you know. If you know what your doing, you can push the best out of every class. If you want to be a pally get ready to invest in a lot of money to get your heals and combat arts to adept 1. After that kills will be very easy. Also maintain yourself at knights stance to live way longer. Never place STR buff. Doesnt do much for you and also doesnt really give more dps since pally arent great regardless. Pallys are fun and they can tank very very well. Concentrate on a set of attributes but escpecially in WIS for more resist on magic and better and more effecient casts.

 

Pick your own class that you know you will enjoy and nt because everyone is picking him and remember that no matter what all of them are good. If you have the money or invest enough time your character will eventually be one of the top.

 

HAVE FUN.

 

P.S If anyone wants to chill in Negafen my character is Rakenso.

 

Please tell me your opinions.!

[Rakenso]

Guys sorry for the 3 posts but the forum kept making some weird glitches and apperantly it was repeating my stuff.

 

SORRY

[Anzak]

---

Pathin Merrithay wrote:

---

Kalera wrote:

---

Pathin Merrithay wrote:

As Leawyn stated, you make a choice when you choose to play a paladin. We are tanks, yes. But we are not the best choice for raid tanks. If you go into game at this point creating a paladin to do just that, you will be sorely disappointed.

---

Here's the basic problem though - a lot of us did make the conscious choice and rolled Paladins when the game launched because we were informed that we could be "tanks", and wrongly or not many of us interpreted that to mean "MT on raids." I followed this game for dix months before Beta started and every indicitation was that we, as a plate wearing "tank" class, would be able to MT raid content. No one ever said, "only Guardians and Berserkers" will be able to MT raid content. I don't think saying "We have a specific off-tanking raid role" is good enough. I think we need to continue to fight for the Paladin abilities we need to do the job. We should be able to MT raid content. Guardians shouldn't be the "clear" choice. There ought to BE a choice...

---

I'm not so positive about this. I'm certain I'll take flak for this (Especially because it's never been my desire to tank end-game raid content. A sentiment not shared by and large by alot of people here.) but I -do- think guardians should be the clear choice. Guardians have nothing going for them but their ability to mitgate and take damage. This game changes constantly and that often means shifting visions for the classes within their area of expertise. All fighters are 'tank' classes. All can conceivably tank high end instances with little difficult assuming player skill of course. All can tank and tank well in standard groups.

Raiding is a very specified area though, and one that quite honestly a fairly large majority of players will never do regularly. (And this is coming from the standpoint of a paladin in a high-end raiding guild) You can't balance classes for the game at large based on the small percentage that players that do it. You have to 'niche' classes to give them places to shine in each circumstance. For guardians, that happens to be the MT role on raids. For paladins, that happens to be the off-tank/back-up/buff tank. Are each interchangable? Yes. I remain firmly convinced a Paladin can MT any endgame mob. Will one be as effective in one role as the other? No, probably not quite as good.

This is how it should be. After LU 13, many of us had to make adjustments for our sudden lack of solo playability, but so did alot of other classes. Our role hasn't changed, we're tanks, but within that realm, you need to find a specific niche. Steel made some excellent points. I think we do need to be made more viable tanks then Berserkers via an increase to our spell abilities to compensate for our miniscule damage capability. But other then that, we actually have things pretty damned good if you take the abilities you do have and -use- them.

---

This is exactly the kind of thinking that is keeping Pallies away from raid tanking.  Let me ask you a few questions. 1) Why should Guards be one trick ponies?  Honestly they do have some nice utility and equal or better DPS than us. 2) Pallies and Guards were listed by Moorgard as the top level of tanks with Zerkers, So what is keeping us up with the Gaurds rather than pushing us below zerkers in terms of tanking? 3) Why the heck do Rogues get a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Mit AA yet the classes that should need it don't?  Hell with the Mit AAs a Rogue is still going to be about 1K less mit that a tank so why even bother? 4) Where is the situational tanking?  And don't say groups and soloing since SOEs claim was in terms of raids every fighter could tank and in some situations certain classes would be more desireable. 5) Why is it so hard to make resists a realistic distiction between the classes?  Needed resist levels should be easy to help with AEs and such and to keep you as an option when you don't have the right class.  High resists should be hard to get but do able with a lose of both HP and mit but still leaving all tanks as an option for all mobs.  Extreme resists IE 80% at max level and higher are restricted only to the class with the resist buff. 6) Why are there no raid mobs that do more damage in resists than in melee?  This where a true tank distinction can come in.  Though since currently any tanking can get pretty much any resist to 10k if they want it would mean that any tank could tank the mob the same and actually avoidance tanks would have the advantage as they would not get hit as often but still resist the same as a plate tank.

[OrcSlayer96]

I hear ya Anzak, here is my slant on your questions:

 

(1&2)  I really dont subscribe to the guardians and berzerkers being one trick ponies, it is more of creatures of habit being use to only the main tank then anything else.  True the guardians do have some combat arts that should be tweaked, but most of those are similar to pallie spells that should be tweaked.  If SOE would only fix the intercept line for fighters, they would have tremendous potential for offtanking and protection of other classes(like protecting that wizard with intercept but use the guardians mit for the check)  As it is right now versus tier 7 mobs the inherent skills like the mit buffs for 30 seconds/tower of stone and a few others make it easier as a raid to have a guardian or berzerker(minus tiwer of stone) tank in like gear.  All we can do for now is keep posting for positive changes for us and hope that there is a logical plan for us in raiding as mt in the future.

(3)  is that mit aa a ability from the swashbuckler class or another?  If from the swashbuckler i could see that as benefical, especially when soloing.  Any more i try to ask for any changes in other classes but try to ask for positive changes in our class, it just opens up too much flames from the accused class.  I know you are not asking for a nerf Anzak just stating my opinion on it, heheh.

(4)  about the only situational tanking i have seen for us has been the black queen before KOS, where having a large magic resist was more important than a extra 300 mitigation.  I still hope they will change/revamp or add content that is all or almost all damage from different spell types:  heat/cold/mental/magic/disease/poison/divine with little or no melee damage.  There have been enough posts that SOE can not claim they have not ssen this request...

(5)  I agree also on the resists, by now i have deciced that our stamina end AA divine aura is too nerfed to matter much for the 8 points you spend for it, i almost wish they would just revamp the spell and give us a passive ability that gave you a 2,000 to 4,000 boost on all your resists instead.  We are labeled as caster/resist tanks and that change would allow us to keep higher mit armor and retain high resists too.

(6)  The avoidance tanks are not faring well against tier 7 mobs at all from what i can see.  Not factoring in the lovely mitigation debuff abilities that seem to be on every other mob in KOS, the epics are hitting way too much and hard for a raid equipped avoidance tank to take.  In group sitations, the avoidance tanks are doing good, but the raid mobs are just too pwerful anymore.

[Anzak]

Steel,     Yeah I was not calling for a nerf on any class.  And Brigands are the one with the Mit buff.  While I can see if for soloing I think there would be better AAs they could give to brigands to help with soloing that extra mit.  I just found it odd that brigands get a mit buff and yet the tanks who really need it don't. I don't see the black queen as situational.  Sure you need high magic resist but that is doable with any class.  If you have about 5K magic resist which is not hard to get on any tank then it really comes down to that massive pierce attack she has and being able to not explode your head before the DPS can kill her. I don't see the point to giving us a massive resist buff it is already easy for any tank class to max out resist so adding this just means we could do it without gear changes which is not that big of an issue since not much is lost in these gear changes.  But yes our end line AAs are useless.  Divine Aura is broken and fearless can be gotten with items (which is what I said day one would happen) As for avoidance tanks I was talking if there was a mob that did large damage in resists and had low auto-attack.  In this case Avoidance tanks would have the advantage because of resist capping.  It would basically add up to a best of both worlds since they could resist as much as a plate tank but also avoid twice as much since the melee damage would be a non-issue. So far in T7 here is the thing I have seen.  Massive debuffs that need to be removed quickly or the tank dies, and High crits.  The debuffs all we can do is have healers remove them as they land and hope you don't get hit between.  The High crits that is another issue and it looks like rogues are going to be required with their de-crit AA maxed.  Though when the tank is getting crit for over 7K with normal hits running over 5K they are not going to last long even with heals being spammed.

[Torum]

Nope I didnt forget,  I said that a guardian and pally in my opinon have pretty equal dps and if set up properly they can solo higher con mobs but it takes so long people chose not too

[OrcSlayer96]

Yeah the whole mitigation AA stuff is really odd, in beta they had the brawler classes with a mitigation AA but there was a uproar and they took that out.  In beta we had a resist AA that we could put ranks in and they took it out for the health percentage i think.  I would truely like to hear the answer from the dev(s) responsable for the the complete change around of divine aura from beta also.  The resist proposal was just a idea i had in the fly, i still think if they didnt want to give us a new ward spell they could of morphed divine aura to be a percentage ward for a 30 sec duration and a 2-3 minute recast requireing a essence consumption and be self only.  It would actually be a AA that we could effectively use in raid situtaions to help us tank, imagine that concept, heheheh.  Course it could be worse guys, we could be bards or enchanters now realing from the after affects of LU 23 proc changes nerfing their dps down to a sliver of what they had. 

 

On a side note Anzak, i saw your posted stats on another thread, grats on the health bud, my pallie is only averaging around 7,100 health and 4,000 power roughly in offense mode and applaud those numbers.  I really need to put some time and start up the mark of the awakening and claymore line quests.  That and finish 5 heritage quests and about 100 plus quests in KOS.

 

Yeah with your clarification on avoidance tanks, i could see them being pretty uber in those situations, just seems like the big mobs love nailing you with plenty of melee damage that is hard to avoid in addition to the multiple dots that are practically recast on you as quick as the healers can cure you.

[DanaDark]

I think that the main reason raiding is a problem for tank classes is because of the 24 member limit. I think there needs to be a change to allow more groups in a raid. In EQ1 you rarely saw that problem because so many could attend the raids.

Im still a little torn between guardian and paladin he he

[Anzak]

Thanks steel.  My numbers arn't great but well at level 69 I have about 200 more mit and 1K more HP raid buffed that just about any other tank in my guild.  I think there is one with higher Mit but not by a lot and my HP more than makes up for the difference.