Taunt

[Johnd]

After my last tread I had a clear idea about us guardians. We want to tank. We love to be bashed. And most importantly, we don't want others to be punched, smacked, killed or gutted.

As SoE wants us all to be equal tanks, have some hold back there. We don't want to be the only tank that can function well. But we also don't want to be the least populair.

 

What we lack is the skills to put us next to all the fighters. We have to stop looking at what they have more then us, but need to figure out what we lack. Personally I think its agro gain and agro holding. In a team I don't get smashed to bits by every monster. My migitation is fine and a bit weak vs casters, but can't have it all

 

I would like to see a better taunt system. I am sure there are various ways to accomplish that. But my small brains can't come up with every possible way. I would like to build up a sum of "ways to taunt".

 

So far I read quiet a few ideas on the boards here wich I will sum up. The other ideas that are offered should stay free from flames or negative talk. Feel free to enhance somebodies idea or use it to make an improved idea. But don't try to break it down cause you think it stinks. The worst idea still has a right to live so to say. Also don't start up a discussion with the poster of a idea. It will make a mess of the tread and the main idea will drown in it.

 

The ideas

- give more damage output ( no, don't comment on it

- fix the HTL line. It works by getting hit, but guardians get crazy avoidance

- increase the hategain the static buffs give

 

but also think in new lines. More group taunts to make us kings of group control, hategain by group members losing hp, hate by own hp's lost, a buff that gives us all the hate that a teammember creates... etc etc. Pass your point in the tread ( only about taunting). I will sum them up and put your name behind it as reference.

 

 

[Tro]

Although I appreciate your efforts I can say you are wasting your time. Moorgard has already stated they are happy with the way the fighters are playing out post LU13. He did indicate there would be some minor tweaks here and there but for the most part, What we have is what we have..

 

The whole maintaining aggro issue to me is possibly a misunderstanding of what the real problem is. Some (Not all) Guards that are consistently having problems holding aggro might not understand how maintaining aggro has changed post LU13.

 

I can tell you from first hand experience that there are times I lose aggro to other group members but these to me are more uncommon then common. At first I kept thinking it was me that was the problem (Me meaning the Guardian class).

 

After reading these boards after LU13 I realized that things simply are not like they use to be. Pre LU13, we just had to mash a couple taunts here and there and we held aggro pretty darn good. Post LU 13, we have to work a bit harder to keep the mob on us but with the additional requirement that the whole group must do their part to keep the mob on the tank. Yes thats right, everyone in the group needs to do their part in keeping the mob on the tank..

 

I have been in groups where no one understood this and we had constant ping ponging and folks dying. I have also been in groups where eveyone understood this  and I rarely lost aggro.

 

The Guard can be doing all they can do to maintain aggro but if nuker "A" is going all out from the onset of the battle then they WILL get beat on. If that happens consistently throughout the groups life, that will result in more power used by the healer/Tank than needed which results in more downtime between fights and that equates to less exp over time.

 

Also, having all your taunts at the ADEPT III level actually makes a difference now.  Yes ADEPT III's actually do something now.. I upgraded all mine at the same time and I can tell there was a noticable difference in maintaining aggro but ofcourse most any class can get aggro no matter what I do if they dont understand how it works now.

  

Anyway, when I get in a group and I am the MT, I make sure they all understand this.. I still, however, get the occasional "W-T-F? it's you job to keep the mob on you not ours.. You are the tank afterall.. our job is to inflict damage" or something stupid like that.. it's sad i tell you..

Message Edited by Trook on 01-09-200604:38 AM

[craized warrior]

as i see it the problem is:

we need to use lots more power to keep agro than the rest of the grp do to do thier job, therefore at the end of a fight the guardian is at 40% power and the rest of the grp are at 60-80% power, we slow the grp down as they need to wait for us to regain our power, we are a liability on the grp in this way.

i think along with some changes being made to how agro works, it should be taken into consideration how much power keeping agro entails.

[Pry]

I am still insistant that the problems that everyone is experiencing here are not necessarily due to problems with the Guardian class itself, but the combat system and the archtype system as a whole.  Let's examine why that is (because I have an empirical mind and cannot help myself).

SOE Logic:

Nerf Archtype #1 ---->  Give Archtype abilities from #1 to #2 ----> Give utility to #1 that will make #2-12 better for compensation. --->  This will make Archtype #1 more wanted in groups ---->  Class balance has been achieved.

Reality:

Nerf Archtype #1 ---->  Nerf Handcrafted Gear ----> Force Archtype #1 to join raid guilds so they can get gear that will allow them to tank in normal groups ----> Make it so that  #1 can only perform only secondary roles if they do raid.  ----> In turn, take away #1's ability to solo and PvP.  ---->  Thus nerfing their ability to do quests ---->  In turn make the group enhancing skills work sporatically ---->  So that class #1 won't get groups --->  Therefore nerfing class #1 to an unplayable state.

As long as people only see SOE Logic, this is the way it will always be, so no point in arguing about it really.

[Ladicav]

Personally I like to increase my mitigation and avoidance wherever I can get it. The higher the better. Makes for a much much better damage curve than someone who only concentrates on mitigation.

But then when I raise avoidance my HTL hate generation suffers. Co-incidence?

You work it out. It's easy to just blame the group, but this is also one of the Guardians most inherent flaws.

Imagine being penalised just because you want to raise avoidance.

[Tro]

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Ladicav wrote:

Personally I like to increase my mitigation and avoidance wherever I can get it. The higher the better. Makes for a much much better damage curve than someone who only concentrates on mitigation.

But then when I raise avoidance my HTL hate generation suffers. Co-incidence?

You work it out. It's easy to just blame the group, but this is also one of the Guardians most inherent flaws.

Imagine being penalised just because you want to raise avoidance.

---

No it's not a co-incidence.. We are mitigation tanks not avoidance tanks.. yea we can raise our avoidance but I chose not to soley for the fact that when I have Inflaming defense up, I want it to proc as much as possible. Any chance I get to raise my Mitigation I go for it. Avoidance is something I do not worry about.  

My group scenerio I gave above plays out alot more than you may think.. There are still folks out there that have no clue how the new system works therefore taking aggro much more than they should be. It's that simple. I'm not just saying this to say it.. I have seen it many many times. Both extremes I have seen. The ones that understand how it works dont take aggro and that results in a more efficient group allowing fast kills and fast exp.   

I do understand some guards have problems keeping aggro.. I am just saying that from what I have experienced, most of the time it's ignorance thats the problem, not the Guardian.

Another factor (IMO) with aggro is resisted taunts.. This to me is a flaw and needs to be addressed. They should just get rid of resisted taunts across the board for all fighters. The hate generation and power lost because of resisted taunts is something folks can do without. I still to this day do not understand why resisted taunts were ever implemented.

Message Edited by Trook on 01-10-200603:35 AM

[blueduckie]

Great post trook. Only thing i am indifferent on is taunt resists. I like the randomness but hurts my feelings none at all if it would happen to being changed to taunts never being resisted. I love the challenge of how far our dps can go with out peeling on my aggro if that is achieved with out resists cool but with debuffs i see resists being a non issue but it also makes you les bot feel and oh crap i did same thing as normal but peeled or having a pre buff ward on a group of mobs half of them being resisted so shaman gets aggro on all resisted lol. I kinda enjoy that somtimes tbh =p but i get what your frustration in it as weve all been frustrated from the effect of resisted taunts im sure.

[Tro]

Yea the resisted taunt thing has been a sore spot for me.. Not so much at first but as time went on It seemed the initial pull / taunt got resisted more times than not and that to me is the most important taunt (or taunts) for each fight.

It's not too bad if the group is doing a great job of DPS management but for those that don't, it gets very frustrating. I know some Guards like the additional challange of resisted taunts.. I for one feel that now with the combat revamp/LU13 changes, the game is much more challanging and I do enjoy battle and find it much more challanging but again the resisted taunts just don't make any sense to me.

I use to hate all those Stifles and stuns on pull but my wife (59 Temp) has her Stun/Stifle/Fear/Charm immunity spell (Sanctuary?) so it's not half as bad as before.

 Hated pulling and immeidately getting stunned/stifled.. That makes it very hard to keep the mob on ya no matter what.

Later!

[Drulak]

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Trook wrote:

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Ladicav wrote:

Personally I like to increase my mitigation and avoidance wherever I can get it. The higher the better. Makes for a much much better damage curve than someone who only concentrates on mitigation.

But then when I raise avoidance my HTL hate generation suffers. Co-incidence?

You work it out. It's easy to just blame the group, but this is also one of the Guardians most inherent flaws.

Imagine being penalised just because you want to raise avoidance.

---

No it's not a co-incidence.. We are mitigation tanks not avoidance tanks.. yea we can raise our avoidance but I chose not to soley for the fact that when I have Inflaming defense up, I want it to proc as much as possible. Any chance I get to raise my Mitigation I go for it. Avoidance is something I do not worry about.  

My group scenerio I gave above plays out alot more than you may think.. There are still folks out there that have no clue how the new system works therefore taking aggro much more than they should be. It's that simple. I'm not just saying this to say it.. I have seen it many many times. Both extremes I have seen. The ones that understand how it works dont take aggro and that results in a more efficient group allowing fast kills and fast exp.   

I do understand some guards have problems keeping aggro.. I am just saying that from what I have experienced, most of the time it's ignorance thats the problem, not the Guardian.

Another factor (IMO) with aggro is resisted taunts.. This to me is a flaw and needs to be addressed. They should just get rid of resisted taunts across the board for all fighters. The hate generation and power lost because of resisted taunts is something folks can do without. I still to this day do not understand why resisted taunts were ever implemented.

Message Edited by Trook on 01-10-200603:35 AM

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I agree that we are miti tanks and so shouldn't have to have the best avoidance ,  But in reality the better avoidance we have = get hit less = less aggro from inflaming defense.

Yes there is alot of good group members and alot of bad .  Good ones mean no matter what , you will generally keep aggro - bad means the opposite.

BUT  better avoidance = less damage taken = better for the group ,  so why should that be conflicting with our aggro generation.

No other tank in game has to way up avoid or miti to increase their aggro generation , so why do we.

[Tro]

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Drulak wrote:

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I agree that we are miti tanks and so shouldn't have to have the best avoidance ,  But in reality the better avoidance we have = get hit less = less aggro from inflaming defense.

Yes there is alot of good group members and alot of bad .  Good ones mean no matter what , you will generally keep aggro - bad means the opposite.

BUT  better avoidance = less damage taken = better for the group ,  so why should that be conflicting with our aggro generation.

No other tank in game has to way up avoid or miti to increase their aggro generation , so why do we.

---

Yes I agree that isn't right.. My fear is that it will never change though.. The dev's seem happy with the way things are working out with the fighters.. I just dont see them changing the way avoidance affects the proc rate for the HTL series.  

I chose not to up my avoidance soley because it affects the proc rate of inflaming defense. I try to think of how they could correct this or "Improve" it but the bottom line is for ID to proc, we have to be hit. Until they find a different way to engineer this, we are stuck with it.

Maybe they could change it to a DoT type of hate generation. Get hit, proc goes off adding 323 hate every 4 seconds for 20 seconds or something like that i guess..      /shrug.

Ofcourse the ward problem would be an issue and any of the DoT hits getting resisted would also suck.

Just a thought.

 

[Wabit]

just a few questions for those that say they don't like avoidance...  do you bother to have call of defence on in your maintained buffs???  all that does is raise avoidance...  or on the char traits did you pick the +5 defence???  do you tell the warden in your group not to cast sandstorm???  do you use your vigilance line at all???

Wabit

 

[Ladicav]

I'm jaded with all the anecdotal evidence and everyones personal opinions on Guardians only really needing mitigation to be effective, anecdotes and opinions are often clouded by selective memories and emotion, not clear logic and experimentation.

 

Since numbers don't really lie, I am curious to know where the truth actually lies. So far I have been doing some parsing lately, trying to keep mitigation constant and wildy adjusting my avoidance.

 

Still got lots of parsing left to do for adjusting other variables. Once I am finished I may collate the results and post them in some kind of readable manner.

 

If I am feeling conciliatory.

Message Edited by Ladicav on 01-11-200610:41 PM

[Drulak]

TBH i cannot believe that anyone could prove that it is better to have lower avoidance.   even if it makes you hold aggro better , surely the main thing about tank is to take as little as damage as possible.  OK before the wisecracks , if other group members are getting hit , you are taking less damage.   But forget how our broken HTL works .  the basic premise is do everything you can to get hit as few times as possible and also take as little damge from the hits that do land.

It is just madness to have to lower avoidance , in order to increase aggro.  It would be like a boxer letting his opponent hit him as much as possible , but hoping his sterdy neck shrugs off the blows so he doesn't get knocked out.

[Wabit]

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Drulak wrote:

It is just madness to have to lower avoidance , in order to increase aggro.  It would be like a boxer letting his opponent hit him as much as possible , but hoping his sterdy neck shrugs off the blows so he doesn't get knocked out.

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it worked for Rocky against Mr T :smileysurprised:

Wabit

[Krooner]

Ummm Yeah .. Ok who wants to try and Rope-a-dope an EPIC.... ummm hands anyone ... thought so.:smileytongue:

[Ladicav]

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Drulak wrote:

TBH i cannot believe that anyone could prove that it is better to have lower avoidance.   even if it makes you hold aggro better , surely the main thing about tank is to take as little as damage as possible.  OK before the wisecracks , if other group members are getting hit , you are taking less damage.   But forget how our broken HTL works .  the basic premise is do everything you can to get hit as few times as possible and also take as little damge from the hits that do land.

It is just madness to have to lower avoidance , in order to increase aggro.  It would be like a boxer letting his opponent hit him as much as possible , but hoping his sterdy neck shrugs off the blows so he doesn't get knocked out.

---

This has been my point all along. I'm glad some people actually see past the rhetoric and appreciate that avoidance is also part of the Guardians overall defence package.

And having to give up defence to increase the chances of HTL proccing, is asinine at best and just plain broken at worst.

 

Message Edited by Ladicav on 01-12-200609:49 PM

[Tro]

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Drulak wrote:

TBH i cannot believe that anyone could prove that it is better to have lower avoidance.   even if it makes you hold aggro better , surely the main thing about tank is to take as little as damage as possible.  OK before the wisecracks , if other group members are getting hit , you are taking less damage.   But forget how our broken HTL works .  the basic premise is do everything you can to get hit as few times as possible and also take as little damge from the hits that do land.

It is just madness to have to lower avoidance , in order to increase aggro.  It would be like a boxer letting his opponent hit him as much as possible , but hoping his sterdy neck shrugs off the blows so he doesn't get knocked out.

---

First off, Group members getting hit is not the way it should be. We as guardians need to do what we can to PREVENT that.. Granted we cannot control ones DPS out put or lack of restraint when fighting and pulling aggro but you make it sound like it is "ok" for a group member gets hit as it "Helps" the tank take less damage.

And If said Tank was an avoidance type tank then what you say may be true but Guards are primarily a mitigation tank with CA's tha tproc hate when we GET HIT!

Now, the way I see it, we as "Mitigation" Tanks, take the damage the target is dishing out so the rest of the group can kill it.. we "Mitigate" the damage taken with each hit.. and as an extra added plus, we have the HTL series of CA's that proc hate when we GET HIT so we can do our job better WRT keeping the targets attention on us.

The fact that higher avoidance directly affects the proc rate of the HTL series of CA's is flawed.. It's that smiple.. And I agree it is just "Madness" to have lower avoidance to increase aggro but thats the way it is at the moment for us Guards anyway..

If the HTL proc went off when the Target Missed then alot of guards would have higher avoidnace (I would for sure).. Until this gets fixed, I for one will do whatever I can to not increase my innate avoidance.

 

[Drulak]

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Trook wrote:

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Drulak wrote:

TBH i cannot believe that anyone could prove that it is better to have lower avoidance.   even if it makes you hold aggro better , surely the main thing about tank is to take as little as damage as possible.  OK before the wisecracks , if other group members are getting hit , you are taking less damage.   But forget how our broken HTL works .  the basic premise is do everything you can to get hit as few times as possible and also take as little damge from the hits that do land.

It is just madness to have to lower avoidance , in order to increase aggro.  It would be like a boxer letting his opponent hit him as much as possible , but hoping his sterdy neck shrugs off the blows so he doesn't get knocked out.

---

First off, Group members getting hit is not the way it should be. We as guardians need to do what we can to PREVENT that.. Granted we cannot control ones DPS out put or lack of restraint when fighting and pulling aggro but you make it sound like it is "ok" for a group member gets hit as it "Helps" the tank take less damage.

And If said Tank was an avoidance type tank then what you say may be true but Guards are primarily a mitigation tank with CA's tha tproc hate when we GET HIT!

Now, the way I see it, we as "Mitigation" Tanks, take the damage the target is dishing out so the rest of the group can kill it.. we "Mitigate" the damage taken with each hit.. and as an extra added plus, we have the HTL series of CA's that proc hate when we GET HIT so we can do our job better WRT keeping the targets attention on us.

The fact that higher avoidance directly affects the proc rate of the HTL series of CA's is flawed.. It's that smiple.. And I agree it is just "Madness" to have lower avoidance to increase aggro but thats the way it is at the moment for us Guards anyway..

If the HTL proc went off when the Target Missed then alot of guards would have higher avoidnace (I would for sure).. Until this gets fixed, I for one will do whatever I can to not increase my innate avoidance.

 

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HEHE trook , i was stating that about group members getting hit before i got a wisecrack from someone else saying that.  

 I stated  "the main thing about tank is to take as little as damage as possible"  and i expected a troll to come back and say if others are getting hit then the tank is taking as little damage as possible. So i pre-empted that by stating  "OK before the wisecracks , if other group members are getting hit , you are taking less damage.   But "

The point was after the BUT not before , that was to try and stop people being clever

[Tro]

Ok got ya.. it's till early here...

Later!

[Eet]

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Trook wrote:

The fact that higher avoidance directly affects the proc rate of the HTL series of CA's is flawed.. It's that smiple.. And I agree it is just "Madness" to have lower avoidance to increase aggro but thats the way it is at the moment for us Guards anyway..

If the HTL proc went off when the Target Missed then alot of guards would have higher avoidnace (I would for sure).. Until this gets fixed, I for one will do whatever I can to not increase my innate avoidance.

---

I don't see the flaw. It's not the only guardian dynamic where tanking ability can be traded for increased agro generation. We hold better agro when not in defensive stance. Just because our two specialties are damage mitigation and controlling agro doesn't mean they can or should be maxed at the same time.

 

If you need to lower your avoidance to be able to hold agro, there's something wrong with your CA order, or your CA's aren't upgraded enough.

 

We are mitigation tanks, not avoidance tanks.

[Ladicav]

Do me a favour. Find your favorite parser, strip as much agility as you can by swapping gear out, go dual wield and in offensive stance. Attempt to get your avoidance down to the lowest you possibly can without losing too much mitigation.

Then, go find a low blue con mob and stand in front of it and just let it hit you. You will not last more than 2 - 3 minutes before you are close to death. Parse its DPS on you.

Then, put all your regular gear on again, go into normal stance, get your avoidance back to your average figure and repeat the test. Parse that DPS and compare.

Do the same for a white con and again for a yellow. You will be surprised how fast they will tear strips of you with lowest avoidance.

Then come back again and tell me Guardians need nothing else but mitigation. I have parsed this so far, because I am getting tired of peoples untested and unproven opinions. Your final comment, I am sorry, is incorrect. Our main focus is mitigation, but to ignore avoidance is to your detriment. Your avoidance and your mitigation make up your total survivability as a combined package. Mitigation alone is not going to save you.

Don't take my word for it, test it for yourself.

Message Edited by Ladicav on 01-13-200606:36 PM

[Wabit]

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Ladicav wrote:

Do me a favour. Find your favorite parser, strip as much agility as you can by swapping gear out, go dual wield and in offensive stance. Attempt to get your avoidance down to the lowest you possibly can without losing too much mitigation.

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eh, just take off all your rightside gear + belt + bow...  make sure you have you /yell key on the hotbar :smileywink: ...

but Ladicav is correct its the total package mit + avoid that makes us able to tank...

Wabit

[Eet]

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Ladicav wrote:

Then come back again and tell me Guardians need nothing else but mitigation.

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I never said that.

We are "mitigation tanks", as brawlers are "avoidance tanks". It doesn't mean we can ignore avoidance, nor can brawlers ignore mitigation.

My point was that a CA that works more effectively with lower avoidance is not necessarily broken.

[Ladicav]

So then why do the avoidance tanks, not suffer less agro generation efficiency if they increase mitigation? Actually why also don't the Paladins and Shadowknights also not suffer  less efficiency in agro generation if they increase both their avoidance and mitigation as well?

Why are Guardians the fighter that are faced with this issue? This is independant of the quality of the CA's.

[Eet]

Berserker HTL works the same way as ours. Shadowknights have a buff that generates agro every time they are hit. It's not just a guardian issue, and IMO should be at the bottom of the list of what guardians want looked at.