Suggestions and overviews.

[Gholdmoon]

I just had this long time desire since i made my tailor to be able to make Gi's. Then in T8 we finally do get to make Gi's and im so thrilled. However i just wonder if it is at all possible to add Gi recipes to the lower tiers? I love the Gi look and i cant find many Gi options in the lower tiers for my bruiser who is T5 now. I know there are alot more options around T7+ with drops, but id just really would love to see more options in the lower tiers.  I dont know if anyone asked about this before, i just started to coming to the boards recently so i apologize if this isnt a new thing to bring up.

On another note, ive read through two threads that got a little ugly about factions issues with Tradeskillers Vs Adventurers. I had ideas for those but i didnt want to post in the tainted threads so decided to put them along with my Gi suggestion.

I disagree that the factions should be separated. I like how RoK was set up.  We had new cities they hated everyone tradeskiller or adventurer they werent picky. Depending on what you chose to do you built up faction with these cities and now you can frequent the cities with ease. I agree with the tradeskillers that the faction quest grind is tedious and can get very boring. There were awesome suggestions to fix this problem without penalizing adventurer/tradeskill toons. I think these ideas would make both sides happy. Since i do agree with the adventurer/tradeskill toons that forcing them to do faction twice in a city is not fair at all, improving just the tradeskill side in RoK now and future cities is all that is needed.

I loved how the sokokar questline went for the tradeskillers. We didnt just craft items, we crafted items and ran errands. It was very refreshing to do instead of just standing in front of a machine for the duration of the questline. I do believe different quests could be implemented for tradeskillers following same idea as the tradeskiller sokokar questline.

Now to think that every tradeskiller has their harvesting skills maxxed is a bad assumption. My husband and i have been working on every Tradeskill class there is on different toons. Some are adv/tser some are just tsers. I have pure adventurer who is high level and does harvesting for my lower adv tradeskillers. Having high adv level does make it easier to harvest for those long hours it does so obviously i took the beneficial route. Now for all those people who have high tradeskillers but lack the harvesting skill and all other tradeskillers you can implement harvesting quests that have their own special nodes to harvest from that doesnt have a skill cap on them. There are some quests out there like this already for adventurers (in case they didnt find they needed to increase their harvesting skill), so it would be possible to add this type of quest to the faction quest in RoK and future expansions. The faction be awarded as seen fit.

Someone else mentioned errand runs. I love this idea too. Also this gets the tser out from behind a machine. This can be given after you have completed so many faction quests already or by what your faction is at with the city and if they trust you enough with this task. Yes it can get a little hard for lower adv level Tradeskillers but if its no more difficult to get around as the provisions restocking quest then it shouldnt be a big deal at all. The faction would be award as seen fit. (saying this only with the hopes it would be more than the faction quest grind gives but within the appropriateness of the task)

The other thing i thought of is in the form of the two quests types suggested and crafting as well. Once you are a certain faction you can acquire a quest from one of the big wigs of the city. Doing a series of quests for them to gain more faction than the faction quests and ultimately awarded a alot of faction for completing the last one in the series. Since your doing the quests for someone of high importance more faction would be given for these quests.

I feel these suggestions would adequately appease my blues of the current faction grind in RoK ( i focused more here because it was mentioned more) and hopefully appease others as well. The people who benefit are the Tradeskillers and nobody needs to suffer from these changes either. Main point to play this game is to have fun and play how we enjoy ourselves without forcing someone to have to play in a style they dont enjoy.

 Thanks for your time. =)

[TaleraRis]

You say it isn't fair to make adventurer/tradeskillers have to do faction twice in a city for their faction. Is it fair that someone can get a reward for crafting when they never do any crafting at all? Tradeskillers in RoK are limited to 30k faction so that no tradeskiller can get the adventuring rewards at 40k and 50k unless they actually adventure. And everyone says this is how it should be. But adventurer/tradeskillers can get all the benefits of being a crafter without ever having to craft a single thing, and somehow this is okay.If they want to equalize things, then any current implementation with a single faction would have to have full faction available for both adventuring *and* crafting, no cutoffs, and people could decide which way they wanted to gain their faction. I have an 80 weaponsmith on a 72 ranger. Maybe I don't want to have to adventure to gain my adventuring rewards. If they're going to allow one side to completely bypass the content to get a reward, then they need to offer the other side the same option.

[Jrral]

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

You say it isn't fair to make adventurer/tradeskillers have to do faction twice in a city for their faction. Is it fair that someone can get a reward for crafting when they never do any crafting at all?

If the character's T8 in both adventure and tradeskill level, they have to have crafted to get there. You can't get T8 in crafting without crafting to level up. Seems reasonable to me that they get the crafting rewards, having done the work to be of a level to use them. And if they aren't T8 in crafting then they can't scribe the books if they buy them and the books are no-trade so they can't be sold on broker or given to anyone else, only sell them back to the vendor for what they paid for them.

[TaleraRis]

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

You say it isn't fair to make adventurer/tradeskillers have to do faction twice in a city for their faction. Is it fair that someone can get a reward for crafting when they never do any crafting at all?

If the character's T8 in both adventure and tradeskill level, they have to have crafted to get there. You can't get T8 in crafting without crafting to level up. Seems reasonable to me that they get the crafting rewards, having done the work to be of a level to use them. And if they aren't T8 in crafting then they can't scribe the books if they buy them and the books are no-trade so they can't be sold on broker or given to anyone else, only sell them back to the vendor for what they paid for them.

Then you're also saying it's okay that if there's a reward I can get on my high level ranger that's faction gear used in adventuring, I can use her 80 weaponsmith skills to gain the reward without having to adventure at all? I couldn't get to a high level without adventuring, after all, and I've done the work to be of a level to use the gear.

[Lasai]

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Jrral@Unrest wrote:

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

You say it isn't fair to make adventurer/tradeskillers have to do faction twice in a city for their faction. Is it fair that someone can get a reward for crafting when they never do any crafting at all?

If the character's T8 in both adventure and tradeskill level, they have to have crafted to get there. You can't get T8 in crafting without crafting to level up. Seems reasonable to me that they get the crafting rewards, having done the work to be of a level to use them. And if they aren't T8 in crafting then they can't scribe the books if they buy them and the books are no-trade so they can't be sold on broker or given to anyone else, only sell them back to the vendor for what they paid for them.

Then you're also saying it's okay that if there's a reward I can get on my high level ranger that's faction gear used in adventuring, I can use her 80 weaponsmith skills to gain the reward without having to adventure at all? I couldn't get to a high level without adventuring, after all, and I've done the work to be of a level to use the gear.

Um, Yes.  How are you missing the point of general faction?  Of course you can buy adventure awards based on the faction earned by crafting.  Again, the vendors don't care at all how you got that faction.  Should any of these low level adventure crafters level up, they will instantly have a +30k faction boost towards gaining Adventuring items "gasp" NOT EARNED BY ADVENTURING!!  And, it's absolutely fine and fair that they do. 

No vendor selling adventuring gear deducted the faction I gained by doing the TS quests and crafting.  All they cared about was "how much". 

All that needs to be done really is remove the lower faction cap on crafting faction and the whole thing would be equal.

 A crafter can earn the +30k worth of faction for adventure items, an adventurer can earn the faction for crafting recipes.  I don't understand the conniption fits.

It is faction, period, not separate ts or adventure, just faction.  It cuts both ways.  

Wow, I just realized what a lowlife I am.  Not only did I buy recipes with adventure faction, I also bought adventure items with faction gained from crafting.  God, I am a terrible, terrible person.

and to the OP, nice, well presented post, and I agree that items like Gi's need to be brought in at the lower levels, and it would be nice if Druid leather could get 3 stats at the lower levels also instead of just stam wis.

[Gholdmoon]

I dont really want to start an argument here but Lasai i need to apologize to you and everyone else who agrees with the faction split. My husband using Qeynos as a way to show me how it is fair to do that and told me how it can be done got me to see that its basically implemented already and i just misunderstood what everyone meant.

As it stands right now RoK cities have just one faction. I believe Devs wanted to take this opportunity to bring more to TSers and not just end up with another city that was primarily geared towards adventuring like Majdul originally was. I know they added TS stuff outside the factions but i have yet to find out if they have a way for a TSer to gain faction with one of the 3 without having to buy the coins from broker to gain faction in Majdul. In effect, with regards to RoK they just allowed a way for TSers to gain faction with the RoK cities without having to adventure, essentially not turning yourself into a hybrid to enjoy RoK as a TSer. When talk of splitting factions arose, i knowing there is one faction immediately thought they want people to work the SAME faction again just to get the TS stuff? I just thought working the same faction twice was crazy. =)

Using Qeynos to better understand things, i thought it over and even though when you start out in Qeynos you are not Ally with your starting city you just started out with enough faction to allow you to use the perks in the city.  Housing, Fuel Merchants, Brokers, acquiring Writs, General Goods Merchants, Menders and Bankers. But you also dont need to increase your faction with Qeynos to buy things off the City Merchant which is primarily based on Status, Guild Level and Money. So i thought about these Hybrids and their life in Qeynos (or whatever city your from) and just wondered why in the world i forgot this in the first place. No matter your Adventure level, status, or guild level your guild is, you cannot go into Ironforge Exchange and just buy stuff for your Tradeskiller off the Ironforge Exchange Merchant. Hybrids have to use their tradeskiller and work faction up to gain the approval of the tradeskill guild to buy things. If done correctly it should go just the same in new expansions in new cities when they split faction.

It is simple really i can think of two ways it could be done. Taking for instance RoK for an example because RoK had a good start with this just the follow through got a little shaky. The sokokar quests were available for both TSers and Adv this got TSers in good with terens grasp which gave a quest to get you non attackable in Bathezid and Rillis to go in and work the Tradeskill Quests. At this point these quests get people in the city without being killed and i believe my faction was around -39700 after the quest. Then we have the quests like there is now for adventuring and Tsers (more is needed for TSers as i mentioned above). Adventure perks should be on one merchant using maybe the City faction. Then the TS perks on a different merchant with a faction I dont know like Tradeskill Association of Bathezid. (laugh) I think this is what people meant by splitting faction. The only thing i was curious on this was, if adventurers gain faction higher with the city and tradeskillers are gaining faction with Tradeskill Association of Bathezid, how do we decide the banker, mendor, broker, merchants (general and fuel)? Would they both recognize the two factions? Which lead me to the other thought.

The other spin to this would be the amount of faction the oh lets use sokokar quests and the restocking provisions quest as examples again (sorry just the ones im more familiar with) These quests that adv and tsers do to gain footing in a city equally would give enough city faction that everyone can use the perks ( as listed above) in the city and then run off to do two separate factions within the city. So you would have Tradeskill Association of Bathezid and I dont know lets say The Bathezid Militia Guild. Each faction having their own merchants to give out the perks for increasing this faction. Quests for each can be throughout the city much like it is now in bathezid but of course yet again ill mention with more variety with the Tradeskill quests. It would be fair for both sides and nobody can use the other merchant unless they worked the faction like they should for that faction merchant.

Would it be harder on hybrids? No. Just because you chose to do both professions (adv and ts) on the same toon doesnt mean you work harder than someone who levels a TSer on one toon and an Adv on another. It doesnt mean you work harder than the person who has to level up 5-9 Tsers and work faction for them each time the level increases. We each have our own playstyles its the path we choose. This game does an excellent job giving us our freedoms for this and yes it can get hard and it can get difficult but it feels so much more rewarding when you do get it done than if you are to just run right through things. I really do think with alot of planning and patience and using models already set in place the devs who make this game so great can pull off a new city all is kos to and spitting faction to where it feels equal between the two professions.

I know i sound like a broken record with this, but i put 3 TSers through the TS grind of Bathezid so far to get faction to start the Epic and i have yet to get another one to put through it. I would so LOVE if TSers do have other quests to do to increase faction. It would be great if the faction quests had variations of faction rewarded like the adventurers do. While we are on the subject of faction reward, can you do something about the 150 per writ in the main cities(qeynos, freeport, etc)? Either i dont know offer different quests there as well or increase the faction reward per Tier and/or increase that 150 to something a little more that gives a THANK YOU. =)

Thats all i really wanted to say. I saw a different light to this subject and wanted to post it. Thanks for your time guys.

[Oh]

Did we really need YET ANOTHER THREAD on this very topic? I mean really don't we have enough of them?

Anyways to be fair the amount of faction you need to do your TS epic is a drop in the bucket to get enough faction to buy the 20k and 30k faction recipies from all 3 rok factions. Again as was pointed out you made a choice to not level your crafters adventureing level and only level his crafting level this means that based on that choice you have a different path to take to get said faction. Now me personally i have no problem with a crafter getting max (50k) faction with any of the RoK cities. Who cares if you can buy required level 77 equipable epics when your level 10. I sure don't.

Now that being said, I will reiterate what i've said in the other topics. Dominio learned from this experience and will mostlikely next time be creating a seporate faction for the ts stuff versus the adventuring stuff. NOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN it will be any easier mostlikely you will have to grind just as many or MORE WRITS just to get said faction. This will mimic the city factions more. DO I personally think this is a good thing, no, but apparently everyone else thinks this will be just great. All I will do is evaluate my time value versus reward value from doing said writs and then i will make a decision if i will do that or not. As it is now My sage alt WILL NOT be grinding all of those rok factions unless i get really board, and debatly i might not even do the ts epic on him.

[TaleraRis]

Ohiv, the only way that the factions can stay a single faction in the future is if both paths lead to the same reward. Adventuring *and* crafting will need to get you to max faction, not an artificial limitation on one side versus the other, as we have now where crafting will only get you to 30k. If they don't want to make adventuring rewards available by crafting only, then they must separate the factions.

[Oh]

I guess i just don't understand why both need to lead to the same reward? I mean i stated earlier i personally have no problem if the writs allowed a level 10 adventure level 80 crafter access to legendary items that you need to be X level to actually equip. I see no problem with this, which to reparaphrase is saying i have no problem with a crafter getting 50k faction. But i don't understand your point that they HAVE to be the same? why is that? what makes a crafter that isn't an adventure so needy of other things? So there is a cap that prevents the "pure crafter" from getting adventureing rewards. Big whoopie do.

THe normal arguements which is why domino is mostlikely going to have seporate factions in the future is to prevent the whineing of folks cause they have to crank out writs at X amount of faction versus just doing a group run through the quests and getting it done in less time. Note: not going to go into all of the menusha of the other threads it's just a quick pardy of what the complaints are.

[TaleraRis]

Why are you assuming it would only be crafters who couldn't use the items? As I stated before, my 72 ranger is an 80 weaponsmith. There are some faction items that are usable at 75, IIRC, so I wouldn't even need to level all the way up to 80. What if my ranger wanted to get that gear by getting to 50k crafting her way there, and never doing any adventuring at all? If that's not a situation that's okay, that my adventurer gains adventure rewards by doing no adventuring at all, then why is the opposite, where a crafter gains crafting rewards, acceptable? That's the crux of why I say all or nothing in relation to faction. One option has one faction and max faction obtainable by either crafting or adventuring. It allows high level adventurers who are also crafters access to special recipes without crafting, but it also allows high level crafters who are also adventurers access to special gear without adventuring.The other option has special recipes earned by crafting, and special gear earned by adventuring, with separate factions to work up depending on the reward you want. Domino could fix the current issue easily by just letting crafters get to 50k. But for the future, consideration and care should be taken in just how rewards for each side are gained. I personally support the idea of two factions because I think rewards relating to one path should be earned by pursuing that path, and if you want those rewards, then you should put forth that relative effort. But if that isn't an option in the future, then a single faction system has to be fair to both sides of the coin.

[Qandor]

Ohiv wrote:

Did we really need YET ANOTHER THREAD on this very topic? I mean really don't we have enough of them?

Anyways to be fair the amount of faction you need to do your TS epic is a drop in the bucket to get enough faction to buy the 20k and 30k faction recipies from all 3 rok factions. Again as was pointed out you made a choice to not level your crafters adventureing level and only level his crafting level this means that based on that choice you have a different path to take to get said faction. Now me personally i have no problem with a crafter getting max (50k) faction with any of the RoK cities. Who cares if you can buy required level 77 equipable epics when your level 10. I sure don't.

Now that being said, I will reiterate what i've said in the other topics. Dominio learned from this experience and will mostlikely next time be creating a seporate faction for the ts stuff versus the adventuring stuff. NOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN it will be any easier mostlikely you will have to grind just as many or MORE WRITS just to get said faction. This will mimic the city factions more. DO I personally think this is a good thing, no, but apparently everyone else thinks this will be just great. All I will do is evaluate my time value versus reward value from doing said writs and then i will make a decision if i will do that or not. As it is now My sage alt WILL NOT be grinding all of those rok factions unless i get really board, and debatly i might not even do the ts epic on him.

Interesting. Complain about another thread on the topic but you just couldn't let it go. You had to once again state that crafters chose not to adventure and tough for them? So I guess I may as well respond also.

I guess I have to say it again then. If you do crafting and adventuring on the same toon you get a free ride on Kunark faction crafting recipes. However, if you decided to level an adventurer and a crafter on seperate toons you have to do twice the work to get those faction recipes.  So there is an inherent bonus for lumping them both, adventurer and crafter, on one toon that shouldn't be there. The only way to solve this is to have seperate factions for crafting and adventuring.

Allowing crafters to get to 50k faction does not solve this inequity. It still rewards the adventurer/crafter with two sets of rewards for only working one side, while the person who has split the spheres on two toons has to do both. That is a blatantly large penalty for not having leveled both on one toon and nowhere was it ever stated that adventurer/crafters would have such a huge leg up against those who chose to do so on seperate toons or even against just a plain crafter, within the crafting sphere. 

The other issue involved is that crafter only characters must grind writs to compete against those who received their faction recipes gratis, by working the adventure side which they were going to do anyway. The only way to effectively level in Kunark as an adventurer was to do those factions and the adventure rewards alone made them worth doing. They didn't go out of their way one bit to work those factions. Practically everywhere you went in Fens adventuring someone was throwing Rillis faction at you.

If there are 2 rewards and you want both you should have to work for both. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

[Lasai]

Comparing Kunark faction with Ironforge or Coalition faction is not really valid from a lore perspective.  Both the Exchange and the Coalition are more political and economic divisions, as the old Trades Guilds were, than cities at war.  City houses are only interested in what you can do for them, to further thier aims moreso than furthering the needs of thier respective cities, that is why, originally, you earned faction with one and lost faction with the others, and why city faction is a distinct and separate entity still, for all cities, and even adventure faction is split between three distinct houses.  

My Freeport faction is in no way tied to the societies, and gives me access to everything and anything Freeport, from barbers to horses with no cares about craft or adventure, only level and guild level.  Kunark city faction is no different, save for offering recipes, which seems to be the issue for some.  Anyone who has betrayed can tell you what the rewards for city faction are.. A, the Guards don't kill you, and B, You can buy things.  Same exact thing in Kunark, and In fact, City Tradeskill people will happily sell common crafting recipes to you if you have city faction, and they also don't care how you got it.  That is the nature of city faction in this game. (with the exception of MajDul, which has no city faction, only Majdul Citizens and the adversarial courts)

Kunark City faction is not a new concept, it is the same old city faction that has been in game  since day one.  The only real change is quality of items on vendors, and finally an alternate crafting path to earn it.  Otherwise, not much has changed.

The Kunark cities are at war, not involved in internal competition.  The accept help from anyone, in any way, and reward that help without regard.  Splitting the faction into craft and adventure houses like our player city societies do really doesn't fit.  There isn't even separate rewards, just access to vendors that happly sell you items whether you can use them or not, just like Freeport does for me.

That being said, I would support changes that introduce more non-combat quest options, be they delivery, resource procurement, whatever.  I can see merit in the argument that it is a very long grind tied to a crafting table.   I think the positive approach would be to introduce more options to the non combatant of proper crafting level.  These cities at war give favor for help.. any help, and I do think more non combat options would be better than introducing a convoluted TS society structure upon the Kunark cities.

What I will not support is the idea of being forcibly made into a single dimension character.  That is a voluntary choice, and one that I do NOT want forced upon me by arbitrarily deciding that each and every crafter in game is essentially 0 adventure level to pursue general faction recipes.

I had no issue with Domino forcing that in the Epic Quest.  No matter what level you were, the instances were squash you like a bug red.  Was fun.  However, I was after a Master Woodworker reward, not access to a general Riluss vendor carrying multi profession items buyable by any and all with said faction, regardless of means.

Quandor, I don't get your anger, and Im not seeing you asking for reform, but instead for retribution.  You are clearly angry about it, what happened, did you miss some server discos or the initial inflated market?  Is that what drives you to dismiss and belittle adventure crafters?  Whatever the reasons, revenge is not pretty. I admit to being curious as to what is driving your acrimonious, bitter assault on the adventure crafter.

I cannot abide by your constant, slanderous, personal attacks on every crafter that acquired faction by legitimate means.   You made your choice, to limit your character.   If you want change, then ask for change that levels the field time wise for the crafter only, DO NOT force other people to abide by your character development decisions.  I have a 2 dimensional character, Adventure and Crafting at max, and how dare you suggest forcing me into the mold YOU BUILT FOR YOURSELF.

There is positive change. There is OMG NERF (insert whatever here).  Generally enhancing the sector that feels they are behind is a better decision than stripping things away from another.  I support positive steps in future factional issues to even the time grind, enhance the playing experience, and give more variety to the non-adventure crafter.  I would absolutely support craft gained faction not be capped. 

I cannot support any position that strives to strip me of an entire dimension of my character in order to force me into the same playing field as someone who has made a personal decision NOT to pursue a two dimension character.

Faction was set up right in Kunark.  It needs tweaking, but we don't need separate TS and Adventure societies. 

[Oh]

Gwyneth@Najena wrote:

Why are you assuming it would only be crafters who couldn't use the items? As I stated before, my 72 ranger is an 80 weaponsmith. There are some faction items that are usable at 75, IIRC, so I wouldn't even need to level all the way up to 80. What if my ranger wanted to get that gear by getting to 50k crafting her way there, and never doing any adventuring at all? If that's not a situation that's okay, that my adventurer gains adventure rewards by doing no adventuring at all, then why is the opposite, where a crafter gains crafting rewards, acceptable? That's the crux of why I say all or nothing in relation to faction. One option has one faction and max faction obtainable by either crafting or adventuring. It allows high level adventurers who are also crafters access to special recipes without crafting, but it also allows high level crafters who are also adventurers access to special gear without adventuring.The other option has special recipes earned by crafting, and special gear earned by adventuring, with separate factions to work up depending on the reward you want. Domino could fix the current issue easily by just letting crafters get to 50k. But for the future, consideration and care should be taken in just how rewards for each side are gained. I personally support the idea of two factions because I think rewards relating to one path should be earned by pursuing that path, and if you want those rewards, then you should put forth that relative effort. But if that isn't an option in the future, then a single faction system has to be fair to both sides of the coin.

Ehh like i said i'm not really against a crafter getting 50k faction to me it really is a non issue. I just wasn't sure on the "WHY MUST THEY HAVE IT", again i can see your point but i just don't agree and realy no point in going back and forth on the same old. I think the future ideas with seporate factions will fix the issues persay atleast for all of the whineing about it. Unfortunatly I am still not looking forward to having to grind the same or more amount of writs just for some crafting rewards. Really that is the crux that will become very apparent in the next expansion whenever that becomes a reality.

[Oh]

Qandor wrote:

Ohiv wrote:

Did we really need YET ANOTHER THREAD on this very topic? I mean really don't we have enough of them?

Anyways to be fair the amount of faction you need to do your TS epic is a drop in the bucket to get enough faction to buy the 20k and 30k faction recipies from all 3 rok factions. Again as was pointed out you made a choice to not level your crafters adventureing level and only level his crafting level this means that based on that choice you have a different path to take to get said faction. Now me personally i have no problem with a crafter getting max (50k) faction with any of the RoK cities. Who cares if you can buy required level 77 equipable epics when your level 10. I sure don't.

Now that being said, I will reiterate what i've said in the other topics. Dominio learned from this experience and will mostlikely next time be creating a seporate faction for the ts stuff versus the adventuring stuff. NOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN it will be any easier mostlikely you will have to grind just as many or MORE WRITS just to get said faction. This will mimic the city factions more. DO I personally think this is a good thing, no, but apparently everyone else thinks this will be just great. All I will do is evaluate my time value versus reward value from doing said writs and then i will make a decision if i will do that or not. As it is now My sage alt WILL NOT be grinding all of those rok factions unless i get really board, and debatly i might not even do the ts epic on him.

Interesting. Complain about another thread on the topic but you just couldn't let it go. You had to once again state that crafters chose not to adventure and tough for them? So I guess I may as well respond also.

I guess I have to say it again then. If you do crafting and adventuring on the same toon you get a free ride on Kunark faction crafting recipes. However, if you decided to level an adventurer and a crafter on seperate toons you have to do twice the work to get those faction recipes.  So there is an inherent bonus for lumping them both, adventurer and crafter, on one toon that shouldn't be there. The only way to solve this is to have seperate factions for crafting and adventuring.

Allowing crafters to get to 50k faction does not solve this inequity. It still rewards the adventurer/crafter with two sets of rewards for only working one side, while the person who has split the spheres on two toons has to do both. That is a blatantly large penalty for not having leveled both on one toon and nowhere was it ever stated that adventurer/crafters would have such a huge leg up against those who chose to do so on seperate toons or even against just a plain crafter, within the crafting sphere. 

The other issue involved is that crafter only characters must grind writs to compete against those who received their faction recipes gratis, by working the adventure side which they were going to do anyway. The only way to effectively level in Kunark as an adventurer was to do those factions and the adventure rewards alone made them worth doing. They didn't go out of their way one bit to work those factions. Practically everywhere you went in Fens adventuring someone was throwing Rillis faction at you.

If there are 2 rewards and you want both you should have to work for both. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

You are apparently very bitter about the whole thing. Might i suggest just taking a break for a bit. This thread doesn't need to be turned into a rant fest. I was trying to keep away from that happening.

[Mystfit]

**

Dominio learned from this experience and will mostlikely next time be creating a seporate faction for the ts stuff versus the adventuring stuff.

**

Did she? What post did she make that said that she felt it was wrong to have only on faction but two ways (adv and ts) to get there? I missed it.

My lowbie adv is looking foreward to ROK. She ground her way up to 30K for the factions and is looking foreward to having access to the adv goodies the merchants sell while she may stil lget some use out of it. With my adv toon, she wasn't interested in the gear being offered for sale (for the most part) by the time the merchants bothered to sell it to her.  

[Oh]

Mystfit wrote:

**

Dominio learned from this experience and will mostlikely next time be creating a seporate faction for the ts stuff versus the adventuring stuff.

**

Did she? What post did she make that said that she felt it was wrong to have only on faction but two ways (adv and ts) to get there? I missed it.

My lowbie adv is looking foreward to ROK. She ground her way up to 30K for the factions and is looking foreward to having access to the adv goodies the merchants sell while she may stil lget some use out of it. With my adv toon, she wasn't interested in the gear being offered for sale (for the most part) by the time the merchants bothered to sell it to her.  

DominoDev wrote:

Qandor wrote:

Too late now to change this of course. However, I would suggest in the future, were the situation to repeat itself, that crafting faction and adventure faction should be seperate entities. If you want the recipes, you earn them just like all other crafters have to earn them.

This is a valid comment and definitely something that I plan to do in the future.  The current implementation does seem to give more of a boost to adventurer-crafters than expected and lessons learned from RoK will be taken into account in the future.  Also, adding more different faction quests for Kunark in the future is not out of the question, but however (as I'm sure the weaponsmiths and others will tell you) there are other things that should be done first and unfortunately there is limited time in the day/week/month, so I don't know whether this will realistically be possible any time soon considering everything else that also needs doing soon.

This was in one of the rant fest threads. If i was actually any good at linking i would just link directly to the post, but since i am very lame and can't do that here is the quote instead. The thread name is "Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters" and it should be on the first page.

As to the gear, yea i can sympathize with that, by the time i could actually buy it, it was like meh i've got just as good or better gear from other quests.

[Qandor]

Lasai wrote:

Quandor, I don't get your anger, and Im not seeing you asking for reform, but instead for retribution.  You are clearly angry about it, what happened, did you miss some server discos or the initial inflated market?  Is that what drives you to dismiss and belittle adventure crafters?  Whatever the reasons, revenge is not pretty. I admit to being curious as to what is driving your acrimonious, bitter assault on the adventure crafter.

I cannot abide by your constant, slanderous, personal attacks on every crafter that acquired faction by legitimate means.   You made your choice, to limit your character.   If you want change, then ask for change that levels the field time wise for the crafter only, DO NOT force other people to abide by your character development decisions.  I have a 2 dimensional character, Adventure and Crafting at max, and how dare you suggest forcing me into the mold YOU BUILT FOR YOURSELF.

There is positive change. There is OMG NERF (insert whatever here).  Generally enhancing the sector that feels they are behind is a better decision than stripping things away from another.  I support positive steps in future factional issues to even the time grind, enhance the playing experience, and give more variety to the non-adventure crafter.  I would absolutely support craft gained faction not be capped. 

I cannot support any position that strives to strip me of an entire dimension of my character in order to force me into the same playing field as someone who has made a personal decision NOT to pursue a two dimension character.

Faction was set up right in Kunark.  It needs tweaking, but we don't need separate TS and Adventure societies. 

Just quoting the part that apparently refers to me and yes, my name is not quandor, it is Qandor.

Actually I was not angry initially. I got angry when I saw people come here with bogus claims trying to justify their windfall.  When I hear, omg but we had so much risk, or what about our repair bills or what about all the time we spent learning mob strats, it becomes quite obvious that some folks are trying to snow everyone. I am not a person who spent all their time in a crafting instance. I know full well what is involved in the adventuring game. I have three level 80 adventurers. All three of which did the full RoK faction questlines for all the factions even including those not involved in this crafting mess. All three have their hammers  and all three even went so far as to complete the Hunter of the Wastes questline. It was flat out easy to do these questlines and the most efficient way to get from 70 to 80 by far. There was no other real alternative since mob grinding was a non-starter in RoK which has been almost universally acknowledged.

Add to this the fact that the adventure rewards were quite nice and most importantly the rewards were well known and in the game at the release of RoK.

Now let's look at the crafter side. There was talk that faction recipes would be added. What they might be was anyones guess. Would they be worthwhile? All fluff? No one really knew and they were not in the game at the release of RoK. The grind, crafter side was insane. I believe, (correct me if I'm wrong), at release the writs were giving 250 faction per. I'm not sure anyone even knew what the target faction number was that needed to be obtained to get these recipes when they would be put into the game. Relatively soon after release, they upped the faction to 750 per writ but the target was still unknown, as well as the possible rewards. How could crafters even seriously embark on getting this faction the old fashioned way since they had no knowledge of what they were even working towards. Blind faith?

When they finally did add the recipes, which were a mixed bag, boom, the chicken feet and other sundries were flying out the door and they were virtually all being made by adventurer/crafters who had not done a bloody thing except the adventure quest lines which they were going to do anyway. Now the non-adventure crafters could embark on their 279 writs if they found the recipes were worthwhile, and eventually get there I suppose. To the adventurer/crafter it really didn't matter what the recipes were going to be because they had nothing invested in getting to them. They could just sit back and twiddle waiting to see if they were worthwhile or not. If they were, cool beans, lets get right at them. If they were not, no big deal, no time was wasted.

Could this have been any more unfair? Through three years of this game crafters competed against other crafters. It really did not matter whether you adventured or not. Recipes were earned in the same fashion by all crafters. When recipes required mobs drops or dungeon drops, of course, the adventurer/crafter had an edge, as well they should have. They could get to the drops. Non-adventuring crafters had to buy them. That was not a problem and perfectly understandable. However, adventurer/crafters were never handed the whole pie like they were in RoK. They even recieved the recipes for adventuring only.

I never felt prior to RoK that my adventure/crafters had much of an edge over just plain crafters. To me they were crafters like all others. Likewise for my low adventure/max crafters, I never felt they were at a disadvantage. Crafters competed against crafters and adventurers competed against adventurers and that is the way it should be. Let's not forget that the game touted at inception that if you just wanted to primarily craft you could do so. There was no indication that you were going to be a second class crafter by doing so.

Now there you have it as calmly as I can state it.

Now let's get back to you for a moment. I really could care less what you can abide by or not. You refuse to acknowledge the inequity of the situation and I guess that is your right, but do not expect me to sit here and swallow a bunch of BS about what you deserve for lumping a crafter and adventurer on the same toon. You steadfastly want to preserve your current RoK advantage going forward to the detriment of many crafters and I'll be damned if I will remain silent on the issue. If you feel having to participate in both facets of your character to obtain the rewards inherent within each sphere is stripping you of your, apparently, god given right to have a free ride, I say bravo. If you do not want to work for crafting rewards then you can pass them by. If you do want to work for them, you will be there right alongside your fellow crafters on a level playing field.

They made a mistake in the way they set up factions in RoK. A mistake can be forgiven. However, if they repeat this mistake in the next expansion it will be a clear message that there is no place in this game for folks who primarily wish to craft.

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't add - If you want to be a crafter you work for crafting rewards. If you want to be an adventurer you work for adventurer rewards. You should not get both rewards for participating in one.

[Lasai]

Qandor wrote:

Now let's get back to you for a moment. I really could care less what you can abide by or not. You refuse to acknowledge the inequity of the situation and I guess that is your right, but do not expect me to sit here and swallow a bunch of BS about what you deserve for lumping a crafter and adventurer on the same toon. You steadfastly want to preserve your current RoK advantage going forward to the detriment of many crafters and I'll be damned if I will remain silent on the issue. If you feel having to participate in both facets of your character to obtain the rewards inherent within each sphere is stripping you of your, apparently, god given right to have a free ride, I say bravo. If you do not want to work for crafting rewards then you can pass them by. If you do want to work for them, you will be there right alongside your fellow crafters on a level playing field.

They made a mistake in the way they set up factions in RoK. A mistake can be forgiven. However, if they repeat this mistake in the next expansion it will be a clear message that there is no place in this game for folks who primarily wish to craft.

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't add - If you want to be a crafter you work for crafting rewards. If you want to be an adventurer you work for adventurer rewards. You should not get both rewards for participating in one.

The sour grape smell is overwhelming.  Really, you do need a break.

I did all the crafting quests and interspersed faction writs with adventuring prior to any knowledge of Woodworker recipes.  I was in Danak long before my adventure level could be there, by crafting.  I did both, because I am both, and I didn't need a carrot on a stick to craft there, as apparently you did. I craft because I like to, not really needing some shiny new perk or meaningless Coalition bauble or title to do so.   I leveled by producing items for sale and use, not by grinding out pretend products for a pretend customer.  

In fact, by doing both, I got factioned faster in Jarsath and BW than the adventure people in my guild did, so, I managed to cheese the adventure faction purchases too.  Wow, my lack of ethics knows no bounds apparently. 

I am a crafter, have been in every online game I have ever played, and I made server best weaponry in Pre NGE SWG, doing actual one-off unique and customized crafting vs this tinker toy plug and mash button system.

I still believe that enhancing the crafter line would do more to create choices.  That won't work for you tho, no Vendetta or "get even" element.  I guess in your world, fewer choices and fewer options make a better game, huh?

Your most laughable statement is how something like a  mere 9 recipes per class, recipes still attainable by crafting, sends a "Clear Message that there is no room in this game for people who primarily want to craft" if it happens again.  Overstate much?  Apparently, crafting is defined for you by 9 top tier recipes and nothing else.  That is sad. 

Again I have to make a guess that your unfairness crusade is driven more by missed profit opportunity and jealousy than any other motive, and explains the anger.  Here's a clue, crafting is all levels, all products, and this bit of fluff was only frosting on a very big cake.  Too bad you don't see that.  (here is your opportunity to call me a "bottom feeder" again for crafting below t8, yah, you were pleasant in the WS thread too)

Also apparently you are missing the inequity and omg unfairness of city factions rewards.  Doesnt bother me, but, I imagine more AA mirrors sell than my Lore No Trade mounted sharks head does.  Crafting faction is the ONLY city faction that rewards players with items of tradable value, in case you forgot.

The beauty of this game is that is doesn't force a choice.  There are adventure only rewards, Craft only rewards, and god forbid, in this singular case, a temporary advantage gaining faction for being hybrid.  Once the pure crafters catch up, the advantage is gone.  God yes, The sky has fallen.  It is the end of crafting for sure.  Sinners repent, and all that.

BTW, I got server discos on All three Woodworker chromatic recipes thanks to what you term my "free ride".  Hope that salts the wound of your self rightious indignance a bit.

Have a nice day.

[Mystfit]

Thanks O. I never saw the posting. I'm not strong minded enough on the concept to have an opinion either way they do it. I jsut appreciate the attention being piled on us crafters

[Oh]

Mystfit wrote:

Thanks O. I never saw the posting. I'm not strong minded enough on the concept to have an opinion either way they do it. I jsut appreciate the attention being piled on us crafters " width="15" height="15" />

NP, considering how "hostile" these threads get it is VERY easy to miss the real important information. I know me personally i am not likeing the proposed change, but ehh I will see how it pans out when it happens that is really the only way to truely know if it is really a good change or not.

[Lasai]

Ohiv wrote:

Mystfit wrote:

Thanks O. I never saw the posting. I'm not strong minded enough on the concept to have an opinion either way they do it. I jsut appreciate the attention being piled on us crafters " width="15" height="15">

NP, considering how "hostile" these threads get it is VERY easy to miss the real important information. I know me personally i am not likeing the proposed change, but ehh I will see how it pans out when it happens that is really the only way to truely know if it is really a good change or not.

Doesn't take long to get hostile when you innocently play the game, do the quests the game offers you, and get inane diatribe like free ride, "did squat to earn the rewards, "god given right" , get your crafting ethics/commitment questioned, get accused of various and sundry malfeasances and so on for just playing the game SOE gave us in Kunark.

There is a valid point to enhancing the crafting side questlines.  There is no valid point belittling and continually berating people who did the quests as they were presented according to thier capabilities.

Excuse me for being hostile, but I did no wrong.

[Qandor]

Lasai wrote:

Qandor wrote:

Now let's get back to you for a moment. I really could care less what you can abide by or not. You refuse to acknowledge the inequity of the situation and I guess that is your right, but do not expect me to sit here and swallow a bunch of BS about what you deserve for lumping a crafter and adventurer on the same toon. You steadfastly want to preserve your current RoK advantage going forward to the detriment of many crafters and I'll be damned if I will remain silent on the issue. If you feel having to participate in both facets of your character to obtain the rewards inherent within each sphere is stripping you of your, apparently, god given right to have a free ride, I say bravo. If you do not want to work for crafting rewards then you can pass them by. If you do want to work for them, you will be there right alongside your fellow crafters on a level playing field.

They made a mistake in the way they set up factions in RoK. A mistake can be forgiven. However, if they repeat this mistake in the next expansion it will be a clear message that there is no place in this game for folks who primarily wish to craft.

Of course, I would be remiss if I didn't add - If you want to be a crafter you work for crafting rewards. If you want to be an adventurer you work for adventurer rewards. You should not get both rewards for participating in one.

The sour grape smell is overwhelming.  Really, you do need a break.

I did all the crafting quests and interspersed faction writs with adventuring prior to any knowledge of Woodworker recipes.  I was in Danak long before my adventure level could be there, by crafting.  I did both, because I am both, and I didn't need a carrot on a stick to craft there, as apparently you did. I craft because I like to, not really needing some shiny new perk or meaningless Coalition bauble or title to do so.   I leveled by producing items for sale and use, not by grinding out pretend products for a pretend customer.  

In fact, by doing both, I got factioned faster in Jarsath and BW than the adventure people in my guild did, so, I managed to cheese the adventure faction purchases too.  Wow, my lack of ethics knows no bounds apparently. 

I am a crafter, have been in every online game I have ever played, and I made server best weaponry in Pre NGE SWG, doing actual one-off unique and customized crafting vs this tinker toy plug and mash button system.

I still believe that enhancing the crafter line would do more to create choices.  That won't work for you tho, no Vendetta or "get even" element.  I guess in your world, fewer choices and fewer options make a better game, huh?

Your most laughable statement is how something like a  mere 9 recipes per class, recipes still attainable by crafting, sends a "Clear Message that there is no room in this game for people who primarily want to craft" if it happens again.  Overstate much?  Apparently, crafting is defined for you by 9 top tier recipes and nothing else.  That is sad. 

Again I have to make a guess that your unfairness crusade is driven more by missed profit opportunity and jealousy than any other motive, and explains the anger.  Here's a clue, crafting is all levels, all products, and this bit of fluff was only frosting on a very big cake.  Too bad you don't see that.  (here is your opportunity to call me a "bottom feeder" again for crafting below t8, yah, you were pleasant in the WS thread too)

Also apparently you are missing the inequity and omg unfairness of city factions rewards.  Doesnt bother me, but, I imagine more AA mirrors sell than my Lore No Trade mounted sharks head does.  Crafting faction is the ONLY city faction that rewards players with items of tradable value, in case you forgot.

The beauty of this game is that is doesn't force a choice.  There are adventure only rewards, Craft only rewards, and god forbid, in this singular case, a temporary advantage gaining faction for being hybrid.  Once the pure crafters catch up, the advantage is gone.  God yes, The sky has fallen.  It is the end of crafting for sure.  Sinners repent, and all that.

BTW, I got server discos on All three Woodworker chromatic recipes thanks to what you term my "free ride".  Hope that salts the wound of your self rightious indignance a bit.

Have a nice day.

Wow, server discos? I think I saw the bulletin on CNN. Grats on that by the way and thanks for proving my point. If it makes you feel more complete I'm jealous beyond words and that has really, really, ruined my week.

Missed profits? Hardly a factor. I rarely craft for profit these days. Mostly friends and family stuff. However others do and I know it seems odd in this day and age but maybe I'm fighting for them.

You mentioned a temporary advantage, in this "singular" case for hybrids. Yet you continue to espouse that this "temporary" advantage be carried forward for these hybrids in the future. This hybrid is nothing more than someone who worked both spheres on one character as opposed to two characters. They did not accomplish a single thing in excess of what the two character player accomplished.

So anyway, it is now no big deal and you did crafting and adventuring to gain faction in tandem regardless apparently. So why, might I ask, are you so put off by the prospect of having to work crafting faction in the future?

It seems you are accusing me of having a vendetta against adventurer/crafters. If vendetta to you means, seeking an equality between crafters where all achieve goals in like fashion then yes I guess that is my vendetta. Your choice of words speaks volumes in demonstrating just how tenaciously you wish to hang on to the advantage adventure/crafters enjoyed in RoK. I have two 80/80 characters presently and I will not feel oppressed by the fact that they may have to earn crafting rewards by working crafter faction in the future. In fact, I will be pleased that all crafters will be back on even footing once again. If it makes you feel better, please blame any additional effort you are required to make in the future on me. I have big shoulders, I can take it.

However, it is good to see that you finally came to your senses and agree that the sky will not be falling in the future if all crafters compete fairly against each other.

Ah yes, the bottom feeders remark. You are correct I did use the term bottom feeders. I have this odd personality quirk where I feel it is prudent and fair to leave lower level markets for lower level crafters to profit from rather than, as a high level crafter, attempting to take their own market from them. I guess I do not need to have it all as some do. Thank you for pointing out my failings in this regard but I think I will continue to support players on the way up by avoiding participation in the only market lower level crafters have. I will continue to avoid bottom feeding. Did I strike a nerve by the way?

So that about does it I think and thanks for the nice day. I hope you have one as well.

[Illmarr]

he comes at you with his fists, you bring a club

She comes with a club you bring a knife

He brings a knife you bring a gun,

She brings a gun you bring an assault rifle

He brings an assault rifle you bring a tank

She brings a tank you bring a rocket launcher

He brings a rocket launcher you bring a tactical nuke

You keep escalating the personal venom so badly, just nuke this whole debate. You people are so personally into it it's creepy.

[Avanya]

Qandor wrote:

You mentioned a temporary advantage, in this "singular" case for hybrids. Yet you continue to espouse that this "temporary" advantage be carried forward for these hybrids in the future. This hybrid is nothing more than someone who worked both spheres on one character as opposed to two characters. They did not accomplish a single thing in excess of what the two character player accomplished.

Wow, thank you.  I think you've said it best right there.

[Rqron]

Qandor wrote:

Ohiv wrote:

Did we really need YET ANOTHER THREAD on this very topic? I mean really don't we have enough of them?

Anyways to be fair the amount of faction you need to do your TS epic is a drop in the bucket to get enough faction to buy the 20k and 30k faction recipies from all 3 rok factions. Again as was pointed out you made a choice to not level your crafters adventureing level and only level his crafting level this means that based on that choice you have a different path to take to get said faction. Now me personally i have no problem with a crafter getting max (50k) faction with any of the RoK cities. Who cares if you can buy required level 77 equipable epics when your level 10. I sure don't.

Now that being said, I will reiterate what i've said in the other topics. Dominio learned from this experience and will mostlikely next time be creating a seporate faction for the ts stuff versus the adventuring stuff. NOW THIS DOES NOT MEAN it will be any easier mostlikely you will have to grind just as many or MORE WRITS just to get said faction. This will mimic the city factions more. DO I personally think this is a good thing, no, but apparently everyone else thinks this will be just great. All I will do is evaluate my time value versus reward value from doing said writs and then i will make a decision if i will do that or not. As it is now My sage alt WILL NOT be grinding all of those rok factions unless i get really board, and debatly i might not even do the ts epic on him.

Interesting. Complain about another thread on the topic but you just couldn't let it go. You had to once again state that crafters chose not to adventure and tough for them? So I guess I may as well respond also.

I guess I have to say it again then. If you do crafting and adventuring on the same toon you get a free ride on Kunark faction crafting recipes. However, if you decided to level an adventurer and a crafter on seperate toons you have to do twice the work to get those faction recipes.  So there is an inherent bonus for lumping them both, adventurer and crafter, on one toon that shouldn't be there. The only way to solve this is to have seperate factions for crafting and adventuring.

Allowing crafters to get to 50k faction does not solve this inequity. It still rewards the adventurer/crafter with two sets of rewards for only working one side, while the person who has split the spheres on two toons has to do both. That is a blatantly large penalty for not having leveled both on one toon and nowhere was it ever stated that adventurer/crafters would have such a huge leg up against those who chose to do so on seperate toons or even against just a plain crafter, within the crafting sphere. 

The other issue involved is that crafter only characters must grind writs to compete against those who received their faction recipes gratis, by working the adventure side which they were going to do anyway. The only way to effectively level in Kunark as an adventurer was to do those factions and the adventure rewards alone made them worth doing. They didn't go out of their way one bit to work those factions. Practically everywhere you went in Fens adventuring someone was throwing Rillis faction at you.

If there are 2 rewards and you want both you should have to work for both. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

What prevents YOU from doing the same? It is everyones choice to either craft, adventure or do both on a character. I f someone does both then he has done whatever is needed for both and that is fine. If you chose one or the other then its nobody's fault but your own if you now have 2 times the work... This game is great in that it gives everyone choices. But don't complain about your own choices and ask the game to be changed to fit YOUR needs in total disregard to others.J.C.

[Umee]

Locking this thread as it makes me one sad, sad Halfling =/True, these topics have been surfacing rather repeatedly here, but even worse is how this thread has degraded to nothing more than one huge argumentative mess Please keep from the namecalling, insults, jabs and the like in the future.  It's going to take quite a few jumjum pies for me to recover from this thread.