What role is there for Monks?

[NamaeZero]

We're not the best raid tanks. We're not the best at aggro, single target or group. We're not the best off-tanks, and our DPS is not even close to DPS classes. We're worst at AoE damage by a large margin. So my question is, what role do you see for Monks out in the world of EQ2?

Obviously, there are some things Monks can do well. We have a great raid buff, however it's so good it's a target for being nerfed and one buff does not a role in combat make. Between Invis and FD we can explore areas better, and generally have an easy time soloing and getting from point A to point B even if we've never been there before. But while that's a useful talent, it doesn't make monks unique as anyone can explore if they're careful.

Back when EQ2 opened it seemed like Monks were masters of status conditions, dropping short duration stifles, knockdowns and stuns to weaken even the most powerful foes. Later on though, they rebalanced status conditions to be less useful on Epic mobs and in general decreased the power of controlling status conditions. So my idea for giving Monks back a role in combat is to grant them a portion of their original status dropping power, and maybe add something unique like a grapple move that stuns you but also stuns your foe for the exact same amount of time.

Of course it would have to be balanced with the abilities enchanters have so as not to step on their toes, but we could focus on single target crowd control and leave the enchanters and other CC to deal with everything else.

Does anyone else have an idea for a role Monks could have, since we're kinda stuck without one at the moment?

[Morgane]

As far as I can tell, we are only the choice for you if you want to solo in the game. As you say, we have a nice raid wide buff but now SOE has nerfed it. Even that wasn't enough to get us into most raids. I have trouble keeping aggro off the mages and rangers when tanking and my high avoidance doesn't seem to help me survive much. Perhaps it helps more than I think it does but fact is, my survivablity isn't great in the instances where the mobs hit hard.

I guess all classes can't be desirable in raids but it sure would be nice if we could be considered tanks or dps.... putting us somewhere in between like we are now makes us good for nothing but solo play with the occasional group that can't find a better dps class.

[NamaeZero]

I hear you on that, especially on avoidance not helping. I was walking through an instance the other night that was all grey to me. I just wanted to finish the quest to clear it off my books. I happened to run into an epic mob that was slightly higher level than the rest of the zone, and this put him on the lowest possible edge of green. So he aggroed... 3 attacks later (each for about ~60% of my HP max and no misses) I was toast, and even my FD failed to fool him after he hit me right through Tsunami.

Adding insult to injury after I revived he followed me to the zoneline and killed me again. I'm not saying I should be able to solo an Epic that is still green to me, but the ruthless speed with which he killed me (3 attacks the first time then 2 the second since I had no heal) and the way he blew right through my defenses, even though I was 10 levels higher and reasonably equipped was rather frustrating. I left the instance and I won't be back again. Avoidance sucks when they make mobs that can't miss an all too common experience.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that monks need a role in EQ2, and I'm assuming the other classes that have viable roles won't give them up, which is why we keep getting passed between Tanks and DPS because each group wants to keep their own roles for themselves. so monks need to carve their own niche and find something they can do in combat that defines them and gives them the advantage in certain encounters so they will be needed for them.

[Morgane]

That would be nice but I've kinda lost hope. I've played a Monk for almost two years now and SOE has yet to address the issues. Perhaps they think there IS no issue. Perhaps they always meant for Monks to be a hybrid class best suited for solo play. Who knows? Maybe one day they'll make us more desirable for raids and groups.

For now, I've rolled a Guardian and a Templar (they are both at level 50 at the moment) and figure either one of those will be able to raid and group more effectively. The Monk is still my first love but the class definitely needs something.

[XunSarak]

I have palyed a monk since day one and have loved to play him. Before EoF I raided regurlarly and did most of the pulling and was either MA or OT. In EoF and TSO, I have only raided once and it is even hard to get a group, unless the group either can't find a tank (am last resort) or can't find another DPS. Even then many groups are so low level that expect me to mentor. There is no way that I can get into any of the higher level content much less get higher level gear.

I had 2 monks on different servers one level 76 and one level 80. I still love my monk but I deleted the level 76 monk and rolled an SK and a brigand (both around 45 now). neither is as fun as a monnk was but I gave up hope on SOE.

[Morgane]

XunSarak wrote:

I have palyed a monk since day one and have loved to play him. Before EoF I raided regurlarly and did most of the pulling and was either MA or OT. In EoF and TSO, I have only raided once and it is even hard to get a group, unless the group either can't find a tank (am last resort) or can't find another DPS. Even then many groups are so low level that expect me to mentor. There is no way that I can get into any of the higher level content much less get higher level gear.

I had 2 monks on different servers one level 76 and one level 80. I still love my monk but I deleted the level 76 monk and rolled an SK and a brigand (both around 45 now). neither is as fun as a monnk was but I gave up hope on SOE.

I raided in T1 and T2 RoK raids and was definitely not a "needed class", especially since there was another Monk in the guild who was the main Monk. I did, however, raid quite a bit with this guild but almost never (and when I say almost never, I mean it) got lucky with the loot. In about ten raids I saw one or two things specifically for brawlers. It was frustrating to raid time and time again and see so much loot for Rangers, Mages and plate tanks but so rarely have any brawler loot drop. I dunno if I just had back luck with the RNG or what but it was frustrating to say the least because once I DID manage to get a raid spot, I never saw any gear. I have one or two Fabled items from my brief time as a raider. Had I been Ranger or Mage I might have been able to walk away with five or six pieces of Fabled gear.

Just seems to me like Monks are the red-headed step children in the game. Not only does SOE not make us desirable in raids, but we don't seem to get as many loot drops in raids as the other classes.

Not really whining about it here.... I mean, I think this class is just meant for solo play more than anything else. We do respectable DPS if spec'd right and geared well we can tank some instances (higher content is tough if not impossible for most of us) but we don't do either of those things so well that we will be sought-after.

[Junaru]

Well I'm better off them most, not as well off as others but still manage to tank tSO instances. Granted group mobs are a pain and often the Warlock in my guild often dies but over all I'm happy with groups. I wish SOE would make Dragon Rage group/AoE.

As for raiding. I've proven my worth to my guild many times over. To the point of where SOE could make me completely worthless and they would still take me. But thats my status/guild, most Monks are sitting on the ropes waiting to get knocked off and I doubt SOE's Fighter Reblance Part 2 is going to fix us.

[githyanki]

I really feel for the monks who do not have the raid gear and try to tank in tso.   This is not i'm better or whatever post so please dont take it that way.   Since there is a stigma attached to brawlers that we can't tank and/or dont dps well that makes it very hard for us to grab raid spots or needed group runs into what the casual player would consider challenging.    Let me just kinda spout for a minute about my exp and how i got into a raid spot with my guild and maybe that will help ya'll make your way up the foodchain.  

Playing a monk well means doing all the really tedious things that other tank classes dont have to do.    Yes we can dps decently like an afk brigand or maybe a half asleep swashy when our specials are up.    So that means you have to really learn to time your attacks and never be asleep at the wheel in raids or groups.    God forbid if you don't have a hate transfer and get to tank since our aoe agro is the weakest of the fighters.     So get used to tab targetting thru mobs and looking to see if any of them peeled off to smack a squishy/healer etc etc.   You need to get very used to proper group setups if you are tanking.    You will need the advantage that two healers and a dirge give you in order to do the same task an equal geared non raiding plate tank gets.     Learn the mechanics of tab and f8 key for targetting and make sure they become second nature.   Basically you need to outhussle your way into groups.     Learn the machanics of turning mobs for scouts and frontal aoe's.     Once again outhussle means your name gets out there that yeah he's a monk but he doesn't suck.

Breaking into a raid guild is all about learning the simple stuff first.   Yes you are a tank and should go after tank gear.   Nothing makes me more upset then to be on an alt and see a monk in  a group that will not tank because they either want to look good in a gi or think they are only a dps class.    If you think this and play a monk save the rest of us the trouble and just delete your toon.    You drag the rest us down and reinforce the brawler can't tank mindset.   So once you have gotten your name out there that you are competant with your class start asking around on your server for a guild that does casual raiding.    Maybe they already have a brawler...maybe they have no idea of what you can do or how you can benefit a raid when the tank goes down and you stand up rip the mob and give them time to get their mt back up.   Once again outhussle the other guy or the guild offtank and you become needed.    Do not be cocky or stupid about it.    I prefer the reply ..."..hey great job gang glad i could help do my thing there".    With the current monk skill set we fit the omg tank just died role.    I prefer to use tsunami first then hit peel so we dont die while switching stances putting up self magic ward etc etc.    Also gives you time to hit vent talk key and let the healers know its ok not freak out and send heals your way when tsunami goes down.   Turn the mob away from the raid hit root stance drop rescue when peel runs out and you should be able to stand for 15ish more seconds while they bring up the mt again. 

Gear will come in time.    Be patient since brawler itemization blows and upgrades outside of vp are few and far between.   I keep almost two full boxes of gear on me at all times.   All manner of resist gear tank stuff and dps stuff.   Best thing about a monk however is you can balance between dps and tank high miti stuff and have a basic go to gear setup.   And going from dps to tank is as simple as switching stances which should be on your hotbar   and dropping the self health eating haste buff.   Remember learn the basics hussle your way into a raid spot dont be a drama queen and eventually even if soe nerfs the monk class into basic trash your guild will still want you just because you are the best [Removed for Content] monk they have ever seen.

[scruffylookin]

For what it's worth....

My wife and I have tried almost every duo combo you can think of. We've played two necros (which were good), we've played a warden/zerk, we've tried assassin/pally and assassin/SK. We've even tried two wizards and two assassins.

We've had good results with many of the duos, even the ones that don't seem very logical.

Not too long ago, we used our last character slots to create a Paladin/Monk duo, just to play around with.

Wow.

As far as duoing, those two are about the perfect mix of healing/dps/tanking. No one role is over-powered, but none are under-powered.

My Pally and her Monk are already up to levels 69 and 70. They're handling mobs and even dungeons that were complete death-traps to our other duos.... AND it's been great fun. We'll trade agro when needed, throw out a heal when needed, or just hit them with every point of damage we can throw at them.

So, yeah, Monks are really struggling in most areas... but if you happen to like duoing, find you a pally. It'll be a long time before we go back to our other toons... even our mains. I guess technically, they've now claimed the title of "main."

[XunSarak]

When raiding I was one of the first members of one of the largest and best raid guilds on Butcherblock. I always had a role and never considered myself any kind of drag on the group. I left because I could no longer play more than a couple hours a week and woulkd not be able to keep up with the level progression of the guild members and DKP.

I have raided after that, some pickup and some with friends but when it came to the last named in a high level raid (for our level) or we were the first to encounter it, I was almost always traded for a rogue, mezzer or another healer.

I know my character, CA timing, and roles. I have two armor and jewlery sets, each has few fabled pieces but both are mostly legendary, one for tanking and one for DPS. I am about half masters and half adept III atm. I also have two AA specs (142 pts) , one for tanking and one for DPS. I have always done my job very well. But as soon as I hit mid 70 levels, no more raids and very few groups. Have been 80 for several months and the same thing, no raids (even pickup) (got into a few raids but always asked to leave when more rogues or healers wanted to join) and few groups. I can understand, the raid was doing everything it could to be sussessful and a monk was just a "not necessary" part. Or insult me by asking how much it is worth to stay (usually a 10p min).

If I sound [Removed for Content], I am! Through the years of being the first nerfed and the last (mostly never) to be "balanced" (HA) I have had it. There is almost no content left that I am able to solo or duo. I have lost hope that SOE will actually fix anything with the class.

[krc333]

From someone that has played EQ2 since launch, but isn’t hardcore (I don’t raid and I play in spurts) the monk is prefect. I like the fact that I can do a little of everything (heal, FD, Group FD, Invis, haste buff, Dev Fist) because it makes for soloing so much easier which is what I do almost 75% of the time. Granted the flipside is that we don’t do any one thing that well, but I can tank just fine and add decent DPS.

 

What I wished they would do is setup via gear or aa’s a way to clearly make your monk built for tanking or DPS. I personally don’t care for tanking but I would love to be known as support DPS.

[Aull]

githyanki wrote:

I really feel for the monks who do not have the raid gear and try to tank in tso.   This is not i'm better or whatever post so please dont take it that way.   Since there is a stigma attached to brawlers that we can't tank and/or dont dps well that makes it very hard for us to grab raid spots or needed group runs into what the casual player would consider challenging.    Let me just kinda spout for a minute about my exp and how i got into a raid spot with my guild and maybe that will help ya'll make your way up the foodchain.  

Playing a monk well means doing all the really tedious things that other tank classes dont have to do.    Yes we can dps decently like an afk brigand or maybe a half asleep swashy when our specials are up.    So that means you have to really learn to time your attacks and never be asleep at the wheel in raids or groups.    God forbid if you don't have a hate transfer and get to tank since our aoe agro is the weakest of the fighters.     So get used to tab targetting thru mobs and looking to see if any of them peeled off to smack a squishy/healer etc etc.   You need to get very used to proper group setups if you are tanking.    You will need the advantage that two healers and a dirge give you in order to do the same task an equal geared non raiding plate tank gets.     Learn the mechanics of tab and f8 key for targetting and make sure they become second nature.   Basically you need to outhussle your way into groups.     Learn the machanics of turning mobs for scouts and frontal aoe's.     Once again outhussle means your name gets out there that yeah he's a monk but he doesn't suck.

Breaking into a raid guild is all about learning the simple stuff first.   Yes you are a tank and should go after tank gear.   Nothing makes me more upset then to be on an alt and see a monk in  a group that will not tank because they either want to look good in a gi or think they are only a dps class.    If you think this and play a monk save the rest of us the trouble and just delete your toon.    You drag the rest us down and reinforce the brawler can't tank mindset.   So once you have gotten your name out there that you are competant with your class start asking around on your server for a guild that does casual raiding.    Maybe they already have a brawler...maybe they have no idea of what you can do or how you can benefit a raid when the tank goes down and you stand up rip the mob and give them time to get their mt back up.   Once again outhussle the other guy or the guild offtank and you become needed.    Do not be cocky or stupid about it.    I prefer the reply ..."..hey great job gang glad i could help do my thing there".    With the current monk skill set we fit the omg tank just died role.    I prefer to use tsunami first then hit peel so we dont die while switching stances putting up self magic ward etc etc.    Also gives you time to hit vent talk key and let the healers know its ok not freak out and send heals your way when tsunami goes down.   Turn the mob away from the raid hit root stance drop rescue when peel runs out and you should be able to stand for 15ish more seconds while they bring up the mt again. 

Gear will come in time.    Be patient since brawler itemization blows and upgrades outside of vp are few and far between.   I keep almost two full boxes of gear on me at all times.   All manner of resist gear tank stuff and dps stuff.   Best thing about a monk however is you can balance between dps and tank high miti stuff and have a basic go to gear setup.   And going from dps to tank is as simple as switching stances which should be on your hotbar   and dropping the self health eating haste buff.   Remember learn the basics hussle your way into a raid spot dont be a drama queen and eventually even if soe nerfs the monk class into basic trash your guild will still want you just because you are the best [Removed for Content] monk they have ever seen.

This post kicks major axs imho. I started highlighting but honestly the entire post is very accurate. Well done and stated.

[cornbreadfed]

I'm a new player (just finished trial and subscribed) and this thread is informative, but in a depressing way.

I have a Froglok Monk that I enjoy a LOT! His stances and movements are great. He hasn't reached lvl 20 yet, so I/he are still newbs. So far seems to be a great character, and I've been looking fwd to leveling him so I can group and eventually raid.

Oh well...it seems his future is pretty grim for group play. 

[githyanki]

Nah monks are great in just about any group to be honest. They have many many little tricks that you pick up as you go. With decent weapons with the same delay and good aa builds you will compete with scouts as you lvl up and beat the ones that are slacking. For tanking a monks miti is gonna be your hardest obstacle to overcome in a group and hate especially as you burn thru the lvls. But with careful pulling and a bit of crazy..every good monk i have ever seen really thinks they are conan btw....you will get the job done. Just be careful of yellow and above mobs as hey will hit you harder. Besides that find a solid brawler of a higher lvl and see what good things they can show you about your class. Some things are very intuitive...some not as much. Enjoy the class learn some basic tank 101 things and see how far you can push the envelope.

[Aull]

I would rate monks as #2 everyday norrath group tank just for the speed at which they can move a group if played well. I think monks offer more to a group than any of the 5 other fighters. They can of course tank, off tank, have a huge heal/cure, and nice dps. Again the only area they lack would be ae aggro. Even that can be over come if the other groupies understand how the monk works. This seems to be an issue with most other players is that they do not really understand what other classes strengths and weakness are. I don't know them all either but I do have a decent knowledge of them.

Cornbreadfed try not to be to discouraged by what is posted on the forums. I find it even for myself easy to get a dark cloud following me after I read some of the posts in the forums. Every class will have some set backs while others seem to be getting the world handed to them. Others will excel in certain areas where others will lack. I can live with that. My understanding is that a person should play what they enjoy. If a person doesn't enjoy a class they will never bloom into a better player because of the lack of interest. Seven of my close freinds play monks. They love the class.

[cornbreadfed]

Good info again folks!

 Thanks Aull for your reply about the forums. It certainly is good advice to keep forum postings "in perspective".

[Couching]

Aull wrote:

I would rate monks as #2 everyday norrath group tank just for the speed at which they can move a group if played well. I think monks offer more to a group than any of the 5 other fighters. They can of course tank, off tank, have a huge heal/cure, and nice dps. Again the only area they lack would be ae aggro. Even that can be over come if the other groupies understand how the monk works. This seems to be an issue with most other players is that they do not really understand what other classes strengths and weakness are. I don't know them all either but I do have a decent knowledge of them.

Cornbreadfed try not to be to discouraged by what is posted on the forums. I find it even for myself easy to get a dark cloud following me after I read some of the posts in the forums. Every class will have some set backs while others seem to be getting the world handed to them. Others will excel in certain areas where others will lack. I can live with that. My understanding is that a person should play what they enjoy. If a person doesn't enjoy a class they will never bloom into a better player because of the lack of interest. Seven of my close freinds play monks. They love the class.

Number two tank you want to group with? I am surprised and your reasons are not solid in my opinion.

Maybe it's because you don't know how powerful other fighters are or it's because you haven't tried harder instances.

I have done most hard instances and I can feel how broken the classes balance is in TSO. It's not just fighters. The class balance of healers is broken as well.

For easy instances and trash cleaning:

Zerker and SK are best. Their aoe dps/agro is insane. They can pull 10k+ dps on multiple mobs.

Guardian and bruiser are second tier on aoe damage and aoe agro.

Monk is the worst. Worst in aoe damage and aoe agro.

For hard instance and named fight: It is so annoyed that in most hard instances, curable or incurable stifles and stuns are everywhere. You got stifled on pull and it's a nightmare for monk to keep aoe agro. When you are fighting named, boom, incurable aoe stifle and adds inc at same time. Monk is totally doom in agro since we don't have aoe auto attack as warrior and crusader nor closed mind as bruiser. 

Guardian and Bruiser are the best. Guardian mythical effect is so handy in those hard instance and named fight. Not to say bruiser, the ownage close mind.

The second tier is zerker and sk. 100% aoe auto attack is nough said. Zerker can keep aoe agro much easier even stifled. SK has less percentage in aoe attack but they have aoe snap agro tools.They can get mobs back fast enough when they are not stifled.

Monk is worst again. We don't have closed mind as bruiser nor aoe snap agro tools. When adds coming with aoe stifle, we are totally doomed.

Besides, it is one of the worst idea to have two fighters in TSO groups. You can still make it on some instances but you are making your life harder. I can't see why you want to have a monk in the group when you already have a tank. I prefer two healers or two real dpsers or two utility classes such as bard and enchanter but not two fighters.

All in all, monk needs a fix in aoe agro and we need something unique as a tank. We had tsunami. Now, almost every class gets a similar or even better one  and they still have their unique skill such as closed mind, reinforcement, tower stone, 100% aoe auto attack, etc.

PS: I don't comment Pal since amend is going to changed.

[githyanki]

Yep monks aoe agro is not what i would call stellar by any means. But if you know the encounter is coming you can still be rdy for stifles and what not on pull. I carry fear and stifle signets on me all the time just in case and we can self cure all but uncurable effects every few minutes even when feared. For encounters i know i save crane flock and as many of aoe effects as my group will wait for me to regen. With the next two rounds of fighter fixes en route i'm hoping that i wont have to be inventive to be on an even playing field and pray my group is kind to me on big aoe encounters. And even on mobs that i know are gonna fear me quite rapidly dont forget to use your root stance and walk...think gas passer in re2..to make sure you keep your toon and then the encounter under control.

[Couching]

Any class can have signets as well. They can do whatever you said in your post and they have unique skills that we don't have.

Our self cure was nice but too many incurable effects in this expansion and make it semi-obsolete.

We need a fix in aoe agro and we need an unique and useful skill that helps us in tanking.

[Aull]

I will admit that I haven't done any of the tso instances to say anything about how good or bad some classes have it since launch. Couching I have read many of your posts and haved relied on any info you have given and I will say you are very accurate with all you have posted in the past. I will not doubt you now my friend. I would honestly say that you are probably a much better player than me as well.

I am not posting here trying to make any monk think that everything is good with the monk class. Monks obviously have issues. I am mainly stating that I personally think a well played monk can do all I have state before.

You have done this much longer than I have Couching and you have the upper hand in experience. Again I have looked forward to seeing any post or comments that you give.

Thanks

[Morgane]

Well, I will fully admit I ain't the best Monk out there. I'm an average player... I play more than casually but I don't play everyday. I've played the Monk for two years and I've learned alot. I only have a few Fabled pieces and I've never quite mastered the whole CA timing thing. Having said that, I'm spec'd for DPS and do decent DPS (especially with a dirge in the group) but if I were a group leader and had the choice of a monk for DPS or an Assassin/Ranger/Wizzy, I'd go with one of those instead. Tanking for a Monk, if spec'd correctly and geared up well, is not too bad until you get to the RoK and TSO zones. (I haven't played TSO instances yet but going by the solo play in TSO I'm going to guess that Monks will have a pretty hard time tanking instances there... maybe I'm wrong).

Having said all that, I love my Monk. If I could go back and choose my main, I'd still choose a Monk knowing what I know now. However, it doesn't change the fact that Monks playing in raids and high end instance groups have to play their class exceptionally well. And even then, keeping aggro in a tanking situation is really a challenge. For the casual player who doesn't crunch the numbers and crank everything possible out of their Monk, then pick another class unless you are primarily a soloer. Solo, there is no better class in my opinion.

[Zabjade]

Sorry, headache is making it difficult to read all the paragraphs, I was wondering if I could get someone to give me the bullet version of Monk Isses?

(BTW don't forget Avoidance/Mit problems)