No More Instances

[dpsman]

Does every single new zone in the game have to be an instance? Is The Hole in the new expansion gonna be a silly Instance like the poor excuse for Howling Stones?

Why is the norm to make everything be an instance lately?

[Ashmen_Skimmerhorn]

I'm not defending either side but when everything was not an instance, everyone complained that they could not do anything because every one else was killing the names/everything in the dungeons. Everyone cried for instanced content and now everyone is crying for non-instanced content. 

I dont think the Devs can win on this topic. The best thing would be to strike a good balance between contested degeons and instanced content not completely one way or the other like they have been doing.

[liveja]

I will cry if The Hole is an instance.

[freel]

I like instances. I don't have to worry about farmers or playing around other groups who may or may not be polite about sharing. Instances allow multiple groups or people to do the same content at the same time.

I don't know why that wouldn't be a good thing.

[Deson]

Freewyn@Crushbone wrote:

I like instances. I don't have to worry about farmers or playing around other groups who may or may not be polite about sharing. Instances allow multiple groups or people to do the same content at the same time.

I don't know why that wouldn't be a good thing.

Lockouts and the lack of other people.

[freel]

I admit lockouts are annoying, but I don't understand the lack of people. Plenty of folks will be around when you zone out.

[Armawk]

Freewyn@Crushbone wrote:

I don't know why that wouldn't be a good thing.

Those are indeed good things about instances, as is the lack of respawns (sometimes). There are plenty of bad things though, the disconnect from the world, lack of community and sense of an active world, the fact that the instance is a group multiplayer mini-game and not part of the MMO at all really.

I can totally see the attraction of instances as a solution for the very real problems of designing shared content in an MMO... but I see them as a slightly sad workaround not a real solution. I dont HAVE a real solution of course

[circusgirl]

I think there really ought to be a contested low-mid level dungeon and a high level dungeon out with each new expansion (for example, with the level cap raised an 80-85 and an 88-93).  Contested dungeons are fun!  I know some of my best memories are with the original RE.

[Giral]

 open dungeons have no lock out, so if you want to stay there the entire day doing quests(like people did in sos,poa)you can., other poeple looking for groups in SOS/poa often came to the zone in and would solo the solo mobs wyle they LFG'd in the zone, people/groups would often lose players and would have new recruits in the zone to invite and get back to killing with minimal downtime.

open dungeons generaly are easier then instances, they have "Alot" more names in them then instances, and the vast majority of the names are just hack and slash(only a ring event or a name or 2 might have a small script). 

and Easier open dungeons means Small groups (and group play for small groups in Rok and TSO wyle leveling or recently at level cap has been almost completly removed) can Slowly work thru the open dungeons.  you say the faster groups will just kill all the names ? not .... the faster groups will be clearing alot of placeholders, and the small group can come across a name pop this way . or Camp at a spot that has been recently cleared by a faster group to wait to see if a name pops .

When the content is outleveled and there arent many groups to be found, Open dungeons are a great place for small groups to go to wyle leveling up, get some quests done=AA and maybe a few sweet items, + masters

when the level cap is raised to 90 how many Small groups are going to be able to go thru the TSO instances when trying to level from 80 to 90 ? not many becuase A) they wont have a set of Shard gear , and B) not many 3 to 4 person players in a mix of gear with a mix of aa and spell level in a mixed group of healer/tank and 1 or 2 others will be able to survive against much except  trash

there are still groups going to SOS , and POA tho /ponder ,, altho i cant remeber the lastime i saw a group looking for more for HOF, or BSS, or even Den of devouror ... why ? becuase for a small group of 3 or 4  they can go to sos/poa and get many names . they are easier then the instances and require no thought on the names like BSS does, or Den, and much easier then HOF with 3 or 4 people and much faster.

Open dungeons are a win/win/win situation for the Long haul health of the game, Lost and lots of names, lots and lots of chances at masters, quest lines that gave out some decent reards for various parts of the quests,etc etc etc .

 Soe wants people to Rush to max level , but to do that you have to solo most of it, but A good enough amount of the population doesn't want to play an MMo to solo to lvl 90, they want to group, and grouping at lower levels means you need easier zones for Small groups , and contested zones were that place. 

.

the negatives ... you Might have a chance that there will be a Jerk in the zone ... like OMG the horror.

 you might lose a name to a gangker , sucks to be you , but just kill the placeholders a few times and Tada a name pops .

 you might get run'ed over by a danged ol train... "DONT AE" when a train goes by ..simple

easy solutions for losing a name for quest updates = make Most(not all) placeholders update quests.

use your Ignore command to filter out any obnoxious talk in open dunguens, it takes 3 seconds to add someone to ignore(less if you are Uba : )

Lagg ? yeah yeah, my comps 4 years old, is a PCI(not express), and i have 1 gig of memory, and i have raided and done every instance zone since release,, theres a Nifty little feature that you can save diffrent settings on.. i have one for Riad and one for normal play , if the zones laggy in 3 seconds and a couple clicks i have raid settings on and barely notice lagg ( except for in MOORS a Hugemongous SOLO zone... lol go figure i need raid settings to go solo in )

..

as a side note, to respond to an earlier poster on this thread,,,, no the Vast majority didnt ask for the game to be ALL instanced, possibly there was some small portion of players posting about how they Hate Consteted content, but as in all the other aspects of the game , you shouldn't cater to who screams the loudest.  contested zones serve many purposes , and IMO the positives far outwiegh the negatives. if people dont like playing around other people then (to kick a dead horse) why play in an MMO and then cry that there are other groups around you ?

as i said in another thread, if you have 16 instance(8 easy,4medium,2hard,2extreme) and 2 Massively huge Contested zones (1 easy, 1easy/medium)  then every should be happy, except for the selfish people who only care about what they want.

the game is created for ALL playstyles, so why then arent there anymore contested zones? becuase a minority doesnt like them ? thats just bad decision making,..... put your earplugs in, and design contested content, if a minority does'nt like it then they can choose to go and suck it up or choose to not go, but the game should be about choices, not about Boxing everyone into guild halls, and instances so we never have to see another living soul for the vast majority of our game play

[GrunEQ]

I would like a balance.  I like zones that have something for everyone.  What I don't like are scripts, part of that being that the scrips are flash only, and I don't notice them fast enough, and it does not write to chat for me to be able to see what I missed. (and I miss almost all of it)

A well designed zone will have a mix and some imagination and novelity to make quests interesting and fun.  Note, grind is not fun.

[Rashaak]

Grainer@Crushbone wrote:

Does every single new zone in the game have to be an instance? Is The Hole in the new expansion gonna be a silly Instance like the poor excuse for Howling Stones?

Why is the norm to make everything be an instance lately?

QFE!

While it is nice to be the only group in the zone I actually prefer a dungeon where two or three groups are fighting over position in the Instance. Racing through to kill the named just to watch them wipe and your group gets to call them newbs and take down the named mob.   *sigh*  

That was one thing that always made me enjoy FG, RoV, and RE. They don't have many dungeons like that anymore...or any good dungeons that is...

[Morrias]

KoS was a PERFECT balance, between EVERYTHING, solo, group (contested / instanced), raiding (casual and hardcore), if SoE can repeat the KoS balance, then balance is what I want, but if were gonna get another CHardok / Sebilis, id pref all instanced content..

NOTE: Quest grinding is not fun, group grinding is! (Need another Breeding Grounds!!)

[freel]

I was responding based on the title of this thread: No more instances.

I agree that a balance of content should be offered - open areas and instances.

Many (not all) complaints about the instances have to do with how the zones are designed. There is no reason why they have to be scripted. I also am not a fan of scripted zones. They could have more names, they could be anything the player base desires if they were designed differently. So the idea of instances is not the only issue.

I don't get the lack of community, etc. I still have chat when I enter an instance. It's kinda like when you go to work in real life at a small company - for eight hours you have only those small amount of folks to interact with except you still have the phone, e-mail and chat. But as soon as the work day is done - walk out the door and you have people. While I'm at work do I have a lose of community - I don't think so.

I think having preconceived ideas about what a MMO is or should be puts limits on its ability to be more and do more to try to create a balance for the HUGE variety of playstyles.

No more instances is as bad an idea as no more contested zones.

[Kigneer]

Freewyn@Crushbone wrote:

I like instances. I don't have to worry about farmers or playing around other groups who may or may not be polite about sharing. Instances allow multiple groups or people to do the same content at the same time.

I don't know why that wouldn't be a good thing.

So true. Even doing the Rhime grind for faction (killing those [Removed for Content] scorpions) folks were so greedy, to even steal your victim from under you WHILE YOU'RE KILLING IT, and get miffed when you get credit for the kill! Doh! So I like instances for it's just your group in there doing their thing, without bots/farmers spoiling the fun (besides, if you missed getting something in a cleared zone [especially for another quest] you can go back in and get it, without fighting all over again). Contested zones bring more problems than not, especially if 2 or more groups are in a zone at a time. There's not enough to go around, and it's bad enough to wait for some group to form to fight the things as is.

[Giral]

Freewyn@Crushbone wrote:

I was responding based on the title of this thread: No more instances.

I agree that a balance of content should be offered - open areas and instances.

Many (not all) complaints about the instances have to do with how the zones are designed. There is no reason why they have to be scripted. I also am not a fan of scripted zones. They could have more names, they could be anything the player base desires if they were designed differently. So the idea of instances is not the only issue.

I don't get the lack of community, etc. I still have chat when I enter an instance. It's kinda like when you go to work in real life at a small company - for eight hours you have only those small amount of folks to interact with except you still have the phone, e-mail and chat. But as soon as the work day is done - walk out the door and you have people. While I'm at work do I have a lose of community - I don't think so.

I think having preconceived ideas about what a MMO is or should be puts limits on its ability to be more and do more to try to create a balance for the HUGE variety of playstyles.

No more instances is as bad an idea as no more contested zones.

the sense of community in open dungeons is that your actualy there with other groups. you can fight side by side, race to names, have discussions in the zone, ask for help, ask for where a quest update would be (when contested zones first come out and befor everything is listed on a spoiler sight) its nice for some of us to interact with random people in dungeons, its breaths a diffrent life into the game.

its like the differance between Normal and Roleplay groups, if you have ever been in a good roleplay group, you can go into a dungeon you have done 50 times and the roleplay aspect can make the experiance completely diffrent and you actualy have the most fun that 50th time and your other 49 times were just bland dunguon runs.

or if you go to a zone with someone who is very knowlegeable about the lore of the game/zone.  listening to them tell you the complete story about the zone, how it ties into eq1 lore etc.

all of the above add diffrent depths to the game that generaly are not there when your just in an instance zone with the same 6 to 10 people you normaly group with and talking in group and guild chat about farts, getting drunk and whos cybering who.

.

   would the atmosphere at your work change if once a week another small company or 2 or 3 or 4 came into your office, and you were all trying to get the same work done ? who would get it done first ? who would get sick and leave early, who would get fired : ) who would get bonuses? etc etc....  

      yeah you can still call friends,email at work just like you can guild chat/friends chat ingame,, but contested content would mean you would have 8 to 24+ other people in your office at the same time would you say that you would have far more personal interaction with those people then you would if they were all off in a seperate office ? if the answer is Yes , then it would stand to reason that if your in a group zone with a bunch of other groups you would have a bit more reason to interact with people you normaly wouldnt. 

when your in an instance zone do you just send out random tells to people in other instances you dont know ? of course not you have no reason to ask them if they are camping a name, or if they know where XX mob is for quest Vw, or if they mind if a person in your group that needs an update for a quest could join there group for a name kill . etc etc etc

[Kigneer]

Giralus wrote:

the sense of community in open dungeons is that your actualy there with other groups. you can fight side by side, race to names, have discussions in the zone, ask for help, ask for where a quest update would be (when contested zones first come out and befor everything is listed on a spoiler sight) its nice for some of us to interact with random people in dungeons, its breaths a diffrent life into the game.

There's not enough to go around, and it's bad enough to wait for some group to form to fight the things as is. Level 70-79 chat is a spam fest of folks looking for mainly dps and healers. Add more contested zones, and the spam will just increase. Spam isn't about "community" it's saying there's not enough players around even in their guilds to do even instance content. There needs to be a central meeting zone for players to pickup players for groups, instead of sitting in GHs spamming, "80 Zerker lfg...bored", or trying to find them in contested areas. Dislike the group spam contested zones can bring, especially when you're handling the monster/mobs fine yourself (or with a couple others) and don't need the w-a-i-t-i-n-g groups bring just to join them.

[Neskonlith]

Kigneer wrote:

Freewyn@Crushbone wrote:

I like instances. I don't have to worry about farmers or playing around other groups who may or may not be polite about sharing. Instances allow multiple groups or people to do the same content at the same time.

I don't know why that wouldn't be a good thing.

So true. Even doing the Rhime grind for faction (killing those [Removed for Content] scorpions) folks were so greedy, to even steal your victim from under you WHILE YOU'RE KILLING IT, and get miffed when you get credit for the kill! Doh! So I like instances for it's just your group in there doing their thing, without bots/farmers spoiling the fun (besides, if you missed getting something in a cleared zone [especially for another quest] you can go back in and get it, without fighting all over again). Contested zones bring more problems than not, especially if 2 or more groups are in a zone at a time. There's not enough to go around, and it's bad enough to wait for some group to form to fight the things as is.

On pvp servers, not only do other people steal your mobs, they kill you while they are at it - on pvp, YOU are the contested mob.

Instances are nice to let you relax a little and have some fun with the pve side of the game, so I support a good mix of every type, of each playstyle being available to choose from.

[Kigneer]

Neskonlith wrote:

On pvp servers, not only do other people steal your mobs, they kill you while they are at it - on pvp, YOU are the contested mob.

Why I don't play on PvP servers. Had enough PvP in FPS and other MMOs games as it is! For PvP, instances are a saving grace to get something done without always looking over the shoulder. Don't know how PvP works in EQ2, but in some other MMOs, even cities can be turned to open PvP with a writ, killing even tradeskillers in so-called "neutral" zones. Enough of open PvP is enough for folks to w-a-n-t PvE (and no RMT, as those loaded with RMT goods are often the ones abusing open PvP -- pure gankers)!

[Giral]

Kigneer wrote:

Giralus wrote:

the sense of community in open dungeons is that your actualy there with other groups. you can fight side by side, race to names, have discussions in the zone, ask for help, ask for where a quest update would be (when contested zones first come out and befor everything is listed on a spoiler sight) its nice for some of us to interact with random people in dungeons, its breaths a diffrent life into the game.

There's not enough to go around, and it's bad enough to wait for some group to form to fight the things as is. Level 70-79 chat is a spam fest of folks looking for mainly dps and healers. Add more contested zones, and the spam will just increase. Spam isn't about "community" it's saying there's not enough players around even in their guilds to do even instance content. There needs to be a central meeting zone for players to pickup players for groups, instead of sitting in GHs spamming, "80 Zerker lfg...bored", or trying to find them in contested areas. Dislike the group spam contested zones can bring, especially when you're handling the monster/mobs fine yourself (or with a couple others) and don't need the w-a-i-t-i-n-g groups bring just to join them.

thats fine, and im glad you like instances, i like them also.

nobody is asking for Tons of contested content.

people are asking for 2 contested zones an expansion.

not even asking for 50/50. or 60/40 or  70/30 or even 80/20

it is a Game for ALL playstyles is it not ?

i like contested content and so do many other people, it isnt your cup of tea but why spit in mine ?

you say you dont like someone ganking a scorpion from you ? but yet you have no problems ganking contested zones away from a large portion of the playerbase who would prefer to have just a couple of them becuase You dont like them ? yeah that sounds fair : )

but then again your a Paly so i dont expect anything reasonable or fair from you  /chuckle  

[Kigneer]

Giralus wrote:

i like contested content and so do many other people, it isnt your cup of tea but why spit in mine ?

you say you dont like someone ganking a scorpion from you ? but yet you have no problems ganking contested zones away from a large portion of the playerbase who would prefer to have just a couple of them becuase You dont like them ? yeah that sounds fair : )

but then again your a Paly so i dont expect anything reasonable or fair from you  /chuckle  

Can't have it both ways, Giralus. If you want to defend contested instances, also understand why folks also don't like them, and say so (and the ganker comment had nothing to do with what you wrote, was posting to a PvPer, not you). Now even "touchy" with Pally comebacks even -- epic fail. I came from other games, and contested zones is ALL they offered. You get burned out on them, you spend more time dealing with bots/farmers (have horror stories to tell on this subject!), than content. When some guild camps names and farms them, you have no way to get in to kill the boss/mob -- it turns the game into like these buying mythical updates (which SoE turns a blind eye too, just like other MMOs of contested zone farmers/bots/gold sellers), or this avatar spying/dying to tag it/farm status. This is w-h-y instances exist, so anyone at any time can get in, and out and not having to deal with farmers/bots and their pay-or-not-play mentality. Casual gaming is the norm now too, folks play part of a zone, call it a night and come back to it another day. Not keep killing the same trash to get where they were when they logged off before!

[Neskonlith]

I found this info posted at eq2wire:

Contested dungeonThe Hole82+

3 different wings. Spawn in the middle.

Brenlo directly addressed Gage about rumors. Raid mobs in new zones will have a choice of difficulty so no zone will be completely unbeatable

Some mobs will have multiple loot tables

——–No new deities with expac——–

Guild level 90More amenities and more slots

———2 overland zones1 contested zone similar to sanctum of scaleborn12 group instances

Level by grouping or soloing

more information can be found at: http://fanfaire08.feldoncentral.com/

[Davngr1]

unless combat exp is seriously up graded shared dungons will stay empty even if they give them the best loot and the coolest look.    people will take the path of least resistance, in KoS that was SoS people use to stay lfg in that dungon for hours every day till they hit lvl 65 or so then off to PoA. 

   in EoF it was pointless to do CMM because AA conversion was too low and it was one of the first zones to "require" the right classes, no longer could you pick up 6 poeple only making sure that one was a tank and one was a healer. 

   then came RoK, i remember zoning into KC and seeing quite a few poeple at one point(noobs that did not make it to beta clearly), it was not long before everyone left.   why grind 2 hours in a dungen for 15%% xp when you can do 20 quest in that same 2 hours and get 50%+ xp?

   so yea i don't know if devs plan to bring back grinding EQ1 style back to EQ2 ever but if they do, it needs to be more then just adding a dungon imo. 

[Odys]

Yes sebilis was wonderfull, you could do parts with may be two people (solid heal and solid tank) and push further with more people or with a good group. 

One other thing i loved in big large open dungeon is that wiping induced a severe penalty, there rebirth, feathers on a fd class rocked.

Open dungeons were also Freedom, freedom to quit at any time, freedom to join at any time. The mini raid game  invented i TSO (or at the end of ROK with runny2) is fun and challenging  but it should not be 100% of the single group game.

[Gilasil]

I'd hate a shared dungeon.  I had plenty of that in EQ1.

Community?  You have to be kidding.  The main community I remember in a shared dungeon was the kill stealing and waiting for a mob you needed to spawn because someone else already killed it.  I am quite happy without that kind of "community". 

The only shared dungeon which was fun was the one where we were the only people playing.  In which case it's basically an instance.

[Dasein]

Davngr1 wrote:

unless combat exp is seriously up graded shared dungons will stay empty even if they give them the best loot and the coolest look.    people will take the path of least resistance, in KoS that was SoS people use to stay lfg in that dungon for hours every day till they hit lvl 65 or so then off to PoA. 

   in EoF it was pointless to do CMM because AA conversion was too low and it was one of the first zones to "require" the right classes, no longer could you pick up 6 poeple only making sure that one was a tank and one was a healer. 

   then came RoK, i remember zoning into KC and seeing quite a few poeple at one point(noobs that did not make it to beta clearly), it was not long before everyone left.   why grind 2 hours in a dungen for 15%% xp when you can do 20 quest in that same 2 hours and get 50%+ xp?

   so yea i don't know if devs plan to bring back grinding EQ1 style back to EQ2 ever but if they do, it needs to be more then just adding a dungon imo. 

KoS handled progression very well since there were a couple of big questlines which tied pretty much all th zones together. Between the Claymore series and hat quest, you'd see just about every zones in the game. SoS and PoA also each had their own smaller questlines. Thus, there was strong incentive to head to the group zones and spend quite a bit of time there.

In EoF, I seem to recall CMM groups being fairly common for quest updates and camping named for set piece drops. AA was a secondary concern, and there wasn't anything like the AA grind we had in TSO.

[Andu]

All i know is that I have spent hours and hours in contested dungeons. I have run every instance in the game only once, maybe twice (with the exception of raids because there is precious little choice).

The reason a lot of people like contested is that they are different every time you enter, as they are effected by other people there.

Once an instance is done then every time you go back it's just grinding.

I came to realise during TSO just how much I missed the contested elements. I would not want a repeat of that model again.

[Kordran]

Ukae@Befallen wrote:

NOTE: Quest grinding is not fun, group grinding is! (Need another Breeding Grounds!!)

For you, maybe. For myself, I find it tedious and boring. My fun in the game is raiding, my socialization is with my guildmates. I don't see contested dungeons being any more valid as a "social" aspect of the game than the argument that guildhalls ruined the game because you don't have 50 people standing around the broker in QH.

Sorry, but being around a random collection of mentally challenged players running around like decapitated chickens, or farmers flopping from named to named, spamming "u go now!" does not enhance either my gameplay or my sense of community.

But, hey, if they want to drive that final stake through the heart of the game and turn the servers off to reduce those greenhouse gas emissions, then yah, sure. Great idea.

[Kordran]

Anduri wrote:

The reason a lot of people like contested is that they are different every time you enter, as they are effected by other people there.

Oh come on. The only difference is in your head. They're exactly the same, nothing changes except that every once in a while, a_placeholder_monster_01 is replaced with a_named_monster_01 that'll usually drop some legendary vendor trash. Yup, that definitely makes the game a more vibrant, exciting experience; and who doesn't need that extra 35g the vendor will give you... not.

And let's look at the vast, vast majority of players who populate the current contested dungeons, as well as contested dungeons from expansions  past: farmers and wannabe farmers. They're not down there because they enjoy the thrill of it all, they're there to flop around from named to named, killing them and hoping that a high-value master will drop.

Yeah, that adds so much to my gameplay experience.

[liveja]

Kordran wrote:

Anduri wrote:

The reason a lot of people like contested is that they are different every time you enter, as they are effected by other people there.

Oh come on. The only difference is in your head.

If your group wipes on The Master in Crucible, what do you do? You re-buff & run back. You can easily do this, because you've cleared the dungeon, & nothing inside respawns. Wiping on The Master, or any other "end zone" instance boss, is no big deal. You know The Master is going to be up, too. You don't have to hyper-burn through the dungeon, hoping nobody else has killed him before you can get to him. You don't have to worry about "camping" his room until he re-spawns. Those differences alone mean that tactics & strategy are going to be subtly different in contested dungeons to what they are in instances.

I'm sick past my ears of instances. Reading that the next expac is going to have 1 contested dungeon & 12 instances makes me an unhappy camper

[Seidhkona]

Oh yes, Karnor's Castle is such a hub of socialization. It's an open dungeon, plenty of names, group friendly. And that refreshing breeze as the brawler runs his train by you to go snatch the next name or shiny, so cooling! So invigorating!

Yes, entering Karnor's Keep emphasizes how much we Norrathians want open dunegons. You see everyone hanging out here, reading their player-written books to one another and sharing a frothy ale, before linking arms in fine comradeship and hunting foes. No, wait... they're not? Oh yeah.... WATCH OUT THE TRAIN IS BACK!!!

And of course there's the refreshing conversation and roleplay in Karnor's. Delightful cries of "WAHHHH QUIT STEALING THE NAMES!!!!" and "lololol U R n00bZ!" really set the mood. This reaches a crescendo when the anguished cry of "Zammit! I needed Zalgoz for the quest you [deleted][unfit for print][incestuous]!!" rises, and we all pause for a moment and bow our heads, murmuring a prayer for the lost soul as the cry drifts away on the brreze from THE TRAIN! MOVE QUICK!