"Looking for PLATE tank for Fallen Gate"

[Mentla]

Had this message spamming channels last night.  Tried to mount a defence, but quite frankly I was shot down.  "Why would we want a pyjama wearer when we can get a guardian?" and "Brawlers can't hold group agro!"  Didn't have chance to mount much of a defence I grant you as footy was about to start, but there were plenty of anti brawler comments and no one was pro-brawler. We got a problem?  Sure we solo just fine, but it seems the majority don't want us.

[Krokous]

maybe they are right... i lost my tanking since KoS came out. Until KoS i tanked almost everything :/

[KeandraD]

As long as everyone is following my rules, I tank group encounters just fine ie dont take your own mob People just think guardian "is the best"... imo, the person behind the toon is the good tank, not the class.

Message Edited by KeandraD on 06-21-2006 12:51 PM

[Maelwy]

it's a stigma that we face.  there are too many people with preconceived notions....

but there's not an instance i can't tank as well if not better than a plate tank, or a dungeon i cant crawl.  (well, except for stormhold, i never did like that place...)

we're NOT the best for raid tanking except for a few key fights.

 

the best suggestion i can make...make your own groups.  pick your favored classes to join you. you will come out looking good (if you know what you are doing, and are geared appropriately...)

and if you get a coupla people with preconceived notions in your group often enough, you might just change their minds....

 

[Mentla]

I have no problem grouping as I'm f***** awesome, but this seems to be the opinion of the majority.  I generally make groups if I feel like being sociable.  Will try leaving LFG up and see what happens.  Sounds like I wont get an inv.

[Owa]

Most of the people I come across seem perfectly aware that Bruisers can tank - but they also feel, justifiably in my opinion, that we are not the best choice for tough fights. (By 'tough fights' I mean epics, orange heroics etc etc. Not so say that Brawlers can't do this stuff - they can - but Guardians and Zerkers do it easier.)

If you want fast XP though - get a Bruiser tanking. I took a pick up group down to the bottom of Sanctum last night and we barely stopped to catch a breath. When I left, eveyone was very happy with the amount of XP they'd gained and the speed with which they gained it.

Anyway, as regards the OP's point, I can understand the frustration. No reason to take a plate tank to FG unless all the mobs con orange. Or unless you're a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].

[Wildfury77]

Other peoples ignorance......Bruisers make great melee tanks. For heavens sake a swashbuckler can tank in most group situations with the right AAs (AoE taunt,extra HP,mitigation) - anyoway you probably would have been killed grouped with the toon spamming that rubbish.

[Rastaah]

My daughter gets tells left and right to tank in FG on her Bruiser so not sure. Maybe your on a pve server though, pvp servers have a bit of a diff. mentality

[pkeaf]

Well,

Let me just make a different point.  My main is an Inquisitor and I group just about every night.  In my experience, my reactives work MUCH better with classes that have higher mitigations (as opposed to avoidance).  This is where preferences begin to come into play.  I do actively look for a plate tank over avoidance based tanks based on this.

Also IMO, no one can match the hate holding ability of a good guardian.  If I have a choice, the guardian would tank every time over a bruiser or monk.  That being said, if an avoidance tank knows what they are doing, they seem to have very few problems holding hate.

 

[Wildfury77]

Cracks me up......all classes can "hold hate"....eg. a warlock going nuts. LOLImagine a swashtank - stamina line with his AoE attacks, AoE taunt, hate reactive, hate blade attack, Direct taunt and high DPS.....he's going to hold agro as well as any tank, it just a shame about the low mitigation and instant death about to follow!!I don't buy the rubbish that guards have monopoly on agro holding, its rubbish. They may well be better tanks, but thats for other reasons.

[Rendoir]

They are just stoopid then ,-) Bruiser is the BEST tank for practically every heroic instance/dungeon crawl in my experience, having played one now to 70. Fast kills, FD runs to where you all need to be.. Stick a defiler in there, dirge/troub coercer for the hate, assassin for the same and one extra dps, or maybe a fury/warden and you have a truly beasting group. Bruiser has been the most fun class i have played in eq2 so far, people don't understand really, and sure, it is up to them to ask for plate - but much like in the real world, ungrounded prejudice sure means one misses out on a lot of cool things.

[ganjookie]

Hmm they must be noobs asking for soemthign like that.Why in hades would they wan ta guy that smells like an old can of Tuna when they could have a fresh and quick bruiser...classism at its worst.  Thats what this is

[J4k]

I personally think Bruisers take alot more work  to tank good especially when it comes to multiple mobs. We are capable of it but like i said it takes more work and for alot of bruisers im sure thats more work then they want to do. So basically a group gets a few bad bruisers and automatically label us  as a whole as sucky tanks. Thats how it is.

 

Sad part is this is about Fallen Gate. If your hunting in fallen gate you can have a freakin assassin tank for you. your so low level that if you got a group your gunna kill the stuff no matter whats tanking.

[Akamaru]

I've seen the same sort of messages on my server too (I play on Najena). I've also seen Brawler types saying that they can't type and want a plate tank for their EXP party. Seems a lot of Brawler types want to be a hybrid Tank/DPS role, and people are under the misguided impression that Paladins and Shadowknights are backup tanks only, so according to that logic there is only two tanks in the game, Guardians and Berserkers. Nonsense.I'm quite tempted to make a Bruiser (or a monk) just to prove all those people wrong.

[ganjookie]

You can try, but the people that don't know how to play thier class will just ruin it

[Colossaltitan]

Bruisers tank just fine, anyone who is spamming (esp for heroic content) for a "Plate Only Tank" is just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].

I personally would take a Brawler over a Plate tank any day-of-the-week for heroic content.

For raids, of course, Guardian, unless its a specific situation.


That person spamming most likely just had a bad experience, with a bad "Pajama wearer."

[digitalblasphemy]

It works both ways.  Try finding a group that's looking to fill the last dps spot as a Guardian.  I got so sick of it, I betrayed to a zerker.  Not so much that the dps is greater, but the stigma of "no dps" that was attached to the Guardian class was lifted.  It's like I'm free now and am not restricted.  Whereas before, I would simply not get invites unless people were desperate if they already had a tank (brawler, warrior, crusader) in their group.  It's certainly possible I ran into groups that were into the min/max thing.  But mostly it was the same bias you've experienced when being told you aren't at tank.

[Lyasa]

haha. swashy isn't the only scout that can tank in a pinch. as a 70 brig i've tanked quite a bit of PoA, including a good number of named.  usually am ~55/50 in defense. just less hp than your typical tank. think only person in guild that can keep agro off me reliably is guard or pally on singles. mainly cause of assuage or amends. and i've played both a zerker and bruiser on pvp both are good for tanking.

[Mentla]

Just for the record the Fallen Gate thing didn't effect me, I'm lvl 50 We were in PF last night.  Group make up had my dps buff, Inq's haste buff and we didn't have any casters, just me, monk and assassin on dps and a pally doing pretty good job of tanking.  My God we were shredding mobs!  Got about 30% in an hour I think, with 0% VIT.

[deadsidedemon]

I get a kick out of "looking for Plate Tank" requests.  I know people (esp healers) just want some sort of predictability and consistancy when playing.  There have been a lot times when I'll barely get hit at all for several fights in a row, so the healer's lay off a bit.  Then I get a couple hard hits on incoming and they're not ready for it and complain you're making their job harder :smileyvery-happy:

I guess some people pefer a monotonous grind session ... where's the thrill in that?

 

[Raidi Sovin'faile]

A Brawler that doesn't know what he's doing will have a hard time with multiple encounters. A Brawler that understands his group can keep aggro fine.

 

A "trick" with aoe heavy groups is to use your AoE's right off to catch aggro, then start switching mobs when they are just hitting orange. Don't kill off a mob, then move to the next... let the AE's finish it off, and move on to keep aggro on the others.

 

Once you've gotten used to the group, you'll know when to switch for max effectiveness.

 

 

The encounters Brawlers do best at, (and can actually hold aggro better) is anything even con or lower. If the Brawler was 20-24, he'd actually be a better choice for Fallen Gate than any Plate Tank.

 

Reason? Because we proc our extra hate on attack... the plate tanks proc when getting hit. Unless the guardian is really badly outfitted, he'll have at least decent avoidance (50%-ish). So while his aggro control goes DOWN while he gets higher level than the content, ours just goes UP.

 

This is the same reason we are good at fights of attrition... where you need to outlast power in absurdly long fights. Our proc lands when WE hit... so it's power free and gets boosted by haste. Guardians lose their aggro control the more we debuff the mob (with attack decrease or stuns, etc). Sure guardians have taunts... but when power loss is an issue for the tank, Brawlers go with the flow of "debuff mob, buff our tank".

 

 

At later levels, we get some very nice life saving abilities (boosts to mitigation, immunities to spells or attacks, depending on which brawler, etc)... which gives us some very good survivability too.

 

I've found I can tank any heroic encounter or instance as good as a guardian. The raids are tougher, but I'm not totally spec'd for defensive tanking in AA's, and I'm not decked out in the higher mitigation gear (need to finish the claymore line and get more relic or fabled).

[Jezekie]

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Mentla wrote:Had this message spamming channels last night.  Tried to mount a defence, but quite frankly I was shot down.  "Why would we want a pyjama wearer when we can get a guardian?" and "Brawlers can't hold group agro!"  Didn't have chance to mount much of a defence I grant you as footy was about to start, but there were plenty of anti brawler comments and no one was pro-brawler. We got a problem?  Sure we solo just fine, but it seems the majority don't want us.

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Welcome to the perception of 2004/2005, it remains to this day to a large extend.

[Darkdourden]

its stupid, im bruiser 70 and been tanking from the begin, and still tanking in Raids x4 much better that many of the plate tanks of my guild, and tanking in Nizara that is suposed harder then HoF so who says that a brawler cant tank as good as a plate one?

[R2Chie]

ive heard ppl i know say "looking for plate tank for hof" when that is far from what you actually want. I usually do hof on my alt wizzie and ill most of the time insist on a brawler tank because it makes the zone 10x easier (on the condition that its a brawler i know usually who wont lose agro every few seconds) bruisers on the whole are far better with holding group encounters than monks admittedly though from my experience. I still wouldnt step down to let you guys raid tank though sorry :p and although i wind up our bruiser in guild, do dish out ALOT of dps, he holds agro great with his aa line about hitting multiple targets or something, whatever it is he holds it very well. Ignore what some people think, brawler tank is great for alot of things, my only main problem is the group encounters at times where just seem to struggle very badly. now ill stop looking at a class forum i dont play

[Mentla]

With groups I've been opening up with AE taunt then hitting them with the AoE attack with the sparky hands thing up.  Not had any probs yet, but I pretty much soloed all the way to about 45 and don't think I've grouped with a warlock or conj yet.  Reckon this is the way to go?

[Owa]

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Mentla wrote:
With groups I've been opening up with AE taunt then hitting them with the AoE attack with the sparky hands thing up.  Not had any probs yet, but I pretty much soloed all the way to about 45 and don't think I've grouped with a warlock or conj yet.  Reckon this is the way to go?

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Yeah. I use AoE taunt, both AoE attacks and the WIS line AoE attack if i'm grouped with a Warlock or Zerker. Self-heal helps too.

Remember, it's always easier to get aggro from the start than to try to win it back. So go nuts at first and the encounter will be easier to control.

[Flor]

Thanks all, you have given me hope.  My hubby and I have duoed mostly to endgame with our swashie/fury combo.  We have been fairly unstoppable and I really, really liked our combo.  We are now rolling up a bruiser/defiler combo to do something a bit different.  My hubby likes meleeing and I like healing.  Defilers have always intrigued me and now I want to try one out.  This thread gives me hope that we can duo well together.

It's funny about perceptions.  I have found so many plate wearing tanks that couldn't hold agro if their life depended on it.  We have even had a times when my hubby (as a swashie) had to take over MT duties from the plate wearing character.  A good zerker/guardian who is a skilled player is unbeatable.  Just as a skilled bruiser would be unstoppable as well.  Thanks again.  Good discussion.

 

[Zooblamy]

I read thru this topic yesterday and thought to myself "I haven't seen this happen in a while." Well...

Last night, I was organizing a 2x raid on Rahotep to finish up the HQ.  I'm a lvl60 Bruiser.  The first non-guildie that joins was a 56 Guardian, and his first question is "we need to find a tank."  I reply with "I'll tank it" (having tanked it once before, at a lower level).  He gives me a "lol" and proceeds to tell me I'm DPS.  We leave it at that, and as I'm the raid leader, I don't worry about it.

Towards the end of collecting people, we pick up a lvl59 Guard.  I get a "Yeah! A tank!"  My guild laughs at me, knowing it toasts my buns.  Oh well, sure, Mr. plate tank, let's see how you do living AND keeping aggro.

Long story short, Mr. Plate tank was laying face down in the dirt, and I tanked Rahotep (again).  It was funny to see raid chat, as everyone figured they were gone for when the Guard went down: "Ok everyone, respawn at the docks and take the Twin Tears carpet.  Hopefully we can respawn him."

There is very little to break the monotany of the daily grind, but last night was classic, and I wanted to share this with the folks on this thread, heh.  Bruisers and Defilers FTW!

[DarkMirrax]

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Floria wrote:

Thanks all, you have given me hope.  My hubby and I have duoed mostly to endgame with our swashie/fury combo.  We have been fairly unstoppable and I really, really liked our combo.  We are now rolling up a bruiser/defiler combo to do something a bit different.  My hubby likes meleeing and I like healing.  Defilers have always intrigued me and now I want to try one out.  This thread gives me hope that we can duo well together.

It's funny about perceptions.  I have found so many plate wearing tanks that couldn't hold agro if their life depended on it.  We have even had a times when my hubby (as a swashie) had to take over MT duties from the plate wearing character.  A good zerker/guardian who is a skilled player is unbeatable.  Just as a skilled bruiser would be unstoppable as well.  Thanks again.  Good discussion.

/Plate tanks see themselves as uber aggro magnets and think they dont have work at aggro control , we dont slack we learn not to ..... funny enough i was healer (inq) in FG creating a group had a lvl 26 brusier and we were good to go .. ppl were like erm we need a tank lin ..my response was " [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] you on we got a bruiser , sit back and enjoy an easy ride" 2 lvls later woot a group and with an inq healing him

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[Schri]

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KeandraD wrote:
As long as everyone is following my rules, I tank group encounters just fine

ie dont take your own mob

People just think guardian "is the best"... imo, the person behind the toon is the good tank, not the class.

Message Edited by KeandraD on 06-21-200612:51 PM

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completely agreed,,, that goes with any toon.