Why the Buckler line is misunderstood

premiere · 07-24-2006, 05:34 AM

Hey guys just wanted to clear some things up about the buckler line.

This is me with 2 healers on a raid setup a dirge and the good stuff hp kinda low yeah but only have 2 healers. This is the max u can get your avoid to on a raid with the Ironplate Shielding. I think this is something most people dont see when they think about going down the stamina line. Will discuss the other benefits and negatives later just wanted to start a thread about this.

premiere · 07-24-2006, 05:46 AM

Your avoidance % is calculated by your base avoidance added to the average b/w block and parry

Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base.

As far as I have known your base avoidance is the % chance per hit for you to not be hit from the front and all 3 quadrants. The block as far as I know is frontal only quadrant same with riposte. From what I have seen the buckler line gives you more % avoid from multiple quadrants while losing avoidance from frontal quadrants.

Assuming you are tanking 1 BIG named you simply pop on your best shield.

This increases the chance the mob will not hit you overall because you will only be getting hit from straight on in the front.

With multiple mobs surrounding you you are getting hit from multiple quadrants plus the front so it is more beneficial to have the avoidance in more quadrants then just the front.

Its give and take but the dps is worth it for aggro control.

Baldaena · 07-25-2006, 01:19 AM

premiere wrote:

Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base.

Wrong, the avoidance formula is :

Avoidance% = 1- (1-base%)(1-parry%)(1-block%)(1-deflection%)

mctiger3000 · 07-25-2006, 07:15 PM

We dont get deflection so thats outa formula we have deff parry block in avodince formula

deff = base if ya dont belive me take off all deff buffs, armor, and watch avodince drop

Message Edited by mctiger3000 on 07-25-2006 08:19 AM

Pins · 07-25-2006, 07:19 PM

mctiger3000 wrote:gaurds dont get deflection so thats outa formula we have deff parry block in avodince formula

Hence if your deflection % is 0, then 1-0 is 1! Which gives the right formula. Using the picture as an example:1-(1-.476)(1-.101)(1-.300)(1-0) is .6702468, or 67.0% avoidance, which is exactly what the image shows.

ReviloTX · 07-25-2006, 10:08 PM

Baldaena wrote:

premiere wrote:

Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base.

Wrong, the avoidance formula is :

Avoidance% = 1- (1-base%)(1-parry%)(1-block%)(1-deflection%)

And where does the 4.5% riposte factor in?

Dahntahl · 07-25-2006, 10:30 PM

ReviloTX wrote:

Baldaena wrote:

premiere wrote:

Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base.

Wrong, the avoidance formula is :

Avoidance% = 1- (1-base%)(1-parry%)(1-block%)(1-deflection%)

And where does the 4.5% riposte factor in?

A riposte occurs on a successful parry - so doesn't have its own avoidance number.

Lyrus · 07-26-2006, 04:37 PM

the 4.5% frontal riposte/rear Parry are a special case, since the parry does indeed let you parry mobs behind you which is normally somethng that doesn't happen unless you're a brawler. It's my understanding that since this is a special case, that it's hidden.

Wabit · 07-26-2006, 10:20 PM

Lyrus-D wrote:
the 4.5% frontal riposte/rear Parry are a special case, since the parry does indeed let you parry mobs behind you which is normally somethng that doesn't happen unless you're a brawler. It's my understanding that since this is a special case, that it's hidden.

it adds to your base avoidance somehow like ~3% higher base between equiping a buckler from a tower each with no agi on them...

i think they had to code it this way from when it was completely buged and solo guards had more avoidance than raidbuffed monks...

FightGame · 07-27-2006, 01:34 AM

must not be that great...I see 23%+ DEBT! lol.

Maybe if you had a tower shield (even more avoidance) with mitigation, you'd only be at 22%. haha jk

premiere · 07-27-2006, 09:51 PM

Thanks for the correction on the formula dont see how I figured that firmula out but anyways. The point I was trying to make by this thread is ultimately the sacrifice for avoidance is very minimal by using buckler with this line vs using a Tower shield. The DPS accrued makes up for the lack of block % by making aggro a non-issue whether guard a berserker. Taken it has never been much of an issue for me but on raids as a secondary tank the issue can become getting aggro off MT or Raid when Reinforcement and Rescue are down. It makes gaining and maintaining aggro much easier and it allows you to contribute more on a raid then just standing around. The positives for this line outweigh the negatives for the simple pure fact that this line enables you to have the freedom to switch b/w the buckler and tower shield depending on the fight or even during the fight. I have tanked mobs before where I would put the buckler on when I had multiple mobs and switched back to the tower when there was only one mob left. Nonetheless it offers a level of freedom to be the Ultimate defensive tank while having the freedom to be the ultimate offensive tank or a hybrid mix of the two that doesnt sacrifice much defense.

For all the tanks out there who can be open minded and who get tired of switching b/w tower 1h to 2h and back then this line offers the ultimate ease to only have to switch one item which is the shield during combat. One more thing.

I have said before that I have personally tanked many bigger end game mobs with a buckler equipped and had no issues nor complaints from healers.

Did you also know the first guild to take down Cheldrak game wides Main tank uses the buckler line? TRUE

matinisback · 07-28-2006, 03:23 PM

omg and i thaught guardian's were dumb i was thinking about makeing a guardian but after seeing all this math crap i have second thaughts:smileyindifferent:

Lyrus · 07-28-2006, 07:31 PM

Wabit wrote:

Lyrus-D wrote:the 4.5% frontal riposte/rear Parry are a special case, since the parry does indeed let you parry mobs behind you which is normally somethng that doesn't happen unless you're a brawler. It's my understanding that since this is a special case, that it's hidden.

it adds to your base avoidance somehow like ~3% higher base between equiping a buckler from a tower each with no agi on them...

i think they had to code it this way from when it was completely buged and solo guards had more avoidance than raidbuffed monks...

Nah, that would be from the description that you gain a higher chance to outright dodge (base avoidance) and block(puts block percentage right around 10%). In addition, riposting 4.5% attacks that occur in the frontal quadrant, attacks in all other quadrants have a 4.5% chance of being parried. The reason why I believe that it is hidden is there are 3 portions of the passive skill. The outright chance to dodge which affects base avoidance, the higher chance to block which modifies block percentage, and the 360 Parry Riposte which doesn't appear to modify anything.

Wabit · 07-28-2006, 09:31 PM

Lyrus-D wrote:

Nah, that would be from the description that you gain a higher chance to outright dodge (base avoidance) and block(puts block percentage right around 10%). In addition, riposting 4.5% attacks that occur in the frontal quadrant, attacks in all other quadrants have a 4.5% chance of being parried. The reason why I believe that it is hidden is there are 3 portions of the passive skill. The outright chance to dodge which affects base avoidance, the higher chance to block which modifies block percentage, and the 360 Parry Riposte which doesn't appear to modify anything.

avoid with vilucidae's ethereal guard... 56.8% total, base 33.1, block 20.4, parry 18.9

avoid with etheral buckler of bylze... 52.4 total, 35.5 base, 8.9 block, 18.9 parry...

so i think that the description mains it goes into your base... mobs can still miss you if they are behind you, this just adds to it... and rememeber this is sony, 2+2 = 47 at times...

2.4% base avoidance difference has to come from somewhere... and neither shield has any agi on it...

i said i'd try the line out if someone gave me 13p, i still can't beleive someone did...

Message Edited by Wabit on 07-28-2006 01:37 PM

Anariale · 08-03-2006, 06:31 PM

Looking at my Avoidance when switching between Tower and Buckler... its this:

Base = Base% * (1+Avoidance%)

Block = Block% * (1+Buckler Block Bonus%)

Parry = Parry

Its not:

Base+Avoidance%

Block+Block%

Thus, the benefit of this AA is very very minimal... if you go by the display.

W

notyou · 08-04-2006, 11:19 AM

So are you all thinking of getting the Qeynos Cutlass if you finish your claymore then?I tried out the buckler line and thought that I didn't see huge DPS improvements but now that I have respecced back to tower shield I think I do see a significant decrease in DPS. I assume this is the main reason people are using the buckler line.. to improve DPS with minimal, if any, loss in tanking ability.Also, where are you all distributing all your points exactly then when using the buckler line?

Message Edited by notyou on 08-04-2006 12:23 AM

Sir_Halbarad · 08-04-2006, 03:23 PM

notyou wrote:

So are you all thinking of getting the Qeynos Cutlass if you finish your claymore then?I tried out the buckler line and thought that I didn't see huge DPS improvements but now that I have respecced back to tower shield I think I do see a significant decrease in DPS. I assume this is the main reason people are using the buckler line.. to improve DPS with minimal, if any, loss in tanking ability.Also, where are you all distributing all your points exactly then when using the buckler line?

Message Edited by notyou on 08-04-2006 12:23 AM

Even though I have the buckler line, I wouldnt choose the Cutlass as Claymore reward, I think I would still pick the shield. Many weapons out there with similar damage and even though you use a buckler for the daily work, there will be moments where you need a fat tower shield. That's why my choice still is the qeynos guard.

Concerning the aa build. Here is what I have and I am very happy with it:

STA 4/5/8/8

WIS 4/4/8/8

Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on 08-06-2006 09:04 AM

TanRaistlyn · 08-05-2006, 12:37 AM

Sir_Halbarad wrote:

notyou wrote:

So are you all thinking of getting the Qeynos Cutlass if you finish your claymore then?

I tried out the buckler line and thought that I didn't see huge DPS improvements but now that I have respecced back to tower shield I think I do see a significant decrease in DPS. I assume this is the main reason people are using the buckler line.. to improve DPS with minimal, if any, loss in tanking ability.

Also, where are you all distributing all your points exactly then when using the buckler line?
Message Edited by notyou on 08-04-2006 12:23 AM

Even though I have the buckler line, I wouldnt choose the Cutlass as Claymore reward, I think I would still pick the shield. Many weapons out there with similar damage and even though you use a buckler for the daily work, there will be moments where you need a fat tower shield. That's why my choice still is the qeynos guard.

Concerning the aa build. Here is what I have and I am very happy with it:

STR 4/5/8/8

WIS 4/4/8/8

Pretty sure like every MT in a raiding guild took that Build - or one almost the same

Str 4/8/5/8

Wis 4/4/8/8

Here

Ratty31 · 08-05-2006, 01:36 AM

Switched to buckler line one day cause I was bored and I never changed back, it's so overpowered it's not even funny. Str line is a complete waste imo.

Message Edited by Ratty31 on 08-04-2006 04:37 PM

notyou · 08-05-2006, 05:52 AM

STR and WIS?So you aren't using the buckler line? Buckler line is STA.I currently have 4-5-8-8 STR and 4-4-8-8 WIS.

Pins · 08-05-2006, 10:06 PM

TanRaistlyn wrote:

Pretty sure like every MT in a raiding guild took that Build - or one almost the same

Str 4/8/5/8

Wis 4/4/8/8

Here

Go STA, and you'll be happy with doing more DPS, thus holding better aggro. Sure you won't avoid as much(but meh). I think a large majority of tanks that took Chel'Drak out are STA/WIS spec'd.

Sir_Halbarad · 08-06-2006, 08:05 PM

notyou wrote:STR and WIS?So you aren't using the buckler line? Buckler line is STA.I currently have 4-5-8-8 STR and 4-4-8-8 WIS.

Oops!Mistyped SMILEY

Edited post above SMILEY

Lyrus · 08-07-2006, 08:28 PM

Pinski wrote:

TanRaistlyn wrote:

Pretty sure like every MT in a raiding guild took that Build - or one almost the same

Str 4/8/5/8

Wis 4/4/8/8

Here

Go STA, and you'll be happy with doing more DPS, thus holding better aggro. Sure you won't avoid as much(but meh). I think a large majority of tanks that took Chel'Drak out are STA/WIS spec'd.

If the wisdom line wasn't so vital, I'd rather have the +hate and critical chance from the Strength line. For any non-raid tanking guardian, that'd be what I would recommend.*In addition to the stamina line I mean.

Message Edited by Lyrus-D on 08-07-2006 09:31 AM

Turb · 08-07-2006, 08:51 PM

Which would you build up first? STA or WIS?

Sir_Halbarad · 08-08-2006, 03:19 PM

Personally I did WIS 4/4/4/8 - then finished STA for final spec 4/5/8/8 and then put the last points to WIS again (4/4/8/ SMILEY

If you never tank raids, I think sta line first may be better.

Lyrus · 08-08-2006, 05:39 PM

For tanking raids, I'd agree, I'd get unshakeable 8 before anything else.For a non-raid tanking guardian, I'd recommend this spec for maximum damage and agro; Str 4 4 8 8, Sta: 4 5 8 8

Anariale · 08-08-2006, 06:20 PM

I started out with Buckler, but just recently respec'd to the Agility line.

Its kinda a tossup right now. No, I dont do the ST damage that I did with the buckler... but the 24% chance to hit all the mobs in front of me really helps with that AE aggro.

Wabit · 08-08-2006, 09:18 PM

if ya wanna have some fun try out str/agi/sta 4/4/8 SMILEY

notyou · 08-09-2006, 07:05 AM

Ok, I'll try out the STA line again. I do definitely see a big drop in DMG switching from STA back to STR. This [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing is going to make my respecs so expensive SMILEY

Lyrus · 08-09-2006, 10:25 AM

Wabit wrote:
if ya wanna have some fun try out str/agi/sta 4/4/8

Yeah, that'd be an awesome pure DPS spec. Only thing I'd wonder is how much difference 19% dps mod makes.

07-24-2006, 05:34 AM	#1
premiere Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 52	Hey guys just wanted to clear some things up about the buckler line. This is me with 2 healers on a raid setup a dirge and the good stuff hp kinda low yeah but only have 2 healers. This is the max u can get your avoid to on a raid with the Ironplate Shielding. I think this is something most people dont see when they think about going down the stamina line. Will discuss the other benefits and negatives later just wanted to start a thread about this. __________________

07-24-2006, 05:46 AM	#2
premiere Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 52	Your avoidance % is calculated by your base avoidance added to the average b/w block and parry Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base. As far as I have known your base avoidance is the % chance per hit for you to not be hit from the front and all 3 quadrants. The block as far as I know is frontal only quadrant same with riposte. From what I have seen the buckler line gives you more % avoid from multiple quadrants while losing avoidance from frontal quadrants. Assuming you are tanking 1 BIG named you simply pop on your best shield. This increases the chance the mob will not hit you overall because you will only be getting hit from straight on in the front. With multiple mobs surrounding you you are getting hit from multiple quadrants plus the front so it is more beneficial to have the avoidance in more quadrants then just the front. Its give and take but the dps is worth it for aggro control. __________________

07-25-2006, 01:19 AM	#3
Baldaena Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 247	premiere wrote: Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base. Wrong, the avoidance formula is : Avoidance% = 1- (1-base%)(1-parry%)(1-block%)(1-deflection%)

07-25-2006, 07:19 PM	#5
Pins General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,040	mctiger3000 wrote:gaurds dont get deflection so thats outa formula we have deff parry block in avodince formula Hence if your deflection % is 0, then 1-0 is 1! Which gives the right formula. Using the picture as an example:1-(1-.476)(1-.101)(1-.300)(1-0) is .6702468, or 67.0% avoidance, which is exactly what the image shows. __________________ Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

07-25-2006, 10:08 PM	#6
ReviloTX Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 234	Baldaena wrote: premiere wrote: Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base. Wrong, the avoidance formula is : Avoidance% = 1- (1-base%)(1-parry%)(1-block%)(1-deflection%) And where does the 4.5% riposte factor in?

07-25-2006, 07:15 PM	#4
mctiger3000 Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11	We dont get deflection so thats outa formula we have deff parry block in avodince formula deff = base if ya dont belive me take off all deff buffs, armor, and watch avodince drop Message Edited by mctiger3000 on 07-25-2006 08:19 AM

07-25-2006, 10:30 PM	#7
Dahntahl Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	ReviloTX wrote: Baldaena wrote: premiere wrote: Basically they add parry% block% divide by two and add that to your base. Wrong, the avoidance formula is : Avoidance% = 1- (1-base%)(1-parry%)(1-block%)(1-deflection%) And where does the 4.5% riposte factor in? A riposte occurs on a successful parry - so doesn't have its own avoidance number.

07-26-2006, 04:37 PM	#8
Lyrus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	the 4.5% frontal riposte/rear Parry are a special case, since the parry does indeed let you parry mobs behind you which is normally somethng that doesn't happen unless you're a brawler. It's my understanding that since this is a special case, that it's hidden.

07-26-2006, 10:20 PM	#9
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	Lyrus-D wrote: the 4.5% frontal riposte/rear Parry are a special case, since the parry does indeed let you parry mobs behind you which is normally somethng that doesn't happen unless you're a brawler. It's my understanding that since this is a special case, that it's hidden. it adds to your base avoidance somehow like ~3% higher base between equiping a buckler from a tower each with no agi on them... i think they had to code it this way from when it was completely buged and solo guards had more avoidance than raidbuffed monks... __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

07-27-2006, 01:34 AM	#10
FightGame Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 548	must not be that great...I see 23%+ DEBT! lol. Maybe if you had a tower shield (even more avoidance) with mitigation, you'd only be at 22%. haha jk __________________

07-27-2006, 09:51 PM	#11
premiere Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 52	Thanks for the correction on the formula dont see how I figured that firmula out but anyways. The point I was trying to make by this thread is ultimately the sacrifice for avoidance is very minimal by using buckler with this line vs using a Tower shield. The DPS accrued makes up for the lack of block % by making aggro a non-issue whether guard a berserker. Taken it has never been much of an issue for me but on raids as a secondary tank the issue can become getting aggro off MT or Raid when Reinforcement and Rescue are down. It makes gaining and maintaining aggro much easier and it allows you to contribute more on a raid then just standing around. The positives for this line outweigh the negatives for the simple pure fact that this line enables you to have the freedom to switch b/w the buckler and tower shield depending on the fight or even during the fight. I have tanked mobs before where I would put the buckler on when I had multiple mobs and switched back to the tower when there was only one mob left. Nonetheless it offers a level of freedom to be the Ultimate defensive tank while having the freedom to be the ultimate offensive tank or a hybrid mix of the two that doesnt sacrifice much defense. For all the tanks out there who can be open minded and who get tired of switching b/w tower 1h to 2h and back then this line offers the ultimate ease to only have to switch one item which is the shield during combat. One more thing. I have said before that I have personally tanked many bigger end game mobs with a buckler equipped and had no issues nor complaints from healers. Did you also know the first guild to take down Cheldrak game wides Main tank uses the buckler line? TRUE __________________

07-28-2006, 03:23 PM	#12
matinisback Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 71	omg and i thaught guardian's were dumb i was thinking about makeing a guardian but after seeing all this math crap i have second thaughts:smileyindifferent: __________________

07-28-2006, 07:31 PM	#13
Lyrus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	Wabit wrote: Lyrus-D wrote:the 4.5% frontal riposte/rear Parry are a special case, since the parry does indeed let you parry mobs behind you which is normally somethng that doesn't happen unless you're a brawler. It's my understanding that since this is a special case, that it's hidden. it adds to your base avoidance somehow like ~3% higher base between equiping a buckler from a tower each with no agi on them... i think they had to code it this way from when it was completely buged and solo guards had more avoidance than raidbuffed monks... Nah, that would be from the description that you gain a higher chance to outright dodge (base avoidance) and block(puts block percentage right around 10%). In addition, riposting 4.5% attacks that occur in the frontal quadrant, attacks in all other quadrants have a 4.5% chance of being parried. The reason why I believe that it is hidden is there are 3 portions of the passive skill. The outright chance to dodge which affects base avoidance, the higher chance to block which modifies block percentage, and the 360 Parry Riposte which doesn't appear to modify anything.

07-28-2006, 09:31 PM	#14
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	Lyrus-D wrote: Nah, that would be from the description that you gain a higher chance to outright dodge (base avoidance) and block(puts block percentage right around 10%). In addition, riposting 4.5% attacks that occur in the frontal quadrant, attacks in all other quadrants have a 4.5% chance of being parried. The reason why I believe that it is hidden is there are 3 portions of the passive skill. The outright chance to dodge which affects base avoidance, the higher chance to block which modifies block percentage, and the 360 Parry Riposte which doesn't appear to modify anything. avoid with vilucidae's ethereal guard... 56.8% total, base 33.1, block 20.4, parry 18.9 avoid with etheral buckler of bylze... 52.4 total, 35.5 base, 8.9 block, 18.9 parry... so i think that the description mains it goes into your base... mobs can still miss you if they are behind you, this just adds to it... and rememeber this is sony, 2+2 = 47 at times... 2.4% base avoidance difference has to come from somewhere... and neither shield has any agi on it... i said i'd try the line out if someone gave me 13p, i still can't beleive someone did... Message Edited by Wabit on 07-28-2006 01:37 PM __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

08-03-2006, 06:31 PM	#15
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	Looking at my Avoidance when switching between Tower and Buckler... its this: Base = Base% * (1+Avoidance%) Block = Block% * (1+Buckler Block Bonus%) Parry = Parry Its not: Base+Avoidance% Block+Block% Thus, the benefit of this AA is very very minimal... if you go by the display. W __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

08-04-2006, 11:19 AM	#16
notyou Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	So are you all thinking of getting the Qeynos Cutlass if you finish your claymore then?I tried out the buckler line and thought that I didn't see huge DPS improvements but now that I have respecced back to tower shield I think I do see a significant decrease in DPS. I assume this is the main reason people are using the buckler line.. to improve DPS with minimal, if any, loss in tanking ability.Also, where are you all distributing all your points exactly then when using the buckler line? Message Edited by notyou on 08-04-2006 12:23 AM

08-04-2006, 03:23 PM	#17
Sir_Halbarad Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 4 Bayle Court, South Qeynos Posts: 509	notyou wrote: So are you all thinking of getting the Qeynos Cutlass if you finish your claymore then?I tried out the buckler line and thought that I didn't see huge DPS improvements but now that I have respecced back to tower shield I think I do see a significant decrease in DPS. I assume this is the main reason people are using the buckler line.. to improve DPS with minimal, if any, loss in tanking ability.Also, where are you all distributing all your points exactly then when using the buckler line? Message Edited by notyou on 08-04-2006 12:23 AM Even though I have the buckler line, I wouldnt choose the Cutlass as Claymore reward, I think I would still pick the shield. Many weapons out there with similar damage and even though you use a buckler for the daily work, there will be moments where you need a fat tower shield. That's why my choice still is the qeynos guard. Concerning the aa build. Here is what I have and I am very happy with it: STA 4/5/8/8 WIS 4/4/8/8 Message Edited by Sir_Halbarad on 08-06-2006 09:04 AM __________________ Halbaradx - Guardian Dunamis - Splitpaw Dunamis is recruiting - visit us at www.dunamis-eq2.com Open Spots: Inquisitor \| Mystic \| Fury \| Sorcerer

08-05-2006, 12:37 AM	#18
TanRaistlyn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 472	Sir_Halbarad wrote: notyou wrote: So are you all thinking of getting the Qeynos Cutlass if you finish your claymore then? I tried out the buckler line and thought that I didn't see huge DPS improvements but now that I have respecced back to tower shield I think I do see a significant decrease in DPS. I assume this is the main reason people are using the buckler line.. to improve DPS with minimal, if any, loss in tanking ability. Also, where are you all distributing all your points exactly then when using the buckler line? Message Edited by notyou on 08-04-2006 12:23 AM Even though I have the buckler line, I wouldnt choose the Cutlass as Claymore reward, I think I would still pick the shield. Many weapons out there with similar damage and even though you use a buckler for the daily work, there will be moments where you need a fat tower shield. That's why my choice still is the qeynos guard. Concerning the aa build. Here is what I have and I am very happy with it: STR 4/5/8/8 WIS 4/4/8/8 Pretty sure like every MT in a raiding guild took that Build - or one almost the same Str 4/8/5/8 Wis 4/4/8/8 Here

08-05-2006, 01:36 AM	#19
Ratty31 Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 351	Switched to buckler line one day cause I was bored and I never changed back, it's so overpowered it's not even funny. Str line is a complete waste imo. Message Edited by Ratty31 on 08-04-2006 04:37 PM

08-05-2006, 05:52 AM	#20
notyou Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	STR and WIS?So you aren't using the buckler line? Buckler line is STA.I currently have 4-5-8-8 STR and 4-4-8-8 WIS.

08-05-2006, 10:06 PM	#21
Pins General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,040	TanRaistlyn wrote: Pretty sure like every MT in a raiding guild took that Build - or one almost the same Str 4/8/5/8 Wis 4/4/8/8 Here Go STA, and you'll be happy with doing more DPS, thus holding better aggro. Sure you won't avoid as much(but meh). I think a large majority of tanks that took Chel'Drak out are STA/WIS spec'd. __________________ Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Dissolution on Nektulos Calaglin, Former Illusionist/Guild Leader of Confirmed on Unrest

08-06-2006, 08:05 PM	#22
Sir_Halbarad Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 4 Bayle Court, South Qeynos Posts: 509	notyou wrote:STR and WIS?So you aren't using the buckler line? Buckler line is STA.I currently have 4-5-8-8 STR and 4-4-8-8 WIS. Oops!Mistyped Edited post above __________________ Halbaradx - Guardian Dunamis - Splitpaw Dunamis is recruiting - visit us at www.dunamis-eq2.com Open Spots: Inquisitor \| Mystic \| Fury \| Sorcerer

08-07-2006, 08:28 PM	#23
Lyrus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	Pinski wrote: TanRaistlyn wrote: Pretty sure like every MT in a raiding guild took that Build - or one almost the same Str 4/8/5/8 Wis 4/4/8/8 Here Go STA, and you'll be happy with doing more DPS, thus holding better aggro. Sure you won't avoid as much(but meh). I think a large majority of tanks that took Chel'Drak out are STA/WIS spec'd. If the wisdom line wasn't so vital, I'd rather have the +hate and critical chance from the Strength line. For any non-raid tanking guardian, that'd be what I would recommend.*In addition to the stamina line I mean. Message Edited by Lyrus-D on 08-07-2006 09:31 AM

08-07-2006, 08:51 PM	#24
Turb General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,117	Which would you build up first? STA or WIS? __________________

08-08-2006, 03:19 PM	#25
Sir_Halbarad Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: 4 Bayle Court, South Qeynos Posts: 509	Personally I did WIS 4/4/4/8 - then finished STA for final spec 4/5/8/8 and then put the last points to WIS again (4/4/8/If you never tank raids, I think sta line first may be better. __________________ Halbaradx - Guardian Dunamis - Splitpaw Dunamis is recruiting - visit us at www.dunamis-eq2.com Open Spots: Inquisitor \| Mystic \| Fury \| Sorcerer

08-08-2006, 05:39 PM	#26
Lyrus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	For tanking raids, I'd agree, I'd get unshakeable 8 before anything else.For a non-raid tanking guardian, I'd recommend this spec for maximum damage and agro; Str 4 4 8 8, Sta: 4 5 8 8

08-08-2006, 06:20 PM	#27
Anariale Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 476	I started out with Buckler, but just recently respec'd to the Agility line. Its kinda a tossup right now. No, I dont do the ST damage that I did with the buckler... but the 24% chance to hit all the mobs in front of me really helps with that AE aggro. __________________ Wyrd, 80 Paladin - ex-Ghosts of War, Permafrost Darton, 70 Guardian (was stolen) Permafrost

08-08-2006, 09:18 PM	#28
Wabit Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 802	if ya wanna have some fun try out str/agi/sta 4/4/8 __________________ Wabit- 80 guardian Trixr- 70 carpenter - Oasis (part time Warden) Thoog- 80 monk - Oasis

08-09-2006, 07:05 AM	#29
notyou Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 89	Ok, I'll try out the STA line again. I do definitely see a big drop in DMG switching from STA back to STR. This [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] thing is going to make my respecs so expensive

08-09-2006, 10:25 AM	#30
Lyrus General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 236	Wabit wrote: if ya wanna have some fun try out str/agi/sta 4/4/8 Yeah, that'd be an awesome pure DPS spec. Only thing I'd wonder is how much difference 19% dps mod makes.