Advice on the Wisdom AA line?

[Kammy]

Right Now I am level 40 and have 42 AA's.  I went AGI all the way down to Sailwind, and then went STR, and have 4 in blackguards luck (i think thats what its called, the one that increases crit %) so far. Anyway, I heard from some people that the Fencer is a very good way to go for solo.I tried to do some searches in the forums for similar posts, but most of the detailed information i found seemed a bit dated.Some people say STR, WIS, some say AGI, WIS, I would like some advice from those who are more versed than myself. I mainly solo, and do very little grouping, and play very casually. Just looking for some help.Thank you in advance.

[Meinen]

unless you can't find 2 really nice weapons, wis aa line is ok...once you hit 80 and acquire 2 really nice weapons, ditch wis and go str.

some people will argue that wis has more dps on long fights and what not. but i have never seen that much difference and never parsed much higher (and rarely did i) when going down the agi/wis vs str/agi. I preferred DW over 1h anyday.

my 2c anyway...

[Caipira]

I tried the wis line last night in SoH, I was running my havoc with 50%crit 75% DA and 200-230 haste.  I was swinging nonstop mixing in my good CA's as their timers came up and did terrible DPS.  Around 1600 for the Malovence/Ire fight whichn is fairly long and straight forward.  I went back and redid AA's back to strength/agi line immediately

[yzyh]

as what I have heard often (since I am fare to be at end game).

 The wis line is nice when you just looted a new 1hander that is from an higher Tier raid lvl then the 2 weapon you do already use. Bcuz your off-hand weapon is not of the same quality fo your new Higher tier weapon. Going wis line and simply use the ubber 1hander is bether.

Again this is what I have been told often but I haven't tested it myself.

But everyone seem to agree that str/ agi or str/ sta is the way to go till the end game at least. ATM I am having a blast soloing ast a str/ agi brigand.

[Meirril]

Ok, the wis line was good for DPS back when there was a difference between 1-handed weapons and duel wield weapons (1 handed could only go in primary slot, and you couldn't duel wield with them. You had to use 2 duel wield weapons to duel wield and they had lower DPS.).

Now that all weapons are 1 handed and can be duel wielded, this line is obsolete. While you almost double your DPS from a single weapon, you get perty much the same effect from your second equipped weapon for no AA cost and get the stat and proc bonuses from the second weapon. So by avoiding the wis line, you get the benifits of a different AA line. Nuff said.

[Klaktar]

I tested this line recently, and with my typical mage group (illu/troub = 35% double attack alone), my dps was almost the same as with 2 weapons (lower by about 300 dps avg.) throughout an entire Kor'Sha raid. Not worth it though, due to extra gains from a second weapon.However, for leveling up, this would be a fine spec to use. Saves money on finding a second weapon, and can provide solid DPS with a low amount of AA.

[duuf]

My 2cp Since I'm on the verge of gettn my epic for my brig buhahahaha this topic interests me because the Havoc is such a better weapon than my soon to be offhand weapon Worm Tooth Blade. So be forewarned math follows and testing will be delayed until I get my greedy pirate hands on my epic.First of all this is a simplified calcualtion concentrating solely on the relative damage ratings of my two weapons as modified by DA.There are a lot of factors that go into DPS but at least this example quantifies one of those factors for me.My two weapons (well soon to be anyway} have DR of 120.9 and 102.1 respectively.Dual Wield modifies those ratios as follows:(120.9 + 102.1) / 1.33 = 167.7Now correct me if I'm wrong but getting the 24 auto attack from freehand and maxn unencumbrance should give 68 double attack for a single weapon.120.9 * 1.68 = 203.1Clearly favors the Havoc single wield.OK in the real virtual world we inhabit, DA comes from all kinds of places so how much external DA pushes DW to the top in this simplified example.DA caps at 100 so the best DA modified DR for the Havoc as a single weapon would be 120.9 *2.0 = 241.8The external DA at that point would be 32 so the dual wield calc would be:(120.9 + 102.1) /1.33 * 1.32 = 221.3Hmm Havoc single wield still ahead so how much external DA is necessary for DW to triumph and the answer is 45: (120.9 + 102.1) /133 * 1.45 = 243.1Again this is a very simplified example intended only to show there is potential in exploring the wisdom line if your primary weapon is markedly superior to your secondary.  I hope to be testing shortly and will report back my findings.Duufus

[goldfeesh641]

Just from experience, I'd say for soloing go STA/AGI lines, the extra HPs and the defense seem to help a lot for me, then again, that may just be my playstyle.

[goldfeesh641]

duuf wrote:

My 2cp Since I'm on the verge of gettn my epic for my brig buhahahaha this topic interests me because the Havoc is such a better weapon than my soon to be offhand weapon Worm Tooth Blade. So be forewarned math follows and testing will be delayed until I get my greedy pirate hands on my epic.First of all this is a simplified calcualtion concentrating solely on the relative damage ratings of my two weapons as modified by DA.There are a lot of factors that go into DPS but at least this example quantifies one of those factors for me.My two weapons (well soon to be anyway} have DR of 120.9 and 102.1 respectively.Dual Wield modifies those ratios as follows:(120.9 + 102.1) / 1.33 = 167.7Now correct me if I'm wrong but getting the 24 auto attack from freehand and maxn unencumbrance should give 68 double attack for a single weapon.120.9 * 1.68 = 203.1Clearly favors the Havoc single wield.OK in the real virtual world we inhabit, DA comes from all kinds of places so how much external DA pushes DW to the top in this simplified example.DA caps at 100 so the best DA modified DR for the Havoc as a single weapon would be 120.9 *2.0 = 241.8The external DA at that point would be 32 so the dual wield calc would be:(120.9 + 102.1) /1.33 * 1.32 = 221.3Hmm Havoc single wield still ahead so how much external DA is necessary for DW to triumph and the answer is 45: (120.9 + 102.1) /133 * 1.45 = 243.1Again this is a very simplified example intended only to show there is potential in exploring the wisdom line if your primary weapon is markedly superior to your secondary.  I hope to be testing shortly and will report back my findings.Duufus

You must also recognize, however, that once you take into account crits, the chances change, I believe (I do not believe you can crit off the second attack's DA).  This may change these numbers, especially with the nice high end that Havoc has on it... (I may be completely wrong about the DA/Crit thing, in which case, welp, there ya have it.)

[Razlath]

goldfeesh641 wrote:

You must also recognize, however, that once you take into account crits, the chances change, I believe (I do not believe you can crit off the second attack's DA).  This may change these numbers, especially with the nice high end that Havoc has on it... (I may be completely wrong about the DA/Crit thing, in which case, welp, there ya have it.)

Actually a really important question.  Can you crit and proc off the second attack in a double attack?  Or is it not considered for crits / procs?

[Jida]

Yes the second weapon can critNo the second weapon can not proc anything but whatever procs are attached to the weapon.DW > 1HANDED unless your really good at timing your auto attacks... I mean REALLY good. And then your losing out on all of the crits on the DW..So you'd have to be flawless IMO.

[Razlath]

Devastatin@Unrest wrote:

Yes the second weapon can critNo the second weapon can not proc anything but whatever procs are attached to the weapon.DW > 1HANDED unless your really good at timing your auto attacks... I mean REALLY good. And then your losing out on all of the crits on the DW..So you'd have to be flawless IMO.

Yeah, I knew that about dual wield.  But was wondering about the second attack from Double Attack.  I may have been unclear on that point.  Can the second attack from Double Attack trigger procs and / or crit?

[duuf]

Its my understanding that the chance for crit  for the second swing on DA is same as the original swing.  While running DA on my dirge (Bards have a similar opportunity in their STA line but the extra DA for single wield is only 44) I have often seen big numbers on both attacks. Not so sure about procs. I will make sure when I start doing my testing.Duufus

[duuf]

Devastatin@Unrest wrote:

DW > 1HANDED unless your really good at timing your auto attacks... I mean REALLY good. And then your losing out on all of the crits on the DW..

As the great Whysprr Wyrd in the Dirge forums so succinctly stated and I paraphrase here: would you dual wield a tin dagger with your best weapon and expect to get better dps over single wielding your best weapon.  With our double attack AA line for single wield at some point if you have a large difference between the capabilities of your two weapons DA/SW may be better. Might be so for me might not thats what the testing will help prove.Duufus

[Razlath]

duuf wrote:

Its my understanding that the chance for crit  for the second swing on DA is same as the original swing.  While running DA on my dirge (Bards have a similar opportunity in their STA line but the extra DA for single wield is only 44) I have often seen big numbers on both attacks. Not so sure about procs. I will make sure when I start doing my testing.Duufus

Something else to keep an eye on is whether they crit independently (assuming both attacks from DA can crit).  If a crit on the first attack auto critted the second, that might make it even more desireable to have more DA instead of DW if your main hand weapon were awesome enough.

[duuf]

 As promised here it is.Last night we ripped VP a new one so tha Havoc is now in my greedy greedy hands.Buhahahaha.Using my stats I have 13 DA dual wield and 81 SW.Pluggin that into my overused formulas from above gives the following:DW (120.9 +102.1) / 1.33 * 1.13 = 189.5SW 120.9 * 1.81 =                       = 218.8    A projected simplistic 15% better performance from Single WieldTha Test:In JW in the White Ladies Icey Temple are those nicely orange 83 single up golem temple sentinals.Pop fast, take bunch of swings to do and most importantly my pally can tank em all nite long.So my Brig hits em with his debuff engages autotattack the pally taunts em off weaponless and we see what tha results are.  25 golems each way.          Melee  Procs  TotalDW     626      63       689SW      700     63       763So pure melee gave me a 12%  increase and when combined with procs gave me a 11% increase. Food for thought me thinks...As a side note I observed my DA in raid last night.  It varied from having only my 13 to  23 with our troub givn me fortissimo to 48 when I got lucky a few times and got IA.   i will be trying out my new weapon both ways in raid to see if I can get a feel for SW v DW.Answer to a couple of other questions from my ACT parses can confirm that each swing of DA has an independent chance to Crit and to Proc.Duufus

[Kammy]

duuf wrote:

 As promised here it is.Last night we ripped VP a new one so tha Havoc is now in my greedy greedy hands.Buhahahaha.Using my stats I have 13 DA dual wield and 81 SW.Pluggin that into my overused formulas from above gives the following:DW (120.9 +102.1) / 1.33 * 1.13 = 189.5SW 120.9 * 1.81 =                       = 218.8    A projected simplistic 15% better performance from Single WieldTha Test:In JW in the White Ladies Icey Temple are those nicely orange 83 single up golem temple sentinals.Pop fast, take bunch of swings to do and most importantly my pally can tank em all nite long.So my Brig hits em with his debuff engages autotattack the pally taunts em off weaponless and we see what tha results are.  25 golems each way.          Melee  Procs  TotalDW     626      63       689SW      700     63       763So pure melee gave me a 12%  increase and when combined with procs gave me a 11% increase. Food for thought me thinks...As a side note I observed my DA in raid last night.  It varied from having only my 13 to  23 with our troub givn me fortissimo to 48 when I got lucky a few times and got IA.   i will be trying out my new weapon both ways in raid to see if I can get a feel for SW v DW.Answer to a couple of other questions from my ACT parses can confirm that each swing of DA has an independent chance to Crit and to Proc.Duufus

Sooooooooo......you are saying that SW is better than DW given a decent Weapon?Good to know.. I now have 50 AA's. Right now, I have 25 in STR, and 24 in AGI. Can someone give me a decent AA build?  please, remember I have 50 AA's to spend, not 70.

[duuf]

Saisyu@Nektulos wrote:

Sooooooooo......you are saying that SW is better than DW given a decent Weapon?Good to know.. I now have 50 AA's. Right now, I have 25 in STR, and 24 in AGI. Can someone give me a decent AA build?  please, remember I have 50 AA's to spend, not 70.

Whether SW with 68 DA is better than DW is the question and all I've tried to do is quantify part of the equation to show that there is the potential for SW>DW if the primary weapon is markedly superior to the secondary.  Even in my simplified example DW triumphs if DA from sources other than freehand and unencumbrance > 44.  As far as your 50 AA Str is a given for most brigs with IMO Walk the Plank and 14% crit being two of our finest abilities.  The other choices should be based on your play style.  If you mostly group Agility is probably the best choice (pirates stab is one of the best procs in the game), If you mostly solo Sta is a good choice for survivablity.Int may be worth the end ability feign death, I used it to do most of the Claymore series and loved it.Duufus

[Jida]

duuf wrote:

 As promised here it is.Last night we ripped VP a new one so tha Havoc is now in my greedy greedy hands.Buhahahaha.Using my stats I have 13 DA dual wield and 81 SW.Pluggin that into my overused formulas from above gives the following:DW (120.9 +102.1) / 1.33 * 1.13 = 189.5SW 120.9 * 1.81 =                       = 218.8    A projected simplistic 15% better performance from Single WieldTha Test:In JW in the White Ladies Icey Temple are those nicely orange 83 single up golem temple sentinals.Pop fast, take bunch of swings to do and most importantly my pally can tank em all nite long.So my Brig hits em with his debuff engages autotattack the pally taunts em off weaponless and we see what tha results are.  25 golems each way.          Melee  Procs  TotalDW     626      63       689SW      700     63       763So pure melee gave me a 12%  increase and when combined with procs gave me a 11% increase. Food for thought me thinks...As a side note I observed my DA in raid last night.  It varied from having only my 13 to  23 with our troub givn me fortissimo to 48 when I got lucky a few times and got IA.   i will be trying out my new weapon both ways in raid to see if I can get a feel for SW v DW.Answer to a couple of other questions from my ACT parses can confirm that each swing of DA has an independent chance to Crit and to Proc.Duufus

Use the training wall in Kunzar Jungle. Repop is REALLY fast. Kill it over and over and you will always have the back once you figure out the side.

[duuf]

Devastatin@Unrest wrote:

Use the training wall in Kunzar Jungle. Repop is REALLY fast. Kill it over and over and you will always have the back once you figure out the side.

Personally I think tha wall is not a good test as it only cons 76 but its probably alright to test melee only. So  heres 10 kills each on it with 11 DA DW and 79DA SW           High      Low      AverageDW    1195       917        1098SW    1336      1069        1220Pretty consistent with my golems with a 11% advantage to SWDuufus