Sword&Board

[Zeuhl]

  So, I've looked around a bit and didn't see it, so here's my question. Is anyone tanking with a shield or is everyone just DW'ing these days? I came back to the game not too long ago and when I quit after RoK we were all still rocking bucklers lol.

  I am currently DW'ing while soloing and on easy fights but on the tough stuff I have a macro to switch to a 1H+shield. Just wanted to know if I'm just a scrub while catching up on gear or what... Thanks for any input. 

[tafkaga]

Not sure there's a right answer.  If you can get it done with DW then go for it.  If you are making things tough on the healer, go sword and board.   I use a shield in any circumstance where I am tanking, and otherwise if just adventuring I DW. 

[LygerT]

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

[circusgirl]

Your survivability will plummit without a shield, but you'll pump out more dps.  Dual weild if you think you can survive no problem, but if it's difficult content then you absolutely need to equip a shield.  

Just don't complain about survivability if you're not wearing a shield *eyeroll*

[Bruener]

Yeah.  I mean why should ANY tank be able to maintain top survivability while DW'ing or using a 2h....

[circusgirl]

Bruener wrote:

Yeah.  I mean why should ANY tank be able to maintain top survivability while DW'ing or using a 2h....

The equivalent tradeoff for brawlers is in going offensive vs. defensive.

But with that said, lets keep the brawler vs. SK fighting out of the zerker class forums.  This is not the place for it.

[sick720]

personally, right now, i run almost exclusively with a 2h (i havent yet gained access to another 1h that would give me better dps than the 2h) i almost never use a shield, because we rely on dps for agro, going sword and board lowers our agro. im wearing 4 parts EM raid gear 3 parts rygorr currently and i OT the EM raid zones. i HATE being forced into using sword and board, especially as we get no compensation for dps by doing so like some of the other tank classes.

[Talathion]

Craized@Splitpaw wrote:

personally, right now, i run almost exclusively with a 2h (i havent yet gained access to another 1h that would give me better dps than the 2h) i almost never use a shield, because we rely on dps for agro, going sword and board lowers our agro. im wearing 4 parts EM raid gear 3 parts rygorr currently and i OT the EM raid zones. i HATE being forced into using sword and board, especially as we get no compensation for dps by doing so like some of the other tank classes.

My avoidance is so terrible I just go 2h as well, I just don't see much of a difference in survivability when I switch.

Probably because so much happens for us when we get hit.

Theres almost no way I can hold aggro without getting hit... if we don't get hit gibe doesn't work, just one example, also 25% of all damage we take goes to take, its just stupid to go with anything else besides 2h or dualweilding.

Unfortunitely our survability is low, we need Blood Rage to be a percent based heal like Meditative Healing.

- Meditative Healing - Heals the monk by 3% at rank 1 to 15% at rank 5 when the monk takes over 40% damage

- Blood Rage - 33% Chance when hit with a melee weapon to heal for 700-1000 (Which isn't even 5% of 45k HP).

So basicly Monks have a 100% Chance to heal for 15% ON ALL damage (since mobs hit so hard)

Berserkers have a 33% Chance on only a melee hit to heal for 3%.

Blood Rage needs to be changed to percent based and heal for 10%.

If I was a Monk I would probably have alot more HP, probably up to 48k, So that would be like a 7200 Heal whenever I got hit.

But anyways, this game wasn't made for classes to ba balanced.

[Gungo]

Um meditative healing barely goes off since you need to get hit for 41% of your health in a SINGLE HIT, no multi atks, flurries, aoe dots, etc. If you want blood rage changed into the same exact thing. I think it will be a great idea to help you somewhat for raid tanking without it being overpowered in raids either (although its completely useless in all other content). It might be better if this effect was a secondary effect on bloodrage since its absolutely useless in anything other then raids. If blood rage had a striaght 10% heal it would be completely broken.

Furthermore you are intentionally increasing your damage taken by fighting in offensive stance without a shield so you have ZERO uncontested block And then complaining you take to much damage. If you dont see much survivability using a shield you should probably use ACT on those raids since uncontested avoidance is the only avoidance that matters there or stop fighting SOLO mobs because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Gungo]

Bruener wrote:

Yeah.  I mean why should ANY tank be able to maintain top survivability while DW'ing or using a 2h....

I know its like being forced into defensive stance to have ANY uncontested block/strikethrrough immunity.

We all cant be like bruener and tank in offensive stance using sword and board with knights stance giving us an extra 25% auto atk modifer and no delay penalty from dual wielding.

[Lcneed]

Bruener wrote:

Yeah.  I mean why should ANY tank be able to maintain top survivability while DW'ing or using a 2h....

I like how with just one line (not mentioning any class), Bruener managed to draw out a monk and a bruiser to post and defend the brawers class in a zerker forum.

You have become better at baiting!!! [450/450]

[Gungo]

Lcneed wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Yeah.  I mean why should ANY tank be able to maintain top survivability while DW'ing or using a 2h....

I like how with just one line (not mentioning any class), Bruener managed to draw out a monk and a bruiser to post and defend the brawers class in a zerker forum.

You have become better at baiting!!! [450/450]

Its not baiting when every single post of his is about nerfing brawlers and then lying about his own class.

[LygerT]

yes, and none of it belongs here.

yet my post gets ghosted.

[Thalesian]

Craized@Splitpaw wrote:

...i HATE being forced into using sword and board, especially as we get no compensation for dps by doing so like some of the other tank classes.

Just thought I'd retort to this as it's not exactly right: In defensive stance with a shield, every time we block an attack we cast 'provoking counterattack on our victim' which increases our threat. Granted it might not be wonderful, but it is something. In any event, if we're in a group and the main tank, we're there to take the hits primarily, not do dps. Of course our dps is linked in many cases to our ability to hold aggro so it's a trade off, but it's no good holding aggro if the healer can't keep you standing.

If you're having trouble holding aggro in shield & Board, just tell the dpsers to slow down a little bit, if they don't listen, just get in the healer's ear and tell them to 'let' one of the dpsers that continually pulls aggro off you die in battle. They'll soon get the picture. Afterall, being in a group is about... working as a team, oddly enough. .

[Thalesian]

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

As I said about, I don't agree. It's far simpler - and smarter - to tell the dpsers to hold back so you can keep aggro, rather than force the healer to work harder/over their limit just so you can hold it.  Of course, it depends upon the group you're with... Good groups are a dream to adventure with, bad group are, well... bad.

[Talathion]

The healer can't keep you standing when you don't have aggro and hes dead.

You also produce alot more threat taking a hit via mythical then you do that blocking buff.

[LygerT]

Thalesian wrote:

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

As I said about, I don't agree. It's far simpler - and smarter - to tell the dpsers to hold back so you can keep aggro, rather than force the healer to work harder/over their limit just so you can hold it.  Of course, it depends upon the group you're with... Good groups are a dream to adventure with, bad group are, well... bad.

you can disagree all you want, it is a playstyle of this game that DPS classes will DPS as it is their job. everyone in a group has to work towards a goal, sometimes some classes have to work harder than others depending on your group makeup.

if the healer can't keep up i obviously back off some or toss on a shield, if the DPS keeps up and dies i shrug it off and keep working as there isn't jack i can do about it. common sense should tell anyone that if they keep yanking aggro that they should slow down, if they keep dying it is their repair bill not mine. i don't bother telling anyone how to play just like i take offense when someone tells me how to tank not knowing anything about how hard i am working to do the job.

[Zeuhl]

  After almost a month without my post being answered there was suddenly a lot going on here. Been a  while since I checked hehe.

  Long story short I'm catching up on gear and sticking with my macros to trade from DW to sword&board. I just DW in offensive so mobs die faster unless I notice I'm spiking or the healer is struggling. Mostly I've only had to switch to the shield, its not often I've needed to go defensive. Been working well so far.

   Yes a DPS' role in a group is DPS but I make it a point not to group with people too stupid to control their own aggro. If you keep ripping aggro, unless I happen to like you I won't try and save you. After all, the instant you die I'll have the aggro right back...

[Thalesian]

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

Thalesian wrote:

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

As I said about, I don't agree. It's far simpler - and smarter - to tell the dpsers to hold back so you can keep aggro, rather than force the healer to work harder/over their limit just so you can hold it.  Of course, it depends upon the group you're with... Good groups are a dream to adventure with, bad group are, well... bad.

you can disagree all you want, it is a playstyle of this game that DPS classes will DPS as it is their job. everyone in a group has to work towards a goal, sometimes some classes have to work harder than others depending on your group makeup.

if the healer can't keep up i obviously back off some or toss on a shield, if the DPS keeps up and dies i shrug it off and keep working as there isn't jack i can do about it. common sense should tell anyone that if they keep yanking aggro that they should slow down, if they keep dying it is their repair bill not mine. i don't bother telling anyone how to play just like i take offense when someone tells me how to tank not knowing anything about how hard i am working to do the job.

It's strange, cause I do disagree with what you originally said, but I do agree with what you said in your last paragraph. Also, yes, it is far simpler keeping one person alive than trying to keep multiple people alive at once (I've played a healer for many years as well). Common sense should definitely play a role, but it hardly ever seems to in a group. However, not communicating in a group - it's not telling people how to play, rather asking them to work more insinc with the group - is a big mistake I think. Group work is all about working together/communicating to get a job done afterall isn't it? One just has to be diplomatic about it; There's definitely a right and a wrong way to go about getting any message across.

[Thalesian]

Zeuhl27 wrote:

  After almost a month without my post being answered there was suddenly a lot going on here. Been a  while since I checked hehe.

  Long story short I'm catching up on gear and sticking with my macros to trade from DW to sword&board. I just DW in offensive so mobs die faster unless I notice I'm spiking or the healer is struggling. Mostly I've only had to switch to the shield, its not often I've needed to go defensive. Been working well so far.

   Yes a DPS' role in a group is DPS but I make it a point not to group with people too stupid to control their own aggro. If you keep ripping aggro, unless I happen to like you I won't try and save you. After all, the instant you die I'll have the aggro right back...

Yeah, it's all about balance it think. And the great things is that players can successfully both tank in either/both setups I believe. Personally, I use sword and board all the time (soloing and grouping) and am totally AAed (the way I see it anyways) for tanking/defensive. Others like it and play the other way . Totally up to you. 

[Destraum]

Thalesian wrote:

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

As I said about, I don't agree. It's far simpler - and smarter - to tell the dpsers to hold back so you can keep aggro, rather than force the healer to work harder/over their limit just so you can hold it.  Of course, it depends upon the group you're with... Good groups are a dream to adventure with, bad group are, well... bad.

/fail.  It's far simpler to do your job and learn to play your class properly than to have the dps "hold back" because you can't hold agro.  If you have a Coercer/Dirge/scout xfer in your group and your tanking something.  There should be absolutely no reason you should be losing agro to a DPS class once you have built up sufficient agro.  Berserkers have the necessary tools to do the job they need to do.  And lets not forget, "letting" the DPS die because you can't hold agro also increases the fight because virtually every named out there this expac heals/death.  So, continue to follow that thought and make things more dificult for yourself, or, do what you need to do to do your job properly.

Things I would suggest you do is get a 2nd set of armor that IF your forced to go Def on a mob, adorn said set with hate and other such items.  Secondly, get a Virulent Ire adornment and apply it to a second ranged weapon item.  They drop aplenty in Thrones and this way you can swap it in/out during a fight to use if/when needed.

[Thalesian]

Roehl@Guk wrote:

Thalesian wrote:

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

As I said about, I don't agree. It's far simpler - and smarter - to tell the dpsers to hold back so you can keep aggro, rather than force the healer to work harder/over their limit just so you can hold it.  Of course, it depends upon the group you're with... Good groups are a dream to adventure with, bad group are, well... bad.

/fail.  It's far simpler to do your job and learn to play your class properly than to have the dps "hold back" because you can't hold agro.  If you have a Coercer/Dirge/scout xfer in your group and your tanking something.  There should be absolutely no reason you should be losing agro to a DPS class once you have built up sufficient agro.  Berserkers have the necessary tools to do the job they need to do.  And lets not forget, "letting" the DPS die because you can't hold agro also increases the fight because virtually every named out there this expac heals/death.  So, continue to follow that thought and make things more dificult for yourself, or, do what you need to do to do your job properly.

Things I would suggest you do is get a 2nd set of armor that IF your forced to go Def on a mob, adorn said set with hate and other such items.  Secondly, get a Virulent Ire adornment and apply it to a second ranged weapon item.  They drop aplenty in Thrones and this way you can swap it in/out during a fight to use if/when needed.

Lol, you fool. I'm not talking about myself, i'm talking in general. So take your childish '/fails' somewhere else.

[Zeuhl]

Roehl@Guk wrote:

Thalesian wrote:

Lyger@Permafrost wrote:

DW is still required if you are having difficulty with aggro due to group setup. playing a healer as well, it is easier to keep 1 person healed than random people in the group who can be one shot.

As I said about, I don't agree. It's far simpler - and smarter - to tell the dpsers to hold back so you can keep aggro, rather than force the healer to work harder/over their limit just so you can hold it.  Of course, it depends upon the group you're with... Good groups are a dream to adventure with, bad group are, well... bad.

/fail.  It's far simpler to do your job and learn to play your class properly than to have the dps "hold back" because you can't hold agro.  If you have a Coercer/Dirge/scout xfer in your group and your tanking something.  There should be absolutely no reason you should be losing agro to a DPS class once you have built up sufficient agro.  Berserkers have the necessary tools to do the job they need to do.  And lets not forget, "letting" the DPS die because you can't hold agro also increases the fight because virtually every named out there this expac heals/death.  So, continue to follow that thought and make things more dificult for yourself, or, do what you need to do to do your job properly.

Things I would suggest you do is get a 2nd set of armor that IF your forced to go Def on a mob, adorn said set with hate and other such items.  Secondly, get a Virulent Ire adornment and apply it to a second ranged weapon item.  They drop aplenty in Thrones and this way you can swap it in/out during a fight to use if/when needed.

   Most of us in here do know how to play our class properly. What was being said is there is a group dynamic and sometimes its necessary for DPS classes to slow down just a bit.

   Like you said IF you have a Coercer/Dirge/scout xfer you shouldn't have a problem with aggro. And you're right, when I have a great group setup and all those tools, I have absolutely no issues with aggro at all. In any stance or whether I'm DW'ing or using a shield. But we all know that you don't always have a perfect group.

  Personally I have a mixture of adorns with some hate gain%, CC, crit mit, DPS mod...Whatever is needed to make myself effective.I also keep all my snaps and taunts timed well so if I do lose aggro I can get it right back. Like we're supposed to do. Roehl I know you're smart enough to understand that some people you group with will make your job harder than it should be.

[Talathion]

If you slow down your DPS then you should go guardian, they reduce the groups hate by 25%, then reduce a targets hate by 75%, then transfers 15% Threat from anyone to you, making it much easier to hold aggro and not have your group fall back on DPS.

Berserkers are a class made for "Keep fighting and don't hold back" If you hold back your groups and your own DPS, then you lower your OWN survivability and offensive capabilitys, making it harder on yourself, your group, and your healer.  They are simply not made for holding back, just look at every ability a berserker has.

[Zeuhl]

  Who said anything about holding back my own DPS??? I've never entertained the idea of going guardian nor will I. For you of all people to tell someone to change classes is hilarious.

[Talathion]

Zeuhl27 wrote:

  Who said anything about holding back my own DPS??? I've never entertained the idea of going guardian nor will I. For you of all people to tell someone to change classes is hilarious.

Since you get DPS from your allies "not holding back" you are.

And its a very good thing, especially if you want to hold back DPS, if you go guardian, you won't have too!

[LygerT]

how about you go guard and stop littering the forum with trash.

[Zeuhl]

My apologies, I forgot that Talathion is the best zerker WW...