Need all guardians to start testing a new strategy and offer input/feedback here.

[Mig]

First the strategy - This should be for full balanced groups hunting mobs that are their lvl or harder.Set up the group with the following roles:Main Tank - That is the guardian.Main Assist - This is important.... this is NOT the guardian, this is a primary damage dealer who doesn't need to do anything in the fight but target mobs and whack on them. It should be a scout, mage, or another offensive tank like a berserker or a brawler. This person also is the PULLER and the one who initially targets the mobs. During the fight - The entire group should be targeting the main assist, including yourself. The main assist pulls the mobs and controls what the group targets. Everyone needs to assist through him. YOUR JOB - While the fight begins immediately taunt and attack through your main assist. YOU are still the tank, the mob is attacking you and your still taking the damage...now here is the beauty of the strategy: If your cleric or damage dealer or whoever draws agro, instead of trying to just taunt it off, first use your protection line of spells. i.e. Sentinel/hold firm/intervene etc, etc....THEN use your taunts and stuns if that hasn't pulled the monster.This does three things. 1. It makes you cast a buff and generate agro. 2. Instead of just being a regular taunt, the buff actually helps protect the person your targeting. 3. Does not disrupte the other group members attacks.Since the rest of the group is targeting the main assist, their attacks can still keep going off because the main assist has never left focus from the mob.Please try this out over the weekend and post your feedback/comments here.

Message Edited by Migyb on 11-24-2004 01:46 PM

[GenesisForgot]

Only problem - I pull therefore I target initial enemy in a pack. We should have an enchanter and this would make things difficult. If I do my job right no need to target priest anyways.

[Mig]

Right, re-read my post. You are not the puller anymore. Your main damage dealer is. Like I side this is for BALANCED groups. If it's just 2-3 people and your doing all the damage as well as tanking then its not going to work well.Again, under this strategy you are NOT the puller. Your main damage dealer is. As for the enchanter in the group he is a totally different animal. The enchanter needs to be picking and choosing his targets separately from the rest of the group to mez. I almost always have an enchanter. He almost never assists me until we've locked the group down. As for this not doing your job right, I truly be live THIS is your job. I don't think we are supposed to be the main assist anymore, just the main tank. The targeted protection abilities are to awkward to use otherwise, and if your the main assist you mess the combat up for the group when you try to target another player and stop targeting the mob.

Message Edited by Migyb on 11-24-2004 01:44 PM

[MesclunM]

Healers aren't going to be able to target the main assist - they need to target you because they have to heal you...

[Mig]

A good point, but I expect when encounters start to begin to become more difficult this won't be a problem as the clerics will be too busy healing to be doing damage.

[GaidalCa]

This is the strategy I've been using since early beta.

 

The reason for it is the change in /assist as compared to EQ1.

 

In Layman's terms, EQ2 assist continues to refresh itself after you activate it. So if you're assisting someone and they change targets, your target will change with them.

 

Good for healers since they can attack while having a group member targetted, but bad for everyone else.

 

The solution is to have 2 different people acting as MT/MA. MT of course is someone with many taunting abilities. MA should usually be a melee'er. He/she can pick and choose targets as need be. The MT is then free to taunt mobs off casters and grab any adds that come.

 

By all means though, when you have all the adds and such stuck on you, go back to the mob the group is killing and try to taunt that onto you if it's not already.

 

Remember, always keep good drink on you for fast power regen and use ALL your taunting skills for maximum tankage.

 

This of course is really only useful in low level groups and groups without crowd control. When you have an Enchanter or such present, it's best to just let them do their job.

 

If you get any complaints from healers who just like to keep the MT targetted, tell them to quit being lazy and use those F1-F6 keys.

Message Edited by GaidalCain on 11-24-2004 02:13 PM

[GaidalCa]

On the contrary Migyb, clerics healing generates more aggro than their attacks could ever do.

Message Edited by GaidalCain on 11-24-2004 02:13 PM

[Lethe]

It's not an aggro problem for the healer, it's a damage problem. Implied targetting doesn't work in a chain, so they won't attack or be able to nuke at all. (Healer has MT on target, but MT has MA on target. MT hits MAs target, but healer doesn't. Healer will just get an endless string of "you're not allowed to attack your current target".)

 

So you lose some dps (miniscule) and the game gets boring for the healer. Also the healer is quite often either a major debuffer (shaman) or has healing spells that should be put on the enemy (cleric).

[GaidalCa]

Which is why the healer should have an assist macro pointed at the MA for attacks/debuffs and use F1-F6 keys for healing. ^^

[Lightmoog]

Better get those scouts used to pulling, it is what they are there for. Once we hit 30 and get our damage resistance buff you're gonna be snared all the time!

[Xaranno]

The only thing that I would add is that you cant taunt while another group member is targetted. So, while others may be able to keep the MA targetted and therefore cast / hit its target without switching to the creature, the MT or aggro holder will need to use /assist  and keep the critter targetted. Im sure most of you understand that by this point, but thought I'd mention it in case somone didnt.

 

also, in theory it seems like a good idea, allowing the MT to switch targets for aggro purposes while keeping everyone else on the same target. In situations like this, I usually just call out what targets to attack if I need to do some switching.

 

Lastly, the only potential thing to watch out for is that these damage dealers, usually get eaten quickly, and having them pull also means they will get some hits before the MT starts soaking up the damage. In a solid group this would work well though.

 

Personally, I prefer to do all the pulling and aggro management. I find when one person pulls and keeps aggro, it keeps it nice and easy for the group (a pick up group) to follow along. This new idea has some benefits in that our sentinel type spells will be more useful.

 

Anyhow, my thoughts.

[GenesisForgot]

There is zero reason for me to not be the puller. The initial attack gains substantial aggro and when you pull a pack ALL of those mobs are going to be attacking the puller. This strategy is just pointless and would take too long to explain to anybody. I've gone 22 levels with my current strategy with zero problems. If we die its because of adds not because of loss of hate.My strategy is simple:Group sits in a spot or comes with me if we are moving through an area (I tell them what to do).I pull with Anger and hit Shout while running back to group. I hit Hold the Line next and then Taunting Blow. I now have substantially higher aggro than anybody in the group and the fight has just begun. If we don't have an enchanter I will cast my AOE attack at this point for some exponential taunting effect (square the number of targets and you get # of taunts applied). Then I hit all my group / self buffs. Finally I repeat my Anger / Shout / Taunting Blow.If I am helping contribute damage I'll hit a Wound / Slam / etc. to add a bit of damage but usually I just taunt. As long as the entire group assists me I will never lose anger on the mobs except if:1. Assassin or other very high DPS character decides to drop a ton of damage at once before I've landed a lot of hate.2. Caster decides to melee while casting high hate abilities - regen, heal, debuff, etc.3. Chanter tries to mez a mob and fails before I've gotten off my first shout or HTL.Having a scout pull when monsters hit for 500+ dmg easily on anything below tank status armor is suicide. I'm sorry but at level 22 this is paintfully obvious and will only get worse as mob damage increases. Perhaps a monk could pull, but really, what's the point. The healers just going to have to drop more heals, meaning I'll have to drop more aggro to pull the encounter on to me. Its just pointless.

Message Edited by GenesisForgoten on 11-24-2004 06:41 PM

[GenesisForgot]

And as for our protection line of spells -I don't use them EVER. I should be the ONLY person taking damage in a group. If somebody else takes hits and I need to protect them - I'm going to shout / anger / taunting blow immediately, not try to cast a stupid defend skill with a 3 minute timer.Those abilities should not be used as part of a pulling or grouping strategy. They are for use in an emergency or with a dual tank setup, ie Monk / Guardian protector.

[GenesisForgot]

LOL furthermore, I only play in "well balanced groups" - ie, 6 characters, me, 1 or 2 healers, hopefully a chanter, and the rest DPS. If I am the "main dps" the group is screwed - Guardians do no damage.I mean seriously - the main DPS per group is most likely the least armored character. Having them pull is insanity.

[ozn]

Youll are making this too complicated. its easy, stand firm have some1 pull, assist them on way in , shout , rally cry then anger, battle tactics, call to arms , toughness, then if still couple mobs left start on next 1 by angering ,then hunker down, nobody will be takin agroo from you if every1 assists not oven on pull in                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ~~ buzzz ~~        oasis

[Dairu]

1. Pull with with bow

2. Return to Grp an AE Taunt.

3. HTL

4. Fighting Chance + Combatstyle + Taunt.

After that you have created a ton of aggro and it is almost impossible to loose aggro. At this point you have differnet options:

- Mezz and single assist.

- AE Nukes.

You can even change the assist lead at this point if you want.

Etablish aggro after the init pull is much more complicated then get aggro and hold them. The reuse timer on defensive abilitys like sentinel is to large and the gain from them is to low to use them as main part of your aggromanagement strategie.

Why regain aggro from an light tank if you can get and hold them without any trouble ? If your Taunt failes or your healers start to heal before you get the aggro from your puller then you are in trouble.

 

I am not am english native speaker but  i hope my post is readable

 

 

 

[Troy Spir]

I cant imagine "the tank" being the puller forever. All the lower level stuff i've done its worked out just fine, but when we get to the point were we need to "fish out" specific pulls and such a fast moving, utility casting, god-knows-what-else class is going to be a better "primary puller" than we are. I'd like to be the puller.. hell i'd like to be an EQ1 sk. But since i prefer to tank over pulling, gotta make a choice. If your still the puller and the tank 35+ levels later, SoE needs to do some class balancing.

[Mig]

I take it those who think this idea is "pointless" never use the sentinel line. Interesting since it's supposed to be our signature ability.

[GenesisForgot]

Yeah I use them but in emergencies like I'm supposed to. Most of them have a 3 minute timer and a semi-long recast. I'm not basing my entire pull strat on a couple skills that most likely aren't good enough to protect a poorly armored character from an ENTIRE pull.I'm thinking most people who are suggesting this havent' played to later levels. Monsters don't care who they are hitting and they hit HARD past 20. If you think a lightly armored fast moving target will survive a group of monsters beating on him like a guardian can - ESPECIALLY for the first few rounds of combats when most specials are dropped, you need to play more. This simply will not work. Regaining hate is so much harder than initiating combat to generate hate.Also, at higher levels you don't have to do crazy pull stunts like EQ1. We aren't having monks pull with Feign Death because thats not what this game is designed around. When you pull a group of monsters you pull the ENTIRE encounter no matter what. Its not hard to only pull a single encounter either, even in dungeons.This whole idea is just stupid. I have in excess of 1100 armor unbuffed at 22. Most people I group with have like 500 and a single special drops them into critical condition.If we are talking about having another fighter - ie monk or somebody pulling because of evade that is one thing. But there is absolutely zero reason for the main damage dealer to ever leave safety or gain aggro on purpose. This is suicide.

[Crus]

I must say I'm with Genesis on this one. It's alot harder to gain aggro from someone in mid fight than to get all the aggro from start by pulling. It seems like holding aggro is alot easier than getting aggro...

 

I have yet to try the original idea out though, so I'm not passaing a judgement on it yet I'll have to try it inpractice first...

[ozn]

I dont know if your pullers are pulling with taunt or using range item like they should but i have not 1 problem pulling agroo off with shout. heres how i look at it if u can be standing there holding the line thats 1 less thing u have to cast mid and less hps u gonan lose on pull in .. healer wont have to heal puller cuz youll have agroo  ~~~ buzzz ~~~

[will]

I agree with Migyb's  strategy with some slight alterations.

 

Main Tank -Obviously thats the Guardian

 

Main Assist - I agree up to this point "This is important.... this is NOT the guardian, this is a primary damage dealer who doesn't need to do anything in the fight but target mobs and whack on them. It should be a scout, mage, or another offensive tank like a berserker or a brawler. " This person doesnt have to be the puller. The main point of a main assist is to be a target anchor for the group.  For those of you saying you want to pull and have found it easier to get and retain aggro by pulling..awesome. I let the rogue/predator pull (in which case he is the MA and I as MT assist him for initial target) with the sneak attack which leaves him without aggro any way, but if you dont have one or prefer to pull thats fine too(though i havent had a problem pulling aggro from another puller in most instances).

 

The Fight-The way I normally do it is if I pull I have the MA assist me. Everyone else in the group assists the MA. I dont like using the target MA and click assist method. I normally have the group create a hot key with /assist saedso. That way they can see the mobs health while attacking. Once MA has a target MA doesnt switch target until mob is dead neither does any of the dps classes in the group. Having everyone assist the MA instead of me allows me to disengage mob, use intervene, or drop a taunt on the  mob thats attacking anyone but me. After gaining aggro I hit my assist MA key which brings me back to assisting the group kill the MA designated target. Once the MA designated target is dead my auto attack turns off automatically and the first mob that hits me is the next target. As soon as a mob hits you they become targeted automatically and i just hit 2 on my keyboard (the number corresponding to my autoattack hotkey). The MA assist me, the group assists MA and the whole process starts all over.

 

The reason that i prefer this method is because it allows the healer to heal who he/she must by using F1-F6 and directly there after hit the assist MA hotkey bringing him back into the fight. As stated earlier it also allows me to pull aggro and intervene where i must while still keeping the groups dps focus'd on the MA designated mob. Also if you have an enchanter in the mix it keeps everyone from breaking mez to have a delegated MA. Hopefully if you have an enchanter as a guardian you wont have to break off of combat to pull aggro but at least you have the option if the enchanter falls asleep with out all hell breaking loose.

 

I hope I was clear. If you have a better methods or suggestions lemme know.

 

Bone 18 warrior

 

 

 

Message Edited by willis on 11-26-2004 10:28 AM

[Rie]

An easy way to solve this is to ask your healers who they would rather have pull. Any healer worth anything will tell you that they want ONE target getting hit, that is the tank. And for those that think that they need to pull to Hold The Line don't know how to hold argo in a normal battle. The only time you need hold the line is in emergencies if you are the puller (if you are not, then that is why you need it). If you have someone else pulling you have them on the hate list before you and you will always have to keep yourself ahead of them. If you are the puller with anger/arrow, then shout on the way back to the group then you will not have to worry about argo at all as long as you continue taunting, unless your cleric has to compensate for a lot of barrage going on to other members or your members are doing stuff they shouldn't.

 

Having the non tank pull will also mean that the cleric has to heal the puller EVERY time he pulls from a distance, generating more hate for the healer.

 

I have seen both ways of doing this and will also be main puller unless there is a specific, one pull, reason not to.

Message Edited by Rielz on 11-26-2004 02:53 PM

[GenesisForgot]

furthermore, we have the most AC/HP there isn't a reason for me not to be pulling. I mean seriously. Mobs nearly insta kill people in light armor post 20 so its suicide to do this. why use intervien or single target taunts in battle? This means you are losing agro. This should not be happening to you.

[will]

"why use intervien or single target taunts in battle? This means you are losing agro. This should not be happening to you. "-

 

If you arent supposed to intervene (which builds aggro) in combat then when would you use it >< and if you dont have an enchanter what are you supposed to do other than intervene and taunt if you drop hold the line and someone pulls aggro from heals? As we all know guardians arent supposed to lose aggro but its gonna happen once in a while not to mention the fact that if you get a pop or wanderer add you have to disengage to taunt or intervene.

[GenesisForgot]

Um no.If I pull a multimob encounter I pull with anger, then shout, then hold the line / taunting challenge and finally bury. As long as everybody assists me the mobs will hit me until they all die. Even with wizards chaining AoE - even 3 wizards. This works at level 26 and isn't hard. Monsters aren't attacking anybody but me ever for any reason so I don't use my guard skills and don't have to bounce my target all over the place to single taunt.And I'm being 100% serious here. Even if we get an add and we don't have an enchanter, I can quickly tab over and hit anger / shout and tab back. I won't lose agro on that mob for awhile. I have sufficient AC/resist that the healers don't chain cast heals on me and draw aggro resulting in me having to gaurd/taunt, it just doesn't happen.

[JHappycl]

I may be missing something, but shouldn't you be using your guard skills as soon as you join the group? They last some time and if you do it at the beginning, you don't have to worry about having to target the person and use the skill. Also, if you're having trouble holding aggro, then, I dunno. I have yet to run into that problem.

[GenesisForgot]

The skills all have 3 minute timers except intervien. Which seems to not work as often now that I've leveled a bit and which I consider relatively useless.

[ArgosyAxeGrind]

Maybe I've been doing this wrong all along, but I cast intervene (on the healer) as soon as I join the group. Outside of the MT or healer, I seldom see anyone else grab aggro unless they are not assisting (as others have said). In those cases, I drop Stand Firm/Sentinel on that group member, and taunt like mad.

 

As others have also stated, I prefer to be the puller because holding aggro is my job. That's not to say that others can't pull, but I don't think there is an advantage to having any other group member pull that I've been able to see.

[GenesisForgot]

Nope their sure isn't. Anybody have this problem? - Cast intervien on priest but some point it switches to somebody else and is no longer working for the priest but another tank or something equally useless?