Help a bad tank become good

Iwap_Evile · 06-22-2006, 09:16 AM

I'm a lvl 51 guardian but have soloed alot. So I haven't really learned how to tank very well. I can't seem to hold agro off of wizards and other casters. What skills at my lvl are best to use to make me a good tank and help me hold agro better.

Meattray · 06-22-2006, 09:55 AM

Hi

Im not a perfect tank, but i do ok.

Things that are most important to a guard to me are:

1 Taunts

2 mitigation / amour

3 damage

One of the traits of a guard to me was that we are there to keep the group safe num 1 priority, you need to keep agro on your self and keep agro from the group.

You must upgrade your taunts to increase the amount of hate they generate and you will get less resists.

Start harvesting in SS to try to get rare/treasured loam to upgrade your spells, once you harvest or buy a loam (you need alkali loam for T6 spells) do a tell in your town crafting channel and level 50-60 chat channel looking for a Alchemist to make the spell for you, you will pay 10-20g per spell to get them made.

Try to get some cobalt amour as well by harvest or from broker to upgrade your amour, you can continue to use cobalt amour in T7 till you find upgrades, to get it made look for a amourer in same fashion as finding a crafter to make spell.

So now you got better amour and taunts, back to tanking 101

Taunts and your damage = how much hate you generate with a mob, you must do more damage/taunts to keep agro on you.

First find a safe area to pull back to, pull the mobs either arrow or taunt, spamm all your taunts as you pull it, 2 x single 1 x group and do as much damage as you can spamming your taunts as soon as they come up, hit the mobs will all your big damage spell as soon as you can, just do as much damage as you can, more damage = more hate, and taunts as much as you can.

I hope that helps abit, im sure there more experenced guard that can give better advice

Sorann 70 Guard

Najena

Zabumt · 06-22-2006, 10:32 AM

Don't get too upset. Even Paladins (arguably the best at keeping aggro during a fight) Have problems when mages in their groups decide to go all out.

Learn about other classes and how they can help you keep aggro. Specifically, dirges, swashbucklers and assassins. All of them can add to your hate generation.

Excedium · 06-22-2006, 04:57 PM

Yeah its normal to lose aggro. I love tanking but I cant stand people who steal aggro cuz they can't control their hate or simply like to steal aggro. I also love wizzies who use fusion and dont tell you. This goes for any class who uses their big attacks without telling the tank to prepare for it. In these cases I don't waste my power regaining aggro unless they are going to die.

Mind you sometimes I get lazy and don't taunt enough. I also like to stay with more power then everyone else for when the [expletive haxxored by Raijiin] hits the fan. This is where guardians shine. I pop command,sphere, and wall along with reinforce(level 52) with our aoe attack.

Also remmember 1 point of damage = 1 hate. Our Combat abilities can equate hate like taunts but they are less efficient when it comes to power. So if you want some hate over time use both of your damage over times to fill in some gaps with hate. Upgrading your taunts to minimum Adept 3 is a must.

pyrotechn · 06-22-2006, 06:43 PM

New to the guard class, i bot him as my tank pet, while i play a necro (usually with a dps pet, but sometimes a tank pet). Had considerable trouble at first keeping agro off my necro's pets, but then i got the hang of it.

Always get the first hit / Use your big hate procs first. Mobs don't "peel" as soon as someone else aquires more hate. To peel a mob you have to have the most amount of hate + some percentage. So once they are on somebody else its going to require even more hate for you to to get agro back, then had you kept it in the first place.
On nameds, may consider using rescue up front. This goes back to my observation that its easier to mantain agro, than to force a "peel." And you know on nameds there's a good chance the casters may have to burn the mob down fast, especially if he's hurting you faster than you can be healed.
Use Ruin / Maim lines: These are the spells that provide slashing damage every tick; they will proc your "hold the line" agro buff. This is the biggest sorce of hate generation. You get the damage from those lines, plus the taunt procs.
Use your taunts, of course. Put them all in a row on your hot keys and smash all the entire sequence on your keyboard. Most have really fast cast times. (well thats what i do when i'm botting a guard, perhaps you can add a bit more finesse to it)
Something that was new to me while playing a mage, is u can taunt while running/pulling. A key taunt to get off is ruin/maim if you get close enough while pulling (watch for social agro though). This way your generating hate before it even gets back to the group.
Faster weapons = more hate procing. Want to balance weapon choice between damage and speed, but with a slight favor to speed.

Some wierd things i noticed, that i'm still investigating:

When a mob dies in a group encounter, something wierd happens to hate. Sometimes i would split tank, with my guard and necro, and necro would of course beat down the pet-tanked mob. But i noticed that this would often cause the mob that was being tanked by the guard to head straight to my necro, bypassing my guard and my tank pet, despite the fact i dealt negligible (if any) damage to this mob. Somethine about death/hate being transferred i think. I haven't noticed this recently as i got better at generating hate with my guard, but it seems if my tank pet generates more hate on the mob its tanking, that hate gets transferred upon death to the remaining encounter. Not 100% sure, but something fishy there (or at least was there..haven't seen it happen to recently, but then again my play style on my guard has changed).

Message Edited by pyrotechnic on 06-22-2006 07:46 AM

Huffdady · 06-22-2006, 06:59 PM

Until you get spells like Assuage/Moderate (aggro reducers you can put on someone) and hold the line / inflaming defence (aggro procer), don't feel bad that you loose aggro. Taunts / Highest damage rating weapon are the best way to hold aggro. First Taunts, get them at least Adept 3, if not master. I know masters of taunts are hard to find Tuants are your life line in holding aggro. If you have app3 or app4 or even adept1's of your tuants they are more than likely going to get resisted. Get them upgrades as soon as possible. At lvl 64 make sure you pick the Master 2 version of Protection, it hardly ever gets resisted. Also have adept 3 version of assuage and moderate avaiable when you get to that level. Aggro reducers help you keep aggro. Put them on the highest dealing person in the group. You will seem like an aggro monster because they will be able to do a lot more damage before they get aggro.When I look at a weapon, I don't care about stats. I used to actually expect to loose stats if I found the right weapon. I look at the damage rating and proc's. Higher damage rating is greater than an extra 10 str or 20 sta or 15 agi. The more constant damage the proc does the more aggro, I will take a slow/dot/debuff proc over a dd proc any day. DD (direct damage) proc's are cool and up your DPS but the mob doesn't care if you hit it for an extra 200 damage every once in a while, when the wizard is hitting it for 3-6K worth of damage. But a dot or debuff can be reapplied over and over and you get will get more aggro from every tick of a dot, rather than the occasional dd blast. Rubbermade LvL 70 GuardianFallen on the Befallen Server.

MountainFl · 06-22-2006, 09:17 PM

All of the advice given so far is very good.

As Guardians we have a reactive hate proc line. (Hold the line - Inflaming Defense) What this means is, we need to get hit for the Reactive to proc. Aviodance is the bane to this line, if you avoid the attack there is ZERO chance for the Reactive to Proc. Guardians are the leaders in mitigation, in a group situation gear yourself for the highest mitigation possible. Let the Monks and Bruisers worry about avoidance.

When pulling make sure your group knows how you are pulling a mob. Pulling with a taunt is stronger than pulling with a ranged weapon in reguards to hate. Also know when it is best to pull with a ranged weapon and when to pull with a taunt.

Make sure your group members know what, how and when to use their personal hate reducing abilities.

If you have other fighters in the group, have them turn off their Proactive hate gain abilities, turn off avoidance buffs on you the Main Tank, and not to complete HO's with the horn icon. If there is no off tank in the group, designate one and instruct them the only time to use rescue is only when you are dead. Have the other fighters use their aviodance / hate reduction buffs on the other group members.

Healers should use cures on you, 90% of healers do not use them. You can also pick up potions that you can use to cure yourself during combat, see your freindly Alchemist.

On the subject of potions, experiment with the various potions that are available. A simple damage shield can help you hold agro on mobs that you are not directly targeting.

As MT you dictate the pace of the group. Watch your power and the power of the healers in the group. If you have a "Leroy" in the group let them die a couple of times, make sure you tell the healers not to heal "Leroy" when they pull a "Leroy" - (Leroy refers to the Leyron Jenkins WoW video).

Also know what all of your abilities do, experiment with them, figure out what works best and when for you.

06-22-2006, 10:32 AM	#3
Zabumt Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 489	Don't get too upset. Even Paladins (arguably the best at keeping aggro during a fight) Have problems when mages in their groups decide to go all out. Learn about other classes and how they can help you keep aggro. Specifically, dirges, swashbucklers and assassins. All of them can add to your hate generation. __________________ Halthar 70 Dwarf Templar - Unrest Zabumtik 60 Gnome Wizard - Unrest

06-22-2006, 04:57 PM	#4
Excedium Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 57	Yeah its normal to lose aggro. I love tanking but I cant stand people who steal aggro cuz they can't control their hate or simply like to steal aggro. I also love wizzies who use fusion and dont tell you. This goes for any class who uses their big attacks without telling the tank to prepare for it. In these cases I don't waste my power regaining aggro unless they are going to die. Mind you sometimes I get lazy and don't taunt enough. I also like to stay with more power then everyone else for when the [expletive haxxored by Raijiin] hits the fan. This is where guardians shine. I pop command,sphere, and wall along with reinforce(level 52) with our aoe attack. Also remmember 1 point of damage = 1 hate. Our Combat abilities can equate hate like taunts but they are less efficient when it comes to power. So if you want some hate over time use both of your damage over times to fill in some gaps with hate. Upgrading your taunts to minimum Adept 3 is a must. __________________

06-22-2006, 06:43 PM	#5
pyrotechn Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 47	New to the guard class, i bot him as my tank pet, while i play a necro (usually with a dps pet, but sometimes a tank pet). Had considerable trouble at first keeping agro off my necro's pets, but then i got the hang of it. Always get the first hit / Use your big hate procs first. Mobs don't "peel" as soon as someone else aquires more hate. To peel a mob you have to have the most amount of hate + some percentage. So once they are on somebody else its going to require even more hate for you to to get agro back, then had you kept it in the first place. On nameds, may consider using rescue up front. This goes back to my observation that its easier to mantain agro, than to force a "peel." And you know on nameds there's a good chance the casters may have to burn the mob down fast, especially if he's hurting you faster than you can be healed. Use Ruin / Maim lines: These are the spells that provide slashing damage every tick; they will proc your "hold the line" agro buff. This is the biggest sorce of hate generation. You get the damage from those lines, plus the taunt procs. Use your taunts, of course. Put them all in a row on your hot keys and smash all the entire sequence on your keyboard. Most have really fast cast times. (well thats what i do when i'm botting a guard, perhaps you can add a bit more finesse to it) Something that was new to me while playing a mage, is u can taunt while running/pulling. A key taunt to get off is ruin/maim if you get close enough while pulling (watch for social agro though). This way your generating hate before it even gets back to the group. Faster weapons = more hate procing. Want to balance weapon choice between damage and speed, but with a slight favor to speed. Some wierd things i noticed, that i'm still investigating: When a mob dies in a group encounter, something wierd happens to hate. Sometimes i would split tank, with my guard and necro, and necro would of course beat down the pet-tanked mob. But i noticed that this would often cause the mob that was being tanked by the guard to head straight to my necro, bypassing my guard and my tank pet, despite the fact i dealt negligible (if any) damage to this mob. Somethine about death/hate being transferred i think. I haven't noticed this recently as i got better at generating hate with my guard, but it seems if my tank pet generates more hate on the mob its tanking, that hate gets transferred upon death to the remaining encounter. Not 100% sure, but something fishy there (or at least was there..haven't seen it happen to recently, but then again my play style on my guard has changed). Message Edited by pyrotechnic on 06-22-2006 07:46 AM

06-22-2006, 09:16 AM	#1
Iwap_Evile Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 8	I'm a lvl 51 guardian but have soloed alot. So I haven't really learned how to tank very well. I can't seem to hold agro off of wizards and other casters. What skills at my lvl are best to use to make me a good tank and help me hold agro better.

06-22-2006, 09:55 AM	#2
Meattray Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 108	Hi Im not a perfect tank, but i do ok. Things that are most important to a guard to me are: 1 Taunts 2 mitigation / amour 3 damage One of the traits of a guard to me was that we are there to keep the group safe num 1 priority, you need to keep agro on your self and keep agro from the group. You must upgrade your taunts to increase the amount of hate they generate and you will get less resists. Start harvesting in SS to try to get rare/treasured loam to upgrade your spells, once you harvest or buy a loam (you need alkali loam for T6 spells) do a tell in your town crafting channel and level 50-60 chat channel looking for a Alchemist to make the spell for you, you will pay 10-20g per spell to get them made. Try to get some cobalt amour as well by harvest or from broker to upgrade your amour, you can continue to use cobalt amour in T7 till you find upgrades, to get it made look for a amourer in same fashion as finding a crafter to make spell. So now you got better amour and taunts, back to tanking 101 Taunts and your damage = how much hate you generate with a mob, you must do more damage/taunts to keep agro on you. First find a safe area to pull back to, pull the mobs either arrow or taunt, spamm all your taunts as you pull it, 2 x single 1 x group and do as much damage as you can spamming your taunts as soon as they come up, hit the mobs will all your big damage spell as soon as you can, just do as much damage as you can, more damage = more hate, and taunts as much as you can. I hope that helps abit, im sure there more experenced guard that can give better advice Sorann 70 Guard Najena

06-22-2006, 06:59 PM	#6
Huffdady Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sherman Texas Posts: 8	Until you get spells like Assuage/Moderate (aggro reducers you can put on someone) and hold the line / inflaming defence (aggro procer), don't feel bad that you loose aggro. Taunts / Highest damage rating weapon are the best way to hold aggro. First Taunts, get them at least Adept 3, if not master. I know masters of taunts are hard to find Tuants are your life line in holding aggro. If you have app3 or app4 or even adept1's of your tuants they are more than likely going to get resisted. Get them upgrades as soon as possible. At lvl 64 make sure you pick the Master 2 version of Protection, it hardly ever gets resisted. Also have adept 3 version of assuage and moderate avaiable when you get to that level. Aggro reducers help you keep aggro. Put them on the highest dealing person in the group. You will seem like an aggro monster because they will be able to do a lot more damage before they get aggro.When I look at a weapon, I don't care about stats. I used to actually expect to loose stats if I found the right weapon. I look at the damage rating and proc's. Higher damage rating is greater than an extra 10 str or 20 sta or 15 agi. The more constant damage the proc does the more aggro, I will take a slow/dot/debuff proc over a dd proc any day. DD (direct damage) proc's are cool and up your DPS but the mob doesn't care if you hit it for an extra 200 damage every once in a while, when the wizard is hitting it for 3-6K worth of damage. But a dot or debuff can be reapplied over and over and you get will get more aggro from every tick of a dot, rather than the occasional dd blast. Rubbermade LvL 70 GuardianFallen on the Befallen Server.

06-22-2006, 09:17 PM	#7
MountainFl Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 14	All of the advice given so far is very good. As Guardians we have a reactive hate proc line. (Hold the line - Inflaming Defense) What this means is, we need to get hit for the Reactive to proc. Aviodance is the bane to this line, if you avoid the attack there is ZERO chance for the Reactive to Proc. Guardians are the leaders in mitigation, in a group situation gear yourself for the highest mitigation possible. Let the Monks and Bruisers worry about avoidance. When pulling make sure your group knows how you are pulling a mob. Pulling with a taunt is stronger than pulling with a ranged weapon in reguards to hate. Also know when it is best to pull with a ranged weapon and when to pull with a taunt. Make sure your group members know what, how and when to use their personal hate reducing abilities. If you have other fighters in the group, have them turn off their Proactive hate gain abilities, turn off avoidance buffs on you the Main Tank, and not to complete HO's with the horn icon. If there is no off tank in the group, designate one and instruct them the only time to use rescue is only when you are dead. Have the other fighters use their aviodance / hate reduction buffs on the other group members. Healers should use cures on you, 90% of healers do not use them. You can also pick up potions that you can use to cure yourself during combat, see your freindly Alchemist. On the subject of potions, experiment with the various potions that are available. A simple damage shield can help you hold agro on mobs that you are not directly targeting. As MT you dictate the pace of the group. Watch your power and the power of the healers in the group. If you have a "Leroy" in the group let them die a couple of times, make sure you tell the healers not to heal "Leroy" when they pull a "Leroy" - (Leroy refers to the Leyron Jenkins WoW video). Also know what all of your abilities do, experiment with them, figure out what works best and when for you.