Anyone else dissapointed with our 1 new KOS ability?

[Dedi]

(Thanks Moontayle)Obliterate (Adept 1)

The guardian's attacks that are parried, deflected, or blocked will instead break through the enemy's defenses.  Anytime the guardian parries or blocks, will return in a counterattack against an enemy for up a limited amount of counterattacks.

 

Target: self

Duration: 24 secs

 

Effects:

 

-On a successful block this spell will cast a counterattack on targets victum

--- Inflicts 71-119 melee damage on target

-On a successful parry this spell will cast a counterattack on targets victum

--- Inflicts 71-119 melee damage on target

---

I can see that it may have uses, but on a scale of 1 to 10, I give this a 2.  I haven't compared it to what many other classes are getting. But the masochist in me did check what the defensive brawler gets.Dragon Breath:Duration: 10 secondsRecast: 1 min103-126 heat damage per second on targets in area of effect instantly and every 1 secondincrease spell casting time of targets in area effect by 30I know skills aren't complete and will most likely change a bit.  I was really hoping KOS would save the game for me, but this definitely isn't what I had in mind.  I'm still hoping there are some great uses for this that I can't see.  Anyone else?

[sammythebull]

yes. Unlike some other fighters, a very small percentage of our aggro comes from damage output. I find this skill pretty much useless.

[Shizzirri]

Look on the bright side at least we're not blowing up our gear to do some kinda of stoneskin proc or something, also note zerkers get a counter attack as part of their offensive stance, we get 30 sec buff or whatever...

And don't you notice monks in movies blow fire all the time.

[Gungo]

the bruiser one is pretty bad as well. It can be good but it needs to proc more then what it does. at least your includes parry and block, bruisers only proc a 1 sec knockback or stun when they deflect. For a 20 sec buff that will happen maybe 1 time in that 20 secs if you are lucky.

[Sir_Halbarad]

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Gungo wrote:

the bruiser one is pretty bad as well. It can be good but it needs to proc more then what it does. at least your includes parry and block, bruisers only proc a 1 sec knockback or stun when they deflect. For a 20 sec buff that will happen maybe 1 time in that 20 secs if you are lucky.

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*gasp* you mean... there is one skill in the Bruiser tree that... *gasp* isn't uber?

[mastersard]

I agree, it's a crap skill.

[Crim001]

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:

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Gungo wrote:

the bruiser one is pretty bad as well. It can be good but it needs to proc more then what it does. at least your includes parry and block, bruisers only proc a 1 sec knockback or stun when they deflect. For a 20 sec buff that will happen maybe 1 time in that 20 secs if you are lucky.

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*gasp* you mean... there is one skill in the Bruiser tree that... *gasp* isn't uber?

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Haha ouch. I've made a bruiser and a monk already, so if one goes bad with any of my fighters, theres always another one to play. That is until the massive amounts of bruisers and monks causes SoE to do another balancing....

[Gungo]

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:

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Gungo wrote:

the bruiser one is pretty bad as well. It can be good but it needs to proc more then what it does. at least your includes parry and block, bruisers only proc a 1 sec knockback or stun when they deflect. For a 20 sec buff that will happen maybe 1 time in that 20 secs if you are lucky.

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*gasp* you mean... there is one skill in the Bruiser tree that... *gasp* isn't uber?

---

Naw there are a few spells that kinda suck, (fluff lines blow, teleport punch, mitigation buff that completely stuns you it does what it suppoe to but not veyr useful for a tank who needs to keep agro) but generally you are right most bruiser spells actually work as intended. Is any single spell overpowered not really. Don't hate the class because our spells actually work, use your brain and coem up w ideas to FIX your less useful abilities. bruisers do have very few extremly broken spells which make us a decent class. Guards have a few (mostly yoru offensive stance or lack thereof 80+dps over defensive stance does not make it an offensive stance), shadowknights have a few as well (poor dps 3rd worst in fighter tree and worst taunts, makes for the worst agro tank in game), and enchanters have a ton of useless spells (several lines of  power drains, immunites to half thier specialties (stuns, stifles, charms, mezzes), tons fo single target buffs that all cost concentration to use, and weaker dps then all casters and scouts. At least bards have decent buffs and add alto of dps to the group.) So yeah alot of whining and finger pointing on the gaurd boards for a class thats no where near the worst class in game. Sadly i think most people who played enchanters gave up playing a long time ago. They had maybe 1 month of their class being useful before they got nerfed to oblivion.

[Crim001]

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Gungo wrote:

Naw there are a few spells that kinda suck, (fluff lines blow, teleport punch, mitigation buff that completely stuns you it does what it suppoe to but not veyr useful for a tank who needs to keep agro) but generally you are right most bruiser spells actually work as intended. Is any single spell overpowered not really. Don't hate the class because our spells actually work, use your brain and coem up w ideas to FIX your less useful abilities. bruisers do have very few extremly broken spells which make us a decent class. Guards have a few (mostly yoru offensive stance or lack thereof 80+dps over defensive stance does not make it an offensive stance), shadowknights have a few as well (poor dps 3rd worst in fighter tree and worst taunts, makes for the worst agro tank in game), and enchanters have a ton of useless spells (several lines of  power drains, immunites to half thier specialties (stuns, stifles, charms, mezzes), tons fo single target buffs that all cost concentration to use, and weaker dps then all casters and scouts. At least bards have decent buffs and add alto of dps to the group.) So yeah alot of whining and finger pointing on the gaurd boards for a class thats no where near the worst class in game. Sadly i think most people who played enchanters gave up playing a long time ago. They had maybe 1 month of their class being useful before they got nerfed to oblivion.

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Wasn't it Erasmus who wrote, "Where there's a troll, there's fire."? You just did the thing that many monks, bruisers and other classes have accused us of doing-made comparisons with another class tree. As for bruisers having broken spells, only reason you don't have as many broken spells as others is because a certain someone plays a bruiser as well....

BTW, check the threads, we've had parses done, and hundreds of posts to attempt to fix our abilities that could use a boost.

[Gungo]

Actually i came up with many ideas myself to help the guard class. And if you were abel to comprehend the post i wrote there was no comparison between classes abilites. It was a list of several classes w "broken" abilites. I never once in that post compared an enchanter to a guard or a shadowknight to bruiser etc. Learn to read and comprehend becuase i was not trolling. Which in fact you are doing by posting a useless and badgering flame targeting a specific poster and not the relavant issue which is the topic of the thread.

 

Edit: btw parses are not fixes to a weak ability. Its a whine w biased stats. Several devs have stated outsourced parsers are in herently flawed, outdated and do not acurately reflect overall class abilites. Try actually lisiting each ability and its negatives and postives while at the same time postign suggestions which include ideas to make the ability better. That is what a constructive poster would do. Or you can keep posting your drivel that has no relevance other then to derail threads and attack constructive posters.

Edit: actually Crim001 the lead developer (not moorgard) plays a class that is not to hot at the moment either.

Message Edited by Gungo on 02-10-200605:33 PM

[Sir_Halbarad]

No worries, Gungo, just wanted to tease you Actually, I don't feel "broken" myself. But that is because I have a role (Guild MT) which I can fill out perfectly. And I definitely don't "hate" brawlers in general or bruisers in particular But a class who can fear, mezz, stun, fd, heal and do uber dps (for a fighter) combined with very good tanking coming here to post that their lvl 65 spell sucks "as well" can expect a cynical comment, no? Because all the nice things you have make you a great grp tank, a viable soloer and an on-par raid tank.Compare that to what we have We are a "slightly above the rest raid tank".All those who aren't raid tanking feel shafted - with good reason.Btw, I don't ask for bruiser, monk or brawler nerf - I just want something that makes Guards a wanted class.But enough of the name calling, back to the topic Obliterate is underpowered at the moment. I would like to see it as a maintained buff, costing 1 concentration, maybe with lower damage.It would make using a shield useful, it would add a bit dps to our defensive stance and would help our semi-broken HtL in generating a bit dps aggro.

[Gungo]

Actually i see no problems keeping it as a maintained buff, maybe tweak the dam a bit maybe not depending on how much it procs and the overall dps it gives. Guards need a dps boost and this will help soloing and tanking agro (especially vs multi mobs), but sadly does not help the gaurds abiltiy to stack in raids or groups it still is a form of indirect dps that requires you to tank. But its a start and can be a very good buff.

 

edit maybe one day we cna have enuff concentration buffs so that we have to *gasp* make a choice again.

Message Edited by Gungo on 02-10-200605:30 PM

[Crim001]

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Gungo wrote:

Edit: btw parses are not fixes to a weak ability. Its a whine w biased stats. Several devs have stated outsourced parsers are in herently flawed, outdated and do not acurately reflect overall class abilites. Try actually lisiting each ability and its negatives and postives while at the same time postign suggestions which include ideas to make the ability better. That is what a constructive poster would do. Or you can keep posting your drivel that has no relevance other then to derail threads and attack constructive posters.

Hmmm.....Perhaps it would be better for me to say parses help to point out weakened skills instead of you nitpicking and misinterpreting as well.....I do find it amazing how you would judge an entire persons outlook on a few posts though.

Edit: actually Crim001 the lead developer (not moorgard) plays a class that is not to hot at the moment either.

I know this, BG plays a bruiser. Your making assumptions that are wrong I'm afraid .

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[Crim001]

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:Obliterate is underpowered at the moment. I would like to see it as a maintained buff, costing 1 concentration, maybe with lower damage.It would make using a shield useful, it would add a bit dps to our defensive stance and would help our semi-broken HtL in generating a bit dps aggro.

---

As of now, I use a shield when soloing, so it would be a nice perk if I were to get it . Could see others seeing this as overpowered since it turns every block/parry into a damage hit, so maybe making it a 50%+ chance to do damage or something like that along with a maintained buff. Only real use I see for it now is say, obliterate, reinforcement, then AoE taunt or something like that....

[jinxedup]

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:No worries, Gungo, just wanted to tease you Actually, I don't feel "broken" myself. But that is because I have a role (Guild MT) which I can fill out perfectly. And I definitely don't "hate" brawlers in general or bruisers in particular But a class who can fear, mezz, stun, fd, heal and do uber dps (for a fighter) combined with very good tanking coming here to post that their lvl 65 spell sucks "as well" can expect a cynical comment, no? Because all the nice things you have make you a great grp tank, a viable soloer and an on-par raid tank.Compare that to what we have We are a "slightly above the rest raid tank".

Thats just pathetic-- no one class should be better at the end game than all other classes-- what other reason is there to play a tank at the endgame if you arent a guardian?-- just play a pure dps class or healer-- all other tanks need to be brought up defensively with guards or guards need to be NERFED in this respect-- give them invis or some other crap that really doesnt matter like FD -- but they DO NOT DESERVE TO BE THE MT IN RAIDS-- PERIOD.All those who aren't raid tanking feel shafted - with good reason.Btw, I don't ask for bruiser, monk or brawler nerf - I just want something that makes Guards a wanted class.But enough of the name calling, back to the topic Obliterate is underpowered at the moment. I would like to see it as a maintained buff, costing 1 concentration, maybe with lower damage.It would make using a shield useful, it would add a bit dps to our defensive stance and would help our semi-broken HtL in generating a bit dps aggro.

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[Sir_Halbarad]

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Crim001 wrote:

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:Obliterate is underpowered at the moment. I would like to see it as a maintained buff, costing 1 concentration, maybe with lower damage.It would make using a shield useful, it would add a bit dps to our defensive stance and would help our semi-broken HtL in generating a bit dps aggro.

---

As of now, I use a shield when soloing, so it would be a nice perk if I were to get it . Could see others seeing this as overpowered since it turns every block/parry into a damage hit, so maybe making it a 50%+ chance to do damage or something like that along with a maintained buff. Only real use I see for it now is say, obliterate, reinforcement, then AoE taunt or something like that....

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Turning every block/parry into a damage hit is exactly what guards need.Since our HtL doesn't work properly (wards, blocks, parries, ripostes, misses all hinder HtL procs) we need another tool to generate aggro and Obliterate could do this.If they fix HtL - can proc on attacker's attack, not on attacker's hit - we need another defensive (passive) tool to generate aggro. We have the lowest fighter dps which will become worse in KoS with Crits... Say a Ranger/Wizard/Brigand does 100 now, a Guardian does 40 (just for comparison)...DPS classes go for dps increases (naturally) and with 50 AA spent they get a 20% boost... which is nice and viable.Tanks go for the tanking AA's and some hate maybe - giving Guards a 10% aggro boost.Now our dps classes have 120 (100+20%) while our guard has only a 10% hate increase...Combined with the low dps... and the critical hits introduced in DoF, we'll see some hard times in exp grps.

[Shizzirri]

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jinxedup wrote:

 

Thats just pathetic-- no one class should be better at the end game than all other classes-- what other reason is there to play a tank at the endgame if you arent a guardian?-- just play a pure dps class or healer-- all other tanks need to be brought up defensively with guards or guards need to be NERFED in this respect-- give them invis or some other crap that really doesnt matter like FD -- but they DO NOT DESERVE TO BE THE MT IN RAIDS-- PERIOD.

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Oh yeah this is just brilliant logic here, ok so let's say they nerf guardians, again and make all other fighters brought up defensively to match guards, now this makes total sense considering guardians are DEFENSIVE fighters.  And even better I'd say only about 10% of all guardians are raid tanks for a guild, what about the other 90%?  If guardians don't deserve to be main tanks in raids then who does, swashbucklers, coercers, or hey how about wardens?  I hope your being scarcastic and I'm wasting my time, but I doubt that. 

Anyway from what I can tell from others their level 65 spells are jokes also so us guardians shouldn't really feel that shafted, at least not yet.

[JNewby]

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Dedite wrote:

(Thanks Moontayle)Obliterate (Adept 1)

The guardian's attacks that are parried, deflected, or blocked will instead break through the enemy's defenses.  Anytime the guardian parries or blocks, will return in a counterattack against an enemy for up a limited amount of counterattacks.

 

Target: self

Duration: 24 secs

 

Effects:

 

-On a successful block this spell will cast a counterattack on targets victum

--- Inflicts 71-119 melee damage on target

-On a successful parry this spell will cast a counterattack on targets victum

--- Inflicts 71-119 melee damage on target

---

I can see that it may have uses, but on a scale of 1 to 10, I give this a 2.  I haven't compared it to what many other classes are getting. But the masochist in me did check what the defensive brawler gets.Dragon Breath:Duration: 10 secondsRecast: 1 min103-126 heat damage per second on targets in area of effect instantly and every 1 secondincrease spell casting time of targets in area effect by 30I know skills aren't complete and will most likely change a bit.  I was really hoping KOS would save the game for me, but this definitely isn't what I had in mind.  I'm still hoping there are some great uses for this that I can't see.  Anyone else?

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this spell belongs to a zerker... not a guardian and even so it doesnt really seem like it will do much dmg... and again it doesnt matter cause dmg is not what I want to waste my mana on when tanking.... the only thing it has going for it is at least its unique even though seemingly compleely useless

 

[Crim001]

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:

Turning every block/parry into a damage hit is exactly what guards need.Since our HtL doesn't work properly (wards, blocks, parries, ripostes, misses all hinder HtL procs) we need another tool to generate aggro and Obliterate could do this.

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I said as a maintained buff however. So it would pretty much be a damage shield that procs around 30% of the time. So perhaps even if it were maintained it should stay at 100%....I dunno, eventually completely up to SoE considering the effect we've had on them so far.

[Rah]

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Edit: btw parses are not fixes to a weak ability. Its a whine w biased stats. Several devs have stated outsourced parsers are in herently flawed, outdated and do not acurately reflect overall class abilites. Try actually lisiting each ability and its negatives and postives while at the same time postign suggestions which include ideas to make the ability better. That is what a constructive poster would do. Or you can keep posting your drivel that has no relevance other then to derail threads and attack constructive posters.

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Again can we agree on a Parser that is considered close to the mark.

As a side note someone want to explain "ToolTips" ?

 

Rahge

 

[Gungo]

You can't choose a parser that is close to the mark because parsers do not accurately reflect classes. Sure there a very updated parsers that reflect procs to the appropriate class, but few people actually set up thier parser to place the proc on the appropriate person. For example a fury supplies a decent ds but that dps is generally applied to the tank and not the fury. Furthermore debuffs actually increase dps by making the mob get hit harder. parsers do not reflect this. Instead parsers will include buffs but not debuffs appropriately.  A well placed bard is insane Dps in raids but you will never find a parser to show that. Fury are awesome in dps groups, but what parser ever shows that? Brigands are prolly one of the best classes for dps in a raid to have due to thier debuffs and ability to stand inside AoE's, but a parser will never show that. On paper assasins look like they are by far the best Dps class in game, but in game rangers do more damage because of applied procs. Parsers are biased programs. To accurately reflect DPS a class gives in a group you will need to assign every proc, ds, buff, and debuff to the appropriate class. Take a large sample of each class to reduce the effect of armour, playstyle, positioning and role. And compare the totals. None of which a parser can accurately do. SoE has claimed they can read data across any given server and see the actual totals which is a large enuff data base to mroe accurately reflect DPS. 

 

Hehe i can't explain tooltips .. it changes daily, basically its a quick reference for the in game UI. And i still learn thing about it all the time. The in game ui is one of the better ones i have seen in a game atm. Extremely customizable and efficient imho. Well beyond the old eq1 style ui.

Message Edited by Gungo on 02-13-200609:28 AM

[Aar]

So...correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall reading that one of the KoS AA's is a parry/block everything short term (~20s) buff.  So, stack the 65 spell with the ability, and its autoriposte...could be useful for establishing agro on a large encounter, as well as doing decent dps.

[Rah]

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Gungo wrote:

You can't choose a parser that is close to the mark because parsers do not accurately reflect classes. Sure there a very updated parsers that reflect procs to the appropriate class, but few people actually set up thier parser to place the proc on the appropriate person. For example a fury supplies a decent ds but that dps is generally applied to the tank and not the fury. Furthermore debuffs actually increase dps by making the mob get hit harder. parsers do not reflect this. Instead parsers will include buffs but not debuffs appropriately.  A well placed bard is insane Dps in raids but you will never find a parser to show that. Fury are awesome in dps groups, but what parser ever shows that? Brigands are prolly one of the best classes for dps in a raid to have due to thier debuffs and ability to stand inside AoE's, but a parser will never show that. On paper assasins look like they are by far the best Dps class in game, but in game rangers do more damage because of applied procs. Parsers are biased programs. To accurately reflect DPS a class gives in a group you will need to assign every proc, ds, buff, and debuff to the appropriate class. Take a large sample of each class to reduce the effect of armour, playstyle, positioning and role. And compare the totals. None of which a parser can accurately do. SoE has claimed they can read data across any given server and see the actual totals which is a large enuff data base to mroe accurately reflect DPS. 

 

Hehe i can't explain tooltips .. it changes daily, basically its a quick reference for the in game UI. And i still learn thing about it all the time. The in game ui is one of the better ones i have seen in a game atm. Extremely customizable and efficient imho. Well beyond the old eq1 style ui.

Message Edited by Gungo on 02-13-200609:28 AM

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I think what your saying is really just a error that is introduced by the operator of the parsing program (whichever he/she uses). I will say that in defense of the few post that have been placed here that the parsing was in a controlled instance, solo vs mellee mob of equal level with self buffs only. Even the equipment was posted. Given its a class pure approach but one that was selected for that purpose in mind. To add the buffs in it takes that fury to not buff on one fight run of X time, then Buff the tank on the second parse run to capture the difference. Same method with debuffs. I am sure you are fully aware of the mechanics of this and are discussing this from a raid prespective, but until all the variables are isolated and understood you cant very well expect to understand the larger picture.

The parsing I ahve read here was in the context of how much damage a Guardian can do. Its purpose was to demonstrate that we can not solo effectively as other fighter archetypes.

As far as SOE being able to gather the data, of all of us here I would hope they can do that. The only problem is  no one is willing to explain why in controlled parsing the gap is so large. So you see what we are capable of demonstrating until an answer is forthcoming......or Gaige talks to Scott and Scott tells (place name here) to make a generalized statement that is supported by both SOE abacis operators and Fanbois abroad. In the meantime the rest of us remain baffled. 

Okay that wasnt neccesary but it sure felt good!

 

Rahge

 

[Rah]

Noah wrote

 

The last skill on the AGI line is 100% parry for 12 seconds.  This is on a 10 min recast timer.  It has saved my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] a TON in beta.  I might just take the leap and grab it even thou it cost a ton of points.

On a side note,  with the AGI dodge skill comes a small DPS boon.  If you use your lvl 65 Obliterate skill (do 250 damage vs target everytime you parry or block for 30 seconds) and/or get the final AA on the wisdom line (Champions strike - do 250 damage ifyou parry/ dodge)...  When you pull that large group of mobs, you will have 12 seconds of 500+ damage shield.  Could be cool.... just thinking out loud really.

 

Its going defensive with a twist!

Anyone for the sewer trials?

 

Rahge

[Gungo]

Yeah i am sure eventually a few classes wil come out w combo's that really goes out of bounds of what soe wanted the original design to be. The hope is that they put enuff controls in to limit these scenarios instead of backpeddling and nerfing skills later on. If the combo you suggest works i actually see no problem with it atm. its on a 10min timer and does decent dps but only if u get hit. Now to see what actually happens in game is another story.

 

btw rahge about the parser debate we were having i am not against guards having better dps i actually think guards need better dps. In fact i like the new skills that are coming in the form of AA's that counter for extra atks etc. And i think if they tweak it enuff it should be a maintained conc buff. But i also think a guard needs an increased offensive stance for raid/group stackability and for added solo effciency. Not to mention the fact i think the guard offensive stance is effectivly broken from an offensive vs defensive perspective.  They should even tweak protections skills to do less overall damage 90-99%. Overall i think the devs are finally forming an idea on what to do with most classes/raids/items. It has taken a while but it does seem to be looking better. I still feel bad for enchanters though everything they should have gotten it seems has gone to other classes. Spell haste, spell slow, stuns/stifles (that work on epics), power drain that works if any class needs help badly its them. but to reiterate since i tend to trial off

1)increase gaurd offensive stance

2)make the counterstrike AA passive/maintained

3)take another pass on the usefulness of protection skills in group

4) reevalute [Removed for Content] you want from enchanters in raids

[JNewby]

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Gungo wrote:

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:

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Gungo wrote:

the bruiser one is pretty bad as well. It can be good but it needs to proc more then what it does. at least your includes parry and block, bruisers only proc a 1 sec knockback or stun when they deflect. For a 20 sec buff that will happen maybe 1 time in that 20 secs if you are lucky.

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*gasp* you mean... there is one skill in the Bruiser tree that... *gasp* isn't uber?

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Naw there are a few spells that kinda suck, (fluff lines blow, teleport punch, mitigation buff that completely stuns you it does what it suppoe to but not veyr useful for a tank who needs to keep agro) but generally you are right most bruiser spells actually work as intended. Is any single spell overpowered not really. Don't hate the class because our spells actually work, use your brain and coem up w ideas to FIX your less useful abilities. bruisers do have very few extremly broken spells which make us a decent class. Guards have a few (mostly yoru offensive stance or lack thereof 80+dps over defensive stance does not make it an offensive stance), shadowknights have a few as well (poor dps 3rd worst in fighter tree and worst taunts, makes for the worst agro tank in game), and enchanters have a ton of useless spells (several lines of  power drains, immunites to half thier specialties (stuns, stifles, charms, mezzes), tons fo single target buffs that all cost concentration to use, and weaker dps then all casters and scouts. At least bards have decent buffs and add alto of dps to the group.) So yeah alot of whining and finger pointing on the gaurd boards for a class thats no where near the worst class in game. Sadly i think most people who played enchanters gave up playing a long time ago. They had maybe 1 month of their class being useful before they got nerfed to oblivion.

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yeah our offensive stance stinks but who cares... our who protection line stinks and I think that should be replaced Not "fixed"

also our defensive stance shoudl give better stats then other classes do... the cut and paste defensive stances are kinda stupid.. why not jsut give all fighters a natural increase or just make the mobs hit less hard..

 

[JNewby]

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jinxedup wrote:

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Sir_Halbarad wrote:No worries, Gungo, just wanted to tease you Actually, I don't feel "broken" myself. But that is because I have a role (Guild MT) which I can fill out perfectly. And I definitely don't "hate" brawlers in general or bruisers in particular But a class who can fear, mezz, stun, fd, heal and do uber dps (for a fighter) combined with very good tanking coming here to post that their lvl 65 spell sucks "as well" can expect a cynical comment, no? Because all the nice things you have make you a great grp tank, a viable soloer and an on-par raid tank.Compare that to what we have We are a "slightly above the rest raid tank".

Thats just pathetic-- no one class should be better at the end game than all other classes-- what other reason is there to play a tank at the endgame if you arent a guardian?-- just play a pure dps class or healer-- all other tanks need to be brought up defensively with guards or guards need to be NERFED in this respect-- give them invis or some other crap that really doesnt matter like FD -- but they DO NOT DESERVE TO BE THE MT IN RAIDS-- PERIOD.All those who aren't raid tanking feel shafted - with good reason.Btw, I don't ask for bruiser, monk or brawler nerf - I just want something that makes Guards a wanted class.But enough of the name calling, back to the topic Obliterate is underpowered at the moment. I would like to see it as a maintained buff, costing 1 concentration, maybe with lower damage.It would make using a shield useful, it would add a bit dps to our defensive stance and would help our semi-broken HtL in generating a bit dps aggro.

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hrm someone is bitter.. thats the game guards are best tanks with worst dps and no utility.. used to be mroe so its less that way now which is why guards are upset...

besides ther ca be only 1 raid mt.. so I dont know what you are upset about anyway.. given about 1-5 maybe raid guilds per server that makes about what 25-60? raid MTs game wide.. imagine splitting that over 6 different classes... that means about 10 of each class woudl be allowed to raid... how fun is that?

 

[JNewby]

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Gungo wrote:

Yeah i am sure eventually a few classes wil come out w combo's that really goes out of bounds of what soe wanted the original design to be. The hope is that they put enuff controls in to limit these scenarios instead of backpeddling and nerfing skills later on. If the combo you suggest works i actually see no problem with it atm. its on a 10min timer and does decent dps but only if u get hit. Now to see what actually happens in game is another story.

 

btw rahge about the parser debate we were having i am not against guards having better dps i actually think guards need better dps. In fact i like the new skills that are coming in the form of AA's that counter for extra atks etc. And i think if they tweak it enuff it should be a maintained conc buff. But i also think a guard needs an increased offensive stance for raid/group stackability and for added solo effciency. Not to mention the fact i think the guard offensive stance is effectivly broken from an offensive vs defensive perspective.  They should even tweak protections skills to do less overall damage 90-99%. Overall i think the devs are finally forming an idea on what to do with most classes/raids/items. It has taken a while but it does seem to be looking better. I still feel bad for enchanters though everything they should have gotten it seems has gone to other classes. Spell haste, spell slow, stuns/stifles (that work on epics), power drain that works if any class needs help badly its them. but to reiterate since i tend to trial off

1)increase gaurd offensive stance

2)make the counterstrike AA passive/maintained

3)take another pass on the usefulness of protection skills in group

4) reevalute [Removed for Content] you want from enchanters in raids

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wow for a sec I thoguht that was gaige posting and I coudnt belive how positvie he was.. anyway... while he offensive stuff may be broken... and they do have that str AA any serious raid guard will not bother with any of those AA's cept for the hate increase if they decide to go that route which will ruin their defensive AA's  also the proteciton lines are just dumb and need to be thrown out.. only useful one is the group dmg soak proc.. which I suppose would be good enoguh except when those [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] aoes go off on raids and kill me

 

[Gaige]

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JNewby wrote:

besides ther ca be only 1 raid mt

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Nice strat.  I want to see one raid MT do Pedestal of Sky.

At any rate, there is at least one contested encounter I've heard of in KoS that requires 3 tanks... and they can't all be guardians either

[x0rtrun]

Lemme see... a guardian... a beserker... and a pallidin? :smileytongue:It's good to see that Norrath is an equal opportunity employer. There's never been a problem that an artificial quota system couldn't fix.

Message Edited by x0rtrunks on 02-20-200603:41 PM