That's a Wrap

[Aven Elonis]

Well that's it for me, cancelled the account. Was MT, and was reduced to being a DPS type on raids. Good lord what's the point of a guardian on a raid, if not tanking something. Sigh. SOE really needs to get this stuff figured out.

[LygerT]

the tank revamp screwed up the whole time table but i still had my doubts even after it would have possibly went in because things weren't balanced even going into it.

[Rahatmattata]

IDK what class replaced you but they will probably miss your stoneskins, mit, group saves, and your personal saves once they start pulling things that hit hard. What class replaced you and are they better geared than you? Do you have AAs and masters and good dps & survivability?

Why quit though? Just find another guild IMO. Or be OT/pretend dps and gear up in the meantime while looking for another guild.

[thial]

not sure if hes gona come back to check these boards but if he does I have a few questions as someone asked what class replaced you and why? If its do to agro control on raids I could see where u are hurting by looking at your current AA but I'm not sure what is in your mirror.

[Yimway]

Most likely switched to SK.  Not sure what other they would choose and make fly.

[Lethe5683]

Guardians sure give up quickly.

[Rahatmattata]

Bruisers sure QQ a lot.

[Lethe5683]

I wonder why. /sarcasm

[Rahatmattata]

Not sure. You'd think they'd be happy with all the plat farming shinies around Norrath. /sarcasm = 0;

[Undorett]

Is that Leathe incognito?

[Rahatmattata]

Yea

[Undorett]

bleh, this post is tainted then...

[Lethe5683]

~

[LygerT]

for the most part the aggro issues are to blame, too many scrub SKs who use death march and sacrament and pull aggro off the tank constantly. only time i pulled aggro as a zerk is if i was doing significantly more DPS or some dummy had aggro dumped on me.

i can understand having to work to do a job and that is why i sympathize with people who retire due to a class becoming overpowered(or at least left overpowered for 5+ months). tanking is work, not like comparing a wizard to an assassin. other tanks making more work for you, of course will over time wear you out. aggro bouncing around is a detriment to the raid and does make the main tank look bad as well.

[Aven Elonis]

Bingo LygerT.

Sorry hadn't brother to look at this thread until now. Hopefully for those Guardians staying, SoE will get it figured out. Best of luck to you all.

[Landiin]

And I don't care what any one says.. Their DPS with shield and sword shouldn't be what a warriors DPS is DWing or more. I could understand if they used a 2 hander and achieved that DPS but the way it is now it just OPing along with their hate control.

[Uggli]

I don't think many crusaders disagree with you about the sword+shield vs 2 hander issue.  The problem is that 2 handers are just not a viable option, and haven't been since before RoK.  They are not itemized correctly,  the damage on them is not done correctly, and there are no AA lines to augment 2 handers.   Part of this might be because the epic weapons are 1 handed, so the devs added AA's around that.    They should of made the epics clickable to toggle from 1 handed to 2 handed, and made a few AA's that adjusted things for the 2 handed weapons.  But they did not, so we are stuck.

[EverAfterIt]

I'm an 80 Guard, serving most often as OT but rotating as MT for my guild's raid force.

My only issue, as I see it, with SK's are the ones that are epic equipped (cannot speak against the Myth versions, never had one yet). By inspection, and correct me if I'm wrong, I see that besides the taunt they throw for disease debuff, the lifetaps they use for damage I'm sure, and the epic's ability to convert lifetap into threat... it' very very difficult to hold against them. They have threat by taunt, by taps (heals) and then by conversion of heals into hate. So why are there not more SK MT's?

For one, in my experience, they cannot take the hits. Most SK's I think lack the avoidence that a Guard can attain and utilize more effectively. SK's can have as much or more HP, they can get as much Mitigation, similiar everything, but they get shafted on decent avoidence. So, as far as I can tell, they are hate generating machines, but wrapped in a hard plastic coating. Again, I might be wrong, but I see what I see.

Again, maybe way off base with my assessment. I can, on a bad night when we are throwing a raid force together with what we got, end up with up to 3 SK's in my force. I used to get upset with it, but I don't now. I treat them as type of mitigation... FACT - they will take aggro. FACT - they will die. When I'm waiting for Fact 1, I save my rescue's...and when Fact 1 is realized, I simply sit back and auto attack and saving power. Then when Fact 2 is achieved, I throw a rescue and proceed with business until another SK takes aggro. Rinse and Repeat.

What's the solution? Nerf SK? Psssshaw. I ask for no nerf for any reason. Nerfing makes things worse overall. Sk's could perhaps control themselves and therefore reduce their dps potential...don't matter since they'll die and reduce it anyway. My solution is to simply sit back, stop wrestling with aggro with another tank - and having my rescues and power down for when I really need it - and enjoy the show and the break.

[Uggli]

The epic life tap hate mod only works when the weapon procs.  It puts on a self buff that grants the hate mod.  You don't really have a lot of control over that, and most times you can't really save your taps for when/if it fires when you need.  So while nice, it's not a huge effect for the SK hate gen.

For HP, SK's are the lowest HP'd plate tank.  Every other plate tank will have higher HP with all gear being equal.  Mit/avoid SK's seem to of caught up with TSO.

[LygerT]

around half way through TSO progression an SK is almost equal with you in avoidance, they will still be slightly lower in health though but not much.

[Bruener]

Easy solution....Link the SK if he keeps drawing too much agro and is not tanking.  No SK will pull hate over a Guard that is buffed for hate if they have Link on them and are not hitting Sac everytime it is up.  I am sorry that you play with a SK that can't ask for the right buffs or can't control grabbing agro but that certainly seems like a poor reason to quit.  Guards are still the premier raid MT.  They take hits better than any tank.  Where they are ahead in survivability the other tanks are ahead in agro.  As content becomes trivialized agro becomes king since all tanks head for the same curves and healers start healing better, gear makes things easier, etc.  That doesn't change the fact that on progression mobs you are still going to want the tank that is going to take the hits the best.

Now, the next question should be asked and that is how good is that tank that replaced you?  Guards still have to fight for their MT spot, its not like RoK where just because you are a Guard and have your mythical no other tank is going to compare.  There are some pretty good SKs over there on Oasis that have seasoned through-out the game since launch that finally so the fixes to their classes they needed.  Maybe you just got out-classed.

Nothing worse than having to sit in the back-seat in previous expansions while Guards were all driving and half of them were not doing the job that skilled players of the other tank classes could do.

[RafaelSmith]

Bruener wrote:

Easy solution....Link the SK if he keeps drawing too much agro and is not tanking. No SK will pull hate over a Guard that is buffed for hate if they have Link on them and are not hitting Sac everytime it is up. I am sorry that you play with a SK that can't ask for the right buffs or can't control grabbing agro but that certainly seems like a poor reason to quit. Guards are still the premier raid MT. They take hits better than any tank. Where they are ahead in survivability the other tanks are ahead in agro. As content becomes trivialized agro becomes king since all tanks head for the same curves and healers start healing better, gear makes things easier, etc. That doesn't change the fact that on progression mobs you are still going to want the tank that is going to take the hits the best.

Now, the next question should be asked and that is how good is that tank that replaced you? Guards still have to fight for their MT spot, its not like RoK where just because you are a Guard and have your mythical no other tank is going to compare. There are some pretty good SKs over there on Oasis that have seasoned through-out the game since launch that finally so the fixes to their classes they needed. Maybe you just got out-classed.

Nothing worse than having to sit in the back-seat in previous expansions while Guards were all driving and half of them were not doing the job that skilled players of the other tank classes could do.

You all told me I had no business posting in SK forums....so I stopped.

Why can't you do the same?. 

[LygerT]

or the SK can use arts that don't draw so much hate, it would be like me hitting insolent gibe every time it was up just for the added 2k AE damage and then requesting that i "need" a link because i'm being stupid. problem is SKs have to cut out almost 1/3 of their abilities to be able to manage their own hate.

too bad most will continue to refuse to do that just because the whack a mole buttons are lit.. most of the real DPS classes are already linked and most raids only run 1 coercer so you risk more people just so a tank can turn out an insignificant amount more DPS.

[RafaelSmith]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

or the SK can use arts that don't draw so much hate, it would be like me hitting insolent gibe every time it was up just for the added 2k AE damage and then requesting that i "need" a link because i'm being stupid. problem is SKs have to cut out almost 1/3 of their abilities to be able to manage their own hate.

too bad most will continue to refuse to do that just because the whack a mole buttons are lit.. most of the real DPS classes are already linked and most raids only run 1 coercer so you risk more people just so a tank can turn out an insignificant amount more DPS.

The sad part is that when I am not the MT and SK is short of popping reinforcements/rescue I can spam spam spam every button that lights up..beit CA, Taunt or CA+Threat and never pull aggro and if im lucky I show up on the parse.

[Bruener]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

or the SK can use arts that don't draw so much hate, it would be like me hitting insolent gibe every time it was up just for the added 2k AE damage and then requesting that i "need" a link because i'm being stupid. problem is SKs have to cut out almost 1/3 of their abilities to be able to manage their own hate.

too bad most will continue to refuse to do that just because the whack a mole buttons are lit.. most of the real DPS classes are already linked and most raids only run 1 coercer so you risk more people just so a tank can turn out an insignificant amount more DPS.

As long as a SK does not have hate transfers on him honestly they will not draw agro from a tank that is completely buffed for hate gain and hate transfers.  Most likely they have the SK riding OT with hate transfers and hate buffs on him.  Also, tell the SK to take off the Choker if he is wearing one.  The DPS gain from the choker is not worth the hate gain that comes from constantly lifetapping the offset of the damage done by the choker.  Is the SK wearing JoA too?  Again item like choker where it can cause a lot of hate because the SK is healing himself while the proc is up, not to mention the +hate gain on the item.

Of course, any good SK knows what they can use and when.  If your problem is because he is pulling hate on Palace trash, who gives a crap.  Most likely he is at that point equipped full DPS with his choker and JoA on...and honestly if he gets hate who really cares as long as he can keep the mob turned the right way.  Still, as a Guard are you DW'ing on that trash, do you equip a choker and JoA and go full bore offensive....because you do realize you can right?

As said earlier though, a good SK will know what they can use and when, hard fights a good player is not going to risk wiping the raid just so they can squeak out a small amount more dps or so that they can pull agro to show off....although for some reason my DPS classes are taking a while to learn this with the Signet of Betrayel.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

SKs can control their aggro quite easily if they want to in my opinion (and experience). Its rare that they will pull hate off a buffed MT if they don't want to...even when out-DPSing the MT by a fair margin.

Sounds like your SK is literally not "cooperating" if aggro is being yanked that often. Needs a good talking to by the raid leader most likely if his role is supposed to be OT (or "extra"/"DPS"). Might not matter on trash, or easy encounters...but there is no reason to make everyone else's lives more difficult (or short) by the OT grabbing aggro at innoportune times. 

Opening early with DM/DT/taunt cycles might snap aggro, as would position based abilities anytime obviously (Sacrament, Sneering Assault or Rescue)...nothing else really would. Worse case, if aggro does get jacked...SKs can also Feign Death if they really don't want to keep it.

Sounds like your OT was purposely messing with you imo. I'd be sceptical if after even 1 or 2 aggro yanks, and reading/knowing his own abilities, that it wouldn't be clear which abilities to use, and which not to use, in order to keep aggro where its supposed to be (on the MT).

[LygerT]

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

or the SK can use arts that don't draw so much hate, it would be like me hitting insolent gibe every time it was up just for the added 2k AE damage and then requesting that i "need" a link because i'm being stupid. problem is SKs have to cut out almost 1/3 of their abilities to be able to manage their own hate.

too bad most will continue to refuse to do that just because the whack a mole buttons are lit.. most of the real DPS classes are already linked and most raids only run 1 coercer so you risk more people just so a tank can turn out an insignificant amount more DPS.

The sad part is that when I am not the MT and SK is short of popping reinforcements/rescue I can spam spam spam every button that lights up..beit CA, Taunt or CA+Threat and never pull aggro and if im lucky I show up on the parse.

if you swap positions and your DPS is still significantly lower than his then your issue is you need to always realize DPS= aggro, always has. not everyone is an expert at maximizing DPS but you just need to ask the right questions from someone who knows.

SKs can outparse in certain situations but on single target consistently with decent tank buffs(not in the caster group) then your parses should be fairly close. if they're not then you probably should re-examine your playstyle and adjust to the game.

i did have high hopes that with the now scrapped tank revamp that there would have been more choice to tank defensively and maintain aggro at the cost of DPS, unfortunately the whole thing went too far in the direction of removing the ability to choose stances and nerfing ALL tank DPS (yes, i didn't really notice any gains after the nerfs to the other arts, especially since our CAs are effing weaksauce..).

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:

Sounds like your OT was purposely messing with you imo. I'd be sceptical if after even 1 or 2 aggro yanks, and reading/knowing his own abilities, that it wouldn't be clear which abilities to use, and which not to use, in order to keep aggro where its supposed to be (on the MT).

a fair amount of SKs that i see tend to continue to do it while putting out much less hate than the MT, telling me that there is a fair amount of SKs who have no clue what they are doing or are illiterate or both. i haven't grouped on my SK yet but the descriptions seem pretty straight forward to me, even if they weren't you would tend to think after hitting sacrament "hey, i always get aggro after i hit this spell.." but it continues time after time as if it is a game of patience to see when the tank will snap or let him die or blow the hell up because the mob frontals the raid when it flips to the dummy flanking "OT".

[Rahatmattata]

EverAfterIt wrote:

 So why are there not more SK MT's?

For one, in my experience, they cannot take the hits. Most SK's I think lack the avoidence that a Guard can attain and utilize more effectively. SK's can have as much or more HP, they can get as much Mitigation, similiar everything, but they get shafted on decent avoidence. So, as far as I can tell, they are hate generating machines, but wrapped in a hard plastic coating. Again, I might be wrong, but I see what I see.

I don't know all of the shadowknight buffs and AA, but they can get the same avoidance. We have a buff that gives us another 29 defense... but that's raidwide anyway. They can use the same shields we can, and while we do have +shield effectiveness that gives us a few tenths of a percent of block, I believe crusaders get similar in TSO line.

SK has lower HP because we have a 1,024 HP buff which can be higher with AA, and a stamina buff. All or most pieces of TSO set gear has 300 hp, although the stamina probably varies between guard and sk on some pieces.

They can get equal mitigation yes, but we have 2 temp mit buffs with a fairly decent duration and recast, and the option to get more mit bonus from dstance via AA. Our wall of armor temp buff can be enhanced with longer duration, more mit, and more block.

Self buffed comparison, I think the 2 classes are about equal defensively with the SK behind in HP by one or two thousand. In combat with group buffs and temp buffs going, we also have stoneskins, immobilize which can be useful on epics when paired with Block, Tower of Stone, 20% dodge temp buff. Not to mention Sentry Watch to easily save a group member from a memwipe or something which in turn helps keep you alive, and 3 avoidance checks/intercepts for group members again, helping them stay alive which keeps you alive (although another fighter probably has their avoid on us canceling one of ours).

I have a SK friend and we have been going on some raids together with him as OT and it has actually been working out really well. It seems natural... I tank mobs and he doesn't get all [Removed for Content] on me, and he snaps up any adds and is right there to catch the mob and keep it together if I go down.

[RafaelSmith]

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

if you swap positions and your DPS is still significantly lower than his then your issue is you need to always realize DPS= aggro, always has. not everyone is an expert at maximizing DPS but you just need to ask the right questions from someone who knows.

SKs can outparse in certain situations but on single target consistently with decent tank buffs(not in the caster group) then your parses should be fairly close. if they're not then you probably should re-examine your playstyle and adjust to the game.

Sadly, our raidforce is far from being optimal.........we barely have what it takes to properly buff a single tank let alone both...... And since our SK is the better player, better geared, etc we use him at MT.......so I do end up in the caster group most of the time.

And when I have been tasked to tank or OT something important, I have tried to go DPS and sadly only 1 or 2 of our healers can handle that. 

I just do not have the gear to allow me maximize my DPS while tanking.

To put things in perspective.....our Wizards on a good day top out at 6k and  I get compliments when I top 4k. 

As for the revamp.....I am glad it was scrapped.....it was a bad idea....badly implemented and would have led to a very boring game.

[LygerT]

part of that problem is the spread of the game as it ages. you have the spread from DPS to tank and you have the spread from casually geared player to hardcore raider. as the game progresses each of those areas gets more wide spread and harder to balance.

if you think it's bad now, well i just hope they can come up with some very creative ideas for the future..

most of your issues do seem to come from group makeup though. its not always easy to mix a decent tank and DPS with a poor healer because then you have to adjust and then the DPS has to adjust down just because of that 1-2 people. tanks and healers are the backbone to any group. i may have given up tanking for now but i still am part of that backbone to a raid.

i was your MT defiler for the raid where you got your mythical.