Tradeskill reaction warning events

Domino · 07-09-2009, 01:44 PM

If you've crafted any of the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes since last game update (52), you may have noticed that they have reaction warning events to counter now, with a little seasonal flavour. Missing something always results in a penalty, and countering something always results in a boost to progress.

I'm interested in hearing any feedback on whether you find the penalties and rewards for these events to be appropriately sized (-9% health or power is the worst penalty that missing any one reaction should give you), and whether you feel that a similar change to the primary tradeskill classes' warning events would be a good thing. It WOULD mean that if you wander away totally AFK and miss a series of warnings, you could die. On the other hand, you'd have to miss several in order to die, and it would also mean that every successful counter would give a significant and meaningful boost to progress or durability.

Please try out the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes before commenting, to see what the changes really feel like. SMILEY

Barx · 07-09-2009, 01:52 PM

Having made those recipes, I say that I like them. They are strong enough to make you want to watch them, but not so strong (like Far Seas recipes) that if you lag or otherwise miss one you take a huge hit.

In fact, I'd actually say that making the impact on health even greater (-25% at the high end) would be ok, I loved fighting with the forge back in the day . Power loss should be kept in check though, since that has much more of a direct bearing on your ability to react, especially at lower levels. The same story sort of applies for progress / durability... I'd rather loose a lot of progress because of an oops and a normal bit of durability than vice versa.

Speaking of lower levels... is it possible to tailor the responses based on crafter level (in the same 20-level sets the ability upgrades by)? One thing that might be nice would be to make the lower level (1-19) events have a standard fail impact but a boosted success impact (since those levels are arguably the hardest to craft in, and it gives new players an incentive to pay attention while they craft).

Deson · 07-09-2009, 02:05 PM

I can't comment as I don't have the resources to make the comments anymore but if it's anything like the Far Seas events, I can't see complaining. Is the the first result of the earlier proposal for more meaningful reactions? If so, could you have the resources for Nights of the Dead and Erollisi recipes put live on test so people like me can look at how they are now and comment?

Dragowulf · 07-09-2009, 03:00 PM

I do like it. I agree with Lord_Ebon for the most part.

I believe that you should be able to make a Pristine quality items if you just counter reactions, as it is now you have to mash durability as well as counter reactions to make anything Pristine.

If you do something like this with the Primary Tradeskills make reactions REALLY matter. If you get a successful counter allow a durability and progress increase. If you miss a counter loose durability but keep power in check like Lord_Ebon stated. The worse the reaction the worse the penalty (Major Distraction vs. Minor Distraction) and vice versa with successful counters.

Bloodfa · 07-09-2009, 03:08 PM

I would just like to chime in that I'd be very in favor of increasing the damage for a screw-up. Nothing made me laugh so hard as watching players drop when they made a chain of mistakes (myself included). Death by Forge, hands down the best way to go, especially with other nearby. SMILEY

A bonus would be that the automated crafting bots would be, um, dead. Win + win = double win.

Dragowulf · 07-09-2009, 03:39 PM

Also increase the chance of getting an "Insight" buff. Those are rare to see.

GreenArmadillo · 07-09-2009, 03:43 PM

I can't try the changes since I don't have the recipes, but I'd greatly support anything that would make crafting more attention-worthy. Currently, you can ignore all the reactions and just spam durability increases - the only thing this costs you is a bit of time and power (which might make you wait before you try your next recipe). This sometimes leaves me feeling like it's a waste of my time and attention to even watch the combine in the first place. Big penalties to balance out the chance of finishing substantially quicker would be a huge improvement.

Two additional suggestions:

- Could we get a toggle to turn the action queue off just while crafting? I like to be able to queue actions in general, but it's always sad to fail a reaction event because I accidentally doubleclicked the last one.

- Perhaps in T9 we could get a super-challenge rush order writ that REQUIRES players to finish ahead of schedule through reactions? For example, perhaps you could go with the current style of writ at 80, 83, and 87, and have the challenge writ require level 90 for extra status (and a large chance of wasting materials and cash on a fail)?

Cele · 07-09-2009, 03:48 PM

I KNEW that wasnt my imagination! I made an entire "sinister" set of appearance gear for someone a few days ago and noticed words like "haunted" and "shiver" in the reactions. I hadn't recalled seeing them before, so assumed I had simply forgotten.

I have to say progress seemed to be faster, however, I do not recall any issues if I missed a reaction due to gabbing in chat. perhaps they are more noticeable at an appropriate level ? I was crafting them on my 80 provi.

Pitt Hammerfi · 07-09-2009, 04:12 PM

I would like to see a hit of about +/-18% health/power to make it interesting, Adding a larger reward/penalty would speed up the crafting for people paying attention, and possibly kill people who are not

Yes i think you should bring this to the general crafting of items, it's best to make everything standard anyway (easier for expansions)

Does successfully countering an event ever give a rare anymore? I'd heard about it ages ago, but in the 4 years i've had an armorer i've never seen one. Maybe think of upping the chances of rares/buffs? or even making new events to counter.

And yes minor and major event counters should have different values of health/power/durability/progress gain/loss (if they dont already)

More emphasis on the events please to make them more meaningfull.

Mynervia · 07-09-2009, 05:19 PM

I'd done a couple runs of these recipes recently, and was wondering when the newly-flavored events had gone in. This explains a few things - I'd noticed the recipes seemed much easier to complete on lower-level crafters while paying attention (which the progress bonus would largely explain), but some surprisingly difficulties when I was half-AFK doing them (hit 1+6 in rhythm while reading something, occasionally look over to see if there's an event to counter or if my round timing has drifted).

Overall, they felt less frustratingly random this way, and more rewarding for actually paying attention to what you're doing. I really liked this for the holiday crafting, as that often gets done on crafters with poor relevant skills (either cross-skill crafting on a high level crafter, or classless abilities on a low level crafter) and these changes make the recipes much more enjoyable.

For the main crafting, I'm more dubious - that's a lot more 'necessary' to progression and you do a *lot* more of it, so the ability to turn out bulk for grind reasons while only half paying attention is rather important in my opinion. While I wind up mass-producing far more holiday goods than regular fare, I'm more concerned about preserving half-attentive ROs than my profit-making half-attention holiday goods.

I hadn't noticed the enlarged health hits, but -9% seems a reasonable number - that'd require 12 fails to kill you, regen non-withstanding, and in crafting you get out-of-combat regens iirc so it'd take a good bit of failure to wind up dead while still feeling threatening. That should preserve aformentioned semi-afk crafting (since that's a long time to not look over and notice you're hurting, plus if you have sound on the failed complicaiton/taken damage sound effects let you know you might want to look over) and only provide a real obstacle to zero-attention crafting (which, if anything, is an upside to the plan).

Barx · 07-09-2009, 05:28 PM

Hmm here's another idea I've come up with to sort of penalize afk crafting while benefiting crafters paying attention...

It'd be a reaction that gets progressively worse. Lets say you get the reaction come up called Minor Boilover. If you counter it (showing that you're paying some attention) you get a decent durability boost and say 10% power. If you don't counter it, you get -5/-15 added onto that pulse and you automatically get Moderate Boilover next pulse. If you counter that, you get +5/+15 to make up for the missed last round and 5% power. If you don't counter that, you get -15/-45, -10% health, and -5% power AND you automatically get Serious Boilover on the next pulse. If you counter it now, you only get +15/+45, that's it. Now if you fail to counter it, meaning you've missed 3 in a row... you get -50/-100, -50% health, -20% power -- ie, you take a big hit.

denmom · 07-09-2009, 05:57 PM

I don't like the idea.

Mainly because I have such a wonkiness with crafting. I've discussed this with you before, Domino, when we've met at the Block Partys SOE throws during Comic Con weekend.

Even when I counter, I still can take a hit. It's odd, I know. I am countering, I'm not missing. I've had Jrral, a friend and guildee, over to watch and he's seen this happen. He's seen where I counter each and every time only to lose durability or progress or both. He's even crafted with my toon and proven it's not me missing counters. This happens at any station be it in my guild hall, out at Ironforge inside the building or the instance, the other outside stations, or inside the instances in any of the villages.

It's not a case of not knowing how to craft. I've followed the "how to", I've followed suggestions from Niami, Calthine, Rikjacki, and others, and I still have the problem. I think it's the account. I've a second account, have made toons to L9 Artisan without the same problem. But I really don't want to make a full set of crafters on that account. It's a lot of time, a lot of resources, and a lot of plat (all those books, specialty recipes, etc).

I've had this problem since launch. This account is from way back then. I know some check toon ages off EQ2 Players and will see that Pheep is only from Feb 2006. That is when I transferred to Unrest from Antonia Bayle server. All of my crafters are from around launch except for my Armourer (new Swashie toon), and I even have that oddity with her.

From what I'm reading, I'm the only one. I understand why folks want risk to their crafting, that it's boring to them to the point they can practically afk craft/pay little attention. I have to watch counters carefully every time I craft, so I've a vastly different experience than they.

Guess I'm the odd crafter out, but you wanted to know. /shrug

Qandor · 07-09-2009, 06:23 PM

Like the idea a lot. Reward those that pay attention and penalize those that do not. We need some "umph" back in crafting. Right now it is just stupidly mindless. Currentlty the only difference between EQ2's crafting and a one click combine system is that EQ2's "one click" combine takes about 30 seconds longer. Barring a coronary while crafting it is impossible to fail on a combine as it stands now.

denmom · 07-09-2009, 06:31 PM

Qandor wrote:

Like the idea a lot. Reward those that pay attention and penalize those that do not. We need some "umph" back in crafting. Right now it is just stupidly mindless. Currentlty the only difference between EQ2's crafting and a one click combine system is that EQ2's "one click" combine takes about 30 seconds longer. Barring a coronary while crafting it is impossible to fail on a combine as it stands now.

Heh, I failed a combine of arrows last night. Countered, paying attention, but then again I've problems that can't be explained. /points to post explaining the oddity

Lodrelhai · 07-09-2009, 06:38 PM

Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now?

Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam.

This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died.

Grumble69 · 07-09-2009, 07:06 PM

Please don't expand that to regular items. If there is a show on TV, I will often do provisioning since it requires 20 stinking combines for a stack of food & drink (per character). I'm only half-way paying attention when I do that chore.

I don't view TS as a particularly exciting activity. The last thing I want to do is be glued to the monitor to determine whether I should be pushing 1-6. At best, it's an extremely simplified version of DDR without the music.

Domino · 07-09-2009, 07:13 PM

Lodrelhai wrote:

Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now?
Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam.
This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died.

It's possible now, but varies a lot depending on what profession you are, so classes die more easily than others.

I don't want to make it TOO easy to die crafting, because I know a lot of people who craft a LOT don't tend to pay a huge amount of attention. If you're cranking out hundreds of items, you may well be watching a DVD or chatting in a channel while you craft, and forcing you to pay exact attention every minute or you die is not going to add fun, in fact, it's going to make it less fun.

However, a more consistent penalty for failure and reward for success regardless of your class, plus an increase in the frequency of the rare events (including getting that rare) should give crafters more control over the process as well and make it feel more rewarding.

Domino · 07-09-2009, 07:38 PM

Deson wrote:

I can't comment as I don't have the resources to make the comments anymore but if it's anything like the Far Seas events, I can't see complaining. Is the the first result of the earlier proposal for more meaningful reactions? If so, could you have the resources for Nights of the Dead and Erollisi recipes put live on test so people like me can look at how they are now and comment?

I've put a bunch of the Erollisi notes and Nights of the Dead candies on the broker on both Test and Test Copy for folks to try out. The recipes are no trade so I couldn't add those, but anybody whose live character has the recipes can copy over to Test Copy if they'd like to check it out and can't find components on live servers. SMILEY

Deson · 07-09-2009, 07:42 PM

DominoDev wrote:

Deson wrote:
I can't comment as I don't have the resources to make the comments anymore but if it's anything like the Far Seas events, I can't see complaining. Is the the first result of the earlier proposal for more meaningful reactions? If so, could you have the resources for Nights of the Dead and Erollisi recipes put live on test so people like me can look at how they are now and comment?
I've put a bunch of the Erollisi notes and Nights of the Dead candies on the broker on both Test and Test Copy for folks to try out. The recipes are no trade so I couldn't add those, but anybody whose live character has the recipes can copy over to Test Copy if they'd like to check it out and can't find components on live servers.

Thanks! Pretty sure I have at least one set of recipes on a character to try it, just have to find who has it.

Gungo · 07-09-2009, 07:45 PM

Since you are planning on changing reactive arts you should make it so people can't bot craft.

If you are going to make it so the reactive arts can kill you. You should remove the LOG file sent by reactives. And leave only the visual que for people to counter. Its tremendously more difficult for bot programs to read in game visual ques then it is to read log files.

Dragowulf · 07-09-2009, 07:50 PM

DominoDev wrote:

Lodrelhai wrote:
Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now?
Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam.
This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died.
It's possible now, but varies a lot depending on what profession you are, so classes die more easily than others.
I don't want to make it TOO easy to die crafting, because I know a lot of people who craft a LOT don't tend to pay a huge amount of attention. If you're cranking out hundreds of items, you may well be watching a DVD or chatting in a channel while you craft, and forcing you to pay exact attention every minute or you die is not going to add fun, in fact, it's going to make it less fun.
However, a more consistent penalty for failure and reward for success regardless of your class, plus an increase in the frequency of the rare events (including getting that rare) should give crafters more control over the process as well and make it feel more rewarding.

Well if you're not going to change the penalty at least give those who actually pay attention and counter 100% of the time a better success reward because currently it almost doesn't even matter.

Gladiolus · 07-09-2009, 08:15 PM

I can't get into Test to look at this (because of yet another 40-minute download for the cards - when are they going to give us an option not to download LoN stuff?) but at the moment the keys we press don't make much difference, it all depends on the character. With my tailor, I can start the item and go pour a cup of tea and come back in time to start the next one, no problem. With my woodworker, I have only four times in 53 levels been able to finish a rush order, because I pay full attention, not even talking while I'm doing it, pressing all the right buttons, pressing more buttons to extend durability when there's nothing to counter, and still it fails more often than not.

Having something that might speed up my provisioner sounds good. I spend about an hour a day making food for the guild, and only glance at the screen when I need to start the next item, the rest of the time I'm sitting reading, so that I don't fall asleep.

Boyar · 07-09-2009, 08:57 PM

Pheep, have you had someone try your character that was neither on your computer nor using your internet connection? I've had occasional bouts of bad upstream latency that have caused my command actions to be temporally offset from what I'm seeing on the screen. Turning off spell queueing helped me a little, but crafting was really hard whenever it happened. (Thankfully it hasn't happened since we switched broadband providers) On the topic at hand, my biggest gripe about crafting as is are the streaky streaks of random fails with no events available to counter. I love the idea of counters being worth more (positive or negative). Personally, I wish counters happened more often, but then I tend to be one of those total focus freaks, singleminded in my crafting. Guildies can just darn well wait for the writ to be done before getting an answer.

madha · 07-09-2009, 09:05 PM

make the reaction stuff you want to do on masterd crafted items and shard stuff and the combines for the ts quest zones, as those are the only combines i ever even bother to use the reaction arts.

Cele · 07-09-2009, 09:24 PM

Anything that adds some variety and a bit more challenge to our crafting is a good thing, IMO.

Obann · 07-09-2009, 09:46 PM

Two thumbs up. Tried this out the other day on some Erollisi Day items. Made it feel less of a chore to get "pristine".

The benefit for a succesful counter is a great idea. I've gotten to the point that everytime I succesfully counter a reaction I think "Really, what's the point? I don't get any real benefit for it."

denmom · 07-09-2009, 09:58 PM

Thud@Befallen wrote:

Pheep, have you had someone try your character that was neither on your computer nor using your internet connection? I've had occasional bouts of bad upstream latency that have caused my command actions to be temporally offset from what I'm seeing on the screen. Turning off spell queueing helped me a little, but crafting was really hard whenever it happened. (Thankfully it hasn't happened since we switched broadband providers) On the topic at hand, my biggest gripe about crafting as is are the streaky streaks of random fails with no events available to counter. I love the idea of counters being worth more (positive or negative). Personally, I wish counters happened more often, but then I tend to be one of those total focus freaks, singleminded in my crafting. Guildies can just darn well wait for the writ to be done before getting an answer.

Can't be the connection. My husband has crafted without any problem on his computer, and he's on the same connection as I am. I've crafted with my toons on my husbands' computer, same problems show up.

When Jrral was over, he tested his toons' crafting on my computer numerous times and had no problem with crafting. It's always the toons on my first account that have this problem. The toons that I've crafted with on my second account aren't affected at all.

Our home connection has what the Cox techs call "direct feed". We're literally ten feet from the cable junction box in our apartment complex and we have a line directly into the box.

I defrag every day and do what I should to keep the computer happy.

It comes down to this account just being odd as hell. >_<

Jrral · 07-10-2009, 12:01 AM

Thud@Befallen wrote:

Pheep, have you had someone try your character that was neither on your computer nor using your internet connection?

I've tried it. I've logged on my 'toons on her computer and crafted, and no problems. But if I take over one of her toons and craft, well, it's not a nightmare but it's definitely harder going than on mine. More events to counter, more strings of back-to-back events, more failures, I have to lean on the +durability arts heavily where on my own characters I can lean on +progress with only an occasional durability boost. And then I'll have her camp over to a toon on her other account and I'll take it, and crafting's more like my own characters.

I've seen similar things harvesting. On the same number of nodes, Kudail will be picking up 2-3 rares for every one of mine. Yes, I know, small sample size and all, but if it's just a short-term bad streak then why does it keep up month after month after month for years? Short-term streaks in the RNG are just that: short-term.

Partly it's because I've gotten bitten by RNGs in the past. Target range 0-9. 1000 samples. Average: 4.5, dead on. Distribution: perfect, every value occurred exactly 100 times. Yes, that RNG's completely broken.

Maroger · 07-10-2009, 12:18 AM

DominoDev wrote:

Lodrelhai wrote:
Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now?
Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam.
This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died.
It's possible now, but varies a lot depending on what profession you are, so classes die more easily than others.
I don't want to make it TOO easy to die crafting, because I know a lot of people who craft a LOT don't tend to pay a huge amount of attention. If you're cranking out hundreds of items, you may well be watching a DVD or chatting in a channel while you craft, and forcing you to pay exact attention every minute or you die is not going to add fun, in fact, it's going to make it less fun.
However, a more consistent penalty for failure and reward for success regardless of your class, plus an increase in the frequency of the rare events (including getting that rare) should give crafters more control over the process as well and make it feel more rewarding.

I don't like the idea at all. If I craft in the morning I have no problem with the events -- but I noticed that if I craft in the evening I miss a lot of events due to lag. I may hit 3 keys -- but due to lag another event will kick in and I will miss it.

The lag factor causes you to miss more events when the server is busy -- generally I think this is a terrible idea as it means you can have lag kill you at the crafting table.

Why bring back this -- it was great when they got rid of it and there is no need to bring back a bad idea. It won't make crafting more fun -- just more tedious.

SilkenKidden · 07-10-2009, 02:32 AM

DominoDev wrote:

If you've crafted any of the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes since last game update (52), you may have noticed that they have reaction warning events to counter now, with a little seasonal flavour. Missing something always results in a penalty, and countering something always results in a boost to progress.
I'm interested in hearing any feedback on whether you find the penalties and rewards for these events to be appropriately sized (-9% health or power is the worst penalty that missing any one reaction should give you), and whether you feel that a similar change to the primary tradeskill classes' warning events would be a good thing. It WOULD mean that if you wander away totally AFK and miss a series of warnings, you could die. On the other hand, you'd have to miss several in order to die, and it would also mean that every successful counter would give a significant and meaningful boost to progress or durability.
Please try out the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes before commenting, to see what the changes really feel like.

LOL. I hope we can only die on Halloween. That is so appropriate. However I have no more Halloween candy and can't even buy it on the broker. Can you sneak on to Butcherblock and put some Nights of the Dead fodder on the broker?

But to die for love? Oh, no. I hope you at least put flowers on the body. I did try these with my master sage. I love the new event names. I had a problem with one recipe from this book. It is a tinker recipe and my transmuter can not yet tinker, so I had no reaction arts. That worked well in forcing me to just let the combine run but I just ran out of durability and lost the combine. I didn't fail enough of the events to get killed. When I did other combines (non-tinker) I had no problem with them at all. I didn't have to mash durability to keep up.

07-09-2009, 02:05 PM	#3
Deson Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	I can't comment as I don't have the resources to make the comments anymore but if it's anything like the Far Seas events, I can't see complaining. Is the the first result of the earlier proposal for more meaningful reactions? If so, could you have the resources for Nights of the Dead and Erollisi recipes put live on test so people like me can look at how they are now and comment? __________________ I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom. I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break...

07-09-2009, 03:00 PM	#4
Dragowulf Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California, United States of America Posts: 763	I do like it. I agree with Lord_Ebon for the most part. I believe that you should be able to make a Pristine quality items if you just counter reactions, as it is now you have to mash durability as well as counter reactions to make anything Pristine. If you do something like this with the Primary Tradeskills make reactions REALLY matter. If you get a successful counter allow a durability and progress increase. If you miss a counter loose durability but keep power in check like Lord_Ebon stated. The worse the reaction the worse the penalty (Major Distraction vs. Minor Distraction) and vice versa with successful counters. __________________

07-09-2009, 03:08 PM	#5
Bloodfa Server: Nagafen General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,873	I would just like to chime in that I'd be very in favor of increasing the damage for a screw-up. Nothing made me laugh so hard as watching players drop when they made a chain of mistakes (myself included). Death by Forge, hands down the best way to go, especially with other nearby. A bonus would be that the automated crafting bots would be, um, dead. Win + win = double win. __________________

07-09-2009, 03:39 PM	#6
Dragowulf Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California, United States of America Posts: 763	Also increase the chance of getting an "Insight" buff. Those are rare to see. __________________

07-09-2009, 03:43 PM	#7
GreenArmadillo Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 63	I can't try the changes since I don't have the recipes, but I'd greatly support anything that would make crafting more attention-worthy. Currently, you can ignore all the reactions and just spam durability increases - the only thing this costs you is a bit of time and power (which might make you wait before you try your next recipe). This sometimes leaves me feeling like it's a waste of my time and attention to even watch the combine in the first place. Big penalties to balance out the chance of finishing substantially quicker would be a huge improvement. Two additional suggestions: - Could we get a toggle to turn the action queue off just while crafting? I like to be able to queue actions in general, but it's always sad to fail a reaction event because I accidentally doubleclicked the last one. - Perhaps in T9 we could get a super-challenge rush order writ that REQUIRES players to finish ahead of schedule through reactions? For example, perhaps you could go with the current style of writ at 80, 83, and 87, and have the challenge writ require level 90 for extra status (and a large chance of wasting materials and cash on a fail)? __________________ http://playervsdeveloper.blogspot.com

07-09-2009, 01:44 PM	#1
Domino Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,046	If you've crafted any of the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes since last game update (52), you may have noticed that they have reaction warning events to counter now, with a little seasonal flavour. Missing something always results in a penalty, and countering something always results in a boost to progress. I'm interested in hearing any feedback on whether you find the penalties and rewards for these events to be appropriately sized (-9% health or power is the worst penalty that missing any one reaction should give you), and whether you feel that a similar change to the primary tradeskill classes' warning events would be a good thing. It WOULD mean that if you wander away totally AFK and miss a series of warnings, you could die. On the other hand, you'd have to miss several in order to die, and it would also mean that every successful counter would give a significant and meaningful boost to progress or durability. Please try out the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes before commenting, to see what the changes really feel like.

07-09-2009, 01:52 PM	#2
Barx Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Mayhem Rank: Officers Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Manors of Mithaniel, New Halas Posts: 3,480	Having made those recipes, I say that I like them. They are strong enough to make you want to watch them, but not so strong (like Far Seas recipes) that if you lag or otherwise miss one you take a huge hit. In fact, I'd actually say that making the impact on health even greater (-25% at the high end) would be ok, I loved fighting with the forge back in the day . Power loss should be kept in check though, since that has much more of a direct bearing on your ability to react, especially at lower levels. The same story sort of applies for progress / durability... I'd rather loose a lot of progress because of an oops and a normal bit of durability than vice versa. Speaking of lower levels... is it possible to tailor the responses based on crafter level (in the same 20-level sets the ability upgrades by)? One thing that might be nice would be to make the lower level (1-19) events have a standard fail impact but a boosted success impact (since those levels are arguably the hardest to craft in, and it gives new players an incentive to pay attention while they craft).

07-09-2009, 03:48 PM	#8
Cele General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	I KNEW that wasnt my imagination! I made an entire "sinister" set of appearance gear for someone a few days ago and noticed words like "haunted" and "shiver" in the reactions. I hadn't recalled seeing them before, so assumed I had simply forgotten. I have to say progress seemed to be faster, however, I do not recall any issues if I missed a reaction due to gabbing in chat. perhaps they are more noticeable at an appropriate level ? I was crafting them on my 80 provi. __________________

07-09-2009, 04:12 PM	#9
Pitt Hammerfi General Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts: 710	I would like to see a hit of about +/-18% health/power to make it interesting, Adding a larger reward/penalty would speed up the crafting for people paying attention, and possibly kill people who are not Yes i think you should bring this to the general crafting of items, it's best to make everything standard anyway (easier for expansions) Does successfully countering an event ever give a rare anymore? I'd heard about it ages ago, but in the 4 years i've had an armorer i've never seen one. Maybe think of upping the chances of rares/buffs? or even making new events to counter. And yes minor and major event counters should have different values of health/power/durability/progress gain/loss (if they dont already) More emphasis on the events please to make them more meaningfull. __________________ www.advancedws.com.au

07-09-2009, 05:19 PM	#10
Mynervia Server: Guk Guild: Revelry and Honor Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 146	I'd done a couple runs of these recipes recently, and was wondering when the newly-flavored events had gone in. This explains a few things - I'd noticed the recipes seemed much easier to complete on lower-level crafters while paying attention (which the progress bonus would largely explain), but some surprisingly difficulties when I was half-AFK doing them (hit 1+6 in rhythm while reading something, occasionally look over to see if there's an event to counter or if my round timing has drifted). Overall, they felt less frustratingly random this way, and more rewarding for actually paying attention to what you're doing. I really liked this for the holiday crafting, as that often gets done on crafters with poor relevant skills (either cross-skill crafting on a high level crafter, or classless abilities on a low level crafter) and these changes make the recipes much more enjoyable. For the main crafting, I'm more dubious - that's a lot more 'necessary' to progression and you do a lot more of it, so the ability to turn out bulk for grind reasons while only half paying attention is rather important in my opinion. While I wind up mass-producing far more holiday goods than regular fare, I'm more concerned about preserving half-attentive ROs than my profit-making half-attention holiday goods. I hadn't noticed the enlarged health hits, but -9% seems a reasonable number - that'd require 12 fails to kill you, regen non-withstanding, and in crafting you get out-of-combat regens iirc so it'd take a good bit of failure to wind up dead while still feeling threatening. That should preserve aformentioned semi-afk crafting (since that's a long time to not look over and notice you're hurting, plus if you have sound on the failed complicaiton/taken damage sound effects let you know you might want to look over) and only provide a real obstacle to zero-attention crafting (which, if anything, is an upside to the plan).

07-09-2009, 05:28 PM	#11
Barx Server: Antonia Bayle Guild: Mayhem Rank: Officers Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Manors of Mithaniel, New Halas Posts: 3,480	Hmm here's another idea I've come up with to sort of penalize afk crafting while benefiting crafters paying attention... It'd be a reaction that gets progressively worse. Lets say you get the reaction come up called Minor Boilover. If you counter it (showing that you're paying some attention) you get a decent durability boost and say 10% power. If you don't counter it, you get -5/-15 added onto that pulse and you automatically get Moderate Boilover next pulse. If you counter that, you get +5/+15 to make up for the missed last round and 5% power. If you don't counter that, you get -15/-45, -10% health, and -5% power AND you automatically get Serious Boilover on the next pulse. If you counter it now, you only get +15/+45, that's it. Now if you fail to counter it, meaning you've missed 3 in a row... you get -50/-100, -50% health, -20% power -- ie, you take a big hit.

07-09-2009, 05:57 PM	#12
denmom Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Paradigm Clutch: Never shift reality without one... Posts: 2,490	I don't like the idea. Mainly because I have such a wonkiness with crafting. I've discussed this with you before, Domino, when we've met at the Block Partys SOE throws during Comic Con weekend. Even when I counter, I still can take a hit. It's odd, I know. I am countering, I'm not missing. I've had Jrral, a friend and guildee, over to watch and he's seen this happen. He's seen where I counter each and every time only to lose durability or progress or both. He's even crafted with my toon and proven it's not me missing counters. This happens at any station be it in my guild hall, out at Ironforge inside the building or the instance, the other outside stations, or inside the instances in any of the villages. It's not a case of not knowing how to craft. I've followed the "how to", I've followed suggestions from Niami, Calthine, Rikjacki, and others, and I still have the problem. I think it's the account. I've a second account, have made toons to L9 Artisan without the same problem. But I really don't want to make a full set of crafters on that account. It's a lot of time, a lot of resources, and a lot of plat (all those books, specialty recipes, etc). I've had this problem since launch. This account is from way back then. I know some check toon ages off EQ2 Players and will see that Pheep is only from Feb 2006. That is when I transferred to Unrest from Antonia Bayle server. All of my crafters are from around launch except for my Armourer (new Swashie toon), and I even have that oddity with her. From what I'm reading, I'm the only one. I understand why folks want risk to their crafting, that it's boring to them to the point they can practically afk craft/pay little attention. I have to watch counters carefully every time I craft, so I've a vastly different experience than they. Guess I'm the odd crafter out, but you wanted to know. /shrug __________________ What I do when not playing EQ2: Paradigm Clutch

07-09-2009, 06:23 PM	#13
Qandor Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 994	Like the idea a lot. Reward those that pay attention and penalize those that do not. We need some "umph" back in crafting. Right now it is just stupidly mindless. Currentlty the only difference between EQ2's crafting and a one click combine system is that EQ2's "one click" combine takes about 30 seconds longer. Barring a coronary while crafting it is impossible to fail on a combine as it stands now.

07-09-2009, 06:31 PM	#14
denmom Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Paradigm Clutch: Never shift reality without one... Posts: 2,490	Qandor wrote: Like the idea a lot. Reward those that pay attention and penalize those that do not. We need some "umph" back in crafting. Right now it is just stupidly mindless. Currentlty the only difference between EQ2's crafting and a one click combine system is that EQ2's "one click" combine takes about 30 seconds longer. Barring a coronary while crafting it is impossible to fail on a combine as it stands now. Heh, I failed a combine of arrows last night. Countered, paying attention, but then again I've problems that can't be explained. /points to post explaining the oddity __________________ What I do when not playing EQ2: Paradigm Clutch

07-09-2009, 06:38 PM	#15
Lodrelhai Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,271	Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now? Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam. This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died.

07-09-2009, 07:06 PM	#16
Grumble69 Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,257	Please don't expand that to regular items. If there is a show on TV, I will often do provisioning since it requires 20 stinking combines for a stack of food & drink (per character). I'm only half-way paying attention when I do that chore. I don't view TS as a particularly exciting activity. The last thing I want to do is be glued to the monitor to determine whether I should be pushing 1-6. At best, it's an extremely simplified version of DDR without the music.

07-09-2009, 07:13 PM	#17
Domino Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,046	Lodrelhai wrote: Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now? Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam. This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died. It's possible now, but varies a lot depending on what profession you are, so classes die more easily than others. I don't want to make it TOO easy to die crafting, because I know a lot of people who craft a LOT don't tend to pay a huge amount of attention. If you're cranking out hundreds of items, you may well be watching a DVD or chatting in a channel while you craft, and forcing you to pay exact attention every minute or you die is not going to add fun, in fact, it's going to make it less fun. However, a more consistent penalty for failure and reward for success regardless of your class, plus an increase in the frequency of the rare events (including getting that rare) should give crafters more control over the process as well and make it feel more rewarding.

07-09-2009, 07:38 PM	#18
Domino Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,046	Deson wrote: I can't comment as I don't have the resources to make the comments anymore but if it's anything like the Far Seas events, I can't see complaining. Is the the first result of the earlier proposal for more meaningful reactions? If so, could you have the resources for Nights of the Dead and Erollisi recipes put live on test so people like me can look at how they are now and comment? I've put a bunch of the Erollisi notes and Nights of the Dead candies on the broker on both Test and Test Copy for folks to try out. The recipes are no trade so I couldn't add those, but anybody whose live character has the recipes can copy over to Test Copy if they'd like to check it out and can't find components on live servers.

07-09-2009, 07:42 PM	#19
Deson Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,754	DominoDev wrote: Deson wrote: I can't comment as I don't have the resources to make the comments anymore but if it's anything like the Far Seas events, I can't see complaining. Is the the first result of the earlier proposal for more meaningful reactions? If so, could you have the resources for Nights of the Dead and Erollisi recipes put live on test so people like me can look at how they are now and comment? I've put a bunch of the Erollisi notes and Nights of the Dead candies on the broker on both Test and Test Copy for folks to try out. The recipes are no trade so I couldn't add those, but anybody whose live character has the recipes can copy over to Test Copy if they'd like to check it out and can't find components on live servers. Thanks! Pretty sure I have at least one set of recipes on a character to try it, just have to find who has it. __________________ I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom. I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break my doom and gloom.I will not let Domino break...

07-09-2009, 07:45 PM	#20
Gungo Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Crushbone Posts: 5,378	Since you are planning on changing reactive arts you should make it so people can't bot craft. If you are going to make it so the reactive arts can kill you. You should remove the LOG file sent by reactives. And leave only the visual que for people to counter. Its tremendously more difficult for bot programs to read in game visual ques then it is to read log files.

07-09-2009, 07:50 PM	#21
Dragowulf Server: Nagafen Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: California, United States of America Posts: 763	DominoDev wrote: Lodrelhai wrote: Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now? Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam. This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died. It's possible now, but varies a lot depending on what profession you are, so classes die more easily than others. I don't want to make it TOO easy to die crafting, because I know a lot of people who craft a LOT don't tend to pay a huge amount of attention. If you're cranking out hundreds of items, you may well be watching a DVD or chatting in a channel while you craft, and forcing you to pay exact attention every minute or you die is not going to add fun, in fact, it's going to make it less fun. However, a more consistent penalty for failure and reward for success regardless of your class, plus an increase in the frequency of the rare events (including getting that rare) should give crafters more control over the process as well and make it feel more rewarding. Well if you're not going to change the penalty at least give those who actually pay attention and counter 100% of the time a better success reward because currently it almost doesn't even matter. __________________

07-09-2009, 08:15 PM	#22
Gladiolus Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 873	I can't get into Test to look at this (because of yet another 40-minute download for the cards - when are they going to give us an option not to download LoN stuff?) but at the moment the keys we press don't make much difference, it all depends on the character. With my tailor, I can start the item and go pour a cup of tea and come back in time to start the next one, no problem. With my woodworker, I have only four times in 53 levels been able to finish a rush order, because I pay full attention, not even talking while I'm doing it, pressing all the right buttons, pressing more buttons to extend durability when there's nothing to counter, and still it fails more often than not. Having something that might speed up my provisioner sounds good. I spend about an hour a day making food for the guild, and only glance at the screen when I need to start the next item, the rest of the time I'm sitting reading, so that I don't fall asleep.

07-09-2009, 08:57 PM	#23
Boyar Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Seattle area Posts: 146	Pheep, have you had someone try your character that was neither on your computer nor using your internet connection? I've had occasional bouts of bad upstream latency that have caused my command actions to be temporally offset from what I'm seeing on the screen. Turning off spell queueing helped me a little, but crafting was really hard whenever it happened. (Thankfully it hasn't happened since we switched broadband providers) On the topic at hand, my biggest gripe about crafting as is are the streaky streaks of random fails with no events available to counter. I love the idea of counters being worth more (positive or negative). Personally, I wish counters happened more often, but then I tend to be one of those total focus freaks, singleminded in my crafting. Guildies can just darn well wait for the writ to be done before getting an answer. __________________

07-09-2009, 09:05 PM	#24
madha General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 666	make the reaction stuff you want to do on masterd crafted items and shard stuff and the combines for the ts quest zones, as those are the only combines i ever even bother to use the reaction arts.

07-09-2009, 09:24 PM	#25
Cele General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Anything that adds some variety and a bit more challenge to our crafting is a good thing, IMO. __________________

07-09-2009, 09:46 PM	#26
Obann Server: Permafrost Guild: Clan Nan Dreolan Rank: Leader Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 153	Two thumbs up. Tried this out the other day on some Erollisi Day items. Made it feel less of a chore to get "pristine". The benefit for a succesful counter is a great idea. I've gotten to the point that everytime I succesfully counter a reaction I think "Really, what's the point? I don't get any real benefit for it." __________________

07-09-2009, 09:58 PM	#27
denmom Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Paradigm Clutch: Never shift reality without one... Posts: 2,490	Thud@Befallen wrote: Pheep, have you had someone try your character that was neither on your computer nor using your internet connection? I've had occasional bouts of bad upstream latency that have caused my command actions to be temporally offset from what I'm seeing on the screen. Turning off spell queueing helped me a little, but crafting was really hard whenever it happened. (Thankfully it hasn't happened since we switched broadband providers) On the topic at hand, my biggest gripe about crafting as is are the streaky streaks of random fails with no events available to counter. I love the idea of counters being worth more (positive or negative). Personally, I wish counters happened more often, but then I tend to be one of those total focus freaks, singleminded in my crafting. Guildies can just darn well wait for the writ to be done before getting an answer. Can't be the connection. My husband has crafted without any problem on his computer, and he's on the same connection as I am. I've crafted with my toons on my husbands' computer, same problems show up. When Jrral was over, he tested his toons' crafting on my computer numerous times and had no problem with crafting. It's always the toons on my first account that have this problem. The toons that I've crafted with on my second account aren't affected at all. Our home connection has what the Cox techs call "direct feed". We're literally ten feet from the cable junction box in our apartment complex and we have a line directly into the box. I defrag every day and do what I should to keep the computer happy. It comes down to this account just being odd as hell. >_< __________________ What I do when not playing EQ2: Paradigm Clutch

07-10-2009, 12:01 AM	#28
Jrral Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,610	Thud@Befallen wrote: Pheep, have you had someone try your character that was neither on your computer nor using your internet connection? I've tried it. I've logged on my 'toons on her computer and crafted, and no problems. But if I take over one of her toons and craft, well, it's not a nightmare but it's definitely harder going than on mine. More events to counter, more strings of back-to-back events, more failures, I have to lean on the +durability arts heavily where on my own characters I can lean on +progress with only an occasional durability boost. And then I'll have her camp over to a toon on her other account and I'll take it, and crafting's more like my own characters. I've seen similar things harvesting. On the same number of nodes, Kudail will be picking up 2-3 rares for every one of mine. Yes, I know, small sample size and all, but if it's just a short-term bad streak then why does it keep up month after month after month for years? Short-term streaks in the RNG are just that: short-term. Partly it's because I've gotten bitten by RNGs in the past. Target range 0-9. 1000 samples. Average: 4.5, dead on. Distribution: perfect, every value occurred exactly 100 times. Yes, that RNG's completely broken.

07-10-2009, 12:18 AM	#29
Maroger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3,313	DominoDev wrote: Lodrelhai wrote: Um... I've got guildmates who already die if they look away from the crafting table too long on regular recipes. Is that not supposed to be happening now? Just the other day my guild leader got hit. Was grinding her alchemist, and her sister called. She was paying attention to the phone and suddenly the "You are dead" window popped up. Of course she doesn't log, so I only have her report to confirm, but she said looking back in her chat she had a long string of "You failed to counter" messages and damage spam. This is the second time she's been killed by a crafting table in the last year or so. Last time the ww tables had something against my guild, because a couple people's woodworkers died. It's possible now, but varies a lot depending on what profession you are, so classes die more easily than others. I don't want to make it TOO easy to die crafting, because I know a lot of people who craft a LOT don't tend to pay a huge amount of attention. If you're cranking out hundreds of items, you may well be watching a DVD or chatting in a channel while you craft, and forcing you to pay exact attention every minute or you die is not going to add fun, in fact, it's going to make it less fun. However, a more consistent penalty for failure and reward for success regardless of your class, plus an increase in the frequency of the rare events (including getting that rare) should give crafters more control over the process as well and make it feel more rewarding. I don't like the idea at all. If I craft in the morning I have no problem with the events -- but I noticed that if I craft in the evening I miss a lot of events due to lag. I may hit 3 keys -- but due to lag another event will kick in and I will miss it. The lag factor causes you to miss more events when the server is busy -- generally I think this is a terrible idea as it means you can have lag kill you at the crafting table. Why bring back this -- it was great when they got rid of it and there is no need to bring back a bad idea. It won't make crafting more fun -- just more tedious.

07-10-2009, 02:32 AM	#30
SilkenKidden Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,039	DominoDev wrote: If you've crafted any of the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes since last game update (52), you may have noticed that they have reaction warning events to counter now, with a little seasonal flavour. Missing something always results in a penalty, and countering something always results in a boost to progress. I'm interested in hearing any feedback on whether you find the penalties and rewards for these events to be appropriately sized (-9% health or power is the worst penalty that missing any one reaction should give you), and whether you feel that a similar change to the primary tradeskill classes' warning events would be a good thing. It WOULD mean that if you wander away totally AFK and miss a series of warnings, you could die. On the other hand, you'd have to miss several in order to die, and it would also mean that every successful counter would give a significant and meaningful boost to progress or durability. Please try out the Erollisi Day or Nights of the Dead recipes before commenting, to see what the changes really feel like. LOL. I hope we can only die on Halloween. That is so appropriate. However I have no more Halloween candy and can't even buy it on the broker. Can you sneak on to Butcherblock and put some Nights of the Dead fodder on the broker? But to die for love? Oh, no. I hope you at least put flowers on the body. I did try these with my master sage. I love the new event names. I had a problem with one recipe from this book. It is a tinker recipe and my transmuter can not yet tinker, so I had no reaction arts. That worked well in forcing me to just let the combine run but I just ran out of durability and lost the combine. I didn't fail enough of the events to get killed. When I did other combines (non-tinker) I had no problem with them at all. I didn't have to mash durability to keep up.