id pay 25 dollars for a class change potion

Ravaan · 05-22-2010, 09:30 PM

let the character stay the same level/AA, have to get their own gear and weapons. I would buy one in a heartbeat as i don't have the desire to play through the AA grind again.

ssumthing · 05-22-2010, 09:54 PM

Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no...

Guy De Alsace · 05-22-2010, 10:14 PM

Dont think its a good idea cos you would have people flip flopping between whatever is flavour of the month all the time instead of making good out of what they have.

Crismorn · 05-22-2010, 10:16 PM

ssumthing wrote:

Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no...

You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.

Sar · 05-22-2010, 10:21 PM

...

Guy De Alsace · 05-22-2010, 10:39 PM

Crismorn wrote:

ssumthing wrote:
Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no...
You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.

I'm sorry but lol. In one session I found out what toughness was, that Int no longer mattered to my class after the revamp, what potency does, how to get to Paineel, which rares applied to my class, that SF was more forgiving than TSO, what Marks of Manaar were...all in the first ten minutes of resubbing and getting to sundered frontier for the first time. This was at level 80.

Prior to that I discovered that my Ranger could use more than one poison at once, was able to use chain mail (i kid you not), was SUPPOSED to be using his bow and not melee all the time. I learnt about jousting, weapon speeds, decent equipment that would help me and not just look good in the grind to 50 then 60 etc...

Thats on two toons. I learn something new about this game literally every single day.

Crismorn · 05-22-2010, 10:54 PM

Guy De Alsace wrote:

Crismorn wrote:
ssumthing wrote:
Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no...
You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.
I'm sorry but lol. In one session I found out what toughness was, that Int no longer mattered to my class after the revamp, what potency does, how to get to Paineel, which rares applied to my class, that SF was more forgiving than TSO, what Marks of Manaar were...all in the first ten minutes of resubbing and getting to sundered frontier for the first time. This was at level 80.
Prior to that I discovered that my Ranger could use more than one poison at once, was able to use chain mail (i kid you not), was SUPPOSED to be using his bow and not melee all the time. I learnt about jousting, weapon speeds, decent equipment that would help me and not just look good in the grind to 50 then 60 etc...
Thats on two toons. I learn something new about this game literally every single day.

You could learn all of that by reading forums, he was talking about learning how to play his class which can only be done at cap.

I can see how that statement would be confusing for most of the players who read these forums.

Jrral · 05-22-2010, 11:03 PM

Crismorn wrote:

You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.

ROFL.

Yes, you do learn a lot. You learn the basics of your class. For a tank, for instance, you learn how to pull mobs and how to peel what you want off without bringing the whole room. If you're grouping with even one experienced player, you'll learn things like how to turn and position mobs, how to watch for the signs a DPS class is starting to pull aggro off you and how to get the mob back. You won't learn the strategies of the high-end mobs until you get there, but there's a lot to learn that isn't all about the top end. Nor will you learn most of it in T1 and T2, but then you'll solo through those tiers so fast that if you blink you'll miss entire levels going by. But in T3-T8 you'll learn many things about your class and how to play it.

If, that is, you're interested in learning at all. Nobody and nothing can teach a thing to someone who thinks they don't need to learn, or worse that there's nothing to learn. All you can do is avoid that sort, because they aren't going to magically change just because they hit the level cap.

Lethe5683 · 05-23-2010, 01:09 AM

ssumthing wrote:

I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played.

Only for some people.

Priddles · 05-23-2010, 01:39 AM

While some people are beyond hope for any sort of neural activity, for most people it does greatly help to level up through the class and see how abilities are used as they get them, instead of having 500 abilities to choose from at level 90 and no idea what any of them do.

Crismorn · 05-23-2010, 01:53 AM

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

Crismorn wrote:
You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.
ROFL.
Yes, you do learn a lot. You learn the basics of your class. For a tank, for instance, you learn how to pull mobs and how to peel what you want off without bringing the whole room. If you're grouping with even one experienced player, you'll learn things like how to turn and position mobs, how to watch for the signs a DPS class is starting to pull aggro off you and how to get the mob back. You won't learn the strategies of the high-end mobs until you get there, but there's a lot to learn that isn't all about the top end. Nor will you learn most of it in T1 and T2, but then you'll solo through those tiers so fast that if you blink you'll miss entire levels going by. But in T3-T8 you'll learn many things about your class and how to play it.
If, that is, you're interested in learning at all. Nobody and nothing can teach a thing to someone who thinks they don't need to learn, or worse that there's nothing to learn. All you can do is avoid that sort, because they aren't going to magically change just because they hit the level cap.

And you will re-learn all of that at cap because its an entirely different game.

Oh I know full well that there is a great deal to learn in this game, at the cap, when you have all your abilities and you can begin to actually learn how to play your class properly.

Like I said previously I can see how that statement is confusing for most of the people who post here, but its true nonetheless

Notsovilepriest · 05-23-2010, 03:47 AM

Powerleveling is more prevalent than ever, Myself, I took an Inq and in just over 1 day playtime hit 90. Granted I had played as an Inq before, but there is nothing you learn really at lower levels that will help you at cap. Like Davionx has said, the game is completely different at max level before. This potion will not change anything with people not knowing their classes. If a person understands the game in general, including the mechanics, they will do well with any class after reading the abilities over and just messing around with it for a few hours.

Jrral · 05-23-2010, 03:56 AM

Crismorn wrote:

And you will re-learn all of that at cap because its an entirely different game.

Or you won't learn it at all. Before SF I ran into way too many level 80 scouts and mages who have no idea whatsoever how to manage their aggro. They'd unload with every heavy hitter in their arsenal, completely ignoring the hate meter, then wonder why the mob's on them instead of the tank. This when they know they're raid-geared and running with a tank who's level 78 wearing quested and mastercrafted gear. I'd see tanks who, when running with a non-raiding healer, would pull an entire room of triple-ups just like they would if they were running with their raid-geared healers and then wonder why the group wiped. In short, I ran into a lot of players who apparently had no clue whatsoever how to play their class in anything except an end-game raid-geared environment.

Celelyris · 05-23-2010, 04:24 AM

Betray, because there's no way they're going to let you change your archetype and keep anything.

Just use the recruit a friend invitation system, powerlevel a friend, spouse or child on an account you own or dual box by mentoring and have the second on auto-follow to get there. Then pay the amount to move the character to your main account. I can get 1-80 in less than 2 weeks solo with 4 hours of play a day. Much less 1-90 in a week if I push it.

EasternKing · 05-23-2010, 05:42 AM

Celelyris wrote:

Betray, because there's no way they're going to let you change your archetype and keep anything.
Just use the recruit a friend invitation system, powerlevel a friend, spouse or child on an account you own or dual box by mentoring and have the second on auto-follow to get there. Then pay the amount to move the character to your main account. I can get 1-80 in less than 2 weeks solo with 4 hours of play a day. Much less 1-90 in a week if I push it.

The issue is not adventure leveling, the issue is the godforsaken amount of time and sheer mind numbing quest grinding you have to do to get AA. yes you can move the slider as you go, you still wont get more than 140AA before you hit cap, leaving you 110 AA to grind from quests, simply because you get so much more AA exp.

Grinding mobs with the slider at 100% needs to be viable.

Lethe5683 · 05-23-2010, 06:32 AM

EasternKing wrote:

Celelyris wrote:
Betray, because there's no way they're going to let you change your archetype and keep anything.
Just use the recruit a friend invitation system, powerlevel a friend, spouse or child on an account you own or dual box by mentoring and have the second on auto-follow to get there. Then pay the amount to move the character to your main account. I can get 1-80 in less than 2 weeks solo with 4 hours of play a day. Much less 1-90 in a week if I push it.
The issue is not adventure leveling, the issue is the godforsaken amount of time and sheer mind numbing quest grinding you have to do to get AA. yes you can move the slider as you go, you still wont get more than 140AA before you hit cap, leaving you 110 AA to grind from quests, simply because you get so much more AA exp.
Grinding mobs with the slider at 100% needs to be viable.

This is exactly the problem, if I didn't worry about AA I could level 10 characters to 90 in less time than it takes to get one to 90 and 250 AAs.

Rami · 05-23-2010, 06:37 AM

Is AB down again? I can't get back in game SMILEY

Nightshade · 05-23-2010, 07:43 AM

I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance.

If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind.

Guy De Alsace · 05-23-2010, 09:48 AM

Thats the most bizarre statement - you learn nothing from your class unless you are at cap? Its just an absurd statement to make!

If I took a class I'd never played at 90 I wouldnt have a clue where to start. If I'd played one all the way to 90 then I would know the class intimately.

If I learn to drive then someone gives me a formula one car I'd likely go and kill myself in short order. If I'd risen through the formulas to drive that same car I'd be a professional and competitive driver.

erin · 05-23-2010, 10:08 AM

Guy De Alsace wrote:

Thats the most bizarre statement - you learn nothing from your class unless you are at cap? Its just an absurd statement to make!
If I took a class I'd never played at 90 I wouldnt have a clue where to start. If I'd played one all the way to 90 then I would know the class intimately.
If I learn to drive then someone gives me a formula one car I'd likely go and kill myself in short order. If I'd risen through the formulas to drive that same car I'd be a professional and competitive driver.

Its really somewhere in between though. If you'd been driving a sedan for 20 years, and then someone gave you their pickup truck to drive, you would figure it out in a few minutes. If you were a good driver in your sedan, you'd be a good driver in their pickup.

The point some of the elitists are making in this thread (and yes, the elitist attitude comes through in spades) is that a good player can play any class, because they've seen it played. And that the game changes so much at cap (for end game at least) that anything you learn before cap is negligible.

Its somewhere in between. Most players can pick up a level 90 character and figure it out in a few days. But quite likely they won't use that character to its greatest abilities. But can they be average? Sure. If they are hardcore types that pay attention to every nuance of the game, they might even be above average on a level 90 they've never played.

Most players would struggle to become average in this situation.

Skull_Splitter · 05-23-2010, 12:28 PM

A simple thought is that for many EQ2 players it's not their first mmorpg.

Many have played other classes in other games and many play multiple classes in EQ2.

It's not that difficult to learn to play a character.

Heck (annoying) how the gaming populous has dumbed games down to this very aspect.

LFG need "tank, healer, DPS, support..."

The basics of this have gone on for decades since D&D classes.

But we've all seen the arguments of what sub class is best/better....

And I laugh/cry all day long at people that just can't handle not having a "proper group."

Rahatmattata · 05-23-2010, 12:48 PM

Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote:

I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance.
If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind.

It may be a costly PITA to implement, but it's not impossible. If they had enough time and money they could re-write the entire game from the ground up, starting with a single blank page and a flashing cursor.

Wingrider01 · 05-23-2010, 01:09 PM

Rahatmattata wrote:

Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote:
I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance.
If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind.
It may be a costly PITA to implement, but it's not impossible. If they had enough time and money they could re-write the entire game from the ground up, starting with a single blank page and a flashing cursor.

No ROI, unless the cost of class change makes up for it - 100.00 - 200.00 US would problably be a starting point and a double of the subscription costs

Amphibia · 05-23-2010, 01:19 PM

Crismorn wrote:

ssumthing wrote:
Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no...
You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.

This.

Ravaan · 05-23-2010, 01:43 PM

I just shake my head when someone says people wont know how to play the class. you swear EQ2 is rocket science or something, the game really isn't that hard. like some have said you don't learn anything from 1-90 especially since most spend the majority of their time soloing through the crappy, mundane boring quests to get AA (yes AA is a major problem in this game).

Alenna · 05-23-2010, 02:02 PM

Rahatmattata wrote:

Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote:
I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance.
If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind.
It may be a costly PITA to implement, but it's not impossible. If they had enough time and money they could re-write the entire game from the ground up, starting with a single blank page and a flashing cursor.

but then would it be EQ2?

Jrral · 05-23-2010, 02:15 PM

Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote:

I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance.

What I heard from the devs is that originally class changes were infeasible because the character data format was literally different for each class. The only changes possible were between the pairs that your were originally allowed to betray between, because those were the only pairs where the character data was compatible. So when changing between a berserker and a guardian it was just a matter of flipping some flags in the character data and replacing spell/CA items, but to change between a berserker and a paladin you'd literally have to create an entirely new character from scratch to get the data format right and then destroy the old character. Except that because of the way the database worked, you'd have to destroy the old character first, then create the new character using the old character's spot in the database. Of course once you've destroyed the old character you've lost everything about it (owned items, name, AA points, XP, etc.), so how are you going to recreate it? It was probably technically possible, but it was a huge amount of work and even more work to make it reliable and eliminate any possibility of losing anything if something went wrong (eg. someone trying to create a new character with that name in the window between destroying the old character and fully creating the new one).

Now, all of the above is probably subject to change, and I'm pretty sure the devs are working on getting things to the point where class changes are possible. But they don't want a constant stream of "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?", so the official position'll probably remain "It can't be done." until they've got it pretty much finished and working reliably.

And even then they may not admit to it. Even if they get it technically working, there's issues. For one, it'd be a bad thing from a community and balance standpoint to let people level up to cap in a solo-friendly class and then switch over to a solo-unfriendly but more desirable class with level and such intact. But if you don't allow that, if you (as with tradeskill class changes) reset level back to an early point, what do you do about things like quests? You don't want to leave them all in the journal as completed, that'd make it a pain to level up the new class. But you probably don't want to delete them across the board, some quests aren't in game anymore and people are often proud of having those quests in their journals and/or having the rewards from them. All of that's resolvable, but how exactly to resolve it needs to be figured out before class changes go in-game.

Alenna · 05-23-2010, 02:30 PM

Ravaan wrote:

I just shake my head when someone says people wont know how to play the class. you swear EQ2 is rocket science or something, the game really isn't that hard. like some have said you don't learn anything from 1-90 especially since most spend the majority of their time soloing through the crappy, mundane boring quests to get AA (yes AA is a major problem in this game).

Hmm would I know how to play a Ranger if I hadn't taken her through 1-90? yes. Could I play her so well that even with the nerfs managed topped the parse in one fight while raiding with guildies the other day(granted we are a very casual guild)? Nope that took me learning what CAs helped the best what poisens and equipment were best for my class. how much damage would pull the aggro off my tank took me playing from 1-90 so I could get a feel for the different situations I'd find myself in. All tanks are not the same. for SK, and the tanks where the players knew their class I can use harder hitting CAs for classess or tanks not as well equipped as myself yeah I can pull the aggro off end up dieing(I don't expect the healer to heal my sorry behind if I make that mistake) so I have learned to gaige when to hit and when not to and that wasn't by having someone give me a level 90 Ranger when I started. it was through playing her and putting her into different situations what she could and couldn't do and yes even the solo grinding, and mundane quests helped to teach me that.

And the main thing for me is would I have had as much FUN with my Ranger if she had just been handed to me at 90? Nope that also took playing her from 1-90 and developing her to be a unique toon who has a story to tell from all the adventures she went on while leveling.

Notsovilepriest · 05-23-2010, 02:38 PM

Alenna@Guk wrote:

Ravaan wrote:
I just shake my head when someone says people wont know how to play the class. you swear EQ2 is rocket science or something, the game really isn't that hard. like some have said you don't learn anything from 1-90 especially since most spend the majority of their time soloing through the crappy, mundane boring quests to get AA (yes AA is a major problem in this game).
Hmm would I know how to play a Ranger if I hadn't taken her through 1-90? yes. Could I play her so well that even with the nerfs managed topped the parse in one fight while raiding with guildies the other day(granted we are a very casual guild)? Nope that took me learning what CAs helped the best what poisens and equipment were best for my class. how much damage would pull the aggro off my tank took me playing from 1-90 so I could get a feel for the different situations I'd find myself in. All tanks are not the same. for SK, and the tanks where the players knew their class I can use harder hitting CAs for classess or tanks not as well equipped as myself yeah I can pull the aggro off end up dieing(I don't expect the healer to heal my sorry behind if I make that mistake) so I have learned to gaige when to hit and when not to and that wasn't by having someone give me a level 90 Ranger when I started. it was through playing her and putting her into different situations what she could and couldn't do and yes even the solo grinding, and mundane quests helped to teach me that.
And the main thing for me is would I have had as much FUN with my Ranger if she had just been handed to me at 90? Nope that also took playing her from 1-90 and developing her to be a unique toon who has a story to tell from all the adventures she went on while leveling.

You can get max efficency casting orders and CA rotations from forums and still top a parse if you understand mechanics(which includes how to gear your toon)

Eridu · 05-23-2010, 02:41 PM

I'd like it if they'd just allow people to change adventure class by going back to level 1 or 9 or some such. My sage who's all tradeskill, mara, odus etc factioned; done it's crafter quests; collected all the sometimes insanely priced recipe books, hates being a coercer and would much rather be a mystic. I could delete and re-roll it as a mystic but all that work, and as with AA's much of the crafting stuff isn't just leveling, it's faction and quests now, not to mention all the Live Event etc goodies.

It'd be happy happy stuff if this could be done.

05-22-2010, 10:16 PM	#4
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	ssumthing wrote: Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no... You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2.

05-22-2010, 10:39 PM	#6
Guy De Alsace Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,902	Crismorn wrote: ssumthing wrote: Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no... You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2. I'm sorry but lol. In one session I found out what toughness was, that Int no longer mattered to my class after the revamp, what potency does, how to get to Paineel, which rares applied to my class, that SF was more forgiving than TSO, what Marks of Manaar were...all in the first ten minutes of resubbing and getting to sundered frontier for the first time. This was at level 80. Prior to that I discovered that my Ranger could use more than one poison at once, was able to use chain mail (i kid you not), was SUPPOSED to be using his bow and not melee all the time. I learnt about jousting, weapon speeds, decent equipment that would help me and not just look good in the grind to 50 then 60 etc... Thats on two toons. I learn something new about this game literally every single day.

05-22-2010, 10:54 PM	#7
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	Guy De Alsace wrote: Crismorn wrote: ssumthing wrote: Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no... You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2. I'm sorry but lol. In one session I found out what toughness was, that Int no longer mattered to my class after the revamp, what potency does, how to get to Paineel, which rares applied to my class, that SF was more forgiving than TSO, what Marks of Manaar were...all in the first ten minutes of resubbing and getting to sundered frontier for the first time. This was at level 80. Prior to that I discovered that my Ranger could use more than one poison at once, was able to use chain mail (i kid you not), was SUPPOSED to be using his bow and not melee all the time. I learnt about jousting, weapon speeds, decent equipment that would help me and not just look good in the grind to 50 then 60 etc... Thats on two toons. I learn something new about this game literally every single day. You could learn all of that by reading forums, he was talking about learning how to play his class which can only be done at cap. I can see how that statement would be confusing for most of the players who read these forums.

05-22-2010, 11:03 PM	#8
Jrral Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,610	Crismorn wrote: You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2. ROFL. Yes, you do learn a lot. You learn the basics of your class. For a tank, for instance, you learn how to pull mobs and how to peel what you want off without bringing the whole room. If you're grouping with even one experienced player, you'll learn things like how to turn and position mobs, how to watch for the signs a DPS class is starting to pull aggro off you and how to get the mob back. You won't learn the strategies of the high-end mobs until you get there, but there's a lot to learn that isn't all about the top end. Nor will you learn most of it in T1 and T2, but then you'll solo through those tiers so fast that if you blink you'll miss entire levels going by. But in T3-T8 you'll learn many things about your class and how to play it. If, that is, you're interested in learning at all. Nobody and nothing can teach a thing to someone who thinks they don't need to learn, or worse that there's nothing to learn. All you can do is avoid that sort, because they aren't going to magically change just because they hit the level cap.

05-23-2010, 01:09 AM	#9
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	ssumthing wrote: I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. Only for some people.

05-22-2010, 09:30 PM	#1
Ravaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 554	let the character stay the same level/AA, have to get their own gear and weapons. I would buy one in a heartbeat as i don't have the desire to play through the AA grind again.

05-22-2010, 09:54 PM	#2
ssumthing Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 145	Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no...

05-22-2010, 10:14 PM	#3
Guy De Alsace Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,902	Dont think its a good idea cos you would have people flip flopping between whatever is flavour of the month all the time instead of making good out of what they have.

05-22-2010, 10:21 PM	#5
Sar General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 239	...

05-23-2010, 01:39 AM	#10
Priddles Server: Crushbone Guild: Carpe Diem Rank: Noob Sawces Loremaster Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 69	While some people are beyond hope for any sort of neural activity, for most people it does greatly help to level up through the class and see how abilities are used as they get them, instead of having 500 abilities to choose from at level 90 and no idea what any of them do.

05-23-2010, 01:53 AM	#11
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	Jrral@Unrest wrote: Crismorn wrote: You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2. ROFL. Yes, you do learn a lot. You learn the basics of your class. For a tank, for instance, you learn how to pull mobs and how to peel what you want off without bringing the whole room. If you're grouping with even one experienced player, you'll learn things like how to turn and position mobs, how to watch for the signs a DPS class is starting to pull aggro off you and how to get the mob back. You won't learn the strategies of the high-end mobs until you get there, but there's a lot to learn that isn't all about the top end. Nor will you learn most of it in T1 and T2, but then you'll solo through those tiers so fast that if you blink you'll miss entire levels going by. But in T3-T8 you'll learn many things about your class and how to play it. If, that is, you're interested in learning at all. Nobody and nothing can teach a thing to someone who thinks they don't need to learn, or worse that there's nothing to learn. All you can do is avoid that sort, because they aren't going to magically change just because they hit the level cap. And you will re-learn all of that at cap because its an entirely different game. Oh I know full well that there is a great deal to learn in this game, at the cap, when you have all your abilities and you can begin to actually learn how to play your class properly. Like I said previously I can see how that statement is confusing for most of the people who post here, but its true nonetheless

05-23-2010, 03:47 AM	#12
Notsovilepriest Server: Nagafen Guild: Ill Gotten Gain Rank: Raider Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,184	Powerleveling is more prevalent than ever, Myself, I took an Inq and in just over 1 day playtime hit 90. Granted I had played as an Inq before, but there is nothing you learn really at lower levels that will help you at cap. Like Davionx has said, the game is completely different at max level before. This potion will not change anything with people not knowing their classes. If a person understands the game in general, including the mechanics, they will do well with any class after reading the abilities over and just messing around with it for a few hours. __________________

05-23-2010, 03:56 AM	#13
Jrral Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,610	Crismorn wrote: And you will re-learn all of that at cap because its an entirely different game. Or you won't learn it at all. Before SF I ran into way too many level 80 scouts and mages who have no idea whatsoever how to manage their aggro. They'd unload with every heavy hitter in their arsenal, completely ignoring the hate meter, then wonder why the mob's on them instead of the tank. This when they know they're raid-geared and running with a tank who's level 78 wearing quested and mastercrafted gear. I'd see tanks who, when running with a non-raiding healer, would pull an entire room of triple-ups just like they would if they were running with their raid-geared healers and then wonder why the group wiped. In short, I ran into a lot of players who apparently had no clue whatsoever how to play their class in anything except an end-game raid-geared environment.

05-23-2010, 04:24 AM	#14
Celelyris Lord Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 10	Betray, because there's no way they're going to let you change your archetype and keep anything. Just use the recruit a friend invitation system, powerlevel a friend, spouse or child on an account you own or dual box by mentoring and have the second on auto-follow to get there. Then pay the amount to move the character to your main account. I can get 1-80 in less than 2 weeks solo with 4 hours of play a day. Much less 1-90 in a week if I push it.

05-23-2010, 05:42 AM	#15
EasternKing Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,023	Celelyris wrote: Betray, because there's no way they're going to let you change your archetype and keep anything. Just use the recruit a friend invitation system, powerlevel a friend, spouse or child on an account you own or dual box by mentoring and have the second on auto-follow to get there. Then pay the amount to move the character to your main account. I can get 1-80 in less than 2 weeks solo with 4 hours of play a day. Much less 1-90 in a week if I push it. The issue is not adventure leveling, the issue is the godforsaken amount of time and sheer mind numbing quest grinding you have to do to get AA. yes you can move the slider as you go, you still wont get more than 140AA before you hit cap, leaving you 110 AA to grind from quests, simply because you get so much more AA exp. Grinding mobs with the slider at 100% needs to be viable.

05-23-2010, 06:32 AM	#16
Lethe5683 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 5,351	EasternKing wrote: Celelyris wrote: Betray, because there's no way they're going to let you change your archetype and keep anything. Just use the recruit a friend invitation system, powerlevel a friend, spouse or child on an account you own or dual box by mentoring and have the second on auto-follow to get there. Then pay the amount to move the character to your main account. I can get 1-80 in less than 2 weeks solo with 4 hours of play a day. Much less 1-90 in a week if I push it. The issue is not adventure leveling, the issue is the godforsaken amount of time and sheer mind numbing quest grinding you have to do to get AA. yes you can move the slider as you go, you still wont get more than 140AA before you hit cap, leaving you 110 AA to grind from quests, simply because you get so much more AA exp. Grinding mobs with the slider at 100% needs to be viable. This is exactly the problem, if I didn't worry about AA I could level 10 characters to 90 in less time than it takes to get one to 90 and 250 AAs.

05-23-2010, 06:37 AM	#17
Rami Elder Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 3	Is AB down again? I can't get back in game

05-23-2010, 07:43 AM	#18
Nightshade Server: Lucan DLere Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 314	I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance. If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind. __________________

05-23-2010, 09:48 AM	#19
Guy De Alsace Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: England Posts: 1,902	Thats the most bizarre statement - you learn nothing from your class unless you are at cap? Its just an absurd statement to make! If I took a class I'd never played at 90 I wouldnt have a clue where to start. If I'd played one all the way to 90 then I would know the class intimately. If I learn to drive then someone gives me a formula one car I'd likely go and kill myself in short order. If I'd risen through the formulas to drive that same car I'd be a professional and competitive driver.

05-23-2010, 10:08 AM	#20
erin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,834	Guy De Alsace wrote: Thats the most bizarre statement - you learn nothing from your class unless you are at cap? Its just an absurd statement to make! If I took a class I'd never played at 90 I wouldnt have a clue where to start. If I'd played one all the way to 90 then I would know the class intimately. If I learn to drive then someone gives me a formula one car I'd likely go and kill myself in short order. If I'd risen through the formulas to drive that same car I'd be a professional and competitive driver. Its really somewhere in between though. If you'd been driving a sedan for 20 years, and then someone gave you their pickup truck to drive, you would figure it out in a few minutes. If you were a good driver in your sedan, you'd be a good driver in their pickup. The point some of the elitists are making in this thread (and yes, the elitist attitude comes through in spades) is that a good player can play any class, because they've seen it played. And that the game changes so much at cap (for end game at least) that anything you learn before cap is negligible. Its somewhere in between. Most players can pick up a level 90 character and figure it out in a few days. But quite likely they won't use that character to its greatest abilities. But can they be average? Sure. If they are hardcore types that pay attention to every nuance of the game, they might even be above average on a level 90 they've never played. Most players would struggle to become average in this situation.

05-23-2010, 12:28 PM	#21
Skull_Splitter Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 39	A simple thought is that for many EQ2 players it's not their first mmorpg. Many have played other classes in other games and many play multiple classes in EQ2. It's not that difficult to learn to play a character. Heck (annoying) how the gaming populous has dumbed games down to this very aspect. LFG need "tank, healer, DPS, support..." The basics of this have gone on for decades since D&D classes. But we've all seen the arguments of what sub class is best/better.... And I laugh/cry all day long at people that just can't handle not having a "proper group."

05-23-2010, 12:48 PM	#22
Rahatmattata Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,232	Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote: I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance. If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind. It may be a costly PITA to implement, but it's not impossible. If they had enough time and money they could re-write the entire game from the ground up, starting with a single blank page and a flashing cursor. __________________ A Cure For Cancer

05-23-2010, 01:09 PM	#23
Wingrider01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5,999	Rahatmattata wrote: Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote: I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance. If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind. It may be a costly PITA to implement, but it's not impossible. If they had enough time and money they could re-write the entire game from the ground up, starting with a single blank page and a flashing cursor. No ROI, unless the cost of class change makes up for it - 100.00 - 200.00 US would problably be a starting point and a double of the subscription costs __________________ Fixing computer issues, one SOC7 at a time. Yes Jim, the user has experienced the dreaded PICNIC error

05-23-2010, 01:19 PM	#24
Amphibia Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,256	Crismorn wrote: ssumthing wrote: Good gawd no. Then you'd have way too many people out there who didn't genuinely know their class and how to play it. I think it takes leveling up proper to really know how your class is played. I can feel your pain for having to do the level up process all over again, but no... just no... You do not learn anything from going level 1-90 in eq2. This. __________________

05-23-2010, 01:43 PM	#25
Ravaan Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 554	I just shake my head when someone says people wont know how to play the class. you swear EQ2 is rocket science or something, the game really isn't that hard. like some have said you don't learn anything from 1-90 especially since most spend the majority of their time soloing through the crappy, mundane boring quests to get AA (yes AA is a major problem in this game).

05-23-2010, 02:02 PM	#26
Alenna Server: Guk Guild: Defenders of the Light Rank: Count Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,938	Rahatmattata wrote: Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote: I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance. If it is/were possible I think that it should not be a purchasable item, but rather a rarely granted petition option for people in unique situations. Otherwise the term 'Flavor of the Month' comes to mind. It may be a costly PITA to implement, but it's not impossible. If they had enough time and money they could re-write the entire game from the ground up, starting with a single blank page and a flashing cursor. but then would it be EQ2? __________________

05-23-2010, 02:15 PM	#27
Jrral Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,610	Nightshade@Lucan DLere wrote: I think I remember seeing a developer say this is impossible due to a number of class-related variables. I'm always speculative of the "it's hard-coded" phrase, but it makes sense in this instance. What I heard from the devs is that originally class changes were infeasible because the character data format was literally different for each class. The only changes possible were between the pairs that your were originally allowed to betray between, because those were the only pairs where the character data was compatible. So when changing between a berserker and a guardian it was just a matter of flipping some flags in the character data and replacing spell/CA items, but to change between a berserker and a paladin you'd literally have to create an entirely new character from scratch to get the data format right and then destroy the old character. Except that because of the way the database worked, you'd have to destroy the old character first, then create the new character using the old character's spot in the database. Of course once you've destroyed the old character you've lost everything about it (owned items, name, AA points, XP, etc.), so how are you going to recreate it? It was probably technically possible, but it was a huge amount of work and even more work to make it reliable and eliminate any possibility of losing anything if something went wrong (eg. someone trying to create a new character with that name in the window between destroying the old character and fully creating the new one). Now, all of the above is probably subject to change, and I'm pretty sure the devs are working on getting things to the point where class changes are possible. But they don't want a constant stream of "Are we there yet? Are we there yet?", so the official position'll probably remain "It can't be done." until they've got it pretty much finished and working reliably. And even then they may not admit to it. Even if they get it technically working, there's issues. For one, it'd be a bad thing from a community and balance standpoint to let people level up to cap in a solo-friendly class and then switch over to a solo-unfriendly but more desirable class with level and such intact. But if you don't allow that, if you (as with tradeskill class changes) reset level back to an early point, what do you do about things like quests? You don't want to leave them all in the journal as completed, that'd make it a pain to level up the new class. But you probably don't want to delete them across the board, some quests aren't in game anymore and people are often proud of having those quests in their journals and/or having the rewards from them. All of that's resolvable, but how exactly to resolve it needs to be figured out before class changes go in-game.

05-23-2010, 02:30 PM	#28
Alenna Server: Guk Guild: Defenders of the Light Rank: Count Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,938	Ravaan wrote: I just shake my head when someone says people wont know how to play the class. you swear EQ2 is rocket science or something, the game really isn't that hard. like some have said you don't learn anything from 1-90 especially since most spend the majority of their time soloing through the crappy, mundane boring quests to get AA (yes AA is a major problem in this game). Hmm would I know how to play a Ranger if I hadn't taken her through 1-90? yes. Could I play her so well that even with the nerfs managed topped the parse in one fight while raiding with guildies the other day(granted we are a very casual guild)? Nope that took me learning what CAs helped the best what poisens and equipment were best for my class. how much damage would pull the aggro off my tank took me playing from 1-90 so I could get a feel for the different situations I'd find myself in. All tanks are not the same. for SK, and the tanks where the players knew their class I can use harder hitting CAs for classess or tanks not as well equipped as myself yeah I can pull the aggro off end up dieing(I don't expect the healer to heal my sorry behind if I make that mistake) so I have learned to gaige when to hit and when not to and that wasn't by having someone give me a level 90 Ranger when I started. it was through playing her and putting her into different situations what she could and couldn't do and yes even the solo grinding, and mundane quests helped to teach me that. And the main thing for me is would I have had as much FUN with my Ranger if she had just been handed to me at 90? Nope that also took playing her from 1-90 and developing her to be a unique toon who has a story to tell from all the adventures she went on while leveling. __________________

05-23-2010, 02:38 PM	#29
Notsovilepriest Server: Nagafen Guild: Ill Gotten Gain Rank: Raider Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 2,184	Alenna@Guk wrote: Ravaan wrote: I just shake my head when someone says people wont know how to play the class. you swear EQ2 is rocket science or something, the game really isn't that hard. like some have said you don't learn anything from 1-90 especially since most spend the majority of their time soloing through the crappy, mundane boring quests to get AA (yes AA is a major problem in this game). Hmm would I know how to play a Ranger if I hadn't taken her through 1-90? yes. Could I play her so well that even with the nerfs managed topped the parse in one fight while raiding with guildies the other day(granted we are a very casual guild)? Nope that took me learning what CAs helped the best what poisens and equipment were best for my class. how much damage would pull the aggro off my tank took me playing from 1-90 so I could get a feel for the different situations I'd find myself in. All tanks are not the same. for SK, and the tanks where the players knew their class I can use harder hitting CAs for classess or tanks not as well equipped as myself yeah I can pull the aggro off end up dieing(I don't expect the healer to heal my sorry behind if I make that mistake) so I have learned to gaige when to hit and when not to and that wasn't by having someone give me a level 90 Ranger when I started. it was through playing her and putting her into different situations what she could and couldn't do and yes even the solo grinding, and mundane quests helped to teach me that. And the main thing for me is would I have had as much FUN with my Ranger if she had just been handed to me at 90? Nope that also took playing her from 1-90 and developing her to be a unique toon who has a story to tell from all the adventures she went on while leveling. You can get max efficency casting orders and CA rotations from forums and still top a parse if you understand mechanics(which includes how to gear your toon) __________________

05-23-2010, 02:41 PM	#30
Eridu Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Medieval Syndicate Rank: Warlord Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 229	I'd like it if they'd just allow people to change adventure class by going back to level 1 or 9 or some such. My sage who's all tradeskill, mara, odus etc factioned; done it's crafter quests; collected all the sometimes insanely priced recipe books, hates being a coercer and would much rather be a mystic. I could delete and re-roll it as a mystic but all that work, and as with AA's much of the crafting stuff isn't just leveling, it's faction and quests now, not to mention all the Live Event etc goodies. It'd be happy happy stuff if this could be done.