LVL 34 Guardian grouped with LVL 30 Zerker: Taunt

[CamdenSte]

First off, I don't post often, but I do read the boards on occasion. I know that there was debate before on taunting with a zerker in your group, but I wanted to know if anyone has found a way to resolve this issue. Let me explain:

 

I have a set group that we XP with nightly. 2 Templars, 2 Rangers, me (34 Guardian), and a 30 Zerker. Until recently, I have not had an issue with keeping agro, but now....

 

No matter what I do, AE taunt, single taunt, group buffs, HTL...nothing can keep him from getting agro. I don't want him to not use his skills to make him go beserk, because he adds a lot to the group with DPS, but it is becoming more nad more of an issue. I am on the border of just saying he will MT and I will add to the DPS if this can't be resolved soon.

 

Has anyone found a combination of skills to conter this? Please don't respond that  you have no issues with this and you are lvl 25 or blah blah blah. This was never an issue until 30+.

[Obl]

Just because someone has a skill doesn't mean it should be used all of the time. Just as we don't use taunts when we aren't tanking, he shouldn't use high aggro skills constantly when he isn't tanking. Part of playing smart is knowing when to use your skills. Berzerkers have to be very smart with what skills they use and when to avoid aggro, and that's just part of learning to play their class well. I suggest you work with him and find out what skills he's using to steal aggro all of the time, and work with him on timing. Certainly his DPS output won't be maximum when he "holds back" but to be honest that's the same for every DPS class, not just berzerkers. Just like I wouldn't want a wizard tossing in a 800 point nuke on incomming, I wouldn't want a berzerker going blood lust or flurry or whatever on incomming. IE: Just because he has the skills, doesn't mean he should be leaning on them every time they refresh.Edit: What about that post warrants 1 star? Seriously, you 1-star kids need to grow up. Look through this very thread and every other well worded, informitive, non-offensive post is 1-starred. This rating system will be the death of these boards.

Message Edited by Oblix on 01-04-2005 01:54 PM

[Yennik]

As the game is right now you will NEVER out agro a zerker who is using bloodlust (even if he is 3 levels lower than you), thus you have 3 choices:

1) don't group with zerkers

2) ask the zerker to not use bloodlust while you are the main tank.

3) let the zerker be mian tank while you use skills like ally, stand firm, ect... that make his job as tank work better.

I use option 2 or 3 and things work out fine.

[tsaav]

switching to a faster weapon to help increace my HTL proc seems to help, but havn't had a change to to test it with a bez friend of mine yet. Being able to talk in RL/TS/Phone to see what each other is doing realtime is the best way to experiement with this Maybe pickup a fast weapon and try it out and see how you do.

[CamdenSte]

Good points. Let me say that we do use TS and it is a huge plus. I know what he is doing and parse regularly to see the benefits and down side of what it is. When we fight a single ^ ^ I tell him to go zerk when it is at 75% and we don't have an issue. But on multiple mobs, like a 5 pull for example, we could really use his extra DPS, but can't due to the huge amount of a beat down he receives.

 

I am going to try to get the HTL to proc more tonight, but I assume it is weapon swings only that it occurs? Not with skills, right?

[Armeng]

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Yennik wrote:

As the game is right now you will NEVER out agro a zerker who is using bloodlust (even if he is 3 levels lower than you), thus you have 3 choices:

1) don't group with zerkers

2) ask the zerker to not use bloodlust while you are the main tank.

3) let the zerker be mian tank while you use skills like ally, stand firm, ect... that make his job as tank work better.

I use option 2 or 3 and things work out fine.

---

I use option 1

[Lamprey_02]

Yup, option 1 always.I have an aversion, if not to say revulsion, to grouping with zerkers. It's not that the class has something wrong with it really, it's just that it seems to attract tools. I'm sure I have a small & unscientific sample to go by and that there's a bunch of good zerkers, but every one I've ever met was an idiot, a jerk, or plain slow on the uptake (or some combination of the 3). Hence, not grouping with them has become my rule.

[Aburai]

I'm probably making a big mistake by posting here, but I'm hopefully considered to be one of those Berserkers who isn't a "Tool".  I group occasionally with Guardians, Monks and Bruisers and the occasional SK/Paladin.  Some of which are higher level than me so naturally they take the MT/MA position.  They never lose aggro to me if I do not use Bloodlust,  I learnt that in the first encounter of the first group I ever offtanked.

 

It's my golden rule - If you are a Berserker and Offtanking, DO NOT USE BLOODLUST :smileywink: unless asked to by the Main Tank.

 

It's actually a great tool to pull that last bit of aggro off the MT in an emergency, such as when the MT is running low on HP and the Healer is OOM and there's no scout with an evac.

 

Flame me if you feel like it, but I reckon that's the way to go.  A team player wouldn't argue with you if you asked them not to use Bloodlust except when you needed it.

 

/salute

 

[Zaber]

Nobody will flame you for making good and valid points :smileyhappy:

 

 

 

[Wulfe]

I have come to a conclusion that there are too many hotshots playing zerkers. And most of them have not yet learned how to play their class right. Its like when EQ1 first started. Monks were king of melee and usually played with agro becouse it was so easy to steal it from warrior or pally, it only took 2 flykicks in a row at lv30. Same thing happened when rogues first got backstab - they stole agro easily (and died if evade failed) and they had to learn how to play with their melee power. The problem we have with zerkers is that they can take a punch. hey have usually same ac (not counting selfbuffs here) than guardians and very close hp. This hp difference eventually grows bigger becouse they tend to choose str over sta. Its true that they are not 100% efficient when they do not use bloodlust, but thats the way it is. I have played with good zerkers who rarely steal agro from me - everyone sane person knows they can easily do that - but also with idiots who just reply in case of agro: man, and I dont even try Lol! Sigh ...

 

Btw, I have np for zerker being equal or higher lv than me to be MT, its just that usually they dont even want that. Go figure.

 

 

lv29 Barb Guardian

Message Edited by Wulfeen on 01-04-2005 12:27 AM

[Demolitio]

Onichi, those are all very good and valid points.  And with those points COMING from a Berserker, it makes it much more palletable to both sides of the table.

 

Part of any group, (pickup or standard group) it just takes time to get used to everyone's style of play.  Typically if I group with a Berserker, I'll ride the taunts heavy, and make sure that he/she is assisting me.  After a couple encounters, I'll slow up on the taunts to see where their baseline is.  If I have to punch too much power to taunts and such, I'll have them back off on their higher aggro abilities until later in the fight. 

 

It's all about getting used to who does what, and how they do it.

[YellowSpi]

Being a Zerker, and having a guardian in my guild I group with often, I have had to play with agro management. Have couple methods I follow:1) I use bloodlust the same as a caster uses heavy nukes. I wait until the mob gets to about 50-60% health, then pop BL. Turn it off after the fight is finished for the next encounter.2) Don't attack the mob as soon as you possibly can. Wait 3 or 4 seconds.3) Do not combine BL and offensive abilities. Our group uses a lot of group HO, so spamming my offensive skills doesn't happen throughout the fight. General fight: Wait a few seconds, engage. At 10 seconds we start our first group HO. By the time the wheel pops from first HO, I can usually pop BL. 2nd HO Wheel, FFA on the offensive skills. Mob usually dies shortly after. Granted we generally are fighting ^^ yellow or great mobs.Agro MGT is part of the game. A skilled person will learn how to properly manage agro. Was the same in EQ1. Anyone could pull agro from the MT, the skill was learning how not to while still maximizing your DPS.Of course if I'm MT, agro is never an issue.............

[CamdenSte]

Ok, upgraded HTL as high as I could (app3) last night and tried some more. If I pull with AE taunt, HTL, Bury, then allow them to go at it, I don't lose agro. I hit AE taunt every recycle too. Oh, I was using Festeel Hatchets and I was proccing HTL about 5 to 10 times per fight.

[Azry]

Option 1 sounds good to me...:smileyhappy:

[Vimy]

I had a thought the other day, but never had the chance to test it out.Ranger get trick shot which is supposed to be low agro on the attack, but the next to hit the mob will get added hate. Would that be a good way to get a bit more hate going early on for a guardian? Are any groups using a ranger's trick shot?Just curious. =)(BTW - My main is a Ranger, and haven't had the pleasure of grouping with both a guardian and zerker.)

[CherobylJ]

At that level if the Bers is having trouble with agro they should equip a heavy skullcrusher (3.7 delay)or similar...get decent DPS and can use Bloodlust w/o agro worries.  You are right in saying that particular Bers is not playing their class right and is probably drunk on their agro ability.

 

Really Bers is an agro art class as a SA, to "clamp down" agro I start with weap delay , then reducing DOTs (wound/concussion/etc) then turning Bloodlust on later in fights, to not having it on at all (using dual wield blood fury instead).  Usually with a competent MA (be it Guardian or other) toning down the weap delay and DOTs is enough. 

 

For all of you saying #1 I'm kinda disapointed...its that kinda on-going rhetoric that hurts this board and its hardly constructive.

[Fae]

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tsaavik wrote:
switching to a faster weapon to help increace my HTL proc seems to help, but havn't had a change to to test it with a bez friend of mine yet. Being able to talk in RL/TS/Phone to see what each other is doing realtime is the best way to experiement with this

Maybe pickup a fast weapon and try it out and see how you do.

---

I'd like to point out procs do not run on weapon delay. They are purely % chance based on agility per minute. Faster weapons wont proc more, slower weapons wont proc less.

[Chog]

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Faeye wrote:

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tsaavik wrote:
switching to a faster weapon to help increace my HTL proc seems to help, but havn't had a change to to test it with a bez friend of mine yet. Being able to talk in RL/TS/Phone to see what each other is doing realtime is the best way to experiement with this

Maybe pickup a fast weapon and try it out and see how you do.

---

I'd like to point out procs do not run on weapon delay. They are purely % chance based on agility per minute. Faster weapons wont proc more, slower weapons wont proc less.

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Will have to disagree with that.  As a berserker dual wielding I proc alot, constant spam procing going on.  When I swap to a slower 1-handed weapon and shield my proc rate is drastically reduced.

[Fae]

Odd, my research doesn't agree. Maybe a recent patch messed things up, but I doubt it.

[Glanor]

Procs on weapons are probably time based, as they were in EQL. However abilities that go off when certain conditions are met (i.e. bloodlust) don't seem to be limited to this rule, as I literally proc it every single time a weapon hits.

[TunaBoo]

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Faeye wrote:

Odd, my research doesn't agree. Maybe a recent patch messed things up, but I doubt it.

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At level 20 you won't notice procs from HTl as much as someone higher, as your buffs will hold aggro enough.

[Grimgo]

Grim a Zurkur.. Guards can hold agro wen a zurker ids in a grup even if weer usin Bludlust.. Grim use DW kregoks an all ma abilities an fer da most part da guard holds agro.. der occashuns wen grim get agro but ids not dat bad.. Dunno if da guard has uber adepts on hiz skils but grim hab adept 1 or betur on most of ma skilz so he mus be duin sumptin right.. dunno wat tu tell yaz all..

 

/drool

 

Grimgore Bloodbath

29th lvl Ogar Zurkur of Innothule

Dread

[Tazr]

I have wanted to reply in the Guardian vs Berserker threads for a while now but was waiting until I could collect more information.

 

My typical group is Me (Guardian), Wizard, Templar, Shaman/Warden, Berserker/Monk, Swashbuckler.  Occasionally these change around.

 

In general, I cannot take my attention off of a mob for a second, without Berserker/Wizard or Swashbuckler pulling agro.  We work together all the time, and each of the class's knows where their agro limit is, so in effect they make me work my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off.  Im going to go over 1 or 2 senario's that come up a lot.

 

Encounters of 5+ mobs.

 

First off I usually pull with a bow, then use Shouting Cry on the way towards the group.  As soon as I'm in the camp, I put HTL up and tell my group in Ventrilo that its up  (My mage constantly asks me if its up, thats how close to agro we run hehe).

 

Then comes my round of buffing, I dont use dig in or soldiers stance at all, I just cast Battle  Tactics, Guardians Call, Battle Cry and Call of Command.  This gives me increased defense / hp / offense as well as taunt agro.

 

So right now, I have AE Taunts, 1 or 2 procs of HTL and 4 buff agro spots.  Now, this is where a berserker comes into his/her prime.  Its not bloodlust that pulls agro in these situations is a Zerker with a 2handed weapon using Bloodrage.  My friend Zerker tells me he can proc about 10-12 times a fight for 100 per mob.  So around 1k to each mob.  Guardians simply do not have the kind of Taunt to keep all 5+ mobs on him, when you have that kind of damage being done to every mob.  The DPS on zerkers at level 30 with a good 2hander is between 100-110 DPS on multiple mob encounters (I think mine is like 35-40 lol).  With Bloodrage, the zerker could pull agro whenever he wanted for the most part, but the longer he waits, the less chance he has of pulling agro.

 

There is only 2 solutions, dont use bloodlust/bloodrage, or figure out when to use bloodrage.  The first is silly, if you dont ask a swashy to not backstab, dont ask a zerker to not AoE, its not the answer...

 

I think a few people on this thread and many others were in the right area.  If you have a Berserker in your group and you as a guardian have been assigned main tank duty, ask the Zerker not to use bloodlust first.  Then, tell him to back off using Bloodrage until late on.  Then gradually use bloodrage more and more sooner into fights until you find a nice mid point where you can do max DPS and still have the guardian hodling agro.

 

Guardians, work your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off, keep your DPS up, keep the ae taunts cycled, watch for buffs to drop, this will keep you at max agro, and enable the group to work at the highest dps possible.  The second you lose agro, the DPS of the group falls, this can mean disaster.

 

 

Single Double up mobs...

 

If you have lost agro on a double up mob, then read up on your combart arts cause your doing something wrong   Suppress, Taunting Challenge, Taunting Blow and Buffs, all on 1 mob, only a Wizard using Fireballs and Big nukes non stop could pull agro (Or maybe a swashy with self preservation off  hehe).  Basicly, this topic is based only on groups of mobs not singles.

 

For the Guardians frustrated about losing agro and even more so getting it back, I feel your pain, every day.  I dont even have rescue on my hotbar anymore, it doesnt do anything.  Supress is pretty good, but for the most part, its best just to slap guardian abilities on the ones that need it and pray.  I think as a Guardian you can be MT, but its a lot of work, more work than MT'ing in any other MMO I have played, it wouldnt suprise me if the number of Guardians on the servers dropped and raw dps class's go up.

 

Hope the above helps, I'm almost a 32 Guardian on Blackburrow if you want to Drop me a tell.

 

- Tazric

 

 

Message Edited by Tazric on 01-06-2005 12:19 PM