3 Month patch schedule

[slippery]

I just really don't understand it. How often do we see "It's fixed, it'll be in the next GU." when that is months away? Like, how does a system where you have something broken, and fix it, and shelve that fix for almost 3 months before the customers see it even remotely make sense? It's so bad that I can't even remember what is supposed to be fixed when anymore. I can't keep track of what is in game and what isn't because it takes so long for some of the fixes to go live. I forget what's actually a bug. Can anyone even remember all the things that have already been fixed that are supposed to be in next GU?

This 3 month patch system just doesn't work at all, bug fixes should not take that long. I couldn't stand knowing that every day people are dealing with something bugged that I fixed months ago because it was a simple code fix and has to wait. Are you guys really happy with a system that lets the players sit there with bugged content that you fixed?

It is really really disheartening as a player.

[Delimant]

There was a bug with movies causing crashes.  They fixed it next day.  Which bugs are you refering to?

[darwich]

If they run patches to fix things, people complain.. if they wait and do them all at once people complain... Seriously they cant win with everyone... Also what would help your post is some actual bugs that arent fixed/scheduled to go in the next GU.. not all of them but some would help.

[Nolrog]

slippery wrote:

This 3 month patch system just doesn't work at all, bug fixes should not take that long. I couldn't stand knowing that every day people are dealing with something bugged that I fixed months ago because it was a simple code fix and has to wait. Are you guys really happy with a system that lets the players sit there with bugged content that you fixed?

It is really really disheartening as a player.

Bug fixes happen all the time.  Look at the game update notes forum: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/....m?forum_id=330

Since the beginning of June there have been updates:

June 2June 3June 7June 14June 24June 29June 30July 1July 6July 12July 13

So that's 11 updates in less than 2 months.  Some were smaller than others, some pushed out other updates (either for the Station Store or in preparation for FF) but most had bug fixes.

[Quicksilver74]

I don't think he means just technical bugs.  

 I think maybe he means true problems with the game, like itemization, or problems with progression. 

[Nolrog]

Crabbok@Unrest_old wrote:

I don't think he means just technical bugs.  

 I think maybe he means true problems with the game, like itemization, or problems with progression. 

Hi Crabby.  I would assume those get patched when they are ready as well.   Though, we don't exactly know when they are ready and if they can be pushed with those interim updates.  I would assume that anything that can be patched is pushed immediately.

[Lalen]

Nolrog wrote:

slippery wrote:

This 3 month patch system just doesn't work at all, bug fixes should not take that long. I couldn't stand knowing that every day people are dealing with something bugged that I fixed months ago because it was a simple code fix and has to wait. Are you guys really happy with a system that lets the players sit there with bugged content that you fixed?

It is really really disheartening as a player.

Bug fixes happen all the time.  Look at the game update notes forum: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/....m?forum_id=330

Since the beginning of June there have been updates:

June 2June 3June 7June 14June 24June 29June 30July 1July 6July 12July 13

So that's 11 updates in less than 2 months.  Some were smaller than others, some pushed out other updates (either for the Station Store or in preparation for FF) but most had bug fixes.

If the OP is right then with all of those patches with just a single patch note on the line is just silly.

[Rijacki]

Anything relating to art usually can't be fixed until there is an art push. There have been several of those which have internal fixes but won't be Live until a GU.

But, without concrete examples from the OP, it's really hard to tell what is being referenced.

[LardLord]

Class tweaks rarely happen between GUs, no matter how minor they are...

For example, the simple change to make some of the new DoV buffs persist through death had to wait around 2.5 months for GU60.

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=496660

[slippery]

Quabi's is a great example. It is generally art and code things that don't get pushed until the GU. I probably won't have time today, but I'll try to make a list tomorrow with some examples. A lot of the things aren't necessarily in posts. For example, the Warlock spell Plaguebringer isn't stacking from multiple Warlocks (If it is on a mob from one Warlock and another Warlock casts it the second one overwrites the first and the first loses all the remaining ticks). This was fixed a couple weeks ago, yet won't go live until the GU. Simple bug fix right? Apparently not simple enough to be pushed to the game in less than 2 months.

[Delimant]

Or maybe they haven't added it to the live servers yet because they are seeing how much damage total are done by warlocks when their best spells stack.  Plaguebringer is a pretty hard hitting spell. 

[slippery]

That was a really ignorant statement. It is a bug, it is fixed, it isn't pushed because it is a code fix that has to wait for a GU. Damage output doesn't change after the fix, because Warlocks can get all the damage now. If there is only one Warlock they never lose the damage. If there are 2 Warlocks they have to not cast the spell around the same time. It's a bug that isn't getting pushed because of the patch scheme, it is has nothing to do with seeing damage.

[Drumstix]

darwich wrote:

If they run patches to fix things, people complain.. if they wait and do them all at once people complain... Seriously they cant win with everyone... Also what would help your post is some actual bugs that arent fixed/scheduled to go in the next GU.. not all of them but some would help.

People complaining about patches and the fixing of a game they play shouldn't be allowed to post. They're not thinking very thoroughly about anything.

There's plenty of things a developer should ignore, and this is one of them.

[Rijacki]

slippery wrote:

Quabi's is a great example. It is generally art and code things that don't get pushed until the GU. I probably won't have time today, but I'll try to make a list tomorrow with some examples. A lot of the things aren't necessarily in posts. For example, the Warlock spell Plaguebringer isn't stacking from multiple Warlocks (If it is on a mob from one Warlock and another Warlock casts it the second one overwrites the first and the first loses all the remaining ticks). This was fixed a couple weeks ago, yet won't go live until the GU. Simple bug fix right? Apparently not simple enough to be pushed to the game in less than 2 months.

Some fixes might have a broader implication to the change which requires more QA testing on a variety of things and/or putting it to the Test servers in order to shake out all the other things inadvertantly changed by the fix.

Would you want any mobs to suddenly hit harder in not often used zones just so your fix can go in now now now with minimal testing?

The code base is MASSIVE. All the combinations of different effects and how they interelate with every NPC, PC, effect, etc is ASTRONOMICAL. Unless a QA person happens to test the exactly combination (one of thousands) which hits an unexpected issue, it can be missed in a 'quick overview'.

If they hold things back for more testing, there are complaints about not releasing them immediately. If they release something immediately which seems like a small fix and it ends up affecting several seemingly unrelated things, there are loud complaints about how they never QA anything.

I do product testing for a living (not for SOE) and no matter how much we have tested a specific feature when it goes out into the field with a completely different customer use case than we expect (or know about) we'll get a response of "did you test THIS?" We can show how we tested it as the feature alone, but it can still fail entirely when it is put together with other features or other circumstances in a combination we could never anticipate.

[slippery]

The thing is, most of these things aren't going to get noticed on test to begin with. Nor does that excuse a method where it only gets done once every 3 months. The fact is, 3 month updates don't stop those bugs from going live. They still do now. If anything with the 3 month updates stuff gets even less tested. Instead of 2 weeks every month before the update like we used to have, now we get 2-3 weeks every 3 months. I'm not asking for content updates every 3 months, I'm asking for the old once a month update, the one where we get all the code and art fixes. Not am I being unrealistic, stuff is going to break. The change being shelved for 2.5 months while everyone forgets about it isn't going to fix that. Code and Art fixes simply should not sit for what feels like ever before getting pushed. I mean we are talking about 1/4 of an expansion just sitting there broken when it was fixed in a week. How does that make sense?

[Ryai]

There's a lot of validity to the OPs statements. However... I've noticed some fixes are getting pushed out more rapidly. I know they have a QA process, and that is always a huge bottleneck in any company. So to a degree that's understandable. But I don't see why some simple mechanics/art bugs get fixed immediately, while other long overdue changes take months. There is a definite disjoint there. But I've also noticed a cycle. A GU will come out, then well see lots of fixes rapidly pushed put for a few weeks then... Everything starts to get pushed back. Its like all bug fixing efforts have been moved over to working on new content unless something breaks. Which is what I think the OP is really seeing. But good job with the content being added every three months. I am all for larger changes being held to major updates. And I am glad to finally see the kind of updates that were originally promised when things went to the 3 month cycle.

[slippery]

NPC pathing comes to mind.

[Rijacki]

slippery wrote:

NPC pathing comes to mind.

NPC pathing is definately something which could cause broad unintended effects.

[Banditman]

And yet here we sit, months after DoV release, with the worst pathing in the history of the game.

[Pavahac]

 If it's not game breaking it can wait. I prefer them to fix and push fixes that are game breaking not just an irritant. What might be important to you may not be that important overall. So ask yourself one question, is it game breaking? Most of the time it is not. I do know when it's game breaking it gets fixed as soon as possible.

[Delimant]

Well, in defense of the above poster, the pathfinding CAN be pretty game breaking on some raids, like when you are trying to fight a boss and suddenly he runs completely around the room for no reason whatsoever...

[Rijacki]

Delimant@Butcherblock wrote:

Well, in defense of the above poster, the pathfinding CAN be pretty game breaking on some raids, like when you are trying to fight a boss and suddenly he runs completely around the room for no reason whatsoever...

And that gets worse when they try to tweak pathing or line of sight (one reason for a mob suddenly running an entirely different direction).

[Gaige]

The original EQ2 team could do monthly GUs including content and two expansions a year.  Kind of sad how far they've fallen where expansions are now features only and GU's featuring content take three months to go live ;(

[Odys]

Gaige wrote:

The original EQ2 team could do monthly GUs including content and two expansions a year.  Kind of sad how far they've fallen where expansions are now features only and GU's featuring content take three months to go live ;(

When i played what people call now Wow-Vanilla (2004) fixes and improvment were delivered almost weekly. If some class was lakcing desirabilty or potency it was fixed quickly, and if there was a weekly or monthly holy trinity (or PVP master)it never lasted long.

What was very positive was the constant discussion in each class board and the designers -- represented by a class manager avatar --. Most of the discussion was very sound, players of that era were mature (former eq1 players) and none asked to be overpowered. 

I also fail to remember Blizzard delivering unpolished/unecessarly changes. Hilarious updates liek the one which led to tex-avery pathing were simply unimaginable from Blizzard due to their quality testing.

[Leovinus]

Gaige wrote:

The original EQ2 team could do monthly GUs including content and two expansions a year.  Kind of sad how far they've fallen where expansions are now features only and GU's featuring content take three months to go live ;(

Wow, that's a serious case of rose colored glasses there.  Sure they had monthly LUs, but they were pretty sparse in comparison to what we get on these days.

[Darkeendragon]

Gorock@Storms wrote:

Gaige wrote:

The original EQ2 team could do monthly GUs including content and two expansions a year.  Kind of sad how far they've fallen where expansions are now features only and GU's featuring content take three months to go live ;(

When i played what people call now Wow-Vanilla (2004) fixes and improvment were delivered almost weekly. If some class was lakcing desirabilty or potency it was fixed quickly, and if there was a weekly or monthly holy trinity (or PVP master)it never lasted long.

What was very positive was the constant discussion in each class board and the designers -- represented by a class manager avatar --. Most of the discussion was very sound, players of that era were mature (former eq1 players) and none asked to be overpowered. 

I also fail to remember Blizzard delivering unpolished/unecessarly changes. Hilarious updates liek the one which led to tex-avery pathing were simply unimaginable from Blizzard due to their quality testing.

This was true up until Burning Crusade. Then their QA took a massive plumet and bugs that were introduced in BC are still there 2 expansions later. These bugs still get posted in the bug section and are completely ignored. If anything, SoE has better QA then the current WoW QA.

[feldon30]

Banditman wrote:

And yet here we sit, months after DoV release, with the worst pathing in the history of the game.

They just need to back out the silly 5 meter "melee" range change from Velious, go back to 2m melee range, and then change all ranged combat arts from level 80-90 to have a minimum range of 2m. Each "pathing fix" makes it worse, with mobs teleporting around, impossible to position. It has made tanking absolutely un-fun. We shouldn't have to run halfway across the zone to get the mob to start moving towards us, then try to get him turned around so he's not facing the group/raid. Pathing was fine before Velious. The complaint was the minimum range on ranged Combat Arts.

[Gaige]

Leovinus wrote:

Wow, that's a serious case of rose colored glasses there.  Sure they had monthly LUs, but they were pretty sparse in comparison to what we get on these days.

Go back and look imo~  Spirits of the Lost was added in a GU.  All the 18 hour daily x4s were added in GUs.  That is early T5 content that they were doing monthy back then.

[slippery]

Rijacki wrote:

slippery wrote:

NPC pathing comes to mind.

NPC pathing is definately something which could cause broad unintended effects.

And is something that should have been reverted a day after going live, because it had broad unintended effects. So much good it did on test right? The fact is, the test environment isn't a good one, and shouldn't be used as an excuse not to push things. I also already addressed how we get less testing time then ever in earlier posts.

A pathing fix went live and made tanking the most miserable thing ever. There is nothing worse then trying to position mobs and having them port behind you. Or even worse in the Drunder zones fighting on the ramps a mob will port over and over and over and over again running down the ramp port down the ramp port down ramp port etc. It's absolutely absurd that the pathing didn't just get reverted.