why change heroic aa level requirement to 85?

Silverzx · 09-07-2011, 10:45 PM

it was level 81 requirement for the longest time, then changed to 80 from the GU 61, and now its 85?? Some of us have no wish to level to t9 since we do not find it fun there or already have 90s. What exactly are you trying to do by making the level requirement higher? whats the point even?

Iacon · 09-08-2011, 08:51 AM

Basically to keep the power creep in lockstep with each new expansion's enemies. Heroic AAs weren't added to help lower level people play old content.

Buzzing · 09-08-2011, 05:26 PM

Silverzx wrote:

it was level 81 requirement for the longest time, then changed to 80 from the GU 61, and now its 85?? Some of us have no wish to level to t9 since we do not find it fun there or already have 90s. What exactly are you trying to do by making the level requirement higher? whats the point even?

crono down...

thewarriorpoet · 09-08-2011, 05:47 PM

I am a big proponent for just let people play how they want to but I believe this was done for the affore mentioned reasons - smoothing out the power curve. As much as this is a joke right now (it was before but it REALLY is now) they the level of difficulty is generally used as a metric for fun. So if the game becomes trivially easy the thought is people will get bored. There are people on both sides of the camp so SOE has to try and strike a balance. My guess is that they feel the Heroic AAs will trivialize SF content.

If they had a clue and this game was well designed I would say they are trying to make the game have a consistant experience.

Silverzx · 09-08-2011, 06:51 PM

thewarriorpoet wrote:

I am a big proponent for just let people play how they want to but I believe this was done for the affore mentioned reasons - smoothing out the power curve. As much as this is a joke right now (it was before but it REALLY is now) they the level of difficulty is generally used as a metric for fun. So if the game becomes trivially easy the thought is people will get bored. There are people on both sides of the camp so SOE has to try and strike a balance. My guess is that they feel the Heroic AAs will trivialize SF content.
If they had a clue and this game was well designed I would say they are trying to make the game have a consistant experience.

you can argue level 85 is still OLD content. why not push it to 90? from 81 to 85? will pushing it 4 levels back really give the game a whole new experience, or will it just screw players who counted on it staying 81?

Fitz · 09-08-2011, 07:16 PM

No player should count on the end line to become relevant. It should be level 90, so stop complaining. You absolutely do not need heroic aa's after all the nerfing lower content received already. If it's a huge issue for you, level to 90 and chrono down.

Gwyrdd · 09-09-2011, 03:00 PM

Fitz wrote:

No player should count on the end line to become relevant. It should be level 90, so stop complaining. You absolutely do not need heroic aa's after all the nerfing lower content received already. If it's a huge issue for you, level to 90 and chrono down.

Hm, I've never heard the "level to 90 and get it over with" perspective before. I'll have to think on that....

Without the (probably counterproductive) sarcasm, no one is wrong to say that the Heroic tree is not required to be effective. Although I'm a "take it slow" player, I do have a level 90 that I PL'd up so that I could participate in the one-time Velious Transportation Events outside of the FedEx quests and fighting in the dirt over shinies. She doesn't have any points dropped in the Heroic tree, and is competent if not mind blowing for 90s content, in a group or raid. She's a little iffy solo, but not powerless. Correct: Heroic AA are not required, except by the culture of certain groups for certain content.

That said, here are some of my thoughts.

1. Considering everything that I see about how hard it is to grind AA, it seems doubtful that an over-abundance of AA is a universal problem. In other words, opening Heroic AA at 80 seems unlikely to make a maxed Heroic tree the default for players at this level.

2. If the criticism is that "Heroic (or any) AA (further) trivializes content," is it not true that achieving a higher level and chrono-mentoring has a greater such effect?

3. From my personal experience: I level lock to enjoy content roughly at level. It is true that I have been able to experience content originally designed for significant group difficulty, often without full groups, thanks to a number of advantages that were not available at the time this content was released: Alternate Advancement, the help of higher level mentors, certain equipment, and other factors. Even with those advantages, the content is not without challenge, and sometimes beyond my (or my small group's) ability to achieve. This ability to take on these challenges, often successfully, has had a positive impact on my experience of EQ2.

As I've progressed through the levels to higher and higher level content, the net impact of those advantages diminishes. (You know, it's funny. It's actually harder to interest people in level 80 content than it was for even older stuff. Maybe because of the pressure to join the cool kids at endgame, just 10 levels away.) Incidentally, when I say "content" I do not simply mean running a zone at speed without pausing to enjoy it, and grabbing loot. I include quests, including extended quest series that require multiple heroic zones to complete. Just finding, much less schedule coordinating, a number of persons interested in doing the set is harder still than a one-zone romp.

Someone who has been level-locking along may, like me, find themselves level 80 with 276 AA. They may find that a few Heroic tree AA do make a difference in their ability to succeed at this content, without having to take advantage of what I mentioned in point (2) above, when they cannot find a full squad. Or they may find that, in a full group, their group-mates really appreciate having a little more "oomph" on board. They may find that more opinionated level 90 players who choose to group with them suddenly do not treat them as "weak tagalongs," quite so much, although these opinionated 90s may still say "Level up to 90 and stop doing silly older content" on a regular basis. Hypothetically.

I enjoyed those Heroic AA during the brief time that I had them. I will continue to enjoy the content that I've level-locked to pursue, without them, although a lot of the stuff I hope to do is pretty darned hard with the small group I have that's interested in it too. (The team doesn't always share my enthusiasm for failing repeatedly at a really hard challenge until we figure out a way to pull off a win, either. "Can't we try again when you're 90 and geared?") I'll enjoy those AA again when I gain a couple levels, even if they (further) trivialize level 85 content.

DuneWarrior · 09-09-2011, 03:15 PM

Making the requirement for Heroic AA's be 85 would indicate - im sure others will argue that you need to grind more before or after but thats really not what im trying to do - that there is amble time to gain them while leveling up so that you can enjoy them and spend them during game play and grow with them to figure out how they work.... riiiight?

So... do you also want to buy that bridge i got for sale or that small iron construct in Paris?

The concept of locking of some AA's due to levels is in and of itself bogus as the only thing it signals is a restriction as to when it IS DESIRED that you have access, its got nothing to do with gameplay etc. etc. because we all KNOW that the AA exp curve is flawed - MAJORLY flawed.

thewarriorpoet · 09-09-2011, 03:51 PM

Silverzx wrote:

thewarriorpoet wrote:
I am a big proponent for just let people play how they want to but I believe this was done for the affore mentioned reasons - smoothing out the power curve. As much as this is a joke right now (it was before but it REALLY is now) they the level of difficulty is generally used as a metric for fun. So if the game becomes trivially easy the thought is people will get bored. There are people on both sides of the camp so SOE has to try and strike a balance. My guess is that they feel the Heroic AAs will trivialize SF content.
If they had a clue and this game was well designed I would say they are trying to make the game have a consistant experience.
you can argue level 85 is still OLD content. why not push it to 90? from 81 to 85? will pushing it 4 levels back really give the game a whole new experience, or will it just screw players who counted on it staying 81?

I was just offering a plausible, to me at least, reason for it. Though I expect they realized as soon as toons hit 85 they jump to DoV to finish the last five levels doing the quests...since a lot people do them anyways and don't want to waste time in SF if they don't have to.

thewarriorpoet · 09-09-2011, 03:57 PM

Zaktull@Antonia Bayle wrote:

The concept of locking of some AA's due to levels is in and of itself bogus as the only thing it signals is a restriction as to when it IS DESIRED that you have access, its got nothing to do with gameplay etc. etc. because we all KNOW that the AA exp curve is flawed - MAJORLY flawed.

I would agree with this is it were not the heroic tab being discussed. This isn't about adding to existing abilities (providing meaningful customization) or about gaining new abilities (save your last row which really should be a 90 thing). The heroics tab is nothing more then a flat out power increases in pretending to be something else. Do you want your power increase in the form of potency or critical bonus? For as Henry Ford said, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black". I don't care but don't kind your self by saying this is about options...it is about power.

Crismorn · 09-09-2011, 04:42 PM

OP is just trying to hide in obscure pvp level ranges, if he hits 82 then he is open to 90's.

He just wants the best of both worlds, hardly a good reason for a game change.

09-08-2011, 05:26 PM	#3
Buzzing Server: Butcherblock Guild: The Cartel Rank: Alt's/Inactive Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 317	Silverzx wrote: it was level 81 requirement for the longest time, then changed to 80 from the GU 61, and now its 85?? Some of us have no wish to level to t9 since we do not find it fun there or already have 90s. What exactly are you trying to do by making the level requirement higher? whats the point even? crono down...

09-08-2011, 06:51 PM	#5
Silverzx Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 282	thewarriorpoet wrote: I am a big proponent for just let people play how they want to but I believe this was done for the affore mentioned reasons - smoothing out the power curve. As much as this is a joke right now (it was before but it REALLY is now) they the level of difficulty is generally used as a metric for fun. So if the game becomes trivially easy the thought is people will get bored. There are people on both sides of the camp so SOE has to try and strike a balance. My guess is that they feel the Heroic AAs will trivialize SF content. If they had a clue and this game was well designed I would say they are trying to make the game have a consistant experience. you can argue level 85 is still OLD content. why not push it to 90? from 81 to 85? will pushing it 4 levels back really give the game a whole new experience, or will it just screw players who counted on it staying 81?

09-09-2011, 03:00 PM	#7
Gwyrdd Server: Unrest_old Guild: Rift Penumbra Rank: Senior Officer Lord Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 70	Fitz wrote: No player should count on the end line to become relevant. It should be level 90, so stop complaining. You absolutely do not need heroic aa's after all the nerfing lower content received already. If it's a huge issue for you, level to 90 and chrono down. Hm, I've never heard the "level to 90 and get it over with" perspective before. I'll have to think on that.... Without the (probably counterproductive) sarcasm, no one is wrong to say that the Heroic tree is not required to be effective. Although I'm a "take it slow" player, I do have a level 90 that I PL'd up so that I could participate in the one-time Velious Transportation Events outside of the FedEx quests and fighting in the dirt over shinies. She doesn't have any points dropped in the Heroic tree, and is competent if not mind blowing for 90s content, in a group or raid. She's a little iffy solo, but not powerless. Correct: Heroic AA are not required, except by the culture of certain groups for certain content. That said, here are some of my thoughts. 1. Considering everything that I see about how hard it is to grind AA, it seems doubtful that an over-abundance of AA is a universal problem. In other words, opening Heroic AA at 80 seems unlikely to make a maxed Heroic tree the default for players at this level. 2. If the criticism is that "Heroic (or any) AA (further) trivializes content," is it not true that achieving a higher level and chrono-mentoring has a greater such effect? 3. From my personal experience: I level lock to enjoy content roughly at level. It is true that I have been able to experience content originally designed for significant group difficulty, often without full groups, thanks to a number of advantages that were not available at the time this content was released: Alternate Advancement, the help of higher level mentors, certain equipment, and other factors. Even with those advantages, the content is not without challenge, and sometimes beyond my (or my small group's) ability to achieve. This ability to take on these challenges, often successfully, has had a positive impact on my experience of EQ2. As I've progressed through the levels to higher and higher level content, the net impact of those advantages diminishes. (You know, it's funny. It's actually harder to interest people in level 80 content than it was for even older stuff. Maybe because of the pressure to join the cool kids at endgame, just 10 levels away.) Incidentally, when I say "content" I do not simply mean running a zone at speed without pausing to enjoy it, and grabbing loot. I include quests, including extended quest series that require multiple heroic zones to complete. Just finding, much less schedule coordinating, a number of persons interested in doing the set is harder still than a one-zone romp. Someone who has been level-locking along may, like me, find themselves level 80 with 276 AA. They may find that a few Heroic tree AA do make a difference in their ability to succeed at this content, without having to take advantage of what I mentioned in point (2) above, when they cannot find a full squad. Or they may find that, in a full group, their group-mates really appreciate having a little more "oomph" on board. They may find that more opinionated level 90 players who choose to group with them suddenly do not treat them as "weak tagalongs," quite so much, although these opinionated 90s may still say "Level up to 90 and stop doing silly older content" on a regular basis. Hypothetically. I enjoyed those Heroic AA during the brief time that I had them. I will continue to enjoy the content that I've level-locked to pursue, without them, although a lot of the stuff I hope to do is pretty darned hard with the small group I have that's interested in it too. (The team doesn't always share my enthusiasm for failing repeatedly at a really hard challenge until we figure out a way to pull off a win, either. "Can't we try again when you're 90 and geared?") I'll enjoy those AA again when I gain a couple levels, even if they (further) trivialize level 85 content. __________________ ~~~Primary Gwyrdd Gwgoedwig~~~ Diplomatic liaison of the Gorowyn Council to the court of Neriak.

09-09-2011, 03:15 PM	#8
DuneWarrior Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 613	Making the requirement for Heroic AA's be 85 would indicate - im sure others will argue that you need to grind more before or after but thats really not what im trying to do - that there is amble time to gain them while leveling up so that you can enjoy them and spend them during game play and grow with them to figure out how they work.... riiiight? So... do you also want to buy that bridge i got for sale or that small iron construct in Paris? The concept of locking of some AA's due to levels is in and of itself bogus as the only thing it signals is a restriction as to when it IS DESIRED that you have access, its got nothing to do with gameplay etc. etc. because we all KNOW that the AA exp curve is flawed - MAJORLY flawed. __________________ "EQ2 is not a "free to play" game, so microtransactions are unlikely to ever have the "front seat" role that they have in F2P games" - SmokeJumper - 4/20/2010

09-09-2011, 03:51 PM	#9
thewarriorpoet Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 235	Silverzx wrote: thewarriorpoet wrote: I am a big proponent for just let people play how they want to but I believe this was done for the affore mentioned reasons - smoothing out the power curve. As much as this is a joke right now (it was before but it REALLY is now) they the level of difficulty is generally used as a metric for fun. So if the game becomes trivially easy the thought is people will get bored. There are people on both sides of the camp so SOE has to try and strike a balance. My guess is that they feel the Heroic AAs will trivialize SF content. If they had a clue and this game was well designed I would say they are trying to make the game have a consistant experience. you can argue level 85 is still OLD content. why not push it to 90? from 81 to 85? will pushing it 4 levels back really give the game a whole new experience, or will it just screw players who counted on it staying 81? I was just offering a plausible, to me at least, reason for it. Though I expect they realized as soon as toons hit 85 they jump to DoV to finish the last five levels doing the quests...since a lot people do them anyways and don't want to waste time in SF if they don't have to.

09-07-2011, 10:45 PM	#1
Silverzx Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 282	it was level 81 requirement for the longest time, then changed to 80 from the GU 61, and now its 85?? Some of us have no wish to level to t9 since we do not find it fun there or already have 90s. What exactly are you trying to do by making the level requirement higher? whats the point even?

09-08-2011, 08:51 AM	#2
Iacon Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Vigilance Rank: Short Stabbers Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 43	Basically to keep the power creep in lockstep with each new expansion's enemies. Heroic AAs weren't added to help lower level people play old content.

09-08-2011, 05:47 PM	#4
thewarriorpoet Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 235	I am a big proponent for just let people play how they want to but I believe this was done for the affore mentioned reasons - smoothing out the power curve. As much as this is a joke right now (it was before but it REALLY is now) they the level of difficulty is generally used as a metric for fun. So if the game becomes trivially easy the thought is people will get bored. There are people on both sides of the camp so SOE has to try and strike a balance. My guess is that they feel the Heroic AAs will trivialize SF content. If they had a clue and this game was well designed I would say they are trying to make the game have a consistant experience.

09-08-2011, 07:16 PM	#6
Fitz Lord Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 169	No player should count on the end line to become relevant. It should be level 90, so stop complaining. You absolutely do not need heroic aa's after all the nerfing lower content received already. If it's a huge issue for you, level to 90 and chrono down.

09-09-2011, 03:57 PM	#10
thewarriorpoet Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 235	Zaktull@Antonia Bayle wrote: The concept of locking of some AA's due to levels is in and of itself bogus as the only thing it signals is a restriction as to when it IS DESIRED that you have access, its got nothing to do with gameplay etc. etc. because we all KNOW that the AA exp curve is flawed - MAJORLY flawed. I would agree with this is it were not the heroic tab being discussed. This isn't about adding to existing abilities (providing meaningful customization) or about gaining new abilities (save your last row which really should be a 90 thing). The heroics tab is nothing more then a flat out power increases in pretending to be something else. Do you want your power increase in the form of potency or critical bonus? For as Henry Ford said, "Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants so long as it is black". I don't care but don't kind your self by saying this is about options...it is about power.

09-09-2011, 04:42 PM	#11
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	OP is just trying to hide in obscure pvp level ranges, if he hits 82 then he is open to 90's. He just wants the best of both worlds, hardly a good reason for a game change.