Am I the only one who knows?

[kjam]

Am I the only one who knows that we are not TANKS! We are just a cool way of doing DPS My friend is a 50 guardian.. and he can tank me under the table! I can hold argo sure.. but why waste all that power healing my fragile butt

Message Edited by kjames on 03-02-2005 09:53 AM

[Icr]

The class can tank fine, I would look else where as to why u cant tank.

[Gronker]

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kjames wrote:

Am I the only one who knows that we are not TANKS!

---

Nope, but alot of us are trying to fix that mistaken perception.

[Stormewol]

That is not a knowledge, that is a misconception.

 

We have more DPS than the guardian class to make up for the fact we do not have the migation of the plate classes.  We are avoidance tanks.  Migation is just more predictable than deflection.

 

Bruisers are fighters and fighters are tanks.  Period.  If I wanted to be "cool DPS" and still swung a wepon, I would have stuck to playing my assassin.

[Opa]

I can't believe someone would waste their time to post this again.

 

Good luck in your crusade to convince a community of tanking bruisers that a tanking bruiser doesn't exist. You energies might be better spent in the Guardian forums, telling them just how uber they are. You'll probably get better reception there.

 

In the future, please be sure to title your thread something less misleading, so I know not to waste my time reading it.

 

Thanks.

[Thail]

AGGGG. You made me say it. You guys are great and I hope you will still help me out w/ info and such. But he is right. Guys, a 50 Guardian w/ decent gear WILL tank me under table. Hands down no questions asked. Can I tank yes. But not on raids. Please dont hate me.

[OgApostrap]

Problem with tanking on raids isn't the dmg taken.. its the hp.. :O.. Guardians basically have tot ank.. raid mobs can hit for a few thousand dmg in a few seconds cant they? Best hp on a monk/bruiser I ahve seen is like 5k... guards can get to like 10-11k cant they?

[Opa]

Thail, your point is one much subtler than the original poster. If people want to have discussions about the ideal raid tank, what kind of tanks are best in certain situations, etc, I'll all for it. I don't think there's a lot of people, even in this forum, who are going to make the argument that Bruisers are the perfect raid tank.

 

I would not even argue that we are the "best" tanks or even the "tankiest" tanks. We're not. We wear light armor. We all know this already, it's not a novel development.

 

But I've had my fill of people making arguments about what bruisers ARE--e.g., making claims like "We are not tanks. We are kung-fu DPS."

 

A) I tank every night. How am I not a tank?

 

B) Would I tank a raid? No.

 

These are two different discussions. The one Thail brought up is one worth having; the one the original poster did is not, in my opinion.

[Grift]

I've been tanking for 42 levels every night. My group has nothing but praise for a Bruisers tanking ability. If they get rid of our messy fear based group taunt we could become one of the best tanks in the game.*Edit* I was tanking level 49 mobs in CT with a group of six level 39 or lower level players (2 healers) and we didnt even have to use all our power. No other class can buff base skill levels as far as we can and for that we will always be needed on Raids.

Message Edited by Grifter on 03-02-2005 02:40 PM

[psubull]

I like how he calls 'aggro' 'argo.'

[Pt]

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kjames wrote:

Am I the only one who knows that we are not TANKS! We are just a cool way of doing DPS My friend is a 50 guardian.. and he can tank me under the table! I can hold argo sure.. but why waste all that power healing my fragile butt

Message Edited by kjames on 03-02-200509:53 AM

---

I dont think your even a bruiser. If so, what is your "level 50" bruisers name and what server? 31 bruiser here. I tank every night for every group. If there is a guardian in the group around my level 2-3 levels, I still out tank him. It is my firm belief that it is not the class that tanks better, but the players.

 

Krakken

31 Bruiser

Highkeep

[SageMarrow]

well yall gotta understand that yes the classes are still "broken" as my buddy would put it- i tank just as good if not better than all of my guardian friends at level 33.(not too mention all the others that have tanked up until lvl 47+) yes i know this for fact and wouldnt argue it with anyone. now the thing about that is that we are NOT going to keep the best dps as well as the ability to tank better 49 levels until end game raid lol. we cant - were not - and yet again we cant- if anything yes- guardians will be twinked - if they are supposed to be the great MT of norrath then they need some work -

 

i tank all the time and i have almost perfect gear for my level - i go 5/10 fights in a full grp buffed fighting yellow ^^'s w/o getting hit at all, and i mean AT ALL- FULL HP entire fight. where as the guardians take a somewhat constant stream of damage- on top of that i do ALOT of dps - if i pull aggro off MT - i take it better than he does- a spike comes in- get some use out of ignore pain or whatever- and right back to moving with the misses and blocks - which works very well

 

now the point im trying to make here is that no class has skills that just make or break them in tanking - i tank just as good as a shadow knight- paladin- beserker- guardian. and we are openly the most dps - and pretty much the best tanks IMO between skills and mend type spells, considering that 60% of mobs (estimate- i know how you people are about numbers) worth good exp to a grp are single pull ^^'s - yeah raids are cool- but who do you know that raids in that kind of frequency as to say thier percentage actually tips the scale a bit ( no one say anything about Ardent Legion- coolest batch of lunatics on the planet) =)

 

if they gave us even one good AE shout type spell mid-end game it wouldnt even be in question - but to counterbalance that for those of you who dont know- just use ur grp buff after you pull and that will stick aggro to you like flypaper to a squirrels behind. 

 

   

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-02-2005 09:13 PM

Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-02-2005 09:15 PM

[Gaige]

---

SageMarrow wrote:

well yall gotta understand that yes the classes are still "broken" as my buddy would put it- i tank just as good if not better than all of my guardian friends at level 33.(not too mention all the others that have tanked up until lvl 47+) yes i know this for fact and wouldnt argue it with anyone. now the thing about that is that we are NOT going to keep the best dps as well as the ability to tank better 49 levels until end game raid lol. we cant - were not - and yet again we cant- if anything yes- guardians will be twinked - if they are supposed to be the great MT of norrath then they need some work -

 

i tank all the time and i have almost perfect gear for my level - i go 5/10 fights in a full grp buffed fighting yellow ^^'s w/o getting hit at all, and i mean AT ALL- FULL HP entire fight. where as the guardians take a somewhat constant stream of damage- on top of that i do ALOT of dps - if i pull aggro off MT - i take it better than he does- a spike comes in- get some use out of ignore pain or whatever- and right back to moving with the misses and blocks - which works very well

 

now the point im trying to make here is that no class has skills that just make or break them in tanking - i tank just as good as a shadow knight- paladin- beserker- guardian. and we are openly the most dps - and pretty much the best tanks IMO between skills and mend type spells, considering that 60% of mobs (estimate- i know how you people are about numbers) worth good exp to a grp are single pull ^^'s - yeah raids are cool- but who do you know that raids in that kind of frequency as to say thier percentage actually tips the scale a bit ( no one say anything about Ardent Legion- coolest batch of lunatics on the planet) =)

 

if they gave us even one good AE shout type spell mid-end game it wouldnt even be in question - but to counterbalance that for those of you who dont know- just use ur grp buff after you pull and that will stick aggro to you like flypaper to a squirrels behind. 

---

The only people who believe that, are guardians.

BTW, you guys said it all for me.

Its nice to see the community in here come together, as tanks

[IkkyScar]

Personally, I love posts like this.  Let people keep thinking this so we don't get nerfed!:smileyvery-happy: 

 

Guber--50 Bruiser

Crushbone

[Moski]

double post sorry

Message Edited by Moskito on 03-03-2005 03:31 AM

[Moski]

I tank every day, too. But the OP is right with the statement that a 50 Guardian outtankes a 50 Bruiser. There is now way that we are equal.

 

Lets compare a lvl 50 Bruiser (me) and a lvl 50 Guardian (guildmate)

 

Guardian: http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=301954301

 

Health: 5.810

Power: 2.174

Defense: 8.664 AC

+ Higher Damage Mitigation

+ More Taunts

 

 

 

Bruiser:  http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=310732301

 

Health: 4.391

Power: 1.999

Defense: 7.373 AC

+ imho best MT buff Shrug Off

 

 

Dwohan (the Guardian) has a few better items becasue he is (and was) always the better MT for the guild. A Guardian has much more HP, better Aggro-Control because he has more Taunts. We Bruiser are tanking quite well in exp groups. Like i stated i do tank every day. but we need more power to keep aggro with damage skills becasue we only have one single taunt and one (fear-implemented) ae-taunt. I build my char for tanking. I am ogre and i took all +tanking traits/traditions like +5defense +sta +agi +maxHP.

 

But still - the guardian has

~ +1.500 HP

~ +1.300 AC

 

An in raid encounter this makes the difference.

 

 

 

 

[Andn]

i think a bruiser, buffed by another bruiser makes a fearsome tank...

 

like at mid-30s, overtaking blows ad1 adds +36% avoidance to target, along with 8(9) AGI.

staggering stance would grant 25% avoidance, though im quite sure that doesnt stack, and + 12 AGI to caster.

 

so 2 bruisers overtaking/stancing each other would gain +36% avoidance and +20(21) AGI, which is nothing to sneeze at.

 

and those are only the mid-30s skills on ad1 level!

 

 

bruisers can very well outtank a guardian on a single non-caster target, just because of their sick avoidance, block/parry/riposte skills, self-defense buffs, mob-debuffs and further enhancements like boxing stance or intimitating orders.

 

as soons as theres 3+ mobs however, we lack serious AE taunts.

or if theres casters present, which dont give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about our defense or avoidance..... :smileyvery-happy:

[Ghaleon]

I thought the first guy was joking at first haha

Message Edited by Ghaleon on 03-03-2005 08:42 AM

[kjam]

Untill this recent patch I was always number 1 in the DPS game. Woot combat stats Its hard to keep up with a 50 wizzy now.. and a 37 warlock (1500 nuke). But im alway right behind them! I [Removed for Content] off assassin's and necro's every dayse cause of our nice dps.. I didnt say we cant tank at all. I said WHY WASTE THE MANA! Guess people cant read.. heh. 1 in 4 times I beat a wiz or warlock in dps cause they get resisted and then they cant do beans for 36 sec's Woot. Scout can beat me every 5 minutes.. cause thats how long their big one takes to reload.

[Gronker]

---

Moskito wrote:

I tank every day, too. But the OP is right with the statement that a 50 Guardian outtankes a 50 Bruiser. There is now way that we are equal.

 

Lets compare a lvl 50 Bruiser (me) and a lvl 50 Guardian (guildmate)

 

 

But still - the guardian has

~ +1.500 HP

~ +1.300 AC

 

An in raid encounter this makes the difference.

 

---

As usual, like in EQ1, someone throws in the "yeah but you n00bs know nothing about the end-game" crud.  The OP didn't say anything about raiding, yet lets just throw that in to ensure "I'm right, you are wrong" and try to put extra weight in by implying you know more being the big level 50 raider.  Can't say I missed that attitude.

How about a little story.  Backtrack to Velious days ... those Warriors were tankin Vindi and statue and tormax and ... then everyone got geared up.  SKs and Pallies started tanking.  Then monks.  Then you know what?  The shammies and the chanters started tanking.  Heck a few guilds got so bored doing the same stuff over again they started trying to get all sorts of silly people tanking .. wizzie, necro, mage, lets try the mage's PET to tank.  How about the rogue?  Suuuuure.

Turned out warriors were probably one of the worst tanking classes.  Almost any class could out-aggro them, and with a proper CH chain even a wet-paper-bag wizzie could tank anything that couldn't one-round him/her.  What does that have to do with this thread?

You argue that HPs and AC are what "makes all the difference".  So you are going to tell me, without the extra 1500hps and 1300AC that the level 50 raids are untankable by a bruiser?  Assuming your gear was more 'at par' with the guardian in question, what would the difference be?  Is this now enough?  You'd probably say no ... so what would be enough?  Only 500hps/ac?  400?  Where is this line drawn for hp/ac that makes things impossible vs possible?  Yes I'm being rhetorical.  Try and combat this with something other than "when you get to raiding the same stuff I am you'll see" btw.

[Opa]

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kjames wrote:

...I didnt say we cant tank at all. I said WHY WASTE THE MANA! Guess people cant read.. heh....

---

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kjames wrote:

Am I the only one who knows that we are not TANKS! We are just a cool way of doing DPS My friend is a 50 guardian.. and he can tank me under the table! I can hold argo sure.. but why waste all that power healing my fragile butt

Message Edited by kjames on 03-02-2005 09:53 AM

---

 

People can read very well. For example, you said power the first time, not mana.

Nitpicking aside however, I suggest you put a little more thought into how you say what you say. On my interpretation your original post sound like a claim we couldn't tank.

I won't bother to discuss the relative DPS or other issues. I won't mention that there was no mention of healing partners, which any Brawler will tell you is the most important ingredient to our tanking. My point here was just to note that accusing people on not reading what you originally said is probably quite misguided.

[kjam]

Um AC means dic when it comes to how much damage is absorbed my the armor Light and Heavy hmmm . And if im such an idiot, and so wrong about my post. Why at my level have I never seen a monk/bruiser tank? Why does every group get mad when they have a SK or pally tank cause they are 2nd best to gruard's and zerker. Every time I get a /tell to a group.. its always for dps.. and never once for tanking, ever since I left TS some time ago. So in your MID 40's tell me about how much tanking your group ask ya to do. Im not saying we broke.. I love DPS with a stick.. looks awsome.

[Gaige]

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kjames wrote:

Um AC means dic when it comes to how much damage is absorbed my the armor Light and Heavy hmmm . And if im such an idiot, and so wrong about my post. Why at my level have I never seen a monk/bruiser tank? Why does every group get mad when they have a SK or pally tank cause they are 2nd best to gruard's and zerker. Every time I get a /tell to a group.. its always for dps.. and never once for tanking, ever since I left TS some time ago. So in your MID 40's tell me about how much tanking your group ask ya to do. Im not saying we broke.. I love DPS with a stick.. looks awsome.

---

Have you ever seen the eiffel tower?  Ever stepped foot on the moon?  Ever seen a glacier?

I tanked from 1 to 50 on my monk, and continue to do so.  Lots of us do.  You are the minority Captain DPS

[Opa]

Tanked every night in my mid 40's, and continue to. Maybe you're a level 51. In that case, your right, never seen anyone your level tank.

 

I'm sure someone, somewhere needs some DPS right now. If that's all you want to do, fine. Enough making an intricate dance of your position.

 

P.S. If you're using a stick, you might want to look again at what the "Brawl" skill does, if you want to up your DPS. At your level, I'd think you'd know better. Whatever that level might be, which I don't really care.

Message Edited by Opaki on 03-03-2005 11:54 AM

[SageMarrow]

well gage i respect ur opinion greatly and i feel both sides on this-

 

but most of the bruisers and monks are real advocates for balance so ive noticed- and honestly- our class in its current state is highly unbalancing - 2nd dps behind a  wiz as far as long term consistent dps is concerned and the best tanks up to scale so far... yeah- we are having our cake and eating it too right now -

 

im not asking for a nerf on anyone or anything of the sort - i actually hate the concept of full balance across the board in the mentality that a tank is a tank a healer a healer - caster a caster sort of deal - thins grps out and makes life fairly one sided. if a monk/bruiser is tanking - what do you need a guardian for- surely not the dps - and the buffs are easily replaced with a 2nd caster... raids are fine - but like i said earlier- thats less than 10% of the game!!!

 

so gage for you to say that guardians are working fine and they are the only ones who believe they should be fixed sounds more like a ploy for you to stay in the limelight as far as being the most rounded and preffered tank in your given environment. no disrespect but you wanted to be able to tank and im positive you wont give up ur dps in exchange for it... i for darn sure wouldnt= i didnt play this class personally to run exp grps and tank away 

 

- i like the body guard roll as for watching the casters backs - keeping mobs off of them and tanking when things get hairy and weve got 3 mobs in grp and the MT is taking a beating faster than he can be healed - and if you look at our skill list - this is the roll that our skills say - we all know that soe is attempting to stick to thier word as a far as every class being in the warrior archetype being able to "tank". long term this will definately get old - think about it - i dont wanna say im a tank i just look different than tin head over there - so many of you would be over whelmed if they gave us 1 good AE taunt when a taunt is a taunt - ur not unique in style or play at that point - u look different from a plate- but you still look just like every other monk/bruiser on your server lol...  

 

for that matter throw the enchanters a bone given that no one wants them for anything but buff machines- if you dont believe me ask one of the 10000 wizards and warlocks and beserkers runing around whos best attacks are AOE's...and  they really just slow down combat in the presence of a wiz or warlock- why kill mobs 1 at a time when you can kill 5 at once??? pointless. same principle here- best dps and best tank 1-49 non raid??? thats right? and mr balance advocate is okay with that? come on give me a break- we know better       

[Gaige]

---

SageMarrow wrote:

well gage i respect ur opinion greatly and i feel both sides on this-

 

but most of the bruisers and monks are real advocates for balance so ive noticed- and honestly- our class in its current state is highly unbalancing - 2nd dps behind a  wiz as far as long term consistent dps is concerned and the best tanks up to scale so far... yeah- we are having our cake and eating it too right now -

 

im not asking for a nerf on anyone or anything of the sort - i actually hate the concept of full balance across the board in the mentality that a tank is a tank a healer a healer - caster a caster sort of deal - thins grps out and makes life fairly one sided. if a monk/bruiser is tanking - what do you need a guardian for- surely not the dps - and the buffs are easily replaced with a 2nd caster... raids are fine - but like i said earlier- thats less than 10% of the game!!!

 

so gage for you to say that guardians are working fine and they are the only ones who believe they should be fixed sounds more like a ploy for you to stay in the limelight as far as being the most rounded and preffered tank in your given environment. no disrespect but you wanted to be able to tank and im positive you wont give up ur dps in exchange for it... i for darn sure wouldnt= i didnt play this class personally to run exp grps and tank away 

 

- i like the body guard roll as for watching the casters backs - keeping mobs off of them and tanking when things get hairy and weve got 3 mobs in grp and the MT is taking a beating faster than he can be healed - and if you look at our skill list - this is the roll that our skills say - we all know that soe is attempting to stick to thier word as a far as every class being in the warrior archetype being able to "tank". long term this will definately get old - think about it - i dont wanna say im a tank i just look different than tin head over there - so many of you would be over whelmed if they gave us 1 good AE taunt when a taunt is a taunt - ur not unique in style or play at that point - u look different from a plate- but you still look just like every other monk/bruiser on your server lol...  

 

for that matter throw the enchanters a bone given that no one wants them for anything but buff machines- if you dont believe me ask one of the 10000 wizards and warlocks and beserkers runing around whos best attacks are AOE's...and  they really just slow down combat in the presence of a wiz or warlock- why kill mobs 1 at a time when you can kill 5 at once??? pointless. same principle here- best dps and best tank 1-49 non raid??? thats right? and mr balance advocate is okay with that? come on give me a break- we know better       

---

Oh I'm sorry that's not what I meant

[Stormewol]

---

SageMarrow wrote:

well gage i respect ur opinion greatly and i feel both sides on this-

 

but most of the bruisers and monks are real advocates for balance so ive noticed- and honestly- our class in its current state is highly unbalancing - 2nd dps behind a  wiz as far as long term consistent dps is concerned and the best tanks up to scale so far... yeah- we are having our cake and eating it too right now -

 

---

Best tanks?  I must have gotten off at the wrong bus stop again because I have missed something. 

 

Now I will say that we are tanks and very good tanks at that, but I'm lost at where you get the idea that we are the "best" tanks and under what situations and scenarios we would be considered the best tanks.

 

As far as where DPS is concerned, when I am tanking I'm no where near a scouts DPS output, I've yet to be able to see what it's like when someone else it taking the hits instead. 

 

 

 

[Redbed]

We can do above average DPS....or below average Tanking.  We cannot do both at once.  We dont have our cake and eat it also.....But we can our cake.....OR  eat it. 

[SageMarrow]

lol there is only one move that we cannot use when in front of the mob and thats sucker punch - on that line- which aint the quickest timer we got anyway - and fully buffed by our own buffs and others and by the time a mid-high level mobs defenses are

debuffed we land almost all of our specials and its very noticeable when we do- im told all the time-

 

WHILE tanking... we are directly compared to guadians since we are not equipped with caster type spells- we have set role as does a guardian- if we are tanks then okay - if we are dps  - then okay - but we are discussing tanks-

 

so in comparison to guardians - yes we are the better tank LvLs 1-49 for the ability to handle a damage spike which both classes endure - us moreso by maybe a difference of 200-300= pts (estimate) with our healing abilitys and the fact that when fighting mobs that we are "supposed to be" fighting  -

 

aka yellow ^^'s on down - we go several fights without much damage at all fully buffed- an experience i know that alot of bruisers and monks have seen - 5 out of 10 fights with little or no damage at all fully buffed - on top of that we deal alot more damage than they do making the relativity between time/damage reduce consequently, (more dps = less time fighting = less heals = obvious) 

 

no i dont have any numbers but these things are common sense- a taunt or two doesnt make that big of a difference when you are in an experience grp which is more than 70% of the content structure... so yeah - we are the better tank IMO for the greater portion of the consistent content in game. now if you could counter with what a guardian gets that makes a fight that much more drastic in the arena of killing mobs that matter which are everyday goblins - boars - whatever that get killed more often than any raid mobs are even attempted. we have a place in a grp with a guadian tanking - they dont have a place with us in grp tanking though.. argue that?

 

[Redbed]

Yes but when taking a mob head on we are spending power in Taunts.  We are getting parried, blocked and Riposted much more and generally spending power on things other then doing damage.  That cuts into our DPS.  Sometimes more on some mobs then others.  Plus our Mulitiple hit  line gets interrupted sooner.  We can tank, I personally dont like to do it but I can do it.  Its just not what Im best at, because Ive built my character up with choosing Attack and Power Traits over Defense and HPs.  Thats all Im trying to get across.  Some Bruisers will Tank better then others because they built themselves up to Tank.  Others will Attack and do more damage then others because...they built themselves up that way.  No two bruisers can be the same unless they are built the same and played by the same person.  Just try to find a way to have fun somewhere in there.