sk dps poor ?

[d3caffed]

Am i the only one that thinks sk's dps is really poor ?i did a test the other day with my friend who is a bruiser.At the time we tested i was lvl 48 sk and he was lvl 50 bruiser.Ok he was 2 levels above me, but the difference was stunning.We quit gruping with eachother and we attacked 2 exact mobs (lvl 46^) at the exact time, by the time he had killed his, mine was at about 60% life left.We tried again and this time, he only used auto attack. And he was still quicker than me, my mob had like 20% life left when his went down. Some more facts about this.I have decent gear on my sk, mastercraft 42 or similar on most gear, all spells and buffs are mixed metween AD1 and Master2. all important spells are AD3 or better.The bruiser has similar gear.

[Norrsken]

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d3caffed wrote:Am i the only one that thinks sk's dps is really poor ?i did a test the other day with my friend who is a bruiser.At the time we tested i was lvl 48 sk and he was lvl 50 bruiser.Ok he was 2 levels above me, but the difference was stunning.We quit gruping with eachother and we attacked 2 exact mobs (lvl 46^) at the exact time, by the time he had killed his, mine was at about 60% life left.We tried again and this time, he only used auto attack. And he was still quicker than me, my mob had like 20% life left when his went down. Some more facts about this.I have decent gear on my sk, mastercraft 42 or similar on most gear, all spells and buffs are mixed metween AD1 and Master2. all important spells are AD3 or better.The bruiser has similar gear.

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Yes, the bruiser outdpses you on solo target mobs. your forte is with 8 mobs at the same time. And your AAs make a huge difference. when you get those spell crits maxed, you'll notice quite some difference.And, how high is your int?

[JoarAddam]

lol, labs raid i was on last night, swash posting the parses, ooh there's my name, third on the list

third

third

fifth

third

sixth

first (12792 pestilent touch)

third

fourth

third

third

after that I quit writing...  no, there's no problem with our DPS

[d3caffed]

br>

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Yes, the bruiser outdpses you on solo target mobs. your forte is with 8 mobs at the same time. And your AAs make a huge difference. when you get those spell crits maxed, you'll notice quite some difference.And, how high is your int?

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i have put6 points to the extra crit line, so i have like 50ish % chance for crit. My Int isnt maxxed out to the cap but not very far from it. Think i have about 300 Int when at offencive stance.One thing that i have been thinking about is the fact that we have quite many melee procs from buffs. And we have so many small damage spells. Makes me sometimes skip most of my spells and only use 3-4 or them so i wont interrupt too many autoswings. (atleast when using 2h weapon). Gonna try to get a slower 2 hander, so its easier to time spells between autoswings. Right now i use Thyrs 2 hand sword from Solseks eye named, which has 2.5 sec timer.

Message Edited by d3caffed on 10-20-2006 04:47 PM

[Jaggid]

This is a curiosity question.If you have a sword your happy with, why would you get a slower one, when you can elminate some of your haste, that just seems easier and cheaper to me.

[Nicholai24]

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sk dps poor ?

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No.

[JoarAddam]

Your spell and combat art damage far out damage your autoattack.  Don't depend on autoattack, or slow your casting and combat arts just to allow for autoattack, that's just unwise.  Do it for power problems, yes, but Your autoattack delay is a delay from the last swing, not the last combat art, so if the timing is there, you'll hit with it just as soon as you stop queueing abilities.  Damge rating and procs are what you're looking for...  weapons with high min/max, and the closer the min/max ratio, the better.  For weapon processes, damage damage.  I have weapons with strength buff procs, and casting timer reduction procs, but damage is where our talent lies, and where the best benefit comes.  If you're going to solo alot, damage and lifetaps are key.  when you get tap veins, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.  Having 5 encounters on you and watching your life jump from 10% to 98% is fun as heck.

[Zanix]

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JoarAddam wrote:
Your spell and combat art damage far out damage your autoattack.  Don't depend on autoattack, or slow your casting and combat arts just to allow for autoattack, that's just unwise.  Do it for power problems, yes, but Your autoattack delay is a delay from the last swing, not the last combat art, so if the timing is there, you'll hit with it just as soon as you stop queueing abilities.  Damge rating and procs are what you're looking for...  weapons with high min/max, and the closer the min/max ratio, the better.  For weapon processes, damage damage.  I have weapons with strength buff procs, and casting timer reduction procs, but damage is where our talent lies, and where the best benefit comes.  If you're going to solo alot, damage and lifetaps are key.  when you get tap veins, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.  Having 5 encounters on you and watching your life jump from 10% to 98% is fun as heck.

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Hells yes. It's fun to scare the crap out of your group when they think the healers OOP or not able to get a heal on your 10% health bar, and you Tap Veins and it's auto refil.

As far as DPS goes, yep, the more mobs, the better your overall DPS will look. Also, swap up  your AAs and cast as much as you can...dots are critical...laying 2-3 on several mobs 2 times in the fight's duration = 1000s of dmg points.

[d3caffed]

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JoarAddam wrote:
Your spell and combat art damage far out damage your autoattack.  Don't depend on autoattack, or slow your casting and combat arts just to allow for autoattack, that's just unwise.  Do it for power problems, yes, but Your autoattack delay is a delay from the last swing, not the last combat art, so if the timing is there, you'll hit with it just as soon as you stop queueing abilities.  Damge rating and procs are what you're looking for...  weapons with high min/max, and the closer the min/max ratio, the better.  For weapon processes, damage damage.  I have weapons with strength buff procs, and casting timer reduction procs, but damage is where our talent lies, and where the best benefit comes.  If you're going to solo alot, damage and lifetaps are key.  when you get tap veins, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.  Having 5 encounters on you and watching your life jump from 10% to 98% is fun as heck.

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a question regarding autoattack.

Lets say you just did an auto attack, your weapon has a 2 sec delay, and you start casting a spell which takes 2.5 sec casting time. Have you lost that next auto swing, or will it auto swing just after the spell has been cast ? or is it 2,4,6,8 etc no matter, and if you time it badly you could end up with no auto swings at all ? (not having queued up your spells) 

[Zanix]

CAs and spells put the swing that was due on hold, the swing then happens immediately after the spell or CA is finished.

[Xanoth]

auto attack is cued and will triger when you finish casting

[Mistmoore-Milaga]

Our damage is not poor. Think of it like a 10 slice pizza.Four slices represent your spell damage, Two slices represent your combat art damage, Two slices for your auto-attacks, One slice for your pet, andOne slice for all those procs you get and hopefully have on your weaponsSo you'll need to push buttons You cannot compare DPS from two different levels. If the mob is blue to a bruiser and yellow to you, the bruiser is going to hit it a lot more.

[Kryptonix]

When choosing what gear you should get, try finding gear that procs off of hostile spells. A lot of your damage is spells. Your AE spells can also proc hostile spell procs even your non damage hostile spells proc the item, ie. Mana Sieve. Helps out on DPS, more than you think.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

My personal dammage is relatively poor, but I see tons of SKs really dishing it out, on the other hand my SK takes a serious beating and keeps on trucking. It's just the way I geared and spec'd him. I like him that way a lot.

Message Edited by CHIMPNOODLE. on 10-20-2006 11:54 AM

[Igu]

I have a 51 SK and a 65 Monk (does less damage than a Bruiser).

Monk can open up a can of whoopass, Sk does very respectable damage.

Monk takes hits like he is wearing leather...like he is. SK takes hits like he is wearing plate..Nuff said.

Monk has best feign death in the game. SK has a crappy FD, has a group escape port and a 'simon says die' button for most mobs (Harm touch line).

 

SK in Off stance with Master 1s (I have mostly M1s) can do really good damage and life taps are nice.

The Violet flame on your hand is uber too. :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by Igu on 10-20-2006 12:14 PM

[Lamprey_02]

I would suggest you re-run the test with mobs relative to your respective levels. In other words, you fight a lvl 46 and him fight a lvl 48 mob. Chances are he'll still kill faster, which is expected, but I'll bet the difference won't be nearly as much.

 

Why? Hitting a mob 4 levels below you is much easier than hitting a mob 2 levels below you.

[Pentarum]

Sk's dps doesnt really start to shine till closer to 70. With the right gear, AA's, figuring out good spell casting orders and timing when to cast you can easily push out 1k-1500 dps even on single mobs without HT. I'am almost always in the top 1-3 on our raids. Trading #1 with a conj, assassin, ranger and wizard. I usually average about 1100 dps but If I dont watch it I die quite often. DM is a no no on raids though unless im tanking =( Our 2 monk/bruisers almost always parse lower than me. The only time they beat me is when I go afk for a drink

Message Edited by Pentarum on 10-20-2006 01:01 PM

[Ceruline]

One of my favorite bits of gameplay is when I can get someone to yell for evac when I'm just about to pop Tap Veins

[Jodah]

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Igu wrote:

I have a 51 SK and a 65 Monk (does less damage than a Bruiser).

Monk can open up a can of whoopass, Sk does very respectable damage.

Monk takes hits like he is wearing leather...like he is. SK takes hits like he is wearing plate..Nuff said.

Monk has best feign death in the game. SK has a crappy FD, has a group escape port and a 'simon says die' button for most mobs (Harm touch line).

 

SK in Off stance with Master 1s (I have mostly M1s) can do really good damage and life taps are nice.

The Violet flame on your hand is uber too. :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by Igu on 10-20-2006 12:14 PM

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HAHAHA simon says die button roflmao

[Beldin_]

I allways just look on zonewide parses, and there at the end in group instances i allways do more dps then our bruiser or monk, ok i have a lot more masters, but normally it looks lile me 650 dps .. bruiser/monks 450 dps .. so if they have mostly masters they maybe will be even. And if i look on just single fights .. in Nek Castle Retribution on the end encounter i even outdamaged our fully mastered swashie

[Wendingo]

Still working up my SK so I will not say too much (I tried to deny who I really was inside for a long time and not be an SK, then went to WoW, then came back and listened to my soul and wadda ya know, I'm finally having fun in a MMORPG again).   I did notice a couple of things that I think apply generally in EQ2 though.  First, I think the key observation for you particular fight above is the level difference which is mentioned above, but I think it bears highlighting.  Tactics might or might not be good, but that just is not a fair test.  If you were fighting the same level mob, as someone else noted, its no surprise you did not do as well and that is less a function of your damage that it was of how hard the mob was for the two of you, relatively speaking. 

Second I see a fair number of posts about trying not to "miss" autoattacks.  Do not worry about that worry about casting.  Manage your power and your autoattacks tend to themselves.  You might miss a few, but you are losing a lot more DPS trying to time your casting. 

Also, max out those dots.  They may not look like much per tick, but when you are solo they are definitely a difference maker.  Anything that stands up for more than 30 seconds should get DoT's, DoT's, and more DoT's.  It sounds from your description like you were relying on the "nuke" type spells more.  You are an anti-paladin.  Suck their life from them.  Savor it.  Smashing it with a big rock is for the bruisers. :smileyvery-happy:

 

 

[Rylight]

man I did the blades instance quest (the last quest for the vangaurd of the blades title instance) today, where the mobs come at you on a timed account instead of spawned, and I totally out did our 59 brigand (61 sk) and he was so [Removed for Content], my tap viens plus my aoe dots totally out did the brigand and the wizard over time. so in the long run I was number 1 on the dps parser, it was so sweet. so overall sk's can dps just fine if given the time to shine.

[Pentarum]

Wendingo I have a coment about what you said....Timing does matter on auto attack. Spaming your spells will not get you higher dps. It will get you out of mana and bottom of the dps list or dead from over agro. You see this more and more once you've maxed your spells and gear and reached end game content. Yeah I can cast a 2-3kk nuke... or I could use those 3 seconds to cast a fast spell and hit with auto attack for 2k each hit 2-3 times maximizing my dps more. If you want to be a really good dps sk you have to learn when to cast and not to cast. Spells alone just wont keep up with the auto attacks.. Yeah a 400 a tick dot every 6 sec is nice but I can do more damage with auto attack in the time it took me to cast the spell in the first place. So you balance them out and time them doubling the dps.Why do 1k with a spell when you can do 5k with both timed right?  Swing/Spell/Swing/Spell.... If your lazy then blow off a few spells then sit back and auto attack while they reset. You will still do more dps than just hitting every spell you own. BUT.....You want to do 1k-2k dps then learn to time stuff. You want to prove that sk's are not as [Removed for Content] as some believe then time it. My guild knows what a sk can do dps wise now. You can be pretty close to a warlock in plate with a big fracking sword if you know what your doing. If your happy with 400-700dps then by all means spam your spells. I'll be the one at the top of the parse chart at the end of the raid making you wonder what your doing wrong (on single target mobs especially). Sk's are not all about button mashing and anyone that I group with or raid with knows exactly what im talking about when the parse comes up and the "T1" dps classes just got owned by a SK.

Message Edited by Pentarum on 10-21-2006 04:59 AM

Message Edited by Pentarum on 10-21-2006 05:18 AM

[Toastic]

If you're on the bottom of the DPS list how the heck would you over agro??

I know you don't mean at the same time but stealing agro from another tank would seem to imply high DPS, not low.

Message Edited by Toasticle on 10-21-2006 06:32 AM

[Wendingo]

Thanks for the feedback Pentarum.  I certainly want to be the best I can be.  However, you will note that I did not advocate just mashing buttons or constantly queing up attacks.  What I said was to worry about power management and let the autoattack take care of itself.  If you do that you will not be chain-casting (at least I will not, someone with better gear might be able to.  :smileyvery-happy.  I fully confess that I do not have the spare time/small motor coordination to learn to be that good and I found from experience and parsing when I tried that I was hurting myself trying to time things.  So, I went back to worrying about the power bar and it all works well for me.  I have fun, I do good DPS, and my groups seem happy with me.

I should add though that I was thinking specifically about the original poster's test scenario.  If you are in a raid DoT's are pretty useless most of the time because nothing is up that long.  You also need to be level of spell conscious and, as you say, focus on total damage output.  My point on the DoT's was perhaps not stated clearly.  It is all about total damage.  My point was if the mob is going to be up for 30 second to 1 minute look at the total damage output of your DoT's as opposed to multiple casts of your nukes.  Obviously, you want to max the damage.  You also need to take power usage into consideration as DoT's tend to be more efficient.  I think too many people who whine about SK DPS just ignore the DoT's and what they can do.  That is all I was saying. 

Message Edited by Wendingo on 10-21-2006 04:19 PM

[Nicholai24]

Our DoTs are one of the biggest things to consider in terms of maintained DPS. Things are up for plenty of time on a raid to land DoTs.Misery + Brand + Coil + Promise + Pestilence. The only one I'd ignore is Death Circle.Timing spells between swings of a slow 2-hander will boost your DPS greatly, as will proper critical AAs and group set-up.

[Wendingo]

Just curious since a lot of really good folks seem to be following this thread, what do you think of the sacrament line in groups.  Its a long cast time, but it seems to be really mana efficient DPS.  I noted that the last poster does not seem to cast it on raids.  Is it a good use of power in a group setting and is the answer the same all the way to level 70?

[Pentarum]

Toasticle... If your dead from spamming your spells and yanking agro then your not dpsing anymore are you.. Thus being at the bottom of the parse or at least alot lower once your rez'd and back in a fight.

[Pentarum]

Honestly I rarely use it anymore unless im helping someone mentored for added damage. Duo or Group I sometimes cast it if im not body pulling mobs. (On pull before it gets to me I'll do Abom, Pet, Debuf str, Despoil, HO)  Then Agony, taunt, kick, lay on a few dots, hit aa haste and watch the mobs hp melt. In general the pet takes too long to cast for the amount of damage you could be doing with other fast cast spells/ca's. yes its the best mana/damage dot we have but with so many mobs doing aoe's later on the pet is lucky if it gets 2 hits off. Pet is really nice though soloing or casting it anytime after you've used DM Will wait to see what our aa's in EoF do for the pet if anything at all.

[JoarAddam]

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Pentarum wrote:

Wendingo I have a coment about what you said....Timing does matter on auto attack. Spaming your spells will not get you higher dps. It will get you out of mana and bottom of the dps list or dead from over agro. You see this more and more once you've maxed your spells and gear and reached end game content. Yeah I can cast a 2-3kk nuke... or I could use those 3 seconds to cast a fast spell and hit with auto attack for 2k each hit 2-3 times maximizing my dps more. If you want to be a really good dps sk you have to learn when to cast and not to cast. Spells alone just wont keep up with the auto attacks.. Yeah a 400 a tick dot every 6 sec is nice but I can do more damage with auto attack in the time it took me to cast the spell in the first place. So you balance them out and time them doubling the dps.Why do 1k with a spell when you can do 5k with both timed right?  Swing/Spell/Swing/Spell.... If your lazy then blow off a few spells then sit back and auto attack while they reset. You will still do more dps than just hitting every spell you own. BUT.....You want to do 1k-2k dps then learn to time stuff. You want to prove that sk's are not as [Removed for Content] as some believe then time it. My guild knows what a sk can do dps wise now. You can be pretty close to a warlock in plate with a big fracking sword if you know what your doing. If your happy with 400-700dps then by all means spam your spells. I'll be the one at the top of the parse chart at the end of the raid making you wonder what your doing wrong (on single target mobs especially). Sk's are not all about button mashing and anyone that I group with or raid with knows exactly what im talking about when the parse comes up and the "T1" dps classes just got owned by a SK.

Message Edited by Pentarum on 10-21-2006 04:59 AM

Message Edited by Pentarum on 10-21-2006 05:18 AM

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You realize that there's a refresh between every ability that allows your autoattack fire at least once to hit whether you have an ability queued or not?  You're suggesting I wait to use my combat arts and spells, or reduce the list of combat arts or spells that I use...  suggesting that I don't use something that's guaranteed to hit for an autoattack that may get completely mitigated or avoided...I tried your way tonight...  For the first half hour of the raid i tried it...  and then I went beack to my way, shortest casts first and often with item switching with all of my achievement lines so that i used lego's smite, swiftaxe, tossed in a venemous slam, and was still using a 2handed sword (Guadralek) 90% of the time...I'll stick with my way.