Dual Wielding?

[TsunamiBlade]

i know that Guardians are THE tank but i was in EL and saw a few higher lvl guardians 32-35 using some dual weapons that looked to be from Zek or other Parts of EL, was i seeing only a select few with a bad idea or is using duals worth while as a guardian?

[maz]

Iam a 36 Guardian and i use Dual Wield as often as i can, but it depends on what lvl the mobs are and what the healers are telling me. but i really like the damage i can do if i get the chance

[Borens]

i duel wielded for 7 lvl untill i recently sold my weapons due to them going grey and my friends loved it evrything died way faster. Now im using a shield and 1 hander and i dont notice much benefit to it. I do way less dmg and the damage the shield eats is not enuff to justify not duel wielding.

[GenesisForgot]

I use a shield at level 30. it gives me like 300+ armor and its not worth the very slight increase to dmg to switch my Skullsprainer for dualwielders.. especially when I'm tanking red ^^ group mobs.

[Dreg]

I DW on everything, reds con or not, no problems,  been doing so since lv 22, 37 now.  dunno why but DW seems to give you beter avoidance. and alot parry / ripo, long as you keep all your buffs up, i do know for a fact i can solo ( double up "group" blue con mele based mobs ) with DW, i can not do so with 2hs nore 1hs /w shield if that means anything

[TunaBoo]

Shield blocking seems kinda iffy, but the AC is very nice on hard stuff.IMHO any warrior using 2 handed is making a mistake. Sword and board or DW is where it is at.

[Kyd]

Don't dual wield if you are tanking for sure. The amount of damage you take from ripostes and loss of AC is very noticable. I only use dual wield when not tanking or soloing. I am level 30 and if I use dual wield while tanking I get chewed up a lot faster than if I used a 1h/shield combo. I have figured it goes something like this - Dual wield has the highest damage output with the lowest defense rating (riposte is high), Two hander is a medium in both damage and defense (riposted less than dual wield), and One hand plus a shield is the lowest of the three in damage but the highest in defense (added AC and lower ripostes).

Message Edited by Kyder on 12-17-2004 09:12 PM

[Dreg]

hrm dunno dude, i dont get chewed up at all unless my personal grp buffs drop. if i dont have guardians call, call of command, and do or die on yea then i get chewed up bad, long as those 3 are running the avoidnce and defence is huge, could change with next patch though heard there making alot changes, it make more sence for guards to use sheild and 1hs, but even our specific sheild abilitys you dont even need a sheild equiped to use them.  2hs surely sucks but iv yet to notice any differance between DW and sword and board as for as tanking goes, long as healers alwase have plenty of mana and u have no trouble killing back to back non stop then it really shouldnt mater wich you choose to use, go with whatever works for you best

[Albori]

depends what your doing.if tanking grouped with dps classes your dmg doesnt register on the same scale with theirs so get behind your shield for added a/c

[Kyd]

---

Dregan wrote:

hrm dunno dude, i dont get chewed up at all unless my personal grp buffs drop. if i dont have guardians call, call of command, and do or die on yea then i get chewed up bad, long as those 3 are running the avoidnce and defence is huge, could change with next patch though heard there making alot changes, it make more sence for guards to use sheild and 1hs, but even our specific sheild abilitys you dont even need a sheild equiped to use them.  2hs surely sucks but iv yet to notice any differance between DW and sword and board as for as tanking goes, long as healers alwase have plenty of mana and u have no trouble killing back to back non stop then it really shouldnt mater wich you choose to use, go with whatever works for you best

---

Really, it is the same as it was in EQ. More swings equals more chances to be riposted. Faster weapons x 2 will give the opponent a greater chance to hit you back, which is why most tanks before liked to use 2hs sine it was the same DPS but had less incoming damage. This has been proven in the past on steelwarriors that dual wield will get you a significantly greater amount of damage. I don't see any reason why this would all of a sudden change.

Message Edited by Kyder on 12-17-2004 09:27 PM

[Dreg]

however i got a 500ac sheild other day and bought a 1.3 sec delay 1hs, prestine forged falcon i think it is, that i havent had  the chance to try out, servers been down all day today, with shield im pushing 2600 ac unbuffed and 3000ac in grp buffed, with 4000hp buffed, it could be also that i play with static groups, and alwase have str buffed to 240 and agi around 250, possibley giving me great avoidance

[Dreg]

aye that makes sence, but im going by what i see in game i rarely see a mob ripo on me, but you also have to take into considertation, is slower weapon worth not holding aggro. just to avoid taking some dmg ? like said with my buffs on i barely get hit, its odd, but it works. really the only thing that even tears me up, and this is only when i have no shamen for ward, is incoming specials. ward takes care of that. the other problem i have with sheilds atm, is that specials done to you dont seem to do a ac check, get slamed with full dmg anyway, regardless of how high your ac is. but hopefully things could change in future patches

[Dreg]

you just made me think of something though, maybe thats why we get a 2hs for our quest reward, would make total sence on the ripo and taking dmg thing cuz i alwase wonderd what is defesive about a halbard of defence. maybe its broken right now.  all i can say is i tank just fine atm with DW. but your post does fall into good logic.

[Xiomicr]

I solo a lot and measure my efficiency by the level of mobs I can kill

 

I've swapped out a lot of combinations via my TS profits

 

a strong 1hander and a tower shield is the way to go man...

 

our specials count for far more damage than our weap and ac is king for withstanding meelee attacks:smileyhappy:

[Kyd]

Right, we will lose some aggro by losing a bit of DPS. This is where I see a lot of groups fail. They need to work together and consider beforehand what type of role they want you to play. Defensive with slightyly less aggro or offensive with slightly higher aggro. I prefer using 1h and a shield to play my role better as a tank.  For the most part, I find most of my aggro is from spells rather than damage.

[GenesisForgot]

"our specials count for far more damage than our weap "

 

exactly.

[Kc]

I been using DW more, and now I found a parser I will see what kind of dps I get from the different styles.  I judge dw and sword and board by how fast we move as a group.  If cleric is always good on mana I just DW.  I am 32 guard and while doing RE ^^ Red I still use DW without any problem with downtime.  The dynamic might change in later levels I am not sure.

[Cassusdy]

Allot of people don't ever think of the visual factor to the eqaution either. I know this may sound strange to some, but a group likes to see their tank behind a giant shield rather then dual weilding. It makes them feel safe whther there is a great benefit or not.

[Zalier]

Another thing you guys should take into account is who is healing you?  I play a 21 mystic as well and know when i am healin ac dont matter at all, actually its warding.  Shammy types are in damage prevention with slows weakens and wards.  but wards take damage before midigation and ac.  So when ur warded you could have 100000 ac or 0 ac and the wards absorb just the same no matter what.  So if you are a guardian being kept alive by a shammy, dual wield might not be such a bad idea.  At least u do more dmg and that couple hundred ac u get from ur shield is useless anyways.  It would also depend on the group your with, if you have sufficient dps in a grp it wont make a big diff how much more dmg u can do anyways.  might just lower down time with that little bit more defence.  Just my 2 cents since i have 20+ guardian and mystic.

[TsunamiBlade]

Well i dont care what gives my group a better sense of security just what is bare bones better.

[Zalier]

Ummm .... No such thing as bare bones better when u run into so many variables.  In certain situations some things will work better than others.  Thats as bare bones as it gets.  If you think there is one way to go thats always gonna better than others all or even most of the time, tighten the screws holding that bump on ur neck

[Kir]

It really depends on your AC.

 

With buffs, using yellow to orange jewerly, Armour Quest armour, crafted helmet, and 1hs, with the Freeport Gaurdian quest shield I will gain maybe 3-5AC total with buffs because I am already capped I guess at my level (26).  I am guessing that if I switched to dual wield and used the same buffs I would benefit more from my self buffs.

 

Anyone in game soon care to see the difference in AC gains when using a shield or dual wield?

[Toolius]

Some benefits i have noticed as a 23 guardian from Dual Wielding as well as Sword and Board....skroo 2hs...it's slow i dont like it.

 

The most apparent benefit i have noticed from DW is agro agro agro! if you are doing groups of mobs and you are the main tank and you dont have a chanter then you are most likely using Hold the Line or something similar (not sure if you high level guardians have a new one) and with every hit you in essence Taunt the entire encounter.  Sooo if you hit 4 times in 2 seconds then you Taunt 4 times in 2 seconds....if you are using a shield then you basically get half of the benefit from the hold the line ability line.  This is why i use hold the line and DW if im tanking grouped encounters.

 

1h and shield...i use this anytime i am killing something that is a single mob yellow ^^ or better (not always but most of the time).  Ripostes hurt...and if a mob gets lucky and ripostes you a few times back to back then it gets ugly.  So  i use a 1hs and a shield to reduce those ripostes and boost the ac. Keeps the healers happy which keeps the group happy. 

 

That's all i got.  Hope it helps you all out.

 

 

Message Edited by Toolius on 12-18-2004 05:49 PM

[Noah]

Here is my take on DW vs 2H vs S/B.

 

Dual Wield (DW) -

     Once you try it you will hate having the shield.  I will tell you that the damage is more with DWield for sure.  There are a lot more weapons out there that are DW and combined together have DPS that destroy a 2H and S/B.  Not to mention usually having great stats on both weapons (trumping the 2H weapon huge).  You will get more ripostes.  It seems when the mob does riposte it hits you for ITS full damage and not the damage you would have done (ie not reflecting but getting a free hit).  Just gauge your party.  If you have 2 healers that are high on power all the time, pull out the two beat sticks and have fun.  If you see that power is low, use the shield and 1 hander for more protection.  Last, don't tank a named mob with DW.  They have increase riposte, melee damage is generally higher, and you should just focus on keeping that mob on you and not on anyone else.  I do not believe you increase your parry / riposte with DWield considering your skill does not increase when you put DW weapons on.  That is a big Myth.

 

1hd and Shield (S/B)

     Always have a good 1hd and shield in your bags.  Shields usually have some killer HP/Pwr increases and other stats as well.   It has made the difference of life and death for me so many times.  Most of the time I will use it on a named mob or when exploring areas that are tuff and foreign to myself or the party members.  Basically my rule of thumb is - If I dont know we will win or not, put the shield on.  Now, it is very tuff to get a good 1handed weapon atm.  Keep your eye out or nab Berik from Stormhold (not a very hard quest but it means a few days in SH probably ).  The shield provides for a HUGE AC boost (compared to what it was a long time ago in beta >.<  ).  The block potential is based on what size of shield you are using.  Tower = best, Kite = good, etc etc...  Dont go looking for like 10 blocks a fight.  I generally see 1:15 to 1:20.  Just hope that it blocks a mobs special vs a regular hit. 

 

Teh Two Hander (2H)

     I am a huge fan of the 2H look.  I love it.  Unfortunately with a 2h you loose out on a lot.  Sure it hits like a truck but there is one problem with that.  You are tanking and right in front of the mob.  Thus the mob gets Block, ripostes, and parries on you.  That big ol 2.5-3.8 second delay will only depress you.  Not only do you lose dps compared to DW or S/B, you lose the blocking and AC of a shield, AND look at the stats on these 2H weapons.  Something just does not add up.  2 good DW weapons or S/B will increase your power and hps more than 20% vs the 2 Hander.  Unless there is a semi tweak with 2 Hander stats (ie increasing them by 20%), you wont see me using one unless it is for looks.

 

 

Guess that is all I have to say on this topic.   Hope this sheds some light for people that are on the fence.

 

[Belce]

We get a bunch of tools, DW, sword and board, and 2 hander.  I think it is best to make use of all of them depending on the situation and your experience. 

 

Same thing with our damage type skills, slash, crush and piercing, you want to spend some time keeping those up as well. 

[Gra]

When tanking i prefer shield and a slow hard hitting one hander. Why?

The diffrence is damage is insignifcant and when tanking 7 red mobs there is nothng more vital than staying alive. A slow one hander does just as much damage but has very few ripostes and my ripostes are harder hits. Whenever your infront of the mob you should realy hit SLOW.

Put a rogue infront of a mob and they get beat down just from ripostes, but if you wanna drain your healers power needlessly thats ofcourse entierly up to you.

DW for aggro you say? Aggro on single mobs are not that big of an issue, cant keep it up with taunts/buffs then your in trouble.

Damage for me is irrelevant im the rock that breaks the crashing waves.

 

When soloing i prefer a twohander, why?

Well i LOVE dualwielding and it appeals to me in many ways. So i did dual, alot.

Then i did some testing and everytime i did solo a mob using dual compared to a two hander of equal quality i ended up more hurt at the end of the fight if i dualed. The ripostes and the lack of damage from my weaker ripostes due to weaker weapons was the reason.

Hence i leave dualwielders to the rogues, as it should be.

 

Tanking using 2handers i leave to those crazy zerks!

Message Edited by Grahn on 12-20-2004 03:43 AM

Message Edited by Grahn on 12-20-2004 03:49 AM

[Obl]

I've pretty much ended up at the same conclusions as Noah above. I use two Feysteel Hatchets right now whenever I'm not tanking something big. If it's yellow, named or not, or below I'm dual wielding. If it's orange ^^, it depends on the healers whether I use shield or not. If it's orange or red named, I'm usually using a shield. If I see mana going down too fast I'll throw on my shield.Dual wield is just plain addictive, especially with 1.2 delay weapons. I only gain like 20 or 30 hp when I swap out to my shield, though I do gain over 350 ac and the ability to block. My 2.0 delay weapon just can't keep up with even half the damage output of my dual wield combo. And tanking normal exp mobs I find it easier to hold aggro dual wielding too.I keep a 2h around for fun, like my SBH. But I certainly don't wield it very often. For looks... the best look so far, imo, is a 1h trident and a tower shield in the hands of an ogre >). Cause you wield the trident with 2 hands, while holding the shield, and it just looks bad a**.