Why do some people nto see Necromancer issues as a whole?

[Compas]

While this question is not directed at the community as a whole there are many Necromancers out there who only see one side of this multifaceted problem that the Summoner classes and especially the necromancer class suffers from quite  a few mechanics and functional problems. Most of this treaties will be covering Raid situations but alot of the problems apply or are even compunded in group and solo settings.

The pets A.I. leave so much to be desired there are times i will parse 10-12 k in Palace of the anchient one; my pet is sitting next to me casting away gettting full advantage of POTM and POM, other times i am streatching to hit 6=8k with my pet having run off to Djibouti with no line of sight to the mob. where if i even thionk of using the scout pet i have to position my self behind the mob only to have him run him self out of power in 3 sec flat and then move to the mobs front then dies to one of 20 frontal Aoe's that mobs seem to have. and there is the completetly useless void pet that is an END LINE ability.....

Gear is just aweful for us and has the smallest impact on our pets, once again its a game mechanics issue all our life tap spells only gain 50% bonus from spell damage same with the pet so all that gear only has 50% effect for two of the pets spells then any ao3 spells which all teh caster pet spells are only gain 30% of the spell damge bonus, so all the "awesome" power flux 3 gear that give 115 spell damage to the pet to start off only give 38.8 I'll round to 39 spell damage to the caster pet not counting the addtional 50% reduced effectiveness on the life taps.

The swarm pets are not scaling properly are incredibly slow casting and it seems are mad out of glass, the whole mechanic needs to be reworked eitehr into a buff that we proc or they need to gain bonuses from the pet gear , maybe or instant cast with fairly long recast timmers or amke teh pets aoe immune i am nto sure nor do i pretend to have the panacea solution to this very underdeveloped and poor impliment mechanic

The vampirism spell is awful and is bad no matter what anyone says please stop, jsut stop trying to make it seem like it evne worth being in you spell book. enough said on that issue.

Lifeburn our great damage "effect" is harder to pull off properly then putting Voltron together, neeed bolster, jcap, ritual of alacrity helps, updeat tempo, harmonization,dispatch,spell rebuff and  a healer on the ball, then lifeburn actually makes some difference in raid mobs hp, otherwise it will often times be a waste and actually drop your raids over all dps.

Hearts/shards are worthless between the power procing items put into the game, people actally having learned power management and the slow to low return they give plus the tinkered manastones have turned them into a joke, of utility.While our debuffs are vertually non existant our buff with teh noted exception of the two temporary spells gained are very insignificant. Feign death was once  auseful ability only to have it stripped away with tinkering, and our one shinning light our res is made really obsolete with dirges not only having res but the ability to take away the res debuff you get.

Our AA's from the KOS and even some from the EOF lines are very lackluster/badly designed, where all the other classes got 100% bonuses from their aa's we got the itemization issue revisited of its good for the pet but does nothign for the caster oh its good for the caster.... does nothing for the pet, and then implosion;  who ever thought that one up really should be steralized so they do not propoage, lets take the fundimental componet for a class then kill it for little to no gain....... But ultimatly the bonuses that are applyed are relisitically only percentages of what every other class( oh the conjurer also got screwed where) recieved.

And of course teh lovley itemiztion problem that is slowly being recified. But still exists, and on top of the problem the gear that they creat for the sumoner classes doesn't even work right in some instances due to a failure to review item effect stacking and conflicts due to making gear very subpar for the caster so the pet can gain a minor improvment. There are multiple threads on this topic and repeat ad nausium please go take a look for your self.

Yes you love playing your necro, yes you are good/great at it, heck you even have most of the top end gear in the game, so what; you are a detriment to your raid force and group as a comparably equipt illusionist/ coercer or brigand/ swash can match or exceed your damage potential (which is an itemization problem sinve they are faster casters they can get greater advantage out of all the new proc gear leaving the medium speed casting classes in the dust) pluse add significant debuffs or buffs to a group/raid. I am nto saying its the end of the world or that we all should go rertoll our class I just want people to be aware there are issues, and even deveoplers have acknowledged there are issues and that as a community we need to press on them to find solutions and seek redress on these issues every chance we get. Thank you for your time.

Compas

80 Necromacer

Unrest

Semper Fortis

[Mew]

We care.  We really do.  SOE development does not.  The new holy trinity is guardian, assassin, templar.

[Cly]

Compas wrote:

, and even deveoplers have acknowledged there are issues and that as a community we need to press on them to find solutions and seek redress on these issues every chance we get.

Where?

I have never seen a developer say something on our issues.

[Sabutai]

Clywd wrote:

Compas wrote:

, and even deveoplers have acknowledged there are issues and that as a community we need to press on them to find solutions and seek redress on these issues every chance we get.

Where?

I have never seen a developer say something on our issues.

happened once a long time ago when we kept pestering and pestering but it was the biggest vague post I've ever seen, and didn't really even address anything other than to say uh yea we see it, no promise of fixing it just knowing there was a problem.  I believe they burdened poor fyreflight with the problem, and has as far not really fixed it cause you can't fix the class issue with gear.

[Firecracker]

I have idea and my idea was this:

For all of us who love our Necros and know that our class needs something done with it now and not another year from now.  I would perhaps suggest us players who love our necros, cancel your acct and not play for a day or even two days might get them to noticed then how many of us are not happy. Two days would so kill me to not play for I do love this game but hate what has happened to my necro.

I know I have been tempted for I am not impressed with the parses I keep seeing with my necro of late.

PS: If this isn't allowed, I am sorry & can be deleted if needed.

[Garlin1]

Considering you pay for a month at a time and cancelling an account for 2-3 days does nothing but make someone lose 2-3 days of that month they paid for wouldn't a thing.  Not to mention I highly doubt "Hey Sony, make the changes we want now, or we will cancel our accounts" would motivate anyone to lift a finger in the direction you wish things to go. 

If you think there is an issue with your class document it.  Reproduce it tons of times.  Show valid proof that your class is horrible compared to other classes or your spells are not what they should be, or whatever the problem you see in the class.  Instead of logging into the forums day in and day out (not targeted at you, just the general necro population in a whole) saying "Fix necros" show WHAT needs fixed.  Get together some data (parses etc whatever) post em.

I understand people have their views.  Everyone expects their class to do what "they" want them to do.  I've been with necros since they game started.  I've seen the class go through many changes.  Some good some bad.  I've had to relearn the class a few times cause of it.  Through the pages of pages of complaints on EVERY class board its the same thing "My X spell doesn't do enough damage, my pets die to quick, my foot hurts"  come on. 

I suppose my rant is over.  Just try to put together actual info for the devs to see other then complain.  Much like anywhere, complaining only gets old and people stop listening.  If I was a dev, and all I saw on the necro boards was people crying about their class, I would probably ignore it.

[Firecracker]

Just so some understand what I mean by canceling you acct. OK, you go into acct options and put a stop to them billing what ever card you have for next time you get billed.  I know there is normally remaining days left on your current sub so finish it out and wait a day or two before you renew it is what I meant. 

As for showing proof there has been many who have.  There has even been other classes even saying stuff about the summoners needing to be fixed. I know this that of the ones who say we are fine are the ones marjority of time are saying put such & such class in our group and we just fine. I don't agree with that and our TSO line was suppose to be way to balance us out? As a soloing necro I couldn't ask for more there but in a group/raid makeup we have to be in the right type group to make it work. Inless you was lucky enough to get in a raiding guild before the bomb on nercos then most of us necros don't even get a chance to raid or really have beg to let us bring our necro because somehow or another been playing another class to even get to raid in hopes one time I might get to bring my necro.

I love this game and have no real plans to quit this game but my necro is and will always be favorite class to play even if I have solo to enjoy it with my class.

[Germs666]

The sad thing is that the devs don't even bother to read the necro forums. When was the last time you've even seen a dev reply to any of all the insightful tips, critiques and even research players volunteer? Not to mention our broken, bugged or totally useless spells or AA line choices.

I personally don't think it's in Sony's budget to give a crap about us since no devs even play this class.

The ONLY way to get your necro feedback read is to post in the assassin forums. It's probably against TOS but if you really want to make a point post there. The only time I've ever got a devs response (actually 2 on one thread!) is by posting there.

[LazyPurp]

HI Guys, I'm impressed to see how many of you that are still here, and so many new too.

The only way to get them to notice us in a thread, is to post any where, but here in the Necro section. I heard a rumor there is a new sheriff in town. I reactivated my account that I canceled back in Oct. 2008, because Necro's concerns, as well as other mages concerns, have gone ignored. I came back in with the hope that a "red name" will actually take our concerns seriously. We have had many threads address our class issues in the past. One of the best imo was "Summoner's cannot use +crit gear & +spell dmg gear to affect 100% of their offensive spells" over 361 posts. Some of the finest Necro's and mages posted excellent information in that thread. Sadly, when a bunch of started mocking Aeralik, it was deleted. We did managed a few responses from Aeralik in that thread.

Any how I see this under Aeralik's name now in his sig:

"Chris KozakNot the lead Mechanics Programmer/Designer, Everquest II"

My point is this, we have a small ray of hope in Kirstie. We are still going to be ignored for months, because of the fighter revamp and other mishaps out there. Hopefully, when the dust settles on their current issues, if we are still here, the new sheriff will enact some quality changes. I hope those changes will make our class desired in groups, as well as, raids once again.

I hope one of you can make a nice thread, maybe one that could catch the attention of Kirstie, or at least be stickied here in this section, as an easy point of reference of known Necro class issues. Best one liner I have read since being back is that the new solo shard quests were put in for Necro's, since they are the least desired for groups/raids.

It made it easy for me to find out, not much has changed since I have been away.

[Tary]

Do any of you raid?If so, please post a parse of what you deal on Zarakon.

I just want to see what you're all parsing.

[Tary]

I figured nobody would post one.*sigh*

[Zapo]

You can find some parses at eq2flames forum in the necro section. But be careful when you post anything there because that forum really earned it's name.

[Mew]

Anyone else notice that the last time an SOE person posted here in the necro forum was Nov 2008 - and that was to slap some wrists and lock down a thread because a couple of folks couldn't play nice together?  Like the bards in EQ1,  I get the feeling that the EQ2 developers just want necro's to go away.

[Tary]

Dedmage wrote:

You mean the giant undead dragon where you spend a lot of time curing, finding the flank, swtiching to adds, and running to one of the pools when your screen turns colors?

What purpose would posting a parse on a highly scripted encounter serve?

That's kinda like asking for a parse on the dragon in VP that falls asleep.

That would be the one, yes.

Because I want to see how high you parse on him.  Most Necros will have a low end of 4k, with a high end of 6k (usually falling between 5.4k and 6k)

[Tary]

Or Xebnok.

One of your parses from Zarakon or Xebnok.  I'd like to see how high you parse on raids to ascertain how well you're performing.  If you're performing poorly, then I can see why you'd complain...that is the point.

[Tary]

Davngr1 wrote:

    soa single encounter will tell you how well off a class is?           

      yea xebnok and gynok are both caster fights and highly scripted fights favor summoners a lil since the pet continues to attack while the summoner is running the script  BUT  the summoenr still needs to care for the pet making sure it's in line of sight and not about to die from an uncured dot.   

  with the right gear and buffs a summoner can do ok dps BUT so can every other class  duh...       summoners need a core change to the class.    if you don't agree you don't understand this game or it's mechanics.

Actually, with the right gear and skill, a Necro can outparse most other classes on those two fights.  Easily...except for a Warlock on Xeb, you might fall under a good Warlock.  But that's not the point.  I want to see how well you parse on those two because, as you said, a Necro should top the parse on Zarakon (can't speak for Conj.'s), and Xeb is a pretty standard fight, so I'd like to see how you stack up to everyone else in your raid force.

That's all I want to see.  I don't care about anything else at the moment, I just want to see where you guys are landing in the realm of DPS.

[Tary]

Dedmage wrote:

Um... maybe if you put the Necro in the scout group with a Dirge and no mage buffs that's how much they parse but a Necro in a raid group that's geared well enough to take on that dragon should be doing 9k to 12k and should [Removed for Content] well be in the Mage group.

On Zarakon?I've yet to see anyone parsing above 7k on that fight.  The running to the pool, dropping adds and all that...

I'd expect ~13k from a Necro on Xebnok, but not anywhere near that on Zarakon.

[Tary]

Davngr1 wrote:

  I'm going to assume you don't play a summoner.

   here's what you seem to be trying to prove to me:   summoner are fine you're just whining about nothing

  here is the reality: pet focus gear and AA have let summoners creep up closer in parse but still leave the class with little or no raid utillity(utillity is not in balance with dmg potential).    necro still loose 50% of +spell dmg to lifetaps.  necros still do very little up front dmg because of dots and thus don't have the *bang* so many other DPS classes enjoy(including conj).   

   if you want to see parses go on EQ2 flames and see what you can find, no one is going to post sub-par parses to satisfy another gamers curiosity.    if you where a game dev offering class redemption then sure i and many others would jump at the chance to post parses from any mob you asked and zw to help better assess the situation.

Show me where I've tried to tell you you're complaining for no reason in this thread, specifically adressing you.  I haven't.  You're making assumptions...erroneous ones.I never mentioned utility in this thread.  I asked for your parses.Evidently Necro's don't need extra DPS...they parse above almost every other class on most fights in raids, which is why I asked for raid parses to prove my point (though I expected to see sub-par Necro's posting theirs, to which I'd respond with my own parses).So, your whole argument (concerning DPS) hinges on the fact that you don't get to see large numbers?  In the end, you deal more DPS, so why does that matter...at all?  In SOLO and GROUP formats, it matters a bit more (even though I can show you parses of a Necro in group still beating all other members).  I specifically asked for raid parses.  I even went so far as to ask for parses performed on two raid mobs, which I know to be accessible only by moderately experienced raid guilds.

See how assumptions can throw you completely off course?  Next time, just respond to what people type, and not what you suspect to be the meaning.

[Germs666]

taryth what class/race is your main?

Dark elf assassin?

[Kiara]

Clean it up please, folks.

This thread needs to stay civil.

Aeralik was neither fired nor demoted.

And yes, I do read your forums

[Compas]

Once again a perfect example of my initial post.  Everyone keeps getting hung up on a single side of the problem.

I.E

Summoners do fine /too little dps, then its coems down to gear, groups set up, specific encounters ect.

The pets are fine, or their A.I is aweful, or the gear doesn't effect them or the gear is so miniscule of an effect that its not even worth the personal hit to use it.

Untility eitehr becoimes teh centerpiece or just ignored along the way

its all part of the same package, and this si where people miss the point. Summoners /Necromancers no longer have a role or a identity, we are not top dps, we are not raid/group utility , infact in the case of a necromancer we are a sopong and have to have a group/raid around us to even come close to our potential, where no other class is so dependant on other classes.

There is no direction or vison for the Summoner its been a road of hapstance and random fixes to mages that also happens to have positive/negative impact on the summoner classes all in differenct ways.

Compas

80 Necromancer

Unrest

[Kreagan De'Unerro]

Compas wrote:

Once again a perfect example of my initial post.  Everyone keeps getting hung up on a single side of the problem.

I.E

Summoners do fine /too little dps, then its coems down to gear, groups set up, specific encounters ect.

The pets are fine, or their A.I is aweful, or the gear doesn't effect them or the gear is so miniscule of an effect that its not even worth the personal hit to use it.

Untility eitehr becoimes teh centerpiece or just ignored along the way

its all part of the same package, and this si where people miss the point. Summoners /Necromancers no longer have a role or a identity, we are not top dps, we are not raid/group utility , infact in the case of a necromancer we are a sopong and have to have a group/raid around us to even come close to our potential, where no other class is so dependant on other classes.

There is no direction or vison for the Summoner its been a road of hapstance and random fixes to mages that also happens to have positive/negative impact on the summoner classes all in differenct ways.

Compas

80 Necromancer

Unrest

Apparently you have not played a guardian? I wish I could solo ^^^s with no issues, that were not grey. I wish I could farm KC half as well as a Necro can. I'd be rich.

I wish I did not have to have a dirge in a group that consists of 2+top tier DPS mages or predators.

I use to be in a raid guild that would run 3-4 summoners, cause that is what we had. One conjy would be top4 DPS, while the others would barely make 1/2 her parse.  It is all about how you play your toon, what you do with the tools. Summoners are soloing class who can DPS well when played properly in any setting.

I also play a Troub, which can not do much of anything alone, so I have to dual box with my SK to get quests done efficiently.

...No other class is so dependant on other classes...

LAWLS

[Kharz]

To Jokael's points; I see the upcoming changes as a release for tanking classes. They will not rely so heavily on those classes and other spots will open so that a raid does not require a bard in every group. That being said, with the new changes it will allow the development team new opportunities to add encounters where summoners could prove more useful, hence giving us that raid utility that people hear are clamoring for.

(I'm still with the glass is half full mentality, at least for the immediate future following GU 51-ish)

[Kreagan De'Unerro]

I agree I am anxxious for the agro changes, but that being said I still can not do what other classes can do solo, like a summoner, or a ranger, or a brawler,etc...

We each have our niche, and we all have to understand what that niche is and do it to the best of our ability.

There are alot of classes that can not do anything wihtout other classes, bards for example, have been hurting in the solo department for a very long time.

[Xalmat]

Kharzek wrote:

To Jokael's points; I see the upcoming changes as a release for tanking classes. They will not rely so heavily on those classes and other spots will open so that a raid does not require a bard in every group

Incorrect. At least on a raid, all that does is move the Assassin or Swashbuckler out of the MT group, and permanently cements a Warden instead in their place. The classes that are in the MT group already (Tank, Cleric, Shaman, Coercer, Dirge) will continue to be wanted in the MT group just as much as before.

Which means we go from having a MT-group scout that was receiving MT group DPS buffs, to another DPS class to compete for a DPS raid spot.

And for groups, tanks will still highly desire a Dirge and Enchanter for their defense and DPS buffs, aggro buffs, and mana regen.

Our only saving grace as Summoners is that Sorcerers and Predators might have to back off on their damage output significantly (due to Tanks probably not holding as much aggro) while us Summoners won't have to back off as much.

[Tsunai]

Did a bit of cleaning of non-pertinent posts since Kiara's post (so many already! O_o). Take any personal beefs to PMs please and keep the thread on topic.

[Kiara]

That is enough.

Take the personal bickering and issues elsewhere.

These forums are not the staging grounds for individual wars and further attacks on each other or the moderators, or further trolling will not be permitted.