Expanding my Responses to the In-Game Trade-skill Poll

[Maisland]

The following represents my personal experience with trade-skills.  Your mileage may vary.

1) Leveling Trade-skills

From 1 to 10 I have no issues.  Just doing the trade-skill tutorial quests is all that is really required.

From 10 to 20... if the character has not yet done them, the trade-skill quests in New Halas will do the job.  I think the lowest level I have ever attained while doing these quests was 18.  If I change my mind after completing those quests and switch my trade spec however, the xp from just crafting is horrible, even with an xp potion and full vitality.  Using the daily quest from an apprentice helps, but not much.  The new crafting writ at level 15 also helps at first, but goes green much too soon.

Starting at level 20, I mostly use crafting writs to level since the change that made most crafting xp come from quests.

From 20 to 69 the writs are spaced horribly.  If they were even every 3 levels apart instead so that (for instance) the level 20 to 29 writs were:  20, 23, 26, 29 (instead of 20, 24, 29), it would help.

From 69 to 89, the writ spacing is great!

2)  Costs

I have pretty much given up on selling my crafted goods on the broker as most simply do not sell.  Worse, if I try listing a crafted item, I often find the same item already listed for less than what an NPC vendor would pay for it!  And selling to an NPC vendor barely covers my fuel costs.  This was more of an issue when I got more of my crafting xp from crafting instead of from quests and had more items that I needed to sell.  As it is now, if I make any items other than those for quests, it is usually just for myself or a friend/guild-mate.

Conclusion:  More quests, especially at the lower levels of crafting, better spacing of crafting writs and lower fuel costs (and/or higher payout when selling to NPC vendors) would satisfy me.

Again, this is just my personal opinion based on my own experience with 23 characters who have all taken up one crafting profession or another (some of which have changed professions).  Others may have differing experience and opinions.

[Nrgy]

Zarandar@Oasis wrote:

Worse, if I try listing a crafted item, I often find the same item already listed for less than what an NPC vendor would pay for it! 

That is a good thing IMO ... can make free money just by walking it over to a vendor.

[Anaogi]

Zarandar@Oasis wrote:

Worse, if I try listing a crafted item, I often find the same item already listed for less than what an NPC vendor would pay for it!

More a markets problem than anything to do with the mechanics or the basics of the object.  I've never understood the idea behind selling for below vendor prices, but some folks insist...

It would probably also help if more of the stuff that can be crafted was actually useful to most players, but that's something for an entirely different thread.

[Mermut]

The question on if we charge people... I would have liked a 'charge fuel cost option'. It's not 'selling' for a profit, but it's not doing it for free either.

[Maisland]

Nrgy wrote:

Zarandar@Oasis wrote:

Worse, if I try listing a crafted item, I often find the same item already listed for less than what an NPC vendor would pay for it! 

That is a good thing IMO ... can make free money just by walking it over to a vendor.

It would be, if the people had sales displays in their homes... and the broker fees didn't eat up the profit.

[Maisland]

Anaogi@Permafrost wrote:

Zarandar@Oasis wrote:

Worse, if I try listing a crafted item, I often find the same item already listed for less than what an NPC vendor would pay for it!

More a markets problem than anything to do with the mechanics or the basics of the object.  I've never understood the idea behind selling for below vendor prices, but some folks insist...

It would probably also help if more of the stuff that can be crafted was actually useful to most players, but that's something for an entirely different thread.

Agreed,it would definitely be better if more of the crafted goods were useful...  but if the fuel costs were lower and/or the NPC vendor payout was higher, it wouldn't be as much of an annoyance having to sell the stuff to NPC vendors.

As it is...

My tailor can't even sell bags or the appearance items she can craft for a decent profit because you can get the largest bags (equal to the highest tier bags made with rares) and better looking appearance items on the marketplace.  The adventure gear that she can craft is mostly worthless... as is the adventure gear that pretty much every other crafter can make.

Even furniture doesn't sell well... because there is better looking stuff on the marketplace... and anyone with any sense will have a prestige home, so even the status reduction of the crafted furniture no longer adds any market value.

Crafting journeyman spell/ability upgrades is a joke, I don't even bother trying to list those on the broker... and I save my rares to make expert level upgrades for my own alts.

The non-rare harvested mats saturate the market... and you can't even sell that stuff to an NPC vendor, so you are stuck either listing it on the broker for 1 copper and hoping it sells, or trashing it.

[Tollymore]

Zarandar,

This is Tolly from Crazy Tolly's Discount Adorning and Crazy Tolly's Weapons, and I make good money as a crafter. I regularily butt against the plat limit for a FTP player, and have to sink the money into my guild's gearing fund and into my reactant collection.

You put your finger on some of the issues - dropped gear being far superior to handcrafted - but the keys are what you didnt mention.

Firstly, everyone can make Mastercrafted. Everyone and their dog has an alt or a guildie. At the moment - and this wont last - you have reactant recepies that not all crafters have. These are your stock in trade.

Secondly, its all about getting the materials at a better price than the customer can. Crazy Tolly's Adorning can undercut the AH by half and leave him with a profit margin because I understand how the market works (clue : its the exquisite chests dropped by bosses, and the number of people who like MC gear is way higher than the number of people who like harvesting). Crazy Tolly's Weapons can work because I buy cheap reactants, from the tiers that sell, when they are there. Oh yeah, and Im not using the AH for adorn sales, because I dont want to get involved in price wars - I want to convince my customer I offer them the chance to become Affordably Overpowered, and that means I need the competition to be expensive.

Thirdly, its all about the customer. You're flat out wrong about the influence of the Marketplace - where Tolly is from, 2000 SC sells for 400 plat, and that means the 550 SC you pay for a 44 slot backpack is worth 100 plat or so ... and thats a lot to pay for an extra 4 slots over a box made of pack-ponied commons.

Fourthly, its all about the customer. You want to identify new players, unguilded players and small guilds that dont have all the slots filled, and you want to be their go-to person when they need stuff. This includes the most important thing you can offer, which is consulting services - what look do they want in their house or on their character, and how can you help them do it with the budget they have.

Finally, SOE fixing these issues wont fix it, as long as you are one crafter among zillions on the server with half a dozen alts, all of whom make everything. Your only way around this is to be the crafter with the personal relationship with the customer.

Yes, this is hard work. Frankly, its sales and marketing, not crafting. But if you dont do it, you'll continue to whine that everyone else with six alts is in the same market you're in.

[SisterTheresa]

Good lord, this is a game not a business.

Well I guess to some it is.

As an armorer, my craft is pretty much worthless unless someone wants a shawl piece or PoP item.  Still getting recipies for my apprentice.  No point making any armor, might as well just sell the rares.

My sage hasn't sold much of anything now since people can just research easily up to Master.

Jeweler not realyl either as new quested stuff is better.

Tailor ... bah not even.

I started these crafters to help guildmates and myself mainly, but looking at the market ... unlss they start making those items viable again (and not just furnature and notebooks) I really don't see crafting being a viable skill.  Now I do have a 450 muter and a soon to me 450 adorner.  I get some coin with the adornments but not as much as I could making armor.

If you are on AB though, I have no problem making things for free if a person has all the materials.  Heck some days I'll even give stuff away.

As for leveling tradeskill level, I found the quests in Odin areas got be from 80 on very quickly, so that was a plus.

[Tollymore]

Ridolain@Antonia Bayle wrote:

As an armorer, my craft is pretty much worthless unless someone wants a shawl piece or PoP item.  Still getting recipies for my apprentice.  No point making any armor, might as well just sell the rares.

If you are on AB though, I have no problem making things for free if a person has all the materials.  Heck some days I'll even give stuff away.

When the same people complain *both* about not being able to make money *AND* proudly give stuff away, I want to scream.

Tolly, generally, doesnt work for tips. I source the mats, and quote a price.

Because I know what to source and when, he makes a living.

[Cyliena]

Mermut wrote:

The question on if we charge people... I would have liked a 'charge fuel cost option'. It's not 'selling' for a profit, but it's not doing it for free either.

Yes, this was probably the question I didn't like the responses of the most. As long as people supply the rare and fuel (or pay for the fuel I use) I don't mind doing the combine if I'm not busy.

More often than not people will tip also, so I was surprised that there was no option for "I do combines for tips" in there. It's not me charging them but if they want to give me extra money for the combine, great.

[Katz]

Cyliena wrote:

Mermut wrote:

The question on if we charge people... I would have liked a 'charge fuel cost option'. It's not 'selling' for a profit, but it's not doing it for free either.

Yes, this was probably the question I didn't like the responses of the most. As long as people supply the rare and fuel (or pay for the fuel I use) I don't mind doing the combine if I'm not busy.

More often than not people will tip also, so I was surprised that there was no option for "I do combines for tips" in there. It's not me charging them but if they want to give me extra money for the combine, great.

Agreed.  I ask for fuel costs if they are significant and rares if needed for the combines.

[Citadelli]

I think it really depends on the class too.

When my gal was leveling her carpentor she was RAKING in the money making sub 80 items.  Like by 20/30 plat a day off stuff most might think is junk that was level 30s and such.

I'm not a good crafter, so my opinion might not matter.  But from the ones i've leveled at least until lvl 50 without AA placements or the quests it really is painful.  Especially on something like a provisioner who has every single writ roll 6 different combines and sometimes hoping to different stations just takes forever.

[Wirewhisker]

An option that should have been added is, 'It depends on the situation'.

I make items for my guildmates, free of charge. If there's a rare involved, they must provide it. I'll eat the cost of the fuel, no biggie.

People outside my guild, I ask them to tip whatever they think is appropriate, and I don't look down my nose at what's offered. It's always enough to cover fuel.

I'd never consider doing it any other way, frankly, and I was uncomfortable not having an option to reflect that because I think most people act the same way or very similar.

[Mermut]

Wirewhisker@Antonia Bayle wrote:

An option that should have been added is, 'It depends on the situation'.

I make items for my guildmates, free of charge. If there's a rare involved, they must provide it. I'll eat the cost of the fuel, no biggie.

People outside my guild, I ask them to tip whatever they think is appropriate, and I don't look down my nose at what's offered. It's always enough to cover fuel.

I'd never consider doing it any other way, frankly, and I was uncomfortable not having an option to reflect that because I think most people act the same way or very similar.

Well said!

[Rijacki]

The poll had no "I would like to..." options.

I like making items, but I don't much these days, because, other than carpie, the 'quality' of the items I can make (outside of the new researched recipes) have become less worthwhile than what can be obtained -easily- through other means.

One of the most frustratingly annoying statements is now part of their sales pitch each week for the new Marketplace items:

Piestro wrote:

In addition to the items made by Norrath's amazing and friendly crafters (available through trades and the in-game broker),

What items? Other than carpenters, the rest of the classes have gotten very very few 'new' recipes (some none at all) and scant few appearance type recipes (many classes none at all) that could counted as "in addition" with most of the craftable appearance items being of dubious attractiveness. Even the crafted items with stats don't have much in the way of 'wow-factor' for appearances with identical appearance on the research items by armor type, no matter the level.

The poll didn't ask much that gives me hope for any improvements.

At one time crafting used to be my main activity in EQ2. It hasn't been for a long time. I still craft, but not with the same delight as I once did and not to make items they way I once did. Now.. doing the quests to get to level seems to be about the only point to it for all classes except carpenter. At least one class still has value in making items.

[Destria]

Wirewhisker@Antonia Bayle wrote:

An option that should have been added is, 'It depends on the situation'.

I make items for my guildmates, free of charge. If there's a rare involved, they must provide it. I'll eat the cost of the fuel, no biggie.

People outside my guild, I ask them to tip whatever they think is appropriate, and I don't look down my nose at what's offered. It's always enough to cover fuel.

I'd never consider doing it any other way, frankly, and I was uncomfortable not having an option to reflect that because I think most people act the same way or very similar.

This is exactly what I do, and I have never been stiffed on account of it.  People regulary ask me what I charge for X combine, and my reply is always the same "I don't charge, whatever for tip is fine." which is occassionally followed up with "whats the average tip for " at which I point out it tends to fluctuate a bit but "X is rough average for gem refine/ry'gorr, X for thurg; but thats a rough average, at times I get much more, and other times much less".  The point I always try to get across is that I'm doing a service to help people out, some people have more to spend then others and I understand that.  When I have alot to spend, I'm a very lazy crafter and pay other people very well to make stuff for me, even tho I could do it myself for a great deal less.

[SisterTheresa]

Tollymore wrote:

Ridolain@Antonia Bayle wrote:

As an armorer, my craft is pretty much worthless unless someone wants a shawl piece or PoP item.  Still getting recipies for my apprentice.  No point making any armor, might as well just sell the rares.

If you are on AB though, I have no problem making things for free if a person has all the materials.  Heck some days I'll even give stuff away.

When the same people complain *both* about not being able to make money *AND* proudly give stuff away, I want to scream.

Tolly, generally, doesnt work for tips. I source the mats, and quote a price.

Because I know what to source and when, he makes a living.

Pardon?

I don't make money OFF THE BROKER anymore.  Not sure where you got your info from.  I give things away when the person takes the time to gather the materials and come to where I am.  I am not a pez dispenser throwing stuff around.

I've seen your working in channel, pretty pushy and annoying as well.  Each their own I guess.

[SisterTheresa]

Rijacki wrote:

The poll had no "I would like to..." options.

I like making items, but I don't much these days, because, other than carpie, the 'quality' of the items I can make (outside of the new researched recipes) have become less worthwhile than what can be obtained -easily- through other means.

One of the most frustratingly annoying statements is now part of their sales pitch each week for the new Marketplace items:

Piestro wrote:

In addition to the items made by Norrath's amazing and friendly crafters (available through trades and the in-game broker),

What items? Other than carpenters, the rest of the classes have gotten very very few 'new' recipes (some none at all) and scant few appearance type recipes (many classes none at all) that could counted as "in addition" with most of the craftable appearance items being of dubious attractiveness. Even the crafted items with stats don't have much in the way of 'wow-factor' for appearances with identical appearance on the research items by armor type, no matter the level.

The poll didn't ask much that gives me hope for any improvements.

At one time crafting used to be my main activity in EQ2. It hasn't been for a long time. I still craft, but not with the same delight as I once did and not to make items they way I once did. Now.. doing the quests to get to level seems to be about the only point to it for all classes except carpenter. At least one class still has value in making items.

The above two comments are my sentiment exactly with my armorer.  What's the point of me spending time like I used to making the MC sets when you can go quest for BETTER stuff?  Really?  *sighs*

I would love to make some of those SC armor items as some have commented.  Would be pretty cool.

[Valeda]

I think Sony needs to play EVE Online for a little while and check out there in game economy system. It makes EQ2's look like a skit from Sesame Street. Not to mention EVE's contract system.

[Tollymore]

Valeda wrote:

I think Sony needs to play EVE Online for a little while and check out there in game economy system. It makes EQ2's look like a skit from Sesame Street. Not to mention EVE's contract system.

Nahh, not quite. Tier 1 modules are junk - the tier one meta 4's and officer modules you want for your ships are exclusively dropped. Most tier-1 non-ship manufacturing is purely for the purposes on mineral compression.

Tech 2 blueprint copies are made out of mob drops and faction - and EQ2 has plenty of stuff like that already (ie Thurgadin/Ry'gorr).

Implants are drops or bought with faction.

All manufacturing is a matter of get blueprint, put in lab cooker for X months to research, pour minerals in, wait Y hours/days/month to cook. Manufacturing ships in EvE is basically about sourcing and transporting trit, and with Red Frog and Black Frog, this is easier than it has ever been.

Subcombines are just annoying, and eventually get removed.

Freeform Contracts are a hive of scum and villany *by EvE standards*, which means you dont want to go within a million miles of it, in a game where scamming is other than 'working as intended'.

Want to Buy orders, on the other hand, would be a great thing to bring in to any game.

[gourdon]

The bottom line regarding crafting is that there are maybe three viable tradeskills for making money at all, provisioner, woodworker and alchemist.  Of those, only provisioner with the new tradeskill apprentice recipes is at all competitive for income/effort with adventuring, and that is probably only the case if you are a very mediocre adventurer.

If they wanted to make tradeskills actually meaningful, they would have the tradeskill apprentices working on actual items rather than recipes for them.  This would put a very hard cap on item availability.  The way things are, the on the new recipes will fall down to the cost of materials as the number of crafters with the recipes becomes large.  Tier 9 is already effectively dead since most level 90 tradeskillers have had enough time to learn all of the tier 9 equipment recipes.  The rest will be the same in the next couple of months.

[Ki'lum]

I have 4 lvl 90 Crafters + 4 that are leveling slowly as they learn the Apprentice recipies. I have no problems with lvl progression at all although as pointed out previously it would be nice to space the writ lvl's more evenly and steady quest progression from the start to lvl 90 would be nice too as an option to doing writs.

The only things I make at the moment are the Thurg * Ry'Gor armour*Polished Gems. Why? because these are the ONLY items that people ask for. I do not sell them (Not worth it in time/cost, I can make more money more quickly doing a couple of dungeons). I accept tips (Like most have mentioned here).

There is absolutely nothing that people want/need that ordinary crafters can make for adventurers that is not easier to get killing mobs (Generally with better stats). The exception to this is provisioner, but again I only make food for my toons because as soon as I place food/drink on the Bazar at a reasonable cost, someone will undercut the price.

The Tinkered items however would be useful and sellable IF the item use restrictions were removed. I.E - remove the 'You must be a Tinkerer of LVl X to use this item' also make them tradable and get rid of the 'Lore' aspect on them too. Many people would then buy and use a lot of tinkered items, Harvest depots, Mechanical Armour Repairers and even some of the 'Fluff' pets might be useful or just plain fun for people to use.

Adornments - there is money to be made in these, if you can be bothered to run around slaying mobs and Transmuting the drops. I hate spending my time doing this. I would rather quest.

[Arcturys]

Mermut wrote:

The question on if we charge people... I would have liked a 'charge fuel cost option'. It's not 'selling' for a profit, but it's not doing it for free either.

I would've liked a "I work for tips" option. I don't sell stuff to people, but I don't give it away for free either. I expect at least my fuel costs to be covered, but even that I don't demand. I just say whatever you feel comfortable with or whatever you think is fair.

gourdon wrote:

The bottom line regarding crafting is that there are maybe three viable tradeskills for making money at all, provisioner, woodworker and alchemist.  Of those, only provisioner with the new tradeskill apprentice recipes is at all competitive for income/effort with adventuring, and that is probably only the case if you are a very mediocre adventurer.

I disagree. I make money with ALL of my toons. I have one of each tradeskill at 90. It just comes down to figuring out which items are always in demand. I'm not making massive profits per item, but I make lots of little profits over hundreds of items that add up pretty quick. My spending habits have been getting expensive lately, yet my bank account is still growing rather than shrinking, and all because of the things I make with my crafters. ALL of my crafters, not just a couple of them.

[Maisland]

Tolly, let me guess... in real life, you are a used car salesman (or something similar).

Anyway... let me respond to your post.

1)  I play at odd times and usually for short periods.

2)  Did I mention that I am an alt-o-holic with a bajillion alts?  (OK, I only have 23 alts, but still...)  I try to log onto each alt at least once each play session, if only to check research.

3)  I hate spam and spammers with a passion and refuse to either buy from them or to join their ranks.

4)  I would be perfectly happy to skip selling to other players entirely and sell only to NPC vendors if I could get at least a 10% profit on my fuel costs.  The raw harvested mats I get free, either by harvesting them myself, getting them from my guild's harvesters, or from one or the other of my level 90 crafters' pack ponies.

5)  As for master crafted items... they sell for less than the raw rares on my server.  The stuff that is not master crafted is mostly worthless.  Different servers have different economies.

In summary:  I make more money selling stuff that I got from holidays and special events than from anything I have ever crafted.  I have pretty much given up on selling crafted goods to other players and mostly just make things for myself or friends (though I have set up a "store" where all of my alts have placed their sales displays and where I mostly try to sell the excess raw harvested mats that I don't need).

Quite frankly, at this point, the irregular progression of trying to skill up a trade-skill is more of a concern to me than selling the junk I can craft.  The secondary crafts (tinkering and adorning) are even worse to skill up... I have nothing but respect for anyone who has managed to get a high level one of those.

[Tyrus Dracofire]

making status house items is good, but it is hurting since most players are moving into status-less, or marketplace housing zones with no status.

then it is sad to see both handcrafted and masterpieces just wasted for status-rent house zones for nothing.

most marketplace doesnt include having the status point value.

only way to do something, once you buy home with status and game money, boom, all done, no more rents or bleeding out some status. it's too outdated.

save some status points for "elite" house item faction vendors.

anyway, that poll seem so limited and it seem to focus on fuel cost?

[Sunlei]

  Have leveled all my crafters by selling on the broker, mostly mastercrafted a lot of items sell really well. Most tradeskills have an item or two like health totems, arrows...people stock-up on.

Think my sage was the most boring,  adept 3s would sometimes sell..use to make them when we had the bonus experience for the first make of each item...once that stopped and they added research...that craft got so boring..my sage is dead and just a broker slave.

provisioners about the same,  it was great to make your own food/drink..these days with the cheap fabled food/drink (where did that come from? )..and the stacks of hundreds for sale.. this is a deadend craft aswell.

Think it was a mistake they nurfed a lot of the crafted stats..for example the 'tranquil' mastercrafted tailored items used to have slightly better stats than the mastercrafted cloth at the same level...now they both have the *exact same stats.*

crafting is sooo boring now. 

On that poll I wanted to check the box all crafting is bad,  though it's still good for making your own stuff...it's not much fun anymore for pure crafters that don't adventure.  

Think removing the bonus exp. for first time combines was the hardest hit for me with my crafters...that was the fun of my leveling crafters... would wait untill a new level and use that bonus.  Now there is no reason at all to make any of the non-saleable crap..unless one grinds for lvls or macros and thats no fun at all.

[Xanvarin]

Zarandar@Oasis wrote:

Crafting journeyman spell/ability upgrades is a joke, I don't even bother trying to list those on the broker... and I save my rares to make expert level upgrades for my own alts.

The non-rare harvested mats saturate the market... and you can't even sell that stuff to an NPC vendor, so you are stuck either listing it on the broker for 1 copper and hoping it sells, or trashing it.

Before mercs enabled me to solo OOA for coin, one of my money makes was expert spells.  To minimize the risk of having an upgrade not selling, I would look at my alts and make the next couple of tiers worth of spells/CAs they would be needing eventually and put them on the broker.  If they sold (and they often did), that was good,a dn if not, I could just withdraw them when my alts needed them.  If you don't have a bunch of non-90 alts tho, that might not do much for you.

Just yesterday, I was going to stock up on common T8 materials to do  a kunark facton grind on one of my alts and ferrite was going for close to a gold per unit and the wood was going for about 24 silver per unit, so there is definatly a market for nonrare materials in at least some tiers - and I think you will find T1 materials sell for outrageous prices as well (at least the ones used in tinkering).

Regarding the survey and my opinions on it...

Crafting is useful, and it is easy to level up nowadays, but when you run out of crafting quests, then it becomes a lot less interestign when you are just grinding writs or doing dailys for faction.  The problem is that the actual process of craftign has become so simplified that it is now failry boring.  I like being able to just whip up a set of armor on demand, yes, but I also miss the sub-component manufacturing aspect that crafting had in the days of old...

What I would like to see is a total re-thinking of the crafting system iwht some effort put into making the actual crafting more interestign and involved.  At the very minimum tho, I would like to see craftign events occur with greater frequency and have greater penalties if you fail to counter them.

[Xanvarin]

Double post - please delete