Raid Force Make-up

Mermut · 11-07-2018, 04:40 AM

If it is intended (ie required by certain fights) that raids have a particular number of scouts/mages/tanks/healers it would be a good idea for that information to be available when the expac releases so raid forces don't progress through the expac and then find that they are locked from progressing further because the have too many or too few of particular archtypes.

11-07-2018, 10:25 AM

2 heals per group, a chanter per group and a bard per group
maybe 4 fighters for synergy

so 4 dps in total ? 2 mages and 2 scouts ? should be fine

Mermut · 11-07-2018, 10:36 AM

Some fights require the number of mages/scouts not to be in excess of number of healers
Also, I have seen zero need for 4 tanks..
But, whatever the 'mix' that is enforced by some raid mobs, it shouldn't be something forces discover part way through progression..

Gninja · 11-07-2018, 07:37 PM

We do not intend to give away exact raid make up needs for every fight in expansion. Having said that there are certain situations which you should expect not to happen. You should not ever need more than 3 tanks and even then 3 tanks are not needed in most cases. In terms of balancing number of classes versus healers that will not be going away. If you front load your raid with dps(caster/melee) you should expect to not be able to overcome certain defensive fights.

Mermut · 11-07-2018, 08:15 PM

The problem is that it isn't just healers vs dps.. it's casters vs melee as well. A scout or mage heavy force will be stymied even if the force carries extra healers

11-07-2018, 08:25 PM

We just had to leave some mages dead before pull when we did those names in pop, even with having ppl on healer alts cause we're mage heavy. Not ideal, but it's about the only option unless you force ppl to main change when they don't want to.

Gninja · 11-07-2018, 09:22 PM

Going forward if you leave players dead in situations like that there may be added consequences. Leaving players dead to get past a mechanic can be considered an exploit if killing the create grants some sort of award through achievement or access flag etc. If you are mage heavy I would recommend attempting the encounter shorthanded instead of leaving players dead.

Holyduke · 11-07-2018, 11:38 PM

So as a raid leader I have 24 people wanting to play. But I will need to say "sorry Mage X, Y and Z you cannot come along on this fight because of this script says so". While I understand having some balance is needed, tanks, healers, DPS, power regen, etc. This choice just does not seem fun at all and those without a balance raid force will now be even shorter? Is this really a good play? What if we are short healers one day? Because of that, kick more DPS out of your raid so they cannot play? It's easy to say "Just leave your Mage's out of the raid". "Just leave the Scouts out of the raid". The point of raiding is being together, not dropping people because of reasons like this.

Now I have to pick who sits out? Then after the pull get them back in, arrange groups again, etc. If you are forcing us to lose members because of a script like this do not punish the raid force by having them stay down(dead) for the fight just to make us waste time getting the back in. We are not exploiting the fight, we are just trying to make the raid move along. Dead or out of group/raid is the same thing. One of them will save us time "managing" a raid. To me the other one is just silly and a waste of time.

11-07-2018, 11:50 PM

From the required heroic running to get gear, the heal situation, and some tanking problems now adding specific group requirements it seems as if they are really trying to force casual raiding out of the game. I know for us the expac isn't even out yet and we already have people saying they simply don't have time. I understand catering to elite raid forces but there really should be room for everyone.

Gninja · 11-08-2018, 12:26 AM

Its one encounter... and its part of the script. It makes sense as part of the script and was tested yesterday. The folks testing it did NOT have a balanced raid so they got the failure condition being talked about here and were still able to complete the fight with little problem (after a few bugs were fixed) Lets not get all worked up over something you haven't seen in action yet please.

Gninja · 11-08-2018, 12:27 AM

My point was that leaving players dead should not be considered "Allowed" as its bypassing script elements and still getting a reward for it without a penalty.

Naneel · 11-08-2018, 12:32 AM

Casual raid guilds have had something similar for years to address this. A handful of reliable attendees who have the time keep a small stable of raid-ready characters (a particular healer, chanter, bard and/or tank) because you never know who will show up on any given night. It likely slows raid progression but, let's face it, you're not competing for world or server firsts anyway. In my experience in many casual/semi-casual raid guilds, this was always an option but I can see where the serious raid forces would not want to deal with that. It's a necessity for casual raid guilds though.

Thand · 11-08-2018, 03:52 AM

A typical Optimal balanced raid force currently would have
Tank group Tank. healer healer Dirge Enchanter +1dps
Mage group healer Troub enchanter 3 mage dps
Scout group Healer Dirge chanter 3 scout dps
Off tank group Tank. healer Dirge Enchanter Dps Dps
So total
2 tanks
5 healers
7 +1-2 Scouts (Though most raids woudl not be able to get than many Dirges etc)
7 +1-2 Mages
Remember Enchanter count as Mages
and Dirges and Troubs Scout.
IF you can not have more mages and Dps than healer thi means
So you need Mana regen. Opps a extra Dps a have to sit out
Need a Dirge /Troub? Sorry more dps sit out
That or Force all Dps to roll healers alts instead?
The down side of this which might be intended is Making raids have to kill a Boss Multiple times Shorthanded to get everyone flagged.

Daalilama · 11-08-2018, 05:25 AM

Not to sound a tad bit miffed at the headache your about to unload on raid leaders but with all due respect is the dev staff under the impression that every raid force runs a cookie cutter raid wherein every class is duplicated by every other raid force with the same numbers of mages, healers, tanks and scouts...every raid night of course? So you have just stated if my raid attempts a fight with too many mages for those 'defensive' scripts(I tend to have a mage heavy force) we will wipe akin to not enough raiders being unlocked for that tier name or just that the fight will be impossible...this is an important distinction. Second and just as important on those certain scripts that require less finger wigglers/scouts are raids now being told their raiders now need to gear up a decently kitted alt (non-dps class for this example)? Why am I seeing a picture of Godzilla facepalm in my mind at this moment.

11-08-2018, 06:03 PM

When I see a statement like this, I have to question what we're trying to accomplish with a "script" and threats of consequences if not done a certain way. Step back for a second and really read what was posted here for accuracy and consistency. I'm not mad or attempting in any way to be belligerent, insulting or whatever. I tend to be precise in my language. Here's the bottom line: what's the difference between leaving mages dead or going through the raid encounter "short-handed?" Dead mages are not available; mages not in the raid are not available either, so either situation should be doable or conversely, create a "fail mode." In my opinion, and mine alone, scripting appears to be the altar at which we are praying, rather than using a commonsense approach to raid encounters. If I read the conversation correctly, why is this single encounter so class/number dependent when all the others don't use it. Raiding is getting difficult enough these days without artificially creating roadblocks for people just out to have some fun. And now, we're forcing raids to decide who can play and who can't? And we have to run the same encounter multiple times just because the right numbers aren't available when we do raids?
Maybe a suggested alternative might be to let human beings just be the creative individuals we are and if we have 24 slots available, let us sort out what it's going to take to win and have some fun. There should be multiple ways for raid groups to "win" a raid encounter. If they can do it with no tanks, or fewer healers, etc., how is that hurting the game? Having artificial limiters like only certain types/numbers of classes in a raid doesn't accomplish that in my book. That said--if that's the future of where raids are heading, then I do agree that stating what classes/numbers of those classes by encounter needs to be posted so people aren't wasting time trying to figure out what's going on.
Again, take this as the suggestion it is. I don't know about everyone else, but I log in to have fun and see what I can do and hopefully employ some creativity while I'm at it. If I wanted pure lockstep, leave my brains at the door, I'd be working at some car plant on an assembly line. And Gninja, I realize having a more options to win a raid encounter may be problematic in designing and coding, so if that's a problem, so be it. We're in this boat together, so let's see if we can't do something that would be a "win-win" for all parties. Thanks for "listening."

Gninja · 11-08-2018, 06:38 PM

The main difference is that leaving players dead allows them to get flagged as having completed the encounter when they in all actuality did nothing to warrant getting whatever unlock/reward is given for defeating the encounter. I don't mean loot because obviously players can come in after the fact and get loot regardless of what they did in the fight. I am referring more to achievements and/or unlocks that come from achievements.

In regards to why this encounter is different; its a giant basilisk that feeds on corpses. It makes sense if players are left dead for him to continue to eat corpses to gain power. You still get credit for completing the fight even though you probably shouldn't based on my comments above, however you will have the boss gain in strength from the corpses being left around.

As a side note @Bhayar, While it was a wall of text it was well worded and constructive. Thank you for that.

Gninja · 11-08-2018, 07:46 PM

Let's see how it shakes out once you guys can get in and attempt the fight. If its that big of an issue we can cross that bridge at that time. But please, give it a try first.

I am willing to have a conversation about it.

11-08-2018, 11:14 PM

Gninja said: ↑

“The main difference is that leaving players dead allows them to get flagged as having completed the encounter when they in all actuality did nothing to warrant getting whatever unlock/reward is given for defeating the encounter. I don't mean loot because obviously players can come in after the fact and get loot regardless of what they did in the fight. I am referring more to achievements and/or unlocks that come from achievements.

In regards to why this encounter is different; its a giant basilisk that feeds on corpses. It makes sense if players are left dead for him to continue to eat corpses to gain power. You still get credit for completing the fight even though you probably shouldn't based on my comments above, however you will have the boss gain in strength from the corpses being left around.

As a side note @Bhayar, While it was a wall of text it was well worded and constructive. Thank you for that.”

LOL...thanks for the comment, Gninja. There's always a fine line between being too terse or being verbose. Makes sense to let the scenario play out and I'll be curious to see it. At the moment, I'm not clear on why leaving corpses lay contributes anything other than helping the boss vs. going in shorthanded. Clearly, we'll have to experience first hand. Appreciate your willingness to look at it.

11-09-2018, 02:35 AM

One thing I find interesting is the rewards you are talking about Gninja actually require shorthanded flags anyway to be able to get them. So really the only piece in question is flawless and leaving a few people dead to be able to do the script vs having them sit out makes 0 positive difference to the raid. you could argue that it makes it so we would have to kill the mobs a 2nd time with the people that where forced to sit. but we will already have to do each encounter multiple times just as shorthanded... Additionally, if leaving people dead increases the difficulty of the mob in question its more of an exploit to have them leave raid than it is to keep them dead since flawless would be easier in that scenario.

Gninja · 11-09-2018, 05:16 AM

They were incorrectly hooked up to shorthanded/perfection achievements. The high fervor rune actually comes from the normal kill all tier 1 bosses achievement. Sorry about that confusion but those should have been corrected in this morning's update on beta.

11-10-2018, 08:50 AM

competitive raid progress flushed down the toilet

11-07-2018, 10:36 AM	#3
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Earar said: ↑ “2 heals per group, a chanter per group and a bard per group maybe 4 fighters for synergy so 4 dps in total ? 2 mages and 2 scouts ? should be fine” Some fights require the number of mages/scouts not to be in excess of number of healers Also, I have seen zero need for 4 tanks.. But, whatever the 'mix' that is enforced by some raid mobs, it shouldn't be something forces discover part way through progression..

11-07-2018, 08:15 PM	#5
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Gninja said: ↑ “We do not intend to give away exact raid make up needs for every fight in expansion. Having said that there are certain situations which you should expect not to happen. You should not ever need more than 3 tanks and even then 3 tanks are not needed in most cases. In terms of balancing number of classes versus healers that will not be going away. If you front load your raid with dps(caster/melee) you should expect to not be able to overcome certain defensive fights.” The problem is that it isn't just healers vs dps.. it's casters vs melee as well. A scout or mage heavy force will be stymied even if the force carries extra healers

11-08-2018, 05:25 AM	#14
Daalilama Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Gninja said: ↑ “We do not intend to give away exact raid make up needs for every fight in expansion. Having said that there are certain situations which you should expect not to happen. You should not ever need more than 3 tanks and even then 3 tanks are not needed in most cases. In terms of balancing number of classes versus healers that will not be going away. If you front load your raid with dps(caster/melee) you should expect to not be able to overcome certain defensive fights.” Not to sound a tad bit miffed at the headache your about to unload on raid leaders but with all due respect is the dev staff under the impression that every raid force runs a cookie cutter raid wherein every class is duplicated by every other raid force with the same numbers of mages, healers, tanks and scouts...every raid night of course? So you have just stated if my raid attempts a fight with too many mages for those 'defensive' scripts(I tend to have a mage heavy force) we will wipe akin to not enough raiders being unlocked for that tier name or just that the fight will be impossible...this is an important distinction. Second and just as important on those certain scripts that require less finger wigglers/scouts are raids now being told their raiders now need to gear up a decently kitted alt (non-dps class for this example)? Why am I seeing a picture of Godzilla facepalm in my mind at this moment.

11-08-2018, 06:03 PM	#15
Bhayar Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Gninja said: ↑ “Going forward if you leave players dead in situations like that there may be added consequences. Leaving players dead to get past a mechanic can be considered an exploit if killing the create grants some sort of award through achievement or access flag etc. If you are mage heavy I would recommend attempting the encounter shorthanded instead of leaving players dead.” When I see a statement like this, I have to question what we're trying to accomplish with a "script" and threats of consequences if not done a certain way. Step back for a second and really read what was posted here for accuracy and consistency. I'm not mad or attempting in any way to be belligerent, insulting or whatever. I tend to be precise in my language. Here's the bottom line: what's the difference between leaving mages dead or going through the raid encounter "short-handed?" Dead mages are not available; mages not in the raid are not available either, so either situation should be doable or conversely, create a "fail mode." In my opinion, and mine alone, scripting appears to be the altar at which we are praying, rather than using a commonsense approach to raid encounters. If I read the conversation correctly, why is this single encounter so class/number dependent when all the others don't use it. Raiding is getting difficult enough these days without artificially creating roadblocks for people just out to have some fun. And now, we're forcing raids to decide who can play and who can't? And we have to run the same encounter multiple times just because the right numbers aren't available when we do raids? Maybe a suggested alternative might be to let human beings just be the creative individuals we are and if we have 24 slots available, let us sort out what it's going to take to win and have some fun. There should be multiple ways for raid groups to "win" a raid encounter. If they can do it with no tanks, or fewer healers, etc., how is that hurting the game? Having artificial limiters like only certain types/numbers of classes in a raid doesn't accomplish that in my book. That said--if that's the future of where raids are heading, then I do agree that stating what classes/numbers of those classes by encounter needs to be posted so people aren't wasting time trying to figure out what's going on. Again, take this as the suggestion it is. I don't know about everyone else, but I log in to have fun and see what I can do and hopefully employ some creativity while I'm at it. If I wanted pure lockstep, leave my brains at the door, I'd be working at some car plant on an assembly line. And Gninja, I realize having a more options to win a raid encounter may be problematic in designing and coding, so if that's a problem, so be it. We're in this boat together, so let's see if we can't do something that would be a "win-win" for all parties. Thanks for "listening."

11-08-2018, 06:38 PM	#16
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Bhayar said: ↑ “what's the difference between leaving mages dead or going through the raid encounter "short-handed?" Dead mages are not available; mages not in the raid are not available either, so either situation should be doable or conversely, create a "fail mode."” The main difference is that leaving players dead allows them to get flagged as having completed the encounter when they in all actuality did nothing to warrant getting whatever unlock/reward is given for defeating the encounter. I don't mean loot because obviously players can come in after the fact and get loot regardless of what they did in the fight. I am referring more to achievements and/or unlocks that come from achievements. In regards to why this encounter is different; its a giant basilisk that feeds on corpses. It makes sense if players are left dead for him to continue to eat corpses to gain power. You still get credit for completing the fight even though you probably shouldn't based on my comments above, however you will have the boss gain in strength from the corpses being left around. As a side note @Bhayar, While it was a wall of text it was well worded and constructive. Thank you for that.

11-07-2018, 04:40 AM	#1
Mermut Well-Known Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	If it is intended (ie required by certain fights) that raids have a particular number of scouts/mages/tanks/healers it would be a good idea for that information to be available when the expac releases so raid forces don't progress through the expac and then find that they are locked from progressing further because the have too many or too few of particular archtypes.

11-07-2018, 10:25 AM	#2
Earar Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	2 heals per group, a chanter per group and a bard per group maybe 4 fighters for synergy so 4 dps in total ? 2 mages and 2 scouts ? should be fine

11-07-2018, 07:37 PM	#4
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	We do not intend to give away exact raid make up needs for every fight in expansion. Having said that there are certain situations which you should expect not to happen. You should not ever need more than 3 tanks and even then 3 tanks are not needed in most cases. In terms of balancing number of classes versus healers that will not be going away. If you front load your raid with dps(caster/melee) you should expect to not be able to overcome certain defensive fights.

11-07-2018, 08:25 PM	#6
Bord New Member Posts: n/a	We just had to leave some mages dead before pull when we did those names in pop, even with having ppl on healer alts cause we're mage heavy. Not ideal, but it's about the only option unless you force ppl to main change when they don't want to.

11-07-2018, 09:22 PM	#7
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Going forward if you leave players dead in situations like that there may be added consequences. Leaving players dead to get past a mechanic can be considered an exploit if killing the create grants some sort of award through achievement or access flag etc. If you are mage heavy I would recommend attempting the encounter shorthanded instead of leaving players dead.

11-07-2018, 11:38 PM	#8
Holyduke New Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	So as a raid leader I have 24 people wanting to play. But I will need to say "sorry Mage X, Y and Z you cannot come along on this fight because of this script says so". While I understand having some balance is needed, tanks, healers, DPS, power regen, etc. This choice just does not seem fun at all and those without a balance raid force will now be even shorter? Is this really a good play? What if we are short healers one day? Because of that, kick more DPS out of your raid so they cannot play? It's easy to say "Just leave your Mage's out of the raid". "Just leave the Scouts out of the raid". The point of raiding is being together, not dropping people because of reasons like this. Now I have to pick who sits out? Then after the pull get them back in, arrange groups again, etc. If you are forcing us to lose members because of a script like this do not punish the raid force by having them stay down(dead) for the fight just to make us waste time getting the back in. We are not exploiting the fight, we are just trying to make the raid move along. Dead or out of group/raid is the same thing. One of them will save us time "managing" a raid. To me the other one is just silly and a waste of time.

11-07-2018, 11:50 PM	#9
Stibbie New Member Posts: n/a	From the required heroic running to get gear, the heal situation, and some tanking problems now adding specific group requirements it seems as if they are really trying to force casual raiding out of the game. I know for us the expac isn't even out yet and we already have people saying they simply don't have time. I understand catering to elite raid forces but there really should be room for everyone.

11-08-2018, 12:26 AM	#10
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Its one encounter... and its part of the script. It makes sense as part of the script and was tested yesterday. The folks testing it did NOT have a balanced raid so they got the failure condition being talked about here and were still able to complete the fight with little problem (after a few bugs were fixed) Lets not get all worked up over something you haven't seen in action yet please.

11-08-2018, 12:27 AM	#11
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	My point was that leaving players dead should not be considered "Allowed" as its bypassing script elements and still getting a reward for it without a penalty.

11-08-2018, 12:32 AM	#12
Naneel Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Casual raid guilds have had something similar for years to address this. A handful of reliable attendees who have the time keep a small stable of raid-ready characters (a particular healer, chanter, bard and/or tank) because you never know who will show up on any given night. It likely slows raid progression but, let's face it, you're not competing for world or server firsts anyway. In my experience in many casual/semi-casual raid guilds, this was always an option but I can see where the serious raid forces would not want to deal with that. It's a necessity for casual raid guilds though.

11-08-2018, 03:52 AM	#13
Thand Active Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	A typical Optimal balanced raid force currently would have Tank group Tank. healer healer Dirge Enchanter +1dps Mage group healer Troub enchanter 3 mage dps Scout group Healer Dirge chanter 3 scout dps Off tank group Tank. healer Dirge Enchanter Dps Dps So total 2 tanks 5 healers 7 +1-2 Scouts (Though most raids woudl not be able to get than many Dirges etc) 7 +1-2 Mages Remember Enchanter count as Mages and Dirges and Troubs Scout. IF you can not have more mages and Dps than healer thi means So you need Mana regen. Opps a extra Dps a have to sit out Need a Dirge /Troub? Sorry more dps sit out That or Force all Dps to roll healers alts instead? The down side of this which might be intended is Making raids have to kill a Boss Multiple times Shorthanded to get everyone flagged.

11-08-2018, 07:46 PM	#17
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Let's see how it shakes out once you guys can get in and attempt the fight. If its that big of an issue we can cross that bridge at that time. But please, give it a try first. I am willing to have a conversation about it.

11-08-2018, 11:14 PM	#18
Bhayar Well-Known Member Posts: n/a	Gninja said: ↑ “The main difference is that leaving players dead allows them to get flagged as having completed the encounter when they in all actuality did nothing to warrant getting whatever unlock/reward is given for defeating the encounter. I don't mean loot because obviously players can come in after the fact and get loot regardless of what they did in the fight. I am referring more to achievements and/or unlocks that come from achievements. In regards to why this encounter is different; its a giant basilisk that feeds on corpses. It makes sense if players are left dead for him to continue to eat corpses to gain power. You still get credit for completing the fight even though you probably shouldn't based on my comments above, however you will have the boss gain in strength from the corpses being left around. As a side note @Bhayar, While it was a wall of text it was well worded and constructive. Thank you for that.” LOL...thanks for the comment, Gninja. There's always a fine line between being too terse or being verbose. Makes sense to let the scenario play out and I'll be curious to see it. At the moment, I'm not clear on why leaving corpses lay contributes anything other than helping the boss vs. going in shorthanded. Clearly, we'll have to experience first hand. Appreciate your willingness to look at it.

11-09-2018, 02:35 AM	#19
Talduke Member Posts: n/a	One thing I find interesting is the rewards you are talking about Gninja actually require shorthanded flags anyway to be able to get them. So really the only piece in question is flawless and leaving a few people dead to be able to do the script vs having them sit out makes 0 positive difference to the raid. you could argue that it makes it so we would have to kill the mobs a 2nd time with the people that where forced to sit. but we will already have to do each encounter multiple times just as shorthanded... Additionally, if leaving people dead increases the difficulty of the mob in question its more of an exploit to have them leave raid than it is to keep them dead since flawless would be easier in that scenario.

11-09-2018, 05:16 AM	#20
Gninja Developer Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 0	Talduke said: ↑ “One thing I find interesting is the rewards you are talking about Gninja actually require shorthanded flags anyway to be able to get them. So really the only piece in question is flawless and leaving a few people dead to be able to do the script vs having them sit out makes 0 positive difference to the raid. you could argue that it makes it so we would have to kill the mobs a 2nd time with the people that where forced to sit. but we will already have to do each encounter multiple times just as shorthanded... Additionally, if leaving people dead increases the difficulty of the mob in question its more of an exploit to have them leave raid than it is to keep them dead since flawless would be easier in that scenario.” They were incorrectly hooked up to shorthanded/perfection achievements. The high fervor rune actually comes from the normal kill all tier 1 bosses achievement. Sorry about that confusion but those should have been corrected in this morning's update on beta.

11-10-2018, 08:50 AM	#21
Garry827 New Member Posts: n/a	competitive raid progress flushed down the toilet