Thoughts from a Raid Tank

[Kho]

Without even going into how utterly STUPID it was to reformat an entire game a year into it, I am going to post my feelings on how Sony has totally butchered Guardians.  This comes from someone who is in full fabled raid gear, has vast experience with all pre-expansion encounters in the game, et cetera.

 

Problem 1)  MITIGATION IS USELESS.  I may as well be wearing full very light armor for as well as I am tanking these days, it is just immensely stupid when you can't tell one small bit of difference having heros armor or not having heros armor, mobs hit for EXACTLY the same.  Why exaclty should we be playing the game if a character in full ebon tanks as well as one in full fabled?

Problem 2)  LACK OF ANYTHING SPECIAL FOR GUARDIANS.  No FD, no lifetap, no self heals like pallies get, not even a decent amount of dps like berserkers, what the hell are we supposed to be doing besides getting the crap beat out of us by anything and everything?  I guess nothing.

Problem 3)  Far too many hp and mitigation effects were removed (not like mitigation matters anyway).  The removal of our hp stacking buffs, as well as the removal of mitigation on jewelry all contributes to us sucking more and more.  Also, our self buffs have been made BAD.  IF Mitigation worked correctly, we would have about 60 seconds of potential survival before our buffs dropped and we died, but since it doesn't it's pointless. 

Problem 4)  All classes have been way overnerfed.  Just a horrendous side affect of altering EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME.  All characters generally suck at this time, mobs have huge advantages over just about everyone, and there is no system in place to allow characters to undo this situation.  Mitiigation, resists, avoidance, are all broken horribly.  As if this weren't bad enough, they went a step further on 9-21 and made mobs EVEN BETTER than they were before.  Good luck hitting anything that is a high con to you, it ain't gonna happen.  I see A LOT OF FRUSTRATION GOING AROUND, and it is well earned frustration, as Sony really blew it, this whole thing could have been avoided by not totally changing a perfectly fine game that worked to make it horribly frustrating and seemingly pointless at this point, as nothing beyond killing blue mobs is gonna make you tank any better.

[TanRaistlyn]

I agree with everything posted here, in its current state Mitigation seems completely worthless which is what almost every Guard in here is complaining about.  With my 600mitigation 30 second buff up, damage im taking for a mob goes from 1300damage (cyclops in PoF0 to about 1230 damage...[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I increase my mitigation by like 25percent and damage I receive goes down like NOTHING??

PLEASE fix this, its MISERABLE as it now stands...

 

Covenant

[Raahl]

Good post.

Not coming from a raid environment I cannot argue with you.

#1 is the biggest one I am seeing.

Not all classes got the nerf bat.  Some came out alot better than they were pre-patch.

[Rekl]

An additional, major problem, that I haven't seen mentioned much is the increase in mobs that use magic/elemental based melee.

 

These totally ignore physical mitigation, but not avoidance.  Discounting the special resist each class gets from its defensive stance; any tank can be buffed with the same amount of + magical resistance.  Thus, why have a plate class, of any kind, tank something where only avoidance counts.  The monks have every advantage on those mobs, pretty much every advantage in an experience group and are at least equal tanks on physical mitigation mobs... not to mention swarms of the mobs where a 360 degree parry arc may prove more useful than all the mitigation in the world (given the cap).

 

Lastly I have to echo the concerns that mitigation seems to do almost nothing.  Admittingly I don't know exactly how it works... IE if 75% mitigation means directly that a mob can only hit for 75% of it's max on atuoattack or with specials, or str/class bonus etc... or what... But it seems from playing that the old EQ1 base hit formula is being used and mitigation is only being applied to either the base or the interval of the hit.  Resulting in increased mitigation giving incredibly marginal returns.  It's a total guess of course... That's just what it feels like after experiencing it for 5 years in EQ1.

 

*edit* Oh, and as something I forgot to mention... and maybe it's been discussed here before but; Why did every single other class that gains a defensive buff have theirs' doubled in the amount of defense it increases, while the guardian "call of protection" line remained the same despite the reduced effectiveness of a single, static point of defense skill (staying at the 10-13 it always had).

Message Edited by Reklaw on 09-23-2005 12:54 AM

[ThramFalc]

MItigation matters a lot more than defense.

The problem is that most all armor, stats and skills mean very little now.  The whole game is based on the con of the enemy.  Everyone is basically the same within their class no matter how much effort they put into it.  If your class happens to be one of the ones that got the shaft (and Guardians are at the top of that list), then there just isn't a whole lot anyone can do about it.

[TanRaistlyn]

Guild leader, and Guild MT, and Try as I might I just cant bring myself to grind this guy upwards...A dev acknowledgement to our woes would go a long way in making me not cancel my account....Please is anyone listening??

 

Covenant

[Greyform]

---

Raahl wrote:

Good post.

Not coming from a raid environment I cannot argue with you.

#1 is the biggest one I am seeing.

Not all classes got the nerf bat.  Some came out alot better than they were pre-patch.

---

It does seem like some classes came out way ahead after the patch, also seems like they spend a lot of time here telling us that there is no problem.

I do agree with the poster who said some feedback from a game developer would be very helpful. I am not sure yet, I do like my toons a lot I hate to think the last year building them was wasted.

But I did build a warrior in EQ1 who was an MT in a time guild and was able to walk away from that toon when the game just got to be to much of a grind. I truly fear the day when AA points are introduced into EQ2 lol I hate grinding.

any how please fix our mitigation and taunt (if anyone is listening).

[TanRaistlyn]

Amazing those classes are in here telling us to sit down and shut up isnt it?? Apparently they are allowed to complain about Guards being best tanks for the last 12 months but we cant raise or voices when we get shafted, and thrown in the useless bin...

Covenant

[Mentin]

---

Without even going into how utterly STUPID it was to reformat an entire game a year into it,

---

That is hardly the best way to start a constructive post that Sony will bother to read

 

50% of the whine posts on this board whine about guardian abilities being nerfed, this or that ability nerfed. Guys and gals, it does not matter. Since the entire system has been retuned, including the mobs, the fact that we lost xx hp or yy attack or zz mitigation compared to the old system is irrelevant.

 

What matter is how the guardian class is balanced in the new system compared to mobs and compared to other classes.

 

I do see one major issue currently: Guardians no longer have a significant tanking advantage, we are lowest in dps and we have very little utility. So why play a guardian?

[Gladesman]

---

Mentin wrote:

 

I do see one major issue currently: Guardians no longer have a significant tanking advantage, we are lowest in dps and we have very little utility. So why play a guardian?

---

And that is exactly how I feel. The fact that other classes can tank now as well is not the problem.. the problem lies in the fact that tanking was and is all guardians could ever do. We sucked our lack of DPS and lack of utility up BECAUSE we had the advantage on tanking. And this is why I do not understand that SOE didn't give us at last an increase in DPS and utility when the revamp came along: they knew they were giving all the other fighter classes a boost in tanking ability [whole purpose of the "balancing", yeah?], whilst when the game came out their sole purpose wasn't tanking and they already had other abilities.

 

The below roughly sets it out:

 

Pre-revamp:

Monk/Bruiser: DPS +++ / utility +++ / tank +

Paladin: tank ++ / healing-utility +++ / DPS +

Berserker: DPS +++ / tank ++1/2 [berserkers have always been excellent tanks already, just not AS good as guardians, hence the ++1/2]

SK: utility ++ / DPS ++ / tank ++

Guardian: tank +++ / DPS +

 

Post-revamp:

Monk/Bruiser: tank ++ / DPS +++ / utility +++

Paladin: tank ++ / healing-utility +++ / DPS +

Berserker: tank ++1/2 / DPS +++

SK: tank ++ / utility ++ / DPS ++

Guardian: tank ++1/2 :smileywink: / DPS +

 

Give or take a + here and there it is really quite obvious that for everyday Norrathian life there's just no need to have a guardian around anymore. With the rebranding of the fighter archetype to tank archetype guardians lost their one and only edge over the other classes rendering the class superfluous and not worth playing. Sad but true.

[LordIronfist]

Out of a lot of posts here I see only 2 that are really constructive. Mentin:s and Gladesman:s posts actually ackowledge that there was to big of a gap preDof making them overpowered or at least the #1 tank above all others.

They do not only do that, they come with suggestions how to fix issues that have risen when dof came alive.

LOTSA creds to you 2!!!

Keep those posts coming and u guys will have a bright future to look forward to imo. :smileyhappy:

 

//Lord Ironfist

PS. Before u start ranting this post. I am NOT a bruiser/monk!!! DS.

[Gladesman]

---

LordIronfist wrote:

Out of a lot of posts here I see only 2 that are really constructive. Mentin:s and Gladesman:s posts actually ackowledge that there was to big of a gap preDof making them overpowered or at least the #1 tank above all others.

---

We were the best tanks because we had nothing else going for us. There's a difference in perception.. guardians were never overpowered just because we were the best tanks Tanking is NOT everything in EQ2 - tanking a mob doesn't kill it nor does it heal any damage done nor does it do anything for adds and on and on!

 

I never believed anybody else but warriors (so berserkers and guardians), and to a lesser extent crusaders, should be considered 'real' tanks. Sure, brawlers should be able to tank better than scouts, but that's not the main purpose of their class.. or so I believed and still believe

 

But SOE and the brawlers believed something else and the revamp came along. Now, arguing to hell and back about exactly which of the fighter classes should be THE tank is moot, because the reality is that SOE wanted all fighters to be able to tank on an almost equal level - give or take a few %.  

 

Even if guardians become the best tank again (even by a landslide!), this still wouldn't do anything for me and my guardian right now, because brawlers can STILL tank all the non-epic content AND do DPS AND have all these utility skills. Yes, I would be MT at every single raid, but will that make my class more fun to play? No. Will that make me able to kill solo mobs efficiently? No. Will that make me a desired class for normal exp groups? No. Will this make it so that ANYBODY would consider taking more than 1 guardian in a raidforce? No.

 

I loved being MT for my guild and it's not as if I would be happy if I never got to tank again.. but tanking isn't everything and I will be just as happy standing behind Drayek while a crusader or brawler tanks him, as long as I'm dishing out 300+ DPS or can use any utility/buff skills worth mentioning. 

[Raahl]

The players picked the guardian class because we were tanks, plain and simple.  We stood there and took the damage.  We wear plate armor and use a big shield.  We defend the party by keeping the mobs on us.   We didn't pick them because of their utility or DPS. 

 

 

[Urglu]

I have a high lvl Guard (main) and Bruiser (alt).  I have goten used to the tanking equalization, but right now I have 2 complaints which I think fit with this thread.

 

The first is that my Guardian is SO boring now. Every encounter is a matter of holding agro while trying to maintain decent power.   Meanwhile my Bruiser is more fun than ever, a bunch of stuns, good CA's, an absolute blast to play.

 

My second complaint, especially for tough fights, is the cast time on (I think all tanks have this problem) emergency buffs.  If a buff lasts for 30 seconds, it is clearly meant to be used in emergency situations.  Why the heck does it take 2 seconds to cast? If 7 mobs are all beating on me, and I'm going down, a 2 second cast time doesn't make a lot of sense, especially with all the interrupts/stuns that land these days.

[Frostborne]

---

Khore wrote:

Without even going into how utterly STUPID it was to reformat an entire game a year into it, I am going to post my feelings on how Sony has totally butchered Guardians.  This comes from someone who is in full fabled raid gear, has vast experience with all pre-expansion encounters in the game, et cetera.

 

Problem 1)  MITIGATION IS USELESS.  I may as well be wearing full very light armor for as well as I am tanking these days, it is just immensely stupid when you can't tell one small bit of difference having heros armor or not having heros armor, mobs hit for EXACTLY the same.  Why exaclty should we be playing the game if a character in full ebon tanks as well as one in full fabled?

Problem 2)  LACK OF ANYTHING SPECIAL FOR GUARDIANS.  No FD, no lifetap, no self heals like pallies get, not even a decent amount of dps like berserkers, what the hell are we supposed to be doing besides getting the crap beat out of us by anything and everything?  I guess nothing.

Problem 3)  Far too many hp and mitigation effects were removed (not like mitigation matters anyway).  The removal of our hp stacking buffs, as well as the removal of mitigation on jewelry all contributes to us sucking more and more.  Also, our self buffs have been made BAD.  IF Mitigation worked correctly, we would have about 60 seconds of potential survival before our buffs dropped and we died, but since it doesn't it's pointless. 

Problem 4)  All classes have been way overnerfed.  Just a horrendous side affect of altering EVERY ASPECT OF THE GAME.  All characters generally suck at this time, mobs have huge advantages over just about everyone, and there is no system in place to allow characters to undo this situation.  Mitiigation, resists, avoidance, are all broken horribly.  As if this weren't bad enough, they went a step further on 9-21 and made mobs EVEN BETTER than they were before.  Good luck hitting anything that is a high con to you, it ain't gonna happen.  I see A LOT OF FRUSTRATION GOING AROUND, and it is well earned frustration, as Sony really blew it, this whole thing could have been avoided by not totally changing a perfectly fine game that worked to make it horribly frustrating and seemingly pointless at this point, as nothing beyond killing blue mobs is gonna make you tank any better.

---

I agree with Khore.

[Frostborne]

---

Gladesman wrote:

---

LordIronfist wrote:

Out of a lot of posts here I see only 2 that are really constructive. Mentin:s and Gladesman:s posts actually ackowledge that there was to big of a gap preDof making them overpowered or at least the #1 tank above all others.

---

We were the best tanks because we had nothing else going for us. There's a difference in perception.. guardians were never overpowered just because we were the best tanks Tanking is NOT everything in EQ2 - tanking a mob doesn't kill it nor does it heal any damage done nor does it do anything for adds and on and on!

 

I never believed anybody else but warriors (so berserkers and guardians), and to a lesser extent crusaders, should be considered 'real' tanks. Sure, brawlers should be able to tank better than scouts, but that's not the main purpose of their class.. or so I believed and still believe

 

But SOE and the brawlers believed something else and the revamp came along. Now, arguing to hell and back about exactly which of the fighter classes should be THE tank is moot, because the reality is that SOE wanted all fighters to be able to tank on an almost equal level - give or take a few %.  

 

Even if guardians become the best tank again (even by a landslide!), this still wouldn't do anything for me and my guardian right now, because brawlers can STILL tank all the non-epic content AND do DPS AND have all these utility skills. Yes, I would be MT at every single raid, but will that make my class more fun to play? No. Will that make me able to kill solo mobs efficiently? No. Will that make me a desired class for normal exp groups? No. Will this make it so that ANYBODY would consider taking more than 1 guardian in a raidforce? No.

 

I loved being MT for my guild and it's not as if I would be happy if I never got to tank again.. but tanking isn't everything and I will be just as happy standing behind Drayek while a crusader or brawler tanks him, as long as I'm dishing out 300+ DPS or can use any utility/buff skills worth mentioning. 

---

Well Glades, what they could have done, instead of nerfing classes, was to bring up classes to a tanking level comparable to that of a Guardian.   I don't think it's out of the realm of logic to believe that Bruisers/Monks if given a bit more parry/avoidance/mitigation would have been a better alternative to what was done.  You'd think after many, many companies have lost SO much buisness due to drastic changes, SOE and developers would have learned that nerfing is absolutely the wrong track to take when changing the game.  Nobody a year after they've started playing wants to retool their entire character, change classes and start over, because some over zealous developer decides a year into the game he has some grand vision to wipe some classes and make uber others, and think people are going to be happy with it.  That's just idiocy.  I wish I could provide some constructive critisism that would make me happy, but I don't want utility, I wan't back what was taken, and that's tanking ability.  We never had anything else, never wanted anything else, and it was the blanket we clung to because it was secure and what we knew.  Now that they've riped the blanket from our hands, and given us nothing in return, what else is there to do but either move on or complain bitterly.  I can imagine some developer who ruined Guardian must play a Monk/Bruiser, because I don't see why anyone would be so spitefull as to code up this travesty and force it on the community.

[Gladesman]

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Raahl wrote:

The players picked the guardian class because we were tanks, plain and simple.  We stood there and took the damage.  We wear plate armor and use a big shield.  We defend the party by keeping the mobs on us.   We didn't pick them because of their utility or DPS. 

---

Yes, and so did I.

But face the truth: SOE thought it was good to rebrand all fighters to be tanks. We don't like that, but it's not going to change again and we all know it.

Unless brawlers and crusaders are MUCH worse tanks than they've now become there's no point in giving guards better tanking abilitiies again because that still doesn't make me a desired class to group with...UNLESS it is for the Main Tank spot versus an epic mob or raid instance.

It's just that simple.

And I'm sorry, but I WOULD like to see 60 sometime and I WOULD like to enjoy playing again and I happen to get my enjoyment from grouping and feeling that I'm contributing something. With the current situation my class is almost superfluous and empty compared to any other fighter class. Again, even if we would be MUCH better at tanking normal exp groups would still pick another fighter as their tank because all them can tank the normal content AND they have DPS and/or utility. Why do you think that with just better tanking skills all our problems would be solved - does this decrease the tanking upgrade the other classes got? No. Think about it!

Instead of dwelling on the past we should be looking to the future. WE ARE STILL GOOD TANKS (after they fix this current bug that makes brawlers so overpowered in the tanking department) AND WE WILL STILL DO WHAT OUR CORE BUSINESS HAS ALWAYS BEEN: TANKING. But unless you get on the bandwagon and demand better DPS or utility we will all just end up playing a forgotten and dead class.

[Raahl]

---

Gladesman wrote:

Yes, and so did I.

But face the truth: SOE thought it was good to rebrand all fighters to be tanks. We don't like that, but it's not going to change again and we all know it.

Unless brawlers and crusaders are MUCH worse tanks than they've now become there's no point in giving guards better tanking abilitiies again because that still doesn't make me a desired class to group with...UNLESS it is for the Main Tank spot versus an epic mob or raid instance.

It's just that simple.

And I'm sorry, but I WOULD like to see 60 sometime and I WOULD like to enjoy playing again and I happen to get my enjoyment from grouping and feeling that I'm contributing something. With the current situation my class is almost superfluous and empty compared to any other fighter class. Again, even if we would be MUCH better at tanking normal exp groups would still pick another fighter as their tank because all them can tank the normal content AND they have DPS and/or utility. Why do you think that with just better tanking skills all our problems would be solved - does this decrease the tanking upgrade the other classes got? No. Think about it!

Instead of dwelling on the past we should be looking to the future. WE ARE STILL GOOD TANKS (after they fix this current bug that makes brawlers so overpowered in the tanking department) AND WE WILL STILL DO WHAT OUR CORE BUSINESS HAS ALWAYS BEEN: TANKING. But unless you get on the bandwagon and demand better DPS or utility we will all just end up playing a forgotten and dead class.

---

I'm not dwelling on the past.  I stuck in the present.  There are issues with our tanking ability.  We do not tank as well as other classes now.   We went from being the best to being the worst.    Can we still tank?  Yes.  Should we tank better? Yes.

[KiseroHT]

yep Raahl this is how I feel.. i can still tank well but the pally in my group can offer utility and help finish off the xp groups faster.. i thought we were all supposed to be comparing apples to apples now.. why do i feel like a lemon sometimes??

[Gladesman]

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Raahl wrote:

I'm not dwelling on the past.  I stuck in the present.  There are issues with our tanking ability.  We do not tank as well as other classes now.   We went from being the best to being the worst.    Can we still tank?  Yes.  Should we tank better? Yes.

---

But I do think we should be the best tank, don't get me wrong. I just prefer to believe that the current tank-status is a bug that will be fixed soon!!

What I am talking about is that even when we come out on top again it doesn't matter how big or small the margin is, as the other fighters will still be able to tank nearly everything (if not everything) too.  Maybe not as good as us, but that will be NO reason not to get a brawler/crusader in to an exp group to tank as they have all these other spiffy abilities and higher DPS as well. No matter how good our tanking skills will be (unless it means we will need no healer anymore the fact remains that all the other fighter classes can tank all the non-epic content quite comfortably as well - which still means that that the guardian class remains rather useless.

[b00gjuice]

---

TanRaistlyn wrote:

Guild leader, and Guild MT, and Try as I might I just cant bring myself to grind this guy upwards...A dev acknowledgement to our woes would go a long way in making me not cancel my account....Please is anyone listening??

Covenant

---

Please fix  Guardians so My friend and Guild Leader does not quit. Nerfing Guardians so much that they no longer enjoy playing is going to rip the game apart. SOE cannot leave things like they are. Please pull your heads out of the sand and give Guardians, along with the other fighters their taunts and dps back. These players did not roll Guardians and other fighter classes to be "weak".  Those that wear plate armor should not be constantly stifled, stunned, and basically unable to even gain agro the instant combat starts. This is not fun for them, and not fun for us. Lets make this a better game for all of us by putting Fighters back out front, fearless and untamed and ready to rock and roll! -Azzo  51 Templar Faydark CoS

[Theonol]

I myself fully agree with you Khore ~I was one of the beta testers and after only trying it out a few hours on beta  came to the point of why bother trying! If this is the way it's going to stay I'll be canceling EQ2 & EQ1 within a few weeks time. It's not a fun game any more and since I haven't bothered with EQ1 since EQ2 launched ~ I might as well go find a new game to play!

[Jadeny]

I'm not even a Guardian and I still say you guys need a huge fix.   I'm sorry that you all have to go through this... I hope SOE does something about it. 

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

can you people please direct me towards my "utility"?

Please post screenshots of our vaunted utility.

Our heals? they are for healing OURSELVES when we tank. Our wards? They are for warding OURSELVES when we tank.

These skills allow us to tank at the same lvl of a guard. If I dont spam my heals I take a ton more damage than you people...almost 30%.

You guys can whine and cry all you want, but dont bring palys into the picture. Our mitigation, hit points, evasion, is lower than yours. Our DPS is the SAME as yours..our power is the SAME as yours, even though we need it for heals and wards just to tank the same. Still crying about your mitigation? You [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]..ours is LOWER than yours.

You people can be so ignorant. You continuously post about Paly utility when we have none.

What, our rezzes? If im tanking and someone dies I dont have time to stop tanking to rez someone. Same for my heals and wards. Please go ahead and post screenshots of our utility. I'd like to know what im missing here.

Uzhiel, lvl 52 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark

[eqtaka]

I'm not a full raid tank.  My Guild is a "hybrid".  We fight well and usually win.  We just don't Raid a lot, but we do Raid.  With the recent changes, we can't Raid right now just like everyone else.   It seems mitigation against anything 2x or greater is broken.  One of my Paladins level 51 with about 4 pieces of fabled went to help another Guild with Death Fist Citadel.  The final encounter against Emperor Fyst should not be an issue since a 51 is well above the Bosses level.  So a 41^^^ 2x  vs 12 players and one of my Paladins level 51.  A 10 level spread prolly grey if not green for sure.  Fyst hit the Paladin for 3500 damage.  Paladins don't have much more hit points then that,and yes, they wiped out.

 

Basically, he wasn't mitigating any damage at all. There is supposed to be less mitigation vs mobs greater level then yourself and more vs mobs less levels then yourself.  It's not this way.  The system is broken.  Its not a Guardian thing.  The tables are invalid.  Someone could argue well Paladins have resists vs this type of damage like Guardians have hi resist vs heat damage.  What about mobs whos primary attack is crushing or slashing damage?

 

I do enjoy the new system on a venture level.  I personally don' mind having other tank types being able to share the Glory of being a Raid tanker.  Some of the problems with that are EQ2 was supposed to be designed around smaller and more intimiate groups and Guilds.  Those are SoEs words not really mine.  If the game stems around small Guildsbeing able to do lots, then small Guild can be successful.  Small Guilds are, yes, small....not many members, as the word implies.  Spreading the responsibilities so all tank types can tank in their own personal special situations means that in order to raid, and well, any group of players, like Guilds, are required to have each tank type within the Guild walls and at their disposal in order to achieve a victory consistantly.

 

This is a good concept but it goes against the original concept.  Even if they fix the combat tables to adjust mitigation properly.  The only Guilds able to Raid will be larger ones.  Large Guilds and Raids are EQ1.  This is EQ2.  24 man events Max by design.