Proposed changes to Paladins...our future!

uzhiel feathered serpe · 04-30-2005, 05:23 AM

OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads.

The devs propose making us HEAVY tanks, along with Guardians. This means not only do we get our DPS nerfed, but also our Agility. In return, they will adjust us to be more inline with Gaurdians, which means better taunts, more mitigation, more hitpoints, etc.

Now, I need help. I do not wish to continue arguing our cause, unless this is truly what the Paladin community wants. I personally like Paladins the way they are, with some minor changes to our def buffs and our aggro skills.

How does the rest of the community feel?

Some Paladins have contacted me who are worried about the loss of DPS, because if were not the MT, then what is our role? to Rez? to DPS?

Some Paladins have contacted me and stated that they would rather give up the DPS and agi, so we can tank as well as Guards.

What is your opinion? My posting has gotten the attention of some of the Devs. Lets capitalize on that.

The only way we can change our class is to do it together, guys. Strength in numbers!! please post your opinions! it takes 1 or 2 minutes, because these changes will affect us for a long time.

Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.

Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 04-29-2005 06:28 PM

AzraelAzgard · 04-30-2005, 06:45 AM

Im fine the way we are but also wouldnt mind being upgraded a little to be more in-line with Guardians, so far Paladins can tank any encounter as well as a Guardian if they know what they are doing and everyone with you is also capable.

But there are problems, especially with our taunts, they seem too weak from mid 20's onwards, there are many times where you just cant put aggro back, use every taunt every ability on mob, heal person being attacked, rescue on mob, nothing happens SMILEY

Not sure if this is a bug but I know Guardians have been able to hold aggro far better on groups of mobs. Issue that usually happens with me is I hold aggro fine till end and the last mob of a group always seems to go aggro a caster even with me chaining the group taunts throughout and using HOs constantly, not sure if this is a bug but its very annoying especially when that last mob of a group is a named.

I wouldnt mind being a heavier tank and losing a bit of avoidance to go more down the road of Mitigation atm we seem to have been mitigation nerfed, Iw as 56% mitigation before LU7 now 46% with same gear and stats.

So Id like to go somewhere inbetween, not all the way to practically a Guardian but our Taunts need to be addressed, our dps isnt mega but lets not make it tiny like poor Templars, we often arent the main choice for raids, you wont be able to make a completly fair system where everyone can tank unless you only have the 4 baseic archtypes SMILEY

So we need to keep some dps as its often our role as a support class being able to do lots of things.

One main thing to really help us perform and bring more balance in would be to allow a Range slot item for Knights.

All Scouts can have a Range item, Fighters can except for Knights, why cant we? I dont see why not, the imbalance with stats here is very annoying and being able to have a bow would be great, for different styles of pulling, opening up a lot more worthwhile quests, and most of all to address the stats imbalance.

Also think Mages and Priests should be allowed a symbol type range slot item but thats an issue for another thread SMILEY

So my vote would be to stick us somewhere inbetween going all the way with this closer to Guardian proposal, and staying pretty much as we are SMILEY

TheSarge · 04-30-2005, 10:10 AM

for the love of god... dont' take away my DPS!!! Don't Nerf the paladin!

Managal · 04-30-2005, 11:00 AM

I'm a new pally, so I don't know what the end game is like. But, I read the forums, and from what I understand, we can compensate for just about everything (with the right gear/team) except taunting. If we could hold agro on major encounters, it would be better than less avoidance and more mitigation.

prisoner · 04-30-2005, 12:11 PM

I think the best things that can happen to the paladin class are two things. First, fix aggro in general. It often seems buggy at best, especially in situations where a tank unloads their taunts and still can't get aggro (common to all tank classes, many discussions on other areas of this board). Second, from many threads here, its apparent that paladins can tank fine in groups except for the situations named above, and can tank raid mobs well, but its said that we run out of power pretty fast and then we are sitting ducks. I think we need some power efficient taunts. Since we have to use buffs for half of our taunts and those buffs take a good chunk of power, we burn through it fast. Perhaps they can tone down the aggro on buffs themselves but increase the effectiveness of our pure taunts since they are the most efficient in terms of power usage.

I am a paladin and I wear heavy armor yes, but I do not want to be a guardian, else I would have created one.

-Increase taunt efficiency and effectiveness

-Wards could use some looking into. They are definate power hogs and as such should be much more useful than they currently are. I have a feeling however that wards will be getting some love when they start to release the priest balancing, since shamans are in dire need of ward love as well.

-I am happy with our current dps but if its going to be nerfed (which seems the likely case) maybe we can compramise and get a boost when using a 2h instead when an offtank. I don't mind being low dps with a 1h and shield if they do some work on taunts as stated above.

17

Awlis · 04-30-2005, 12:21 PM

Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1.

I would be very upset if they moved us to be inline with guardians, if I had wanted to be top tank I would have played a guardian, I dont and I didnt so please dont change my class that radically when many of us are 40 and beyond.

Personally I dont think there is anything that needs doing, you may think taunt is broke, however you arent designed to tank as well or taunt as well, cos we have heals dps and a squire! We cant expect as a community to have dps and heals and then ask for defense and taunt to be inline with a guard, that is real cake and eat it grass is greener stuff. All classes are to be 'balanced' this means we do one thing better and other things worse, I love where the paladin is, please please leave, if you want to tank like a guard then go make a guard, if you wanna tank like a guard dps like a pally and heal like a cleric then you are just asking way too much.

prisoner · 04-30-2005, 01:05 PM

Awlis wrote:

Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1.

I would be very upset if they moved us to be inline with guardians, if I had wanted to be top tank I would have played a guardian, I dont and I didnt so please dont change my class that radically when many of us are 40 and beyond.

Personally I dont think there is anything that needs doing, you may think taunt is broke, however you arent designed to tank as well or taunt as well, cos we have heals dps and a squire! We cant expect as a community to have dps and heals and then ask for defense and taunt to be inline with a guard, that is real cake and eat it grass is greener stuff. All classes are to be 'balanced' this means we do one thing better and other things worse, I love where the paladin is, please please leave, if you want to tank like a guard then go make a guard, if you wanna tank like a guard dps like a pally and heal like a cleric then you are just asking way too much.

The highlighted line stuck out alot for me, and I have to disagree. Currently no, we are not designed to tank or taunt as well, but we should be. It doesn't necessarly have to be done via armor mitigation or even defense buffs, but we should all tank well and taunt well, all tanks of all flavors. So far we are in a pretty decent position, I wont argue that, but there is definate room for improvent for all tanks. We don't want to tank "like a guard," we want to be as effective as one.

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Azakiel · 04-30-2005, 02:35 PM

What prisoner 17 said SMILEY

Yes our taunts are not as effective and yes our buffs and wards use up a lot of power. I find that simply altering my playing style slightly (buff and taunt and maybe some dps) while being the main tank keeps aggro just fine, so upgrading or making the taunts more effective will save us some power and will then move us closer to being a guard........should we give the guards some heals and wards?

I like my class exactly as it is. Just hit 40 and still learning new tricks on how to get round the power issues and aggro management every day. I find it terribly boring standing at the front without even having to put some thought into keeping the aggro, conserving power and doing half decent dps at the same time - it's more fun if it's more challenging.

Please fix all the problems with our existing combat arts and spells (and there is one almighty list of them) before even thinking of making game changing class changes!

Whack Anything 40 Pally

Neriak

Awlis · 04-30-2005, 02:54 PM

I have to disagree prisoner, if we get to tank as well as guards then they should get to heal as well as us, you gain in one area to lose in another, you must see it can't be balanced or fair if we get to do as well as what is meant to be the top tank in tanking as well as being able to heal and do good dps. If we do it as well you have to ask the question... why be a guardian, when you can be a paladin tank as well and heal??

Similarily we cant complain about our dps and want equalling out with warlocks and assasins. I feel the paladin is a well balanced class, please leave it alone.

Lastly re taunts, its my opinion that often it poor play by other people in the party that cause taunt issues. I recently had a wiz that kept on getting aggro.. why? she was aoe the group as I pulled it in, solution told her to back off on nukes till I had good aggro, gave me 15 secs when I reached fight spot to get aggro then let off, healing aggro can similarly be reduced by self healing in the middle or at the end of taunts, I have little problems with aggro once I let the overnuker die a couple and then politelty point out the aggro issue is theirs and not mine!!

Troodon · 04-30-2005, 03:48 PM

I can apprecaite where you're comming from Awlis, for short fights we are fairly well rounded though not without problems, but its when you begin to start fighting protracted combats be it on raids or against particular mobs which take time to bring down that the flaw in our design become apparent: we have a restricted number of taunts and have rely upon buffs/heals/wards for their hate generation effect. Everyone uses such, but at least in my experience Crusaders have to rely upon such much more significantly. The problem with routinely relying upon buffs etc for hate management is that its a hardly power efficient strategy, hence the truism that Paladin's are sprinters, that we burn through power. If Paladins were simply Guardians-lite with heals, then it would be a problem if we were boosted in such aspects to the level of the Guardian. However, even beyond the difference that we cant dual wield etc etc. they dont have gaping holes where we get abilities, they have slows, power drains, groupwide buffs and significantly more taunts. The problem with such discussions is that we players are party to so little information about what the devs intend, so arguing based on the current status quo is awkward, we can only state our case, try to highlight our problems and hope that when the dust settles that everything is ok. For some reason Paladin's dont seem to be very vocal on the forums and thus Im very grateful to Uzhiel for taking a stand. Often we're dismissed as the noob-class with vague handwaving about being holy warriors. There seem to be many misconceptions about what we can and cant do, about the effectiveness of our abilities even amoung the self touted spokesmen for the other classes. This is a problem because when it comes to ballancing such half informed off the cuff remarks are taken into account if they're not rebutted. But anyway, personally on the whole I would agree that we're well rounded, however our fundemental flaw is our hate management.

prisoner · 04-30-2005, 04:51 PM

Awlis wrote:

I have to disagree prisoner, if we get to tank as well as guards then they should get to heal as well as us, you gain in one area to lose in another, you must see it can't be balanced or fair if we get to do as well as what is meant to be the top tank in tanking as well as being able to heal and do good dps. If we do it as well you have to ask the question... why be a guardian, when you can be a paladin tank as well and heal??

Similarily we cant complain about our dps and want equalling out with warlocks and assasins. I feel the paladin is a well balanced class, please leave it alone.

Lastly re taunts, its my opinion that often it poor play by other people in the party that cause taunt issues. I recently had a wiz that kept on getting aggro.. why? she was aoe the group as I pulled it in, solution told her to back off on nukes till I had good aggro, gave me 15 secs when I reached fight spot to get aggro then let off, healing aggro can similarly be reduced by self healing in the middle or at the end of taunts, I have little problems with aggro once I let the overnuker die a couple and then politelty point out the aggro issue is theirs and not mine!!

I find it disturbing that you continue to believe that we shouldn't be able to tank as well. ALL should be able to tank well, just in different manners. A guardians superb defensive buffs and skills allow him to finish a fight alive. A paladins heals and wards allow him to finish a fight alive. It doesn't matter if we take the bus or a plane, as long as we reach the same destination. There shouldn't ever be a question as to choose one tank over another. It shouldn't be "oh crap no guards around, we can't raid/group" , it should be "Oh cool (tank class inserted here) just logged in, lets go raid!"

No paladin's here are wanting to compare to warlocks or scouts. Thats rediculous. I agree that our dps is fine the way it is, but fighters as a whole are going to take a drop in their dps, its inevitable. Scouts have been complaining much too long that fighters are out-damaging them, and they have a right to be upset. We shouldn't be gimped, but we probably shouldn't be where we are at either. Finding the right balance for both is the challenge.

Finally, there IS an issue with aggro and its buggy. Its not always someone being incompitent. I have tested it myself, as have many others throughout these boards. Its not just paladins, its all tanks. Fixing that will help out alot. Sometimes people in your party will get aggro for no apparent reason and its nigh impossible to get it back until the mob is dead. If you have an idiot wizard nuking before you are ready for them to, thats a whole other issue. I think that we should indeed have to work and be vigilant in keeping aggro, but we shouldn't have to power dump in order to get aggro once lost, and sometimes we lose it all to easily.

My main point is this: Different but equal, and thats what we should strive for.

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steventhearmy70 · 04-30-2005, 05:09 PM

My opinion is that I think its wrong to take away from a class. You have been paying money to play as that character and putting in alot of time and then to have him all of a sudden not do what he has been doing is wrong. I think they should make it as even as possible, but make only by adding to the classes, not taking away. This maybe dumb, but i think of it as buying a car, you love your car, driving it, and then all of sudden, the dealership takes the car back and takes away horsepower. Then gives it back to you, dont think you'd be a happy camper. I love being a Pally, lvl 41 here, just dont like the fact every week it seems, that we get weaker and weaker. Just my 2 cents.

Seomon · 04-30-2005, 05:31 PM

uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:

OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads.

So you're like the monk troll, Gage? SMILEY

But seriously, personally I'd rather be close to where we are now. We aren't Guardians, because they have more +Defense than we can get, meaning they take less damage. We take more damage, but that's why we get our heals. I have 2 issues (right now) since we're basically going to be comparing ourselves to Guardians now:

Aggro Management and Power

We cannot hold aggro like a Guardian can without spending vast amounts of power, and even then we're not as good at holding aggro. I am constantly taunting (all 2 of them), buffing (generally just use 2), warding (+hate plus the ward aggro), shield bashing (+hate and a whole 20 damage), and healing (rarely use heals for +hate unless I'm raiding). Everything except for the taunts take up a ton of mana, and that's just not right. Our heals should probably be toned down some (except for the insta-heal line, it needs a huge bump), and cost a lot less mana, and our buffs and wards should definitely cost less mana.

I could really care less if our DPS dropped if I see power costs reduced so we can actually last a whole fight without going oop without ever using a combat art. In a raid situation as the MT, I never use combat arts anyways, and our solo would basically stay the same if our heals cost less power.

Belgor · 04-30-2005, 10:30 PM

Yes, I want us to be a preffered tank as guardiansare now, but not neccessarily against the same encounters. Could be us being preffered to single targets and them to multiple targets or whatever.

I chose the fighter archtype to tank, not to do dps. And I cant believe anyone choosing a paladin if they wanted dps.

Karlen · 04-30-2005, 11:48 PM

I think Paladins are well balanced now. It is true that our taunts are a bit weak but we have lots of other advantages and weak taunts generally don't prove to be an insurmountable problem. On the other hand, changes are coming: DPS "adjusting/balancing", possible changes to wards, possible changes to mitigation. If changes in some abilities require changes in the others, I don't have an issue with that. It is impossible to say whether the changes are good until we have seen them and can compare them to changes in other classes. Paladins are not guardians. But I would hope in the end that we could tank pretty much anything that they can, and vice-versa. Also, balancing could mean increasing or decreasing. The nominal or absolute level of power/ability doesn't matter -- only the overall level of power as compared with other classes/sub-classes and npcs.

trout · 05-01-2005, 12:12 AM

In short, I prefer to be left as is.

I may be in the minority but I like playing the role of off tank. I enjoy the versitliy of our skills and being able to contribute dps in a meaningfull way.

I like the way my character solos.

I rarley have argo managment issues but admittadly, I'm only lvl 30 now and therefor no expirence in endgame content. At this point in my game I have yet to see a gaurdian signifigantly out perform me as a MT. However as I said before, given the choice I will OT for a gaurd of equal lvl, gear, knowledge. It just seems to me that as an OT the gaurd brings very little to the table in comparison to a pally.

Boli32 · 05-01-2005, 12:40 AM

I have read through most of the proposed changes / rants and discussions and really in the end it boils down to 3 things:

1 - Wards to be actually useful in absorbing damage.As it stands they are really good for regaining agro - but that's about it... a high power taunt that doesn't do enough to warrant its power cost.

2 - A re-evaluation of agro and how it worksIf we are going to loose some DPS - fine but I don't want to have to spam taunt (with our two taunts) and have agro snatched away from us every time the mages fire a nuke off. Some way of "taunting buff" which continues for a few seconds after each taunt where our damage counts for DOUBLE the hate would be ideal

3 - The ability to use our spells in a MT role as well as in an off-tank role.If we loose the ability to cast spells (this includes heals) whilst Main tanking because of continual interrupts would basically be the worst thing that could be done for the class… I was outraged when the philosophy “get hit more for less damage” came out and wearing heavy armour would hinder our ability to avoid interrupts. Thankfully Kite shields have made us more effective at avoiding blows – although rightly I am keeping a VERY close eye on the test server. And my ranting discussions have dwindled since this news came out.

Frankly I don't care if we lost half of our DPS... as long as this did not cause even MORE agro problems than we already face (#2) as long as I can perform #3 in combat do whatever you want to our mitigation / avoidance scores. #1 would be pretty useful but we have lived without wards since we hit 25 and we can live without them for a bit longer. In truth I believe Paladin's will see little of the combat changes we were never really "the best" in anything - our power heavy abilities are a nice way to keep that in check - we have to choose every spell wisely and in truth that is the best thing I like about the Paladin. If #3 is possible after the re-balance and we can still hold agro... pffft then we are O.K.

Message Edited by boli on 04-30-2005 09:49 PM

Gaige · 05-01-2005, 04:39 AM

Seomon wrote:

So you're like the monk troll, Gage?

OMG I'm famous!! SMILEY

Nathayle · 05-01-2005, 05:28 AM

I really hope they dont make drastic changes to our class. I realize that it can be a problem holding aggro in many cases, but that can be fixed by adjusting our taunts. Somone had a great idea when they said that if they had to adjust our dps, at least give us a bonus when using 2 handed weapons. I have always thought that carrying a shield should give a better raise to deffense anyway.

I believe that if surveyed most paladins would say that they are happy overall with the class as it is, aside from the hate problem and the power draining wards and such.

I know that this is probably not an issue to most of you, but I'm wondering how any changes will effect our chances in arena combat/pvp? I know that we don't know that it will happen, what with the vague referances to indirect pvp and such, but im curious.

AlleySpa · 05-01-2005, 06:50 AM

I believe it's as simple as:

A). Fix our taunts. It's infuriating that a guard 6+ levels below me can pull aggro with one taunt and I spam but can't get it, this hurts us as off-tanks/secondary tanks. Most mobs in the game are generally evil you are telling me that the paladin a true symbol of a holy warrior can't annoy these evil based mobs, instead he's totally ignored.

B). Our power costs are ridiculous as many have stated before, our wards/heals are suppose to make up for our short comings in avoidance and mitigation yet using these will drain us before the mob is even half dead. (at least most lvl.50 mobs)

Other than these two things i'm very happy with my pallie, however these things hurt us the most, as is we currently take more damage than warriors as well as use more power that's a huge imbalance.

AzraelAzgard · 05-01-2005, 07:46 AM

Better taunts

More Power Efficent spells atm some are very in-efficent, I dont cast lots of mine because they are so poor in mana:dmg ratio.

Let us use bows, missing the range slot hurts SMILEY

HellRaisinWench · 05-01-2005, 08:45 AM

I've spent alot of time gettin my pally up to 46... along the way i've found thati'm a betta bakup tank, then i am a main... Don't get me wrong, when the time comes, i can tank most things...but we aren't main tanks,we are there to help the party with our buffs, add sum healin in, whilst doin a bit of damage...

When i grp, its normally with a lvl 50 zerker as MT, i've had times,by not doin anything getting aggro (if sum1 can explain this be welcome)... As a class atm we are preety good, yeah boost taunts, change sum lvls of power consumption, or give us more power...

I remember when i was in my teens and mid 20'smost grps, wanted a pally... but at higher lvls most grp don't want us because we have no set area(ie. dps, healing etc...) If u wanna do sumthin for us leave us as is with slight changes to taunts...or aleast make the squire useful, ie. so he can ATTACK... atm he just stands there like a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] doll....

Just my two cents worth... but hey two cents is betta then a fist full of nuthin...

prisoner · 05-01-2005, 11:19 AM

I think heals are pretty well balanced at the moment. One heal fixes several mitigated hits while one ward blocks one/most of one, and both are roughly the same power usage. I don't mind heals being a little power heavy cause they are actually useful, and we are not a priest after all. I know this isn't eqlive, but I remember that high level paladins had some great spot heals but they were mana heavy. I wouldn't mind if things went in the direction later on down the line SMILEY

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Oakbr · 05-01-2005, 11:19 AM

Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1.

/AGREE

We aren't broke. Please don't "fix" us. Farghus is only level 36, but he can do everything I like to do, and he does it well. I don't even bother with my wards...for the same amount of power, I can heal more than the ward would aborb. The only time I ever have difficulty with aggro is in a multi-mob encounter, with an overzealous DPS type...and even then, I can usually switch targets and pull aggro back where it belongs. For that matter, I rarely run low on power in Tank mode. Procs on my BP, Legs, and Weapon seem to help with aggro. Given that SOE seem to have the "fecal touch" (everything they touch turns to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]), I really, reallly, don;t want them to start messing around with pallys. Liable to have us all wearing dresses and singing "Kum Ba Yah" instead of Tanking.

uzhiel feathered serpe · 05-01-2005, 04:41 PM

Thx for the replies!

Ill turn my energies to arguing your points. It seems the majority of the posters want our DPS to stay the same, and just want slight improvements to our aggro. :smileyvery-happy:

I know that Moorgard stated that we're being adjusted down to Guards, but I think most of are concerned that they will break the class by doing so. Compared to other classes, Palys are pretty well balanced. Lets keep it that way

Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.

eyes007 · 05-02-2005, 01:35 AM

Don't you think the classes are starting to get out of control in terms of "balance". I mean Guardians should never have been given dual wield (and please don't look at this Sony nerfers, I don't begrudge them or want it taken off them). Hmmmm...To some the argument might be different but for me our only problem was taunts and we are meant to be the middle of the road between Guardians and Berserkers. Now I know Zerkers have better damage and probably pull more agro but Guardians shouldn't have similar if not better DPS NOW than rather after the nerf. Using my two hand Fulginate Imbued when my Guardian friend uses his PGT and something else, if we both fought with the same type of mob side by side, the DPS is wayyyyyy too balanced, especially when the Guardian kills faster while my mobs HP goes down in chunks due to the Oath Strike line (or it's equivalents) and etc. Giving us more mitigation or hitpoints or whatever (even taunts) doesn't make us that much better in a group, it just means we are secondary in choosing of tanks to Guardians. Sigh...if any Guardians read this I have the utmost respect for your class, I just really hate being relegated to second place without a choice.

Message Edited by eyes007 on 05-02-2005 10:37 AM

Chyld · 05-02-2005, 05:10 AM

hm.. people seem to be commenting on our aggro management, and our power consumption.. but really.. aren't those points rather connected? we use our heals and buffs to hold aggro, and to allow ourselves to tank.. the way the system is set up now, guards are better at taking damage with passive buffs, we take a more active approach and use heals to make up for the increased damage we take.. (and also to generate more hate) if the power cost on our abilities were adjusted slightly, to take this into account, and to make up for the fact that we're using these spells to make up for something that a guardian just innately does, without spending in combat power, (for the most part), i think our hate management would be much improved. (not that i think it's -all that bad- now, but i do agree that we do have issues with power consumption) as far as the rest of our arts/dps.. i don't think our actual dps is really all that high.. more that we have several abilities that deal decent damage, on long refresh timers.. which gives us good burst dps, and if the fights over in that time.. wow, we look good for the parsers.. but if the fight lasts awhile, all of a sudden, you realize, we really don't have much dps, it just appears that way for quick kills.. if they want to lower our damage arts slightly, but reduce the power cost and refresh times, i don't really see a problem with that.. it would hurt us slightly in high dps groups (ie, when the mobs are going down quick) but, for sustained damage, and for solo stuff, you wouldn't see a difference.. as for all the arguing over who should tank better.. really, with the archetype system, all fighter types should be able to tank.. i think it's ok to see variations against different types of mobs, or different types of healers.. but really.. if you picked a fighter, you should be able to tank, the means to that end should just be different, and i'd assume most people that started a pally expected to be able to tank, but realized they would have to be a bit more active in thier approach.. which is fine, but when being active drains you dry halfway through a fight, while someone else can just stand there and taunt every now and then, still tank the mob and end the fight with most of thier power.. that doesn't seem very balanced.. I don't want to be a guardian, i enjoy playing an active tank role, i can even accept that i migh not be an ideal choice for raid encounters, but in group situations, i expect to be every bit as viable as any other tank.. just as i'd expect the same from any other fighter type

Quai Chan Ka · 05-02-2005, 08:14 AM

Im play a templar as a main and most of the tanks in my guild are pallys and in all honesty i dont want u guys to change, i like pallys just the way they are :smileyhappy:

Troodon · 05-02-2005, 03:01 PM

The problem is that change is comming Quai, whether its wanted or not. We can either sit silent and let the opinion of others shape our future with half informed off the cuff remarks or try to form a concensus on what issues we have and how we would like to develop.

Danz · 05-02-2005, 03:50 PM

Please, PLEASE, just leaves the pallys alone, I just recently rerolled from my guardian because i hated it, dont drag me back down to that level again, i dont want to be a freakin guardian with a horse and some wards, tell SOE to keep it the same, and if we want to hold aggro better, give our spells the same effect of hate that generates from healers spells:smileytongue:

~just leave us as we are SOE, thats all im askin

~32 Guardian

~27 Paladin

~27 Fury

04-30-2005, 01:05 PM	#7
prisoner General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Awlis wrote: Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1. I would be very upset if they moved us to be inline with guardians, if I had wanted to be top tank I would have played a guardian, I dont and I didnt so please dont change my class that radically when many of us are 40 and beyond. Personally I dont think there is anything that needs doing, you may think taunt is broke, however you arent designed to tank as well or taunt as well, cos we have heals dps and a squire! We cant expect as a community to have dps and heals and then ask for defense and taunt to be inline with a guard, that is real cake and eat it grass is greener stuff. All classes are to be 'balanced' this means we do one thing better and other things worse, I love where the paladin is, please please leave, if you want to tank like a guard then go make a guard, if you wanna tank like a guard dps like a pally and heal like a cleric then you are just asking way too much. The highlighted line stuck out alot for me, and I have to disagree. Currently no, we are not designed to tank or taunt as well, but we should be. It doesn't necessarly have to be done via armor mitigation or even defense buffs, but we should all tank well and taunt well, all tanks of all flavors. So far we are in a pretty decent position, I wont argue that, but there is definate room for improvent for all tanks. We don't want to tank "like a guard," we want to be as effective as one. 17

04-30-2005, 02:35 PM	#8
Azakiel Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 21	What prisoner 17 said Yes our taunts are not as effective and yes our buffs and wards use up a lot of power. I find that simply altering my playing style slightly (buff and taunt and maybe some dps) while being the main tank keeps aggro just fine, so upgrading or making the taunts more effective will save us some power and will then move us closer to being a guard........should we give the guards some heals and wards? I like my class exactly as it is. Just hit 40 and still learning new tricks on how to get round the power issues and aggro management every day. I find it terribly boring standing at the front without even having to put some thought into keeping the aggro, conserving power and doing half decent dps at the same time - it's more fun if it's more challenging. Please fix all the problems with our existing combat arts and spells (and there is one almighty list of them) before even thinking of making game changing class changes! Whack Anything 40 Pally Neriak

04-30-2005, 04:51 PM	#11
prisoner General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	Awlis wrote: I have to disagree prisoner, if we get to tank as well as guards then they should get to heal as well as us, you gain in one area to lose in another, you must see it can't be balanced or fair if we get to do as well as what is meant to be the top tank in tanking as well as being able to heal and do good dps. If we do it as well you have to ask the question... why be a guardian, when you can be a paladin tank as well and heal?? Similarily we cant complain about our dps and want equalling out with warlocks and assasins. I feel the paladin is a well balanced class, please leave it alone. Lastly re taunts, its my opinion that often it poor play by other people in the party that cause taunt issues. I recently had a wiz that kept on getting aggro.. why? she was aoe the group as I pulled it in, solution told her to back off on nukes till I had good aggro, gave me 15 secs when I reached fight spot to get aggro then let off, healing aggro can similarly be reduced by self healing in the middle or at the end of taunts, I have little problems with aggro once I let the overnuker die a couple and then politelty point out the aggro issue is theirs and not mine!! I find it disturbing that you continue to believe that we shouldn't be able to tank as well. ALL should be able to tank well, just in different manners. A guardians superb defensive buffs and skills allow him to finish a fight alive. A paladins heals and wards allow him to finish a fight alive. It doesn't matter if we take the bus or a plane, as long as we reach the same destination. There shouldn't ever be a question as to choose one tank over another. It shouldn't be "oh crap no guards around, we can't raid/group" , it should be "Oh cool (tank class inserted here) just logged in, lets go raid!" No paladin's here are wanting to compare to warlocks or scouts. Thats rediculous. I agree that our dps is fine the way it is, but fighters as a whole are going to take a drop in their dps, its inevitable. Scouts have been complaining much too long that fighters are out-damaging them, and they have a right to be upset. We shouldn't be gimped, but we probably shouldn't be where we are at either. Finding the right balance for both is the challenge. Finally, there IS an issue with aggro and its buggy. Its not always someone being incompitent. I have tested it myself, as have many others throughout these boards. Its not just paladins, its all tanks. Fixing that will help out alot. Sometimes people in your party will get aggro for no apparent reason and its nigh impossible to get it back until the mob is dead. If you have an idiot wizard nuking before you are ready for them to, thats a whole other issue. I think that we should indeed have to work and be vigilant in keeping aggro, but we shouldn't have to power dump in order to get aggro once lost, and sometimes we lose it all to easily. My main point is this: Different but equal, and thats what we should strive for. 17

04-30-2005, 05:31 PM	#13
Seomon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 362	uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads. So you're like the monk troll, Gage? But seriously, personally I'd rather be close to where we are now. We aren't Guardians, because they have more +Defense than we can get, meaning they take less damage. We take more damage, but that's why we get our heals. I have 2 issues (right now) since we're basically going to be comparing ourselves to Guardians now: Aggro Management and Power We cannot hold aggro like a Guardian can without spending vast amounts of power, and even then we're not as good at holding aggro. I am constantly taunting (all 2 of them), buffing (generally just use 2), warding (+hate plus the ward aggro), shield bashing (+hate and a whole 20 damage), and healing (rarely use heals for +hate unless I'm raiding). Everything except for the taunts take up a ton of mana, and that's just not right. Our heals should probably be toned down some (except for the insta-heal line, it needs a huge bump), and cost a lot less mana, and our buffs and wards should definitely cost less mana. I could really care less if our DPS dropped if I see power costs reduced so we can actually last a whole fight without going oop without ever using a combat art. In a raid situation as the MT, I never use combat arts anyways, and our solo would basically stay the same if our heals cost less power. __________________

05-01-2005, 12:40 AM	#17
Boli32 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,425	I have read through most of the proposed changes / rants and discussions and really in the end it boils down to 3 things: 1 - Wards to be actually useful in absorbing damage.As it stands they are really good for regaining agro - but that's about it... a high power taunt that doesn't do enough to warrant its power cost. 2 - A re-evaluation of agro and how it worksIf we are going to loose some DPS - fine but I don't want to have to spam taunt (with our two taunts) and have agro snatched away from us every time the mages fire a nuke off. Some way of "taunting buff" which continues for a few seconds after each taunt where our damage counts for DOUBLE the hate would be ideal 3 - The ability to use our spells in a MT role as well as in an off-tank role.If we loose the ability to cast spells (this includes heals) whilst Main tanking because of continual interrupts would basically be the worst thing that could be done for the class… I was outraged when the philosophy “get hit more for less damage” came out and wearing heavy armour would hinder our ability to avoid interrupts. Thankfully Kite shields have made us more effective at avoiding blows – although rightly I am keeping a VERY close eye on the test server. And my ranting discussions have dwindled since this news came out. Frankly I don't care if we lost half of our DPS... as long as this did not cause even MORE agro problems than we already face (#2) as long as I can perform #3 in combat do whatever you want to our mitigation / avoidance scores. #1 would be pretty useful but we have lived without wards since we hit 25 and we can live without them for a bit longer. In truth I believe Paladin's will see little of the combat changes we were never really "the best" in anything - our power heavy abilities are a nice way to keep that in check - we have to choose every spell wisely and in truth that is the best thing I like about the Paladin. If #3 is possible after the re-balance and we can still hold agro... pffft then we are O.K. Message Edited by boli on 04-30-2005 09:49 PM

04-30-2005, 05:23 AM	#1
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	OK, guys..as some of you know, I'm one of the most vocal champions for Paladins. I continually, in all forums, have taken the Paladin cause in order to upgrade out tanking, spells, etc...but now we come to a crossroads. The devs propose making us HEAVY tanks, along with Guardians. This means not only do we get our DPS nerfed, but also our Agility. In return, they will adjust us to be more inline with Gaurdians, which means better taunts, more mitigation, more hitpoints, etc. Now, I need help. I do not wish to continue arguing our cause, unless this is truly what the Paladin community wants. I personally like Paladins the way they are, with some minor changes to our def buffs and our aggro skills. How does the rest of the community feel? Some Paladins have contacted me who are worried about the loss of DPS, because if were not the MT, then what is our role? to Rez? to DPS? Some Paladins have contacted me and stated that they would rather give up the DPS and agi, so we can tank as well as Guards. What is your opinion? My posting has gotten the attention of some of the Devs. Lets capitalize on that. The only way we can change our class is to do it together, guys. Strength in numbers!! please post your opinions! it takes 1 or 2 minutes, because these changes will affect us for a long time. Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark. Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on 04-29-2005 06:28 PM

04-30-2005, 06:45 AM	#2
AzraelAzgard Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 511	Im fine the way we are but also wouldnt mind being upgraded a little to be more in-line with Guardians, so far Paladins can tank any encounter as well as a Guardian if they know what they are doing and everyone with you is also capable. But there are problems, especially with our taunts, they seem too weak from mid 20's onwards, there are many times where you just cant put aggro back, use every taunt every ability on mob, heal person being attacked, rescue on mob, nothing happens Not sure if this is a bug but I know Guardians have been able to hold aggro far better on groups of mobs. Issue that usually happens with me is I hold aggro fine till end and the last mob of a group always seems to go aggro a caster even with me chaining the group taunts throughout and using HOs constantly, not sure if this is a bug but its very annoying especially when that last mob of a group is a named. I wouldnt mind being a heavier tank and losing a bit of avoidance to go more down the road of Mitigation atm we seem to have been mitigation nerfed, Iw as 56% mitigation before LU7 now 46% with same gear and stats. So Id like to go somewhere inbetween, not all the way to practically a Guardian but our Taunts need to be addressed, our dps isnt mega but lets not make it tiny like poor Templars, we often arent the main choice for raids, you wont be able to make a completly fair system where everyone can tank unless you only have the 4 baseic archtypes So we need to keep some dps as its often our role as a support class being able to do lots of things. One main thing to really help us perform and bring more balance in would be to allow a Range slot item for Knights. All Scouts can have a Range item, Fighters can except for Knights, why cant we? I dont see why not, the imbalance with stats here is very annoying and being able to have a bow would be great, for different styles of pulling, opening up a lot more worthwhile quests, and most of all to address the stats imbalance. Also think Mages and Priests should be allowed a symbol type range slot item but thats an issue for another thread So my vote would be to stick us somewhere inbetween going all the way with this closer to Guardian proposal, and staying pretty much as we are

04-30-2005, 10:10 AM	#3
TheSarge Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	for the love of god... dont' take away my DPS!!! Don't Nerf the paladin!

04-30-2005, 11:00 AM	#4
Managal Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	I'm a new pally, so I don't know what the end game is like. But, I read the forums, and from what I understand, we can compensate for just about everything (with the right gear/team) except taunting. If we could hold agro on major encounters, it would be better than less avoidance and more mitigation.

04-30-2005, 12:11 PM	#5
prisoner General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	I think the best things that can happen to the paladin class are two things. First, fix aggro in general. It often seems buggy at best, especially in situations where a tank unloads their taunts and still can't get aggro (common to all tank classes, many discussions on other areas of this board). Second, from many threads here, its apparent that paladins can tank fine in groups except for the situations named above, and can tank raid mobs well, but its said that we run out of power pretty fast and then we are sitting ducks. I think we need some power efficient taunts. Since we have to use buffs for half of our taunts and those buffs take a good chunk of power, we burn through it fast. Perhaps they can tone down the aggro on buffs themselves but increase the effectiveness of our pure taunts since they are the most efficient in terms of power usage. I am a paladin and I wear heavy armor yes, but I do not want to be a guardian, else I would have created one. -Increase taunt efficiency and effectiveness -Wards could use some looking into. They are definate power hogs and as such should be much more useful than they currently are. I have a feeling however that wards will be getting some love when they start to release the priest balancing, since shamans are in dire need of ward love as well. -I am happy with our current dps but if its going to be nerfed (which seems the likely case) maybe we can compramise and get a boost when using a 2h instead when an offtank. I don't mind being low dps with a 1h and shield if they do some work on taunts as stated above. 17

04-30-2005, 12:21 PM	#6
Awlis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 77	Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1. I would be very upset if they moved us to be inline with guardians, if I had wanted to be top tank I would have played a guardian, I dont and I didnt so please dont change my class that radically when many of us are 40 and beyond. Personally I dont think there is anything that needs doing, you may think taunt is broke, however you arent designed to tank as well or taunt as well, cos we have heals dps and a squire! We cant expect as a community to have dps and heals and then ask for defense and taunt to be inline with a guard, that is real cake and eat it grass is greener stuff. All classes are to be 'balanced' this means we do one thing better and other things worse, I love where the paladin is, please please leave, if you want to tank like a guard then go make a guard, if you wanna tank like a guard dps like a pally and heal like a cleric then you are just asking way too much.

04-30-2005, 02:54 PM	#9
Awlis Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 77	I have to disagree prisoner, if we get to tank as well as guards then they should get to heal as well as us, you gain in one area to lose in another, you must see it can't be balanced or fair if we get to do as well as what is meant to be the top tank in tanking as well as being able to heal and do good dps. If we do it as well you have to ask the question... why be a guardian, when you can be a paladin tank as well and heal?? Similarily we cant complain about our dps and want equalling out with warlocks and assasins. I feel the paladin is a well balanced class, please leave it alone. Lastly re taunts, its my opinion that often it poor play by other people in the party that cause taunt issues. I recently had a wiz that kept on getting aggro.. why? she was aoe the group as I pulled it in, solution told her to back off on nukes till I had good aggro, gave me 15 secs when I reached fight spot to get aggro then let off, healing aggro can similarly be reduced by self healing in the middle or at the end of taunts, I have little problems with aggro once I let the overnuker die a couple and then politelty point out the aggro issue is theirs and not mine!!

04-30-2005, 03:48 PM	#10
Troodon Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 201	I can apprecaite where you're comming from Awlis, for short fights we are fairly well rounded though not without problems, but its when you begin to start fighting protracted combats be it on raids or against particular mobs which take time to bring down that the flaw in our design become apparent: we have a restricted number of taunts and have rely upon buffs/heals/wards for their hate generation effect. Everyone uses such, but at least in my experience Crusaders have to rely upon such much more significantly. The problem with routinely relying upon buffs etc for hate management is that its a hardly power efficient strategy, hence the truism that Paladin's are sprinters, that we burn through power. If Paladins were simply Guardians-lite with heals, then it would be a problem if we were boosted in such aspects to the level of the Guardian. However, even beyond the difference that we cant dual wield etc etc. they dont have gaping holes where we get abilities, they have slows, power drains, groupwide buffs and significantly more taunts. The problem with such discussions is that we players are party to so little information about what the devs intend, so arguing based on the current status quo is awkward, we can only state our case, try to highlight our problems and hope that when the dust settles that everything is ok. For some reason Paladin's dont seem to be very vocal on the forums and thus Im very grateful to Uzhiel for taking a stand. Often we're dismissed as the noob-class with vague handwaving about being holy warriors. There seem to be many misconceptions about what we can and cant do, about the effectiveness of our abilities even amoung the self touted spokesmen for the other classes. This is a problem because when it comes to ballancing such half informed off the cuff remarks are taken into account if they're not rebutted. But anyway, personally on the whole I would agree that we're well rounded, however our fundemental flaw is our hate management.

04-30-2005, 05:09 PM	#12
steventhearmy70 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 32	My opinion is that I think its wrong to take away from a class. You have been paying money to play as that character and putting in alot of time and then to have him all of a sudden not do what he has been doing is wrong. I think they should make it as even as possible, but make only by adding to the classes, not taking away. This maybe dumb, but i think of it as buying a car, you love your car, driving it, and then all of sudden, the dealership takes the car back and takes away horsepower. Then gives it back to you, dont think you'd be a happy camper. I love being a Pally, lvl 41 here, just dont like the fact every week it seems, that we get weaker and weaker. Just my 2 cents.

04-30-2005, 10:30 PM	#14
Belgor Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 180	Yes, I want us to be a preffered tank as guardiansare now, but not neccessarily against the same encounters. Could be us being preffered to single targets and them to multiple targets or whatever. I chose the fighter archtype to tank, not to do dps. And I cant believe anyone choosing a paladin if they wanted dps.

04-30-2005, 11:48 PM	#15
Karlen Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,513	I think Paladins are well balanced now. It is true that our taunts are a bit weak but we have lots of other advantages and weak taunts generally don't prove to be an insurmountable problem. On the other hand, changes are coming: DPS "adjusting/balancing", possible changes to wards, possible changes to mitigation. If changes in some abilities require changes in the others, I don't have an issue with that. It is impossible to say whether the changes are good until we have seen them and can compare them to changes in other classes. Paladins are not guardians. But I would hope in the end that we could tank pretty much anything that they can, and vice-versa. Also, balancing could mean increasing or decreasing. The nominal or absolute level of power/ability doesn't matter -- only the overall level of power as compared with other classes/sub-classes and npcs.

05-01-2005, 12:12 AM	#16
trout Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	In short, I prefer to be left as is. I may be in the minority but I like playing the role of off tank. I enjoy the versitliy of our skills and being able to contribute dps in a meaningfull way. I like the way my character solos. I rarley have argo managment issues but admittadly, I'm only lvl 30 now and therefor no expirence in endgame content. At this point in my game I have yet to see a gaurdian signifigantly out perform me as a MT. However as I said before, given the choice I will OT for a gaurd of equal lvl, gear, knowledge. It just seems to me that as an OT the gaurd brings very little to the table in comparison to a pally.

05-01-2005, 04:39 AM	#18
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Seomon wrote: So you're like the monk troll, Gage? OMG I'm famous!! __________________

05-01-2005, 05:28 AM	#19
Nathayle Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2	I really hope they dont make drastic changes to our class. I realize that it can be a problem holding aggro in many cases, but that can be fixed by adjusting our taunts. Somone had a great idea when they said that if they had to adjust our dps, at least give us a bonus when using 2 handed weapons. I have always thought that carrying a shield should give a better raise to deffense anyway. I believe that if surveyed most paladins would say that they are happy overall with the class as it is, aside from the hate problem and the power draining wards and such. I know that this is probably not an issue to most of you, but I'm wondering how any changes will effect our chances in arena combat/pvp? I know that we don't know that it will happen, what with the vague referances to indirect pvp and such, but im curious.

05-01-2005, 06:50 AM	#20
AlleySpa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 52	I believe it's as simple as: A). Fix our taunts. It's infuriating that a guard 6+ levels below me can pull aggro with one taunt and I spam but can't get it, this hurts us as off-tanks/secondary tanks. Most mobs in the game are generally evil you are telling me that the paladin a true symbol of a holy warrior can't annoy these evil based mobs, instead he's totally ignored. B). Our power costs are ridiculous as many have stated before, our wards/heals are suppose to make up for our short comings in avoidance and mitigation yet using these will drain us before the mob is even half dead. (at least most lvl.50 mobs) Other than these two things i'm very happy with my pallie, however these things hurt us the most, as is we currently take more damage than warriors as well as use more power that's a huge imbalance.

05-01-2005, 07:46 AM	#21
AzraelAzgard Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 511	Better taunts More Power Efficent spells atm some are very in-efficent, I dont cast lots of mine because they are so poor in mana:dmg ratio. Let us use bows, missing the range slot hurts

05-01-2005, 08:45 AM	#22
HellRaisinWench Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 2	I've spent alot of time gettin my pally up to 46... along the way i've found thati'm a betta bakup tank, then i am a main... Don't get me wrong, when the time comes, i can tank most things...but we aren't main tanks,we are there to help the party with our buffs, add sum healin in, whilst doin a bit of damage... When i grp, its normally with a lvl 50 zerker as MT, i've had times,by not doin anything getting aggro (if sum1 can explain this be welcome)... As a class atm we are preety good, yeah boost taunts, change sum lvls of power consumption, or give us more power... I remember when i was in my teens and mid 20'smost grps, wanted a pally... but at higher lvls most grp don't want us because we have no set area(ie. dps, healing etc...) If u wanna do sumthin for us leave us as is with slight changes to taunts...or aleast make the squire useful, ie. so he can ATTACK... atm he just stands there like a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] doll.... Just my two cents worth... but hey two cents is betta then a fist full of nuthin...

05-01-2005, 11:19 AM	#23
prisoner General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 213	I think heals are pretty well balanced at the moment. One heal fixes several mitigated hits while one ward blocks one/most of one, and both are roughly the same power usage. I don't mind heals being a little power heavy cause they are actually useful, and we are not a priest after all. I know this isn't eqlive, but I remember that high level paladins had some great spot heals but they were mana heavy. I wouldn't mind if things went in the direction later on down the line 17

05-01-2005, 11:19 AM	#24
Oakbr Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 250	Personally I would say a big resounding leave us well alone please.. for the first time in 5 years of eq I am playing a char that I feel is balanced..having played pally in eq1. /AGREE We aren't broke. Please don't "fix" us. Farghus is only level 36, but he can do everything I like to do, and he does it well. I don't even bother with my wards...for the same amount of power, I can heal more than the ward would aborb. The only time I ever have difficulty with aggro is in a multi-mob encounter, with an overzealous DPS type...and even then, I can usually switch targets and pull aggro back where it belongs. For that matter, I rarely run low on power in Tank mode. Procs on my BP, Legs, and Weapon seem to help with aggro. Given that SOE seem to have the "fecal touch" (everything they touch turns to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]), I really, reallly, don;t want them to start messing around with pallys. Liable to have us all wearing dresses and singing "Kum Ba Yah" instead of Tanking. __________________ Farghus--Level 57 Trollie Palladun. (Mees am NOT ebul!) Kahbueme--Level 57 Warlock (sounds like Kaboom as pronounced by a waiter in a snooty French restaurant) Najena Server

05-01-2005, 04:41 PM	#25
uzhiel feathered serpe Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 461	Thx for the replies! Ill turn my energies to arguing your points. It seems the majority of the posters want our DPS to stay the same, and just want slight improvements to our aggro. :smileyvery-happy: I know that Moorgard stated that we're being adjusted down to Guards, but I think most of are concerned that they will break the class by doing so. Compared to other classes, Palys are pretty well balanced. Lets keep it that way Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.

05-02-2005, 01:35 AM	#26
eyes007 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 242	Don't you think the classes are starting to get out of control in terms of "balance". I mean Guardians should never have been given dual wield (and please don't look at this Sony nerfers, I don't begrudge them or want it taken off them). Hmmmm...To some the argument might be different but for me our only problem was taunts and we are meant to be the middle of the road between Guardians and Berserkers. Now I know Zerkers have better damage and probably pull more agro but Guardians shouldn't have similar if not better DPS NOW than rather after the nerf. Using my two hand Fulginate Imbued when my Guardian friend uses his PGT and something else, if we both fought with the same type of mob side by side, the DPS is wayyyyyy too balanced, especially when the Guardian kills faster while my mobs HP goes down in chunks due to the Oath Strike line (or it's equivalents) and etc. Giving us more mitigation or hitpoints or whatever (even taunts) doesn't make us that much better in a group, it just means we are secondary in choosing of tanks to Guardians. Sigh...if any Guardians read this I have the utmost respect for your class, I just really hate being relegated to second place without a choice. Message Edited by eyes007 on 05-02-2005 10:37 AM __________________

05-02-2005, 05:10 AM	#27
Chyld Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	hm.. people seem to be commenting on our aggro management, and our power consumption.. but really.. aren't those points rather connected? we use our heals and buffs to hold aggro, and to allow ourselves to tank.. the way the system is set up now, guards are better at taking damage with passive buffs, we take a more active approach and use heals to make up for the increased damage we take.. (and also to generate more hate) if the power cost on our abilities were adjusted slightly, to take this into account, and to make up for the fact that we're using these spells to make up for something that a guardian just innately does, without spending in combat power, (for the most part), i think our hate management would be much improved. (not that i think it's -all that bad- now, but i do agree that we do have issues with power consumption) as far as the rest of our arts/dps.. i don't think our actual dps is really all that high.. more that we have several abilities that deal decent damage, on long refresh timers.. which gives us good burst dps, and if the fights over in that time.. wow, we look good for the parsers.. but if the fight lasts awhile, all of a sudden, you realize, we really don't have much dps, it just appears that way for quick kills.. if they want to lower our damage arts slightly, but reduce the power cost and refresh times, i don't really see a problem with that.. it would hurt us slightly in high dps groups (ie, when the mobs are going down quick) but, for sustained damage, and for solo stuff, you wouldn't see a difference.. as for all the arguing over who should tank better.. really, with the archetype system, all fighter types should be able to tank.. i think it's ok to see variations against different types of mobs, or different types of healers.. but really.. if you picked a fighter, you should be able to tank, the means to that end should just be different, and i'd assume most people that started a pally expected to be able to tank, but realized they would have to be a bit more active in thier approach.. which is fine, but when being active drains you dry halfway through a fight, while someone else can just stand there and taunt every now and then, still tank the mob and end the fight with most of thier power.. that doesn't seem very balanced.. I don't want to be a guardian, i enjoy playing an active tank role, i can even accept that i migh not be an ideal choice for raid encounters, but in group situations, i expect to be every bit as viable as any other tank.. just as i'd expect the same from any other fighter type

05-02-2005, 08:14 AM	#28
Quai Chan Ka Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 32	Im play a templar as a main and most of the tanks in my guild are pallys and in all honesty i dont want u guys to change, i like pallys just the way they are :smileyhappy:

05-02-2005, 03:01 PM	#29
Troodon Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 201	The problem is that change is comming Quai, whether its wanted or not. We can either sit silent and let the opinion of others shape our future with half informed off the cuff remarks or try to form a concensus on what issues we have and how we would like to develop.

05-02-2005, 03:50 PM	#30
Danz Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1	Please, PLEASE, just leaves the pallys alone, I just recently rerolled from my guardian because i hated it, dont drag me back down to that level again, i dont want to be a freakin guardian with a horse and some wards, tell SOE to keep it the same, and if we want to hold aggro better, give our spells the same effect of hate that generates from healers spells:smileytongue: ~just leave us as we are SOE, thats all im askin ~32 Guardian ~27 Paladin ~27 Fury