What's the point of giving Brawlers the highest HP?

[JBo]

First of all, I am not against the class balancing. Actually, I was the first one ever to post on class balancing issues since EQII released.

 

However, SOE has definitely gone way too far this time.

 

Let's take a view what each subclass take and give. I will compare monks with guardians.

 

1) Monk: Highest HP, Highest Avoidance, Highest DPS, Medium Heal, Lowest Mitigation,  Lowest Power.

2) Guardian: Medium HP, Lowest Avoidance, Lowest DPS, No Heal, Highest Mitigation,  Medium Power.

 

In the 6 important areas which are vital to fighters:

 

Monks got 3 high ranks, 1 medium rank, 2 low ranks.

Guardians got 1 high rank, 2 medium ranks, 2 low ranks, and 1 no rank.

 

Can anyone do some math and tell me this is balanced?

 

SOE, if you truely want to make the fighter classes balanced, please correct this issue as soon as possible!

 

If you think it's difficult to balance the fighter subclasses, why not just go the simple way:

 

Let all fighter classes have the same HP!

 

If you are a monk and you want maximum HP, you can still work on your Stamina and maximize it.

 

I haven't posted in a while, but I can assure you that I am not going to stop posting until this serious issue being resolved.

[Almeric_CoS]

In the end, the high mitigation of the Guardians counts for a lot more than being top in 1 category.  The high mitigation is balanced against high avoidance AND high hitpoints AND the occasional heal.

 

That's how valuable Guardian mitigation is =P

[JBo]

Please compare some numbers instead of just saying that some mitigation bonus is worth than all the others. Plus there is a mitigation cap there.

 

Monks currently are doing way more DPS than guardians. Do guardians take way less damages than monks? Plus most mobs do arcane damages, and the mitigation bonus guardians got don't even count to arcane damages.

 

Also, have these changes been fully tested in beta? Where is the product quality control?

 

Just take a look at PvP. There is just no chance for a guardian to win a monk right now, at same level.

 

Pluse, tank is NOT DPS.

 

If monks want to tank, please give up your DPS.

 

Until you have DPS in the same range as other fighter classes, please just give up tanking abilities.

 

[Almeric_CoS]

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JBoot wrote:

 

Do guardians take way less damages than monks?

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Yes.

 

 

 

[JBo]

Please post your parse to support your claim that monks are currently taking way more damages than guardians.

 

Please remember, for arcane damages, the mitigation don't even count. This means, guardians are taking EXACTLY SAME arcane damages as monks. And most epic mobs will certainly do arcane damages, in big numbers.

 

Suppose a monk and a guardian have same WIS and same arcane resistances. On a pull of Epic raid mobs, the boss mob will do the EXACTLY same arcane damages to both the monk and the guardian.

 

However, the guardian can be dead in one shot when the arcane damage is equal to his HP, while the extra HP monk got can save him from dying.

 

Is this the balance that you are talking about???

 

Is this what you are expecting???

 

Imagine if SOE gives different power pools to different mage classes, and the outroar it will bring.

 

[Almeric_CoS]

Look, I'm not parsing squat for you.

 

If you want some early proof, then keep trolling the monk forum:

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=21033

 

Other than that, go play and see combat in action for yourself.  Christ the patch just went live YESTERDAY.  Half the populace couldn't even play last night, and at least half of those who couldn't haven't taken the time to explore all their new powers yet.

 

I'm done feeding you now.  Take your ranting elsewhere, please.

 

 

[JBo]

If you don't want to post, please don't post.

 

You think I haven't played last night?

 

I don't even care to post on this forum if I haven't played.

 

This is just outrageous.

 

[Nefari]

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JBoot wrote:

Please post your parse to support your claim that monks are currently taking way more damages than guardians.

 

Please remember, for arcane damages, the mitigation don't even count. This means, guardians are taking EXACTLY SAME arcane damages as monks. And most epic mobs will certainly do arcane damages, in big numbers.

 

Suppose a monk and a guardian have same WIS and same arcane resistances. On a pull of Epic raid mobs, the boss mob will do the EXACTLY same arcane damages to both the monk and the guardian.

 

However, the guardian can be dead in one shot when the arcane damage is equal to his HP, while the extra HP monk got can save him from dying.

 

Is this the balance that you are talking about???

 

Is this what you are expecting???

 

Imagine if SOE gives different power pools to different mage classes, and the outroar it will bring.

 

---

1. Monks, in full defensive mode, still cannot take nearly the thumping a Guardian can.  Play the game, watch the Monk get aggro, and you'll see this.  We're better than we were, but we're still not plate tanks.  Your spot atop the tanking world isn't being challenged...though your taunts are now awful and need upgrading. 2. As for Epic mobs doing more arcane dmg...you are basing this on...?  From the way they have reworked the heals and cure lines, it's looking like TRAUMA AoE's are going to be more common now, not magical ones.  Also, if you read the patch notes...Epic mobs no longer can cast nukes far and away more powerful than PC's can.  No more 14k Ice Comets.  3. Have you even LOOKED at the differences?  They are NOT large. Seriously, play the game.  Just reading that Monks have more hp and posting makes you look like a fool.

[Bladewind]

I compared abilities with a gaurdian friend (we are both lvl 50), and she had several arts that did drastcially more damage than any of mine.  Are you sure about your dps claims?  My highest art does 405 max damage (with the rest in the 200-300 range), but hers was over 700, with others above 400...   Are you properly using yoru stances?  They make a tremendous difference in your abilities.  I participated in beta, and therefore had a good idea of what adjustments I had to make and how my new abilities worked.  If you just received all of your new abilities now, I'd suggest playing more and re-learning your class before claiming a disparity and demanding dps logs from anyone who disagreed with you.  You didn't show any post patch logs to verify your own claims anyway...  My dps is drasticlaly lower than what it was prepatch.  My guardian friend told me hers was significantly higher.  Sounds like balancing rather than disparity to me...

 

 

PS Arbitrarily picking categories and giving them equal wieght without sound reasoning makes for a flawed comparison.  Your inclusion of the heal when comparing monks to guardians is a good example.  The monk heal has little to no impact at all due to the long reuse timer.  The principle balance is between mitigation and avoidance.  If you look at a monk fully-self-buffed defensively and a guardian the same way, you'll see that the guardian has a higher mitigation advantage than the monk's avoidance advantage.   Going back to comparing with my friend, she had about 24-30% more mitigation than me, but I only had baout 20% more avoidance than her.  She was also wearing tobrin's eyepatch at the time and did not have a shield equipped, so both her mit and avoidance would increase even more if she were to equip into a full tanking mode.

Message Edited by Bladewind on 09-14-2005 11:12 AM

[Gaige]

LoL @ this thread.

[Neimhidh]

stop feeding the trolls.  :smileyvery-happy:

 

How about you parse and PROVE that monks are so uber and guardians suck so bad?

[Ceist X'Ta]

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Gaige wrote:LoL @ this thread.

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:smileyvery-happy: I'm with you Gaige LOL

[JBo]

Yes, you monks can laugh out loudly at this time.

But beware of the coming nerf bats. Don't cry when it comes, as it will hit you next time.

 

[Ceist X'Ta]

/Violin

[etch666]

I dont undertsnad why guardians are moaning so much.

 

Before changes you were far and away the best raid tank going, MT being the role you all created you char for, so you all say.

 

Now after changes guess what? You are still no.1 raid tank,  so whats the difference?

 

You have lost buffs etc but what does it means in the end? You will be the ones standing toe to toe with the dragons while we will be (hopefully) trying to contribute -something- to the raid that warrants a raid invite.

 

I see some guards talking about lack of dps, or utility compared to brawlers. Your utility before changes was probably just being MA, backup tank, offtank. None of that has changed either.

 

We can now tank comfortably, not as well as you. Please dont seek to get other classes nerfed because you are afraid your role will be taken away, which I can tell you now, it wont.

 

[bonesbro]

I believe the difference in naked, unbuffed HP is ~100.  It's a very small difference.  And please consider the impact of your buffs: Guardians can buff their HP.  Monk's can't.  Self-buffed, I have ~3900 HP and the MT Guardian in my guild has ~5200.

In my opinion, the argument for giving Brawlers the highest unbuffed HP is to slightly offset the damage streaks that avoidance tanking is prone to.  If you have two tanks who take exactly the same average damage per second over a long period of time, where one of them takes damage in spikes and one of them takes damage steadily, the one who takes steady damage is a better tank.  If we miss a couple of block rolls in a row against special attacks, we die.  A mitigation tank will be alive.  It doesn't matter if we blocked every hit for the last five minutes: splat.  If the avoidance tank had slightly higher HP, he might still be standing there with 12 hp, giving the group/raid a chance to not lose.  The mitigation tank doesn't need that minor advantage.

And, given that Guardians self-buff to significantly higher than Brawlers, it's a moot point, eh?

[Kota]

sounds like (censored) envy to me.  i've made several posts about low mitigation being un-forgiving for a tank.  avoidance is neat, but when a mob hits a monk, it makes a squishy noise.  you can make up your own numbers and run some scenarios, but basically the extra hp is to allow a healer to put down his/her soda, and cast a heal on a monk.  mitigation tanks' damage spikes are, well, mitigated.  the damage intake of a plate tank is more predictable.  please don't hate on the monks, or try to salt our game, yo.

[Tilane]

i got one shotted by an epicx2 today gaurdian in same group lived trough 3 hits ..

 

also his HP selfbuffed is allot higher then me

 

and i seriusly doubt it that on "see above" 1 shot mobs , we are supposed to be tanking the heals doesnt do much when dead ...

[TheHidden]

play a flipping monk before you go whining. ive been a monk since the first day and if you think they can tank you better wake up. after patch ive been nerfed somehwat cronic. in my perception at least. maybe game will get more challenging / or whatever.. but all my skills were cut in damage by close to 50%. my one defense skill that actually helped make me tank green mobs for my friends is gone. and my reistances are cut. i lost 22% to my total max avoidence. so in effect.. monks after patch. do WAY less damage then before. AND tank worse.. id hate to think that you uneducated unpractised whining had anything to do with it. green solo encounters are now a danger. and i can completly forget soloing theway i was doing before. these changes are to bring everyone more inline with eachother atthe highers levels. they did their homework. ugh..man those monks are uber and will tank well better than other classes is crap.. when a solo encounter 7 levels below you can wipe half your health at your max buffed levels and you see people have been whining about their stats... you just get a lil annoyed.

[Zink]

OMG!

 

Askan

 

Valhall - Splitpaw

[Gaige]

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JBoot wrote:

However, the guardian can be dead in one shot when the arcane damage is equal to his HP, while the extra HP monk got can save him from dying.

---

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Wow.

Dude you should try stand up.  Seriously.  I'm crying irl.

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TheHidden wrote:
but all my skills were cut in damage by close to 50%. my one defense skill that actually helped make me tank green mobs for my friends is gone. and my reistances are cut. i lost 22% to my total max avoidence.

so in effect.. monks after patch. do WAY less damage then before. AND tank worse.. id hate to think that you uneducated unpractised whining had anything to do with it. green solo encounters are now a danger. and i can completly forget soloing theway i was doing before.

---

1) You need to compare your current skills/attributes to other classes skills/attributes.  You just can not compare pre-DoF to DoF.  Everything has changed.

2)  You need to take some time and learn how to play your monk.  We do less DPS but its still more than adequate.  We tank WAY better.  We hold aggro way better, even through the loss of the broken reactives.  Green solos should *not* be a danger if you are using your skills correctly and playing your class adequately.

Remember, its only been live, what, 40 hours or so?  You have a lot to learn about the new monk class.

I for one can't think of anything about the monk class pre-changes that I prefer over the current monk.  But maybe I'm biased.

Message Edited by Gaige on 09-15-2005 07:52 AM

[Lebr]

Whats really funny is the fact  he posted on the monk board like he expected monks to say "Yeah your right

The game feels so much better now  just being able to hold aggro is really nice. /bow

[Jobeson]

I sorta agree with him now though.  When I am in a group I have 65% avoidance and 2000 mitigation a guardian in the same group with a shield and all is 2500 mitigation and around 30% avoidance  When I ask him what his mitigation percentage is he tells me around 47%  I personly think their mitigation should be closer to 60% to counter our avoidance.  (60% mitigation 30% avoidance guardians and 60% avoidance 30% mitigation monks) these are just average stats ofcourse gear means all the difference and I am half fabled hes only like 2 items or so but he still is only 500 more mitigation in full ebon.  oh and up it for the other plate classes aswell ofcourse. ATM I am better than my guardian friend and holding ONEMOBs hate and tanking in a group setting.  In a raid setting I am not sure havnt done those yet its only been a day.  But I do think plate tanks need more mitigation then what they have.  all hail the new MT WOOT!?

Message Edited by Jobeson on 09-15-2005 08:55 AM

[Brus]

----------- play a flipping monk before you go whining. ive been a monk since the first day and if you think they can tank you better wake up. after patch ive been nerfed somehwat cronic. in my perception at least. maybe game will get more challenging / or whatever.. but all my skills were cut in damage by close to 50%. my one defense skill that actually helped make me tank green mobs for my friends is gone. and my reistances are cut. i lost 22% to my total max avoidence. when a solo encounter 7 levels below you can wipe half your health at your max buffed levels and you see people have been whining about their stats... you just get a lil annoyed. ----------- Um, TheHidden... I mean no disrespect since you obviously have played a monk a far greater amount of time than I have however if you will accept some advice from a relative monk n00b might I suggest perhaps you wear your armor and wield your weapons instead of keeping them safe and shiny in your bags? Perhaps you are having problems with the new half sized bag bug that came about if you used a custom UI prior to DOF.  There is a fix posted on the Desert of Flames message section then you can find your armor and weapons easier so they can be worn. Of course that is kind of insulting but it's a possibility if green mobs are taking you to the backroom like that without so much as a kiss before or after.  Another possibility might be that the armor you received on the refugee island.  At this point (I'm presuming that you're over level 20 by now), that armor and attendent weapons are what they call 'gray' and no longer afford any protective or damage benefits.  I'm sure a local craftsman would be happy to hook you up with some level appropriate gear at  a fairly affordable price.  Perhaps if you showed him this post s/he might even do it for free out of charity (I've found EQ2 players to be a fairly friendly bunch). My monk is merely level 24 and as tempted as I've been to twink him I've only given in twice (he has a pair of rare weapons).  My armor is nothing to write home about, all dropped stuff, some of it getting a bit green or grey around the edges.  I'll go further to admit that I didn't go monk until the frogloks came in (I'm sure you can guess my race now).  So my experience is nowhere near as vast as yours.  I, however, rarely get the beat down from yellow con on down solo mobs.  I can take an orange if I'm feeling daring though I'm about 50/50 on victory rate. I have only tanked for a group twice (I picked monk for it's solo ability which seemed very high watching my guild monks while not being stupid as in watching our guild warlocks own everything shy of epics and rumors abound).  The first time I did so I admit we got owned an even con named.  Being a healer by nature I forgot that you guys actually have and use taunt.  My healer was very forgiving and we all got quite a laugh out of it.  The second attempt on the named went much better. My second group tanking experience was silly easy, we were taking out everything we came across in TS and I was taking the hits just fine.  As has been noted, avoidance tanks do suffer a problem in the old theory between a flyweight and a super heavy weight boxer.  Sure the flyweight is faster but it only takes ONE hit from the heavy weight and he's got all night to land it.  That's the burden of the monk/bruiser though and we all made that choice.  Generally speaking I'd say our guild monks in group at least tank as well as our guardians.  In raids we all prefer our guardians though we've had some nice saves by our monks. In all seriousness though, I feel you really need to look into your gear and playing style if you're getting owned by greens.  First char I turned to when DoF went live was my monk because I wanted to get an idea of how healing was going to look before I logged on my Inqi.  Walk a mile in their shoes and all that nonsense.  I hopped over to TS, picked a likely looking solo white con and went to town.  Was a bit different, a bit slower than I'm used to but really no issue.  In fact I think I took less damage than I normally did pre-DoF.  I know that's not hard parser data or nothing but well, if you're getting pwned by green solos and I'm eating up white solos.... Cheers, Sohr Level 50ish Inqi (and 24ish monk, and 20ish wizard, and 30ish dirge) Healing Officer Infinity Guild Oasis "Nobody expects the Ratonga Inquisition!"

[bonesbro]

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Jobeson wrote:
I sorta agree with him now though.  When I am in a group I have 65% avoidance and 2000 mitigation a guardian in the same group with a shield and all is 2500 mitigation and around 30% avoidance 

When I ask him what his mitigation percentage is he tells me around 47%  I personly think their mitigation should be closer to 60% to counter our avoidance.  (60% mitigation 30% avoidance guardians and 60% avoidance 30% mitigation monks) these are just average stats ofcourse gear means all the difference and I am half fabled hes only like 2 items or so but he still is only 500 more mitigation in full ebon.  oh and up it for the other plate classes aswell ofcourse.

Message Edited by Jobeson on 09-15-2005 08:55 AM

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Hmm.  From comparing with my guild's MT, he's got ~950 more mitigation and has about 50% avoidance to my 65%, as well as 1300 more HP.  His gear is better - he's mostly fabled, I'm mostly legendary/treasured.  But the avoidance number is the most interesting - I wonder why your tank is at 30% avoidance and ours is at 50%?  That's self-buffed in defensive stance.

[Waung]

have to say i'm loving the changes!  sure my mitigation/HP stayed the same and my avoidance went down about 18% but the mobs all got changed too so who knows what that means.  i'm having a blast and really enjoying the new stuff, my offensive stance is actuallly worth something (i even solo'd a yellow 1 down and forgot to change to defensive but i rocked em).  i'm soloing better than i did before the patch against solo mobs, but heroics demolish me without a group, which is how it should be imo.  this entire thread just makes me laugh, all i seem to see in these forums is guardians whining and moaning about what other classes have that they dont, or a class is better than them at something, quit crying, it's a game play it and enjoy it.  if you cant do that find another game,

[Raahl]

I come here to see how Monks like the changes and I very disappointedly find Jboot here taunting the monks.  Sigh

 

It's a little early to be able to say that your extra HP's are really that big of a bonus.  Though I do see Jboots point.   You traded mitigation for more HP's.  Again it's too early to really see the impact of this. 

 

And yes a guardians mitigation got severely nerfed.   I take a lot more damage now and very rarely does a mob miss me.  I only hope that the healers can keep up with the damage.  If our mitigation base was a tad higher it might not be as bad.

 

Again Jboot stop taunting the Monks.  :smileywink:

[x0rtrun]

You really have to remember that it's just the base hp that has changed and it's only gone up by a very small amount. We can't buff our hp like a guardian can, and itemization seems to favour more hp on plate gear. Once the guard is buffed, there is no contest.

[Neimhidh]

Apparantly, Jbooties has decided that now even mages tank better than guardians... :smileyvery-happy:

 

I for one think that all mobs should beat up the mages first in all fights.

 

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519

 

Message Edited by Neimhidh on 09-15-2005 02:31 PM

[Raahl]

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Neimhidh wrote:

Apparantly, Jbooties has decided that now even mages tank better than guardians... :smileyvery-happy:

 

I for one think that all mobs should beat up the mages first in all fights.

 

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17519

 

Message Edited by Neimhidh on 09-15-2005 02:31 PM

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Hey if what he says in that thread happened, monks are in trouble too.   Have not grouped with a necro yet.  But if they are not getting hit, I'd say there is a problem.    Any mage type should be in trouble if a mob gets on them.