Any update on when Guardians are going to get addressed?

Wasuna · 12-28-2005, 11:18 PM

I'd be more than happy to go to the test server and help test it if needed. I'd just like to hear from the somebody official on why you killed one of your 24 classes? I tank equal to my other 5 fighter brothers but I have NOTHING else besides that. When are you going to fix that?

Mrhan · 12-28-2005, 11:33 PM

99% of all raids use guardians as mt, so stop your whining please...

KBern · 12-28-2005, 11:56 PM

Wasuna wrote:

I'd be more than happy to go to the test server and help test it if needed. I'd just like to hear from the somebody official on why you killed one of your 24 classes? I tank equal to my other 5 fighter brothers but I have NOTHING else besides that. When are you going to fix that?

What exactly are you looking for? A mythical revamp or do you have some specific requests.

Specifics usually help get your point across rather then being vague.

JuJut · 12-29-2005, 12:05 AM

Mrhanky wrote:
99% of all raids use guardians as mt, so stop your whining please...

Or at least confine it to one thread instead of spamming this forum. This thread is only a few lines down why did you need another one?

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=39424

Wasuna · 12-29-2005, 02:12 AM

Guardians tanking ability is equal to all other fighters.

Guardian DPS is about 1/2 the average fighter DPS.

Guardian Utility is flawed in that we actually increase the overall damage a group takes by 20% or more when we guard others.

Equal tanking, very low DPS and unuseable utility = NOT EQUAL Fighter

As for posting another thread, the other one was derailed by a Bezerkers and since a Moderator didn't lock this thread I didn't break any rules. That means when this thread gets to far down I'll post another thread asking when Guardians are going to get fixed again until the Developers answer or the Moderators stop it.

Wasuna · 12-29-2005, 02:15 AM

Mrhanky wrote:
99% of all raids use guardians as mt, so stop your whining please...

Even the Raid MT's in the Guardian forum agree that Brawlers make just as good raid tanks but that it's very difficult to outfit a brawler in good stated fabled and that most guilds are just used to a Guardian MT. Maybe if you posted something useful to dispute what I say I'd "stop my whining".

Wasuna · 12-29-2005, 02:22 AM

KBern wrote:

Wasuna wrote:

I'd be more than happy to go to the test server and help test it if needed. I'd just like to hear from the somebody official on why you killed one of your 24 classes? I tank equal to my other 5 fighter brothers but I have NOTHING else besides that. When are you going to fix that?

What exactly are you looking for? A mythical revamp or do you have some specific requests.

Specifics usually help get your point across rather then being vague.

The Guardian forum has about 15,000 posts on this topic. The Developers and Moderators do not go to that forum anymore after the infamous Unsung Hero comment and the like. There has not been a Moderator or Developer post in around 4 weeks on the most active class forum by around 4,000 posts. That's why these posts are here now.

KBern · 12-29-2005, 02:42 AM

Trust me, they have seen those threads.

Now if they agree with them, and are addressing them are entirely different issues.

Starting new threads on the topic with no information won't make them address them any faster either.

Wasuna · 12-29-2005, 02:55 AM

KBern wrote:

Trust me, they have seen those threads.

Now if they agree with them, and are addressing them are entirely different issues.

Starting new threads on the topic with no information won't make them address them any faster either.

Well then. What do you suggest then to get some form of reply? We only have so many options here now don't we?

JuJut · 12-29-2005, 03:15 AM

Wasuna wrote:

As for posting another thread, the other one was derailed by a Bezerkers and since a Moderator didn't lock this thread I didn't break any rules. That means when this thread gets to far down I'll post another thread asking when Guardians are going to get fixed again until the Developers answer or the Moderators stop it.

Fair enough. I'll do my part and report every spam thread you create and then move on. We'll leave it up to the moderators.

I'm adding a TOS blurb from the boycott thread. Seems pretty clear that your violating the very first bullet but as you said we'll let the mods decide, I'll just do the reporting.

Furthermore, you may NOT:

Make multiple posts on the same subject for the purpose of getting attention paid to your issue.
Post comments in threads for the purpose of drawing attention to another thread on a different subject.
"Bump" or “/sign” threads.
Cross-post the same topic to multiple forums or the same message to multiple threads.
Make replies to posts that do not pertain to or are irrelevant to the original topic, such as: In before the Lock, "first," or posting messages to reserve a reply spot with the intention of posting to it later.
Troll the forums. "Trolling" is defined as: Posting with the intent of stirring up trouble or to incite disruption. An example of trolling would be posting to a thread without the intent to provide constructive suggestions or comments and instead making disruptive comments.
Post topics addressed directly to another player. The Official EverQuest II forums have a private messaging system for conversations between two players. If you want to contact someone directly, use the private messaging system.
Use the official forums to debate private issues. The official forums are for all EverQuest II players. If you have an issue with other players or groups, deal with it outside of the public forums in a private space.
Solicit for guild membership on the general discussion boards. Please use the forums that were set up for this purpose or head over to the server-specific forums.
Use the official forums as a staging ground for creating general unrest within the game or forums, such as sit-ins, polls, petitions, etc.
Post exploits, cheats, hacks, or links to websites or domains that contain such material. If you wish to make the team aware of these issues, please send us a private message.
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Advertise websites with content that violates these rules, the EverQuest II EULA, or the Station Terms of Service.
Advertise products or websites that are not related to EverQuest II orSony Online Entertainment products.
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All of these rules apply to the forums as well as to the private message system.

Message Edited by JuJutsu on 12-28-2005 02:19 PM

Wasuna · 12-29-2005, 03:33 AM

My opinion is different than yours. In the end neither of our opinions matter, only the Moderators matter.

I do have to comment how I think it's pretty symbolic that a brawler class (assuming based on your martial arts based forum name) is so adament about me asking for an update from the Developers/Moderators on Guardians.

KBern · 12-29-2005, 03:46 AM

I'm not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but I went through this with necros. We sucked royally pre-patch and had many issues. We had a few people continuously post details and parses on our forums over and over on the same threads.

We thought nothing was going to happen, and LU 13 came and we had new life. You can post complaints all day but it wont move the SOE mountain.

Just keep posting on your board threads or a consolidated thread and you will probably get much mroe attention that many upset guardians making posts like the original one you made in this thread.

I hope they address you guys before the next expansion, but knowing SOE, nothing will make them move any faster. Unless of course something is overpowered then they seem to find the time to fix it right away.

Good luck.

JuJut · 12-29-2005, 04:03 AM

Wasuna wrote:

My opinion is different than yours. In the end neither of our opinions matter, only the Moderators matter.

I do have to comment how I think it's pretty symbolic that a brawler class (assuming based on your martial arts based forum name) is so adament about me asking for an update from the Developers/Moderators on Guardians.

I'm only adamant about spamming the forum. I've given up on pointing out that this particular forum is supposed to be about material currently in testing; they should just rename it General Complaints and be done with it. I don't care for anyone blatantly spamming the forum, regardless of their favorite class. It would be fairly easy put in comments, suggestions, et cetera so that every thread wasn't spam but apparently you would prefer to be petulant and spam demands that you get a personal reply from a developer. It's your call but I'm no more sympathetic than I was when my kids would scream and kick their heels on the floor when they didn't get their way. But I agree with you, only the moderators matter. If I see spam, I'll report it and they can decide.

Wasuna · 12-29-2005, 04:14 AM

If the Moderators didn't like how this forum was going then they would deal with that also. The Guardian forum has had many threads with Moderator encouraging replies to them and nothing has been done to fix the class. Therefore people get frustrated and start branching out such as this. Like said, in the end I just assume your one of those parents that won't talk to their kids before they assume what they ask for is wrong and won't allow any discussion that doesn't pertain to your own personal wants and needs.

Guardians are broken. All Guardians want some kind of indication from SOE how they are going to fix it. I just so happen to be the one that came here to add more to the question and now I'm the one that has to deal witha monk not liking my request for an update.

JuJut · 12-29-2005, 08:59 PM

Wasuna wrote:

Like said, in the end I just assume your one of those parents that won't talk to their kids before they assume what they ask for is wrong and won't allow any discussion that doesn't pertain to your own personal wants and needs.

:smileyvery-happy:

infernus006 · 12-30-2005, 02:43 AM

"Guardians tanking ability is equal to all other fighters." Nice try at a cop-out Was. You never did answer my question about how your tanking ability is "equal" to other fighters when you do in fact still have the most HP, the most mitigation, the most avoidance, and the most taunts of all the fighter classes in the game. I know you think you're taunts are useless (which is bullcrap) but are also trying to say that HP, mitigation, and avoidance don't do a thing for you either? Well if that's true then I would like to know what you think does really matter. "Guardian DPS is about 1/2 the average fighter DPS." Yeah well like I said that might have something to do with the fact that you get more of everything else that really matters in tanking than any other fighter. You can't realistically expect them to make it so that you have the most defensive capabilities and equal DPS with the rest of the fighter classes at the same time. Honestly, how is that fair? This is just ridiculous. You think that you are the only fighter class in the game that got any nerfs in the revamp and you refuse to listen to the truth, that we all got nerfed in one way or another. Just listen...I'm not trying to say that you don't have any problems that need to be fixed. We all do. But you really need to understand something...the only reason that Berserkers are equal to Guardians at tanking right now is because of the fact that we have more DPS than you. A lot more. Because like I said you get more of everything else. So it IS balanced. You just seem to keep forgetting all about that. Or maybe you just don't care. The fact is I really don't think you're quite as bad off as you want people to believe. I think the real problem here is that you just don't like the idea of any other tank in the game being able to hold a candle to your own tanking ability. Many of you guys still seem to insist on being the top tank in the game and the #1 choice for MT in all raids and groups all the time, no questions asked. It's like you just can't stand the idea of maybe having to assist another tank sometimes. Well like I said you better just get yourself out of that mentality or you will never be happy with your class again. That was the whole point of the combat revamp that came with LU13. That is the whole reason why other types of tanks exist in the game besides Guardians. So that there is a choice of different tanking styles and not just one uber tank class that is truely better than all the others making it totally useless to play any of the other classes that are available to do the same job. Just remember that we are all having problems right now. And being selfish isn't going to help the situation. We need to work together. But no, you don't want to cooperate with any of the other tanking classes to try and get our problems fixed, you only want your own problems fixed while leaving the rest of us gimped just so you can be overpowered again.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-29-2005 04:47 PM

Wasuna · 12-30-2005, 04:39 AM

infernus006 wrote:

"Guardians tanking ability is equal to all other fighters."

Nice try at a cop-out Was. You never did answer my question about how your tanking ability is "equal" to other fighters when you do in fact still have the most HP, the most mitigation, the most avoidance, and the most taunts of all the fighter classes in the game. I know you think you're taunts are useless (which is bullcrap) but are also trying to say that HP, mitigation, and avoidance don't do a thing for you either? Well if that's true then I would like to know what you think does really matter.

Cop-out? I don't think so. Like I said in the other thread, Guardians wear the exact same armor, exact same jewelery, exact same shields and can use the exact same weapons as Bezerkers. It's not my fault that I realized a long time ago that I will never compare in DPS and selected everything I wear based on AC and HP and totally ignore strength and agility. Guardian mitigation is NOT higher than any other plate class, Guardian Avoidance is NOT higher than any other plate class. If you want to talk about advantages then why don't you go find the Moorgaurd post that actually states that avoidance tanks get higher percentages of avoidance to overbalance them to help make up for the negative perception that avoidance tanks have.

SOE has stated that all fighters now tank equally well. You can agrue with them if you think you can. To be honest, I think Guardians tank worse that avoidance tanks and I showed numbers for this but it's just accepted by everybody now that all fighters tank equally. Provide numbers. I have and you can go find them.

Now I will say that I can buff my HP by about 500-600 (400-500 of those are group HP's so everybody gets it). How does that help me when it takes me twice as long to kill something solo while it beats on me? How does that help when another fighter as a tank (other than a Guardian) in a group can kill something 10-20% faster in a group becasue they increase the group DPS by 10-20% over a Guardian as a tank. How does me having a group HP buff help when the tank is the only one suppose to be getting hit? I'd give my HP buff up for a group haste or DPS buff in a HEARTBEAT.

"Guardian DPS is about 1/2 the average fighter DPS."

Yeah well like I said that might have something to do with the fact that you get more of everything else that really matters in tanking than any other fighter. You can't realistically expect them to make it so that you have the most defensive capabilities and equal DPS with the rest of the fighter classes at the same time. Honestly, how is that fair?

This is just ridiculous. You think that you are the only fighter class in the game that got any nerfs in the revamp and you refuse to listen to the truth, that we all got nerfed in one way or another.

Just listen...I'm not trying to say that you don't have any problems that need to be fixed. We all do. But you really need to understand something...the only reason that Berserkers are equal to Guardians at tanking right now is because of the fact that we have more DPS than you. A lot more. Because like I said you get more of everything else. So it IS balanced. You just seem to keep forgetting all about that. Or maybe you just don't care. The fact is I really don't think you're quite as bad off as you want people to believe. I think the real problem here is that you just don't like the idea of any other tank in the game being able to hold a candle to your own tanking ability. Many of you guys still seem to insist on being the top tank in the game and the #1 choice for MT in all raids and groups all the time, no questions asked. It's like you just can't stand the idea of maybe having to assist another tank sometimes. Well like I said you better just get yourself out of that mentality or you will never be happy with your class again. That was the whole point of the combat revamp that came with LU13. That is the whole reason why other types of tanks exist in the game besides Guardians. So that there is a choice of different tanking styles and not just one uber tank class that is truely better than all the others making it totally useless to play any of the other classes that are available to do the same job.

Just remember that we are all having problems right now. And being selfish isn't going to help the situation. We need to work together. But no, you don't want to cooperate with any of the other tanking classes to try and get our problems fixed, you only want your own problems fixed while leaving the rest of us gimped just so you can be overpowered again.

Bull crap. You ARE saying that Guardians don't have anything that needs fixed. Your basing that of your perception that Guardians tank better when you don't seem to accept that fact that according to SOE and 99% of everybody else here all fighters tank equally. Provide numbers and facts becasue I don't give a crap about your opinion.

As for all fighters having problems, this is a Guardian thread and I would not presume to address an all fighter problem in a Guardian titled thread. And to be honest, I won't even think about any overall fighter problems until my Guardian is balanced with all other fighters, which in case you forgot is not only Bezerkers. It's Bruisers, Monks, Shadow Knights, Paladins, Bezerks and Guardians.

Now go find facts and present them. I'd LOVE to see them and if I'm wrong then I will eat my keyboard. Don't expect me to not ask questions becasue I will and if your numbers can hold up then I'd accept them.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-29-2005 04:47 PM

I'm still waiting for an update from a Developer or Moderator on when Guardians are going to be fixed.

Remann · 12-30-2005, 05:25 AM

If your that unhappy with the guardian class, then why don't you do what I did? I wasn't happy with the changes. Although I have completed all of the original 22 heritage quest, I retired the character (retired not deleted) and started another that I am happy with. Instead of deleting the toon, I utilize him for harvesting and tradeskilling (woodworker). As a former Guardian, I would rather see what in testing here, than see the whining. Please keep the complaints in the proper foram.

Wasuna · 12-30-2005, 10:32 PM

Remann wrote:
If your that unhappy ... in the proper foram.

I see your post as a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Guardians are so distasteful that people have to create another one after lu13 Just to enjoy the game.

Now to address a few things:

1. Whining? Why does everybody automatically call a plea to be heard and fixed whining? This post is not whining, it's asking SOE to give what they promised which is balance amoung the fighters classes. If you look at my first post I only asked for an update from SOE. It's all the follow up posts that made me get into arguments and discussions. How is that whinig? I'll quote a line from one of my favorite movies to address the whinig comment "I don't think that means what you think it means."

2. Where else should I post this? They closed the combat feedback forum. They haven't posted on the Guardian forum for about a month. I tracked all the moderators and didn't write down when the last one was. Something like November 13th was the last post on the Guardian forum. The Guardian forum has MULTIPLE threads asking this same thing in multiple ways. Where else can I go to get a reply? You notice that the Moderators/Developers haven't touched this thread even to say it's inappropriate so I can only assume it is appropriate here and that they are just ignoring another Guardian asking for an update.

Wasuna · 12-30-2005, 10:45 PM

You want to see why Guardians complain? The just look at the link below. I want everybody to know that I concoder a bruiser an impressive class and I'm happy for their situation. I just want the same for my Guardian since balance and equality was the goal of LU13.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=10226

infernus006 · 12-31-2005, 01:27 AM

"Cop-out? I don't think so." then what was the point of making a duplicate thread when you already had one started with this same exact topic? what else do you call it? it's only because someone posted there that didn't agree with you and you just can't take it. the funniest part is you pretty much even admitted that yourself. "It's not my fault that I realized a long time ago that I will never compare in DPS and selected everything I wear based on AC and HP and totally ignore strength and agility." rofl how is that not your own fault? it was your choice to pick those stats was it not? and imo not a very smart one since str is the primary stat for all fighters, which includes guardians. that's something we were supposed to learn on the island. but anyway why don't you just do a respec and go all str if all you really care about is having more dps? but of course your dps is never going to be as good as other fighters because guardians are supposed to be the most defensive fighter in the game, right? there's no way you can really change that. and don't forget, pallies are the defensive version of the crusader class and they don't get very much dps either. sk's and zerkers get the most dps of all the plate tanks because we have less defense than pallies and guards. if you don't like that then what do you want then? do you want all the plate tanks to just have the exact same abilies and not have anything different or better or worse than the others? if so then what's the point of having 4 different classes of plate tank in the game? "Guardians wear the exact same armor, exact same jewelery, exact same shields and can use the exact same weapons as Bezerkers." that's right and since they can use all the same weapons they can get the exact same dps from their autoattack if they have the same str. zerkers just get more offensive ca's that do more damage and guards get a lot of defensive ones instead. is that so wrong? if you wanted to be able to do any real damage in this game then you shouldn't have picked the guardian as your class because it's just not their job to do any real damage. their job is to "protect", right? so that's the kind of skills they get. now if there's something wrong with your ability to do that then yes there is a problem that needs to be fixed, i will give you that. but i rather doubt that is the case and it's not like you get 0 dps either. if you have good enough str you should be able to solo mobs just as well as i can, it just might take you a bit longer. but so what, it takes me a lot longer to solo a mob than it takes a same-level bruiser to solo the exact same mob. but do i complain about it? no i don't because i appreciate having the extra defense that a bruiser does not have. "Guardian mitigation is NOT higher than any other plate class, Guardian Avoidance is NOT higher than any other plate class." i don't see how that is true when every guard i inspect that has the same quality or even lesser quality gear than i have always has more mitigation and avoidance than me in the same stance, even ones that are several levels below me when i have more agi than them too. but am i complaining about it? no i am not because i know that i can do more dps than them and that's why i chose my class over theirs, because that's what i wanted and to be honest i am happy with it. "If you want to talk about advantages then why don't you go find the Moorgaurd post that actually states that avoidance tanks get higher percentages of avoidance to overbalance them to help make up for the negative perception that avoidance tanks have." well i wasn't even saying anything about avoidance fighters. i know moorguard plays a bruiser though, or at least that's what i've heard. and i don't think it's right if they are overpowered and they may very well be but even so it's still not really helping them as far as i can tell because there really is no possible way to make avoidance be as reliable as mitigation without making them totally impervious to taking any hits at all, which they simply cannot do. that's just the way it is and that's the main reason why most people prefer to have a plate tank be their mt and probably always will. even most brawlers i know prefer to have a plate tank be the mt in their groups. imo it doesn't really hurt them because they get almost the same dps as a scout and are probably the best soloers in the game. i have heard of brawlers soloing yellow con triple ups on a regular basis. can i do that? hell no i can't. but am i really complaining about it? no i am not. because i know that in reality i am still a better tank than them, or at least i think so. "SOE has stated that all fighters now tank equally well." i am not disputing that. but you fail to see the point that the only reason we are able to tank as well as you is because we have extra abilites to make up for the lack of uber defensive abilites you have that make you such a good tank. zerkers get more melee dps, sk's get lifetaps, and pallies get direct heals. you get all sorts of ca's that prevent you and/or your groupmats from taking any damage at all, am i wrong about that? isn't that what makes the guardian class a "guardian"? "Now I will say that I can buff my HP by about 500-600 (400-500 of those are group HP's so everybody gets it). How does that help me when it takes me twice as long to kill something solo while it beats on me?" very simple...the more hp you have the more hits you can take therefore the longer you stay alive. "How does me having a group HP buff help when the tank is the only one suppose to be getting hit?" because in reality the tank is not always the one getting hit all the time. there's these things called aoe's plus the fact that tanks can and do loose aggro to high dps classes on a regular basis and they have very little defense of their own. furthermore since your hp buff is a group buff well guess what...if you'r grouped with another tank that's appointed as the mt then you are buffing his hp and im sure he appreciates it. does that bother you? "I'd give my HP buff up for a group haste or DPS buff in a HEARTBEAT." um correct me if i'm wrong but guardians do in fact get a group buff for offensive melee skills. you get that and the group hp buff too, among other things. so what's the problem? and the zerker group dps buff is proc based, not perma like yours is.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-30-2005 03:35 PM

Wasuna · 12-31-2005, 02:46 AM

infernus006 wrote:

"Cop-out? I don't think so."

then what was the point of making a duplicate thread when you already had one started with this same exact topic? what else do you call it? it's only because someone posted there that didn't agree with you and you just can't take it. the funniest part is you pretty much even admitted that yourself.

Becasue you derailed the first oje just like this one. I asked for an update fromSOE not a bezerker. I admitted what I think is right but I have no clue what your referencing here. Your a Bezerker that likes how things are now and refuse to see other people situations.

"It's not my fault that I realized a long time ago that I will never compare in DPS and selected everything I wear based on AC and HP and totally ignore strength and agility."

rofl how is that not your own fault? it was your choice to pick those stats was it not? and imo not a very smart one since str is the primary stat for all fighters, which includes guardians. that's something we were supposed to learn on the island. but anyway why don't you just do a respec and go all str if all you really care about is having more dps? but of course your dps is never going to be as good as other fighters because guardians are supposed to be the most defensive fighter in the game, right? there's no way you can really change that. and don't forget, pallies are the defensive version of the crusader class and they don't get very much dps either. sk's and zerkers get the most dps of all the plate tanks because we have less defense than pallies and guards. if you don't like that then what do you want then? do you want all the plate tanks to just have the exact same abilies and not have anything different or better or worse than the others? if so then what's the point of having 4 different classes of plate tank in the game?

No, I saw that my DPS with even equal strength would be nothing compared to other fighters so I chose to not even try. You mention CA's for added DPS and I can assure you they make a HUGE difference. Guardians are NOT suppose to be the most defensive in the game. SOE specifically changed that with LU13. How hard is it for you to see that. Before LU13 we were the most defensive. Now we are not. All fighters tank equally well. Period. No discussion. No opinion. Just facts from SOE because SOE programs the game. You need to understand that. Guardians ARE NOT THE MOST DEFENSIVE TANK IN THE GAME. All fighters are equal tanks. I say it again, per SOE, all fighters are equal tanks. Equal. Equal. Equal...

Just so you know, SOE says all fighters are equal tanks. Equal. Not one better than others. All are equal tanks. That was the whole puopse of LU13 for fighters. We are all equal. I don't know whay there are 4 plate classes. We are all different but we all tank EQUALLY WELL. The difference are in the DPS and Utility, NOT THE TANKING ABILITY. Do ya get it?

Do you understand now?

"Guardians wear the exact same armor, exact same jewelery, exact same shields and can use the exact same weapons as Bezerkers."

that's right and since they can use all the same weapons they can get the exact same dps from their autoattack if they have the same str. zerkers just get more offensive ca's that do more damage and guards get a lot of defensive ones instead. is that so wrong? if you wanted to be able to do any real damage in this game then you shouldn't have picked the guardian as your class because it's just not their job to do any real damage. their job is to "protect", right? so that's the kind of skills they get. now if there's something wrong with your ability to do that then yes there is a problem that needs to be fixed, i will give you that. but i rather doubt that is the case and it's not like you get 0 dps either. if you have good enough str you should be able to solo mobs just as well as i can, it just might take you a bit longer. but so what, it takes me a lot longer to solo a mob than it takes a same-level bruiser to solo the exact same mob. but do i complain about it? no i don't because i appreciate having the extra defense that a bruiser does not have.

More bull crap. With exact same equipment a Bezerker would be able to double or triple my DPS output even with me going allout in a DPS mode (2hander, DW Offensive stance). CA's do huge things to your DPS. There are parses in the Guardian forum where paladins out DPS us by 20-30% in offensive on raids and they are tossing heals.

When I protect people I increase the actually damage my group takes. Also, I take the hit based on the AC of the person I'm protecting. It's not fun to have 8K HP on a raid and get one shooted becasue the caster got agro and you had them proetected. I have even been one shotted and the person I was protecting died also becasue I get 100% of the hit and they get anywhere from 25-50% of the hit (yes that does equal 125-150% of the hit) themselves. Fun isn't it.

"Guardian mitigation is NOT higher than any other plate class, Guardian Avoidance is NOT higher than any other plate class."

i don't see how that is true when every guard i inspect that has the same quality or even lesser quality gear than i have always has more mitigation and avoidance than me in the same stance, even ones that are several levels below me when i have more agi than them too. but am i complaining about it? no i am not because i know that i can do more dps than them and that's why i chose my class over theirs, because that's what i wanted and to be honest i am happy with it.

We wear the same stuff and do not get a class AC upgrade. Your not inspecting the peoples equipment well enough to find the reason for yourself. Your not complaining about the faulty info you have becasue you can out DPS the Guardian by 3-4 to 1.

"If you want to talk about advantages then why don't you go find the Moorgaurd post that actually states that avoidance tanks get higher percentages of avoidance to overbalance them to help make up for the negative perception that avoidance tanks have."

well i wasn't even saying anything about avoidance fighters. i know moorguard plays a bruiser though, or at least that's what i've heard. and i don't think it's right if they are overpowered and they may very well be but even so it's still not really helping them as far as i can tell because there really is no possible way to make avoidance be as reliable as mitigation without making them totally impervious to taking any hits at all, which they simply cannot do. that's just the way it is and that's the main reason why most people prefer to have a plate tank be their mt and probably always will. even most brawlers i know prefer to have a plate tank be the mt in their groups. imo it doesn't really hurt them because they get almost the same dps as a scout and are probably the best soloers in the game. i have heard of brawlers soloing yellow con triple ups on a regular basis. can i do that? hell no i can't. but am i really complaining about it? no i am not. because i know that in reality i am still a better tank than them, or at least i think so.

Your wrong. SOE specifically balanced all fighters for raid situations. Look at the caps on mitigation, how raid targets now address mitigation on the damage they do and how resists are key now. You'll see that for experiance groups avoidance wins out and for raid targets mitigation and avoidnace balance out to be equal. SOE did this so all fighters wuld be EQUAL. You say just below this that you do not dispute that all fighters are equal tanks but here you say they are not.

"SOE has stated that all fighters now tank equally well."

i am not disputing that. but you fail to see the point that the only reason we are able to tank as well as you is because we have extra abilites to make up for the lack of uber defensive abilites you have that make you such a good tank. zerkers get more melee dps, sk's get lifetaps, and pallies get direct heals. you get all sorts of ca's that prevent you and/or your groupmats from taking any damage at all, am i wrong about that? isn't that what makes the guardian class a "guardian"?

"Now I will say that I can buff my HP by about 500-600 (400-500 of those are group HP's so everybody gets it). How does that help me when it takes me twice as long to kill something solo while it beats on me?"

very simple...the more hp you have the more hits you can take therefore the longer you stay alive.

In two sentences you say you agree we are equal tanks then say Guardians are better tanks. You my friend need to descide what you believe in. SOE has stated many time, over and over even, that all fighters are equal tanks. Period.

I can buff myself for a max total of 511 HP. Yep. 511 HP can only help. I'll give ya that.

"How does me having a group HP buff help when the tank is the only one suppose to be getting hit?"

because in reality the tank is not always the one getting hit all the time. there's these things called aoe's plus the fact that tanks can and do loose aggro to high dps classes on a regular basis and they have very little defense of their own. furthermore since your hp buff is a group buff well guess what...if you'r grouped with another tank that's appointed as the mt then you are buffing his hp and im sure he appreciates it. does that bother you?

I agree. 511 HP buff can only help. But about 120 of that is self only so it's probably closer to 400.

"I'd give my HP buff up for a group haste or DPS buff in a HEARTBEAT."

um correct me if i'm wrong but guardians do in fact get a group buff for offensive melee skills. you get that and the group hp buff too, among other things. so what's the problem? and the zerker group dps buff is proc based, not perma like yours is.

Guardians get a group buff that ups the attack skill by 15 or so. Before LU13 this was HUGE for hitting high con mobs. Now it does almost nothing. All skill buffs were cut way back. The qhole reason Guardians were so good pre LU13 was that we had a group and self only Defense buff that HUGELY effected the rate a mob would hit us. All of that was changed. I'd still take a DPS or haste group buff over these ANY DAY.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-30-200503:35 PM

I'm just going to answer all your questions and comment in this thread. When your done I'll start another again that is clean.

JuJut · 12-31-2005, 04:27 AM

Wasuna wrote:

I'm just going to answer all your questions and comment in this thread. When your done I'll start another again that is clean.

And I'll report that spam as well. And I'm sure that one will generate replies that disagree with you as well.

Wasuna · 12-31-2005, 04:33 AM

Opinion, opinion. Show me facts and numbers. If you want them for Guardians then just spend a couple of minutes onthe Guardian forum.

infernus006 · 12-31-2005, 04:34 AM

"No, I saw that my DPS with even equal strength would be nothing compared to other fighters so I chose to not even try." then you have no right to complain that you have 0 dps. becuase you did not even try at all. you even admit that yourself. so you have no one to blame for that but yourself. but the reason you did not try you are saying is because you think it wouldn't matter. well you are wrong. every little bit of everything matters in this game. but yeah you are never going to have equal dps with the offensive tanks when you are a defensive tank that gets more defense than an offensive tank does. it's a very simple and understandable concept. but that doesn't mean you should totally ignore the potential that you do have to be able to do some dps with your class. so imo it would probably be better for you to get as much str as you can so you can do more dps since you already have so much defense stuff that comes with your class anyway. why in gods name did you choose all defensive traits on a purely defensive class and then start crying about the fact that you have virtually no dps because of it? rofl "The difference are in the DPS and Utility, NOT THE TANKING ABILITY. Do ya get it?" no you are the one who still does not get it. we do not get extra dps in addition to equal tanking ability like you are saying. that is not how it works. they are not two totally separate things like that. listen...our dps is FACTORED IN with our tanking ability. that is the way soe made it, they said so themselves. and this is what i have been trying to tell you all along. we RELY on our dps to help us keep aggro and burn mobs down faster because we can't take as much damage as you and we get less taunts. that is a fact. and that's the whole point of being an offensive tank instead of a defensive one and that's the whole point that you are missing.

and you also need to understand that i have nothing at all against guardians. like i said before i think they are fine tanks. i do not wish for them to gimped at all. in fact i've even been thinking about making one myself after they do the patch that changes the islands. i also like having them as my mt when i play my level 30 wizard alt.

Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-30-2005 06:55 PM

Chog · 12-31-2005, 05:35 AM

Wasuna,

Guardians are better tanks then other plate tanks. They do have more health, more defense (and avoidance because of the defense), and an easier time landing hits in defensive stance. How great the divide is can be argued; however, Guardians are better tanks then other plate tanks. Guardians receive buffs that help them to tank, just like other classes recieve combat arts to do more damage. It is a trade off. Mind you I am not saying Guardians can not be upgraded in some way, just stating that Guardians are better tanks.

Call of Defense

This increases the defense of the group. Because of this spell Guardians have higher defense then any other fighter.

Call to War

Increases the offensive skills. Know how all Fighters complain they miss a lot more while in Defensive stance? Guardians are able to land more blows in defensive then any other Fighter because of this.

Steely Conviction

Self stamina buff. This allows the Guardian to have more health then other fighters even if in the same group.

Return to Battle

Group health buff. This allows the Guardian to have more health then any other Fighter.

Guardians also get the 30 second mitigation buffs (Berserkers get a few as well, I do not know about other fighters).

So when people state that Guardians have more health, more defense, more avoidance (this is only because of the more defense though), and more mitigation they are talking about the defensive buffs available to the Guardian over the Offensive buffs other's get.

Landiin · 12-31-2005, 11:59 AM

Guards arn't the best tank, they arn't the worst tank, all tanks as far as tanking goes are real close if geared with the same level eqpt. The def come from utils, some say the utils are ok some say they are not. Its mostly just in the opinion of the player. I wouldn't mind having more DPS to help hold agro or so solo a bit better but it seems all plate tanks are having this issue no that pallys got hit with a nerf bat.With the right buffs any of the fighter line can tank real close, It just depends on the buffs and class stacking. Go out side the box.IMO the real imballance is the ratio of power used to maintain agro to vs the power used for DPS. It takes way to much power to keep agro of just mardernt dps. Don't get me wrong I do think agro should be lost if a DPS goes all out. But I do also think agro should be able to be regained if said DPSer quits attacking and the tank taunt 2 or 3 times. Rescue should be 100% none resistable with its timer. Any way blah blah blah, this is what has made the game lose most of its luster for me. If I am always out of power and every one else is 85 to 90% power, It makes me feel I am holding the group back and I am. This puts undue stress on the tank player as he has to worry about his power usage more so then the good of the group. That just MO and I am sure yours is not the same.

Message Edited by Landiin on 12-31-2005 01:01 AM

Tanit · 12-31-2005, 07:36 PM

Landiin wrote:
Guards arn't the best tank, they arn't the worst tank, all tanks as far as tanking goes are real close if geared with the same level eqpt. The def come from utils, some say the utils are ok some say they are not. Its mostly just in the opinion of the player. I wouldn't mind having more DPS to help hold agro or so solo a bit better but it seems all plate tanks are having this issue no that pallys got hit with a nerf bat.

It's only close when fighting heroic mobs, since those are very weak. Even scouts can tank those.

Taishi · 01-02-2006, 02:15 PM

Ok I hate joining the bandwagon of other people saying your complaining but you really are overreacting to the situation at hand. I myself have a 52 guardian as my alt and he does out perform any other tank class at doing his job which is tanking. I understand that it makes you angry not being able to solo anything big but to be honest the class you are playing is not intended to do that anyway. Most people stopped playing guardians after the combat updates cause they couldn't go soloing any heroic mob they wanted. Pre-combat changes guardians could out solo any class and now they can't which where I think youre trying to change . To be honest I don't see any real problems with overall playability for which the class is intended. The only thing I would actually like to see in a guardian as a change is a mild dps increase or a self haste like we used to have to to give a bit better of a chance to solo more efficiently. If you want to see changes you have to be realistic. You're asking for an all in one player the equivalent of the guardians pre-combat changes and it won't happen. As for our buffs we are built to tank and we can take more dmg than any other class. We have a short reuse rescue that no other class has. We have hp, stamina, mitigation, strong taunts, and an all around solid set up for grouping and raiding. Just because we can't beat the [Removed for Content] out of a mob doesn't mean that we suck. Just my 2 cp on it.

diamondma · 01-02-2006, 04:57 PM

the power issue really isnt a class problem tbh its mostly because alot of mobs specially nameds drain power now. and for the guy crying about guardians being unbalanced u should look at the major raiding guilds across all the servers. i can say that 90% of them have guardians in their mt group on raids wether they are tanking or not. dont cry about ur class being broken i think the major issue is that guards went from being uber almost untouchable tanks with the right buffs to being even with the rest of the crew. quit cryin or reroll its that simple.

12-28-2005, 11:56 PM	#3
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	Wasuna wrote: I'd be more than happy to go to the test server and help test it if needed. I'd just like to hear from the somebody official on why you killed one of your 24 classes? I tank equal to my other 5 fighter brothers but I have NOTHING else besides that. When are you going to fix that? What exactly are you looking for? A mythical revamp or do you have some specific requests. Specifics usually help get your point across rather then being vague. __________________

12-29-2005, 12:05 AM	#4
JuJut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 143	Mrhanky wrote: 99% of all raids use guardians as mt, so stop your whining please... Or at least confine it to one thread instead of spamming this forum. This thread is only a few lines down why did you need another one? http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=39424

12-29-2005, 02:12 AM	#5
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Guardians tanking ability is equal to all other fighters. Guardian DPS is about 1/2 the average fighter DPS. Guardian Utility is flawed in that we actually increase the overall damage a group takes by 20% or more when we guard others. Equal tanking, very low DPS and unuseable utility = NOT EQUAL Fighter As for posting another thread, the other one was derailed by a Bezerkers and since a Moderator didn't lock this thread I didn't break any rules. That means when this thread gets to far down I'll post another thread asking when Guardians are going to get fixed again until the Developers answer or the Moderators stop it. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-29-2005, 02:15 AM	#6
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Mrhanky wrote: 99% of all raids use guardians as mt, so stop your whining please... Even the Raid MT's in the Guardian forum agree that Brawlers make just as good raid tanks but that it's very difficult to outfit a brawler in good stated fabled and that most guilds are just used to a Guardian MT. Maybe if you posted something useful to dispute what I say I'd "stop my whining". __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-29-2005, 02:22 AM	#7
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	KBern wrote: Wasuna wrote: I'd be more than happy to go to the test server and help test it if needed. I'd just like to hear from the somebody official on why you killed one of your 24 classes? I tank equal to my other 5 fighter brothers but I have NOTHING else besides that. When are you going to fix that? What exactly are you looking for? A mythical revamp or do you have some specific requests. Specifics usually help get your point across rather then being vague. The Guardian forum has about 15,000 posts on this topic. The Developers and Moderators do not go to that forum anymore after the infamous Unsung Hero comment and the like. There has not been a Moderator or Developer post in around 4 weeks on the most active class forum by around 4,000 posts. That's why these posts are here now. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-28-2005, 11:18 PM	#1
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	I'd be more than happy to go to the test server and help test it if needed. I'd just like to hear from the somebody official on why you killed one of your 24 classes? I tank equal to my other 5 fighter brothers but I have NOTHING else besides that. When are you going to fix that? __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-28-2005, 11:33 PM	#2
Mrhan Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 50	99% of all raids use guardians as mt, so stop your whining please...

12-29-2005, 02:42 AM	#8
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	Trust me, they have seen those threads. Now if they agree with them, and are addressing them are entirely different issues. Starting new threads on the topic with no information won't make them address them any faster either. __________________

12-29-2005, 02:55 AM	#9
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	KBern wrote: Trust me, they have seen those threads. Now if they agree with them, and are addressing them are entirely different issues. Starting new threads on the topic with no information won't make them address them any faster either. Well then. What do you suggest then to get some form of reply? We only have so many options here now don't we? __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-29-2005, 03:15 AM	#10
JuJut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 143	Wasuna wrote: As for posting another thread, the other one was derailed by a Bezerkers and since a Moderator didn't lock this thread I didn't break any rules. That means when this thread gets to far down I'll post another thread asking when Guardians are going to get fixed again until the Developers answer or the Moderators stop it. Fair enough. I'll do my part and report every spam thread you create and then move on. We'll leave it up to the moderators. I'm adding a TOS blurb from the boycott thread. Seems pretty clear that your violating the very first bullet but as you said we'll let the mods decide, I'll just do the reporting. Furthermore, you may NOT: Make multiple posts on the same subject for the purpose of getting attention paid to your issue. Post comments in threads for the purpose of drawing attention to another thread on a different subject. "Bump" or “/sign” threads. Cross-post the same topic to multiple forums or the same message to multiple threads. Make replies to posts that do not pertain to or are irrelevant to the original topic, such as: In before the Lock, "first," or posting messages to reserve a reply spot with the intention of posting to it later. Troll the forums. "Trolling" is defined as: Posting with the intent of stirring up trouble or to incite disruption. An example of trolling would be posting to a thread without the intent to provide constructive suggestions or comments and instead making disruptive comments. Post topics addressed directly to another player. The Official EverQuest II forums have a private messaging system for conversations between two players. If you want to contact someone directly, use the private messaging system. Use the official forums to debate private issues. The official forums are for all EverQuest II players. If you have an issue with other players or groups, deal with it outside of the public forums in a private space. Solicit for guild membership on the general discussion boards. Please use the forums that were set up for this purpose or head over to the server-specific forums. Use the official forums as a staging ground for creating general unrest within the game or forums, such as sit-ins, polls, petitions, etc. Post exploits, cheats, hacks, or links to websites or domains that contain such material. If you wish to make the team aware of these issues, please send us a private message. Use the official forums as a place to advertise the sale of EverQuest II characters or items in exchange for real-world money. This rule does not apply to any Station Exchange forums. Advertise websites with content that violates these rules, the EverQuest II EULA, or the Station Terms of Service. Advertise products or websites that are not related to EverQuest II orSony Online Entertainment products. Make posts seeking or giving feedback about Customer Service resolutions. All requests and feedback about Customer Service issues should be handled through petitions or emails using the Knowledge Base (www.station.sony.com/kb) and selecting Email Support. All of these rules apply to the forums as well as to the private message system. Message Edited by JuJutsu on 12-28-2005 02:19 PM

12-29-2005, 03:33 AM	#11
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	My opinion is different than yours. In the end neither of our opinions matter, only the Moderators matter. I do have to comment how I think it's pretty symbolic that a brawler class (assuming based on your martial arts based forum name) is so adament about me asking for an update from the Developers/Moderators on Guardians. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-29-2005, 03:46 AM	#12
KBern Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,372	I'm not trying to be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] but I went through this with necros. We sucked royally pre-patch and had many issues. We had a few people continuously post details and parses on our forums over and over on the same threads. We thought nothing was going to happen, and LU 13 came and we had new life. You can post complaints all day but it wont move the SOE mountain. Just keep posting on your board threads or a consolidated thread and you will probably get much mroe attention that many upset guardians making posts like the original one you made in this thread. I hope they address you guys before the next expansion, but knowing SOE, nothing will make them move any faster. Unless of course something is overpowered then they seem to find the time to fix it right away. Good luck. __________________

12-29-2005, 04:03 AM	#13
JuJut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 143	Wasuna wrote: My opinion is different than yours. In the end neither of our opinions matter, only the Moderators matter. I do have to comment how I think it's pretty symbolic that a brawler class (assuming based on your martial arts based forum name) is so adament about me asking for an update from the Developers/Moderators on Guardians. I'm only adamant about spamming the forum. I've given up on pointing out that this particular forum is supposed to be about material currently in testing; they should just rename it General Complaints and be done with it. I don't care for anyone blatantly spamming the forum, regardless of their favorite class. It would be fairly easy put in comments, suggestions, et cetera so that every thread wasn't spam but apparently you would prefer to be petulant and spam demands that you get a personal reply from a developer. It's your call but I'm no more sympathetic than I was when my kids would scream and kick their heels on the floor when they didn't get their way. But I agree with you, only the moderators matter. If I see spam, I'll report it and they can decide.

12-29-2005, 04:14 AM	#14
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	If the Moderators didn't like how this forum was going then they would deal with that also. The Guardian forum has had many threads with Moderator encouraging replies to them and nothing has been done to fix the class. Therefore people get frustrated and start branching out such as this. Like said, in the end I just assume your one of those parents that won't talk to their kids before they assume what they ask for is wrong and won't allow any discussion that doesn't pertain to your own personal wants and needs. Guardians are broken. All Guardians want some kind of indication from SOE how they are going to fix it. I just so happen to be the one that came here to add more to the question and now I'm the one that has to deal witha monk not liking my request for an update. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-29-2005, 08:59 PM	#15
JuJut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 143	Wasuna wrote: Like said, in the end I just assume your one of those parents that won't talk to their kids before they assume what they ask for is wrong and won't allow any discussion that doesn't pertain to your own personal wants and needs. :smileyvery-happy:

12-30-2005, 02:43 AM	#16
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"Guardians tanking ability is equal to all other fighters." Nice try at a cop-out Was. You never did answer my question about how your tanking ability is "equal" to other fighters when you do in fact still have the most HP, the most mitigation, the most avoidance, and the most taunts of all the fighter classes in the game. I know you think you're taunts are useless (which is bullcrap) but are also trying to say that HP, mitigation, and avoidance don't do a thing for you either? Well if that's true then I would like to know what you think does really matter. "Guardian DPS is about 1/2 the average fighter DPS." Yeah well like I said that might have something to do with the fact that you get more of everything else that really matters in tanking than any other fighter. You can't realistically expect them to make it so that you have the most defensive capabilities and equal DPS with the rest of the fighter classes at the same time. Honestly, how is that fair? This is just ridiculous. You think that you are the only fighter class in the game that got any nerfs in the revamp and you refuse to listen to the truth, that we all got nerfed in one way or another. Just listen...I'm not trying to say that you don't have any problems that need to be fixed. We all do. But you really need to understand something...the only reason that Berserkers are equal to Guardians at tanking right now is because of the fact that we have more DPS than you. A lot more. Because like I said you get more of everything else. So it IS balanced. You just seem to keep forgetting all about that. Or maybe you just don't care. The fact is I really don't think you're quite as bad off as you want people to believe. I think the real problem here is that you just don't like the idea of any other tank in the game being able to hold a candle to your own tanking ability. Many of you guys still seem to insist on being the top tank in the game and the #1 choice for MT in all raids and groups all the time, no questions asked. It's like you just can't stand the idea of maybe having to assist another tank sometimes. Well like I said you better just get yourself out of that mentality or you will never be happy with your class again. That was the whole point of the combat revamp that came with LU13. That is the whole reason why other types of tanks exist in the game besides Guardians. So that there is a choice of different tanking styles and not just one uber tank class that is truely better than all the others making it totally useless to play any of the other classes that are available to do the same job. Just remember that we are all having problems right now. And being selfish isn't going to help the situation. We need to work together. But no, you don't want to cooperate with any of the other tanking classes to try and get our problems fixed, you only want your own problems fixed while leaving the rest of us gimped just so you can be overpowered again. Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-29-2005 04:47 PM

12-30-2005, 04:39 AM	#17
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	infernus006 wrote: "Guardians tanking ability is equal to all other fighters." Nice try at a cop-out Was. You never did answer my question about how your tanking ability is "equal" to other fighters when you do in fact still have the most HP, the most mitigation, the most avoidance, and the most taunts of all the fighter classes in the game. I know you think you're taunts are useless (which is bullcrap) but are also trying to say that HP, mitigation, and avoidance don't do a thing for you either? Well if that's true then I would like to know what you think does really matter. Cop-out? I don't think so. Like I said in the other thread, Guardians wear the exact same armor, exact same jewelery, exact same shields and can use the exact same weapons as Bezerkers. It's not my fault that I realized a long time ago that I will never compare in DPS and selected everything I wear based on AC and HP and totally ignore strength and agility. Guardian mitigation is NOT higher than any other plate class, Guardian Avoidance is NOT higher than any other plate class. If you want to talk about advantages then why don't you go find the Moorgaurd post that actually states that avoidance tanks get higher percentages of avoidance to overbalance them to help make up for the negative perception that avoidance tanks have. SOE has stated that all fighters now tank equally well. You can agrue with them if you think you can. To be honest, I think Guardians tank worse that avoidance tanks and I showed numbers for this but it's just accepted by everybody now that all fighters tank equally. Provide numbers. I have and you can go find them. Now I will say that I can buff my HP by about 500-600 (400-500 of those are group HP's so everybody gets it). How does that help me when it takes me twice as long to kill something solo while it beats on me? How does that help when another fighter as a tank (other than a Guardian) in a group can kill something 10-20% faster in a group becasue they increase the group DPS by 10-20% over a Guardian as a tank. How does me having a group HP buff help when the tank is the only one suppose to be getting hit? I'd give my HP buff up for a group haste or DPS buff in a HEARTBEAT. "Guardian DPS is about 1/2 the average fighter DPS." Yeah well like I said that might have something to do with the fact that you get more of everything else that really matters in tanking than any other fighter. You can't realistically expect them to make it so that you have the most defensive capabilities and equal DPS with the rest of the fighter classes at the same time. Honestly, how is that fair? This is just ridiculous. You think that you are the only fighter class in the game that got any nerfs in the revamp and you refuse to listen to the truth, that we all got nerfed in one way or another. Just listen...I'm not trying to say that you don't have any problems that need to be fixed. We all do. But you really need to understand something...the only reason that Berserkers are equal to Guardians at tanking right now is because of the fact that we have more DPS than you. A lot more. Because like I said you get more of everything else. So it IS balanced. You just seem to keep forgetting all about that. Or maybe you just don't care. The fact is I really don't think you're quite as bad off as you want people to believe. I think the real problem here is that you just don't like the idea of any other tank in the game being able to hold a candle to your own tanking ability. Many of you guys still seem to insist on being the top tank in the game and the #1 choice for MT in all raids and groups all the time, no questions asked. It's like you just can't stand the idea of maybe having to assist another tank sometimes. Well like I said you better just get yourself out of that mentality or you will never be happy with your class again. That was the whole point of the combat revamp that came with LU13. That is the whole reason why other types of tanks exist in the game besides Guardians. So that there is a choice of different tanking styles and not just one uber tank class that is truely better than all the others making it totally useless to play any of the other classes that are available to do the same job. Just remember that we are all having problems right now. And being selfish isn't going to help the situation. We need to work together. But no, you don't want to cooperate with any of the other tanking classes to try and get our problems fixed, you only want your own problems fixed while leaving the rest of us gimped just so you can be overpowered again. Bull crap. You ARE saying that Guardians don't have anything that needs fixed. Your basing that of your perception that Guardians tank better when you don't seem to accept that fact that according to SOE and 99% of everybody else here all fighters tank equally. Provide numbers and facts becasue I don't give a crap about your opinion. As for all fighters having problems, this is a Guardian thread and I would not presume to address an all fighter problem in a Guardian titled thread. And to be honest, I won't even think about any overall fighter problems until my Guardian is balanced with all other fighters, which in case you forgot is not only Bezerkers. It's Bruisers, Monks, Shadow Knights, Paladins, Bezerks and Guardians. Now go find facts and present them. I'd LOVE to see them and if I'm wrong then I will eat my keyboard. Don't expect me to not ask questions becasue I will and if your numbers can hold up then I'd accept them. Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-29-2005 04:47 PM I'm still waiting for an update from a Developer or Moderator on when Guardians are going to be fixed. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-30-2005, 05:25 AM	#18
Remann Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: California, USA Posts: 69	If your that unhappy with the guardian class, then why don't you do what I did? I wasn't happy with the changes. Although I have completed all of the original 22 heritage quest, I retired the character (retired not deleted) and started another that I am happy with. Instead of deleting the toon, I utilize him for harvesting and tradeskilling (woodworker). As a former Guardian, I would rather see what in testing here, than see the whining. Please keep the complaints in the proper foram. __________________

12-30-2005, 10:32 PM	#19
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Remann wrote: If your that unhappy ... in the proper foram. I see your post as a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Guardians are so distasteful that people have to create another one after lu13 Just to enjoy the game. Now to address a few things: 1. Whining? Why does everybody automatically call a plea to be heard and fixed whining? This post is not whining, it's asking SOE to give what they promised which is balance amoung the fighters classes. If you look at my first post I only asked for an update from SOE. It's all the follow up posts that made me get into arguments and discussions. How is that whinig? I'll quote a line from one of my favorite movies to address the whinig comment "I don't think that means what you think it means." 2. Where else should I post this? They closed the combat feedback forum. They haven't posted on the Guardian forum for about a month. I tracked all the moderators and didn't write down when the last one was. Something like November 13th was the last post on the Guardian forum. The Guardian forum has MULTIPLE threads asking this same thing in multiple ways. Where else can I go to get a reply? You notice that the Moderators/Developers haven't touched this thread even to say it's inappropriate so I can only assume it is appropriate here and that they are just ignoring another Guardian asking for an update. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-30-2005, 10:45 PM	#20
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	You want to see why Guardians complain? The just look at the link below. I want everybody to know that I concoder a bruiser an impressive class and I'm happy for their situation. I just want the same for my Guardian since balance and equality was the goal of LU13. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=10226 __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-31-2005, 01:27 AM	#21
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"Cop-out? I don't think so." then what was the point of making a duplicate thread when you already had one started with this same exact topic? what else do you call it? it's only because someone posted there that didn't agree with you and you just can't take it. the funniest part is you pretty much even admitted that yourself. "It's not my fault that I realized a long time ago that I will never compare in DPS and selected everything I wear based on AC and HP and totally ignore strength and agility." rofl how is that not your own fault? it was your choice to pick those stats was it not? and imo not a very smart one since str is the primary stat for all fighters, which includes guardians. that's something we were supposed to learn on the island. but anyway why don't you just do a respec and go all str if all you really care about is having more dps? but of course your dps is never going to be as good as other fighters because guardians are supposed to be the most defensive fighter in the game, right? there's no way you can really change that. and don't forget, pallies are the defensive version of the crusader class and they don't get very much dps either. sk's and zerkers get the most dps of all the plate tanks because we have less defense than pallies and guards. if you don't like that then what do you want then? do you want all the plate tanks to just have the exact same abilies and not have anything different or better or worse than the others? if so then what's the point of having 4 different classes of plate tank in the game? "Guardians wear the exact same armor, exact same jewelery, exact same shields and can use the exact same weapons as Bezerkers." that's right and since they can use all the same weapons they can get the exact same dps from their autoattack if they have the same str. zerkers just get more offensive ca's that do more damage and guards get a lot of defensive ones instead. is that so wrong? if you wanted to be able to do any real damage in this game then you shouldn't have picked the guardian as your class because it's just not their job to do any real damage. their job is to "protect", right? so that's the kind of skills they get. now if there's something wrong with your ability to do that then yes there is a problem that needs to be fixed, i will give you that. but i rather doubt that is the case and it's not like you get 0 dps either. if you have good enough str you should be able to solo mobs just as well as i can, it just might take you a bit longer. but so what, it takes me a lot longer to solo a mob than it takes a same-level bruiser to solo the exact same mob. but do i complain about it? no i don't because i appreciate having the extra defense that a bruiser does not have. "Guardian mitigation is NOT higher than any other plate class, Guardian Avoidance is NOT higher than any other plate class." i don't see how that is true when every guard i inspect that has the same quality or even lesser quality gear than i have always has more mitigation and avoidance than me in the same stance, even ones that are several levels below me when i have more agi than them too. but am i complaining about it? no i am not because i know that i can do more dps than them and that's why i chose my class over theirs, because that's what i wanted and to be honest i am happy with it. "If you want to talk about advantages then why don't you go find the Moorgaurd post that actually states that avoidance tanks get higher percentages of avoidance to overbalance them to help make up for the negative perception that avoidance tanks have." well i wasn't even saying anything about avoidance fighters. i know moorguard plays a bruiser though, or at least that's what i've heard. and i don't think it's right if they are overpowered and they may very well be but even so it's still not really helping them as far as i can tell because there really is no possible way to make avoidance be as reliable as mitigation without making them totally impervious to taking any hits at all, which they simply cannot do. that's just the way it is and that's the main reason why most people prefer to have a plate tank be their mt and probably always will. even most brawlers i know prefer to have a plate tank be the mt in their groups. imo it doesn't really hurt them because they get almost the same dps as a scout and are probably the best soloers in the game. i have heard of brawlers soloing yellow con triple ups on a regular basis. can i do that? hell no i can't. but am i really complaining about it? no i am not. because i know that in reality i am still a better tank than them, or at least i think so. "SOE has stated that all fighters now tank equally well." i am not disputing that. but you fail to see the point that the only reason we are able to tank as well as you is because we have extra abilites to make up for the lack of uber defensive abilites you have that make you such a good tank. zerkers get more melee dps, sk's get lifetaps, and pallies get direct heals. you get all sorts of ca's that prevent you and/or your groupmats from taking any damage at all, am i wrong about that? isn't that what makes the guardian class a "guardian"? "Now I will say that I can buff my HP by about 500-600 (400-500 of those are group HP's so everybody gets it). How does that help me when it takes me twice as long to kill something solo while it beats on me?" very simple...the more hp you have the more hits you can take therefore the longer you stay alive. "How does me having a group HP buff help when the tank is the only one suppose to be getting hit?" because in reality the tank is not always the one getting hit all the time. there's these things called aoe's plus the fact that tanks can and do loose aggro to high dps classes on a regular basis and they have very little defense of their own. furthermore since your hp buff is a group buff well guess what...if you'r grouped with another tank that's appointed as the mt then you are buffing his hp and im sure he appreciates it. does that bother you? "I'd give my HP buff up for a group haste or DPS buff in a HEARTBEAT." um correct me if i'm wrong but guardians do in fact get a group buff for offensive melee skills. you get that and the group hp buff too, among other things. so what's the problem? and the zerker group dps buff is proc based, not perma like yours is. Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-30-2005 03:35 PM

12-31-2005, 02:46 AM	#22
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	infernus006 wrote: "Cop-out? I don't think so." then what was the point of making a duplicate thread when you already had one started with this same exact topic? what else do you call it? it's only because someone posted there that didn't agree with you and you just can't take it. the funniest part is you pretty much even admitted that yourself. Becasue you derailed the first oje just like this one. I asked for an update fromSOE not a bezerker. I admitted what I think is right but I have no clue what your referencing here. Your a Bezerker that likes how things are now and refuse to see other people situations. "It's not my fault that I realized a long time ago that I will never compare in DPS and selected everything I wear based on AC and HP and totally ignore strength and agility." rofl how is that not your own fault? it was your choice to pick those stats was it not? and imo not a very smart one since str is the primary stat for all fighters, which includes guardians. that's something we were supposed to learn on the island. but anyway why don't you just do a respec and go all str if all you really care about is having more dps? but of course your dps is never going to be as good as other fighters because guardians are supposed to be the most defensive fighter in the game, right? there's no way you can really change that. and don't forget, pallies are the defensive version of the crusader class and they don't get very much dps either. sk's and zerkers get the most dps of all the plate tanks because we have less defense than pallies and guards. if you don't like that then what do you want then? do you want all the plate tanks to just have the exact same abilies and not have anything different or better or worse than the others? if so then what's the point of having 4 different classes of plate tank in the game? No, I saw that my DPS with even equal strength would be nothing compared to other fighters so I chose to not even try. You mention CA's for added DPS and I can assure you they make a HUGE difference. Guardians are NOT suppose to be the most defensive in the game. SOE specifically changed that with LU13. How hard is it for you to see that. Before LU13 we were the most defensive. Now we are not. All fighters tank equally well. Period. No discussion. No opinion. Just facts from SOE because SOE programs the game. You need to understand that. Guardians ARE NOT THE MOST DEFENSIVE TANK IN THE GAME. All fighters are equal tanks. I say it again, per SOE, all fighters are equal tanks. Equal. Equal. Equal... Just so you know, SOE says all fighters are equal tanks. Equal. Not one better than others. All are equal tanks. That was the whole puopse of LU13 for fighters. We are all equal. I don't know whay there are 4 plate classes. We are all different but we all tank EQUALLY WELL. The difference are in the DPS and Utility, NOT THE TANKING ABILITY. Do ya get it? Do you understand now? "Guardians wear the exact same armor, exact same jewelery, exact same shields and can use the exact same weapons as Bezerkers." that's right and since they can use all the same weapons they can get the exact same dps from their autoattack if they have the same str. zerkers just get more offensive ca's that do more damage and guards get a lot of defensive ones instead. is that so wrong? if you wanted to be able to do any real damage in this game then you shouldn't have picked the guardian as your class because it's just not their job to do any real damage. their job is to "protect", right? so that's the kind of skills they get. now if there's something wrong with your ability to do that then yes there is a problem that needs to be fixed, i will give you that. but i rather doubt that is the case and it's not like you get 0 dps either. if you have good enough str you should be able to solo mobs just as well as i can, it just might take you a bit longer. but so what, it takes me a lot longer to solo a mob than it takes a same-level bruiser to solo the exact same mob. but do i complain about it? no i don't because i appreciate having the extra defense that a bruiser does not have. More bull crap. With exact same equipment a Bezerker would be able to double or triple my DPS output even with me going allout in a DPS mode (2hander, DW Offensive stance). CA's do huge things to your DPS. There are parses in the Guardian forum where paladins out DPS us by 20-30% in offensive on raids and they are tossing heals. When I protect people I increase the actually damage my group takes. Also, I take the hit based on the AC of the person I'm protecting. It's not fun to have 8K HP on a raid and get one shooted becasue the caster got agro and you had them proetected. I have even been one shotted and the person I was protecting died also becasue I get 100% of the hit and they get anywhere from 25-50% of the hit (yes that does equal 125-150% of the hit) themselves. Fun isn't it. "Guardian mitigation is NOT higher than any other plate class, Guardian Avoidance is NOT higher than any other plate class." i don't see how that is true when every guard i inspect that has the same quality or even lesser quality gear than i have always has more mitigation and avoidance than me in the same stance, even ones that are several levels below me when i have more agi than them too. but am i complaining about it? no i am not because i know that i can do more dps than them and that's why i chose my class over theirs, because that's what i wanted and to be honest i am happy with it. We wear the same stuff and do not get a class AC upgrade. Your not inspecting the peoples equipment well enough to find the reason for yourself. Your not complaining about the faulty info you have becasue you can out DPS the Guardian by 3-4 to 1. "If you want to talk about advantages then why don't you go find the Moorgaurd post that actually states that avoidance tanks get higher percentages of avoidance to overbalance them to help make up for the negative perception that avoidance tanks have." well i wasn't even saying anything about avoidance fighters. i know moorguard plays a bruiser though, or at least that's what i've heard. and i don't think it's right if they are overpowered and they may very well be but even so it's still not really helping them as far as i can tell because there really is no possible way to make avoidance be as reliable as mitigation without making them totally impervious to taking any hits at all, which they simply cannot do. that's just the way it is and that's the main reason why most people prefer to have a plate tank be their mt and probably always will. even most brawlers i know prefer to have a plate tank be the mt in their groups. imo it doesn't really hurt them because they get almost the same dps as a scout and are probably the best soloers in the game. i have heard of brawlers soloing yellow con triple ups on a regular basis. can i do that? hell no i can't. but am i really complaining about it? no i am not. because i know that in reality i am still a better tank than them, or at least i think so. Your wrong. SOE specifically balanced all fighters for raid situations. Look at the caps on mitigation, how raid targets now address mitigation on the damage they do and how resists are key now. You'll see that for experiance groups avoidance wins out and for raid targets mitigation and avoidnace balance out to be equal. SOE did this so all fighters wuld be EQUAL. You say just below this that you do not dispute that all fighters are equal tanks but here you say they are not. "SOE has stated that all fighters now tank equally well." i am not disputing that. but you fail to see the point that the only reason we are able to tank as well as you is because we have extra abilites to make up for the lack of uber defensive abilites you have that make you such a good tank. zerkers get more melee dps, sk's get lifetaps, and pallies get direct heals. you get all sorts of ca's that prevent you and/or your groupmats from taking any damage at all, am i wrong about that? isn't that what makes the guardian class a "guardian"? "Now I will say that I can buff my HP by about 500-600 (400-500 of those are group HP's so everybody gets it). How does that help me when it takes me twice as long to kill something solo while it beats on me?" very simple...the more hp you have the more hits you can take therefore the longer you stay alive. In two sentences you say you agree we are equal tanks then say Guardians are better tanks. You my friend need to descide what you believe in. SOE has stated many time, over and over even, that all fighters are equal tanks. Period. I can buff myself for a max total of 511 HP. Yep. 511 HP can only help. I'll give ya that. "How does me having a group HP buff help when the tank is the only one suppose to be getting hit?" because in reality the tank is not always the one getting hit all the time. there's these things called aoe's plus the fact that tanks can and do loose aggro to high dps classes on a regular basis and they have very little defense of their own. furthermore since your hp buff is a group buff well guess what...if you'r grouped with another tank that's appointed as the mt then you are buffing his hp and im sure he appreciates it. does that bother you? I agree. 511 HP buff can only help. But about 120 of that is self only so it's probably closer to 400. "I'd give my HP buff up for a group haste or DPS buff in a HEARTBEAT." um correct me if i'm wrong but guardians do in fact get a group buff for offensive melee skills. you get that and the group hp buff too, among other things. so what's the problem? and the zerker group dps buff is proc based, not perma like yours is. Guardians get a group buff that ups the attack skill by 15 or so. Before LU13 this was HUGE for hitting high con mobs. Now it does almost nothing. All skill buffs were cut way back. The qhole reason Guardians were so good pre LU13 was that we had a group and self only Defense buff that HUGELY effected the rate a mob would hit us. All of that was changed. I'd still take a DPS or haste group buff over these ANY DAY. Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-30-200503:35 PM I'm just going to answer all your questions and comment in this thread. When your done I'll start another again that is clean. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-31-2005, 04:27 AM	#23
JuJut Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 143	Wasuna wrote: I'm just going to answer all your questions and comment in this thread. When your done I'll start another again that is clean. And I'll report that spam as well. And I'm sure that one will generate replies that disagree with you as well.

12-31-2005, 04:33 AM	#24
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	Opinion, opinion. Show me facts and numbers. If you want them for Guardians then just spend a couple of minutes onthe Guardian forum. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

12-31-2005, 04:34 AM	#25
infernus006 Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Location: NY, USA Posts: 863	"No, I saw that my DPS with even equal strength would be nothing compared to other fighters so I chose to not even try." then you have no right to complain that you have 0 dps. becuase you did not even try at all. you even admit that yourself. so you have no one to blame for that but yourself. but the reason you did not try you are saying is because you think it wouldn't matter. well you are wrong. every little bit of everything matters in this game. but yeah you are never going to have equal dps with the offensive tanks when you are a defensive tank that gets more defense than an offensive tank does. it's a very simple and understandable concept. but that doesn't mean you should totally ignore the potential that you do have to be able to do some dps with your class. so imo it would probably be better for you to get as much str as you can so you can do more dps since you already have so much defense stuff that comes with your class anyway. why in gods name did you choose all defensive traits on a purely defensive class and then start crying about the fact that you have virtually no dps because of it? rofl "The difference are in the DPS and Utility, NOT THE TANKING ABILITY. Do ya get it?" no you are the one who still does not get it. we do not get extra dps in addition to equal tanking ability like you are saying. that is not how it works. they are not two totally separate things like that. listen...our dps is FACTORED IN with our tanking ability. that is the way soe made it, they said so themselves. and this is what i have been trying to tell you all along. we RELY on our dps to help us keep aggro and burn mobs down faster because we can't take as much damage as you and we get less taunts. that is a fact. and that's the whole point of being an offensive tank instead of a defensive one and that's the whole point that you are missing. and you also need to understand that i have nothing at all against guardians. like i said before i think they are fine tanks. i do not wish for them to gimped at all. in fact i've even been thinking about making one myself after they do the patch that changes the islands. i also like having them as my mt when i play my level 30 wizard alt. Message Edited by infernus006 on 12-30-2005 06:55 PM

12-31-2005, 05:35 AM	#26
Chog General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 475	Wasuna, Guardians are better tanks then other plate tanks. They do have more health, more defense (and avoidance because of the defense), and an easier time landing hits in defensive stance. How great the divide is can be argued; however, Guardians are better tanks then other plate tanks. Guardians receive buffs that help them to tank, just like other classes recieve combat arts to do more damage. It is a trade off. Mind you I am not saying Guardians can not be upgraded in some way, just stating that Guardians are better tanks. Call of Defense This increases the defense of the group. Because of this spell Guardians have higher defense then any other fighter. Call to War Increases the offensive skills. Know how all Fighters complain they miss a lot more while in Defensive stance? Guardians are able to land more blows in defensive then any other Fighter because of this. Steely Conviction Self stamina buff. This allows the Guardian to have more health then other fighters even if in the same group. Return to Battle Group health buff. This allows the Guardian to have more health then any other Fighter. Guardians also get the 30 second mitigation buffs (Berserkers get a few as well, I do not know about other fighters). So when people state that Guardians have more health, more defense, more avoidance (this is only because of the more defense though), and more mitigation they are talking about the defensive buffs available to the Guardian over the Offensive buffs other's get. __________________ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina

12-31-2005, 11:59 AM	#27
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	Guards arn't the best tank, they arn't the worst tank, all tanks as far as tanking goes are real close if geared with the same level eqpt. The def come from utils, some say the utils are ok some say they are not. Its mostly just in the opinion of the player. I wouldn't mind having more DPS to help hold agro or so solo a bit better but it seems all plate tanks are having this issue no that pallys got hit with a nerf bat.With the right buffs any of the fighter line can tank real close, It just depends on the buffs and class stacking. Go out side the box.IMO the real imballance is the ratio of power used to maintain agro to vs the power used for DPS. It takes way to much power to keep agro of just mardernt dps. Don't get me wrong I do think agro should be lost if a DPS goes all out. But I do also think agro should be able to be regained if said DPSer quits attacking and the tank taunt 2 or 3 times. Rescue should be 100% none resistable with its timer. Any way blah blah blah, this is what has made the game lose most of its luster for me. If I am always out of power and every one else is 85 to 90% power, It makes me feel I am holding the group back and I am. This puts undue stress on the tank player as he has to worry about his power usage more so then the good of the group. That just MO and I am sure yours is not the same. Message Edited by Landiin on 12-31-2005 01:01 AM __________________

12-31-2005, 07:36 PM	#28
Tanit General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 611	Landiin wrote: Guards arn't the best tank, they arn't the worst tank, all tanks as far as tanking goes are real close if geared with the same level eqpt. The def come from utils, some say the utils are ok some say they are not. Its mostly just in the opinion of the player. I wouldn't mind having more DPS to help hold agro or so solo a bit better but it seems all plate tanks are having this issue no that pallys got hit with a nerf bat. It's only close when fighting heroic mobs, since those are very weak. Even scouts can tank those. __________________ Tethra of Xanadu - Runnyeye. Xanadu Raid Loot Database

01-02-2006, 02:15 PM	#29
Taishi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 19	Ok I hate joining the bandwagon of other people saying your complaining but you really are overreacting to the situation at hand. I myself have a 52 guardian as my alt and he does out perform any other tank class at doing his job which is tanking. I understand that it makes you angry not being able to solo anything big but to be honest the class you are playing is not intended to do that anyway. Most people stopped playing guardians after the combat updates cause they couldn't go soloing any heroic mob they wanted. Pre-combat changes guardians could out solo any class and now they can't which where I think youre trying to change . To be honest I don't see any real problems with overall playability for which the class is intended. The only thing I would actually like to see in a guardian as a change is a mild dps increase or a self haste like we used to have to to give a bit better of a chance to solo more efficiently. If you want to see changes you have to be realistic. You're asking for an all in one player the equivalent of the guardians pre-combat changes and it won't happen. As for our buffs we are built to tank and we can take more dmg than any other class. We have a short reuse rescue that no other class has. We have hp, stamina, mitigation, strong taunts, and an all around solid set up for grouping and raiding. Just because we can't beat the [Removed for Content] out of a mob doesn't mean that we suck. Just my 2 cp on it. __________________ 70 Conjuror 63 Jeweler Socius of The Last Word Innobone Server 54 Guardian

01-02-2006, 04:57 PM	#30
diamondma Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 261	the power issue really isnt a class problem tbh its mostly because alot of mobs specially nameds drain power now. and for the guy crying about guardians being unbalanced u should look at the major raiding guilds across all the servers. i can say that 90% of them have guardians in their mt group on raids wether they are tanking or not. dont cry about ur class being broken i think the major issue is that guards went from being uber almost untouchable tanks with the right buffs to being even with the rest of the crew. quit cryin or reroll its that simple.