Why does SoE abandon things?

[convict]

The arena

BG's

PVP

DF

I would have rather seen any of the above instead of a FP overhaul. I'm sure there are others who would agree. I don't understand the amount of dev time that gets wasted. We see this with all their titles, as if they move on to something else (EQNext-Planetside), and bring in new devs (less pay for less experience) and let them "practice" doing various things with the game, but it never seems like it's anything remotely close to what players want. SoE seem to always do the opposite of what would fix something (pvp).

The last expansion kinda speaks volumes for what they're currently capable of.

[Nrgy]

convict wrote:

The arena  <- Never Fun

BG's  <- Unbalanced

PVP  <- Unbalanced

DF <- Incomplete and lacking

I would have rather seen any of the above instead of a FP overhaul. I'm sure there are others who would agree. I don't understand the amount of dev time that gets wasted. We see this with all their titles, as if they move on to something else (EQNext-Planetside), and bring in new devs (less pay for less experience) and let them "practice" doing various things with the game, but it never seems like it's anything remotely close to what players want. SoE seem to always do the opposite of what would fix something (pvp).

The last expansion kinda speaks volumes for what they're currently capable of.

[Bauglir]

I would have to agree.

The last expansion was a dissapointment. 

[Mohee]

More bang for their buck!

Not yours.

Sad but true answer 

I can't help but notice a lot of new players (at least on Freeport server) come from WoW. I've never played WoW but I hear the PvP is a big craze over there, so you'd think with so many ex-WoW players coming to EQ2, they'd want to refine the PvP aspect of EQ2 to keep those players for a longer term.

But then again, EQ2 has turned mostly into an impulse buy from the marketplace to please peoples vanity with their characters.

[MurFalad]

Add shader 3.0 to that list of abandoned projects.

Disappointed too, there is too much focus on producing things quickly, but none on longterm development, whether its improving the gameplay (PVP definitely needs it!) or a fundamental upgrade of the graphics engine (support for shader 1.0/2.0 was dropped years ago in Eve, even hardware manufacturers are dropping it now, but I guess our "upgrade" route is EQNext, likely to be a totally different game).

I'm sure that shader 3.0, BG's or other projects like it would never have been started if the true development time was realised, but I don't think the game can survive longterm if only projects that deliver a quick result are chosen.

[Jovie]

When the game was developed and launched there were two things they stated emphatically about that would never have much part in the game. PvP and raiding.

When you think about the grand scheme of balancing, both of those items cause more headache than they are worth and should be shelved. Naturally you may feel differently and i respect that but it is the truth.

[DariusIV]

MurFalad wrote:

Add shader 3.0 to that list of abandoned projects.

Disappointed too, there is too much focus on producing things quickly, but none on longterm development, whether its improving the gameplay (PVP definitely needs it!) or a fundamental upgrade of the graphics engine (support for shader 1.0/2.0 was dropped years ago in Eve, even hardware manufacturers are dropping it now, but I guess our "upgrade" route is EQNext, likely to be a totally different game).

I'm sure that shader 3.0, BG's or other projects like it would never have been started if the true development time was realised, but I don't think the game can survive longterm if only projects that deliver a quick result are chosen.

I have played WOW and many other games and I must say that PVP in EQ2 leaves a lot to desire.  It is going to turn away most players. 

It seems that it mostly consists of grinding Bg's and WF's until you have PVP equipment.  The developers really went over the top on how dependent you will be on equipment.  Lacking PVP equipment you may aswell fight naked. Even when you acquire a set of PVP equipment you can still expect to die all the time.  The learning curve is quite steep and will turn off most players.  Certain classes excel in PVP and dominate others.  They have a ton of CC and you will be down to almost no health in a blink of an eye.  Unlike other games there doesn't seem to be a lot of ways to break CC, nor have the implemented dimininshing returns.  You will be whacked for the same CC as soon as it refreshes.  

For those enjoying world PVP, there isn't any.  Other then getting ganked at the FP banker or broker or getting ganked in other zones.  Mercs help a little in preventing ganks, but bear in mind you have to carry money to pay them.  Another player will note that and keep ganking you until you can't afford to keep merc out.

[Raffir]

I like DF and use it quite a bit.  Dungeon Finder works well enough if you approach as a dice roll instead of getting a perfectly balanced party with appropriate gear every...single...time.

The challenge in DF is working with what the dice roll gives you....or at least trying anyway.  Not opting out every time the party seems iffy to you. 

The "Ooops..we don't have an Illy.  Well thats it , we can't do this instance" or " You don't X amt of CM" mentality bugs me more than any gear issue.

Try it anyway...you might surprise yourself.  You might die.  But its only a toon and the only thing you lose is a bit of time at time when all you are doing is wasting time anyway.

---------------------

BG's, Arena...have never cared for them

PVP....I have several toons on Naggy right now trying it out.  If there were more people in the lower zones, it'd be a lot more fun.  But, yeah..I agree.  The style needs work and they need to remove the Mercs..among other things.

Raf

[Onorem]

Junglelilly@Guk wrote:

When the game was developed and launched there were two things they stated emphatically about that would never have much part in the game. PvP and raiding.

When you think about the grand scheme of balancing, both of those items cause more headache than they are worth and should be shelved. Naturally you may feel differently and i respect that but it is the truth.

I've seen people say several times recently that raiding was never supposed to be a big part in the game when it launched. Does anyone have a link to an old story or something...because I don't remember that being the case at all. I remember them saying it about PvP, but not raiding.

[Bauglir]

DariusIV wrote:

MurFalad wrote:

Add shader 3.0 to that list of abandoned projects.

Disappointed too, there is too much focus on producing things quickly, but none on longterm development, whether its improving the gameplay (PVP definitely needs it!) or a fundamental upgrade of the graphics engine (support for shader 1.0/2.0 was dropped years ago in Eve, even hardware manufacturers are dropping it now, but I guess our "upgrade" route is EQNext, likely to be a totally different game).

I'm sure that shader 3.0, BG's or other projects like it would never have been started if the true development time was realised, but I don't think the game can survive longterm if only projects that deliver a quick result are chosen.

I have played WOW and many other games and I must say that PVP in EQ2 leaves a lot to desire.  It is going to turn away most players. 

It seems that it mostly consists of grinding Bg's and WF's until you have PVP equipment.  The developers really went over the top on how dependent you will be on equipment.  Lacking PVP equipment you may aswell fight naked. Even when you acquire a set of PVP equipment you can still expect to die all the time.  The learning curve is quite steep and will turn off most players.  Certain classes excel in PVP and dominate others.  They have a ton of CC and you will be down to almost no health in a blink of an eye.  Unlike other games there doesn't seem to be a lot of ways to break CC, nor have the implemented dimininshing returns.  You will be whacked for the same CC as soon as it refreshes.  

For those enjoying world PVP, there isn't any.  Other then getting ganked at the FP banker or broker or getting ganked in other zones.  Mercs help a little in preventing ganks, but bear in mind you have to carry money to pay them.  Another player will note that and keep ganking you until you can't afford to keep merc out.

People still use BGs?

Seriously though the WoW PVP was not much better from what you describe, unless you played specific classes you died a LOT.

[Jrral]

convict wrote:

The arena

BG's

PVP

DF

Well, right from the start the position was that EQ2 was a PvE game. PvP would, if it was supported at all, be a minor part of the game and wouldn't be a major focus. It shouldn't come as a surprise then that EQ2 attracted mostly players who weren't too interested in PvP, and that PvP-centric things got abandoned due to lack of player interest.

DF... not PvP, but I expect it's getting abandoned due to lack of player interest. A handful of vocal people wanted it because they have a hard time finding groups, but nothing in software can solve their problems. So DF doesn't work, can't work, and players don't want to bother with it so why put effort into it?

[Mohee]

EQ2 was never supposed to be big on raiding? Who said that?! lol

When EQ2 launched, there was about 20 raid zones when it released (8 in just the Fire and Ice/Deception quest series). Not to mention all the overland Epic's (which again, there were over 20 of them scattered throughout Norrath)

None of these were easy when the game was released and the level cap was 50...

[TwistedFaith]

Junglelilly@Guk wrote:

When the game was developed and launched there were two things they stated emphatically about that would never have much part in the game. PvP and raiding.

When you think about the grand scheme of balancing, both of those items cause more headache than they are worth and should be shelved. Naturally you may feel differently and i respect that but it is the truth.

I'm going to need to see some proof here because i'm calling BS. I have played the game since launch and the main questline at the end of the game was the prismatic, this involved a massive amount of raiding.

PvP has never been popular in EQ2, it has never been something the community has asked for yet SOE have tried and tried to get people interested (Arenas, BG, PVP Servers etc) all of which have failed. SOE simply doesn't listen to the communinty, the dungeon maker is rubbish, everyone told them so in beta, it's WAY to limited and boring, yet they pushed it through anyway. The dungeon finder needs to be made across server, everyone know's this yet SOE yet again ignore it and push a feature that nobody wants to the live servers.

[kahonen]

TwistedFaith wrote:

Junglelilly@Guk wrote:

When the game was developed and launched there were two things they stated emphatically about that would never have much part in the game. PvP and raiding.

When you think about the grand scheme of balancing, both of those items cause more headache than they are worth and should be shelved. Naturally you may feel differently and i respect that but it is the truth.

I'm going to need to see some proof here because i'm calling BS. I have played the game since launch and the main questline at the end of the game was the prismatic, this involved a massive amount of raiding.

PvP has never been popular in EQ2, it has never been something the community has asked for yet SOE have tried and tried to get people interested (Arenas, BG, PVP Servers etc) all of which have failed. SOE simply doesn't listen to the communinty, the dungeon maker is rubbish, everyone told them so in beta, it's WAY to limited and boring, yet they pushed it through anyway. The dungeon finder needs to be made across server, everyone know's this yet SOE yet again ignore it and push a feature that nobody wants to the live servers.

I agree with your sentiments.  When the game was initially released the first guild I joined was a raiding guild on the old Toxullia server.

There were raid zones and contested raid mobs everywhere - Feerott, Cazic Thule, Everfrost, Lavastorm, Commonlands, Thundering Steppes, Antonica, Enchanted Lands - there was even a Big White Worm raid near the giants in Thundering Steppes that players in their 20s used to do.  Plus, as you say, the old Prismatic questline involved a lot of raids - they never did fix that dragon!

EQ2 was derived from EQ and that has a huge amount of raid content.  Given the number of people that played EQ specifically to raid, I don't believe for a second that SOE would ever have said that EQ2 wouldn't place the same importance on raids as EQ did.

[Gravy]

Big on implementing ideas. But on follow through? Not so much.

[Raknid]

The "non-raid" claim for EQ2 is uninformed at best. The base game, that which existed before the launch of DoF, was heavily raid oriented. There have been a lot that were later mad group encounters. This might not even be a complete list.

X2s

Contested The Wailing Caves Lord Ree 16Contested Commonlands Ladon 22Contested Antonica Anguis 23Contested Thundering Steppes Braegana the Gailspear 25Contested Thundering Steppes Doomsquall 35Contested Thundering Steppes Grimfeather 37Contested Obelisk of Lost Souls Wurmjaw 38Contested Enchanted lands Cragshell 39Contested Everfrost Dreadwake 42Icespire Summit Everfrost Gale Monarch Eyildir 44Contested Rivervale Overfiend 45Contested Rivervale Ssilth Rageclaw 46Contested Lavastorm A fiery Apparition 46Contested Everfrost The Seraph of Stags 47Contested Rivervale Mangler 48Contested Feerrott Acrimoniad 49Maiden’s Gulch Lavastorm Vyr'drais the Vicious 50Contested Everfrost Ghost of Tundra Jack + Iceberg 50Contested Temple of Cazic-Thule Xiggalg the Fearfiend 54Contested Permafrost Alangria 54Contested Solusek's Eye Hand of the Caldera 54Contested Everfrost King Zatan 54Contested Lavastorm Asphyxia 56Contested Permafrost Knubbed 56

X3s

Contested Thundering Steppes Coldtooth 39Contested Nektulos Forest Agelidaes 40Trembling Lagoon Feerrott Alizasaur 40Contested Enchanted Lands N'Kzak the Unnatural 42Meeting of the Minds Feerrott Overlord Oxulius 52Contested Obelisk of Lost Souls Borxx 55

X4s

Cauldrons Hollow Nektulos Forest Descendant of the Torig 34Death Fist Citadel Zek Grumzod the Exiled 41Crypt of T’Haen Nektulos Forest T’Haen the Lost 45Shattered Stillness Antonica Archlich Uladain 50Miragul’s Menagerie Everfrost Ar'ticae, the Frostmaiden 53Commune of K’Dal Lavastorm K`Dal the Deceiver 54Vault of the Fallen Fallen Gate Trenda'loz the Caller 54Dythra’s Lair Feerrott Dythra, The Gloombringer 54Echoes of Time Commonlands King Zalak the Ancient 54Cove of Decay Thundering Steppes Rognog the Angler 54The Deserted Mine Zek Tremblar the Behemoth 54Drayek’s Chamber Permafrost King Drayek 54Sanctum of Fear Temple of Cazic-Thule Niscanith 54Spirits of the Lost Feerrott Ukdan the Dark 55 Contested Temple of Cazic-Thule Venekor 55Contested Permafrost Vision of Vox 57Vox’s Chamber Permafrost Vision of Vox 57Contested Feerrott Vaz'Gok the Cursed 57Contested Everfrost The Kra'thuk 57Contested Solusek’s Eye Lord Nagalik 57Contested Lavastorm Solusek’s Fist 57Isle of Refuge Antonica Darathar 58

[Mohee]

Recently, a lot of epics got changed to a lower epic, and sometimes heroic. For example, Emperor Fyst used to be an epic mob. The two big drakes that spawn in Antonica and Commonlands used to be x4's. Now they are x2's, actually might be heroic now (its been a while since i've seen them). The Undead guy in Cove of Decay required for Manastone, used to be an epic mob, now he's heroic.

A lot has been dumbed down. I for one miss them being epic, because you had to actually get friends together to kill it. Now you can just take a merc in there solo and wipe everything to the floor. Thanks for itemization to empower players, while keeping mobs the same difficulty.

[SpineDoc]

I'll bet that new ideas fly really well at the meetings where SJ (and previous producers) have to justify their jobs.  Lots of powerpoint presentations, financial predictions and bar graphs will be produced to illustrate just how incredible their new feature will be and how much profit it will bring in.  Fast forward to after it is implemented and everyone realizes it's not going to bring in a lot of profit as previously envisioned and they move on to their next "new" feature, happy because they preserved their job for just a bit longer.

[Umbrage]

I have been playing Star Wars The Old Republic.  They too are into this concept of trying to develop an MMO and then have PVP in the game....all the pvp'ers are mad and threatening to quit and all the MMO sandboxers are mad and threatening to quit.

It just does not work. 

When Nagafen first came out I rolled a toon and pvp'ed till I died like 100 trillion times and thought okay why is this happening.....then I realized that the guys I were fighting were 6-8 levels higher then me....had master spells because they were in a guild that was dedicated to stomping everyone so they were grinding all skills necessary to excell and have the BEST gear available.  They grouped to raid dungeons for fabled and here I was solo'ing and trying to be in a PVP environment.

The basics of PVP in an MMO....is flawed, broken and will NEVER work.  Ever.

Star craft 2 has a novel idea of placing everyone in leagues....bronze, silver, gold, platinum, diamond, masters and grandmasters......trying to keep skill levels competitive.  Every MATCH starts from scratch...as if its your first day in the game.....you are pitted against someone of YOUR SKILL LEVEL....and the game is sorta fair.

The SOONER companies realize that PVP will never work in a sandbox MMO the sooner we will see real PVP games and real MMO's......but greed drives them...

They want both PVP'ers and MMO'ers and the product they deliver leaves both groups frustrated, angry and looking for a new game.

The sooner they learn...the sooner the MMO and PVP gaming industry will truly succeed.

[Aneova]

convict wrote:

The arena

BG's

PVP

DF

I would have rather seen any of the above instead of a FP overhaul. I'm sure there are others who would agree. I don't understand the amount of dev time that gets wasted. We see this with all their titles, as if they move on to something else (EQNext-Planetside), and bring in new devs (less pay for less experience) and let them "practice" doing various things with the game, but it never seems like it's anything remotely close to what players want. SoE seem to always do the opposite of what would fix something (pvp).

The last expansion kinda speaks volumes for what they're currently capable of.

They did, and here's how

First they put in arena's to give a PVP option, no one played it, they revamped it was used for a while then it was again abandoned by the player base. True PVP gets added in for a while it thrives though it constantly winds up effecting PVE servers when ever something could be exploited. Arena 3.0 Arrives with BG's folks cheer for the chance to PVP with their PVE toons PVPer's groan in complaint. Arena 3.5 arrives with Dungeon Maker and from what I've heard... it's just as bad as the arena was. As for Dungeon Finder... I can't go into that without getting a 3 day ban from the forums.

EDITED: cause i got fat fingers.

[Yaggaz]

Remember the animation/skeletal system overhaul? Think that got scrapped long ago.

After seeing the Freeport overhaul though, I'm praying their current team of... ~ahem~ "artists" aren't allowed to ever overhaul any part of classic EQ2's art ever again.