Could we borrow this idea?

Ocello · 12-18-2009, 06:43 PM

Ok I just downloaded a new free game called Gates of Andaron..basically a WoW wannabe but not bad.

One thing caught my eye tho: their Warrior class uses offensive and defensive stances too, but the way they make it work is by forcing you to use a 2-hander in offensive stance and a shield in defensive stance.

I realize they would prolly need to ramp up 2-hander damage and I think maybe modify a certain crusader (or just SK) AA to make this work out right, but I kind of like it.

Discuss...

Aull · 12-18-2009, 09:32 PM

It is cool for that game but "forcing" any fighter to do anything in the game right now would not be a good move. At least that is my opinion. Not that I wouldn't mind see it on test for a running out of it.

It makes sense to use a shield and sword for defensive play and possibly 2 handers and duel wield for offensive.

BChizzle · 12-19-2009, 12:13 AM

I hate 2 handers, I am sorry but I don't want to have one less slot to fill it just is that much less excitement. Thats not saying that we shouldn't have a few of 2 handers for those who like the way they look.

Ocello · 12-19-2009, 12:32 AM

BChizzle you are a brawler and hardly count as a Tank. I wish SoE did start treating you like tanks, as a former Monk myself, but they hate you.

But I will humor you, since brawlers don't use shields, you could just take away ALL of your deflection chance in offensive stance and let you dual wield. Or just make you scouts.

Although I will add that I agree, people do not like being forced into a particular playstyle. But as a fighter, tanking using a shield only seems logical. But yeah I could see there being an issue with warriors who prefer dual wielding over using a 2Hander. Fair enough, I'm just spitballing over here

sensie · 12-19-2009, 04:07 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but this was sort of tried with the AA tree, in order to get certain aa's you had to have a shield buckler or whatever equiped. The response was fairly negative adn eventually some of the restrictions were removed, I don't see SOE going backwards, but thats just me.

Ocello · 12-19-2009, 05:47 PM

sensie wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but this was sort of tried with the AA tree, in order to get certain aa's you had to have a shield buckler or whatever equiped. The response was fairly negative adn eventually some of the restrictions were removed, I don't see SOE going backwards, but thats just me.

Apples and oranges. For the AA trees, there were definite lines to take that were better than others, and it was silly to give a (albeit weak) combat art if you used a certain weapon type, if all you really wanted were the endline skills which had little to nothing to do with what weapon you used. For brawlers, you only could use the AoE AA if you used a 2H Staff (which was way underpowered) and all you really wanted was Crane Flock. It was always a bad idea and people didn't like it, but ultimately what made these change was the incoming Epic weapons, not player outcry.

So it isn't going backwards at all, and if the playerbase were more cooperative things like this could really make the game better for everyone. Would allow fighters to do more DPS when not tanking, and give them more defense while tanking while not overpowering them at doing both (which is SoE's biggest fear, apparently).

BChizzle · 12-20-2009, 01:17 PM

Ocello wrote:

BChizzle you are a brawler and hardly count as a Tank. I wish SoE did start treating you like tanks, as a former Monk myself, but they hate you.
But I will humor you, since brawlers don't use shields, you could just take away ALL of your deflection chance in offensive stance and let you dual wield. Or just make you scouts.
Although I will add that I agree, people do not like being forced into a particular playstyle. But as a fighter, tanking using a shield only seems logical. But yeah I could see there being an issue with warriors who prefer dual wielding over using a 2Hander. Fair enough, I'm just spitballing over here

LOL wut? I have tanked more in this game then 99% of you so called plate tanks please don't try and pull the brawlers aren't tanks card when you clearly don't have even the remotest grasp of what a tanks job is.

Ocello · 12-20-2009, 06:02 PM

BChizzle wrote:

Ocello wrote:
BChizzle you are a brawler and hardly count as a Tank. I wish SoE did start treating you like tanks, as a former Monk myself, but they hate you.
But I will humor you, since brawlers don't use shields, you could just take away ALL of your deflection chance in offensive stance and let you dual wield. Or just make you scouts.
Although I will add that I agree, people do not like being forced into a particular playstyle. But as a fighter, tanking using a shield only seems logical. But yeah I could see there being an issue with warriors who prefer dual wielding over using a 2Hander. Fair enough, I'm just spitballing over here
LOL wut? I have tanked more in this game then 99% of you so called plate tanks please don't try and pull the brawlers aren't tanks card when you clearly don't have even the remotest grasp of what a tanks job is.

Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class.

I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time...

BChizzle · 12-21-2009, 02:14 AM

Ocello wrote:

Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class.
I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time...

Even when you were raiding I still tanked more then you, produced more agro then you, and probably produced more ae agro then you, all the while taking less damage then you. Sure monks aren't ae tanks, so whats your point last I checked zerks weren't single target tanks either, let's so you on your zerk do what I can do on my monk on a single target, you won't be able to hang, better zerks then you couldn't.

Grumpy_Warrior_01 · 12-21-2009, 10:41 AM

BChizzle wrote:

Ocello wrote:
Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class.
I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time...
Even when you were raiding I still tanked more then you, produced more agro then you, and probably produced more ae agro then you, all the while taking less damage then you. Sure monks aren't ae tanks, so whats your point last I checked zerks weren't single target tanks either, let's so you on your zerk do what I can do on my monk on a single target, you won't be able to hang, better zerks then you couldn't.

Ego much? Apparently brawlers are working as intended.

Minoko · 12-21-2009, 02:10 PM

Bchizzle's first comment was actually on topic and applied whether he is a brawler or not. The ensuing flame war and insulting of an entire class is completely off topic. If you want people to feel free to post constructive feedback then the insults are not helping your case.

Back on topic really there should be a reason to equip a two hander now and then or some mechanic that makes doing so desirable.

sensie · 12-21-2009, 02:29 PM

Minoko@Nektulos wrote:

Bchizzle's first comment was actually on topic and applied whether he is a brawler or not. The ensuing flame war and insulting of an entire class is completely off topic. If you want people to feel free to post constructive feedback then the insults are not helping your case.
Back on topic really there should be a reason to equip a two hander now and then or some mechanic that makes doing so desirable.

I agree completely, but this is not about brawlers, this is more to do with 2handers just suck atm, up the stats and damage rating, this would allow monks to benefit from there haste. This is no class in the game that uses a 2 hander there is always some combo whether it be for stats or procs.

As far as Blanka saying brawlers are pretty much fine, I disagree with him however in talking with him he does have some very good ideas and some not so good.

Dechau · 12-22-2009, 06:09 AM

Seriously someone should try to reread their own post before posting em.. .. .. ..

Brawlers are NOT fine, and this is NOT a OMG fix us tread.. .. ..

I like the idea very much tbh, not only for tanks who uses shield, but for us Brawlers also, sure the items must have double of all stats and all that to make up for the lost stats, and the dps part would be looked very much into also, but the idea is awesome imo..

In the same deal fighters should auto deaggro in their offensive stance, we see way to many fighters tank stuff in offensive, and its just wrong, I do it myself also, but that's because I' having big problems with aggro in middle/defensive stance..

Moralpanic · 01-04-2010, 08:04 PM

I don't like it. I like their upcoming fix far better, where in offensive stance you do considerable more damage, but without the ability to hold aggro. And in defensive stance, you can hold aggro, but at a reduction of damage.

Ocello · 01-05-2010, 02:40 AM

BChizzle wrote:

Ocello wrote:
Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class.
I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time...
Even when you were raiding I still tanked more then you, produced more agro then you, and probably produced more ae agro then you, all the while taking less damage then you. Sure monks aren't ae tanks, so whats your point last I checked zerks weren't single target tanks either, let's so you on your zerk do what I can do on my monk on a single target, you won't be able to hang, better zerks then you couldn't.

Ill apologize for calling brawlers non-tanks, because they are tanks and they should tank. And there are like 3 or 4 worldwide who make the class look good.

But you clearly don't know anything about me. You tanked nothing I did not. Maybe you produced more aggro, who knows who cares--i main tanked everything and only lost aggro to ppl with signet of betrayal equipped. And there is no way in bloody murderous Hell you took less damage. Get a clue. Maybe if I was dual wielding, and -not- using any defensive buffs. And as far as single target tanking, that sentence is ridiculous; ae tanks can tank everything easily, single target tanks can tank most things, albeit with much difficulty. Holding single target aggro is easy for a zerker, and if it isn't then we only have like 4 snap aggro tools. You are living in denial comparing the 2 classes.

Tbh being a monk made me a better Zerker because of how hard I had to work at tanking things. I learned how to effectively tab through my targets to maintain aggro and also to maximize DPS. I would be frightened to see what you could do with a zerker or a Crusader. But like I said, if you are happy doing it, more power to you.

And did the guy above me break NDA? Is that really happening again?

Maamadex · 01-05-2010, 01:23 PM

sensie wrote:

This is no class in the game that uses a 2 hander there is always some combo whether it be for stats or procs.

Well, melee dps healers use them. Thats about it but there isn't a better combo for say a dps mystic than a big 2hander heh. For every other class they suck tho.

And yeah, what upcoming fix? SMILEY

Grumpy_Warrior_01 · 01-05-2010, 03:47 PM

Ocello wrote:

And did the guy above me break NDA? Is that really happening again?

What he's referring to is one of the components of the failed fighter revamp, which may or may not be in the current expansion beta. Frankly I didn't have a problem with allowing fighters to do additional damage with 2-handers while not building hate. This would actually give fighters who are not tanking a reason to be in groups/raids with other fighters, which is a common complaint on these boards. Imagine how nice it would be to have a SK in a raid where he can just shut down his hate and do all the other things he's good at while using a 2-hander .

Not all fighters have to tank 100% of the time; not all tanks are fighters 100% of the time either. It all depends on what you're doing.

PS: I know, I'm a filthy derailer. Fixed it :)

12-19-2009, 04:07 PM	#5
sensie Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 106	Correct me if I am wrong, but this was sort of tried with the AA tree, in order to get certain aa's you had to have a shield buckler or whatever equiped. The response was fairly negative adn eventually some of the restrictions were removed, I don't see SOE going backwards, but thats just me. __________________

12-19-2009, 05:47 PM	#6
Ocello Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: East TN Posts: 464	sensie wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but this was sort of tried with the AA tree, in order to get certain aa's you had to have a shield buckler or whatever equiped. The response was fairly negative adn eventually some of the restrictions were removed, I don't see SOE going backwards, but thats just me. Apples and oranges. For the AA trees, there were definite lines to take that were better than others, and it was silly to give a (albeit weak) combat art if you used a certain weapon type, if all you really wanted were the endline skills which had little to nothing to do with what weapon you used. For brawlers, you only could use the AoE AA if you used a 2H Staff (which was way underpowered) and all you really wanted was Crane Flock. It was always a bad idea and people didn't like it, but ultimately what made these change was the incoming Epic weapons, not player outcry. So it isn't going backwards at all, and if the playerbase were more cooperative things like this could really make the game better for everyone. Would allow fighters to do more DPS when not tanking, and give them more defense while tanking while not overpowering them at doing both (which is SoE's biggest fear, apparently).

12-20-2009, 01:17 PM	#7
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	Ocello wrote: BChizzle you are a brawler and hardly count as a Tank. I wish SoE did start treating you like tanks, as a former Monk myself, but they hate you. But I will humor you, since brawlers don't use shields, you could just take away ALL of your deflection chance in offensive stance and let you dual wield. Or just make you scouts. Although I will add that I agree, people do not like being forced into a particular playstyle. But as a fighter, tanking using a shield only seems logical. But yeah I could see there being an issue with warriors who prefer dual wielding over using a 2Hander. Fair enough, I'm just spitballing over here LOL wut? I have tanked more in this game then 99% of you so called plate tanks please don't try and pull the brawlers aren't tanks card when you clearly don't have even the remotest grasp of what a tanks job is.

12-20-2009, 06:02 PM	#8
Ocello Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: East TN Posts: 464	BChizzle wrote: Ocello wrote: BChizzle you are a brawler and hardly count as a Tank. I wish SoE did start treating you like tanks, as a former Monk myself, but they hate you. But I will humor you, since brawlers don't use shields, you could just take away ALL of your deflection chance in offensive stance and let you dual wield. Or just make you scouts. Although I will add that I agree, people do not like being forced into a particular playstyle. But as a fighter, tanking using a shield only seems logical. But yeah I could see there being an issue with warriors who prefer dual wielding over using a 2Hander. Fair enough, I'm just spitballing over here LOL wut? I have tanked more in this game then 99% of you so called plate tanks please don't try and pull the brawlers aren't tanks card when you clearly don't have even the remotest grasp of what a tanks job is. Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class. I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time...

12-21-2009, 02:14 AM	#9
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	Ocello wrote: Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class. I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time... Even when you were raiding I still tanked more then you, produced more agro then you, and probably produced more ae agro then you, all the while taking less damage then you. Sure monks aren't ae tanks, so whats your point last I checked zerks weren't single target tanks either, let's so you on your zerk do what I can do on my monk on a single target, you won't be able to hang, better zerks then you couldn't.

12-18-2009, 06:43 PM	#1
Ocello Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: East TN Posts: 464	Ok I just downloaded a new free game called Gates of Andaron..basically a WoW wannabe but not bad. One thing caught my eye tho: their Warrior class uses offensive and defensive stances too, but the way they make it work is by forcing you to use a 2-hander in offensive stance and a shield in defensive stance. I realize they would prolly need to ramp up 2-hander damage and I think maybe modify a certain crusader (or just SK) AA to make this work out right, but I kind of like it. Discuss...

12-18-2009, 09:32 PM	#2
Aull Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,429	It is cool for that game but "forcing" any fighter to do anything in the game right now would not be a good move. At least that is my opinion. Not that I wouldn't mind see it on test for a running out of it. It makes sense to use a shield and sword for defensive play and possibly 2 handers and duel wield for offensive.

12-19-2009, 12:13 AM	#3
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	I hate 2 handers, I am sorry but I don't want to have one less slot to fill it just is that much less excitement. Thats not saying that we shouldn't have a few of 2 handers for those who like the way they look.

12-19-2009, 12:32 AM	#4
Ocello Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: East TN Posts: 464	BChizzle you are a brawler and hardly count as a Tank. I wish SoE did start treating you like tanks, as a former Monk myself, but they hate you. But I will humor you, since brawlers don't use shields, you could just take away ALL of your deflection chance in offensive stance and let you dual wield. Or just make you scouts. Although I will add that I agree, people do not like being forced into a particular playstyle. But as a fighter, tanking using a shield only seems logical. But yeah I could see there being an issue with warriors who prefer dual wielding over using a 2Hander. Fair enough, I'm just spitballing over here

12-21-2009, 10:41 AM	#10
Grumpy_Warrior_01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 528	BChizzle wrote: Ocello wrote: Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class. I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time... Even when you were raiding I still tanked more then you, produced more agro then you, and probably produced more ae agro then you, all the while taking less damage then you. Sure monks aren't ae tanks, so whats your point last I checked zerks weren't single target tanks either, let's so you on your zerk do what I can do on my monk on a single target, you won't be able to hang, better zerks then you couldn't. Ego much? Apparently brawlers are working as intended.

12-21-2009, 02:10 PM	#11
Minoko Server: Nektulos Guild: Die Hards Rank: Senior Officer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 124	Bchizzle's first comment was actually on topic and applied whether he is a brawler or not. The ensuing flame war and insulting of an entire class is completely off topic. If you want people to feel free to post constructive feedback then the insults are not helping your case. Back on topic really there should be a reason to equip a two hander now and then or some mechanic that makes doing so desirable. __________________ Forum lurker by day, EQII addict by night.

12-21-2009, 02:29 PM	#12
sensie Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 106	Minoko@Nektulos wrote: Bchizzle's first comment was actually on topic and applied whether he is a brawler or not. The ensuing flame war and insulting of an entire class is completely off topic. If you want people to feel free to post constructive feedback then the insults are not helping your case. Back on topic really there should be a reason to equip a two hander now and then or some mechanic that makes doing so desirable. I agree completely, but this is not about brawlers, this is more to do with 2handers just suck atm, up the stats and damage rating, this would allow monks to benefit from there haste. This is no class in the game that uses a 2 hander there is always some combo whether it be for stats or procs. As far as Blanka saying brawlers are pretty much fine, I disagree with him however in talking with him he does have some very good ideas and some not so good. __________________

12-22-2009, 06:09 AM	#13
Dechau Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 312	Seriously someone should try to reread their own post before posting em.. .. .. .. Brawlers are NOT fine, and this is NOT a OMG fix us tread.. .. .. I like the idea very much tbh, not only for tanks who uses shield, but for us Brawlers also, sure the items must have double of all stats and all that to make up for the lost stats, and the dps part would be looked very much into also, but the idea is awesome imo.. In the same deal fighters should auto deaggro in their offensive stance, we see way to many fighters tank stuff in offensive, and its just wrong, I do it myself also, but that's because I' having big problems with aggro in middle/defensive stance.. __________________ Main: Scipius Africanus 90 Fury - The Lost Order Alts: Shauku Endbringer 90 Zerker - The Lost Order Leshrac Sigil 90 Defiler - The Lost Order Nicol Bolas 90 Bruiser - The Lost Order Gosta Dirk 82 Dirge - Mighty Danes Splitpaw server for the win..

01-04-2010, 08:04 PM	#14
Moralpanic Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 131	I don't like it. I like their upcoming fix far better, where in offensive stance you do considerable more damage, but without the ability to hold aggro. And in defensive stance, you can hold aggro, but at a reduction of damage.

01-05-2010, 02:40 AM	#15
Ocello Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: East TN Posts: 464	BChizzle wrote: Ocello wrote: Spare me dude. Listen you can pull that card on most people here and I give you credit, but I have tanked everything up to my recent retirement from raiding so don't bring it here. Please don't act like your class is as good at staying alive and keeping AoE aggro as the plates, because it would make you look extremely foolish and would only be a detriment to your own class. I care about monks still, and probably post more there than in the Zerker forums. I would love SoE to fix them. But this topic has nothing to do with that, so save your "OMG I'm leet, you aren't doing it right" speech for another time... Even when you were raiding I still tanked more then you, produced more agro then you, and probably produced more ae agro then you, all the while taking less damage then you. Sure monks aren't ae tanks, so whats your point last I checked zerks weren't single target tanks either, let's so you on your zerk do what I can do on my monk on a single target, you won't be able to hang, better zerks then you couldn't. Ill apologize for calling brawlers non-tanks, because they are tanks and they should tank. And there are like 3 or 4 worldwide who make the class look good. But you clearly don't know anything about me. You tanked nothing I did not. Maybe you produced more aggro, who knows who cares--i main tanked everything and only lost aggro to ppl with signet of betrayal equipped. And there is no way in bloody murderous Hell you took less damage. Get a clue. Maybe if I was dual wielding, and -not- using any defensive buffs. And as far as single target tanking, that sentence is ridiculous; ae tanks can tank everything easily, single target tanks can tank most things, albeit with much difficulty. Holding single target aggro is easy for a zerker, and if it isn't then we only have like 4 snap aggro tools. You are living in denial comparing the 2 classes. Tbh being a monk made me a better Zerker because of how hard I had to work at tanking things. I learned how to effectively tab through my targets to maintain aggro and also to maximize DPS. I would be frightened to see what you could do with a zerker or a Crusader. But like I said, if you are happy doing it, more power to you. And did the guy above me break NDA? Is that really happening again?

01-05-2010, 01:23 PM	#16
Maamadex Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 378	sensie wrote: This is no class in the game that uses a 2 hander there is always some combo whether it be for stats or procs. Well, melee dps healers use them. Thats about it but there isn't a better combo for say a dps mystic than a big 2hander heh. For every other class they suck tho. And yeah, what upcoming fix? __________________

01-05-2010, 03:47 PM	#17
Grumpy_Warrior_01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 528	Ocello wrote: And did the guy above me break NDA? Is that really happening again? What he's referring to is one of the components of the failed fighter revamp, which may or may not be in the current expansion beta. Frankly I didn't have a problem with allowing fighters to do additional damage with 2-handers while not building hate. This would actually give fighters who are not tanking a reason to be in groups/raids with other fighters, which is a common complaint on these boards. Imagine how nice it would be to have a SK in a raid where he can just shut down his hate and do all the other things he's good at while using a 2-hander . Not all fighters have to tank 100% of the time; not all tanks are fighters 100% of the time either. It all depends on what you're doing. PS: I know, I'm a filthy derailer. Fixed it :)