Daily Crafting Faction Grinds are Tedious and No Fun at All!

Deornwulf · 03-06-2012, 07:30 PM

Finally faced with the reality that I am going to have to grind Forgemasters of Thurgadin on each of my crafters as well as for my Artisan Epics, it hit me of how "unfun" the Devs have made gaining faction for crafters.

For whatever reason, someone on the Dev Team assumed that running a daily quest that takes 5 minutes at most over a period of 14 days or so to complete the DoV faction with the Forgemasters would make for an interesting and engaging experience. So much so that one can look forward to repeating the process on multiple characters if they happen to be crafters.

Are you kidding me?

The Devs couldn't come up with anything better?

I'd rather have the choice to spend 4 or 5 hours in a time of my choosing rather the hour or so the dailies take. Or, if the Devs continue to believe that making us wait equals making something a challenge, I'd rather log in once a week for +5000 faction rather than the +10,500 I could get after doing the dailies.

Regardless, grinding dailies is dull and tedious. Using them as a throttle is a cheap way out for the devs.

CoLD MeTaL · 03-06-2012, 07:53 PM

I am hoping that with what looks like a 'vector change' that we will see a lot of these things come to pass so that doing the same thing a 'brazillion' times with artificial stops like overlong timers will be going bye-bye.

But don't hold your breath.

Kuulei · 03-06-2012, 08:09 PM

Its a crafting faction and you don't want a crafting quest to gain faction? Ok some parts are not crafted, some is gathering. But you think you should just be awarded faction for walking into the city?

Just what do you want to do for faction other than a quest? Not all crafters are 90 adventurer so they can kill for faction. Adventurers seeking Thurgadin faction for adornments, must farm faction via the PQ's with a max of 4 cloudy shards every 24 hrs, they have a grind, just like tradeskillers.

Jaremai · 03-06-2012, 08:45 PM

The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".

I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.

Deveryn · 03-06-2012, 09:17 PM

Jaremai@Guk wrote:

The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.

Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.

Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.

Cloudrat · 03-06-2012, 09:29 PM

Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:

Jaremai@Guk wrote:
The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.
Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.
Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.

OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes.

Meirril · 03-06-2012, 10:28 PM

Cloudrat wrote:

Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:
Jaremai@Guk wrote:
The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.
Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.
Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.
OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes.

DoV Thurgadin faction caps out at 10k from quests, Ry'gorr use to be the same 10k until a second set of solo quests were introduced at the same time Drunder was and now you can quest to 40k.

After solo quests your looking at doing PQs for 1 or 2 cloudy gems per day (500 faction each) per PQ, and 250 faction for each instance. Oh, or 250 faction for killing x4 raid mobs. Rime gives Thurgadin faction, Kael gives Rygorr faction. ToFS gives no faction.

Right now, only 1 of the 2 PQs get done by enough people to award gems so your looking at 30 days of depending on 12 or more people to show up for a PQ minus however many Rime faction instances you can grind. Every 4 of them reduces your 30 days by one.

Having to do a simple solo quest 14 times over 14 days is trivial in compairson. You don't need to depend on people showing up for a public event. You don't need to depend on finishing the hardest version of it either, or getting half the reward. You also don't need to have a group help you. All you need to do is chase down 8 other crafters one at a time and pay attention for 6 combines and the shawl gets handed to you. I'm sorry this isn't instant gratification but if its so hard to wait you don't have to do this.

Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke.

Deveryn · 03-06-2012, 11:03 PM

Meirril wrote:

Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke.

I don't think many people would be able get their tradeskills high enough for that. Nevermind the fact that they need to adventure to allow for those skill levels to be reached.

Deornwulf · 03-06-2012, 11:41 PM

Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:

Jaremai@Guk wrote:
The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.
Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.
Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.

Your response baffles me. Either you think the daily crafting faction quests are fun, engaging, and a creative way to involve the player or you think crafters do not deserve to enjoy gaining faction. Which is it?

When I worked on my Far Seas Supply faction, I ran through the crafting timeline and enjoyed it immensely. While it did take a great deal longer than perhaps a simple daily quest would have, I got to see interesting parts of Norrath while gaining faction, coin, rares, mounts, tokens, furniture, and other interesting bits.

Compare that to running the Thurgadin Daily quests for 14 days. It should be obvious to anyone that cares about crafting and cares about the game that the Daily quests should be replaced by something more interesting and involved.

And what is this about digging a hole by waiting? Did I miss some other way to gain faction with the Forgemasters of Thurgadin that was removed from the game? That comment makes no sense what so ever.

As for Adventurers having more of a grind than questors so they deserve a coin to instantly gain faction when crafters do not, that is utter nonsense. There are plenty of ways to gain adventuring faction that are not available to crafters.

One could conclude from your attitude here and elsewhere that you really don't like crafters that much, regardless of how many you claim to have. Therefore, one must consider the source before following the course you recommend of preserving the status quo.

One should conclude that making parts of the game more interesting for the crafting segment of the playerbase is good for the overall health of the game. Anyone who opposes such improvements must have an agenda that does not want the game to be improved beyond their own limited needs.

Deornwulf · 03-06-2012, 11:51 PM

Meirril wrote:

Cloudrat wrote:
Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:
Jaremai@Guk wrote:
The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.
Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.
Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.
OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes.
DoV Thurgadin faction caps out at 10k from quests, Ry'gorr use to be the same 10k until a second set of solo quests were introduced at the same time Drunder was and now you can quest to 40k.
After solo quests your looking at doing PQs for 1 or 2 cloudy gems per day (500 faction each) per PQ, and 250 faction for each instance. Oh, or 250 faction for killing x4 raid mobs. Rime gives Thurgadin faction, Kael gives Rygorr faction. ToFS gives no faction.
Right now, only 1 of the 2 PQs get done by enough people to award gems so your looking at 30 days of depending on 12 or more people to show up for a PQ minus however many Rime faction instances you can grind. Every 4 of them reduces your 30 days by one.
Having to do a simple solo quest 14 times over 14 days is trivial in compairson. You don't need to depend on people showing up for a public event. You don't need to depend on finishing the hardest version of it either, or getting half the reward. You also don't need to have a group help you. All you need to do is chase down 8 other crafters one at a time and pay attention for 6 combines and the shawl gets handed to you. I'm sorry this isn't instant gratification but if its so hard to wait you don't have to do this.
Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke.

Which part of boring did you fail to understand? Nothing in this game is hard. The only limiting factor to any aspect of this game is the timesink involved. Timesinks are not challenges. Timesinks do not make things harder.

I completed the 7th Shawl and the Coldain Rings. There was nothing hard about them beyond the fact that they were both huge timesinks that could take months to complete if the RNG was cruel.

I do not find having to do 14 daily quests on every single crafter I have at all interesting, engaging, or creative. Making me take more real days to accomplish a goal does not make it hard or challenging in any way. It just makes it tedious.

As for the Adventuring side of it, using a daily quest system to throttle access is also unimaginitive and dull. It should also be changed so that if someone wants to spend 48 hours questing on a weekend maxing out Adventuring Faction, they can do it. However, since this is the crafting subforum, I was only discussing the crafting faction side of the issue.

Should a game really depend on Dailies to keep players playing the game? Are we really reduced to the push the buzzer to get the pellet mentality?

A more vibrant questing system along with a variety of means to gain ANY type of faction in the game would be far more engaging and creative.

Deveryn · 03-07-2012, 01:37 AM

Deornwulf wrote:

Which part of boring did you fail to understand? Nothing in this game is hard. The only limiting factor to any aspect of this game is the timesink involved. Timesinks are not challenges. Timesinks do not make things harder.
I completed the 7th Shawl and the Coldain Rings. There was nothing hard about them beyond the fact that they were both huge timesinks that could take months to complete if the RNG was cruel.
I do not find having to do 14 daily quests on every single crafter I have at all interesting, engaging, or creative. Making me take more real days to accomplish a goal does not make it hard or challenging in any way. It just makes it tedious.
As for the Adventuring side of it, using a daily quest system to throttle access is also unimaginitive and dull. It should also be changed so that if someone wants to spend 48 hours questing on a weekend maxing out Adventuring Faction, they can do it. However, since this is the crafting subforum, I was only discussing the crafting faction side of the issue.
Should a game really depend on Dailies to keep players playing the game? Are we really reduced to the push the buzzer to get the pellet mentality?
A more vibrant questing system along with a variety of means to gain ANY type of faction in the game would be far more engaging and creative.

I can't remember the last time crafting in an MMO was ever not boring. I can't really see how it could be challenging and fun and not waste any more time than it already does. You're right that timesinks aren't challenges and don't make things harder. The whole idea behind these dailies was to ease the pain of the old faction grind, which (again) was actually a grind.

To say that the game depends on dailies is false. 14 days is nothing and it's not like you have to subscribe to do them and get the rewards. If anything, dailies are there to remind you to get out of your seat once in a while. What's the rush anyway? Let's say you finish the faction grind in a few hours. Did that accomplish much? What did you gain by doing an actual grind to hit that 40k mark 13 days earlier? You got your shawl done. Now what? It doesn't sound like you'll be crafting much because that's tedious.

Deveryn · 03-07-2012, 02:03 AM

Deornwulf wrote:

Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:
Jaremai@Guk wrote:
The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.
Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.
Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.
Your response baffles me. Either you think the daily crafting faction quests are fun, engaging, and a creative way to involve the player or you think crafters do not deserve to enjoy gaining faction. Which is it?
When I worked on my Far Seas Supply faction, I ran through the crafting timeline and enjoyed it immensely. While it did take a great deal longer than perhaps a simple daily quest would have, I got to see interesting parts of Norrath while gaining faction, coin, rares, mounts, tokens, furniture, and other interesting bits.
Compare that to running the Thurgadin Daily quests for 14 days. It should be obvious to anyone that cares about crafting and cares about the game that the Daily quests should be replaced by something more interesting and involved.
And what is this about digging a hole by waiting? Did I miss some other way to gain faction with the Forgemasters of Thurgadin that was removed from the game? That comment makes no sense what so ever.
As for Adventurers having more of a grind than questors so they deserve a coin to instantly gain faction when crafters do not, that is utter nonsense. There are plenty of ways to gain adventuring faction that are not available to crafters.
One could conclude from your attitude here and elsewhere that you really don't like crafters that much, regardless of how many you claim to have. Therefore, one must consider the source before following the course you recommend of preserving the status quo.
One should conclude that making parts of the game more interesting for the crafting segment of the playerbase is good for the overall health of the game. Anyone who opposes such improvements must have an agenda that does not want the game to be improved beyond their own limited needs.

First things first: The "hole digging" was part of my direct reply to Jaremai about having to do 14 grinds. If you made 14 crafters, that's your own hole you dug for yourself. At least SOE helped you out with the daily questing.

I'm not getting into a big discussion or explanation about my attitude or my alleged agenda. Just because a person doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean there's something else going on. You could just have a bad idea. I like this system and I'm all for having nice things, but some ideas are a little too out there or they really don't help anything in the end. I could say more on this issue, but you've clearly made up your mind that I'm wrong before I say anything else.

Tigress · 03-07-2012, 09:21 AM

Kuulei wrote:

Its a crafting faction and you don't want a crafting quest to gain faction? Ok some parts are not crafted, some is gathering. But you think you should just be awarded faction for walking into the city?
Just what do you want to do for faction other than a quest? Not all crafters are 90 adventurer so they can kill for faction. Adventurers seeking Thurgadin faction for adornments, must farm faction via the PQ's with a max of 4 cloudy shards every 24 hrs, they have a grind, just like tradeskillers.

this mindset is why we are still stuck with it and dont have a token of loyalty. adventurers have to do it ONCE. crafters have to do it EVERY TIME. i completely agree with the OP.

Tigress wrote:

Rijacki wrote:
Yes, crafting is missing the scripts and other such. Domino's attempts to put them in (with the crafting instances and then with the shawl final combine) were met howls of protest.
thats bc she gated us with that 40K faction, which *MUST* be a daily grind. doing that once was enough for me. i may do it a 2nd time on my son's acct but that's it for me. if it had been follow this questline, plus a day or two of a "daily" and you have enough faction to complete the shawl quest, all 14 of my crafters would have finished it. as it sits now, only one has and i expect it to stay that way.
i realize that there's some who say "oh but its how you EARN it so i like it that way". i can appreciate and agree with that for the first time but on your alts, NO WAY. token of loyalty, dragon tablet, anyone?

Deveryn · 03-07-2012, 12:37 PM

Tigress wrote:

Kuulei wrote:
Its a crafting faction and you don't want a crafting quest to gain faction? Ok some parts are not crafted, some is gathering. But you think you should just be awarded faction for walking into the city?
Just what do you want to do for faction other than a quest? Not all crafters are 90 adventurer so they can kill for faction. Adventurers seeking Thurgadin faction for adornments, must farm faction via the PQ's with a max of 4 cloudy shards every 24 hrs, they have a grind, just like tradeskillers.
this mindset is why we are still stuck with it and dont have a token of loyalty. adventurers have to do it ONCE. crafters have to do it EVERY TIME. i completely agree with the OP.

That mindset has nothing to do with crafters not having a token of loyalty. It all comes down to the actual workload. Between the preceeding quest series and the dailies, a crafter will spend no more than 2 hours running around and doing these tasks. Adventurers spend a whole lot more time than that to achieve their faction goals. Just the process of getting the coldain's daily quest open at +10k took a lot longer than 2 hours.

Crafting and adventuring are two different games. There's nothing wrong with asking for / suggesting some new quests, but when you start asking for adventurer rewards, it's going a bit far and there's no way you can justify it. It's not a mindset, just a fact of life.

Rijacki · 03-07-2012, 12:51 PM

Aside from the return of the howls of protest about someone who adventures being able to get crafting factions faster.. I actually think they should make the Cloudy things usable for all the DoV factions, including the crafting ones.

Deveryn · 03-07-2012, 12:59 PM

Rijacki wrote:

Aside from the return of the howls of protest about someone who adventures being able to get crafting factions faster.. I actually think they should make the Cloudy things usable for all the DoV factions, including the crafting ones.

I could see that happening.

Rainmare · 03-07-2012, 01:52 PM

dailies are the way the do indeed not only 'make' you actually do the content, but make it so only the people that actually are willing to do it get the item.

yoiu can talk all you want about 'creative, active, and engaging'. it doesn't work that way. in fact I can only name 1 quest I've done on my paladin that fits that at all, and that's the epic. every other quest is basically kill 10 rats, fedx this to that person, and go click this object and come back and talk to me again.

what you actually want isn't the above. what you actually want is simply a fast way to get the faction becuase you don't want to be bothered to wait on dailies. don't try to spruce it up with I want engaging content. if that engaging content was harder then your daily, you'd do the daily cause it's easier. if it was made engaging, you'd come back adn complain you were bored after doing it the 2nd time, where's my token of loyalty?! creative usually means you'd either complain it was too hard and have to wait on someone else to write up a wiki, or complainging about all the runnig around you'd have to do.

all you really want is a faster way to get the faction becuse you don't have the apparent patience and/or desire to long in each character 1 tme a day for 14 days and get all of them all thier faction at the same time.

Giallolas · 03-07-2012, 02:21 PM

I did this quest line 9 times for my 9 crafters. Sure, it was tedious, but it wasn't that painful. So you don't want to do it again? That's cool, but I don't think that should force a change for the quest line. Crafting is inherently boring. At it's heart is your toon standing in front of a station and clicking on one of three to six buttons over and over again. I knew this when I first started the game and although I suggested changes, it didn't prevent me from continuing to live this life. That they put in actual quest lines for us is wonderful. That it sometimes takes me away from that station pushing those six buttons over and over again is a welcome relief. Even if I'm doing dailies to have that break.

I think that sometimes we get into this "us vs. them" mentality. Who are the crafters and who are the adventurers. We're all both of them. So you don't like to craft? You just missed out on part of the game, but you can still have a pretty rewarding experience without ever hitting one of those stations. So you don't like to adventure (I can't imagine why you'd even pick this game to play if you didn't at least like it a little)? You can still have a pretty rewarding and interesting game without doing much of that either. However, I believe the game is best designed for people who do both. There really isn't an us and them. If you're vested enough into this game to read these forums, post ideas and solutions, you're likely vested enough to play both sides of the game and therefore are on both teams. I sometimes tire of hearing how it's not fair to the crafters or adventurers because something is happening in the game. We're all beneficiaries of these said advantages and we're equally punished by the disadvantages.

Deornwulf · 03-07-2012, 10:15 PM

Let me throw this out there.

What if instead of having the repeatable quests as the only choice to grind crafting faction, there was a continuation of DoV quests that would result in max faction with the Forgemasters? The Dailies could be left for those not wanting to quest and the questline would be an option for those looking for something more interesting and interactive.

Spyrit · 03-08-2012, 02:57 AM

Ok, help, I am missing something.

People keep refering to 14 days of grinding i.e. 14 x 1500 faction = 21,000.

I have decidied to grind this out on my 9 main crafters but most of them start the dailies with a lot less that 19K. I guess I have missed something that gives me faction but they are all on "What Dreams May Come".

I am sure most of them started dailies at about 14K.

Any Ideas?

Meirril · 03-08-2012, 04:10 AM

Deornwulf wrote:

Meirril wrote:
Cloudrat wrote:
Deveryn@Crushbone wrote:
Jaremai@Guk wrote:
The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon".
I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.
Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds.
Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions.
OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes.
DoV Thurgadin faction caps out at 10k from quests, Ry'gorr use to be the same 10k until a second set of solo quests were introduced at the same time Drunder was and now you can quest to 40k.
After solo quests your looking at doing PQs for 1 or 2 cloudy gems per day (500 faction each) per PQ, and 250 faction for each instance. Oh, or 250 faction for killing x4 raid mobs. Rime gives Thurgadin faction, Kael gives Rygorr faction. ToFS gives no faction.
Right now, only 1 of the 2 PQs get done by enough people to award gems so your looking at 30 days of depending on 12 or more people to show up for a PQ minus however many Rime faction instances you can grind. Every 4 of them reduces your 30 days by one.
Having to do a simple solo quest 14 times over 14 days is trivial in compairson. You don't need to depend on people showing up for a public event. You don't need to depend on finishing the hardest version of it either, or getting half the reward. You also don't need to have a group help you. All you need to do is chase down 8 other crafters one at a time and pay attention for 6 combines and the shawl gets handed to you. I'm sorry this isn't instant gratification but if its so hard to wait you don't have to do this.
Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke.
Which part of boring did you fail to understand? Nothing in this game is hard. The only limiting factor to any aspect of this game is the timesink involved. Timesinks are not challenges. Timesinks do not make things harder.
I completed the 7th Shawl and the Coldain Rings. There was nothing hard about them beyond the fact that they were both huge timesinks that could take months to complete if the RNG was cruel.
I do not find having to do 14 daily quests on every single crafter I have at all interesting, engaging, or creative. Making me take more real days to accomplish a goal does not make it hard or challenging in any way. It just makes it tedious.
As for the Adventuring side of it, using a daily quest system to throttle access is also unimaginitive and dull. It should also be changed so that if someone wants to spend 48 hours questing on a weekend maxing out Adventuring Faction, they can do it. However, since this is the crafting subforum, I was only discussing the crafting faction side of the issue.
Should a game really depend on Dailies to keep players playing the game? Are we really reduced to the push the buzzer to get the pellet mentality?
A more vibrant questing system along with a variety of means to gain ANY type of faction in the game would be far more engaging and creative.

Each daily quest for Thurgadin has you either crafting a few items for a quick turn in, or running around the Great Divide collecting stuff. Then your done for the day and you can move on to something else. If your getting bored then its your own jaded fault for allowing yourself to get bored waiting for the next day to come.

The 7th shawl wasn't hard? Then I suppose nothing in EQ2 would be described as "hard" unless it requires a raid. I think anyone with that opinion is ill qualified to judge what is difficult and what is engaging.

And if someone is going to complain there is a token system for gaining adventuring faction so why don't crafters, you have to really understand the other faction system as well. The most important factor for Forgemaster faction though is it is only used for this single quest so it is absolutely intentional that it takes 2 weeks to gain the faction to advance the only quest that cares about it.

Adventurers on the other hand can't obtain yellow or red adornments without the appropriate velious factions. We're not talking about them being denied a single quest reward, but what is until the next LU a vital portion of raid and even instance progression. Most raiding depends on crit mit adornments, without the faction to buy them new characters are locked out.

Crafters that can't get a shawl? Oh, 1% and the ability to cut scintillating gems. Valuable? sure. Does it deny you from entering upper end crafting? Well you can't cut gems but other than that, not at all. Certainly you could do the shawl on one crafter and forget about it on the others with no ill effect. Adventurers trying to raid or do the hardest instances couldn't do so without adornments.

As for replacing faction grinds with or without mandatory delays with something else, good idea. How about elaborating?

03-06-2012, 07:53 PM	#2
CoLD MeTaL Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,217	I am hoping that with what looks like a 'vector change' that we will see a lot of these things come to pass so that doing the same thing a 'brazillion' times with artificial stops like overlong timers will be going bye-bye. But don't hold your breath. __________________

03-06-2012, 08:09 PM	#3
Kuulei Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 468	Its a crafting faction and you don't want a crafting quest to gain faction? Ok some parts are not crafted, some is gathering. But you think you should just be awarded faction for walking into the city? Just what do you want to do for faction other than a quest? Not all crafters are 90 adventurer so they can kill for faction. Adventurers seeking Thurgadin faction for adornments, must farm faction via the PQ's with a max of 4 cloudy shards every 24 hrs, they have a grind, just like tradeskillers. __________________ Kuulei ~ Warden of Test

03-06-2012, 09:17 PM	#5
Deveryn Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fourth Wall Rank: Emperor Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,302	Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. __________________

03-06-2012, 09:29 PM	#6
Cloudrat Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,560	Deveryn@Crushbone wrote: Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes. __________________

03-06-2012, 10:28 PM	#7
Meirril Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,552	Cloudrat wrote: Deveryn@Crushbone wrote: Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes. DoV Thurgadin faction caps out at 10k from quests, Ry'gorr use to be the same 10k until a second set of solo quests were introduced at the same time Drunder was and now you can quest to 40k. After solo quests your looking at doing PQs for 1 or 2 cloudy gems per day (500 faction each) per PQ, and 250 faction for each instance. Oh, or 250 faction for killing x4 raid mobs. Rime gives Thurgadin faction, Kael gives Rygorr faction. ToFS gives no faction. Right now, only 1 of the 2 PQs get done by enough people to award gems so your looking at 30 days of depending on 12 or more people to show up for a PQ minus however many Rime faction instances you can grind. Every 4 of them reduces your 30 days by one. Having to do a simple solo quest 14 times over 14 days is trivial in compairson. You don't need to depend on people showing up for a public event. You don't need to depend on finishing the hardest version of it either, or getting half the reward. You also don't need to have a group help you. All you need to do is chase down 8 other crafters one at a time and pay attention for 6 combines and the shawl gets handed to you. I'm sorry this isn't instant gratification but if its so hard to wait you don't have to do this. Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke.

03-06-2012, 07:30 PM	#1
Deornwulf Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 98	Finally faced with the reality that I am going to have to grind Forgemasters of Thurgadin on each of my crafters as well as for my Artisan Epics, it hit me of how "unfun" the Devs have made gaining faction for crafters. For whatever reason, someone on the Dev Team assumed that running a daily quest that takes 5 minutes at most over a period of 14 days or so to complete the DoV faction with the Forgemasters would make for an interesting and engaging experience. So much so that one can look forward to repeating the process on multiple characters if they happen to be crafters. Are you kidding me? The Devs couldn't come up with anything better? I'd rather have the choice to spend 4 or 5 hours in a time of my choosing rather the hour or so the dailies take. Or, if the Devs continue to believe that making us wait equals making something a challenge, I'd rather log in once a week for +5000 faction rather than the +10,500 I could get after doing the dailies. Regardless, grinding dailies is dull and tedious. Using them as a throttle is a cheap way out for the devs.

03-06-2012, 08:45 PM	#4
Jaremai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,271	The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14.

03-06-2012, 11:03 PM	#8
Deveryn Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fourth Wall Rank: Emperor Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,302	Meirril wrote: Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke. I don't think many people would be able get their tradeskills high enough for that. Nevermind the fact that they need to adventure to allow for those skill levels to be reached. __________________

03-06-2012, 11:41 PM	#9
Deornwulf Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 98	Deveryn@Crushbone wrote: Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. Your response baffles me. Either you think the daily crafting faction quests are fun, engaging, and a creative way to involve the player or you think crafters do not deserve to enjoy gaining faction. Which is it? When I worked on my Far Seas Supply faction, I ran through the crafting timeline and enjoyed it immensely. While it did take a great deal longer than perhaps a simple daily quest would have, I got to see interesting parts of Norrath while gaining faction, coin, rares, mounts, tokens, furniture, and other interesting bits. Compare that to running the Thurgadin Daily quests for 14 days. It should be obvious to anyone that cares about crafting and cares about the game that the Daily quests should be replaced by something more interesting and involved. And what is this about digging a hole by waiting? Did I miss some other way to gain faction with the Forgemasters of Thurgadin that was removed from the game? That comment makes no sense what so ever. As for Adventurers having more of a grind than questors so they deserve a coin to instantly gain faction when crafters do not, that is utter nonsense. There are plenty of ways to gain adventuring faction that are not available to crafters. One could conclude from your attitude here and elsewhere that you really don't like crafters that much, regardless of how many you claim to have. Therefore, one must consider the source before following the course you recommend of preserving the status quo. One should conclude that making parts of the game more interesting for the crafting segment of the playerbase is good for the overall health of the game. Anyone who opposes such improvements must have an agenda that does not want the game to be improved beyond their own limited needs.

03-06-2012, 11:51 PM	#10
Deornwulf Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 98	Meirril wrote: Cloudrat wrote: Deveryn@Crushbone wrote: Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes. DoV Thurgadin faction caps out at 10k from quests, Ry'gorr use to be the same 10k until a second set of solo quests were introduced at the same time Drunder was and now you can quest to 40k. After solo quests your looking at doing PQs for 1 or 2 cloudy gems per day (500 faction each) per PQ, and 250 faction for each instance. Oh, or 250 faction for killing x4 raid mobs. Rime gives Thurgadin faction, Kael gives Rygorr faction. ToFS gives no faction. Right now, only 1 of the 2 PQs get done by enough people to award gems so your looking at 30 days of depending on 12 or more people to show up for a PQ minus however many Rime faction instances you can grind. Every 4 of them reduces your 30 days by one. Having to do a simple solo quest 14 times over 14 days is trivial in compairson. You don't need to depend on people showing up for a public event. You don't need to depend on finishing the hardest version of it either, or getting half the reward. You also don't need to have a group help you. All you need to do is chase down 8 other crafters one at a time and pay attention for 6 combines and the shawl gets handed to you. I'm sorry this isn't instant gratification but if its so hard to wait you don't have to do this. Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke. Which part of boring did you fail to understand? Nothing in this game is hard. The only limiting factor to any aspect of this game is the timesink involved. Timesinks are not challenges. Timesinks do not make things harder. I completed the 7th Shawl and the Coldain Rings. There was nothing hard about them beyond the fact that they were both huge timesinks that could take months to complete if the RNG was cruel. I do not find having to do 14 daily quests on every single crafter I have at all interesting, engaging, or creative. Making me take more real days to accomplish a goal does not make it hard or challenging in any way. It just makes it tedious. As for the Adventuring side of it, using a daily quest system to throttle access is also unimaginitive and dull. It should also be changed so that if someone wants to spend 48 hours questing on a weekend maxing out Adventuring Faction, they can do it. However, since this is the crafting subforum, I was only discussing the crafting faction side of the issue. Should a game really depend on Dailies to keep players playing the game? Are we really reduced to the push the buzzer to get the pellet mentality? A more vibrant questing system along with a variety of means to gain ANY type of faction in the game would be far more engaging and creative.

03-07-2012, 01:37 AM	#11
Deveryn Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fourth Wall Rank: Emperor Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,302	Deornwulf wrote: Which part of boring did you fail to understand? Nothing in this game is hard. The only limiting factor to any aspect of this game is the timesink involved. Timesinks are not challenges. Timesinks do not make things harder. I completed the 7th Shawl and the Coldain Rings. There was nothing hard about them beyond the fact that they were both huge timesinks that could take months to complete if the RNG was cruel. I do not find having to do 14 daily quests on every single crafter I have at all interesting, engaging, or creative. Making me take more real days to accomplish a goal does not make it hard or challenging in any way. It just makes it tedious. As for the Adventuring side of it, using a daily quest system to throttle access is also unimaginitive and dull. It should also be changed so that if someone wants to spend 48 hours questing on a weekend maxing out Adventuring Faction, they can do it. However, since this is the crafting subforum, I was only discussing the crafting faction side of the issue. Should a game really depend on Dailies to keep players playing the game? Are we really reduced to the push the buzzer to get the pellet mentality? A more vibrant questing system along with a variety of means to gain ANY type of faction in the game would be far more engaging and creative. I can't remember the last time crafting in an MMO was ever not boring. I can't really see how it could be challenging and fun and not waste any more time than it already does. You're right that timesinks aren't challenges and don't make things harder. The whole idea behind these dailies was to ease the pain of the old faction grind, which (again) was actually a grind. To say that the game depends on dailies is false. 14 days is nothing and it's not like you have to subscribe to do them and get the rewards. If anything, dailies are there to remind you to get out of your seat once in a while. What's the rush anyway? Let's say you finish the faction grind in a few hours. Did that accomplish much? What did you gain by doing an actual grind to hit that 40k mark 13 days earlier? You got your shawl done. Now what? It doesn't sound like you'll be crafting much because that's tedious. __________________

03-07-2012, 02:03 AM	#12
Deveryn Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fourth Wall Rank: Emperor Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,302	Deornwulf wrote: Deveryn@Crushbone wrote: Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. Your response baffles me. Either you think the daily crafting faction quests are fun, engaging, and a creative way to involve the player or you think crafters do not deserve to enjoy gaining faction. Which is it? When I worked on my Far Seas Supply faction, I ran through the crafting timeline and enjoyed it immensely. While it did take a great deal longer than perhaps a simple daily quest would have, I got to see interesting parts of Norrath while gaining faction, coin, rares, mounts, tokens, furniture, and other interesting bits. Compare that to running the Thurgadin Daily quests for 14 days. It should be obvious to anyone that cares about crafting and cares about the game that the Daily quests should be replaced by something more interesting and involved. And what is this about digging a hole by waiting? Did I miss some other way to gain faction with the Forgemasters of Thurgadin that was removed from the game? That comment makes no sense what so ever. As for Adventurers having more of a grind than questors so they deserve a coin to instantly gain faction when crafters do not, that is utter nonsense. There are plenty of ways to gain adventuring faction that are not available to crafters. One could conclude from your attitude here and elsewhere that you really don't like crafters that much, regardless of how many you claim to have. Therefore, one must consider the source before following the course you recommend of preserving the status quo. One should conclude that making parts of the game more interesting for the crafting segment of the playerbase is good for the overall health of the game. Anyone who opposes such improvements must have an agenda that does not want the game to be improved beyond their own limited needs. First things first: The "hole digging" was part of my direct reply to Jaremai about having to do 14 grinds. If you made 14 crafters, that's your own hole you dug for yourself. At least SOE helped you out with the daily questing. I'm not getting into a big discussion or explanation about my attitude or my alleged agenda. Just because a person doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean there's something else going on. You could just have a bad idea. I like this system and I'm all for having nice things, but some ideas are a little too out there or they really don't help anything in the end. I could say more on this issue, but you've clearly made up your mind that I'm wrong before I say anything else. __________________

03-07-2012, 09:21 AM	#13
Tigress Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,739	Kuulei wrote: Its a crafting faction and you don't want a crafting quest to gain faction? Ok some parts are not crafted, some is gathering. But you think you should just be awarded faction for walking into the city? Just what do you want to do for faction other than a quest? Not all crafters are 90 adventurer so they can kill for faction. Adventurers seeking Thurgadin faction for adornments, must farm faction via the PQ's with a max of 4 cloudy shards every 24 hrs, they have a grind, just like tradeskillers. this mindset is why we are still stuck with it and dont have a token of loyalty. adventurers have to do it ONCE. crafters have to do it EVERY TIME. i completely agree with the OP. Tigress wrote: Rijacki wrote: Yes, crafting is missing the scripts and other such. Domino's attempts to put them in (with the crafting instances and then with the shawl final combine) were met howls of protest. thats bc she gated us with that 40K faction, which MUST be a daily grind. doing that once was enough for me. i may do it a 2nd time on my son's acct but that's it for me. if it had been follow this questline, plus a day or two of a "daily" and you have enough faction to complete the shawl quest, all 14 of my crafters would have finished it. as it sits now, only one has and i expect it to stay that way. i realize that there's some who say "oh but its how you EARN it so i like it that way". i can appreciate and agree with that for the first time but on your alts, NO WAY. token of loyalty, dragon tablet, anyone?

03-07-2012, 12:37 PM	#14
Deveryn Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fourth Wall Rank: Emperor Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,302	Tigress wrote: Kuulei wrote: Its a crafting faction and you don't want a crafting quest to gain faction? Ok some parts are not crafted, some is gathering. But you think you should just be awarded faction for walking into the city? Just what do you want to do for faction other than a quest? Not all crafters are 90 adventurer so they can kill for faction. Adventurers seeking Thurgadin faction for adornments, must farm faction via the PQ's with a max of 4 cloudy shards every 24 hrs, they have a grind, just like tradeskillers. this mindset is why we are still stuck with it and dont have a token of loyalty. adventurers have to do it ONCE. crafters have to do it EVERY TIME. i completely agree with the OP. That mindset has nothing to do with crafters not having a token of loyalty. It all comes down to the actual workload. Between the preceeding quest series and the dailies, a crafter will spend no more than 2 hours running around and doing these tasks. Adventurers spend a whole lot more time than that to achieve their faction goals. Just the process of getting the coldain's daily quest open at +10k took a lot longer than 2 hours. Crafting and adventuring are two different games. There's nothing wrong with asking for / suggesting some new quests, but when you start asking for adventurer rewards, it's going a bit far and there's no way you can justify it. It's not a mindset, just a fact of life. __________________

03-07-2012, 12:51 PM	#15
Rijacki Tester Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,842	Aside from the return of the howls of protest about someone who adventures being able to get crafting factions faster.. I actually think they should make the Cloudy things usable for all the DoV factions, including the crafting ones. __________________

03-07-2012, 12:59 PM	#16
Deveryn Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fourth Wall Rank: Emperor Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,302	Rijacki wrote: Aside from the return of the howls of protest about someone who adventures being able to get crafting factions faster.. I actually think they should make the Cloudy things usable for all the DoV factions, including the crafting ones. I could see that happening. __________________

03-07-2012, 01:52 PM	#17
Rainmare Server: Oasis Guild: Pillage Rank: Captain Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,982	dailies are the way the do indeed not only 'make' you actually do the content, but make it so only the people that actually are willing to do it get the item. yoiu can talk all you want about 'creative, active, and engaging'. it doesn't work that way. in fact I can only name 1 quest I've done on my paladin that fits that at all, and that's the epic. every other quest is basically kill 10 rats, fedx this to that person, and go click this object and come back and talk to me again. what you actually want isn't the above. what you actually want is simply a fast way to get the faction becuase you don't want to be bothered to wait on dailies. don't try to spruce it up with I want engaging content. if that engaging content was harder then your daily, you'd do the daily cause it's easier. if it was made engaging, you'd come back adn complain you were bored after doing it the 2nd time, where's my token of loyalty?! creative usually means you'd either complain it was too hard and have to wait on someone else to write up a wiki, or complainging about all the runnig around you'd have to do. all you really want is a faster way to get the faction becuse you don't have the apparent patience and/or desire to long in each character 1 tme a day for 14 days and get all of them all thier faction at the same time.

03-07-2012, 02:21 PM	#18
Giallolas Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 164	I did this quest line 9 times for my 9 crafters. Sure, it was tedious, but it wasn't that painful. So you don't want to do it again? That's cool, but I don't think that should force a change for the quest line. Crafting is inherently boring. At it's heart is your toon standing in front of a station and clicking on one of three to six buttons over and over again. I knew this when I first started the game and although I suggested changes, it didn't prevent me from continuing to live this life. That they put in actual quest lines for us is wonderful. That it sometimes takes me away from that station pushing those six buttons over and over again is a welcome relief. Even if I'm doing dailies to have that break. I think that sometimes we get into this "us vs. them" mentality. Who are the crafters and who are the adventurers. We're all both of them. So you don't like to craft? You just missed out on part of the game, but you can still have a pretty rewarding experience without ever hitting one of those stations. So you don't like to adventure (I can't imagine why you'd even pick this game to play if you didn't at least like it a little)? You can still have a pretty rewarding and interesting game without doing much of that either. However, I believe the game is best designed for people who do both. There really isn't an us and them. If you're vested enough into this game to read these forums, post ideas and solutions, you're likely vested enough to play both sides of the game and therefore are on both teams. I sometimes tire of hearing how it's not fair to the crafters or adventurers because something is happening in the game. We're all beneficiaries of these said advantages and we're equally punished by the disadvantages. __________________ Brian Ledgers, 92 Inquisitor (formerly Templar, betrayed by the god SOE) "It was more power efficient for me to rez you than to heal you"

03-07-2012, 10:15 PM	#19
Deornwulf Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 98	Let me throw this out there. What if instead of having the repeatable quests as the only choice to grind crafting faction, there was a continuation of DoV quests that would result in max faction with the Forgemasters? The Dailies could be left for those not wanting to quest and the questline would be an option for those looking for something more interesting and interactive.

03-08-2012, 02:57 AM	#20
Spyrit Server: Najena Guild: Aurora Noctum Rank: Officer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 257	Ok, help, I am missing something. People keep refering to 14 days of grinding i.e. 14 x 1500 faction = 21,000. I have decidied to grind this out on my 9 main crafters but most of them start the dailies with a lot less that 19K. I guess I have missed something that gives me faction but they are all on "What Dreams May Come". I am sure most of them started dailies at about 14K. Any Ideas?

03-08-2012, 04:10 AM	#21
Meirril Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,552	Deornwulf wrote: Meirril wrote: Cloudrat wrote: Deveryn@Crushbone wrote: Jaremai@Guk wrote: The difference is adventurers only have to do it once to 40k then they can buy a token for their alts - at least for Rygor and Thurgadin. Otters/gnolls are easy to raise on one toon and buy adornments (heirloom) for their alts. This will be made even easier once they make Cloudy Jewels heirloom "coming soon". I'd love to see faction tokens for both the snarks and the dorfs so alt tradeskillers can benefit from the grind and get their solstice earring and brell shawl without having to grind again. And again. And again. x14. Adventurers have more of a grind than crafters do. That's why there's no token. You can't even call dailies a "grind." You're done in a few mins and you only have to do it 14 times. Adventurers are running back and forth, here and there, doing quest after quest for small amounts of faction (250-500). If you want a real grind, have a look at the kunark factions or work the harvesting quests one after the other. THOSE are grinds. Things are fine as they are, but if you can come up with something better, feel free to do so. So far, people only seem to come up with actual grinds that take more time than the dailies, which baffles me. You dug yourself that hole when you waited all that time to work those factions. OK well then how about adv get one quest per day to "grind" their faction lol Last crafter that I had do earring I decided it was faster to level up 30 adv levels then do the adv quests for the faction and it was infinitely faster. 4 adv quests at 5k each took about 15 minutes. DoV Thurgadin faction caps out at 10k from quests, Ry'gorr use to be the same 10k until a second set of solo quests were introduced at the same time Drunder was and now you can quest to 40k. After solo quests your looking at doing PQs for 1 or 2 cloudy gems per day (500 faction each) per PQ, and 250 faction for each instance. Oh, or 250 faction for killing x4 raid mobs. Rime gives Thurgadin faction, Kael gives Rygorr faction. ToFS gives no faction. Right now, only 1 of the 2 PQs get done by enough people to award gems so your looking at 30 days of depending on 12 or more people to show up for a PQ minus however many Rime faction instances you can grind. Every 4 of them reduces your 30 days by one. Having to do a simple solo quest 14 times over 14 days is trivial in compairson. You don't need to depend on people showing up for a public event. You don't need to depend on finishing the hardest version of it either, or getting half the reward. You also don't need to have a group help you. All you need to do is chase down 8 other crafters one at a time and pay attention for 6 combines and the shawl gets handed to you. I'm sorry this isn't instant gratification but if its so hard to wait you don't have to do this. Do me a favor, go play EQ1 and get the 7th shawl. Then you might understand why I think the quest is a joke. Which part of boring did you fail to understand? Nothing in this game is hard. The only limiting factor to any aspect of this game is the timesink involved. Timesinks are not challenges. Timesinks do not make things harder. I completed the 7th Shawl and the Coldain Rings. There was nothing hard about them beyond the fact that they were both huge timesinks that could take months to complete if the RNG was cruel. I do not find having to do 14 daily quests on every single crafter I have at all interesting, engaging, or creative. Making me take more real days to accomplish a goal does not make it hard or challenging in any way. It just makes it tedious. As for the Adventuring side of it, using a daily quest system to throttle access is also unimaginitive and dull. It should also be changed so that if someone wants to spend 48 hours questing on a weekend maxing out Adventuring Faction, they can do it. However, since this is the crafting subforum, I was only discussing the crafting faction side of the issue. Should a game really depend on Dailies to keep players playing the game? Are we really reduced to the push the buzzer to get the pellet mentality? A more vibrant questing system along with a variety of means to gain ANY type of faction in the game would be far more engaging and creative. Each daily quest for Thurgadin has you either crafting a few items for a quick turn in, or running around the Great Divide collecting stuff. Then your done for the day and you can move on to something else. If your getting bored then its your own jaded fault for allowing yourself to get bored waiting for the next day to come. The 7th shawl wasn't hard? Then I suppose nothing in EQ2 would be described as "hard" unless it requires a raid. I think anyone with that opinion is ill qualified to judge what is difficult and what is engaging. And if someone is going to complain there is a token system for gaining adventuring faction so why don't crafters, you have to really understand the other faction system as well. The most important factor for Forgemaster faction though is it is only used for this single quest so it is absolutely intentional that it takes 2 weeks to gain the faction to advance the only quest that cares about it. Adventurers on the other hand can't obtain yellow or red adornments without the appropriate velious factions. We're not talking about them being denied a single quest reward, but what is until the next LU a vital portion of raid and even instance progression. Most raiding depends on crit mit adornments, without the faction to buy them new characters are locked out. Crafters that can't get a shawl? Oh, 1% and the ability to cut scintillating gems. Valuable? sure. Does it deny you from entering upper end crafting? Well you can't cut gems but other than that, not at all. Certainly you could do the shawl on one crafter and forget about it on the others with no ill effect. Adventurers trying to raid or do the hardest instances couldn't do so without adornments. As for replacing faction grinds with or without mandatory delays with something else, good idea. How about elaborating?