The ONLY solution to reviving PVP on Naggy...

[Sprin]

So many threads are around blaming this and that and the other for dead PVP on this server... and many things are contributing factors... but as I have said in the past and will say again on this thread... the TRUE cause for death of PVP on this game is as follows... (Taken from "Instanced Zones" on EQ2 Wiki...): Click on link below, as the forums wont let me post the whole list:

http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:...s_by_Instancing

Seeing a pattern here?  This list I'm sure is missing some if not many, I didnt check it, I dont need to... nobody does... we all know why PVP is dead... look at the above list... at least 227 Instanced zones to disapear in throughout all the tiers... T9, which the majority of the PVP exists at now, holds over 50 alone...

Just stop and think about that... 50+ zones that people are in, NOT pvp'ng... in T9 alone

With ROK we saw a select few instances... for the most part, PVP was still alive... people roamed the worlds still and looked for PVP... regardless of what you consider "true PVP" IE group vs group, 1 vs 1, group vs 1 quester... it was out there... people roamed, people flew, ran, hunted... OPEN world PVP existed...

The release of TSO marked the beginning of the end for us... the introduction of 30 new instances to disapear into to get the "good loots"..

And so the cycle of life continued on EQ2... With SF brought dozens more of both instances and raid zones people pretty much HAVE to go to in order to get the good loots...

Where am I going with this?

---

The ONLY solution to reviving PVP is to make PVP loot as good as, if not BETTER then the PVE loot that exists...  to get people out of instances and back into openworld PVP..

The solution has many obstacles, which I will outline here:

1.) Current way to obtain tokens favors mass killings for free updates for everyone (which is the only "PVP" that exists anymore

• A mob of 70 People kill one group, 70 people get a full writ done, every 5 minutes
• 50-60 tokens per Warfield can be obtained this way.... which is why we have point #2 below (see below)

2.) Bluebies that think they are on a blue server but are actually on Naggy (you know who you are):

• Think they are "better" then everyone and have "earned" gear through hours of killing a scripted mob with ACT which tells them what to do, how many times to do it, and when to do it (yes, I have been there, done that, and KNOW this is the case) ... Steep but short learning curve then ez farm mode,just waiting for timers to reset...
• Cry if any gear is anywhere remotely as good as their "hard earned" raid gear
• Dont seem to realize that not everyone just goes out and zergs to get free tokens, and many people that PVP actually spend longer PVP'ng every night then they do raiding, yet get very few tokens from the lack of people in open world (mostly because they are in raid / instance zones getting "hard earned" gear

3.) PVP "Choke points"

• We all know them from past and present: KP Docks writ giver, Lava Docks, SS docks, DLW quest area, Warfield Guards / evac point, Avatars, etc etc etc etc...
• Everyone is drawn to a certain place at a certain time for the "zerg" as outlined in #1 above
• Horrible for openworld PVP

4.) PVP "mentality" has switched from Open world to EZ mode leeching we see in #1 above

• People have come to expect ez farmed tokens and will disapear to the above listed instances once that "choke point" in #3 disapears or becomes less favorable to their faction
• Hard to break, will take time and a brand new system... completely brand new

5.) BG's

• Yeah, I said it... its a problem, though sometimes a fun one
• The same as an instance, only worse for openworld PVP, you can do it over and over and over again, all day, all night, no lockout timers
• Because of the "zerg" mentality, between WF zerg-free-token-a-thons, people disapear to BG's to get more Free tokens for doing nothing... nice of SOE isnt it? <--- sarcasm
• Have their place on PVE servers... major contributing factor in destroying openworld PVP on Naggy

The point is, people disapear into instances and only come out for ez mode farm PVP...

We need to change that mentality and the system which created it...

The solution I most agree with is the PVP Status Point system:

• Basically: Killing someone gives a certain amount of status points, the higher amount of people that killed that person, the lower amount of "status" the killer gets, you buy PVP gear with that status...
• We see that status system already in place, look at the amount of status you get next tim you are in a zerg raid kil-a-thon for each kill... usually 0
• Solves the "zerg" in that if 40 people kill one person, nobody gets any status and thus no updates
• Many different "variations" of the idea exist, but all have basic idea at heart... reward true openworld PVP, not zerging

The PVP gear needs to be Tiered, like raid gear, and at the top, be equivalent to raid gear and harder group instanced gear... also, needs to take about the same amount of time to achieve that...

• If zergs are a thing of the past, no ez farming of tokens exist, I think the "hard core" raiders will agree that PVP gear would take much longer to get, and I would hope, not whine about PVP gear being as good as their raid gear... afterall this is a PVP server.. gear from PVP'ng should be the best....  Afterall, if you are so "talented" gear obtained through PVP wont hurt your precious WW raid stats, as all the PVP'rs are just a bunch of "talentless newbs" anyways and cant get kill the raid mobs you hold so near and dear...

At any rate, I hope I have provided some insight and maybe a side of it some people havn't thought of before... there is more to PVP then class balance and fame loss...   People need to WANT to come pvp instead of PVE'ng all the time, and the only way to draw them out of the 200+ instances is to give them an incentive to PVP... equal gear for doing what we all came to this server to do... PVP...  

[Sprin]

Here you go, in case you couldnt follow the link... for your easy viewing pleasure... the Death of PVP list:

Pages in category "Group Zones"The following 149 pages are in this category, out of 149 total.

The AcadechismAnchor of BazzulAncient's TableAstra, the DreamscapeBastion of FlamesBefallen: Cavern of the AfflictedBefallen: Halls of the ForsakenBefallen: Necrotic AsylumThe Blackscale SepulcherBloodskull Valley: The Training GroundsThe Buccaneer's RestCauldron HollowCauldron Hollow: The Witches' CoveThe Cave of KnowledgeCazel's MesaChamber of ImmortalityThe Chamber of RulgaxChamber of the KeeperCharasis: Maiden's ChamberCharasis: Vault of Eternal SleepChelsithThe Clefts of RujarkClefts of Rujark: Dorn's SanctuaryA Clockwork ApocalypseThe Clockwork WorkshopThe Condemned CatacombCourt of InnovationCourt of KorucustCourt of Tears: The Dark OneThe Court of TruthCourt of Truth: Riddle of the SphinxThe Court of the BladesThe Court of the Coin: Imminent DangerCove of DecayCove of Decay: A Treaty for TreasureThe Crypt of AgonyThe Crypt of T'haenThe Crypt of T'haen: Endless TwilightCrypt of ValdoonThe Crypt of the ImprisonedD'Morte Burial Chambers: Veiled HollowThe D'Vinnian ThroneDarkblade Den of AssassinsDeathfist CitadelDeathfist Citadel: AssaultDeathfist Citadel: OnslaughtDeathly Scarab HiveDecrepit CryptThe Deep ForgeDemitrik's BastionDen of the DevourerDire HollowDrowned Caverns: Arena of HeroesDrowned Caverns: Flammable FurDrowned Caverns: Hot WaterEmperor Atrebe's Laboratory: The Fabled City of Kor-shaEmperor's AthenaeumErudin Research HallsThe Estate of UnrestThe Eternal GorgeEvernight AbbeyFiremyst GullyFiremyst Gully: A Foul WindGobblerock's HideoutThe Halls of FateHalls of the Unseen: The TakeoverHaunted VaultsHeroic: Cavern of Tangled WeedsHeroic: The Sullon MinesThe Hidden CacheThe Icy DigThe Icy KeepThe Icy Keep: The Return (Heroic)King Grikbar CavernsKlak'AnonKurn's Tower: Breaching the VoidLibrary of ErudinLibrary of Light: Showdown with the VizierLost Temple of CabilisMaiden's GulchMaiden's Gulch: Rescue of the SageMines of MeldrathMiragul's MenagerieMiragul's Phylactery: Scion of IceMiragul's Phylactery: The AnathemaMiragul's Phylactery: The CrucibleMistmyr ManorMurkwater NookThe Mysterious MineNagafen's LairNajena's Hollow TowerNektropos CastleNektropos Castle: The ReturnNektropos Castle: TribulationThe Nest of the Great EggNizara, City of the NayadNu'rogaObelisk of AhkzulObelisk of BlightAn Open Grave Den of the DevourerDire HollowDrowned Caverns: Arena of HeroesDrowned Caverns: Flammable FurDrowned Caverns: Hot WaterEmperor Atrebe's Laboratory: The Fabled City of Kor-shaEmperor's AthenaeumErudin Research HallsThe Estate of UnrestThe Eternal GorgeEvernight AbbeyFiremyst GullyFiremyst Gully: A Foul WindGobblerock's HideoutThe Halls of FateHalls of the Unseen: The TakeoverHaunted VaultsHeroic: Cavern of Tangled WeedsHeroic: The Sullon MinesThe Hidden CacheThe Icy DigThe Icy KeepThe Icy Keep: The Return (Heroic)King Grikbar CavernsKlak'AnonKurn's Tower: Breaching the VoidLibrary of ErudinLibrary of Light: Showdown with the VizierLost Temple of CabilisMaiden's GulchMaiden's Gulch: Rescue of the SageMines of MeldrathMiragul's MenagerieMiragul's Phylactery: Scion of IceMiragul's Phylactery: The AnathemaMiragul's Phylactery: The CrucibleMistmyr ManorMurkwater NookThe Mysterious MineNagafen's LairNajena's Hollow TowerNektropos CastleNektropos Castle: The ReturnNektropos Castle: TribulationThe Nest of the Great EggNizara, City of the NayadNu'rogaObelisk of AhkzulObelisk of BlightAn Open GraveThe Oratorium of ThyrThe Outer VaultOverlord's Throne RoomThe Palace of FerzhulThe Poets PalacePrize of PrexusRavenscale RepositoryThe Roekillik ExcavationRoyal Palace of ErudinThe Ruins of Guk: Halls of the FallenThe Ruins of Guk: The Lower CorridorsThe Ruins of Guk: Ykesha's Outer StrongholdRunnyeye: The GatheringThe SanctoriumSanctum of FearThe Sanctum of FireScornfeather RoostSepulcher of Zan FiShard of FearShard of Love: A Moment of ValorThe Silent CavernA small hideoutSpirit's ResonanceSundered Splitpaw: Alone in the DarkSundered Splitpaw: Crawler NestTallon Hording HallsTobrin's Former DomainThe Tomb of ValorTomb of the SeeressTombs of NightTombs of Night RetributionTombs of Night: A Search for AnswersThe Tower of the DraflingThe Tower of the Drafling: Elite Bixie HiveVasty Deep: The Abandoned LabsVasty Deep: The ConservatoryVasty Deep: The Vestigial CellaVault of DustVault of FlamesThe Vault of the FallenThe Vaults of El'AradVeksar: The InvasionVeksar: The Sunken TheaterThe VestibuleThe Vigilant: IncursionThe Vigilant: InfiltrationThe Vigilant: RescueZarvonn's TowerZraxth's Unseen Arcanum 

Pages in category "Raid x2 Zones"The following 23 pages are in this category, out of 23 total.

Ar'ticae's LairAscent of the AwakenedBloodskull Valley: Maulic's StrongholdBloodskull Valley: Noble ConfrontationCavern of the CrustaceansThe Cove of Decay: A Heroic ConfrontationDythra's LairEternal Gorge: Daring ConfrontationFiremyst Gully: Gallant ConfrontationFiremyst Gully: In Pursuit of the OneFiremyst Gully: Vanudozalon's LairIcespire SummitKurn's Tower (Zone)Orcish MinesThe Sanctum of Fear: Niscanith's LairShattered Vale: Bold ConfrontationShattered Vale: Lordly ConfrontationSundered Splitpaw: Anvilpaw's Grotto The Trembling LagoonVault of the Fallen Lair of Trenda'LozThe Vigilant: Final DestructionWard of ElementsXux'laio's Roost 

Pages in category "Raid x4 Zones"The following 55 pages are in this category, out of 55 total.

Antechamber of FateAscent of the Awakened: Audience with the GuardianThe Chamber of DestinyClockwork Menace FactoryCommune of K'DalCourt of Al'AfazThe Cove of Decay: Epic AnglerThe Crypt of T'Haen: VengeanceThe Crypt of VoxDarathar's FlightDeathtollDeserted MineThe Djinn Master's PrismDrayek's ChamberDrayek's Chamber: Icebound SuccessDrayek's Chamber: Throne of the Kromise KingDrowned Caverns: Brutal Acts of WarEchoes of Time: EpicThe Emerald HallsThe Execution Throne RoomFiremyst Gully: Shattered StillnessThe Fountain of LifeFreethinker HideoutThe Gates of Ahket AkenHalls of the SeeingIcy Keep: RetributionLaboratory of Lord VyemmLair of the Dragon QueenLockjaw's LairThe Lyceum of AbhorrenceA Meeting of the MindsMiragul's Planar ShardMistmoore's Inner SanctumMjolni's LairMunzok's Material BastionThe Palace of Roehn TheerPalace of the Ancient OneThe Pedestal of Sky Perah'Celsis' Abominable LaboratoryThe Poets Palace: ReturnShard of HateSpirits of the LostThe Temple of Kor-ShaTemple of Scale: Pedestal of the PriestessThe Protector's RealmThrone of New TunariaThe Tomb of ThuugaTomb of the Mad CrusaderTrakanon's LairTrials of the Awakened: Trial of LeadershipUnderfoot DepthsVeeshan's PeakVenril Sathir's LairYkesha's Inner StrongholdZarrakon's Abyssal Chamber 

[Magnis]

nice post, i like.  The only issue is the inner workings of SOE.  Even if you make PVP=PVE gear, eliminate the zerg and make pvp much harder to get,  we cannot have anything that the blue servers would not be able to obtain.  Its a rule they have, literaly. SO unless there is something awesome to get via open world PVP, people will only see it as a once evry 2 hour passtime.

 WF needs to go and BG should not be an option (again dont mean disable) to renew everyones interest to pvp.  As you said we need an insentive to pvp.  The only thing I can think of right now is a legitimate title system since we cant have gear. Maybe buff/apearance armor. BAH IDK

again good post.

ADDED: right now I would love to see a title system and a faction system that does not promote zerges, I think that would go to great length to help naggy.  For starters <===<<

[Wytie]

Its pretty spot on, but the problem is, it doesnt matter at this point.

After 6years and countless changes that have done nothing but drive more and more people away, from not only our server but the game. They have shown they barely have any dev time or money to spend on our gimic pvp, and its not going to get better, only worse.

Enjoy whats left anyway you can, because its not getting any younger or newer or less carebear anytime soon.

When was the last time you even saw a post from our pvp dev?

When was the last time you saw anything from our pvp dev over anything related to pvp?

Heck it took Smokejumper over 4 months just to get stonewill and all the other bugs with it, fixed on our server, he( the pvp dev) couldnt even get that done for us in a timely manner or at all.

Hope for the best and look forward to it in the next EQ...........

[Magnis]

Paill@Nagafen wrote:

Its pretty spot on, but the problem is, it doesnt matter at this point.

lol, you know what, thats kinda been how id been feeling lately.

[Agonee]

Thanks for taking the time to post this, it really hits home. I just wish this and all of the other posts / complaints would actually make a difference.

[Sprin]

Magnis@Nagafen wrote:

nice post, i like.  The only issue is the inner workings of SOE.  Even if you make PVP=PVE gear, eliminate the zerg and make pvp much harder to get,  we cannot have anything that the blue servers would not be able to obtain.  Its a rule they have, literaly. SO unless there is something awesome to get via open world PVP, people will only see it as a once evry 2 hour passtime.

 WF needs to go and BG should not be an option (again dont mean disable) to renew everyones interest to pvp.  As you said we need an insentive to pvp.  The only thing I can think of right now is a legitimate title system since we cant have gear. Maybe buff/apearance armor. BAH IDK

again good post.

ADDED: right now I would love to see a title system and a faction system that does not promote zerges, I think that would go to great length to help naggy.  For starters <===<<

I agree, as long as bluebies control our gear, we will never get anything done... we need to be cut off from the BG's completely... or if they absolutely REFUSE to do that, at least make BG gear COMPLETELY separate and equal to what Bluebies can get... Say T1 PVP gear is exactly the same as BG gear, and T2 and T3 PVP gear cant be worn in BGs at all, automatically gets unequipped and sent to the bags...

This would make people have a choice between PVP'ng in open world and obtaining even better gear, or if they want to, go to BG's and play on an even playing field as Bluebies...  with their T1 PVP gear...

The problem is BG's add an unlimited amount of mess and confusion to everything, and should never have been implemented on Naggy... but they have been... and now we have what we have.

I also tend to agree 100% with Pailllllllll that all is pretty much lost... this game is on a steady downhill slippery slope of declining PVP that will never return... If SOE actually listened to its PVP player base, maybe it might see a comeback, but we all know, they dont, they wont, and it wont.

Its a shame, I really like this game, I liked the old PVP system... fame.. /meh, never cared about fame, but I, like I would say 10000% of the people out there, prefer the old system over this garbage we have now..  but again, SOE wont listen..

This post was mainly intended to give a different perspective on things that people may not have thought about... fame is good, but not everyone cares about fame... GEAR is on 100% of people's list.. EVERYONE cares about gear... and as long as there are 100's of instances to get lost in with better gear then can be had by PVP, people will disapear into them to get it.

It's not an easy task for SOE, they made their mess, now they need to clean it up, or its 100% certain they will lose a LOT of subscriptions when PVP on Naggy completely buckles under the strain of a company that doesnt give 2 licks about one of the most populated servers in the world.

[Tenka]

even if they change the way pvp loot is, pretty much everyone has enough tokens to buy it all when it's released. so uhhh yeah.

[Sprin]

Tenka@Nagafen wrote:

even if they change the way pvp loot is, pretty much everyone has enough tokens to buy it all when it's released. so uhhh yeah.

 a complete change is a complete change... rendering old tokens worthless would be part of that...  

We are waaay beyond baby steps to fix PVP at this point...   a drastic change is needed... a revamp of revamps... ONLy that has the ability to fix PVP...  and even that is doubtfull it would

[Tenka]

i don't see them dedicating anywhere near enough man power to make a major change happen. and no matter what they do there will still be a large contingency of ppl crying and complaining. from a business stand-point it's hardly worth the resources to try to 'fix' pvp again. i gotta wonder how many man-hours went into wf's. then how many more went into upgrading hardware and re-vamping wf's. and nagafen is still a lake of tears.

[ValindorEQ]

IB4CareBears

Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:

2.) Bluebies that think they are on a blue server but are actually on Naggy (you know who you are):

• Think they are "better" then everyone and have "earned" gear through hours of killing a scripted mob with ACT which tells them what to do, how many times to do it, and when to do it (yes, I have been there, done that, and KNOW this is the case) ... Steep but short learning curve then ez farm mode,just waiting for timers to reset...
• Cry if any gear is anywhere remotely as good as their "hard earned" raid gear
• Dont seem to realize that not everyone just goes out and zergs to get free tokens, and many people that PVP actually spend longer PVP'ng every night then they do raiding, yet get very few tokens from the lack of people in open world (mostly because they are in raid / instance zones getting "hard earned" gear

This TBH. Everything else as well, but this is the major problem. And the problem doesn't stop with the carebears on Nagafen. The ones on Oasis are always here clogging up our forums complaining about any effort to get better gear. There are others as well. The bluebies just don't want anyone to be able to match their gear. I mean if anyone could get access to that gear by spending alot of time PvPing, then they wouldn't be able to go AFK on the docks so everyone could see their gear anymore.

[Mentle]

Why don't SOE just ASK the nagafen playerbase, the last bastion of EQ2 PVP, what they want and how they want it.

I know most people dont come on the forum, but first if they admit that its broken in its current incarnation and then there must be some way to poll everyone.  give them a chance to be heard, then majority rules and implement it.  They could extend the lifespan of this server and the game dramatically rather than just letting it slowly die.

Instances - Yep the bluebies love them, but could they open them up on nagafen only and make them non instanced, contested areas instead?  Or are there some intrinsic mechanics there that couldn't be changed?

[Magnis]

  Would be fun to open up all instances and put everything on a timer, flag people for daily quest and and chests so they cannot get them more than one a day.  SOE would have to accept that this would open up a whole new world of farming for nagafen.

That in itself would give us more problems, for having the ability to farm instances that blue servers get locked out of.  Yes, blue servers would die if you took out their instances, for naggy, might be fun to see all these open. 

This would further change the rules of naggy to blues servers.  WHich honestly, I dont think SOE wants to put the man power to do this. 

I wish they did...but thats just me

ADDED: heh, thinking about it more I would love to see zones opened.  Flag people for chest and dailys, put a lockout if you zone for 18 hours .If they zoned out they get locked out, u couldnt even Vcall. 

[Tenka]

Mentle@Nagafen wrote:

Why don't SOE just ASK the nagafen playerbase, the last bastion of EQ2 PVP, what they want and how they want it.

I know most people dont come on the forum, but first if they admit that its broken in its current incarnation and then there must be some way to poll everyone.  give them a chance to be heard, then majority rules and implement it.  They could extend the lifespan of this server and the game dramatically rather than just letting it slowly die.

Instances - Yep the bluebies love them, but could they open them up on nagafen only and make them non instanced, contested areas instead?  Or are there some intrinsic mechanics there that couldn't be changed?

they would get 400 different answers and be no better off.  just look at all the threads of ppl claiming to know how to fix pvp.  there's pretty much no commonality.

[Mentle]

... but surely leaving it as it is, isnt an option ?   At least people are trying

[NOPVE]

Do we really want to zone into a multitude of PvE zones looking for people? That seems a bit tedious.

At this point there needs to be a defined reason to go out into the open world, and PvP, and that is not going to happen with how the current warfronts are designed.

Imagine with me for a minute that there is a Karnor's Castle type zone every FOUR HOURS where you had random fortified areas to take, but you couldn't take them without attaining a combined number of PvP kills to progress. These areas are designed to be sieged, and defended. The side that attains 48 kills first, wins that encounter, which then moves to another area within Karnors Castle. This goes on until the entire castle (zone) is either captured, or defended, and then the areas of interest are then (for the remainder of time) spread across the world zones, requiring points of interest that both sides either siege, or defend. The towers in the KOS zones would be awesome stages for this attack, and defense style of play.

This would create many fights that happen in transit, and a concentrated area of fights that begin, and end very rapidly, spreading PvP over a multitude of areas. This would give us an open world type of battleground scenarios, that are rewarded as such, for participation. If you do not score any PvP kills at these areas, you do not get any kind of reward. I'm sorry, but rewards need to be based off of PvP participation, not beating on defenseless PvE statues.

You can further adapt this kind of play in the other tiers by using keeps like Deathfist Citadel for 40-79 players, and the smaller Antonica forts for 10-39 players.

[Wytie]

pve has always been the driving force of everything in this game, even pvp, like it or not.

The game has changed so much that the pve no longer promotes pvp and that is why the problem you see today.

People use to HAVE to go out in open zones and quest and grind xp, now this is just no longer the case.

Hear are some reasons why there use to be pvp but not anymore.

Guild Flags and other forms of instant travel along with Guildhall amenitys. Everyone sits around the guild hall cause they are lazy and then waits for the one person with track to go out and place all the flags. People use to pvp all the time to the very few heroic and raid instances there use to be, this accounted for a MOST if not all of some peoples pvp.

Instance content both heroic and epic. How many times did you use to raid or group pvp simply because the spire or portal has a 10-15min wait and another faction was doing the same with there group or raid?

Important quest lines that revolved around almost every open zone, you might wait for a group of friends to go out and run these solo quest lines simply because it was safe from the open pvp that was waiting for you to come out and gank your fame you might have work so very hard to keep, if that was your thing.

Heirloom, people have almost no reason to pvp on there alts until they have full sets waiting for them from their main, MC twinks are no longer twinks, people with no pvp title at all not even hunter can rock full pvp sets gained from their main.... wow lame for pvp unless your the one with the full set saved up already....

War Fields and writs, its the carrot most people have been trained to pvp only during specific times because its most rewarding and everyone is rewarded equaly no matter how big of a zerg group you are with, kills small pvp completely during those times.

Last but not least FAME

I wont go into my opinion of why, I will just say alot of people quit pvp when fame went to decay and became even more meaningless, it would be nice for those people to have a reason to still play with us, and give others who dont have alts and have full sets to go out and work for a goal that means something to some people.

[NOPVE]

The PvP population started declining long, long before the change to fame though. Maybe .001% of the population quit because of the fame change, but many months before that the populations declined forcing the merging of the European servers, with the American servers.

The question is, what caused it then?

People talk about the good old days, but were they really the good old days? I recall people quitting because you could evac in combat, or that healers could heal, while never being put into combat. I remember a large number of people quitting because you could zone, while in combat escaping certain death. Not to mention the massive amount of people who hovered on carpets, clouds, and griffons, or the large number of SKs who would sit in immunity waiting for harm touch to come up, before they went out to kill someone, then sitting in immunity again.

I don't remember the good old days as, good. I remember a much larger number of people leaving back then too, so the problem was caused far, far longer than fame. We just need to recognize what caused the earliest problems, and address them, and try to get Sony to improve on them.

[Sprin]

I think we all agree that PVP needs a major revamp... It is so screwed up atm, that much is obvious.

If SOE doesnt do something MAJOR MAJOR, and do it soon, Naggy will die and PVP on EQ will die with it.  Naggy is a huge server with lots of people in it.  And yes PVE is part of the game,  I enjoy PVE sometimes, but its usually only because I need that "ONE THING FROM THAT ONE ZONE OMFGZORS I WANT IT!"... If that same item was available from  PVP'ng, and PVP was all over the place, like it used to be on this server... I would instead go out and do that. 

 But there is no PVP out and the gear HAS to be obtained from PVE....  the cycle repeats.. no pvp because people want gear, and are in instances getting that gear, they go out to look for pvp and its not there, so they go to an instance to get the next piece, or in most cases, the same piece that didnt drop... rinse and repeat

And I'm all about fixing Fame to get people interested in it again... I personally dont care about fame, in fact I always thought it made PVP LESS fun, because I would get [Removed for Content] if I lost fame, so I stopped caring and found PVP more fun again.  I think people overestimate the amount of people that left because of the fame change.  I think you see people leaving because of all the other changes, and the fact that PVP doesnt really exist anymore... Fame is the straw that broke the camels back for those people. 

I think if we focus too much of our attention trying to get Fame fixed by SOE, they will overlook the major issues that are the driving force behind the decline of PVP... PVP gear being bunk, too many instances to disapear to, choke points, etc etc...   Fame really isnt the issue for a VAST VAST majority of the people.

[Tenka]

i don't think it's fixable. it's already jacked and disparity will grow when they add more gear and more aa. ganking and zerging will continue to be the best way to farm tokens, and farming tokens has become the bottom line. let me off the server so i can pve in peace. i'm tired of the 'i pwned you' 'nowai i pwned you' on nagafen.

[skidmark]

When I first started on Venekor there were a lot of issues and annoyances with PvP. They have addressed most of those.

I never PvP'd for gear though. Sure there was PvP gear available, it just was something to augment other equipment. You didn't get whole sets.

To force people out of instances, put an xp penalty on them when on a PvP server. While in an instance you earn 75% less xp than in other contested zones. That would get people back out into other dungeons and overland zones. Give an xp bonus to quests completed in overland zones too.

Bring back T2 PvP too.

[Tenka]

so many 90/250 ppl. most ppl do instances for money and loot afaik. when i do them i do them in case a master drops that no one needs, so i can make a lil plat. even if more ppl did leave instances it would just mean more gank/zerg.

[NOPVE]

What ultimately hurt PvP, was the need to have stupidly powerful gear to compete. Bring back the days that Mastercrafted was all that was needed to PvP.

Gone are the days you needed Adept III, and Mastercrafted to compete.

[rvc]

  For myself and many people I know who quit playing, Fame was the game and the only game worth playing.

[Tenka]

NOPVE wrote:

What ultimately hurt PvP, was the need to have stupidly powerful gear to compete. Bring back the days that Mastercrafted was all that was needed to PvP.

Gone are the days you needed Adept III, and Mastercrafted to compete.

that' all you need to pvp now.  of course you will get beat and stomped because there is so much better gear.  they would have to dumb the server down and get rid of 90% of the gear that drops.  just for nagafen.  of course this would go over like a [Removed for Content] in a punchbowl with those that raid or even do instances.

[Vaylan77]

Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:

5.) BG's

• Yeah, I said it... its a problem, though sometimes a fun one
• The same as an instance, only worse for openworld PVP, you can do it over and over and over again, all day, all night, no lockout timers
• Because of the "zerg" mentality, between WF zerg-free-token-a-thons, people disapear to BG's to get more Free tokens for doing nothing... nice of SOE isnt it? <--- sarcasm
• Have their place on PVE servers... major contributing factor in destroying openworld PVP on Naggy

I have to disagree. Removing BGs won't make a crappy PVP game design with warfields more populated! Wfs are crap, they are no fun and removing BGs will just result in people leaving completely. I don't see it as either or decision like many obviously do. Warhammer for example also had both PVP styles and the open world was full of PVP. Why? Because the game design was great, you had sieges where actually people defended castles. I recall a huge battle once when we tried to enter a castle that was so massively defende that we had to move backwards out of the area and then in front of the castle a huge battle evolved. A BATTLE! No zerg, it was an even fight actually.And that's basically it - BGs don't destroy open PVP, WFs do for they make people log in every two hours to get the tokens. Just check EL. There is almost no PVP even when WF is up, so what you do actually is enter the WF shortly before the WF is down (so 38 minutes after it starts just enter zone, go to a statue, get flagged and get 3 tokens because EL always is a draw). And you think people will do more of this crap when you remove BGs? Dream on.The whole game mechanics should be revamped to make open PVP fun again. BGs can stay in game - you can unlink the tokens from it, I would not have a problem with that, so no way to buy gear with them on a PVP server, but I like the playstyle in BGs more than in WFs for everyone is enganged. No running in BGs, in BGs there are battles and most of the time even ones. That's why BGs must stay as long as SOE totally fixes real world PVP.

[Jab]

Silbermond@Nagafen wrote:

Ghettoblaster@Nagafen wrote:

5.) BG's

• Yeah, I said it... its a problem, though sometimes a fun one
• The same as an instance, only worse for openworld PVP, you can do it over and over and over again, all day, all night, no lockout timers
• Because of the "zerg" mentality, between WF zerg-free-token-a-thons, people disapear to BG's to get more Free tokens for doing nothing... nice of SOE isnt it? <--- sarcasm
• Have their place on PVE servers... major contributing factor in destroying openworld PVP on Naggy

I have to disagree. Removing BGs won't make a crappy PVP game design with warfields more populated! Wfs are crap, they are no fun and removing BGs will just result in people leaving completely. I don't see it as either or decision like many obviously do. Warhammer for example also had both PVP styles and the open world was full of PVP. Why? Because the game design was great, you had sieges where actually people defended castles. I recall a huge battle once when we tried to enter a castle that was so massively defende that we had to move backwards out of the area and then in front of the castle a huge battle evolved. A BATTLE! No zerg, it was an even fight actually.And that's basically it - BGs don't destroy open PVP, WFs do for they make people log in every two hours to get the tokens. Just check EL. There is almost no PVP even when WF is up, so what you do actually is enter the WF shortly before the WF is down (so 38 minutes after it starts just enter zone, go to a statue, get flagged and get 3 tokens because EL always is a draw). And you think people will do more of this crap when you remove BGs? Dream on.The whole game mechanics should be revamped to make open PVP fun again. BGs can stay in game - you can unlink the tokens from it, I would not have a problem with that, so no way to buy gear with them on a PVP server, but I like the playstyle in BGs more than in WFs for everyone is enganged. No running in BGs, in BGs there are battles and most of the time even ones. That's why BGs must stay as long as SOE totally fixes real world PVP.

/agree x100 to the stuff i highlighted in yellow.

[yellowbelly08]

All is not lost tbh... Ive been pvping prominently on Nagafen since day 1 and ive seen pvp through all its phases. Am I wearing the rose tinted spectacles you believe i should be. Well..no. KOS was fun yes..and many will believe it the halycon period of EQ2 pvp.....but is it right due to a "fame dispute" that didnt speak to a close friend in guild for a year....or that some dude i had pwned to 1% then one shots me with the death miracle...no of course not.  So things changed...they have always changed...in combat evacs were as intended you think..? or zoning in combat?. So where are we now...well I still play the game...i still love the pvp in the game....I now am back speaking to the aforementioned guildy..and have got well over 60k pvp kills. Consider:

1,) After the expansion there will again be lots of pvp in open questing zones. A ability or class may have been made wtfop..we die "unfairly" to him...but we do not run and hide...we try again..we pvp. We do not consider evacs etc to protect our fame. We finally play astoundingly and beat him due to skill and tactics. He knows it..he has his LOSS, we have our fame "BUMP"

2.)The populace needs to man up..we like pvp yes? we are on Naggy for it? then pvp. And i aint talking warfields only here..actually go a roaming, or set up and roam an A team.

3. When the open quest pvp dies down....dont give up. Play as above but yes...a further incentive/fix is needed i agree and here it comes:

PVP has to have better reward. PVP gear must be better than BG gear (and hence not usable in BG). It must be harder to get (hence more time and pvping needed to aquire it). The final aid to pvp would be a randomly spawning open world writ giver giving these upgraded gear writs. Players will roam to find it.

So..tbh...I dont blame SOE for the perceived demise of pvp. I blame the populace (choker wearers such as Dreww, bluebie whiners etc etc, some of the big names just quitting pvp and now working for progress). But even with this...EQ2 pvp is far from dead.....unless you guys talk it up  and let it be....

[Magnis]

just an agree post

Yes I think we all want the pvp that revolves around roaming the world finding the next fight completely different from the last. So go out and roam, been refusing to WF or BG lately and been doing some wondering SF, SH and found a few people to stopm, and got stopped has been fun.

SOO... just put bring back good fame, make PVP gear same as BG and put some uber affect that are disabled in BG, take off heirloom in tokens or good faction system for xpac opening

please?

[Snosael]

amen!  if only nagafen could sucede from the blubies!