Why can low level characters spend so much AA ?

Nijia · 09-15-2010, 11:17 AM

One issue I have in the game is that on the live servers you'll often end up grouping with people who play high level characters mentoring down for quest, AA or just to have some company. When this happens, the dungeon run becomes trivial, all challenge is gone. Mobs are pulled in large groups and you're lucky if you can pull more than a couple skills /spells before the mob dies. What's more since everthing becomes trivial, this allows people to run through the zone and also spoils the pleasure for people running the instances the first time.

Another issue I see is that the way you can spend so much AA at lower level trivializes the game and makes grouping less desirable. What puzzles me is why didn't SOE implement a minimum level and more tiers into the AA system?

That main reason I cant think of is because it would be very impractical to lock spells and AA when mentoring down as this would render 2/3 of the player's hotkeys unusable.

Another reason is AAs dont seem to be tied to character level, which appears to be by design. Why did SOE use "spend X points minimum" and not "level X minimum" with each AA ?

Now that SOE has implemented a way to replace old spells with newer versions, and they have data that links spell upgrade "chains" I thought a workable AA downgrading could be:

* While mentoring, temporarily replace spells with their "downgrades". Match character level to the spell tiers for every spell that has upgrades on the player's hotbar.

* Skills/spells that are only available at higher level and not at /mentored level should be disabled completely, including AA skills that would be associated with higher levels. But with point above I think at least half of the player hotkeys would be usable since most spells have unique effects and are only replaced by upgrades rather than different spells.

What do you think?

Am I alone here thinking that the AA implementation has trivialized the lower level instances?

Nobody cares because you're all level 90 anyway? SMILEY

Kizee · 09-15-2010, 11:24 AM

There is a cap on how much AA you can spend.

SoE can't even get the replacing spells with the next tier working right ans you want them to start replacing skills for every tier randomly? Yeahhhh.

TBH be lucky you have groups. If soe used your ideas then you probably wouldn't be getting in any.

Some people like to feel powerful and go back to old dungeons and rip stuff up that killed them so many times when they were noobs.

Nijia · 09-15-2010, 11:26 AM

Fair enough SMILEY

I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered.

Kizee · 09-15-2010, 11:38 AM

Willit@Crushbone wrote:

Fair enough
I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered.

It is overpowered but it is 1000x better than when it was first introduced.

Back then you had to actually wear the armor of that tier so you needed to have your bank filled with different tiered sets AND you would have to manually replace all your spells in your hotbars with that tiers spells.

Needless to say not many people if any at all mentored.

QuestingCrafter · 09-15-2010, 12:33 PM

I don't remember having to re-suit, but I do remember having to use spells/CAs at or below the target mentored level ... what a pain!

Kizee · 09-15-2010, 12:41 PM

QuestingCrafter wrote:

I don't remember having to re-suit, but I do remember having to use spells/CAs at or below the target mentored level ... what a pain!

I could be wrong but I thought you had to re-suit also. It was a long time ago.

Jaremai · 09-15-2010, 12:43 PM

I really wouldn't complain if my 90 took damage and did damage as a 30 when chrono'd to 30. As it stands it's more like he does the same damage as a group of 30s, and takes damage as if the mobs were all triple-downs.

I do like some challenge to the game. If we're doing Nektropos (the 35 version) with our lowbies and someone wants to bring their chrono'd 80+ along, it makes me cringe. Might as well just autofollow that person and go watch tv.

Maybe have a 2nd chrono person that will actually drop you to a power level matching the chrono'd level? That would allow people the option of being a god or being a mortal.

Gilli · 09-15-2010, 01:17 PM

Keep in mind that from level 90 the lower you go the more crazy powerful you get. I used to mentor a lot in maybe 10 or 15 level increments and then the power difference wasn't so extreme. It allowed me to trio some instances and still feel challenged, and it was a lot easier to grab two friends than it was to find five more or want to help. I really played these places just to see them, not because they had anything in them I actually needed (other than a little AA for some first time named). I like that the mentoring system allows for this.

Having said that, I am totally with you on frowning when somebody joins who trivializes a dungeon. Honestly I feel the same way about having a chrono 90 join my nektropos group as I do when a 90 raider joins a pug of 85-88s running library for the first time. In both cases it doesn't matter much what I do, it's all about the uber powerful guy and how he or she chooses to run the instance. Now I know to be more careful about forming the group if I am really craving an at-con experience.

Otherwise I'm not sure what else can be done about it. I did read a thread on the dungeon finder that said another game has a way to request relative power levels when you make a group. Haven't played it, haven't tried it... but in theory it sounds nice to set up groups looking for power ranges closer to your own. Might take longer, but being picky always does.

Kordran · 09-15-2010, 01:50 PM

Level 90s mentoring down to the lower tiers are designed to be essentially running in godmode. The original point of the whole thing was essentially about powerleveling up a friend who's come to the game and catch them up to your level. It's also evolved into a means by which players can solo through lower tier heroic content to get AA. In any case, if you're looking for that "original" experience, then don't bring a mentor into your group.

That said, I'd also point out that even if everyone is in their low 30s running through Nektropos Castle (for example), there's really still not much challenge at all to the content. Players are much more powerful than they were 5 years ago at the same level, and that old content was never adjusted to account for AAs and the vastly superior gear that everyone has easy access to (with stats and bonuses that a level 50 raider would have drooled over back in the day). So unless you're willing to reset all of your AAs and run around in handcrafted gear, you're not really getting an "authentic" experience anyway.

wajamacallit · 09-15-2010, 02:22 PM

Shimmer@Befallen wrote:

There is a cap on how much AA you can spend.
SoE can't even get the replacing spells with the next tier working right ans you want them to start replacing skills for every tier randomly? Yeahhhh.
TBH be lucky you have groups. If soe used your ideas then you probably wouldn't be getting in any.
Some people like to feel powerful and go back to old dungeons and rip stuff up that killed them so many times when they were noobs.

The AA cap applies to PvP only I believe. If not its really high as my SK is level 12 with 71 AA's has not reached the limit. I agree with the OP, with my AA's I am imune to most mobs up to and above red. I can pull entire areas and let them kill themselves on my imbued items with no problem.

For mentoring I am surprised SOE have not changed the formulea used and reduce the levels by 5. So for example mentoring to 30 in the new system would make you as you mentored to 25.

Banditman · 09-15-2010, 02:31 PM

There is a limit, even on PVE.

You can only spend 50 in the first tree and 50 in the second tree until L70. There might still be the 60 point cap in the third tree too, it's been a while since I looked.

You can *earn* as many as you like at any level, there was a L14 on these boards recently who had all 250 AA's earned.

Theladorn · 09-15-2010, 03:22 PM

Willit@Crushbone wrote:

One issue I have in the game is that on the live servers you'll often end up grouping with people who play high level characters mentoring down for quest, AA or just to have some company. When this happens, the dungeon run becomes trivial, all challenge is gone. Mobs are pulled in large groups and you're lucky if you can pull more than a couple skills /spells before the mob dies. What's more since everthing becomes trivial, this allows people to run through the zone and also spoils the pleasure for people running the instances the first time.
Another issue I see is that the way you can spend so much AA at lower level trivializes the game and makes grouping less desirable. What puzzles me is why didn't SOE implement a minimum level and more tiers into the AA system?
That main reason I cant think of is because it would be very impractical to lock spells and AA when mentoring down as this would render 2/3 of the player's hotkeys unusable.
Another reason is AAs dont seem to be tied to character level, which appears to be by design. Why did SOE use "spend X points minimum" and not "level X minimum" with each AA ?
Now that SOE has implemented a way to replace old spells with newer versions, and they have data that links spell upgrade "chains" I thought a workable AA downgrading could be:
* While mentoring, temporarily replace spells with their "downgrades". Match character level to the spell tiers for every spell that has upgrades on the player's hotbar.
* Skills/spells that are only available at higher level and not at /mentored level should be disabled completely, including AA skills that would be associated with higher levels. But with point above I think at least half of the player hotkeys would be usable since most spells have unique effects and are only replaced by upgrades rather than different spells.
What do you think?
Am I alone here thinking that the AA implementation has trivialized the lower level instances?
Nobody cares because you're all level 90 anyway?

I fail to see how the mentoring and AA systems as they stand impact your gameplay. If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one. If you think that people who work to gain many AA at low levels are OP, don't group with them. Everyone in this game is entitled to use the systems that are in place as they see fit (as long as it is within the limits of the EULA), including you.

If this is your first time playing, I can understand wanting to experience the zones and content as they were intended. But it is your responsibility to make sure you are getting the experience you want from this game, not the other players.

I usually only group with my guildies anymore, so this issue is moot amongst us. However, if/when I run a pug, I always specify that I am mentoring and that it will likely be a speed run. Most everyone is just fine with this. If not, they are not required to group with me.

Pakhet · 09-15-2010, 03:40 PM

The cap on PvE is 160 - 50/50/60 - you also can't get to the bottom line in shadows since that is 170 points spent.

The cap on PvP is ... 1.5* level I think? It has been a while since I played on PvP. But, it still makes PvE content kinda easy if you have the capped AA even then. But, honestly, so does MC, experts and a player who knows how to play without a lot of AA.

My monk in MC with only key spells experted and like 50 AA at level 40 could solo RoV. Lower tier stuff is easy, but I think it is meant to be. If you want a challenge, you have to do newer content... which means, leveling up.

There are progression guilds though that try to "set" their characters to be fair for the content they are doing. Perhaps you should look for one on your server? SMILEY

Nijia · 09-15-2010, 04:11 PM

Shimmer@Befallen wrote:

Willit@Crushbone wrote:
Fair enough
I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered.
It is overpowered but it is 1000x better than when it was first introduced.
(...).

Hey I agree and don't mean to ditch the mentoring in itself, it is a great addition to the game.

I'm just saying it can be improved still. Now it's good to very good in some situations, but it could be great.

Since this hasn't been copied from other notable MMO's (afaik), I'd love to see SOE going the full monty on their best ideas.

As for armors and other limitations of the first implementation of mentoring ,that's my point. It has to be practical. I think if they can find a way to downgrade spell tiers, it will remain practical. Heck for all I know this is what works under the hood, but the visuals on the hotbars are not updated. In that case, the AA is the main culprit. Now if there were more tiers to AA or a minimum level for AA's I don't see how this would hurt the game. There arent that many AA's that goes on your hotbar, so assuming spell tiers would downgrade you'd still have half your hotbars functional while mentoring. That's all I'm suggesting.

Yes there is a limit, and it's way too low. It lets you go down the branches of the first and second tree too soon, imho.

Another way would have been to limit the max of each AA, for example max 3/10 at level 30, 4/10 at level 40 and so on... I'm sure there are many other workable ideas.

But my apologies, I guess my post was mostly about AA overpower than /mentor.

Zutan · 09-15-2010, 04:22 PM

For me an example of a tad overpowered was my SK getting "Reaver" farily early on (something like 20 AA required)..

It is one of the few AA that can make a massive difference in soloing. ANY toon with a significant # of AA early in life will be very strong though, since all that content was designed for people with zero AA.

That being said, I dont think there should be restrictions other than the built in expansion based ones. At this point the lower level game is really not the focus of things so no reason to make it take any longer than necessary to get through.

Nijia · 09-15-2010, 04:31 PM

Theladorn wrote:

If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.

So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved.

Good luck finding a group without a single /mentoring person. It's very common to get a group with mentors who have at least 10 level difference with you for that very reason that makes EQ2X attractive to some: live servers are OLD and most people have high level characters.

I usually only group with my guildies anymore, so this issue is moot amongst us.

That's what I would have guessed... so there is no issue then.

I have the same issue with my guild, and they're really sweet. I'm going to tell them that I'd rather group with someone else everytime they /mentor? It has become inevitable nowadays for friends and guild mates to mentor to be able to do heroic quests together and such because not everyone is in the same level range. It is used much more broadly than for powerlevelling.

Theladorn · 09-15-2010, 04:41 PM

Well... I don't know what to tell you then. This is a six year old game and consequently it is going to be very top-heavy. I don't think that justifies making rather drastic changes to parts of the game that work fine for the vast majority of people.

Find a progression guild, or start one. Go play on EQ2X, where almost everyone is new and therefore low level. I'd rather SoE implement a progression server rather than alter the game any more.

Banerm · 09-15-2010, 05:01 PM

Theladorn wrote:

Well... I don't know what to tell you then. This is a six year old game and consequently it is going to be very top-heavy. I don't think that justifies making rather drastic changes to parts of the game that work fine for the vast majority of people.
Find a progression guild, or start one. Go play on EQ2X, where almost everyone is new and therefore low level. I'd rather SoE implement a progression server rather than alter the game any more.

100% Agree!

Odys · 09-15-2010, 11:19 PM

There is a positive aspect, since low levels are empty a single mentor can make new people visit old content. Similarly you can do TSO instances with only a few badly equiped people and a more powerfull mentor.

If a single mentor trivialize t1-t7, things are different at t8, a reduced (1-3) group with a level 90 mentor may have issue in some TSO instances (not in kunark ones except may be for maiden or runny2). The trivialisation degree also obviously depend on the mentor class : crusaders probably trivialize the most, followed by healers and next dps.

So in a sense mentoring allow people to run shard quests and to discover the large amount of TSO instances, and difficulty is still there especially with a reduced group and groupmates with bad equipment/low aas.

An opposite view would be to claim that mentoring is indeed the cause of the lack of players willing to group and not a way to compensate for it.

urgthock · 09-16-2010, 10:56 AM

Willit@Crushbone wrote:

Theladorn wrote:
If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.
So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved.

That is a very very bad analogy.

You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with.

Alvane · 09-16-2010, 12:34 PM

Shimmer@Befallen wrote:

QuestingCrafter wrote:
I don't remember having to re-suit, but I do remember having to use spells/CAs at or below the target mentored level ... what a pain!
I could be wrong but I thought you had to re-suit also. It was a long time ago.

Mentoring was introduced March 8, 2005! To put things into perspective, this was LU#4 after the original EQ2 Shattered Lands release.

"*** Mentoring ***

"- Act as a Mentor for your lower level friends with the new Mentoring system!- When you right click a lower-level group member, you will see an option to Mentor them.- Selecting "Mentor" will set your level to that of your lower-level friend, and you will operate at the same effective level as your group mate.- The Mentor and Apprentice will receive experience, loot, and quest credit as if the Mentor were the same level as the Apprentice. Mentors, be sure to revisit any of those quests or locations that you may have missed along the way!- The Apprentice will receive an experience bonus while under the guidance of a Mentor. Up to five other players can act as a Mentor for a single player at the same time (each increasing the experience bonus).- Mentors receive experience and advance toward their actual level while mentoring; the rate at which they receive XP depends on the level of their Apprentice. Mentoring someone below level 20 will earn very little XP for the Mentor, while taking an Apprentice that is level 25 or higher will earn a greater percentage of experience for the Mentor.- The effectiveness of your gear will scale down in level. You don't need to go out and get different gear to Mentor friends of different levels.- While you are Mentoring, you can use any of your abilities that you would normally have available at that level. - The Mentor's skill values equal those of a character with 80% XP toward their next level.- You can select "Stop Mentoring" if you wish to cease acting as a Mentor to your ally.- If the Mentor or Apprentice leaves the group or exits the game, the Mentor will return to his or her original level. - When one player starts Mentoring another, all maintained spells will be dropped from the Mentor. - A player who is being Mentored is not allowed to Mentor someone else.- You cannot turn off Mentoring while you are dead. If the group (or the Apprentice) disbands while you are dead, you stop Mentoring but remain dead until you release from your corpse or are revived.- Mentors will only gain combat XP when they are within reward range (50 meters) of their Apprentice.- Mentors will only gain XP if their Apprentice also gains experience."

Jrral · 09-16-2010, 01:57 PM

urgthock wrote:

Willit@Crushbone wrote:
Theladorn wrote:
If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.
So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved.
That is a very very bad analogy.
You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with.

Well, it actually can be an issue. Think a group of at-level characters (especially new players who don't have level 90 plat feeds and can't afford to get full Mastercrafted and Experts) trying to run Fallen Gate when a group with mentored-down 90s comes in to go named-hunting. The at-level group is trying to be careful and not over-pull, and along come the demigods who just run in, pull the entire room including the named, turn half the mobs into thick red clouds with the first AOE and spatter the rest over the walls in the next 10 seconds, then dash out into the next room. The at-level group's left wandering deserted rooms and hallways waiting on respawns and hoping the demigods get bored and go play somewhere else soon.

The overpowered state of mentored-down characters only doesn't affect others when it comes to instances. For overland content and shared dungeons, it very much does affect others (unless the high-levels are careful to only play when/where there's nobody else around).

urgthock · 09-16-2010, 03:44 PM

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

urgthock wrote:
Willit@Crushbone wrote:
Theladorn wrote:
If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.
So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved.
That is a very very bad analogy.
You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with.
Well, it actually can be an issue. Think a group of at-level characters (especially new players who don't have level 90 plat feeds and can't afford to get full Mastercrafted and Experts) trying to run Fallen Gate when a group with mentored-down 90s comes in to go named-hunting. The at-level group is trying to be careful and not over-pull, and along come the demigods who just run in, pull the entire room including the named, turn half the mobs into thick red clouds with the first AOE and spatter the rest over the walls in the next 10 seconds, then dash out into the next room. The at-level group's left wandering deserted rooms and hallways waiting on respawns and hoping the demigods get bored and go play somewhere else soon.
The overpowered state of mentored-down characters only doesn't affect others when it comes to instances. For overland content and shared dungeons, it very much does affect others (unless the high-levels are careful to only play when/where there's nobody else around).

What does what you said have to do with what I said? I am curious as to why you are even quoting me.

Lethe5683 · 09-16-2010, 03:49 PM

If you want a challenge the person mentoring can allways change to level appropriate gear. The AAs are not what make the major difference in power of someone who mentors, it's more the gear.

CrazyMoogle · 09-16-2010, 03:52 PM

The power of mentored characters needs to stay exactly the way it is right now.

yohann koldheart · 09-16-2010, 04:49 PM

Pakhet wrote:

The cap on PvE is 160 - 50/50/60 - you also can't get to the bottom line in shadows since that is 170 points spent.
The cap on PvP is ... 1.5* level I think? It has been a while since I played on PvP. But, it still makes PvE content kinda easy if you have the capped AA even then. But, honestly, so does MC, experts and a player who knows how to play without a lot of AA.

levels 10 to 29 on pvp you can only spend 1.5 x your level in aa.

on pvp your aa is only capped untill you hit level 30, then you can spend aa's just like you can on pve servers on a toon of the same level.

this was changed in the update before the BG's went live.

MurFalad · 09-16-2010, 05:09 PM

Willit@Crushbone wrote:

Fair enough
I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered.

Agreed, and its the reason that my high level characters do not go to low level dungeons. Your mention of not being able to get spells off before the mob dies was exactly what a couple of new to the game friends said.

Basically as the level has increased the overpowered play has increased too, so now everything below level 60 or so it utterly dead to me and might as well be grey.

I really don't care all that much what people want to do solo (well it sucks if you are in a group of 3 level 20's competing with a mentored down 90 in a contested dungeon), but I just want a way to play with low level people and have a bit of challenge, as that's what I find fun about EQ2.

Alvane · 09-16-2010, 05:37 PM

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

urgthock wrote:
Willit@Crushbone wrote:
Theladorn wrote:
If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.
So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved.
That is a very very bad analogy.
You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with.
Well, it actually can be an issue. Think a group of at-level characters (especially new players who don't have level 90 plat feeds and can't afford to get full Mastercrafted and Experts) trying to run Fallen Gate when a group with mentored-down 90s comes in to go named-hunting. The at-level group is trying to be careful and not over-pull, and along come the demigods who just run in, pull the entire room including the named, turn half the mobs into thick red clouds with the first AOE and spatter the rest over the walls in the next 10 seconds, then dash out into the next room. The at-level group's left wandering deserted rooms and hallways waiting on respawns and hoping the demigods get bored and go play somewhere else soon.
The overpowered state of mentored-down characters only doesn't affect others when it comes to instances. For overland content and shared dungeons, it very much does affect others (unless the high-levels are careful to only play when/where there's nobody else around).

This is true, and not only what you mentioned, the lower level character doesn't get a chance to learn the spells, weapon usage, timing, etc., because the MOBs are destroyed before the low level character can get off a second spell. SMILEY

I grouped once with higher level characters who mentored mine. Worse decision I made. I did nothing. I learned nothing about my character's abilities. I just wasn't fun for me at all, except for being with some friends!

Fast forward to 2010, a bunch of us made new characters, joined together as a static group meeting up once a week. Our mission is to clear every dungeon (or almost every one) in Norrath at level! We just went through 3/4ths of RE including the Overlord Throne Room and revisiting respawned names and other rooms. In about an hour, we hit whites, yellows and orange. They were all piece of cake - even a group at level - and we weren't even a full group - we had 5. None of us had any special equipment (just MC gear) and normal amount of AAs, except one - who had 130AAs.

RE even 4-5 years ago was not that easy! I remember spending hours - inside RE and never completing it in one session due to the many groups camping the names. Even running that dungeon after the "new" wore off, didn't make it any easier at level. So more has changed than just the "state of mentoring".

LordPazuzu · 09-16-2010, 06:37 PM

Willit@Crushbone wrote:

Fair enough
I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered.

It's supposed to be. It's a powerleveling tool.

gatrm · 09-16-2010, 06:47 PM

Alvane@Unrest wrote:

Fast forward to 2010, a bunch of us made new characters, joined together as a static group meeting up once a week. Our mission is to clear every dungeon (or almost every one) in Norrath at level! We just went through 3/4ths of RE including the Overlord Throne Room and revisiting respawned names and other rooms. In about an hour, we hit whites, yellows and orange. They were all piece of cake - even a group at level - and we weren't even a full group - we had 5. None of us had any special equipment (just MC gear) and normal amount of AAs, except one - who had 130AAs.
RE even 4-5 years ago was not that easy! I remember spending hours - inside RE and never completing it in one session due to the many groups camping the names. Even running that dungeon after the "new" wore off, didn't make it any easier at level. So more has changed than just the "state of mentoring".

Well remember that mastercrafted, treasured, and handcrafted gear have received major boosts in power since launch. How many people actually used mastercrafted gear back then? I know that I was using armor quest gear until low 30s and then I was happy to get a couple pieces of handcrafted. IIRC, standard gear for most non-raiders back then was handcrafted, with a smattering of mastercrafted and Adept spells, maybe a couple adept IIIs tossed in, but by no means all abilities upgraded.

Fast forward and the new Handcrafted is on par or better than the old legendary and the new Mastercrafted is tons better than the original Fabled. Take your same group you recently ran through 3/4s of RE with and put them in quested, dropped (for those first two the original gear, not the stuff from the new starting areas), and handcrafted gear using apprentice and adept spells and see how you do.

As far as the OP goes, with all the advances that have been made in both gear and AAs, even making mentors less godlike won't do much to counter the problem you are seeing. Even if SOE were to limit AA use to 50 until level 50, then 100 until level 70, etc until max, those players will still be godlike for the zones that they are in because those zones were designed for gear that is about 10x less effective and for use with 0 AAs.

IMO let mentors continue to be godlike, and if you see them in your low level dungeon when you are with an appropriate level group, send them a tell asking them to leave stuff to you. A lot of them will. And those that won't....well not much you can do about them, other than going to a different zone. I know that I once evaced when i pulled a room of stuff and noticed a true lowbie group there trying to work to the area I was in. I have had people do the same for me when I was on an appropriate level alt.

The good thing about having access to uber mastercrafted gear and AAs, is you can go with 2-3 appropriate level friends and do the instances/dungeons without mentors. PUGS are likely to have mentors, but you can always start your own groups or bring in some RL friends.

09-15-2010, 11:26 AM	#3
Nijia Server: Vox Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 448	Fair enough I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered.

09-15-2010, 12:41 PM	#6
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	QuestingCrafter wrote: I don't remember having to re-suit, but I do remember having to use spells/CAs at or below the target mentored level ... what a pain! I could be wrong but I thought you had to re-suit also. It was a long time ago.

09-15-2010, 01:50 PM	#9
Kordran Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,484	Level 90s mentoring down to the lower tiers are designed to be essentially running in godmode. The original point of the whole thing was essentially about powerleveling up a friend who's come to the game and catch them up to your level. It's also evolved into a means by which players can solo through lower tier heroic content to get AA. In any case, if you're looking for that "original" experience, then don't bring a mentor into your group. That said, I'd also point out that even if everyone is in their low 30s running through Nektropos Castle (for example), there's really still not much challenge at all to the content. Players are much more powerful than they were 5 years ago at the same level, and that old content was never adjusted to account for AAs and the vastly superior gear that everyone has easy access to (with stats and bonuses that a level 50 raider would have drooled over back in the day). So unless you're willing to reset all of your AAs and run around in handcrafted gear, you're not really getting an "authentic" experience anyway. __________________

09-15-2010, 02:22 PM	#10
wajamacallit Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 68	Shimmer@Befallen wrote: There is a cap on how much AA you can spend. SoE can't even get the replacing spells with the next tier working right ans you want them to start replacing skills for every tier randomly? Yeahhhh. TBH be lucky you have groups. If soe used your ideas then you probably wouldn't be getting in any. Some people like to feel powerful and go back to old dungeons and rip stuff up that killed them so many times when they were noobs. The AA cap applies to PvP only I believe. If not its really high as my SK is level 12 with 71 AA's has not reached the limit. I agree with the OP, with my AA's I am imune to most mobs up to and above red. I can pull entire areas and let them kill themselves on my imbued items with no problem. For mentoring I am surprised SOE have not changed the formulea used and reduce the levels by 5. So for example mentoring to 30 in the new system would make you as you mentored to 25. __________________

09-15-2010, 02:31 PM	#11
Banditman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7,459	There is a limit, even on PVE. You can only spend 50 in the first tree and 50 in the second tree until L70. There might still be the 60 point cap in the third tree too, it's been a while since I looked. You can earn as many as you like at any level, there was a L14 on these boards recently who had all 250 AA's earned. __________________

09-15-2010, 11:17 AM	#1
Nijia Server: Vox Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 448	One issue I have in the game is that on the live servers you'll often end up grouping with people who play high level characters mentoring down for quest, AA or just to have some company. When this happens, the dungeon run becomes trivial, all challenge is gone. Mobs are pulled in large groups and you're lucky if you can pull more than a couple skills /spells before the mob dies. What's more since everthing becomes trivial, this allows people to run through the zone and also spoils the pleasure for people running the instances the first time. Another issue I see is that the way you can spend so much AA at lower level trivializes the game and makes grouping less desirable. What puzzles me is why didn't SOE implement a minimum level and more tiers into the AA system? That main reason I cant think of is because it would be very impractical to lock spells and AA when mentoring down as this would render 2/3 of the player's hotkeys unusable. Another reason is AAs dont seem to be tied to character level, which appears to be by design. Why did SOE use "spend X points minimum" and not "level X minimum" with each AA ? Now that SOE has implemented a way to replace old spells with newer versions, and they have data that links spell upgrade "chains" I thought a workable AA downgrading could be: * While mentoring, temporarily replace spells with their "downgrades". Match character level to the spell tiers for every spell that has upgrades on the player's hotbar. * Skills/spells that are only available at higher level and not at /mentored level should be disabled completely, including AA skills that would be associated with higher levels. But with point above I think at least half of the player hotkeys would be usable since most spells have unique effects and are only replaced by upgrades rather than different spells. What do you think? Am I alone here thinking that the AA implementation has trivialized the lower level instances? Nobody cares because you're all level 90 anyway?

09-15-2010, 11:24 AM	#2
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	There is a cap on how much AA you can spend. SoE can't even get the replacing spells with the next tier working right ans you want them to start replacing skills for every tier randomly? Yeahhhh. TBH be lucky you have groups. If soe used your ideas then you probably wouldn't be getting in any. Some people like to feel powerful and go back to old dungeons and rip stuff up that killed them so many times when they were noobs.

09-15-2010, 11:38 AM	#4
Kizee Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,093	Willit@Crushbone wrote: Fair enough I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered. It is overpowered but it is 1000x better than when it was first introduced. Back then you had to actually wear the armor of that tier so you needed to have your bank filled with different tiered sets AND you would have to manually replace all your spells in your hotbars with that tiers spells. Needless to say not many people if any at all mentored.

09-15-2010, 12:33 PM	#5
QuestingCrafter Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 517	I don't remember having to re-suit, but I do remember having to use spells/CAs at or below the target mentored level ... what a pain!

09-15-2010, 12:43 PM	#7
Jaremai Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,271	I really wouldn't complain if my 90 took damage and did damage as a 30 when chrono'd to 30. As it stands it's more like he does the same damage as a group of 30s, and takes damage as if the mobs were all triple-downs. I do like some challenge to the game. If we're doing Nektropos (the 35 version) with our lowbies and someone wants to bring their chrono'd 80+ along, it makes me cringe. Might as well just autofollow that person and go watch tv. Maybe have a 2nd chrono person that will actually drop you to a power level matching the chrono'd level? That would allow people the option of being a god or being a mortal.

09-15-2010, 01:17 PM	#8
Gilli Server: Blackburrow Guild: Mithril Web Rank: Officer Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Northern Kentucky Posts: 335	Keep in mind that from level 90 the lower you go the more crazy powerful you get. I used to mentor a lot in maybe 10 or 15 level increments and then the power difference wasn't so extreme. It allowed me to trio some instances and still feel challenged, and it was a lot easier to grab two friends than it was to find five more or want to help. I really played these places just to see them, not because they had anything in them I actually needed (other than a little AA for some first time named). I like that the mentoring system allows for this. Having said that, I am totally with you on frowning when somebody joins who trivializes a dungeon. Honestly I feel the same way about having a chrono 90 join my nektropos group as I do when a 90 raider joins a pug of 85-88s running library for the first time. In both cases it doesn't matter much what I do, it's all about the uber powerful guy and how he or she chooses to run the instance. Now I know to be more careful about forming the group if I am really craving an at-con experience. Otherwise I'm not sure what else can be done about it. I did read a thread on the dungeon finder that said another game has a way to request relative power levels when you make a group. Haven't played it, haven't tried it... but in theory it sounds nice to set up groups looking for power ranges closer to your own. Might take longer, but being picky always does.

09-15-2010, 03:22 PM	#12
Theladorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 88	Willit@Crushbone wrote: One issue I have in the game is that on the live servers you'll often end up grouping with people who play high level characters mentoring down for quest, AA or just to have some company. When this happens, the dungeon run becomes trivial, all challenge is gone. Mobs are pulled in large groups and you're lucky if you can pull more than a couple skills /spells before the mob dies. What's more since everthing becomes trivial, this allows people to run through the zone and also spoils the pleasure for people running the instances the first time. Another issue I see is that the way you can spend so much AA at lower level trivializes the game and makes grouping less desirable. What puzzles me is why didn't SOE implement a minimum level and more tiers into the AA system? That main reason I cant think of is because it would be very impractical to lock spells and AA when mentoring down as this would render 2/3 of the player's hotkeys unusable. Another reason is AAs dont seem to be tied to character level, which appears to be by design. Why did SOE use "spend X points minimum" and not "level X minimum" with each AA ? Now that SOE has implemented a way to replace old spells with newer versions, and they have data that links spell upgrade "chains" I thought a workable AA downgrading could be: * While mentoring, temporarily replace spells with their "downgrades". Match character level to the spell tiers for every spell that has upgrades on the player's hotbar. * Skills/spells that are only available at higher level and not at /mentored level should be disabled completely, including AA skills that would be associated with higher levels. But with point above I think at least half of the player hotkeys would be usable since most spells have unique effects and are only replaced by upgrades rather than different spells. What do you think? Am I alone here thinking that the AA implementation has trivialized the lower level instances? Nobody cares because you're all level 90 anyway? I fail to see how the mentoring and AA systems as they stand impact your gameplay. If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one. If you think that people who work to gain many AA at low levels are OP, don't group with them. Everyone in this game is entitled to use the systems that are in place as they see fit (as long as it is within the limits of the EULA), including you. If this is your first time playing, I can understand wanting to experience the zones and content as they were intended. But it is your responsibility to make sure you are getting the experience you want from this game, not the other players. I usually only group with my guildies anymore, so this issue is moot amongst us. However, if/when I run a pug, I always specify that I am mentoring and that it will likely be a speed run. Most everyone is just fine with this. If not, they are not required to group with me.

09-15-2010, 03:40 PM	#13
Pakhet Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 239	The cap on PvE is 160 - 50/50/60 - you also can't get to the bottom line in shadows since that is 170 points spent. The cap on PvP is ... 1.5* level I think? It has been a while since I played on PvP. But, it still makes PvE content kinda easy if you have the capped AA even then. But, honestly, so does MC, experts and a player who knows how to play without a lot of AA. My monk in MC with only key spells experted and like 50 AA at level 40 could solo RoV. Lower tier stuff is easy, but I think it is meant to be. If you want a challenge, you have to do newer content... which means, leveling up. There are progression guilds though that try to "set" their characters to be fair for the content they are doing. Perhaps you should look for one on your server?

09-15-2010, 04:11 PM	#14
Nijia Server: Vox Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 448	Shimmer@Befallen wrote: Willit@Crushbone wrote: Fair enough I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered. It is overpowered but it is 1000x better than when it was first introduced. (...). Hey I agree and don't mean to ditch the mentoring in itself, it is a great addition to the game. I'm just saying it can be improved still. Now it's good to very good in some situations, but it could be great. Since this hasn't been copied from other notable MMO's (afaik), I'd love to see SOE going the full monty on their best ideas. As for armors and other limitations of the first implementation of mentoring ,that's my point. It has to be practical. I think if they can find a way to downgrade spell tiers, it will remain practical. Heck for all I know this is what works under the hood, but the visuals on the hotbars are not updated. In that case, the AA is the main culprit. Now if there were more tiers to AA or a minimum level for AA's I don't see how this would hurt the game. There arent that many AA's that goes on your hotbar, so assuming spell tiers would downgrade you'd still have half your hotbars functional while mentoring. That's all I'm suggesting. Yes there is a limit, and it's way too low. It lets you go down the branches of the first and second tree too soon, imho. Another way would have been to limit the max of each AA, for example max 3/10 at level 30, 4/10 at level 40 and so on... I'm sure there are many other workable ideas. But my apologies, I guess my post was mostly about AA overpower than /mentor.

09-15-2010, 04:22 PM	#15
Zutan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 497	For me an example of a tad overpowered was my SK getting "Reaver" farily early on (something like 20 AA required).. It is one of the few AA that can make a massive difference in soloing. ANY toon with a significant # of AA early in life will be very strong though, since all that content was designed for people with zero AA. That being said, I dont think there should be restrictions other than the built in expansion based ones. At this point the lower level game is really not the focus of things so no reason to make it take any longer than necessary to get through. __________________

09-15-2010, 04:31 PM	#16
Nijia Server: Vox Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 448	Theladorn wrote: *If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.* So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved. Good luck finding a group without a single /mentoring person. It's very common to get a group with mentors who have at least 10 level difference with you for that very reason that makes EQ2X attractive to some: live servers are OLD and most people have high level characters. *I usually only group with my guildies anymore, so this issue is moot amongst us.* That's what I would have guessed... so there is no issue then. I have the same issue with my guild, and they're really sweet. I'm going to tell them that I'd rather group with someone else everytime they /mentor? It has become inevitable nowadays for friends and guild mates to mentor to be able to do heroic quests together and such because not everyone is in the same level range. It is used much more broadly than for powerlevelling.

09-15-2010, 04:41 PM	#17
Theladorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 88	Well... I don't know what to tell you then. This is a six year old game and consequently it is going to be very top-heavy. I don't think that justifies making rather drastic changes to parts of the game that work fine for the vast majority of people. Find a progression guild, or start one. Go play on EQ2X, where almost everyone is new and therefore low level. I'd rather SoE implement a progression server rather than alter the game any more.

09-15-2010, 05:01 PM	#18
Banerm Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 159	Theladorn wrote: Well... I don't know what to tell you then. This is a six year old game and consequently it is going to be very top-heavy. I don't think that justifies making rather drastic changes to parts of the game that work fine for the vast majority of people. Find a progression guild, or start one. Go play on EQ2X, where almost everyone is new and therefore low level. I'd rather SoE implement a progression server rather than alter the game any more. 100% Agree! __________________ I tank therefor I am. Alistair - EQ2 Paladin Banerm - EQ2 Guardian Estavan - EQ2 SK Goldburg- EQ2 Bruiser Banerm - WoW Prot Paladin (Retired) Goldburg - WoW Feral Druid (Retired) Banerm - EQ Paladin (Retired)

09-15-2010, 11:19 PM	#19
Odys Server: Storms Guild: Eternitalis Rank: Cavalier Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,422	There is a positive aspect, since low levels are empty a single mentor can make new people visit old content. Similarly you can do TSO instances with only a few badly equiped people and a more powerfull mentor. If a single mentor trivialize t1-t7, things are different at t8, a reduced (1-3) group with a level 90 mentor may have issue in some TSO instances (not in kunark ones except may be for maiden or runny2). The trivialisation degree also obviously depend on the mentor class : crusaders probably trivialize the most, followed by healers and next dps. So in a sense mentoring allow people to run shard quests and to discover the large amount of TSO instances, and difficulty is still there especially with a reduced group and groupmates with bad equipment/low aas. An opposite view would be to claim that mentoring is indeed the cause of the lack of players willing to group and not a way to compensate for it. __________________

09-16-2010, 10:56 AM	#20
urgthock Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, TX. Posts: 1,308	Willit@Crushbone wrote: Theladorn wrote: *If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.* So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved. That is a very very bad analogy. You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with.

09-16-2010, 12:34 PM	#21
Alvane Server: Unrest Guild: Old Timer Guild Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,363	Shimmer@Befallen wrote: QuestingCrafter wrote: I don't remember having to re-suit, but I do remember having to use spells/CAs at or below the target mentored level ... what a pain! I could be wrong but I thought you had to re-suit also. It was a long time ago. Mentoring was introduced March 8, 2005! To put things into perspective, this was LU#4 after the original EQ2 Shattered Lands release. "* Mentoring * "- Act as a Mentor for your lower level friends with the new Mentoring system!- When you right click a lower-level group member, you will see an option to Mentor them.- Selecting "Mentor" will set your level to that of your lower-level friend, and you will operate at the same effective level as your group mate.- The Mentor and Apprentice will receive experience, loot, and quest credit as if the Mentor were the same level as the Apprentice. Mentors, be sure to revisit any of those quests or locations that you may have missed along the way!- The Apprentice will receive an experience bonus while under the guidance of a Mentor. Up to five other players can act as a Mentor for a single player at the same time (each increasing the experience bonus).- Mentors receive experience and advance toward their actual level while mentoring; the rate at which they receive XP depends on the level of their Apprentice. Mentoring someone below level 20 will earn very little XP for the Mentor, while taking an Apprentice that is level 25 or higher will earn a greater percentage of experience for the Mentor.- The effectiveness of your gear will scale down in level. You don't need to go out and get different gear to Mentor friends of different levels.- While you are Mentoring, you can use any of your abilities that you would normally have available at that level. - The Mentor's skill values equal those of a character with 80% XP toward their next level.- You can select "Stop Mentoring" if you wish to cease acting as a Mentor to your ally.- If the Mentor or Apprentice leaves the group or exits the game, the Mentor will return to his or her original level. - When one player starts Mentoring another, all maintained spells will be dropped from the Mentor. - A player who is being Mentored is not allowed to Mentor someone else.- You cannot turn off Mentoring while you are dead. If the group (or the Apprentice) disbands while you are dead, you stop Mentoring but remain dead until you release from your corpse or are revived.- Mentors will only gain combat XP when they are within reward range (50 meters) of their Apprentice.- Mentors will only gain XP if their Apprentice also gains experience."

09-16-2010, 01:57 PM	#22
Jrral Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,610	urgthock wrote: Willit@Crushbone wrote: Theladorn wrote: *If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.* So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved. That is a very very bad analogy. You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with. Well, it actually can be an issue. Think a group of at-level characters (especially new players who don't have level 90 plat feeds and can't afford to get full Mastercrafted and Experts) trying to run Fallen Gate when a group with mentored-down 90s comes in to go named-hunting. The at-level group is trying to be careful and not over-pull, and along come the demigods who just run in, pull the entire room including the named, turn half the mobs into thick red clouds with the first AOE and spatter the rest over the walls in the next 10 seconds, then dash out into the next room. The at-level group's left wandering deserted rooms and hallways waiting on respawns and hoping the demigods get bored and go play somewhere else soon. The overpowered state of mentored-down characters only doesn't affect others when it comes to instances. For overland content and shared dungeons, it very much does affect others (unless the high-levels are careful to only play when/where there's nobody else around).

09-16-2010, 03:44 PM	#23
urgthock Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Houston, TX. Posts: 1,308	Jrral@Unrest wrote: urgthock wrote: Willit@Crushbone wrote: Theladorn wrote: *If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.* So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved. That is a very very bad analogy. You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with. Well, it actually can be an issue. Think a group of at-level characters (especially new players who don't have level 90 plat feeds and can't afford to get full Mastercrafted and Experts) trying to run Fallen Gate when a group with mentored-down 90s comes in to go named-hunting. The at-level group is trying to be careful and not over-pull, and along come the demigods who just run in, pull the entire room including the named, turn half the mobs into thick red clouds with the first AOE and spatter the rest over the walls in the next 10 seconds, then dash out into the next room. The at-level group's left wandering deserted rooms and hallways waiting on respawns and hoping the demigods get bored and go play somewhere else soon. The overpowered state of mentored-down characters only doesn't affect others when it comes to instances. For overland content and shared dungeons, it very much does affect others (unless the high-levels are careful to only play when/where there's nobody else around). What does what you said have to do with what I said? I am curious as to why you are even quoting me.

09-16-2010, 03:49 PM	#24
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	If you want a challenge the person mentoring can allways change to level appropriate gear. The AAs are not what make the major difference in power of someone who mentors, it's more the gear.

09-16-2010, 03:52 PM	#25
CrazyMoogle Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 645	The power of mentored characters needs to stay exactly the way it is right now.

09-16-2010, 04:49 PM	#26
yohann koldheart Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: harrisburg,PA Posts: 1,601	Pakhet wrote: The cap on PvE is 160 - 50/50/60 - you also can't get to the bottom line in shadows since that is 170 points spent. The cap on PvP is ... 1.5* level I think? It has been a while since I played on PvP. But, it still makes PvE content kinda easy if you have the capped AA even then. But, honestly, so does MC, experts and a player who knows how to play without a lot of AA. levels 10 to 29 on pvp you can only spend 1.5 x your level in aa. on pvp your aa is only capped untill you hit level 30, then you can spend aa's just like you can on pve servers on a toon of the same level. this was changed in the update before the BG's went live.

09-16-2010, 05:09 PM	#27
MurFalad Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Tonbridge, UK Posts: 1,360	Willit@Crushbone wrote: Fair enough I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered. Agreed, and its the reason that my high level characters do not go to low level dungeons. Your mention of not being able to get spells off before the mob dies was exactly what a couple of new to the game friends said. Basically as the level has increased the overpowered play has increased too, so now everything below level 60 or so it utterly dead to me and might as well be grey. I really don't care all that much what people want to do solo (well it sucks if you are in a group of 3 level 20's competing with a mentored down 90 in a contested dungeon), but I just want a way to play with low level people and have a bit of challenge, as that's what I find fun about EQ2.

09-16-2010, 05:37 PM	#28
Alvane Server: Unrest Guild: Old Timer Guild Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 2,363	Jrral@Unrest wrote: urgthock wrote: Willit@Crushbone wrote: Theladorn wrote: *If you think grouping with a mentored high level player trivializes content, then don't group with one.* So if my neighbours are putting the stereo at max volume at 4 am I guess I should put on earplugs, problem solved. That is a very very bad analogy. You have no control over what your neighbors do. However, you have TOTAL control over who you group with. Well, it actually can be an issue. Think a group of at-level characters (especially new players who don't have level 90 plat feeds and can't afford to get full Mastercrafted and Experts) trying to run Fallen Gate when a group with mentored-down 90s comes in to go named-hunting. The at-level group is trying to be careful and not over-pull, and along come the demigods who just run in, pull the entire room including the named, turn half the mobs into thick red clouds with the first AOE and spatter the rest over the walls in the next 10 seconds, then dash out into the next room. The at-level group's left wandering deserted rooms and hallways waiting on respawns and hoping the demigods get bored and go play somewhere else soon. The overpowered state of mentored-down characters only doesn't affect others when it comes to instances. For overland content and shared dungeons, it very much does affect others (unless the high-levels are careful to only play when/where there's nobody else around). This is true, and not only what you mentioned, the lower level character doesn't get a chance to learn the spells, weapon usage, timing, etc., because the MOBs are destroyed before the low level character can get off a second spell. I grouped once with higher level characters who mentored mine. Worse decision I made. I did nothing. I learned nothing about my character's abilities. I just wasn't fun for me at all, except for being with some friends! Fast forward to 2010, a bunch of us made new characters, joined together as a static group meeting up once a week. Our mission is to clear every dungeon (or almost every one) in Norrath at level! We just went through 3/4ths of RE including the Overlord Throne Room and revisiting respawned names and other rooms. In about an hour, we hit whites, yellows and orange. They were all piece of cake - even a group at level - and we weren't even a full group - we had 5. None of us had any special equipment (just MC gear) and normal amount of AAs, except one - who had 130AAs. RE even 4-5 years ago was not that easy! I remember spending hours - inside RE and never completing it in one session due to the many groups camping the names. Even running that dungeon after the "new" wore off, didn't make it any easier at level. So more has changed than just the "state of mentoring".

09-16-2010, 06:37 PM	#29
LordPazuzu Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 2,157	Willit@Crushbone wrote: Fair enough I still think the mentor "downscaling" is overpowered. It's supposed to be. It's a powerleveling tool.

09-16-2010, 06:47 PM	#30
gatrm Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 545	Alvane@Unrest wrote: Fast forward to 2010, a bunch of us made new characters, joined together as a static group meeting up once a week. Our mission is to clear every dungeon (or almost every one) in Norrath at level! We just went through 3/4ths of RE including the Overlord Throne Room and revisiting respawned names and other rooms. In about an hour, we hit whites, yellows and orange. They were all piece of cake - even a group at level - and we weren't even a full group - we had 5. None of us had any special equipment (just MC gear) and normal amount of AAs, except one - who had 130AAs. RE even 4-5 years ago was not that easy! I remember spending hours - inside RE and never completing it in one session due to the many groups camping the names. Even running that dungeon after the "new" wore off, didn't make it any easier at level. So more has changed than just the "state of mentoring". Well remember that mastercrafted, treasured, and handcrafted gear have received major boosts in power since launch. How many people actually used mastercrafted gear back then? I know that I was using armor quest gear until low 30s and then I was happy to get a couple pieces of handcrafted. IIRC, standard gear for most non-raiders back then was handcrafted, with a smattering of mastercrafted and Adept spells, maybe a couple adept IIIs tossed in, but by no means all abilities upgraded. Fast forward and the new Handcrafted is on par or better than the old legendary and the new Mastercrafted is tons better than the original Fabled. Take your same group you recently ran through 3/4s of RE with and put them in quested, dropped (for those first two the original gear, not the stuff from the new starting areas), and handcrafted gear using apprentice and adept spells and see how you do. As far as the OP goes, with all the advances that have been made in both gear and AAs, even making mentors less godlike won't do much to counter the problem you are seeing. Even if SOE were to limit AA use to 50 until level 50, then 100 until level 70, etc until max, those players will still be godlike for the zones that they are in because those zones were designed for gear that is about 10x less effective and for use with 0 AAs. IMO let mentors continue to be godlike, and if you see them in your low level dungeon when you are with an appropriate level group, send them a tell asking them to leave stuff to you. A lot of them will. And those that won't....well not much you can do about them, other than going to a different zone. I know that I once evaced when i pulled a room of stuff and noticed a true lowbie group there trying to work to the area I was in. I have had people do the same for me when I was on an appropriate level alt. The good thing about having access to uber mastercrafted gear and AAs, is you can go with 2-3 appropriate level friends and do the instances/dungeons without mentors. PUGS are likely to have mentors, but you can always start your own groups or bring in some RL friends.